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Apple Blocks Linux From Booting On New Hardware With T2 Security Chip (phoronix.com)
AmiMoJo writes:
Apple's new-generation Macs come with a new so-called Apple T2 security chip that's supposed to provide a secure enclave co-processor responsible for powering a series of security features, including Touch ID. At the same time, this security chip enables the secure boot feature on Apple's computers, and by the looks of things, it's also responsible for a series of new restrictions that Linux users aren't going to like.
The issue seems to be that Apple has included security certificates for its own and Microsoft's operating systems (to allow running Windows via Bootcamp), but not for the certificate that was provided for systems such as Linux. Disabling Secure Boot can overcome this, but also disables access to the machine's internal storage, making installation of Linux impossible.
The issue seems to be that Apple has included security certificates for its own and Microsoft's operating systems (to allow running Windows via Bootcamp), but not for the certificate that was provided for systems such as Linux. Disabling Secure Boot can overcome this, but also disables access to the machine's internal storage, making installation of Linux impossible.
We're taking our Open Source projects away from you. I'm ending binary releases for OSX for my projects.
Seems like the most expensive way to get a Linux system. There have to be at least a dozen better choices for less money.
T2 chip basically ensures your system will only accept insecure backdoors Operating Systems.
We will no longer build apps for Apple and never buying Apple products. This decision was made a long time ago, this T2 chip is just the beginning of computing gulags.
I mean, when you buy a Mac, you're paying a premium to get OS X. Part of the price includes that software license. Apple is willing to support Windows as an alternate bootable OS too. AND, nothing stops you from running a flavor of Linux via virtualization either, that I know of?
So who, exactly, really has a problem with this limitation? I suppose you have a very small segment of "power users" who want a multi-boot environment that lets you start Linux, OS X or Windows from an initial menu. But realistically, why bother except showing off you did it?
The main things I run Linux for these days are dedicated servers or appliances, or possibly as a way to get more life out of an older PC laptop.
If you spend a lot to buy a Mac in the first place. Why would you install Linux on it? Mac OS is already loosely based on Unix and I can see adding Windows through BootCamp for better productivity. You could also use a virtual machine to run a Linux in Mac OS too. There are options to get around the T2 issue.
If you try to load Linux, it terminates your booting. If you manage to break through the security, it states, "I'll be back" and relently pursues you until you are terminated.
when apple acts like a psychopathic, needlessly cruel company.
because thats what it has always, in fact, been.
Virtualization instead of dual booting means you need to buy twice as much RAM: half to run the host and half to run the guest. In addition, last I checked, a developer of an application that uses the GPU would be foolish to rely on performance in a VM as representative of performance on bare metal.
Don't fight uphill battles. System76 sells laptops with Linux pre-installed and so do many other vendors.
Apple's QA has really gone downhill in the last 5 years. Maybe the T2 chip is the first step towards keeping low quality software away from the Mac ecosystem.
OSX is more or less *nix with a good user interface on top.
People who want a *nix environment already have that in OSX, with the addition of a UI that doesn't suck.
Hard to imagine that many people will be very upset about this.
Meanwhile Windows 10 not only allows Linux in the same machine it now let's me run pretty much all of my Linux dev tools in Windows, without emulation, side by side my Windows apps in one windowed shell.
Just run it in a VM. OSX supports that natively and quite well.
It's literally what VMs are for.
You'll have/be:
a) A more capable system (which is easier to upgrade hardware)
b) More system for the money you spent
c) More open (ta apple) than new macbooks and you can run linux on it (ok, no macos though,so no big loss, unless you use a VM with that 64GB RAM)
d) Ports that the rest of the world uses instead of getting stuck with just thuderbolt connectors and having to use adapters to use normal USB kit.
e) A DVD drive! (though you can rip that out and replace it with a fourth SSD if you want)
f) A real keyboard without any of the butterfly key problems macbooks have
g) Trackpad, *and* nipple!
h) Real MMC card slot
i) mini pcie slot
j) It still works outside of the temperature ranges that a macbook would balk at.
(one last hint -don't buy the lenovo SSD's with the laptop, get them afterward and save $$$$)
Or get a surface if you don't like the thinkpad - It'll still run linux with a lot of prodding for drivers, and you can only get 16gb ram in it, and you can' really upgrade it.
Or get a macbook with it's BSD unix, still has a terminal, doesn't let you swap anything and has a lovely walled garden. Oh, doesn't play nice with linux
I dislike SJWs and big tech. I'm all for killing the terrorists of Gaza and muslims in general.
high priced walled/semi walled garden.It is what it is so if your after flexibility and having things your way. You might need to take what comes or maybe go a different direction.
