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National Parks Face Years of Damage From Government Shutdown (nationalgeographic.com)
When the government eventually reopens, park experts warn reversing damage won't be as easy as throwing out the trash. From a report: National parks are America's public lands, but right now they're America's trashcans. That's because the U.S. federal government, embattled over funding for a border wall, has shut down, leaving national parks open and largely unattended. Since the shutdown began, brimming trashcans, overflowing toilets, and trespassing has been reported at many parks locations. "Never before have I seen the federal government tempt fate in national parks the way we are today," says Diane Regas, president of the Trust for Public Land. "It's not about what has happened already. It's about what could happen if you don't have the appropriate staffing."
According to the National Parks Conservation Association (NPCA), staffing varies by park, but some 16,000 parks service employees are furloughed, leaving a small number active for policing and security. The government shut down three times in 2018, but only three days last January and less than a day that following February. As of Friday, the government had been partially shut down for 13 days. Further reading: Government Shutdown is Putting a Damper on Science in Seattle and Elsewhere.
According to the National Parks Conservation Association (NPCA), staffing varies by park, but some 16,000 parks service employees are furloughed, leaving a small number active for policing and security. The government shut down three times in 2018, but only three days last January and less than a day that following February. As of Friday, the government had been partially shut down for 13 days. Further reading: Government Shutdown is Putting a Damper on Science in Seattle and Elsewhere.
I'd expect something like this out of a third-world nation, not a world-leader.
How quickly you've fallen from your world power high in the mid 1970s.
SAD. But a few Boomers got rich so FUCK YEAH!!!
Like Roosevelt did, create a new CCC, or you could use community service sentences to do the work.
If there are arrests for trespassing... sentence them to work in the parks.
The horror!!!
;)
The National Parks have not be fully staffed for 14 days with more coming. The damage will last for generations!
from the article
Lamfrom says the full scale of the problem is yet to be determined but clean up timelines will range in length. "Some [efforts] will take weeks or months. Some will last generations. Some may not be able to be fixed."
Just my 2 cents
The historic tower in the Trump International Hotel in Washington DC is a national landmark. It's under the control of the park service. There are still National Park Rangers there keeping the tower open. Total coincidence they found money to do that, based no doubt on a dispassionate assessment of needs.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Since the National Park service changed their policies since 2013's shut down, they've been tracked pretty heavily throughout the news cycle. It's one of the bigger and more understandable parts of the shutdown facing the public, especially during the holidays.
They've covered the parks staying open, the lack of maintenance, volunteers cleaning Joshua Tree, Joshua Tree getting overwhelmed and shut down, Yellowstone's access roads closing (although not technically the park) because of snow, the deaths that have occurred in the various National Parks, etc.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Unstaffed national parks are great. I brought a chainsaw and now I have the makings of a dozen giant redwood tables. It would have cost more than my house to buy them from a legit wood shop.
Thanks to Trump, national parks are free of job killing regulations being enforced by the fascist fat car park rangers. I'll go out this week and get a giant slab of oak with the flatbed too.
Fun for the kids too, they can use the four wheelers and carve donuts on the worthless alpine prairie moss instead of gunking up the engine like when they do it on the dunes.
from what I remember trump promised the US would not be paying for that wall as Mexico would.
Yeah, but we're not talking about Washington D.C., we're talking about national parks.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
When someone breaks into your house to throw a squatter party, is your house left unattended or filled with trespassers? Idiot.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
https://www.reddit.com/r/Polit...
bickerdyke
So let me get this straight... you're miffed that people didn't take YOUR feelings into account while you don't care for the feelings of others on this matter whom you'd be disturbing.
Yeah, I have a hard time feeling sorry for you.
I probably would.
You probably would, too.
But if you would, wouldn't you be pissed too, that you had to do what you already paid your government to do?
bickerdyke
The narrative is the same on both sides. The shutdown is bad and it's the other side's fault.
Personally I don't care, I don't work for the gov't and I don't visit state parks.
Saving a bit of money might be just the thing after the billionaire tax breaks and $12B farmer bailout.
If Trump really, really, really wants it. He can pay for it himself.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Most public parkland is self-funding through a combination of volunteers and usage fees.
Pit toilets, the most common kind, in most parks can go a year without maintenance.
And guess what happens in the off season, which it currently is. Nobody's there anyway. The iron ranger* is their best employee and he is on duty.
*Avid outdoorsman slang for the daily usage fee/trail fee/parking fee box. You write out some info on an envelope, add money, and drop it in the box. Maybe a federal employee will collect it and check if you paid the right amount one day a week. Maybe.
Drones can scare off birds, which would piss off OTHER photographers going to the park for bird-watching purposes. An inability to think up interesting shots has more to do with a lack of artistic vision than a lack of options.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
It's clear from his post he favours compromises so presumably he'd want the insertion of just half the drone into his backside.
Illegal immigrants hurt parks more without wall. Build the wall!
+1 Funny,
+1 Insightful.
+1 Informative.
+1 Underrated.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Trump asks for $5billion to waste on a stupid wall he promised we wouldn't have to pay for.
"oMg TeH LiBtaRdS aRe dEmANdiNg mOrE $$$$$ frOM Urrr pOkkITS!!!"
