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Enthusiast Resurrects IBM's Legendary 'Model F' Keyboard (popularmechanics.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the changing-keys dept.

An anonymous reader quotes Popular Mechanics: You may not know the Model F by name, but you know it by sound -- the musical thwacking of flippers slapping away. The sound of the '80s office. The IBM Model F greeting the world in 1981 with a good ten pounds of die-cast zinc and keys that crash down on buckling metal springs as they descend. It's a sensation today's clickiest keyboards chase, but will never catch. And now it's coming back. The second coming of the high-quality Model F (not to be confused with its more affordable plastic successor, the Model M) isn't a throwback attention grab from IBM, nor a nostalgia play from Big Keyboard. Instead, it's the longtime work of a historian in love with the retro keyboard's unparalleled sound and feel, but frustrated by the limitations of actual decades-old tech.

The Model F Keyboards project, now taking preorders for the new line of authentic retro-boards, was started by Joe Strandberg, a Cornell University grad who's taken up keyboard wizardry as a nights-and-weekends hobby. He started as a collector and restorer of genuine Model F keyboards -- originally produced from 1981 to 1994 -- a process that familiarized him with their virtues and their flaws... Working with a factory in China, Strandberg has carefully overseen the reproduction process one step at time, from the springs to the unique powder-coating on the keyboard's zinc case. Despite the expense (Strandberg estimates spending $100,000 to revive the tooling necessary for the production run), it was the only viable option given the kind of abuse your average keyboard takes on a daily basis. "With 3D printing," he says, "the keyboard wouldn't last a year."
The first prototypes have just left the assembly line, and he's already racked up over a quarter of a million dollars in pre-orders. Does anyone else fondly remember IBM's hefty and trusty old keyboards?

127 of 184 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Not this again. by nuckfuts · · Score: 2

    Plenty of cherry buckling spring keyboards available at a reasonable price.

    Ya, I'm typing on one now, but it ain't made with "a good 10 pound of die-cast zinc".

  2. Re:Not this again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Plenty of cherry buckling spring keyboards available at a reasonable price.

    Besides...Gateway made the best keyboards back then. Copy target selection failure.

    Comparing Gateway to an original IBM? Are you fucking kidding me?

  3. XT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does it come with an authentic XT connector so I have to use XT>PS/2>USB so I can use it with my modern computer?

    1. Re:XT? by Bigbutt · · Score: 2

      My Model M has a 9 pin din with a connector to PS/2. Fortunately even the motherboard I bought last year still has PS/2 connectors or I'd have to add a PS/2 to USB and a scaffolding to keep things in place :) .

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    2. Re:XT? by darthsilun · · Score: 1

      I'd have to add a PS/2 to USB

      Does that even work?

      I had a bunch of Keytronic Flexpro ergo keyboards that had the XT five pin DIN connector. I used a DIN->PS/2 converter for years with good success. Several times I tried adding a PS/2->USB converter but it never worked for me.

      The Keytronic was decent. I needed it for my RSI. I believe Keytronic were the OEM for Sun's keyboards back in the day, which were decent. My last Flexpro died a few years ago. Now I'm waiting for bloody https://ultimatehackingkeyboar... to deliver the keyboards I ordered from them. They're at least a year past due. :-/

    3. Re: XT? by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      The are PS/2 to USB plugs that require circuitry in the keyboard/mouse

    4. Re:XT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      PS/2 to USB converters are just physical adapters, and were made for mice that could detect which type of socket they were connected to.
      DIN to PS/2 converters are just physical adapters, as the two connections actually had the same electrical spec.

      Of course, no DIN connector era keyboard can output USB communication, as it hadn't been defined yet!

    5. Re:XT? by Megane · · Score: 1

      In my experience, an "authentic" Model M has an RJ-style connector with the clips on the side instead of the top. Back in the day I got quite a few of both AT and PS/2 cables for them. The AT connector just needs a simple dongle adapter to PS/2. And of course they have no Windows keys.

      But I'd rather just replace its controller board with a micontroller to make a USB version.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    6. Re:XT? by tsa · · Score: 1

      I connected a keyboard to my little iMac that way because I hated the keyboard that came with it.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    7. Re:XT? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      USB to PS/2 adapters are a mess.

      First there are the passive adapters. These will only work if the keyboard actually supports USB but comes with a PS/2 plug. You can usually identify these because they only have one PS/2 socket.

      Then there are active adapters which nearly always have two PS/2 sockets. In theory a well-engineered active adapter should work with any PS/2 perhiperal or AT keyboard (the AT and PS/2 keyboards used the same protocol but a different connector). In practice I have found them hit and miss at least when used with KVM switches (I am not an old keyboard fetishist so I don't know how well they work with those). I found the Startech ones better then the no-name generics but they still seem to go crazy from time to time.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  4. Selectric by turkeydance · · Score: 3, Insightful

    long live Selectric!

