Slashdot Mirror
Flat Earther Plans To Launch Homemade Manned Rocket (apnews.com)
walterbyrd shares an Associated Press report: Self-taught rocket scientist "Mad" Mike Hughes is a 61-year-old limo driver who's spent the last few years building a steam-powered rocket out of salvage parts in his garage. His project has cost him $20,000, which includes Rust-Oleum paint to fancy it up and a motor home he bought on Craigslist that he converted into a ramp. His first test of the rocket will also be the launch date -- Saturday, when he straps into his homemade contraption and attempts to hurtle over the ghost town of Amboy, California. He will travel about a mile at a speed of roughly 500 mph. "I don't believe in science," said Hughes, whose main sponsor for the rocket is Research Flat Earth. "I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But that's not science, that's just a formula. There's no difference between science and science fiction."
UPDATE (11/25/17): His first launch atttempt had to be cancelled after his homemade launcher broke down in his driveway.
UPDATE (11/25/17): His first launch atttempt had to be cancelled after his homemade launcher broke down in his driveway.
OMG will someone stop him from this suicide attempt?
I can't.. I was going to quote some stuff and then comment on some other.. but, I can't..
Even Wile E Coyote wasn't that stupid.
Let's hope his test on Saturday goes well and that he proves Darwin's theory of evolution.
Darwin believes in science.
It's gotten to the point where we can't tell the trolls from the idiots. It's just easier to assume they're all idiots.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Doesn't believe in science. Uses science to kill himself.
Can you not please try and speak for the rest of us? Itâ(TM)s a science article about home made rockets , this is a geek site. Itâ(TM)s exactly what the site is about and has always been about , and Iâ(TM)ve been here since the nineties
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
"Self-taught rocket scientist..."
This is gonna be good.
...so does some science!
He believes the Earth is flat, and wants to build a rocket so that he can go up and take a look for himself.
So he has an hypothesis and is going to build and experiment to either prove or disprove it...
Maybe his definition of science is a bit different from mine, though...
Zefram... is that you?
The guy is 61 years old, seems to be holding down a job from which he is able to save for his hobby. He likes to make grandiose statements but if he's applying the "formulas" (rather than the "science") correctly, he should succeed which means that he's not trying to commit suicide publicly.
I don't think anybody can give odds on his success (especially from the article) but I think, as a society, we've become too risk averse and we need to encourage people like "Mad" Mike to go out there. Maybe there's something to a steam powered booster that makes it more attractive/economical than a traditional rocket - this could be the next 10x reduction in launch costs.
Or it could result in a smoking hole in the ground - but if large corporations (ie ULA) aren't creative enough to try radically new ideas like this, then we need the (slightly) nutty among us to push the ideas forwards even if it puts their lives at risk.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Is how we can encourage this behavior. Encourage everyone who doesn't "believe" in science to take themselves out. It could only help the species.
Of course, we'd lose most of our politicians....so it's really a win/win.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Rocket scientist trolls entire world by building a rocket out of garbage while claiming not to be a scientist. Plans to adhere to the scientific method while claiming not to believe in science.
Godspeed, you mad scientist. Onward for science!
Didn't I see you in the YouTube comments section?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
This.
Scot Kelly said that if the earth was flat, the edge would be the coolest place for people to visit. People would go there on vacation to look over the edge.
Have gnu, will travel.
If he can manage to build a safe vehicle, get his permits, launch, collect his data, safely land, and do a proper analysis... It will be a triumph... for science.
Wait, wait, wait... this is a terrible idea...
(Grabs popcorn)
Okay, you can proceed now.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat.
Calling it now.
Because, when he inevitably dies from this, the other Flat Earthers will claim he was killed off by some conspiracy to keep the "truth" a secret.
this is how easy it is to dupe 99% of mass media, slash dot, and the population.
If you donate to or encourage this obviously mentally-ill man's provably wrong, insane, expensive, public suicide attempt, are you, in any way culpable for the consequences?
Not for him though.
so $20,000 to go 1800 feet up(probably not), to take a picture, to see for himself whether the Earth is flat. Or, or, and I'm just spitballing here, but he could spend $500 to get to 39,000 feet, on a ticket from LA to Hawaii, otherwise known as 40 times less for 22 times as high.
But this guy is doing more real science and engineering than most of us ever will.
Oh sure, he mocks the terms - but I interpret that as mocking the orthodoxy. "You can't do that - y'all aint got no degree and learnin!".
And pop outside and look for where the north pole star is that everything is rotating around. THAT would prove the flat earth wrong, even if it doesn't prove the globe earth round. And cost a shitload less than 20 grand.