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
makes me sad that a great piece of nature can't stay clean for a few days unless there are paid people who clean up after the visitors - the real trash are the humans leaving their trash behind.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
But it won't save any money. It will lose the federal government money when it needs to start up everything again. There is also the tax on the rest of the economy due to not being able to access the government services they need, such as the courts. And that doesn't count the gov. employees not getting paid but having to work regardless, and the gov. employees simply not getting paid. If they are living paycheck to paycheck, they are SOL. Then there are the government contractors. Ever since Reagan, the Fed. Gov. was forced to contract out for some of its functions to the private sector. Those contractors are not getting paid. So their businesses get a hidden tax due to the disruption.
The last gov. shutdown cost the federal government $20 Billion. All become some dolt from Texas (Ted Cruz) got up one morning and decided to be even stupider than normal for him.
Much of the damage is from illegal pot grows,
Uh....what? Look, California and Oregon had a lot of illegal grows in the wilderness many years causing diesel damange to water.... But it hasn't been a problem in national parks ever. There is a big difference between BLM land, state forests, national forests........and national parks.
Who would try to grow weed in Yosemite?? that's just asking for trouble. There's so much empty (and more accessible) places nearby where people actually live and grow it.........
The units of the NPS, the Smithsonian, and other cultural institutions simply will not continue to tolerate shutdown after shutdown. Many of them already have private foundations which assist their operations, and because they're so under-funded by the gov't to begin with (e.g., Smithsonian is the only Federal agency actually allowed to fund-raise because of their pathetic level of funding) and with the gov't continually using them as a political football, it's not a stretch for them all to go fully public-private and just opt out of the whole broken system. For example, Gettysburg National Military Park has done this for years now, and while their NPS staff have indeed been furloughed, the Visitors Center and battlefield are both open during this current shutdown, paid for by the Gettysburg Foundation. Some foundations at other NPS units are actually paying ranger salaries so they can keep working.
Oh yeah, and it's time for Smithsonian to start charging an entry fee. Discount / waive it for the poor if you wish, but well-off and middle-class visitors can and should pay *something*. Even our friends in Europe charge admission fees to their museums.
And, no, the states *won't* sell off and develop the parks, especially if the management is turned over with lots of strings attached.
I vist a lot of National Parks throughut the year, and most the time I don't see a soul. No employees, no visitors.
Doesn't mean they're not there. Do you see people building the roads when you go? They still got built and maintained didn't they.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Sell the parks and lower government responsibility.
To who? Who is going to buy all these parks and maintain them when there's no way at all enough people would come and pay enough to make that a profitable business. Or just chop them all down and sell the wood? Yeah, see how well that goes.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
If you care about the environment and live nearby wouldn't you step up as a citizen and volunteer to spend some time fixing the problem?
Yeah, every civic minded citizen should spend a couple hours a week sweeping the forest floor, maybe even dust some trees do. That's what they do in Finland, right? No forest fires there.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Volunteers in Joshua Tree are collecting trash from the parks, and I assume in other places too.
No reason much of the janitorial aspect of the parks could not be covered by a gofundme that would cover hiring a real janitorial company, plenty of people would be willing to pay.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well a lot of the existing border fencing does need repairs/upgrades so it would be an infrastructure project.
And the Dems are offering $1.5 billion for upgrades to border security and infrastructure. But Trump has to have his Great Wall of Trump. All this shut down is going to do is cost us more money. All the people who worked during the shutdown will still get paid. All the people who didn't work over the shutdown will get paid (there's no way Congress will let hundreds of thousands of government workers go a month without pay). And then we will have to pay for the overtime for every department to clear weeks worth of backlogs.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Sell the parks and lower government responsibility.
To who? Who is going to buy all these parks and maintain them when there's no way at all enough people would come and pay enough to make that a profitable business. Or just chop them all down and sell the wood? Yeah, see how well that goes.
Zinke had quite a few people lined up before he ran off to avoid investigations (which may still happen anyway). Of course, the new owners didn't plan on keeping them open as national parks, they want the lumber/mineral rights, etc.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
And Obama said that under Obamacare you could keep your doctor.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I'm sorry that people can't ride their bikes, hike and camp right now.
Maybe, with some of the money we recoup by tackling illegal immigration, we can rectify some of that.
But border security has been one of these everpresent "talking points" for DECADES now.
They pull it out and hammer on it during elections.
But the second elections are over, they pack it away, to use during the next election.
And this is both sides of the aisle.
And people are sick of it.
The issue needs to be put to bed.
NOW.
If there is collateral damage? SO BE IT.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Obama promised he would close Guantanamo.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
There's already a wall around it to keep riff raff out.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Over the past decade, Democrats have supported billions of dollars in funding for physical barriers. In 2006, the Secure Fence Act passed with bipartisan support requiring the construction of physical barriers along 700 miles of the nearly 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border. Sixty-four Democrats voted the measure in the House and 26 in the Senate.
The current Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer voted for it, so did Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Then-Illinois Sen. Barack Obama praised the bill in a floor speech saying it would "certainly do some good" and "help stem some of the tide of illegal immigration in this country."
In 2013, all Senate Democrats and most House Democrats backed comprehensive immigration reform legislation, the so-called Gang of Eight bill. It included $46 billion for border security and around $8 billion to repair or reinforce barriers along the 700 miles of the border as required under the Secure Fence Act.
It doesn't make sense to waste tens of billions of dollars on the wall when the alternative is a shutdown that harms your opponent far more than you.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I could give two shits and a fuck about walking around and enjoying "nature"
If you could give a shit then why aren't you in support of the ban? I on the other hand could not give a shit about your noisy irritating photography hobby.
more money for border guards is a joke and the dems know it. the wall will slow down the massive amount of of these people flooding in daily. these people learn the guards habits and litterly run in behind them.