;)
Just my 2 cents
When UEFI with Secure Boot was implemented several years ago, I warned that Secure Boot could be used to block Linux. But the Secure Boot people assured us that Linux could still boot by using a certified stub from Microsoft. That still was alarming to me because then Linux was relying on something from Microsoft, which historically had been very much against Linux. But even then, Secure Boot could still be disabled allowing Linux to be installed on the local storage device.
I never thought it would be Apple who would block Linux using Secure Boot. F*&# Apple!
Everyone was worried it would be Microsoft that would prohibit running other OS'es? Seems Apple picked up on their cues.
A beautiful one line summary! Bravo!
Chrome books do essentially the same thing.
This argument isn't remotely new. It goes back at least as far as trusted platform computing. And maybe as far back as the Clipper chip which was the primordial TPC mutation. It even has shades of the original 68K mac rom code.
The tension is who owns the computer if hardware prevents unsigned software from running in trusted status?
If the user does then viruses can never be stopped and evil users mean platforms can't be trusted on a network.
If the manufacturer or govt controls the signed boot chain of trust then you don't own the computer but for most people this level of control isn't important. And the benefits of having the safety of a trusted platform are overwhelmingly positive
The good news is that both macs and chrome books support VM like enclaves that suffice for most of the cases it matters.
So we're left with edge cases where those people can just buy a machine without it.
Even if there were no commercial advantage of TPC it still was the inevitable security model. We had a lot of years to find something better and no one has that I know of.
The danger is creeping vertical integration of walled gardens that won't inter operate. That is where the commercial benefit lies. Not the signed boot
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Why can't you just run Linux in a VM?
Exactly.
You'd think that people with the skills to install Linux would realize that there's more than one way to install Linux on a computer. There's several quite capable VMs that I'm aware of with excellent support for running Linux on macOS. There's Parallels, VMWare, VirtualBox, just off the top of my head. I suspect that in no time we'll see ESXi get signed for Apple hardware for the people that take things up a notch on virtual machines, like myself.
If the goal is to test software on multiple platforms then I'm a bit doubtful one needs to run on the metal anyway. The only things that I can think of that need that kind of access to hardware would be drivers, and someone is not likely to write Linux drivers for Apple hardware this quickly except for things like getting it booting, which is exactly what people are working on right now.
Dual booting is for chumps. If you can't dig up real hardware or figure out how to run a VM then you are simply getting ahead of yourself. Make it work on the hardware and OS you got, then worry about making some money or dig through some university dumpsters for some hardware.
This is a made up problem since the hardware just came out. If this persists for a while then I might see an issue. My guess is someone figures this out next month but Slashdot won't post it because it's news where people can't go on bashing Apple.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
OS X is a modified version of BSD Unix. Just pop up a terminal in OS X and you have a good old Unix shell.
Linux on a new Mac — why?
Dual boot macOS and MS Windows and add a Linux virtual machine. You can develop for pretty much anything on one machine at that point, those three desktop OS plus iOS and Android.
I've never used Bootcamp...don't see much point in it when VMs are a lot easier to deal with.
Better performance and compatibility, better access to hardware. I agree that many apps won't care but at times it does make a difference, ex Windows based games, Windows based engineering software (think CE EE majors etc), ...
Most of the big distros have a signed bootloader that will work.... hell M$ even supports this under Hyper-V to boot Linux with UEFI.
The reason people might want to buy a Mac, but still use Linux is easy. Apple might be on the approved hardware list at work.
To someone used to Linux, the Apple-BSD shitty GUI is a huge step back. No control. No flexibility. Just what Apple thinks you need ... and they don't consistently patch all the CLI tools for security issues.
But Apple could be on the APL whereas Dell or System76 or other options might not. You couldn't pay me to get an HP. Been screwed over by them too often for not following the EFI standard or for removing CPU-supported options from the BIOS. Acer too.
Personally, if I'm spending $1000+ on a computer with someone elses money, I'd get a Dell XPS 13. For my own money, I'd get a hackable chromebook and build a Ryzen 2700 box for under $1000 total. But that is just me.
Macs are not hardware where you can run whatever you want on them. They are closed. You get to run exactly what Apple chooses to let you run on them.
If you buy hardware like this, do not complain if the hardware vendor does not let you use it.
If you want nice hardware made to run Linux with no worries about compatibility, buy a System76 laptop (no affiliation). The specs are better, the hardware upgradable, the system approachable from a HW standpoint. Why buy a locked down Mac to run Linux. macOS has gotten worse over the years, not better. If I want a unix-like OS, macOS is not what I think about. I think of running Free/Net/OpenBSD on a laptop that allows me to change things around. I have an iPhone only because the Android landscape is balkanized beyond belief and unless you buy the iPhone-priced Pixel 3, you are left without updates in short order.
Gotta work together to kill off the competition.