The laser we routinely bounce of the mirror we put ON THE MOON
Photos
The International Space Station
Navigation, that works
Satellites
Eclipses
The position of the stars
The fact that everything based on physics, which requires the earth to be round and the solar system to be heliocentric to work....works.
Facts, provable, replicable, testable science. Just...stop. it's so...damn...sad.
Not a single person standing up to actually show any evidence that the earth is "round" and instead you all rely on insults and bullshit. For slashdot, belief in a round earth is just RELIGION, like belief in evolution and global warming.
High school kids with weather balloons take pictures of its roundness every day. If religion were this easy to prove, we'd all be theologians.
Man publicly announces suicide attempt due to his refusal to accept reality.
Well, it's a big-ass rocket that will probably ends with an explosion...
Somebody should call mythbusters to do a special episode on this guy.
#DeleteFacebook
He did a quarter mile test jump already, so the vehicle functions. At least marginally.
A mile-long rocket-boosted jump isn't that much of a difference from what he already achieved. I'm thinking there's a decent chance of success.
BUT
He also wants to go to space in the future. That is a huge leap in difficulty and risk. Plus, being a flat earther precludes him from having a full understanding of orbital dynamics. I don't understand how he could plan any kind of trajectory. What physics is he working with?
So, I expect death eventually---assuming the FAA doesn't put their foot down on his space ambitions.
But man, if they quash his space launch after a publicized atmospheric test, I can only imagine how much louder the flat earthers will howl about a conspiracy. Maybe that's the entire point.
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Just in case he overshoots and lands on the moon.
#DeleteFacebook
Honestly, the guy is a nut, but good for him. If he wants to prove it himself, he's bought into the cruz of science even if he's totally loony.
Science has nothing to hide, and certainly nothing to gain from giving this guy a persecution complex by forbidding him from doing as he pleases*. Can you imagine "I built this rocket and the Forces That Beâ forbade me from launching it because they knew it would expose their secrets"?
* If he's really doing it over uninhabited land. Obviously we should completely stop him (or help correct him) if he does this in a way that can hurt others.
I wonder if the mechanics of landing are just formulas or "science fiction"
TFA says that he plans to open two parachutes, and presumably float to safety.
Yeah. Take a look at the chute on his first launch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Definitely needs some rethinking, and, yes, a second chute is a really good idea.
With that said, though: this is really cool!
another yootoob, this one with still pictures from a test a few months later. You definitely did not want to land inside THAT rocket! https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
For those old enough to remember, this is not very different from what Evil Knievel did when jumping the Snake River canyon.
Strike "what Evil Knievel did". Substitute "what Evil Knievel tried to do.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Would any climate conspiracy theorists like a rocket? For taking atmospheric temperature measurements maybe? How about anti-vaxxers, maybe you could see the Illuminati space station where they make autism juice or something? Rockets shouldn't be just for flat-earthers! >:D
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Anyone got marshmallows?
They may taste like pork and stupid when they're done.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Maybe he grabbed some woman's boobs ten years ago and now has little choice. Charlie Rose is probably wishing he thought of this right about now.
Quit posting this stupid shit on Slashdot! There are a million other garbage sites people can go to read this tripe
I'm not sure if you realized this or not, but you clicked the link to get to this article, read it, and posted about it. Slashdot didn't do it for you. Don't like it? Don't click on it.
that is NOT what your core, loyal audience wants here!
We can't, as a the Slashdot community, collectively reach the same conclusion on one single subject, but we have found the one person that feels they can represent our group in its entirety. PeeAitchPee 2020! PeeAitchPee 2020! PeeAitchPee 2020!
"I don't believe in science; it's fake news, believe me. I know more than scientists and the generals. I will dis-invite that total loser Einstein from the White House. All his equations: Faaake! I can do rocket surgery in my sleep, partly because I got a bigly rocket in my Pence, I mean pants. And let's stop Buck Schumer's idiotic practice of buying rocket parts from Jiina; Make American Rockets Great Again!"
Table-ized A.I.
I do wish him to succeed. I like people who are not afraid to get their hands dirty and actually build stuff.
Open Source Network Inventory for the masses! Kuwaiba
It's a geek site, and yet you're either trademarking a bunch of a's with little hats or they still haven't figured out Unicode 20 years in.
Do you have ESP?
I think Trump may have found his new director of NASA.
You are welcome on my lawn.
From the article:
He plans to go about a mile â" reaching an altitude of about 1,800 feet â" before pulling two parachutes.
One can easily get to that height (and much more) even in a small plane, providing much better controlled conditions for making photos or measurements. That could be hired for a few hundred bucks at most.