This is only the 3rd longest shutdown in history but now, this time, the national parks just can't handle it? "years of damage"?! Sounds like slanted news.
yep but because it was something tump wanted there going to fight it. even tho they did it themselves.in the past.
they fought to have that country and now they fight to leave it lol.
And Obama said that under Obamacare you could keep your doctor.
and people are keeping their doctors! wow!
these people learn the guards habits and litterly run in behind them.
Should be easy to catch them then, just follow the trail of trash. The money the Dems are offering isn't just for more guards, it's to repair/upgrade infrastructure as well. That means repaired existing fencing, more cameras, etc.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Over the past decade, Democrats have supported billions of dollars in funding for physical barriers. In 2006, the Secure Fence Act passed with bipartisan support requiring the construction of physical barriers along 700 miles of the nearly 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border. Sixty-four Democrats voted the measure in the House and 26 in the Senate.
The current Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer voted for it, so did Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Then-Illinois Sen. Barack Obama praised the bill in a floor speech saying it would "certainly do some good" and "help stem some of the tide of illegal immigration in this country."
In 2013, all Senate Democrats and most House Democrats backed comprehensive immigration reform legislation, the so-called Gang of Eight bill. It included $46 billion for border security and around $8 billion to repair or reinforce barriers along the 700 miles of the border as required under the Secure Fence Act.
Yes, and if $46 billion couldn't do it, Trump's wasteful $5.6 billion boondoggle won't do anything but inflate his ego. We're lucky he didn't want it big enough that his Space Force could see it.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
And Obama said that under Obamacare you could keep your doctor.
And Obamacare was patterned after the healthcare legislation signed into law in Massachusetts by that perennial liberal Mitt Romney.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
You want to be left alone. I want to murder you.
Let's compromise in the middle, you can kill yourself. This way you don't get bothered by me, and I still get to have you dead.
You know it's funny. When Obama was president every one of these Democratic party leaders in congress and the senate voted for border security measures which included a wall. Hundreds of miles of wall and fencing was built and maintained by agencies of the Obama administration and nobody called it immoral. No one was against it.
Now all of a sudden becasue it would be a win for Trump and the Republicans they're against a wall. Meanwhile a border crisis is happening and rather than commit funds to deal with it the Democrats want to give up national sovereignty rather than give Trump a win.
As for the National Parks, if there's a problem a group of citizen should come together and take up the slack. If people want to use the National Parks while they are unstaffed, because they are not closed, then they should pack out their trash, just as they would do in any other wilderness areas. And lets be clear the parks are not closed. They are the opposite of closed. Parks which normally charge for entrance have had their gates left wide open and are free to enter now. One might almost be thinking that someone has deliberately created a situation where trash would accumulate and bad actors would come in and create problems. If the parks were closed the gates would have been locked and signs posted telling visitors that the parks are closed. This has not happened.
As I say. If you are going to visit the parks now be a responsible user and pack your trash out. If you really want to help take you pickup over to a nearby park and bag the trash and cart it off. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
Your mistake is that it wouldn't be a waste.
FACT — the reason why Americans have to worry about a government shutdown is because Obama refuses to pass a budget.
—Donald J. Trump, 9 Aug 2013, 11:33 AM
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Maybe that's because they perceived this as a sufficient and adequate response. Maybe the ROI on continuing to invest in walls and fencing has reached the point of ridiculousness. Maybe America doesn't actually have an immigration crisis, and justifying continued investment in fencing to filter out hypothetical Mexican rapists is an immoral act of unfounded prejudice.
Your entire model of hypocrisy leaves out of the possibility that the previous response was a proportional response, and the proposed response is a disproportionate response. There's no two ways about this: Americans want to buy Californian fruit at a price you can only have if the fruit is picked by undocumented immigrants, without actually having the immigrants.
So you disparage the immigrants so that they have no rights whatsoever in the country where the work and reside, until you've got a de facto caste society.
Once upon a time, India did not have a caste society as rigid as the one they have now. But for some reason, there caste system solidified. Was it the people on the bottom who wanted to become permanently consigned to an underclass? Or was it the people at the top, who wanted something akin to slavery (all the benefits, few of the costs) without turning people into actual property (which is problematic, and always has been).
America's Deep South has never quite forgotten the wonderful heroine hit of being a gentrified ruling class, where you can sit in your drawing rooms and perfect your manners (and mannerisms), while some other group of people is baking in the hot sun for long hours doing the scut work. Gosh, what if you could have that without slavery? What if you could hem and howl until the immigrants had a status below dirt, and do everything conceivable to pretend to stop this, while actually still providing the immigrants with all the same work opportunities? (All the better to sate one's enormous appetite on cheap, local fruit.)
The wall then becomes a permanent monument to the notion, "well, we did what we could" and the immigrants are still showing up to do the same nasty jobs as the same low, low wages (with few benefits), well that just proves that they're lowly and incorrigible and deserve what they get.
Voila: caste system. All of the benefits, few of the costs.
I'll gladly believe otherwise once there's a vigorous enforcement effort to arrest businessmen who routinely look the other way over worker documentation (with the prospect of serious jail time for repeat offenses). Rounding up the first 1000 would be like gathering windblown apples off the ground. That would slow undocumented immigration down to a trickle at way less cost than Trump's giant monument to caste-society lust.