  5. Ever taken one apart? by mschuyler · · Score: 3, Funny

    I figured I would do that to "clean" it. About 500 parts sprung out. I never got it back together again.

    --
    How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
  6. Aaand they are already slashdotted... by mellon · · Score: 1

    Impressive—this article hasn't been up very long. You can look at the web site, but the order page is the sad.

    1. Re:Aaand they are already slashdotted... by Known+Nutter · · Score: 4, Informative

      I can't remember having seen a site slashdotted in a long time....

      I finally just got the order page up. Prices start at $325. No thanks.

      --
      Beware of the Leopard.
    2. Re:Aaand they are already slashdotted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      What? That's barely more than the list price in 1981. Considering that the original was $670 in 2017-dollars, you're actually getting it at half-price!

      And if you think about it as something you can pass down to your children and grandchildren (like a cast iron skillet), the cost ends up being less than $1 per month.

      dom

    3. Re:Aaand they are already slashdotted... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I can't remember having seen a site slashdotted in a long time....

        I finally just got the order page up. Prices start at $325. No thanks.

      The site probably still ran on 1995 hardware.

  7. How is this better than a Model M? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 5, Informative

    Unicomp has been making brand new Model Ms for years, using the same tooling that was originally used by IBM to make them.

    What makes the Model F better, other than the historical angle? And if it's just the historical reasons, why bother with a $300 remake instead of the real thing, when you can just buy a new Model M from Unicomp for a lot less money and get the same feel with identical inauthenticity?

    If you're confused reading this, welcome to the club. :)

    1. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's made out of metal.

    2. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Model M is buckling spring over a membrane. The Model F is buckling spring over a capacitive PCB. The F is a far more complex design, it's lighter to type, has a louder sound, full n-key rollover, and is much more durable.

      Crazy to think the Model M is the "cheap" solution, huh?

    3. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by Misagon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Some connoisseurs find that the Model F's mechanism has a somewhat nicer feel than the Model M's.
      Because the sensing is capacitive and not using a measly membrane, the mechanism is more durable and allows for N-key rollover.

      Also, Unicomp does not make the Model M in a compact form factor (relatively speaking). IBM used to have a Space-Saving Keyboard back in the day, but vintage "SSK"s on the second-hand market are quite sought-after and therefore pricey.

      The build-quality of the buckling spring keyboards has also gradually gone down throughout the years. The Model F keyboards of old had case parts of parts of metal. Even the first Model M keyboards weight about half a kg (about a lb) more than those Model M keyboards made by Unicomp (and the last IBM-branded ones before that).

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    4. Re: How is this better than a Model M? by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      The only problem with Unicomp is the pointer stick... not quite a genuine Trackpoint (springier w/more travel than the original M2), but with the same flawed pointer-stick button design that wears out in a few years & eventually dies.

      I actually own two genuine Model M2 keyboards (a M, with pointer stick). The keyboards are fine, but the Trackpoint buttons died years ago... and apparently, it's NOT an easy repair.

    5. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by pem · · Score: 5, Funny

      Louder sound? That's what I'm looking for! My co-workers will be so happy to hear I'm replacing my Model M!

    6. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by cfalcon · · Score: 2

      > full n-key rollover

      It's like fucking impossible to get this working these days. I couldn't find a mobo that met my needs AND had a PS2 port, and in *practice*, N-key rollover is never supported in USB. Frustrating. My keyboard supports it, but that isn't enough without a PS2 port.

    7. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      The Das Keyboard got Nkey to work over USB. From my understanding it connects as multiple keyboards as to keep that feature.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    8. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by Guspaz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unicomp keyboards have a pretty terrible build quality, and I speak as somebody who is typing this on a Unicomp ultra classic. The molding is terrible, with sharp flashing all over the place and on most keycaps. I had to spend a bunch of time with an xacto knife trimming off flashing to make the thing presentable (and to make it stop scratching me). The top plate of the keyboard also doesn't fit tightly to the bottom half, so the thing creaks if you press on the top plate.

      Overall, it's a nice typing experience, but they're severely overpriced for the very poor level of quality on offer.

    9. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by fredex · · Score: 1

      I used to use an XT keyboard. When the AT came out I played with one a little and noted to myself that the keyboard didn't feel as nice.

      still, the At keyboard beats heck out of any modern membrane keyboard. and better than my cherry-mx keyboard too, though it also beats heck out of any membrane keyboard.

      I used to have some Northgate keyboards, and regret having ever disposed of them.

    10. Re:How is this better than a Model M? by Megane · · Score: 1

      The standard HID configuration for keyboards (the one that works with BIOS at boot time) has one byte of 8 modifier keys, plus 6 bytes for other keys. This limit comes from the "slow" 1.5Mbit speed of USB only allowing 8 bytes of data in a transaction. (I can't remember right now what the other byte is.) There are no key up or key down events, just a list of currently pressed keys. Anything beyond that requires the host to use a new HID configuration with a larger data response, and presumably needs the 12Mbit speed as well.