Even cheaper: climb a mountain.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Is it named the Vulture? His goal is the moon!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...
THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
I stand corrected. *tips hat*
All I know is that I'm staying THE HELL outta any damn homemade submarine that guy's built.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
I also do not understand the hate. He is more excentric than dangerous. And a steamengine powerd rocket? I do not care if it moves at all, I want to see that. This is like a person building a house from matches. Sure it won't pass fire inspection, but it is impressive no matter what.
I wish him all the best and even secretly hope it works. Because that would be awesome: a steampunck rocket going to the moon as if it was written by Jules Verne. Who can be against that?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Unlikely. At sea level you'd have to go 8km/s to orbit the planet (which is kinda hard to pull off with air resistance and all that, hence we usually go up a few kilometers first). Still, even up there in LEO you still need about 7.5km/s to stay up there.
That's about 17,000 mph for you imperials out there.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Fuck you!
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
You can also take that skywave bounce, along with some decent synchronized clocks (which are the norm on modern Internet connected computers) and use the coordinates of the receiver and the transmitter, and the speed of light, to calculate the altitude at which the radio bounce must have occurred. This is why "live via satellite" conversations have that awkward roughly 1-second delay.
Similarly, my father recounts stories of actually looking up the dates when Sputnik was flying overhead and tuning in his amateur radio. The broadcast frequency was published all over, because the Soviets were super proud of their accomplishment. And it didn't take long for the eggheads to work out and publish the dates/times when it would be flying overhead in your local area. It was right there in your local newspaper. The right frequency, the right antenna direction, the right time, and sure enough, he could hear the beeps of that very first satellite. Now the neat thing about satellites is (and this sorta relates to how GPS works too!): you just need 4 friends with directional antennas who are positioned at arbitrary but known coordinates on the globe and once everyone figures out the direction to point such that the signal is at its strongest, you can use fairly simple trigonometry to discover not only the relative position, but also the altitude of the signal's origin (this is also why no foreign governments doubted the moon landing! They knew where the broadcasts HAD to be coming from). Nowadays, there are plenty of satellites that you can do this same experiment upon. My dad didn't go this far, but other amateurs around the globe actively did (and astronomers continue to do with things like the ISS), and then they wrote everything up in their little hobbyist magazines There was no Internet, and they were nerds, they had nothing better to do. Remember, these are nerdy fanboys, generally between the ages of 13 and 35. These are people who would get super-excited to talk to other operators around the globe. They weren't the type to care about things like politics or conspiracies. Short of bribing them all with perfect girlfriends, there wouldn't be much you could to do get them not to share their knowledge with each other. They just liked the science. (naturally, none of them doubted that the earth is oblate-spheroid. And weren't particularly worried about confirming that, because we've known this for plenty of simpler reasons for centuries. My point is that the shape is required for their calculations to validate each other the way that they always do.)
Technically it's misadventure, not suicide. Just like how "it's not a lie, if you believe it", it's not a suicide, if you believe you'll survive. And this guy is very good at believing things! Stop doubting his conviction and sincerity, and start supporting your fellow human being. What kind of misanthropic monster are you?
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Light gets tired if it has to go long distance and thus "falls down".
I shit you not, that's what I get to hear when I offer similar pictures.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
and he was teaching us all that women are genetically inferior then he would be a hero here. The /. crowd is very flexible on its fealty to science.
But at least I can look far enough to see the stars. So they're ... how close again? Must be closer than the next large city over.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
GPS
Not a bad argument, but you don't know where that signal is coming from.
The laser we routinely bounce of the mirror we put ON THE MOON
Have you done that? No? So you're just taking someone's word for it.
Photos
Did you take them? No? So you're just taking someone's word they're real.
The International Space Station
Have you been there? No? So you're just taking someone's word for it.
These are bad arguments: they're all "no, really, trust what they're telling you". The opposite of science, really.
This is a good argument: get on a boat, go out some distance on a very clear day, watch the shore gradually sink below the horizon.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Oh c'mon, you have TOR, you have VPN, either watch people kick the bucket or throw your geek card into the shredder provided.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's THE LAW!
The difference between those laws and the ones that we make is that you can't break those, not even with a lot of money.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The FAA now controls what's at the South Pole?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Illegal by what jurisdiction?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Are the Darwin Awards still around?
The morale is to never start a ridiculous cult, as there will always be people stupid enough to take it seriously and make it a reality.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
LOL... Look at the clean aerodynamics on the second picture... at 500 MPH!!!
https://storage.googleapis.com... [googleapis.com]
And then oh boy the sponsors
https://storage.googleapis.com... [googleapis.com]
He really needs to add Looney Tunes as a sponsor because I believe this was inspired by watching too many cartoons as a child.