Problem: a sudden wave of orchard bankruptcies among hard-working, tax-paying Californian orchard owners (mostly white) would shine a harsh spotlight in the evening news cycle for many months on the actual hypocrisy here. We wants them in one way (cheap prices), but we don't wants them in the other way (affording them dignity and civil rights).
A hugely expensive wall (that still won't actually work) is just a giant branding exercise in justifying this extremely un-American division between labour and civil rights. This is not so different from the extremely un-American division between taxation and representation that once lead to a giant tea party.
But times change, and tea party rebrand themselves. Now we're more like the British society from which we once sought refuge, than we are like our forefathers (and foremothers) who bravely endured the back-breaking labour of setting up shop in a giant land of opportunity, theirs for the taking.
Obama shuts down government: He's a stern negotiator who won't take any republican shit. Trump shuts down government: Orange man bad!
Obama didn't say he would be happy to shut down the government, or say that it could be shut down for months or years until he gets what he wants or refuse to entertain any sort of compromise.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Captain America, for sure. Spiderman? Not so much.
They're all the same fucking party. That's what alot of people don't understand. It's why 3rd parties aren't allowed to get anywhere when they run, because it would show off the hypocrisy of the "2 party" system. It got worse after Bill Clinton. He pushed the Democrats so far right they became Republicans.
But Trump was very clear on numerous occasions that Mexico was going to pay for the wall. Consequently he has no electoral mandate for getting USA tax payers to pay for the wall. Heck at the last set of elections he lost control of the House so one could argue legitimately there is an electoral mandate to oppose him trying to get USA tax payers to pay for the wall. a break from his election promise of 2016.
And the Dems are offering $1.5 billion for upgrades to border security and infrastructure.
They won't allow any of that for infrastructure, it's for "technology" (that is, they plan to had it to Google and Facebook and a couple of other Dem-friendly tech companies, not sure how it improves "security," but it does improve certain Democratic congresspersons' campaign finance potential).
Anyway, $5.7 billion is needed.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Yes, and just like the wall, the barrier isn't the President's will or honesty, but rather Congress. Co-equal branches and all that. So I wouldn't call either Obama failing to close Guantanamo or Trump failing to build the wall a lie, strictly speaking. Had Congress backed the Guantanamo shutdown, I have no doubt Obama would have come through. Similarly, if Congress funds the wall, I expect Trump to at least try to build the wall. I say try only because he and his administration are incompetent and I could totally see them botching the whole fucking thing. I could also see a lot of the funds being squandered due to corruption, and thus the wall ultimately never being completed.
But that aside, the lie was that Trump promised we would not pay for the wall, and now he is demanding that we do. And unlike Trump supporters who gladly overlook the lie and actually start to pledge their own money to a GoFundMe without hesitation... I am not happy with the fact that Obama was unable to close Guantanamo. He himself has said that it's one of the biggest regrets of his Presidency. If Trump makes taxpayers pay for the wall, do you think he would ever admit regret at not getting Mexico to pay for it?
Your attempt to create this false equivalency falls apart at every single level. I think, regardless of what your political leanings are, very few people would consider Barack Obama and Donald Trump to be anything alike.
Anyway, now that I've dealt with your whataboutism... my point wasn't that Trump lied. It's Trump, of course he lied. I was primarily responding to OP's complaint about, and I quote:
liberal BS demanding more of your money out of your pocket
The fact that Trump lied about Mexico paying for the wall merely makes the irony all the sweeter.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
The Mexicans opposed paying for it. I'm sorry you're not too good at this debating stuff, AC.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Diane Regas according to Forbes:
"I am Executive Director of Environmental Defense Fund, where I direct our strategic plan and mission to address to global climate change and natural resource challenges. I am passionate about increasing shared prosperity and stewardship both domestically and internationally, while also developing scientifically and economically sound solutions. I spent five years at EDF managing the Oceans Program advocating for reforms and programs that help fisherman while also rebounding fisheries in the U.S., Mexico and Europe. I’ve also worked closely on our climate and energy projects, identifying new ways to open markets to clean energy financing. Before joining EDF, I spent 20 years developing and supporting scientifically sound bipartisan solutions to environmental challenges at the Environmental Protection Agency."
In other words, despite the last sentence there this undeniably a partisan political drive.
Really, common sense should tell you that nothing of much significance happens in the span of a couple weeks, especially when park rangers and security are still there. Most of this staff didn't even exist pre-Clinton and many state and private parks are serviced by fewer staff and less frequently on an ongoing basis while remaining great resources.
I just find it hilarious to watch you Americans bitch about a paltry $5B border wall, but look the other way when an audit of the Pentagon (which itself costs a billion a year, for the past 28 years) confirms that indeed, trillions of dollars are unaccounted for and in fact they have no idea exactly how much money is unaccounted for.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
+1 Sad but true
This doesn't belong on /. Go find a eco website to talk about this on.
So Obama was a shit negotiator?
Much as I hate Trump, this quote was never meant literally.
He didn't intend for the budget of the Wall to be paid for by Mexico. He intended the budget to be matched by trade gains. Mexico paying for the wall means the US gains enough money on trade that the wall is figuratively paid-for.
Of course that trade increase is also complete hyperbole with no backing in reality or even economic theory. The wall would be funded by US taxpayers, to no one's surprise. But no one should truly believe Trump expected Mexico to hand out cash for Trump's big ego project. That's just a strawman.
School districts do this carp all the time - "pass our desired millage or we'll just have to shut down the football team!" No diversity czar or stupid program at the school ever goes unfunded, of course, just the programs that people actually care about.