      The idea in the previous reply about pretending to be multiple keyboards (probably as a composite device) sounds like an interesting new approach to the problem.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    11. Re: How is this better than a Model M? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      The entire front of the monitor was covered in post-it notes.

      So "Windows compatible" then.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  8. Re:Not this again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Besides...Gateway made the best keyboards back then.

    Yeah, right.

    What's next, will you try to claim that a tool from Harbor Freight is better than a Snap-On tool ?

    One thing Slashdot always does is bring the idiots out of the woodwork. And yes, I am calling you an idiot, Mister HornWumpus.

  9. Stack of 'Em by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 2

    I have a stack of the original IBM XT keyboards in the storeroom. They are PC-XT, so will not work on newer ('286 and up) machines. And they are 83 key so do not have the number pad. They mate up nice to the stack of original PC-XT machines in the same room. ( no XT clones allowed, though there is a stack of salvaged clone motherboards.)

    1. Re:Stack of 'Em by Misagon · · Score: 1

      Oh, those without number pads are actually more sought after than the common type that do have them. If you could persuade your manager to let you have them ... *wink* *wink*.

      ... and there is firmware and build instructions freely available for building adapters from XT protocol to USB.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    2. Re:Stack of 'Em by rnturn · · Score: 1

      I've got one with the XT connector. Glad to hear there are conversion plans out there for USB. The old XT-to-PS/2 adapters are a PITB.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  10. Re:Not this again. by PIBM · · Score: 5, Funny

    Shipping it in a box, in a Styrofoam padding?? WTF, if it can't be shipped straight up, that's not a model F.

  11. It's okay for your one-person office by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But I'm old enough to remember being in a computing lab filled with clicky keyboards back then. Heck, I remember how a room filled with typewriters sounded.

    I'll take today's quiet keyboards, thank you very much.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by ZorinLynx · · Score: 4, Informative

      The IBM Model F and M were specifically designed to mimic the feel and sound of IBM Selectric typewriters, since those were pretty much THE STANDARD for typewriters in offices at the time.

      This way when employees would move from their Selectric to a computer, the keyboard would have a familiar feel and sound.

      So yeah, the wonderful feel of these keyboards goes back to the 1960s when IBM perfected the Selectric.

    2. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Cherry MX series switches come in four basic types. One, I forget which, has a nice clicky feel but is also very quiet. A variety of keyboards use them and some aren't that expensive.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by DogDude · · Score: 2

      I couldn't disagree more. It was wonderful white noise.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    4. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by Chrontius · · Score: 2

      Cherry Brown.

      Matias also makes an Alps-alike that has similar properties.

    5. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Thanks. You are right, they keyboard I have now is MX Brown switches. Feels good and the sound is quiet but just audible enough for a little feedback in a quiet room.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      My junior-high typing class - where I learned how to type properly - had a mix of Selectrics and mechanical typewriters, while my folks had some portable mechanical made by Royal (IIRC - I can recall the plastic case/cover, anyway). I can remember the frustration with those manual typewriters - getting two or more different letters' strike bars jammed together, having to carefully reposition the paper when you needed to correct a typo you didn't immediately notice, replacing the ink ribbons (or having the ribbons come out of the guides)...

      The Selectrics took some getting used to, but were definitely nicer to type on once you adjusted. They were still subject to some of the aforementioned issues, though.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    7. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by antdude · · Score: 2

      At my former employer, my cubicle neighbors hated my loud and fast typings on clicky Dell keyboards (not even Model M and F types)! They were mostly females too! :/ I even made a poll and posted their comments in my http://aqfl.net/node/5825 ... ;)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    8. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I once dated a woman who occasionally out-typed her Selectric at work. Her hands were amazing.

    9. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I like how you got four respondents who chose one of the "I don't use keyboards" options. There aren't that many jobs where a person won't at least occasionally need to use a keyboard (even if it's just to log one's hours).

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    10. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The cherry brown is the quiet tactical switch. I have it for my keyboard. It still makes a lot of noise, far more then the membrane. But I think it is because I still haven't learned to type lightly.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re: It's okay for your one-person office by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      My JH typing class had a mix of mechanical and ps/1 (monitor and computer combo).

    12. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      But I'm old enough to remember being in a computing lab filled with clicky keyboards back then. Heck, I remember how a room filled with typewriters sounded.

      I'll take today's quiet keyboards, thank you very much.

      They make quiet mechanical keyboards - Cherry seems to have taken things to heart and have a line of quiet and noisy switches. I have a Logitech one using Cherry MX Browns and it's not as loud. Sure I can make it loud, but it's a lot quieter. Not as quiet as membrane/dome keyboards, but a LOT quieter.

      At least, OSHA wouldn't have to come around and force your office to pick up ear defenders for everyone.

      I have to admit, after work got me my mechanical keyboard, I rather enjoy them. It's not a model M by far, but it's a nice experience.