While this isn't good news for Linux want-to-be's this is good news for knowing that your Apple computer is a bit more secured than the hardware that runs Windows and Linux. I normally look at these articles and complain against companies that limit your usage of equipment that you bought. But this is one case that I agree with Apple. If you want to buy their product you know well in advance what you are buying and what you are not buying. If you want an insecure box that will allow any one, including your government to boot up any OS than buy a Dell or ANY Chinese product with the security holes already built into the mobos.
And of course, Microsoft is still the same old Microsoft.
It's getting crowded in that particular corner of hell.
You are thinking short term. Think long term, this affect future resale value. This affects if it will be even usage able in 3yr or 4yr or.
I guess you like not owning any thing
Apple wants to dictate how you can use their devices. Film at 11.
Beware of Sales Reps bearing gifts.
Currently I can put Linux and Windows on my Mac and develop for any of them without the overhead of a VM - I can do everything on one laptop. Once this T2 thing hits I can only really use OSX and Windows. The BS part is that Apple went out of their way to do this. There isn't a good reason to have done it it's something they are doing to give the finger to Linux users and force developers to choose between them and Linux. It's also the kind of anti-competitive shit that should be hated by anybody with even a remote understanding of how monopolies work.
Where is the information from Apple saying that if you disable Secure Boot that it revokes access to the internal SSD?
I have a number of Macs and on at least one of them I disabled Secure Boot and was still able to boot macOS and Windows 10 with no problems.
I was also able to boot macOS off an external HDD and have full access to the data on the internal SSD.
I think it's more likely that the people trying to install Linux are having problems accessing the internal storage due to other issues, such as driver problems. ALL IO to/from the SSD must go through the T2 chip - the T2 is effectively the PCIe SSD controller (among other things). If you don't speak to this chip properly, then you don't get access to storage.
Apple never seems to add any useful features, they take them away. They've taken away the ability to upgrade or repair their machines, and now they've taken away the ability for power users to run Linux on their machine.
They're coasting on the loyalty of their fan base. Enterprise-class notebooks from Lenovo, HP and Dell are the better buy, with the ThinkPad being the gold standard of any laptop IMHO.
The only bad thing about PCs is that they predominately run Windows 10, but then again, one could easily format the drive and run Linux or in some cases, Windows 7.
Apple has you by the balls AND has a finger up your ass
dual booting is NOT for chumps.
case in point: I was dealing with a guy in my company (at a remote office) who was doing network testing of our embedded hardware and he was running a windows box with linux on top of it in a VM.
FOR NETWORK PERFORMANCE TESTING.
fuck! he was serious and had no idea that this was not the proper way to test for networking thruput, latency, jitter, etc. the vm layer will invalidate ALL tests you do. its not a pass thru layer at all, not when I'm trying to quanify jitter and latency thru a network router.
the ONLY valid way is to boot bare metal linux (using windows is beyond stupid for networking, even today) and run the rfc tests that way.
VMs are great for some things, but they are NOT the only way to get things done, and for many tasks, its entirely the WRONG tool.
chump - LOL. wonder if mr. chumpmaster learned anything from this post. (nah, unlikely.)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I'm still pretty sure dual booting is for chumps. Let's take your example.
If the guy needs Linux on the metal for running network tests then run Linux on the metal. He can run Windows in a VM if he needs that for things like e-mail and office apps. If he's doing work where he needs both Windows and Linux on the metal then he needs two computers. It's not like a computer is an expensive piece of hardware any more. If the company can't be bothered to get him the hardware but hobble him with reboots on a regular basis, as well as supporting computers with two operating systems installed, then they are penny wise and pound foolish.
Even then there are ways to pass through the network hardware on the computer to the VM. One easy way that most every virtualization package I've seen supports is a USB pass through. The freeware VM packages might throttle this to 100 Mbps speeds but the payware stuff will pass through at gigabit speeds. There's even PCI pass through on some VM packages if USB is insufficient.
If you are dual booting for something as trivial as what you describe then you are doing it wrong. It sounds like the guy is an idiot for hosting Linux on Windows instead of the other way around.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
I ran Linux bare metal on my late 2013 MacPro. I started to migrate away from MacOS when Apple dropped OpenGL support for their own Metal API. The software investment that I had my MacOS was basically Final Cut Pro X. Everything else I ran was free. I also write code.. I ran Linux VMs for the server backend and did the Development work in MacOS, but again using a free IDE.. Atom is awesome! I was coding with OpenCV and wanted to use an Nvidia eGPU. I picked up an Akito Node and a Nvidia GTX970. I also wanted to run Linux as the host OS and run MacOS as a guest with virt. the IOMMU on the Mac hardware is hobbled. The firmware cripples the capability. Wow.. I didn't pay full price for my 6Core MacPro but man.. I really got pissed with Apple. I ended up buying Hades Canyon NUC. 500GB NVME SSD, 32GB dual ranked memory. I as able to use my Thunderbolt2 JBOD that was attached to my MacPro. Also my Akito Node egpu runs flawlessly with it. Ubuntu Bionic Beaver runs great, The egpu passthrough works great with Virt.. Virtualbox it doesn't but I think it's a Virtualbox issue. KDE Plasma 5 is slick., I configured Ciaro-Dock, Breeze Dark Workspace Theme with the Diamond Desktop Theme is WOW!. I've got all my SDR software working, GQRX, CubicSDR, Pothosware.. all works great! Now as for video editing I need to make a decisiion between Lightworks , Divinci Resolve, or KdenLive. They are all great! My AMD Vega and my Nvidia GTX970 work well. I was able to configure KDENLIVE to render with my eGPU. I am currently using KdenLive for my home video projects. Bottom Line is Apple, I am done with you!