It's a transparently manipulative move.
I'm going to need a citation for that need claim.
And Obama said that under Obamacare you could keep your doctor.
Well, er, yeah, but ... but ... orange!
When I was in the Navy I actually liked the shutdowns. I had enough saved that I could keep on cruising and BOOM!
Big pay check.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Really. It's gonna take 21.5 billion to build the Great Wall of Stupid People.
5.7 billion wouldn't pay for lunch of the undocumented workers.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
So just legalize it and get over it. You'd destroy the mexican cartel's income source at the same time. Win-win.
I agree but you also need to prevent the state from taxing it at such a high rate as to keep the black market profitable.
And Obama said that under Obamacare you could keep your doctor.
and people are keeping their doctors! wow!
Why yes we have been able to keep our new doctors.
The history of state management of their lands doesn't support point. For example, the state of Oklahoma has had to severely cut back on their own parks due to budget problems. States will just as quickly sell of their lands.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
But Trump was very clear on numerous occasions that Mexico was going to pay for the wall.
So what you are saying is that you want Trump to keep ALL his campaign promises? Because I'm pretty sure you don't want that. I'm pretty sure what you want iis to obstruct obstruct obstruct even the things you yourself support, so long as its filthy republicans in power.
"His name was James Damore."
This.
Right now, the needle is pegged to the right. America needs this. It's growing pains going forward into a new global economy.
Fear prevails and that makes for bad decisions. The fear is escalating into panic.
I like what I'm seeing. Let's drill, baby drill and pollute some water.
Let's dance on the edge of a Great Depression with tariff wars.
Let's continue to move profitable businesses into more capitalistic-friendly countries.
Build a wall all around the American borders. Let no in and, importantly, let no one out.
America is suffering from brain-drain as the chaos sets in at home. People with expertise want to make money using those skills.
Continue the dumbing down of American education. Eventually, we'll grow an onion-picking work force.
Carry on with the intolerance of non-White, non-Christian, anti-LGBTQ and anti-women slash and burn.
Only after we hit rock bottom will America come to its sense.
Meanwhile, I'll be at the swimming pool. Don't call.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Is this what the Libertarians would create for us all? Trash piles, crumbling everything?
Excuse me? I'm not looking the other way on anything.
The issue with the wall is not only the cost. If it was, then I'd mostly agree with you.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
"Never before have I seen the federal government tempt fate in national parks the way we are today,"
In the history of Earth, this tempting of fate represents a few atoms' width in the thickness of a sheet of paper government management represents on a mile long historical timeline.
Get a fucking grip.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Trump has floated two (2) ideas:
1.) Get Mexico to pay for the wall
2.) Declare a national emergency and use national defense money to build the wall.
So, there's two (2) plans. How many does he need?
Congress should remove itself from discussions concerning the wall, telling Trump to implement either or both of his excellent solutions.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
For those who don't know, it is actually illegal for government workers to go to work if they are not funded, unless they are on the exceptions list. So the "government' isn't the one at fault here, it is the 435 Assholes in DC who are having a dick measuring contest and thereby ruining the country. The budget, since GW left, has been a political football, and those 435 assholes have been fucking over the US Citizenry with it just to prove who has the biggest dick.
"Governments have been dominated by the corporate entities and citizens have ceased to matter in public policy" true in
I'm arguing for the decentralization of national park management. Singling out an isolated example doesn't invalidate the argument for decentralization. What's more, the current Federal shutdown (BTW not the first and not the last) is proof that the Federal government is a single point of failure.
Interior can turn the *management* of the parks over to the states but keep the parks in a national trust. The fact is that states *love* having national parks because they bring in tourist dollars. Let states manage the parks, let them have some skin in the game.
Aside from cleaning up the trash, note that TFA says the main problem is deferred maintenance. Specifically, maintenance that was already deferred, when the shutdown started. Which hints at the real problem: the Forest Service has stupid priorities for its money. Pournelle's Iron Law has taken over: it's better for your little empire to have a bunch of GS-13's on your staff than the same number of GS-9's, but you can't send a GS-13 to empty trash cans. And if you have the choice between some of that boring maintenance work, or hiring another employee in your empire, well, that's how the maintenance gets deferred in the first place.
Private industry cleans out the deadwood, when it has built up to the point of impacting profits. Government never has that impetus. The best thing that could happen to most government bureaucracies, would be to fire nearly everyone and start over. If the shutdown goes on long enough, maybe that will happen automatically, because people will have found jobs elsewhere.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
OK. So much for the rural wilderness parks. They will survive, much as they did before they were turned into interstates through the forest with fast food joints at the viewpoints. But there are a lot of 'parks' in urban areas. And many of these facilities cannot be protected from being overrun by less than desirable visitors (i.e. homeless bums pitching tents and scattering needles).
Have gnu, will travel.
All the people who didn't work over the shutdown will get paid
Except for all those rich white and definitely not vulnerable folk part time being not paid by the hour. And I'm sure there's no impact to those super rich government front desk workers who will be getting their pay checks delayed (I wonder if the landlords will also delay their rent payments).
On behalf of all those people you allege are not affected and will be better off, fuck you.
Massive? I'm not sure that's the word I would pick myself.
Total number of illegal border crossings in the us is about 500,000 per year. With roughly 365 days in a year that's about 1400 people per day. Only about half of the illegal border crossings are at the southern border though so we're looking at 700 entries per day.
Kindly publish their actual physical addresses, so we can use their front yards for dumping trash.
