Slashdot Mirror
Learn To Code, It's More Important Than English as a Second Language, Says Apple CEO (cnbc.com)
Apple CEO Tim Cook says it is more important to learn how to code than it is to learn English as a second language. From a report: The tech executive made the remarks to French outlet Konbini while in the country for a meeting with French President Emmanuel Macron, who has called for tech companies to pay higher taxes in Europe. "If I were a French student and I were 10 years old, I think it would be more important for me to learn coding than English. I'm not telling people not to learn English in some form -- but I think you understand what I am saying is that this is a language that you can [use to] express yourself to 7 billion people in the world," Cook tells Konbini. "I think that coding should be required in every public school in the world. [...] It's the language that everyone needs, and not just for the computer scientists. It's for all of us."
Here's my program, Mr. Cook.
Ezekiel 23:20
That will improve communication in international development teams -- not having a common language to speak to each other in. I'm sure that will have no impact on the final product.
The idea that everybody needs to learn to code is ridiculous. It's like saying that everybody needs to learn how to build a house, or how to build a car, etc.
Just like learning basic carpentry or basic auto repair is a useful life skill, so are basic computer skills. But if programming isn't your thing, then learning it isn't going to do you a lot of good in your life.
Code using what programming language ?
Swift ?
Whose keywords are english words ? And most of the documentation is in english ?
The french should sue Apple for not releasing the programming language "Rapide" - where all the keywords are in french. And it understands the following:
laisser a=quatre-vingt-dix-huit
1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
How is learning to code going to help a ditch digger?
Not everyone needs to know how to code. Not everyone has the talent for it. Adding more and more subpar coders is only going to make stuff worse, not better.
The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
A former uncle-in-law of mine said when he went to college (back in the late 60s/early 70s) taking programing classes counted towards the foreign language requirement. Fast forward to when I was in college (90s), same college, yet they did *not* count as a foreign language class. And I really really wished they had. Programing languages are easy for me because they (well most) are built on logic, real languages are not (and they change overtime and other languages influence them as well, so the rules are not strict and riddled with exceptions).
Oh, I mistook it for Perl ;-)
Tech CEO's just want cheap labor for their sector. They don't care about more general downsides of poor English to a other areas of a person's life. For example, when a coder gets older and is forced out of coding due to agism or RSI, as often happens, lack of English could greatly limit Plan B. It can also make everyday life difficult outside of work.
On a related note, the NRA says everyone should own and learn about guns. Surprise!
Table-ized A.I.
This seems like Cook is looking to turn the States into a land of cheap programming labor, like those lands that corporate America enjoy today.
--- Andy West http://andywest.org
Because, you know, we don't need any other services in this world. We will code the trash pick up.
If one wants to learn programming and doesn't speak English, learning some English would actually go a long ways to learning programming given every language that matters was written in English. An if statement is inscrutable to most to be sure, but its that much more inscrutable to someone who doesn't know what 'if' means when they see it in the source.
Anyone know? Or was he simply reading off some prepared script or a teleprompter?
And learn to haggle in some language not your own. In my set of engineers scientists lawyers and physicians do you know who has his own jet? The dumb one who took Mandarin and set up a business importing Jeans.
And also it is a real problem in France not to have mastery of the world's second language.
If it's so important, what kind of programs have you written? How many? In what language?
"Everyone needs to learn how to code so I can grow my business and pay my programmers the absolute bare minimum because there are so many programmers and I sense a certain administration closing the noose on the previous methods of reducing wage costs."
Does anyone want to guess how much steam the Apple engine has left now that Tim has been slowly rehashing every idea Steve came up with?
This is pretty remarkable... I had no idea that humans were able to communication with each other universally using code!
Let's see....
if (!this->stdout)
buffer_overflow()
else
aaaaahhhhhhh()
Everyone understood that, right?
Given how many bugs macOS and iOS now have, I think that'll be a skill even more in demand.