    13. Re:It's okay for your one-person office by dindi · · Score: 1

      MS mouse and MS keyboard quality was indeed pretty good.

      I am using the Kinesis Advantage and it rocks. I was looking at the Maxim, but AFAIK it is rubber dome and I went through those 1-2 a year.

      I actually replaced the brown MX to blue MX in one of my Advantages. Super CLICKY :)

  12. Modem F / M Comparison Chart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    1. Re:Modem F / M Comparison Chart by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      Man... only a 2 key rollover on the Model M - that would be of no use whatsoever for me today.

    2. Re:Modem F / M Comparison Chart by Megane · · Score: 1

      If true, the reason is likely a lack of diodes in the matrix to prevent ghosting. Diodes are required for true N-key rollover, but it should be possible to have pseudo-N-key rollover by allowing any number of keys from the same row or column, and stop generating keypresses when a ghost happens. (Modifier keys are usually on their own inputs to keep them out of the matrix.)

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  13. IBM Model M Keyboard by Andrew+Lindh · · Score: 2

    I'm sill using an original 1990's IBM Model M (PS2 style) every day. I've changed OS and computers over the decades but not the keyboard. I have to take it apart every few years and clean out the stuff from under the keys. It may be the reduced cost version of the Model F but it's still a usable, sturdy, and reliable keyboard.

    1. Re:IBM Model M Keyboard by ZorinLynx · · Score: 1

      Same here. Been using an IBM Model M since 1999. Sadly not the same M, as the keyboard decoder died in my last one, but when I got the keyboards in the late 90s I decided to snatch up a few spares because I knew they'd become harder to find with time.

  14. Re: Not this again. by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 4, Funny

    You're just mad because your Mac Pro doesn't have a PS/2 port on it.

  15. Shut Up... by Shuh · · Score: 2

    ... And Take My Money!

    1. Re:Shut Up... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      With that price, he'll be taking ALL of your money.

  16. Re: Not this again. by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 5, Funny

    Without padding and a box it is a hazard to the other items in the shipping center.

  17. But, Why??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are way better keyboard projects. Qwerty, staggered keyboards are a terrible reminiscent of mechanical typewriters.

    Columnar keyboards like Ergodox, and derivatives like Ergodox ez, Keyboard.io and multipxd are eons ahead on ergonomics.

    About key layout: Qwerty Dvorak Colemak Workman. Any day.

    IBM model F switches are great. but please, use them in a proper, modern keyboard form factor and key layout.

    1. Re:But, Why??? by xforce · · Score: 1

      Workman > Colemak > Dvorak > Qwerty

  18. You Have Got To Be Kidding Me by WindowsStar · · Score: 2

    Really!! I mean Really!!! I just cleaned out my storage unit a few months back that had stuff in it for 20 years. I just tossed 50 of the original IBM keyboards because no one wanted them, Some of them with such light use they still had the original box. Posted them on eBay and Craigslist for months no-one wanted them. Now everyone wants one. WTH!!

    1. Re:You Have Got To Be Kidding Me by Misagon · · Score: 1

      Was it really Model M or Model F keyboards, and did you sell them for a reasonable price?

      Too often on eBay I see sellers trying to sell some vintage but crap rubber dome keyboard for much more than it is worth. I recon that they must have seen some real collectors' item sell for a lot and not recognised what made that one more special.
      And yes, different markets are different and prices fluctuate. In the US, the going price was around $30 for a regular Model M a few years ago, but over here in Sweden the going price has been up to $180 recently.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    2. Re:You Have Got To Be Kidding Me by vovin · · Score: 2

      My impression is that http://clickykeyboards.com/ would have taken them off your hands and listed them as well.

      Real shame that ...

  19. Re:Not this again. by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 2

    Model Ms have always been my fave but typing on Cherry Blues right now and all is well.

  20. Re:Not this again. by Misagon · · Score: 2

    Cherry's clicky switches do not use buckling springs. They have a much inferior tactile feel (and less of a sound as well).

    --
    "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
  21. Re:$300-400... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    Because $10 keyboards are crap.

    - They don't have the right feel for the weight of the keys
    - It feels cheap
    - Is the spacing in between keys correct?
    - Is it going to last? Stop filling up our landfills with cheap garbage.
    - Did I mention it feels CHEAP?
    - Do they have the raised ridges on the F and J keys?

    You can pry my Logitech Illuminated Thin Keyboard K740 from my cold, dead hands but I can understand someone wanting a _quality_ keyboard.

  22. Re:Not this again. by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    How do they compare to the ~ $150 WASD mechanical keyboards?

    http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/i...

  23. You asked in the wrong place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you had posted them on Deskthority or /r/mechmarket, where the serious keyboard-nerds hang out, I suspect you would have seen different results.