Are you familiar with how a wall works? A ladder? If your border security can be defeated by a ladder, your border security is laughably pathetic. Spending $5B on security that can be defeated by your typical lower-class Mexican is the peak of ignorance and stupidity.
I've gone camping or hiking at a number of these national parks and the reality is -- they're not always that free of trash and kept well maintained, even when they have a full government staff.
I'm not saying it's a great situation having trash cans that aren't getting emptied for visitors right now ... But volunteers have already taken it upon themselves to do some of that in a few parks. It's not like you need special training that comes with the job of "park ranger" to be able to do it!
I live right by part of the C&O Canal:
https://www.nps.gov/choh/index...
This thing is over 180 miles long, and most people I know who ride horses or bicycle through it will tell you they've almost never seen a government employee doing any cleanup or maintenance work on it. People in my town are regularly organizing small groups on weekends to walk along a section of it and pick up any cans, bottles or other trash they find -- because we really don't EXPECT to wait for some Federal employee to keep it nice for us. It's a net benefit to our community to have it nearby, so we can attract business from people traveling along it who stop for a meal or even to stay overnight.
The mass media is trying to sound the alarm of how horrible a couple weeks of government shutdown has been to our parks, but I'm going to call B.S. on this one. It's all part of a concerted effort to apply as much pressure as possible to re-open government, mainly so people working for them can get paid again. I get it... Nobody likes to lose their regular paycheck. But it rings a bit hollow as being the "whole truth".
In order for those to work - you still need federal employees to manage the program, supervise it's execution, etc... etc... And in case you haven't noticed - the federal government is shut down.
Sounds good to me. They helped cause the problem, they can help fix it.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Remember also that the $5.6 billion is just the first installment. The full wall is expected to cost $25 billion (or more as government projects seem to always run over their funding projections). We could build a giant golden statue of Trump to soothe his ego and spend less money. (Not that I want golden statues of him either.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
I think you said more than you meant to there.
First, you're saying that Trump's claim that Democrats are soft on border security is a damned lie.
Second, if $46B wasn't enough for a wire fence, then a steel wall would be over a trillion.
Here's an idea. I say we allocate $200 to buy Trump a nice hat he can have in hand when he talks to the President of Mexico about the first installment for construction of the wall.
Mitt Romney? Wasn't he that RINO cuck that couldn't stand up to Obama? Why do we care what that limp noodle did?
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Just like the one in Israel. Wait! No.
Just like the one around Obama's Washington, DC home. Wait! No.
Just like...
Ah, screw it! Saying a wall won't slow people down is patently stupid. You, AC, are the abject failure.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Are you familiar with how a wall works? A ladder? If your border security can be defeated by a ladder, your border security is laughably pathetic. Spending $5B on security that can be defeated by your typical lower-class Mexican is the peak of ignorance and stupidity.
The $5B aren't enough to complete the wall. That would require on the order of $25B. The $5B thing can be defeated by walking around it.
She's been an activist in this area for a long time, so it is surprising that she did not notice the previous long shutdowns. Jimmy Carter shut it down three times (11, 12, and 18 days). Bill Clinton shut it down for 21 days (also 5 days), and Barack Obama shut it down for 16 days, So far, Trump's shutdown is tied with Obama, but Clinton's was the longest.
There have been many, here's a list:
https://www.thoughtco.com/gove...
But that aside, the lie was that Trump promised we would not pay for the wall, and now he is demanding that we do.
The fact that Trump lied about Mexico paying for the wall merely makes the irony all the sweeter.
Trump walked back the "Mexico will pay for it", I think even before he was elected (or maybe it was right after). He clarified that the cost would be offset by the increase in revenue to businesses in the US, due to his better trade deals. However, most people were probably not paying attention at that point, or didn't care, and the big picture message "Mexico will pay*" was said a lot. Without the asterisk :) But at least 50% of the country doesn't care who pays for it in any event, they just want the wall. They expect some physical barrier along with sophisticated electronics and stuff. Whatever makes it work. Physical barriers are considered (by these people) to be part of what works. And the $5B is understood to be just a beginning.
Congress is intent on not allowing Trump to keep a campaign promise, regardless of anything else. The leading House Democrats voted for walls before - that's how we got the partial wall that's already there. And $5B is (unfortunately) pocket change. It's all politics.
I think you'll find that Americans are generally more accepting of incompetence than raw ego combined with blathering stupidity.
I.e., it's about on par with Trump's desire to display a military parade.
I just find it hilarious to watch you Americans bitch about a paltry $5B border wall, but look the other way when an audit of the Pentagon
In fact, the VERY FIRST comprehensive audit of the DOD ever attempted.
https://federalnewsnetwork.com...
What's more concerning is not the down-to-the-penny accounting of what happens to be the largest and most complex enterprise in the world, but rather the amount of physical assets that are unaccounted for. Items like "missing" warehouses of chemical warfare protection suits; you know, stuff you kinda might need at any moment.
No, it would be the park visitors that dont care about the environment, If you are visiting a park full well knowing the usual services are not available you would pack your trash back out with you rather then just dump it on the overflowing trashcan.
About the only thing that might be out of a visitors control is restroom facilities. If the facilities are not locked up, then any horrible condition they might be in is once again the cause of shitty visitors not doing their part to keep them as usable as possible with limited maintenance. helping to keep them usable could literally be as simple as people bringing their own roll of TP from home. Had every visitor brought their own roll and left it in a restroom there would probably be more rolls of TP than they could use in those restrooms for the next month.