Network troubleshooting and scientific apps are some of the main reasons people dual-boot Linux
You are thinking short term. Think long term, this affect future resale value. This affects if it will be even usage able in 3yr or 4yr or.
How many computers have you kept for more than 4 years? I'm guessing not that many.
I buy nice computers and so I tend to keep them running for 4 or 5 years. As I've been an laptop user for nearly 20 years now I'm on my 4th new laptop. I get mocked for not buying computers more often as people notice I'm running hardware that's 3 years old. My brothers got in the habit of buying a new laptop nearly every year because in that time they find it getting slow for their needs, wear it out, or break it. I broke one of mine, busted it up real good on it's 3rd year. It happens. I was a bit upset with myself but I picked up the pieces, was able to get my data off of it, bought a new laptop, and moved on.
More often than not a 4 year old computer is worthless. I'm sure a high dollar system can be very useful for much longer but it will be relegated to secondary use, given away, or sold off for pennies. As I sit here in my office I have six computers booted up in front of me. That's because I'm a code monkey and pack rat. I pulled a couple of these computers out of the trash because the businesses that owned them considered them worthless, there is no resale value on 4 year old hardware so that does not concern me. To me these old computers are "toys", something to play with as at their age they are slow, outdated, and something I consider unreliable. They do nothing of importance but I find them convenient. I am the outlier, as again most people would have thrown this hardware away. Even then I buy a new laptop every 4 or 5 years (except in the case of unrecoverable damage) because I need something reliable for my day to day stuff. And at that I'm even the outlier for keeping my daily workhorse for so long.
I guess you like not owning any thing
I like owning my stuff just fine. That includes my data. Secure storage on a computer means my data remains my data, and Apple just offered another layer on their hardware to assure that my data stays my data.
Secure storage is a good thing. You are merely creating a straw man to rip on this feature, something other computer makers offered for years. Now that it's on an Apple then I guess it becomes "bad", because Apple is "bad".
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
If the goal is to test software on multiple platforms then I'm a bit doubtful one needs to run on the metal anyway. The only things that I can think of that need that kind of access to hardware would be drivers
That and GPU-intensive games.
Getting access to a NIC or GPU with a VM has been possible for a long time now, and a bit of a corner case as I'm guessing few people consider this a real problem. Calling this an issue seems rather contrived.
Also, Linux on Apple hardware has always been something of a hack, hardware support was always problematic. The latest issues change nothing on this. I can recall some companies making something of a deal on reselling old Apple hardware as Linux workstations and servers. I recall one company that sold new Apple hardware this way, but losing Apple's blessing on the way since Apple would not allow an "official" retailer to sell their hardware wiped of their OS.
Running Linux directly on Apple branded metal has always been a hack. I suspect that in time this issue will be resolved, with another hack, or not. Not resolving this means having to dual boot Linux on Apple hardware with an external drive. I'm guessing that if people want Linux on their Apple computer that bad then they will simply deal with this as a minor inconvenience.
This seems like much ado about nothing.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
One easy way that most every virtualization package I've seen supports is a USB pass through. The freeware VM packages might throttle this to 100 Mbps speeds
Last I checked, VirtualBox's USB passthrough without the extension pack was limited to USB 1.1. That means 12 Mbps speeds, not 100 Mbps. The extension pack supports newer USB versions, but a commercial use license for the extension pack starts at $5,000. Which virtualization package were you thinking of?
Getting access to a NIC or GPU with a VM has been possible for a long time now, and a bit of a corner case as I'm guessing few people consider this a real problem. Calling this an issue seems rather contrived.
The whole point of a VM is to sandbox the host from the client and its hardware so direct access is not possible by design. There are many applications that require direct access to the GPU or the Network Card.
Also, Linux on Apple hardware has always been something of a hack, hardware support was always problematic.
In the days of the PowerPC architecture that was definitely the case but Apple has been using standard X86 hardware for over 10 years. Running Linux on Apple hardware is no more a "hack" then running Windows.