  24. Call me when you have beam springs by niks42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Buckling springs were a cost reduction over the ultimate keyboard design - which was Keyboard D and associated. Those were the "beam spring" keyboards that shipped with the IBM 3278, IBM 3279 and so on. Absolutely fantastic keyboards, wonderful touch, a near perfect force/displacement profile. They were quiet - so quiet, we had to put an electric clicker into the keyboards, software selectable so typists could hear the keystrokes.

    I had one for years and years. I had an interface that supplied it with the +8.5v, +5vand -2.2v it needed, took its parallel output and mapped it to an ASCII symbol set. I had one wired to a 6809 Forth machine for a few years, but it fell into disrepair when the IBM PC arrived, and suddenly I had a C compiler to code with.

  25. If I'm spending that kind of money on a keyboard.. by mark-t · · Score: 2

    ... then I'm going to want to have a clear rubber covering on it that can to protect it from things like accidental spills, even while using it (my roommate back in the day always referred to the one I had at the time as a keyboard condom). Back then, there were just the two styles of keyboard, either XT or extended XT style, and you could get a cover for either one. If something spills on it, you just wipe it with a damp cloth and you're done, or if it gets really bad you peel it off and wash it As far as I know they don't make those anymore because there's too many styles of keyboards now.

    --
    File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
  26. /. Effect in Effect by Shuh · · Score: 1

    The original site is unresponsive.

    1. Re:/. Effect in Effect by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      The /. effect affects my reading experience so as to effect a negative affect on my mind.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  27. and if I could find an APL one as well ... by niks42 · · Score: 1

    .. I would be delighted!

  28. Clackity Clack by mlookaba · · Score: 1

    I love the tactile feedback of a great mechanical keyboard. At home and at work, when I'm typing, people know it. My poor office mate wears headphones most of the time, but he tells me "I can tell when you're inspired, because the noise level goes up significantly".

  29. M and F tactile difference? by DogDude · · Score: 1

    Anybody know if there's any kind of tactical feel/sound difference between the M and the F? I don't remember, specifically.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:M and F tactile difference? by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      I read the F is lighter, even though it is louder.

      --
      Circumcision is child abuse.
  30. retro-Hipster-Fad by williamyf · · Score: 2

    I used a Model F early in my career (@ 16 and 17 YO), then I moved to a Model M.

    Almost no difference.

    This is a pure retro/hipster/fad thing.

    Get a good modern Keyboard, where you get a good backlight, lightweight, and good mechanical (for your taste) key feedback, with modern set of keys and macro-recording, and you will be much better served than reliving the days of yore...

    my 2 cents YMMV

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
    1. Re:retro-Hipster-Fad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Its not a retro hipster fad. The idea originated in the keyboard/enthusiast collector community which arose when manufactures when to cheap rubber dome of membrane to save costs on commodity computers in the early 2000;s. Collectors of anything only make sense to others that collect the same thing. There has been a recent resurgence of interest in "mechanical":keyboard driven by the gaming community, but there is one slight crossover between the new mechanical "fad" and the older ethusiast/collector communities.

    2. Re:retro-Hipster-Fad by williamyf · · Score: 2

      The idea originated in the keyboard/enthusiast collector community which arose when manufactures when to cheap rubber dome of membrane to save costs on commodity computers in the early 2000;s. Collectors of anything only make sense to others that collect the same thing.

      I have two model-m keyboards myself. Even flew one of them from Venezuela to spain (in my lugagge, where every pound counted) during my MBA in 2006. I used it consistently at work AND at home (that's why I've got two) from 1992 until 2009, when I got my first Mac and needed the Command-Key.

      So no worries, I understand collecting keyborads, and I unstestand mechanical feel, as I also hate rubber/membrane/dome type keyboards. And I'll also say that the clacking of the keys helps me concentrate...

      But this is 2017. Get your cherry-mx switch type keyboards with modern layout, macro-recording, back-light and all the bells and whistles...

      Or, if push comes to shove, a model M from omnicomp, mechanicaly equivalent to a model M (even made with the same tooling), but with USB, Extra Windows Key and a nipple mouse!

      But, at this point (2017) rehashing/remaking the model F from scratch? That's just retro/hipster/fad

      --
      *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
    3. Re:retro-Hipster-Fad by guises · · Score: 1

      Been using a Model M for a long time, for some reason I've never heard of the F until now. Maybe the feel is slightly different, maybe it isn't, as long as it's close I don't care about that. What I do care about is the N-key rollover. If you've ever done much gaming on a Model M, you have experienced this problem. An M-like keyboard with N-key rollover would be a godsend.

      That said, it's the M15 that's the real prize. I wonder if this guy could be talked into doing F-style internals with an M15-style ergonomic form-factor.

    4. Re:retro-Hipster-Fad by rvw14 · · Score: 1

      Put the F keys on the left where God intended them to be! Can't use my Wordperfect keyboard template with the F keys on top.