+Insightful
Really? You're worried about someone dumping sump oil in Yosemite? You do know that with the current coverage by rangers in the park, someone could do that already. And the type of person to do that, when every auto parts store in the nation will take the oil, isn't worried about a park ranger anyway. As the GP said, "Get real you asshole."
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
No. Unless, of course, that is what people really wanted.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Damn you are _stupid_. Amount withheld is not the amount taxed. It can be adjusted easily or the difference collected at tax return time.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
They can get an honest job, same as everybody.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
"ignorant American race politics"
As opposed to everywhere else which just embraces blatant racism as normal culture and pretends there are lynchings, hangings, shooting, and beatings happening everywhere in the US so you can view your bullshit as different.
It's Oklahoma. One empty flat boring 'park' is plenty. Nobody goes to Oklahoma for vacation, the people that live there just stopped wherever their wagon broke. Still have the broken wheel by the drive to mark the location.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Pick up your own trash... Problem solved and we did not need the government.
At the moment it is mostly Florida and California on the way out and nobody is particularly upset about that.
So let me get this straight...
Sorry your reading comprehension let you down, but I specifically wrote that I wanted a compromise. In this context, it means “looking at the issue from both sides and coming up with a solution that allows each side to get some of what they want.
As an example, my local mall has karaoke night every Friday. Between the horrible food court acoustics and the tone-deaf singers, it’s far worse than listening to the buzz of a drone. Know what I do? I don’t go to the mall on Friday in the evening. Perhaps this “scheduling” concept could’ve been applied to drone use as well. But hey, these are the same people who can’t figure out if you leave parks open without staff, they’ll start overflowing with garbage.
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
I remember when the now disgrace Randy "duke" Cunningham was bitching that the liberals were building a double fence on the border, because he insisted it needed to be a triple fence. That's when I figured out it was just a game about seeing which side was going to accuse the other side of doing things wrong. I thought it was crazy back then, but now it seems sort of sane in comparison.
Much as I hate Trump, this quote was never meant literally.
Are you sure? This is Trump we're talking about, so it's quite possible that he really meant and believed it.
"But Trump was very clear on numerous occasions that Mexico was going to pay for the wall."
Oh please. That logic is easy to follow. Undocumented workers are expensive, extremely expensive. They cause billions in wear and tear on infrastructure, public services, and increased medical and insurance costs. If it actually prevents some significant number of illegal immigrants from crossing then Mexico will pay those costs rather than us and thus Mexico will have paid for it. It's debatable whether or not that will happen.
The construction cost to build the wall just goes right back into the US economy. That isn't hypothetical economic growth like a tax cut, infrastructure spending is well proven out and easily projected economic boost. Normally this sort of thing has bi-partisan support for that reason. The cherry on the Sundae would be using unpaid illegal immigrant labor to build it and then tossing them on the wrong side at the end. That doesn't seem completely unlikely since Trump has been gathering them up in camps.
To bad you don't like it.
By your DMV ref, you clearly understand that I'm right.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
$46 billion or $5.6 billion could easily do it. I suspect we'll find that step two is using illegals as unpaid criminal laborers allowing them to work off their crime with public service and then when the project is complete releasing them on the Mexican side.
Complete with spreading hysteria about the Russians. As if citizens united doesn't let countries all over world influence our elections via contributions and advocacy through corporations they own and the Russians were special.
Not if they don't include sensors to detect tunneling it won't.
Trump walked back the "Mexico will pay for it",
And I'm willing to bet he walked back that walk-back. The man constantly talks out of both sides of his head.
He clarified that the cost would be offset by the increase in revenue to businesses in the US, due to his better trade deals.
Hey, that would certainly qualify as "making Mexico pay for it". If he could do that, then I'd say his campaign promise was met. But he can't. Mexico just shifts trade to S. America. Raise the tariffs on mexican goods and they'll go elsewhere. It's not saving us any money if the "better trade deal" just stops trade. That REDUCES revenue.
But at least 50% of the country doesn't care who pays for it in any event, they just want the wall.
You're a fool if you think everyone who voted for Trump (20.4% of the US population) is just fine with spending the $5 Billion+ on it. Or if you think Trump isn't losing credibility with his base over who is paying for it.
It's all politics.
Some of it is politics, for sure. And Trump is really bad at politics. So now everything is shut down.
Third parties don't make headway because elections are a winner-takes-all race. The nature of that system forces things into a mostly two-party system. This is not a new phenomena either, it's been this way since the beginning. The founding fathers didn't want political parties, and possibly were naive in assuming they wouldn't come into being.
You can have many more parties in a more parliamentary system where you get proportional representation. So even if your party is only getting support from 15% of the voters you will still get some measure of representation in the legislature. But 15% of the vote in America won't win anything. Occasionally there will be a bit of a hiccup, like the Reform Party in Minnesota, but they don't last since the wins are often based on personal popularity or as a protest vote.
Our two major parties don't have solid long lasting principles. Our parties are sort of like the coalitions that you see in a parliamentary system only the coalitions are formed before the general elections. As the public changes their outlook then the parties also adapt and change so that there's a roughly even 50/50 balance. If the Republican party splits then it's guaranteed that the Democrats will get the majority in congress, and so the Republicans put up with uncomfortable alliances (social conservatives sitting at the table with fiscal conservatives). And the same happens with the Democrats, they put up with the Green Party types as well as the more left leaning socialist types, because they need to stay competitive and maintain the 50-50 split. And when the people in the moderate middle start to waffle one way or the other then the parties react to move the teeter-totter back in line.