AC comments get piped to
I'm not telling people not to learn English in some form -- but I think you understand what I am saying is that this is a language that you can [use to] express yourself to 7 billion people in the world,
Considering Google's recent offering, it would probably be even better if you can express yourself clearly and completely in your own native language.
What you think the following words were 'universal'?
If
Then
Until
While
else
It's written left to right, the non-letter characters are also from english.
You want to learn to code? Learn English first.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Seriously, it does not. The level most people can learn to code on (with significant effort) is maybe comparable to being able to order a beer or to say "thank you" in a foreign language. Coding is an experts-only game and it will remain that. You would not seriously advise people to "learn to do mathematical proofs", would you? Coding on any level where it is worthwhile doing is on that level and often even harder, since you need to understand the machine you are coding for.
Of course, Cook will likely know that very well and just wants to assure a steady supply of cheap, low-quality coders. The stupidity here is with those that believe such statements.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I was looking at university catalogs in the mid-1990's. Many were willing to waive the foreign language requirement if a programming language course was taken. Pascal and C were popular programming languages. I've never heard anyone speak Pascal or C. That gibberish sounded like Greek anyway.
Not everyone wants to code, not even a majority of people want to do that. There are many other jobs available that people aspire to, medicine, mechanical engineering, novel writing. The tech industry should get away from this notion that every child should learn to code.
>"Apple CEO Tim Cook says it is more important to learn how to code than it is to learn English as a second language."
And that just shows how ignorant he really is. Knowing English is far, far, more important than learning coding. It is useful in just about every single field out there and give you the ability to communicate to nearly anyone on Earth, certainly any place that has a strong economy and/or strong educational system. But most importantly, communication language is something best learned when very young. The brain designed to be wide open and ready for communication language ability. Computer coding is something the brain is NOT really ready for when very young- that comes later with logic, reasoning, math, etc. And keep in mind that while all humans can easily learn English [when young], that is NOT true for coding- there is a large portion, perhaps a majority, of people who will never really learn or master coding at ANY age.
Knowing both (English and Coding) is great. But if you have to choose one, make it English and teach it young. If you can do both, teach coding later, after English.
As a software engineer, I would love to see more skilled software engineers! Competition is good. Being out-innovated can be very beneficial by pointing out your blind side and making you step up your game.
After all, a complicated set of libraries is all computer languages become. And with the extent and diversity of functions and myriad of libraries needed to create programs in the future, the task will become far better suited to computer memory than humans. Better to bore a computer to death with billions of lines of code than ruin a students brain with the rote learning of millions of interrelated library functions.
This message was not sent from an iPhone because Peter Sellers really was a deviated prevert without a dime for the call
"If everyone learns to code, then we can pay programmers less. Thank you!"
Huh?
Rust is the 43rd most popular programming language in the world in 2017. I've been working with international teams for over a decade now and, although personal experience doesn't mean anything at all in these sorts of things, I have never personally seen Rust used for professional programming.
Although it pains me to say it, since I hate the language, I think that if you have to pick one that is closest to being "universal", it would be Java.
The job growth is NOT in IT! Go learn a trade.
Oh, I mistook it for Perl ;-)
This Perl or this Perl?
Ezekiel 23:20
Seriously ... I've never heard a reference to any software he developed before?
Bill Gates, by contrast, actually DID write some code, including part of the BASIC operating system that was used in some of the old Radio Shack TRS-80 computers.
It seems to me like if you haven't learned to code yourself, it's pretty hypocritical to declare that all students need to learn it now.
Dreamed of X86 Assembler speaking aliens. Though once they had defined their data section, I knew everything they could possibly say to me.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Comparing coding to language is an exercise in shortsightedness.
Being as close as we've gotten so far to being a universal language
I thought that was Scheme. Including the "diverse and distributed international team". (Will Rust add continuations and guaranteed proper tail calls at some point?)