MacBook users switching to System76 will have to start carrying two laptops: one on which to run Xcode or other macOS-exclusive applications and one on which to run X11/Linux applications. In your experience, how practical is it to carry two laptops?
You're missing the point: Users deserve full control over their own computers. The user should decide what OSes they want to run. Treating users unethically by denying their software freedom is unjust. There are also ecological consequences others will no doubt get into which in the large affect us all. The amount of money spent on the computer is a very minor point at best.
Digital Citizen
I didn't think it would come from Apple first, I thought it would come from Microsoft first, but here it is: You're being forced to run certain OS whether you like it or not. You were all warned of this, you chose to scoff at the warning and ignore it, and now you have to put up with the consequences. If this behavior is adopted by all motherboard manufacturers and OEMs then everyone is screwed.
That and GPU-intensive games.
You're doing it wrong.
I'm not big on the GPU intensive gaming so I have little first hand experience on this but I picked up a few things on this reading Slashdot. Apple hardware has been regularly mocked for their gaming performance, they just aren't built for it. On the low end systems there's often a pretty pathetic GPU. On the high dollar systems there might be a nice GPU but they are optimized for workstation type stuff, which is apparently different than what gamers want. Then there's issues of things like VR systems needing a GPU that simply does not exist in Apple hardware, it would have to be an add-on.
So, whatever the case the Linux gamer that is concerned about GPU intensive games will not be buying Apple hardware or they will do so knowing they need an external GPU for it to work well. If one is so adamant to spend the money needed for an external GPU then adding external bootable storage for the Linux OS will be nothing. The headline is deceiving, the computers seem to be able to boot an unsigned OS from external storage. If someone is going to add an external GPU to overcome the limitations of the Apple GPU then having an external boot drive is trivial in cost, complexity, and inconvenience.
Even if the internal GPU does meet their gaming needs, and they are adamant on running Linux to play those games, then just boot from external storage while gaming. Since there seems to be a lot of complaints on Apple not putting much for internal storage (size and/or speed), making internal drive upgrades difficult to impossible, and/or a custom build with a larger drive from Apple being expensive, I'm guessing that external boot drives for the Linux on Mac gamers is the norm already.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Im running a Vostro 1500 from ~12 years ago. Dual core C2D 2.6GHz, 4GB DDR2, SSD.
Which virtualization package were you thinking of?
All of them.
Unless you are running some really odd hardware then there's a way to pass through the network to the VM at full speed on every VM package I've seen. I'm guessing I've seen a lot of them but not all. If the speed of the network is critical, and you need it for an OS in a VM on a Mac, and this is for mission critical work at a for profit business, then I'm guessing one just needs to suck it up and open up the wallet a bit for the right software. I double checked VMWare's website because that's what I use on my laptop and they say VMWare Fusion supports USB3 speeds on pass through. That should be good for gigabit Ethernet on any USB3 Apple computer, and quite likely 10 Gbps for any Mac with USB-C ports and the right adapter.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Not sure if this should be considered fake news or ignorance. What Apple have done is no different that any other device shipped with Secure Boot enabled by default, and it is just as configurable.
Simply boot into MacOS via recovery mode and from there you can use the Startup Security Utility to configure the boot requirements by selecting
a) only MacOS to boot,
b) any signed certificate such as Microsoft's UEFI certificate which is also used by some Linux SecureBoot systems, or
c) disable the check completely.
https://support.apple.com/en-u...
Why can't you just run Linux in a VM?
Exactly.
You'd think that people with the skills to install Linux would realize that there's more than one way to install Linux on a computer. There's several quite capable VMs that I'm aware of with excellent support for running Linux on macOS. There's Parallels, VMWare, VirtualBox, just off the top of my head. I suspect that in no time we'll see ESXi get signed for Apple hardware for the people that take things up a notch on virtual machines, like myself.
If the goal is to test software on multiple platforms then I'm a bit doubtful one needs to run on the metal anyway. The only things that I can think of that need that kind of access to hardware would be drivers, and someone is not likely to write Linux drivers for Apple hardware this quickly except for things like getting it booting, which is exactly what people are working on right now.
Dual booting is for chumps. If you can't dig up real hardware or figure out how to run a VM then you are simply getting ahead of yourself. Make it work on the hardware and OS you got, then worry about making some money or dig through some university dumpsters for some hardware.
This is a made up problem since the hardware just came out. If this persists for a while then I might see an issue. My guess is someone figures this out next month but Slashdot won't post it because it's news where people can't go on bashing Apple.
It makes more sense to run Linux on the hardware, and to use VM's for other O/S's. One has far more control over one's box with Linux -- as far as I am aware, neither Microsoft nor Apple allow people to both view their source code and to complete modified versions, with rare exceptions.
So using a VM to run Linux is not an appropriate solution.