  31. Re:$300-400... by Bigbutt · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've had $10 keyboards. Heck, I have a $100 Mac keyboard. The feel isn't the same. When I'm typing on one of my Model M's, I know what I'm typing is getting through. With the squishy keyboards, I keep having to backspace because I'm missing a letter, which sucks when I'm on a unix box typing in commands (which I do most of the day).

    I've had my Model M since 89 and it still works great (I'm on it now). Work has provided Dell keyboards, Mac keyboards, and various other brand and non-name brand keyboards. Just nothing works like the IBM I have, to the point that I bought a second one just on case :)

    [John]

    --
    Shit better not happen!
  32. Re: Not this again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Cherry MX switches are NOT buckling spring. They are mechanical but not the same mechanism at all.

  33. Re:Not this again. by chill · · Score: 4, Informative

    Gateway? I think you misspelled "Northgate". The Omnikey Ultra was my all time favorite.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  34. Yep. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    I had one with my IBM PC-1. When I upgraded it to a 6MHz AT clone, and I had to use an AT keyboard, I thought I'd open it up and see why it sounded so interesting. Too bad, because I used to use it with my GRiDPad 1910, which a friend hacked a full size XT keyboard connector into for me.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  35. I say this in every keyboard thread by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    but I'd kill for the Microsoft natural layout with clicky keys. I've tried those split keyboards but they don't slant the keys at an angle so they're a mess.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:I say this in every keyboard thread by ItsJustAPseudonym · · Score: 1

      This guy posted a nice little tenting system made out of craft foam sheets:
      https://www.reddit.com/r/Mecha...
      http://imgur.com/a/7hhgx

      I ended up designing one like it for my own split keyboard. Works great, feels great. Just don't spill soda on it.

      I'm also a fan of the Microsoft Natural layout. I got one back in 1994 that lasted for 15 years before the keys began malfunctioning, and I had to throw it out, sadly.

    2. Re:I say this in every keyboard thread by guises · · Score: 1

      You're talking about a Model M15. And yes, you're not the only one who would like one of those. You can try ebay, but expect to pay $800+ - they are rare and highly sought after.

      If this guy would do the F internals with the M15 form factor, I'd be completely sold.

  36. Re:Not this again. by rdelsambuco · · Score: 1

    NO NO NO NO NO. You get what you pay for! Always! What's the point of having more money if you can't get better things for more of it?!!!

    --
    I comment occasionally so that I can mod others -1 overrated or -1 offtopic.
  37. Re:Not this again. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    I've been using Model "M"'s from Unicomp for awhile and have been happy with them.

    I'm trying to find out the difference betweent he F and the M....?

    What are the defining differences?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  38. Re:Ahh, typewriters by shoor · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I learned to type on mechanical typewriters. I had a clerical rating in the Navy and, during my training days, we'd spend an hour a day in a room full of old, beat up Underwoods, practicing. I remember one of my early jobs as a computer programmer, I would be working at a computer keyboard in an office cubicle with the 5 foot dividers, and people on the other side of the room could hear me pounding away.

    --
    In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
  39. Re:Not this again. by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    The WASD keyboards use a cherry switch, as do most mechanical keyboards. The ones in question recreate the buckling spring.

    Personally, I really like the cherry switches, but I get if someone wants them springs back.

  40. Re:Not this again. by CMECC · · Score: 1

    Gateway? I think you misspelled "Northgate". The Omnikey Ultra was my all time favorite.

    I completely agree. I own both the Northgate and several Model M's, and the Northgate Omnikey Ultra is worlds better than the IBM or Gateway keyboards.

  41. Re: Not this again. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Elfen Lied. The lab experiment burnt money to keep warm because they weren't told the connection between the paper and what the food vendor wanted.

  42. Re:$300-400... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    > Do they have the raised ridges on the F and J keys?

    Fuck those things. I want to be able to remap the keys to Dvorak, like a sane person.

    WASD keyboards will sell you ones with the ridges on U and H, at least.

  43. Cherry MX Blues are good enough for me by movdqa · · Score: 1

    I love the clicky keys and I've used the old IBM PC keyboards in the past. They are nice but I think that the old heavyweights are a little too much.

  44. Re: Not this again. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    She, she, the nonhuman was a she.

  45. Re:Not this again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have used a manual typewriter and while they require quite a bit of force to type, they also have a "give in" factor, whereby your finger is cushioned when the key is at the bottom-most point -- so it's comfortable.

    No such thing in a computer keyboard, where you face some resistance initially, then suddenly the resistance is gone, and your finger moves with some speed until it comes to a stop suddenly as key cap reaches the bottom -- very uncomfortable.

  46. Re: Northgate by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Remember reading John C. Dvorak, the Jim Sterling of his day rave about them.

  47. Re:Not this again. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Cherry mechanicals certainly beat your basic rubber domes; and have become conveniently widely available; but they are a completely different type of keyswitch than used in either the model F or model M. Given the price, you'd really, really, have to care; but the differences aren't confined to a more industrial enclosure.