I have Facebook friends who are Flat Earthers... the primary motivation is religion. I have been told by these fellow that NASA maintains guards on the Ice Wall in Antarctica to prevent you from learning the truth.
The S in NASA stands for Satan. There is vast conspiracy trying to keep you from finding out the truth of the Bible... No kidding.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Fairly unlikely to happen.
Orbital velocity at ground level on earth is about 8km/s. A mile or ten up it's still not really in any relevant way different. 8km/s is about 17,800 mph.
To give you an idea what kind of force would push against this rocket: Hurricane Irma, that breeze a few people down in Florida Keys might remember, had a top speed of 185mph.
In other words, take what Irma did and multiply by 100.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
There is something ironic about a phallic -shaped device sponsored by NanoLube.
I don't believe in science...I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But that's not science, that's just a formula.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
It's what you get when burning hydrogen and oxygen. This is a great troll.
But shouldn't a flat earth allow you to see all stars anywhere on the disc?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I don't know if I wanna see him. At least not in the "after" shots.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Odd. I can buy tickets for a trip to Antarctica. They're not exactly cheap, but available.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Like Wernher von Braun?
No not at all like Wernher von Braun. von Braun had a degree in engineering and took part in liquid-fueled rockets tests while a student at TU Berlin. So he was not really self-taught and he clearly believed in science and knew what it was. This idiot is not a scientist, he just using formulae without grasping the big picture of what is going on which is dangerous because there is no guarantee that he has applied them correctly.
If that Felix guy got practically into orbit with balloons and that juts sounds easier, safer, and cheaper, then why doesn't this guy use them? Whatever, I hope he dies.
He could have just strapped a bunch of weather balloons filled with helium to a lawn chair, like a normal idiot, but no-o-o-o-o....
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
Steam is what you get from burning Hydrogen. He's trolling and 99% of Slashdot fell for it.
Quit posting this stupid shit on Slashdot!
False. Please keep posting hilarious nerd-related stuff like this on Slashdot.
Ohh, and how was the priciples of earodynamics discovered? Shurely not with the use of science. This is basically a nutcase, trying to use the fruits of science to commit suicide. Let him. One less nutcase on this planet.
Or he could just fly in a passenger jet.
This is the result of a failing education system that doesn't put enough stress on science and mathematics.
It is really small, and much smaller than it once was when it was a regular train watering station, and Route 66 was a major national road, but Amboy is NOT a ghost town! It has a population of 4, it has a gas station, and it has a post office!
It is just about the darkest site in Southern California, and good for doing astronomy in the area.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
Maybe he should watch Rocket Farmer once or twice. Or maybe he's been watching it to much..
Common, everyone has wanted to build their own rocket. If anything at all, it would be fun as hell. :)
[($)]
Can't fix stupid. The only thing you can do is try and minimize the collateral damage.
Let's not misunderstand what he's doing here; it has nothing whatsoever to do with attempting to prove or disprove anything at all. The whole flat-earth thing is just an excuse to get someone with deep enough pockets to fund his stunt rocket. The reality is, it would be so much cheaper (and safer!) to exceed the altitude he's going to reach by just chartering a flight on most any airline; they routinely achieve altitudes of 35,000 feet, (6.6 miles) and tickets for the flight wouldn't come even remotely near to the cost of his $20K publicity stunt.
Which, by the way, is all that this is, in the end... because you can't readily see the curvature of the earth until you reach at least 50,000 feet. (Modern airlines don't generally reach that high, since they grounded the Concorde.)
Buff said
What? This is the best article /. has had in months.
Man decides to commit suicide in elaborate and interesting fashion; wants audience to see him die.
"I don't believe in science" says person who has either severe cognitive deficits, or difficulties with English.
I believe someone should sit down with this man and explain what science is and isn't. What it isn't: men in lab coats with egg-shaped heads, speaking in a cryptic and arcane fashion, lording secret knowledge above everyone else. What it is: an algorithm for applying common sense to observations, and a means to test ideas. A natural offshoot of this is experimentation, where reason (common sense,) is applied to create a scenario in which observations can be made that will tend either to confirm, or disprove, specific things.
I believe when someone claims not to believe in science, what he really means is that he doesn't trust the lab-coated, egg-headed, cryptically-speaking, often socially awkward, neurotic individuals shown to us on television and movies, (media that only exist thanks to scientists, ironically,) which lend people naturally to distrust them, given the survival tactic of fearing the unknown that has mostly stood humanity in excellent stead to survive from prehistory to today, though it is sometimes, (as is the case when a polluted environment slowly and inexorably dooms all mammal-kind to give way to the next dominant form of life after we, as a species, snuff ourselves out,) disadvantageous after all.