I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro made in 2007. What's your point?
This computer has a dead battery, a dead optical drive, and is developing lines on the screen. I use it as a desktop through a KVM switch, largely because of the bad screen. Apple has not supported OS updates for several versions now, and I can't run most new software because of that. I keep it because it's paid for and it comes in handy for posting on Slashdot, reading my e-mail, and other light duties, without having to disrupt what I'm doing on my other computers.
I expect that the resale value of this computer is about that of your Vostro 1500, maybe $50 because it kind of runs and could be used for parts. I've seen laptops much this one selling for $20, so maybe I overstated the value of mine by a wide margin.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
So many Apple sheep trying to justify this pointless change saying you can VM. Know what is better? Just don't implement this crap at all.
So using a VM to run Linux is not an appropriate solution.
Then don't buy Apple hardware. At least not until this Linux boot issue is resolved.
I've heard two reasons people run Linux on Apple hardware. First, Apple makes nice hardware and (until now at least) Linux support was quite good. So, buy used, wait and see if this issue is resolved, or both. Second, while a person might prefer Linux they have a need to run macOS for their work. In this case a dual boot is used, or running a VM with either macOS or Linux as host and the other as guest. Running Linux on the metal is in this case merely preferable, not required.
I'm not seeing a problem here.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
What if there was a law that punished companies for behaving in anticompetitive manners? Something that'd keep business fair? Anyone else thought of this? Sherman...? Sherman...? Bueler...? Sherman...?
Gaming in a VM? No thanks.
because the manufacturer goes through a lot of trouble to prevent you from rewriting the SW on your microwave.
Sorry, I mean *your Mom's microwave".
If you can find a port to plug it into.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
December 26, 1966. I switched to Linux, never looked back. Here is my credo: It it doesn't run Linux, or if such and such is not available for Linux,
I don't do *any* business with them. Period, end of story. Bill Gates and Tim Cook can kiss my Alaskan Arse.
So you of the less than 2% of desktops are going to not buy Mac's?
So you will have an effect?
Gawd you Linux people are lame.
As if we needed any more reason to detest Apple, pull a stunt like this. 1) It will be circumvented 2) It doesn't really matter, Apple hardware is rapidly becoming irrelevant, with nothing new to contribute except price inflation. Soon will only be phones and music rental.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Re: "Not an appropriate solution"
Gee, thanks for telling me what to do, what my priorities are, what my use cases are, what my skills and tech abilities are, etc! Without you I'd be lost.
Oh,wait, none of that is true. You're just a random internet voice, and an opinion at that.
You'd also think that people smart enough to run Linux would also be smart enough to steer away from such thoroughly gimped hardware - where custom ICs are introduced to make repairability impossible by independent shops, where memory, storage and CPU are soldered on, and where.... you can't boot other OSes than the ones the mothership approves of.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
I switched to Mac when they started using Intel and i could dual boot linux. I'll now switch away that i can't.
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This has a double-edged sword though. The bad is when Apple stops supporting this machine, you can't just slap Ubuntu on it and continue using it, but you get to choose between keeping using an obsolete OS with security issues, going with Windows, or chucking the machine entirely.
I personally have tested this. At first, I set the security level to "none", booted Ubuntu, because I do a blkdiscard on the SSD to ensure that there is absolutely nothing on the drive before I install macOS. Lo and behold no drives, not via NVMe, not SATA.
I hope this is just an oversight. I would be surprised and extremely diappointed if Apple actually did not want Linux to run on their product by actively barring the UEFI shim needed to load RedHat, Ubuntu, and others.
As of now, using virtualization software is a solution, although Parallels is "meh" at best, VirtualBox has gotchas, so your best bet is VMWare Fusion Pro, which isn't cheap, but well worth it.
I also have a Mac of 2008 vintage. Battery has long since expanded and died, the hard drive has been replaced by a SSD, and it is slow as dirt. However, it does run virtualization nicely, and I always use VMs for web browsing, so if something exited the VM and nailed the hypervisor, my main stuff would be untouched.
Nothing wrong with using older equipment, as they have their place. Worst case, a Git or a Wiki server for storing misc notes, or code.
You don't have to chuck the machine. You got it to boot Linux. From the install disk but it booted. The problem is the internal drive was invisible. So plug in a different drive and install. Done.
I assume you've dealt with dead drives before. Treat it like a dead drive and move on. Not ideal, I'll grant, but not a total loss as you claim.
VMs are exactly where Loonix belongs since it's a festering pile of shit.
Apple always wanted to make paperweights. Now they have.
It's a problem because it sets a precedent for vendors dictating what operating system gets used on the hardware. If I buy a machine, I expect to be able to put whatever operating system I want on there -- after all, I own it. The "don't buy it" argument doesn't hold water when you have massive tech companies that are effectively able to force their technology on consumers. See Windows 10 for example.