  48. Evil Popular Mechanics site. by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1

    I'm not ever going to see anything at popularmechanics.com, because they pop a "We refuse to show you a damn thing because you are blocking ads" page.

    Lies. I do not block ads.

    I block scripts.

    I'll see every ad you feel like blasting at me If. They. Are. Not. Scripts.

    But I'm not allowing every random malware creator on the planet who buys an ad slot on some random ad server to infect my PC. Period.

    popularmechanics.com is dead to me.

  49. Keycap printing by fnj · · Score: 2

    Dye sublimation is better than just simple-minded surface printing (which is utterly unacceptable), but double-shot injection molding is preferred. Too bad they did not make the right choice. Big black mark.

  50. Don't miss those keyboards really by halsathome · · Score: 1

    If I remember my dads old IBM PC XT keyboard right, it must have been the model M. Key-travel too far and springs too hard for my taste. Nice bounce and the metal feel was great though. Don't need the sound but the feel of the snap when the key goes in was good. I would not think you could get shorter key travel with the model M technology, so I' can't say I miss those. That might be me trying to justify shipping the rig to recycling twenty years ago ...

  51. Re: Not this again. by murdocj · · Score: 1

    Or I could put the paper currency in my woodstove and heat myself with it in winter.

  52. Re:Not this again. by murdocj · · Score: 1

    My typing class you got some times (like a week) on the mechanical, then a week on the electric, then back to the mechanical, etc. Was so lovely when you were on the electric.

  53. Re: Northgate by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

    So, would that be him writing about "Dvorak's keyboard"?

  54. Re:Not this again. by jcr · · Score: 2

    Gateway made the best keyboards back then.

    Nope. The keyboards that Honeywell-Microswitch made for HP's terminals were the best, no contest.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  55. Model F keyboard by fredex · · Score: 1

    But none of the proposed layouts have the F-keys. doesn't anyone other than me think that's a non-feature?

  56. Re:Not this again. by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm trying to find out the difference betweent he F and the M....?

    I've been having some trouble with that lately too. Back when I was in school the one with a penis was the M and the one with the vagina was the F. But apparently it's a little more complicated than that now. ;-)

  57. For the price, include a USB hub. by willy_me · · Score: 1

    The ability to plug in a USB drive or USB wireless transceiver for a mouse is very convenient. I would have added $10 to the price and added a couple of USB ports on the side / back of the keyboard.

  58. Re:Not this again. by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

    Agreed. I have several including this glorious OmniKey Ultra. I love a keyboard with the frickin CONTROL key where God intended it to be. What I really need is a way to connect the ancient 5-pin DIN to something more recent.

    --
    The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
  59. Happy to see people care for keyboards by dindi · · Score: 1

    I am typing on a Kinesis Advantage. I have too. My favourite started to fail. Keypresssss reeeepeeeats and other issues. So I went ahead and un-soldered all the brown stem MX keys and replaced them by blue stem MX keys.

    Now they click.

    I also built an Ergodox with blue ckickies. Which is a nice project. Thru hole and SMD practice.

    Which brings me to my point: clickies are cool. Heavy keyboards are cool. Slim, compact keyboards are cool.

    But if you are typing on the staggered design that was designed to a 150cm tall woman, then you are ... I am tempted to say: doing it wrong, but I won't.

    Getting used to a Kinesis Advantage is a royal giant pain in the butt. It literally hurts your brain. Typing stuff (text) is kind of OK, but writing code makes you want to kill yourself. For a week or so. ... then the magic happens, and you realise, that nothing can touch it. Replaceable switches. Curved key-wells. Programmable.

    When people ask me how I spend $300 on a keyboard, $100 on keys, then hours and hours in labour to replace the keys. I always ask them how they spend $30.000+ for a car they use less than 8 hours a WEEK. I am using this 10-12 hours a day.

    BTW, I went through $100 Apple keyboards, 1-2 a year. Un-repairable.

    Anyway. While I find the Type M, and Type F really-really cool. Using it as a keyboard is less particular than having a 1950 car as a daily commute.

    But ... again. 99% of my friends type on conventional keyboards, so probably I am the odd minority here...

    1. Re:Happy to see people care for keyboards by dindi · · Score: 1

      I have too = I have two :) ...lol ...hundreds wasted on keyboards and I cannot type :O

  60. Re:Not this again. by OYAHHH · · Score: 1

    You are 100% correct about that control key

    --
    Caution: Contents under pressure
  61. Re:Not this again. by Megane · · Score: 1

    I was about to post the same thing. Also approved by Jerry Pournelle. I have two different versions of them somewhere, one with the F-keys both at the top and the left. A year or so ago I dumped and started disassembling their EPROMs in hopes that someday when I get around to it, I could make my own keyboard controller for USB. I still need to catch up on the USB side, but I've made an STM32F103-based device be a keyboard before, so I have a pile of "bluepill" boards ready while I get the USB code going.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  62. For that price... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    For that price, I want a keyboard with the control key in the correct location!