Ezekiel 23:20
This idea that learning to code is analogous to learning a natural language is a stupid one, usually promulgated by red-state xenophobes who really just want to cut funding for foreign language instruction, and send everyone to YouTube for a free Intro to Java tutorial and pretend it's just as good.
Seriously. It's bullshit. Just stop. Please.
Here : https://developer.apple.com/do...
I see a button for Chinese, Japanese, Korean. The rest is in English. There is nothing in French.
So how am I supposed to know what your system does if I can't read English Mr. Cook? Maybe I should learn Chinese?
Languages other than English are always second class in computing. You can't code effectively without at least some basic English skills. Though if the point is to teach code as a support for logical reasoning, then why not, but in that case, it is much closer to maths than it is to any natural language.
Mandarin Chinese 1.09 billion speakers ...
English 983 million speakers
French 229 million speakers
If you know Chinese or English, you can determine the requirements of nearly a billion people for any code you write. If you know English, 611 million of those people could be outside the US and England.
If you know Mandarin Chinese, only about 100 million speakers would be outside of "greater China" (PRC/HK/ROC/other Asian Ethnic Chinese)
Now it is true that 115 million African people spread across 31 Francophone countries can speak French as either a first or a second language, and there will be more of them (perhaps 700 million) by 2050. So learning French is a bit of a gamble of the economic and demographic growth of Africa.
Says the native english speaker who can't code.
Well done Mr Cook!
So, how does he expect to be understood by the French? In code?
The new Rust programming language is quickly becoming the de facto language of international software dev teams.
Soon to be the first result from a Google search for examples of wishful thinking. Thanks for your contribution.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Perligata is an interesting language in that it can change the way you think about coding which means it is worth looking at.
The first issue is that it uses Latin suffexes to determine L-values and R-values. "last=next" in most languages would become "lasto da nextum" or "da nextum lasto". That can get interesting in cases where there are more than one L-vaules in a statement and is related to some of the things that can be done in the inner statement in a C for loop.
The naming of some of the functions are somewhat entertaining. x=int(y*abs(sine(z))) would be something like "xo da decolla yum multiplica priva oppone zum." translated "lvalue X is lopped off y times striped from the oppose of z"
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis
-- Will program for bandwidth
This is all just trite "tech is great and important" cheerleader noiseâ" unless and until Apple bundles a modern version of Hypercard with OSX and IOS.
How about it, Tim?
Another clown who wants plenty of code monkeys to select from.
I'm sure that will have no impact on the final product.
Of course not because all the best programmers avoid commenting their code.
If they were doing statistics the fourth R might actually be R.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I ls -l to learn permissions
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
> it would be Java.
I would have said Javascript since almost every device has a web browser these days it seems ... but who knows ?
I've been working for the European Commission recently. The group I was working with had people in it from at least ten nationalities.
They're all coding in Java and Javascript.
And communicating ideas to each other in English.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
...that instead of spending taxpayer money on educating people, we should be spending it on training them with a very narrow skills-set that may well be becoming obsolete, at least in the US, by the time they graduate.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
Go away Murdoch.
TFTFY.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Yes, Trump is so much easier to deal with--you know from the outset that he's out to screw you.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
AC re micro and "can and do teach themselves. "
The computers sold and offered?
Dragon 32/64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
BBC Micro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Amstrad CPC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
ZX Spectrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The MSX architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ?
People found Basic in included computer booklets, published game books or magazines. They typed in the fun games.
Just typing in anther persons code is not learning how to code. Borrowing a tape, book or buying a magazine allowed a lot of people to play games. The 1980's generation did not all become experts and nations like the UK who invested so much in early computer education did not get to take over the emerging global computer market.
The US educational method was better. Teach math from traditional low cost books to students. Teach advanced math skills using lower cost calculators.
Then test all students to sort out the smart students. Offer the best of the best and only the best university places, scholarships.
No need to give every school in the USA lots of expensive early computers, have to invest in code skills, computers and "computer" teachers.