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
He is sure going to gloat when he proves himself right over the round earthers
Just noticed that. My apologies
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
...Yet uses science to fly his rocket. GENIUS!
years building a steam-powered rocket
I’m hoping that he’ll be heating his water tank by burning American coal, though. What this country needs to regain its leadership in space is coal-fired steam rockets.
He believes what he believes, including that the Earth is flat. (...) Down the road, he’s intending to build a rocket that takes him to space, so he can snap a picture and see with his own eyes.
As for checking whether the Earth is flat, someone’s got to tell him that he doesn’t need to build a more powerful rocket. All he needs to do is drill a hole deep enough to go through the pancake and jump. After he falls far enough from the bottom of the planet, he just needs to look up and he should be able to see the plane of Earth in space. But, who knows, perhaps he will be able to use his steam rocket to drill the hole.
Oh and, Californians, rejoice! The article also says:
Following his jump, he said he’s going to announce his plans to leap into the race for governor of California.
At least make a memorable video.
The first video that you mentioned is interesting for slow-motion visual detail, but viewers might like to know that it was apparently slowed by a factor of 10, compared to the original which can be seen here on YouTube. Total flight duration: about 20 seconds. The real thing looks quite a bit less NASA-esque than the slow-motion version!
It’s also pretty obvious that he was not actually in that “manned flight”. Look at the crumpled results (expected from the shredded parachute!) in the still photographs from the second video, where you can also see him standing casually around, wearing T-shirt and shorts (rather than some protective gear), identical to what he was wearing just before the flight (beginning of video).
Your contribution to the human race has been gratefully accepted by Charles Darwin.
or yours if she is hot enough
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Just helping to cull the herd.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
He's about to become a Flat Liner, aka a future Darwin Award winner for 2017!
PlaynBass
In...10...9...8...7....
YES, it is an easy target for ridicule! I knew I was better than at least SOMEBODY
LMFAO this nigga dont even believe in no science WTF LOL
That's an understandable point, but practicality means that an individual simply does not have the capacity to master all scientific fields, trust is therefore necessary. While it's uncomfortable for some people, apparently, science is collaborative and always has been. No one can hold all the knowledge and experience needed to understand, for example, immunology, genetics, quantum physics, Nano engineering etc etc etc. You have to trust the community, the education process, the accreditation process, the collaborative process, peer review and your understanding of the core principles and the results. You review and when they all align, you trust, when they do not, you can, in your own fields, or areas where you have access to the knowledge and understanding, address the anomalies. That's reality. any other approach will lead to errors, misunderstandings and eventuality insanity, drinking your own urine and being punched in the face by Buzz Aldrin.
Gravity doesn't work? I just tested that, and things definitely fall down 100% of the time. Gravity appears to work just fine.
so
very
sad
Well, if gravity is just the illusion presented by curved space, and that anything orbiting our planet is really traveling in "straight" line, then isn't the matter occupying that space also curved, and likewise actually "flat"?
practicality means that an individual simply does not have the capacity to master all scientific fields, trust is therefore necessary.
I disagree. You shouldn't hold any strong opinion on any subject unless you can follow the reasoning on both sides. This is a much lower bar that being able to do original work in a field.
There's this odd unwillingness, especially among intellectuals, to say "I don't know enough to have a firm opinion here". Heavens for fend we not know enough! So instead a religious belief in "the science" has arisen, and that's harmful in many ways.
And, no, I don't have to trust any accreditation process, I hold little faith in such things, as any institution can become corrupt, and most are mildly so. I can, however, reasonably expect an expert in a field to also know how to explain things to an educated layman. If both sides can present compelling arguments, the expert has some work to do. (A great example of this was the talk.origins web site, where convincing-sounding arguments from creationists were debunked at length, without treating the doubter like a fool.)
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Even if he succeeds, how does it prove the earth is flat or not?
I mean even if he got say 10 miles high (52k ft) you aren't going to see the curvature of the earth sufficiently to believe the world isn't flat, especially if you're already prejudiced that it is.
OK, well, that's actually not a response to the argument I made. The community exists and has checks and balances for a reason. Because no system is perfect, but equally no individual can reasonably judge information in all fields no matter how clever and well informed they are, we must find some balance between trust and self reliance. This individualist "it's not science unless you did it yourself" stuff just acts as a drag on progress and strikes me as dangerously fundamentalist and far too concerned with ideological adherence to some sort of extreme libertarianism to the exclusion of reality. Well, that's my opinion anyway, it's a fairly strongly held one. ;)