Unfortunately the "don't buy it" argument is the last straw man of the apple zealots last line of thinking.
Nothing older than a Haswell CPU is worth keeping this year. Anything older doesnâ(TM)t have a fix for any of the CVEâ(TM)s and thus run in degraded performance without a bios newer than may of this year.
> It's not about running Linux on a laptop, it's about pretending to have a grievance.
Thanks for that quote straight off Apple's PR department. How's the Reality Distortion Field doing?
The processor family was never a big deal. PowerPC, X86, ARM, Alpha are/were all "standard hardware".
The real issue with Apple systems that requires "hacks" is almost always boot firmware and small but critical bits of hardware magic.
Using a USB network adapter introduces additional latency. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Dual booting costs $0. How much is your fancy payware VM? Go ahead and lug two laptops through the airport because you can't figure out how to dual boot.
Who's the chump again? lol
When they did the purchase, using a mac was not a problem, now you're saying they should not, because the method no longer works. Kinda late since they already bought a mac and set up the process to use it this way. Since you don't care about Apple's bait n switch, you will be fine with buying back so that these people can follow your sage and cogent advice and not use the mac they already bought, right?
'cos otherwise your advice is a bit fucking late, you retard.
You need twice as much ram. He was right. When you bought 16GB YOU DID NOT NEED THAT MUCH. But you did need 8GB. So instead of having headroom, you now only have as much as you really really do NEED.
I guess you HAVE to hate-on for anyone who points out how fucked up your VM idea is because your ego just can't handle being disagreed with by humans.
They say that if you do (c) it removes access to the internal storage. But you didn't fucking read because YOU hate apple being in the wrong somewhere or somehow.
So, uh... Don't install the new OS.
Works for me on my Apple IIgs! Still a great word processor after 30 years -- I just keep booting it into PRODOS!
I wonder if it will boot the NetBSD and all the open code it is based on that allows Apple to 'Think Different'. Perhaps this what Jobs meant when he said "Good artists copy, great artists steal".
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
It's common sense. Nobody forces you to buy Apple or whatever. Nobody is putting a gun to your head. Nobody is holding your family hostage. Nobody threatens you to nuke your city if you don't buy Apple stuff. I don't own anything Apple made, because I do not need or care for it. You can do the same.
Once again, Apple is welding the hood of the car shut so that no one can touch the precious internals of the Apple machine that they supposedly purchased. What do they fear? You can't buy the thing without paying Apple for the operating system, and if you decide to change it to something else (like Linux, for example) they do not lose any revenue. The only thing they lose is their ironclad control over what their customers are allowed to do with the equipment they own. It stinks, and it is not new for them. It's the reason I have not used any Apple equipment for over 20 years.
why wouldnt you have a dedicated hardware install to use for testing, after all, you're supposed to be a professional, RIGHT?
:D
Apple: "Hey users..."
Users: "What?"
Apple: "Fuck you, ha ha ha ha ha ha!"
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Who said that?
You know Linux runs games, right?
You are correct. The gp apparently hasn't read the licensing terms of the VirtualBox extension pack.
Qemu/KVM supports USB 2.0 pass through, but I haven't as yet had any luck with it trying to get one of those stupid USB hasp keys to work.
Regardless of pass through capabilities, there is always going to be some overhead of passing through the virtualization layer, even if it's slight. So the original point very much stands, that network performance testing using a VM is just not valid.
Lol, "apple trusted computing helps ensure My Data remains My Data..."
Apple marketing drone detected. Reality distortion field in effect...
It's a problem because it sets a precedent for vendors dictating what operating system gets used on the hardware.
This same argument was used back when Microsoft introduced support for UEFI SecureBoot. Apparently this was a nefarious plan to prevent competition from other operating systems and we were on the cusp of a dystopian future where the only choice for non-Apple computers would be Microsoft. Yet here we are, many years later when even on the 6th generation of Microsoft's own hardware you can still flick off that SecureBoot UEFI switch and install Linux. Because if people buy their hardware and install something else on it they don't care.
If I buy a machine, I expect to be able to put whatever operating system I want on there -- after all, I own it.
You can, nothing is stopping you.
Well, if someone has enough permissions on your system to modify the bootloader they already have access to all of your data.. This whole thing is just another way to make machines obsolete faster when the machine goes out of support..
If you want to secure your data you would do encryption, and you have a lot better possibilities there with Linux than you have with Windows or OSX.
I do remember the old antitrust case against Microsoft when they where trying to get PC manufacturers to lock down their systems with secure-boot and said it would be the only way a machine would be certified for Windows 8, or was it 10...
So being able to run whatever you want on your own hardware is lame?
No, but the trend of locked down hardware DOES force your hand.