Test for math early on. Then let only best who passed all the testing on merit learn with expensive, new computers at university.
The US was then able to sell advanced computer products in the UK as the UK production lines closed and costs caught up with trying nation wide computer education.
Putting robot kits, new computers, more experts into schools will not make well below average and very average students into top computer experts.
Focus on the best at math and ensure after years of testing they get to a good university.
The other students might find jobs they enjoy in biology, further vocational education, the arts, sport, music, languages, transportation, housekeeping, teaching.
Such jobs use computers but that can be taught depending on the job.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Naw, 8051 assembler if you want to go for nearly universal. Counting number of devices using 8051, it completely overwhelms Java. The drawback is that it's more confusing than German verbs.
If programming is the second language then why are they teaching python?
It would it be nice if the language doesn't incite flame wars re the choice of the day.
For that matter, WTH have the universities been doing teaching with Java?
If the goal is to produce more bad programming to enable the sale of more computers to enable the melting of more sand that's all fine. But past that easily 90% of the population would be better off without it.
I am a non-English speaker
I learned how to code because I learned English first, before I learned how to code
Almost all the books, references, tips and tweaks available online about coding are in English. If I were to *NOT* know English it would be a tremendous disadvantage to me in my pursuit of learning how to code
Cook is an idiot, a very stupid idiot !!
if you run a software company it's perfectly sensible to want more employees so you can pay lower wages.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
he just wants more coders so he doesn't have to pay so much for one ones he's got. The fact that the H1-Bs are driving any sane person out of IT in America doesn't help matters. Mix in the Xenophobia that has been growing in the US for the last few years and you've got a very small chance politicians might have to curtail work visas enough to impact Mr Cooks bottom line & stock options.
This is nothing but a cynical attempt to get cheap labor. Nothing new here.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
when XCode runs on an iPad.
Otherwise, your $500 iPad that my niece's parents were forced to buy for her schooling is not fit for purpose.
Are we talking about programming or slapping code together that somehow does shit? Because yes, the latter is easy. Sadly, because it also means that we're stuck with horribly inefficient, insecure and unmanageable code that people wrote that thought they can program when all they actually were capable of was cargo-cult programming and cribbing from various webpages.
And we sure as FUCK don't need more idiots like that!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well, he knows English, and just look at how he drives Apple into the ground. His logic is sound, English didn't do diddly jack to make me run this company efficiently, maybe programming would have.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Collaborate? How about "how would you LEARN the effin' programming language?"
99% of all documentation, at least past the absolute basics, is available in English only.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Respect is earned, not given freely. And few who consider themselves "betters" have done anything to earn respect. What they deserve is a bullet, and what keeps them alive is that they ain't worth the jail time.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Exactly. Schools should be teaching students how to think, how to learn what they do not already know, and exposing them to diverse topics against which they can ply these skills.
And how should THAT make them better workers, willing to work long hours for little pay without complaining? Our schools instill what they are supposed to: Conformity, subservience and following unquestioningly whatever the authority demands from you.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
if you are living in a non-native-english speaking country you first have to learn english because most and best books (or videos) are in english. so you would have to learn english first to to able to learn coding.
if your native language is english, then you alreayd know english.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
A report from Forrester said that 97% of them are brilliant and one in six is a saint.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
On a related note, the NRA says everyone should own and learn about guns. Surprise!
Actually, they don't say that everyone should own guns.
They say everyone has the right to own guns, and they do say everyone should learn something about guns, so that children know not to touch them without appropriate supervision, and that adults know how to avoid shooting their own kneecaps and such. But everyone should own a gun? No, there are definitely people for whom it is advisable not to own a gun.
Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), Narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), Psychopathy (lack of remorse and empathy), Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others) is more important than Coding in REAL world
Casteism
Frenchmen spotted :)
Your english is quite good.
PS: https://everything2.com/title/...
1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.