  63. Only choice for communicating with Colossus by Babel-17 · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  64. Re: Not this again. by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

    Funny, I still have one here, and after years of abuse, it probably needs a little realignment on the mirror (slightly out of focus). Yes, built like a tank.

    --
    I've got better things to do tonight than die.
  65. I would choose the DEC LK-250 instead by dcavanaugh · · Score: 1

    Back in the late 1970's, I learned to type on a manual typewriter. As a result, I developed a heavy typing touch, which served me well with 1980's keyboards like the VT-100 terminal. A few years later, we had VT220 terminals with LK-201 keyboards. Every key was in the right place, but the key action was lighter and I wore out them out periodically. Today, my typing touch is considerably lighter. The LK-250 is the PC (ancient DIN connector) version of the LK-201, with the alt key replacing the compose key. IMHO, we reached the epitome of keyboard design back in the 1990's, with honorable mention to Apple for their keyboard designs of 2008-2015.

  66. Re:Money.. by scsirob · · Score: 1

    Quite simple really.. The Model F have a market today, you can sell them to enthousiasts who used to own one.

    Owners of the Model M on the other hand are still enjoying their original product every day and have no reason to buy anything else today.

    --
    To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
  67. Re:If I'm spending that kind of money on a keyboar by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    And thank god. Because while the idea of those were that they were washable, the reality was most people used them to avoid ever having to wash anything.

    Condom is a wrong comparison. I remember when seeing those keyboards "used condom" is more what came to mind.

    Eww.

  68. Keyboard E's had a more satisfying click. by Grumpinuts · · Score: 1

    We used to make IBM keyboards at their plant in Greenock. Keyboard E's were used for 3270/3279 terminals and had the highest spring force and the most satisfying click known to man. No keyboard since has come anywhere close.

  69. Re:i used to love mine when i was kid by mark-t · · Score: 1

    there is no need to have the keys be 3/4 of an inch thick other than to give you carpel tunnel syndrome as you cock your wrist up trying to get on top of the keys.

    That's only issue if you did not try to rest the base of your palms on the bottom of the keyboard while typing. Like playing a piano, to prevent injury, it is best to not rest your hands upon anything, keeping your hands always raised fully above the keys. This is just part of good keyboarding posture, and you should *NEVER* need to flex their wrist back while typing. If you find that you are, then you are doing it incorrectly, and are only setting yourself up for a world of eventual pain if you persist in doing it that way. Good posture can feel more tiring when you are not used to it, but it's well worth the effort of building up your endurance

    --
    File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
  70. a nostalgia too far by epine · · Score: 1

    I got rid of one from my junk closet not long ago.

    The blasted thing capped my burst typing speed to about 90 wpm, by which point it kind of feels like running on wet sand—the wet sand of some strange Pop Rock planet.

    I was mainly using to install obscure distributions on old beater boxes.

    I'm presently typing on a Compaq 247429-101 Erase-Ease keyboard (though I never use the left thumb backspace key).

    This thing has been a total workhorse and it has a brilliantly long PS/2 cable.

    Every year or so it begins to look like Lister's revenge and I have to pop all 100 keys and scrub every damn side of every damn key cover from the curry crossing (the giant steaming bowl of tan goodness typically perched on the edge of my glass desk, three inches above and six inches behind home position; just like my typing, a minor embolism every 99 spoonfuls or thereabouts—I could really use a special backspace key for this other problem.)

  71. Re:Not this again. by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    In other news: Cherry makes buckling spring keyswitches.

    Hint: They don't, Cherry use a completely different clicker mechanism.

    --
    No sig today...
  72. Love that keyset by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1

    I've been developing software since 1981 and those keyboards had the best tactile feel whose layout somehow results in less typos. I've used some keyboards that were so bad that they caused RSI.

    Both of my Windows tower computers at home have a IBM model F Keyboard with the function keys across the top. The oldest one has been holding up since 1993.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  73. HP keyboards by NorthWay · · Score: 1

    IBM burglar killers? Bah.
    Give me the HP PA-RISC Workstation (50/99MHz) keyboard any day. Took a bit of getting used to, but suddenly all others felt wrong. (I've seen similar later, but they had hard plastic keys and not the soft rubber ones of the original.)

    (Anyone know some place that sells them?)

  74. I don't get it. by sabbede · · Score: 1
    What's the appeal of noisy keyboards? I hate all that clicking and clacking. I have a rather fancy gaming keyboard I hardly use because the noise is so irritating it seriously detracts from my gaming. I have to wear headphones so the sounds of the game aren't overwhelmed by the keys.

    Quiet keys are one of the best things to ever happen to keyboards. And yes, I am old enough to have grown up with noisy keyboards and typewriters. I hated them, and I loved it when keys got quiet.

  75. Not new by Tighe_L · · Score: 1

    Unicomp has been making them for YEARS! https://www.pckeyboard.com/