Name an OS that isn't a festering pile of shit..
That still literally does nothing to address the additional network jitter and latency that a VM incurs.
You're definitely not a 'right tool for the job' type person. Thank god you don't admin my work hardware, I'm sure our conveyors would shit themselves and send huge plates of glass into each other thanks to failed jitter correction and latency spikes.
Let me guess, you'd run that shit in a VM too, eh? Yes, let's see you VM 8,000 industrial sensors installed in 30 different machines which run very custom processors. Good fucking luck.
Stay blind.
I buy all my new laptops from system76. Still have a netbook from 2010 that still works and surfs the web just fine. It even runs a virtualbox with windows just fine. Who cares linux has already won. IBM had to buy redhat to stay relevant. System 76 systems are just as good looking at Apples IMO.
"More often than not a 4 year old computer is worthless."
You are so utterly wrong it hurts. The hardware hasn't improved very much in 4 years, let alone ten. Hell, I still run a dual core Pentium 4 (the rare 64-bit one) and Windows XP, and besides a bit of fucked bloat from internet assholes that can't make a simple webpage using HTML or overly-bloated games, almost everything I want or need to do just works. Ditto the E7500 sitting in my kitchen. Ditto the 2009 HP laptop sitting under my living room TV.
Hell, the platinum and gold from the components alone in those machines is worth a little bit of money (the platinum coating on the spinning rust drives moreso than the gold.)
Any computer system that CAN run Windows and Apple iMacOS-X (or whatever they’re calling it this week,) but NOT GNU/Linux is, as far as I’m concerned, defective by design.
Yet another reason added to the growing stack of reasons not to buy anything from Apple ever again.
When my current crop of Apple devices is gone, so am I, even if that means having to buy things to replace ones that I currently have, even if they still at least sort of work. At that time, they’ll get replaced anyway, and sold off if they’re still worth anything, which I doubt, since Apple’s insane pace of cranking out new, and marginally improved or differentiated products with different names just means their old stuff goes obsolete faster and faster. At this point, you’d be an idiot to buy anything from Apple, as it’ll be obsolete before you even get home.
Yeah, Apple might not miss me as a customer, but if there are enough of me, they will eventually feel it and it will be too late then, because Apple is going to have to wait until I get Alzheimer’s for me to even consider buying another thing from them at this point or in the future. Not sure I’d forget even then how much they’ve been pissing me off.
Come to think of it, pissing customers off is a great way to ensure you never see them again. Case-in-point: it will be a cold day in hell before I spend another dollar on a Microsoft product, give AT&T another dime, or Sprint another nickel, or any one of a dozen or so other companies, another goddamned penny. Apple has joined that list of companies ineligible for my further patronage.
You build shit that’s broken on purpose, and you don’t get me as a customer. Maybe I’m alone in this, but somehow, I kind of doubt it.
Apple is rotten to the core, probably because it’s riddled with worms.
RIP, Apple.
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
"Drawing hacker's attention" ;P
Can't wait the next Chaos Communication Congress...
Dual booting is for chumps.
Translation: "I don't personally have use for it, and since I'm the only person who matters and am omnipotent, anybody who does things in a different way than I do is a chump"
Seriously dude, get off your high horse. I'm glad that you're so self important and all to be unable to consider anybody elses situation, but it does make you a bit of an ass.
If you've ever done actual development you know you always want to run on the real platform and not a virtual one. I'm sure you'll counter "name one situation blahblahblah", and that's just it, I can't. It's always some bizarre situation that you could never predict. Some sort of timing situation or oddity that you just can't predict. We had one where there was a bug in the CPU that if a particular feature was enabled it would cause occasional bit flips. The VM didn't allow this flag to be enabled. I can't even remember what the flag was, I just remember it was a motorolla PPC chip. Shit gets weird in the real world, you should try spending some time in it occasionally.
Yes we are all aware of VM's and use them whenever appropriate. The problem with VM's is that they don't have direct access to the underlying hardware which means that you can't use them for applications requiring low level access to the Network Card or the GPU.
Which makes a VM the perfect place for 95% of your applications.
Very few applications now will benefit from running directly on tin, and most are very specialised.
I don't even baulk at running SQL servers in VM's any more. Hypervisors losses are negligible and as long as you've got fast storage to host it on, you'll never see any issues.
If you do need to run your application on tin, you've got plenty of options besides a Mac. I bought an Asus in 2016 that had the same spec's as a Macbook Pro. The only differences were:
1. I could upgrade my own hardware (came with 8GB of RAM, I upped that to 12).
2. It cost £750 not £2,600.
I dual boot Windows and Linux, Linux Mint installed without an issue.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
That eases, but now the laptop user has to buy a cellular data subscription for the System76 laptop with which to remote into the MacBook or vice versa. That still costs hundreds of dollars per year.