So we do actually have shifting political alliances, only they happen within the parties and not between parties as with a parliamentary system. But to change the status quo, a constitutional change would seem to be necessary. And that's not likely to happen.
If you are going to visit the parks now be a responsible user and pack your trash out.
Oh my gosh, we're talking about Americans here! It ain't gonna happen. People see a trashcan and thank heavens they will occasionally throw the trash there instead of on the ground. But then the trashcan fills up and and they don't know what to do. These are not serious hikers or backpackers, they're weekend tourists who don't see a serious difference between Yosemite and Disneyland.
Essential government services that are still staffed: collecting taxes.
Non-essential services that are not staffed: sending refund checks.
Drones can scare off birds
My experience flying around suburbia is that it’s the other way around. Birds will attack your drone if you get too close, so if you fancy landing in one piece, it’s best to stay the hell away from them. Plus, it is already illegal to intentionally harass wildlife.
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Some conservatives you means, the ultra libertarians whose goal is to effectively dismantle all government. That's not all conservatives though, and most definitely a small minority of voters. Even if the government were to be dismantled, it would be insane to do it suddenly instead of doing this slowly with a transition. Otherwise you get tons of soldiers suddenly jobless with no civilian sector capable of taking them all in; you'd have soldiers stuck overseas as well. The federal highways would fall apart, with fights over who actually owns them since there's no government to decide this. The states would have to set up invididual trade deals with each other while at the same time there would be no federal judiciary to smooth this over (assuming states get to keep governments).
Maybe the analogy is like going without electricity. You can learn over time how to live off the grid. But if there's a sudden nationwide blackout you'd get riots in the street.
Short: you're lazy.
Yeah, I forgot I was posting on “News for jocks, tree climbing matters.” My bad.
Seriously though, WTF has happened to this site? Modded “troll” because you find technology more interesting than hiking. This place really has become a shadow of its former self.
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Ya, Obama should not have said anything, since it is literally impossible to legislate that every single American would keep their doctor forever. The chances of keeping your doctor are about the same before and after Obamacare.
True, legalizing the pot grows seems like the answer here. Why are we treating this any differently than planting a tree?
Maybe, but not the way most places are doing it. Instead of legalizing and letting the market work they are attaching all kinds of ridiculous fees and taxes on to it that will prop up black market level pricing and keep the cartels around.
Marijuana is cheap and easy to produce in large quantities if it can be grown outdoors without any restriction beyond what you'd have on a rosemary bush. Marijuana would be maybe $1-2/lb at most if grown without restriction or special taxes and you'd need acreage to make any money off it. Just like any other produce people would grow their own only because they wanted something better than mass market. There would be no room for cartels (including domestic ones) to make a worthwhile profit.
Not an issue for federal employees, they have unions which prevent laying off unneeded workers.
You want to be left alone. I want to murder you.
Let's compromise in the middle.
You get some mental health help, and I'll try really hard not to post things that set off your illness. Sound fair?
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Massive? I'm not sure that's the word I would pick myself.
Total number of illegal border crossings in the us is about 500,000 per year. With roughly 365 days in a year that's about 1400 people per day. Only about half of the illegal border crossings are at the southern border though so we're looking at 700 entries per day.
On the northern border, people are leaving the US
It's clear from his post he favours compromises so presumably he'd want the insertion of just half the drone into his backside.
The compromise would be the person with the "drones up the backside" fetish can rule 34 that shit and pretend he's looking at me, if that's what helps him fap.
My part of the compromise is trying to keep my lunch down.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
that called not fixing the problem. once they run across they quickly dissaper into traffic normally with cars waiting for them.
maybe you should read the news more often. they are still coming across every day.
Congress is intent on not allowing Trump to keep a campaign promise, regardless of anything else.
I agree, the Republicans who controlled Congress for the last 2 years really let the President down.
The leading House Democrats voted for walls before - that's how we got the partial wall that's already there. And $5B is (unfortunately) pocket change. It's all politics.
Yeah and the Senate voted unanimously in favor of the budget, which would override a veto... Why are you holding House Democrats responsible for changing their mind but not Senate Republicans?
And the wall before was not coerced by holding the entire government hostage. Giving into the whiny (trigger warning for pussy grabbing MAGA snowflakes) motherfucker will just enable this behavior in the future.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
I'm pointing out a major flaw to your argument to decentralization. Splitting up the parks to the states don't make them better, it means there are now 50 managers of the lands. I can't see how that is better.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Oklahoma is the epitome of what's wrong with the argument. They are one of the states that wants more control of the national park lands in their state. Yet they are so badly managed that they cannot afford their current state parks.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
People might start to figure out that life can go on without those government dollars. Politicians definitely won't allow us to get to that point!
The issue with the wall is not only the cost. If it was, then I'd mostly agree with you.
You have a problem with walls? Do you live in a lean to, or does your house have walls? Why?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
True, legalizing the pot grows seems like the answer here. Why are we treating this any differently than planting a tree?
The better analogy is why are we treating this any different than distilling a bottle of bourbon?
By your DMV ref, you clearly understand that I'm right.
Because a process is slow the people carrying it out don't have an honest job and deserve to not get paychecks during the government spat? You're quite a despicable human.
Please note that it's not privately owned parks having an issue....
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
Sure thing Roman. We'll fire everyone in the government until there is only one ultimate ruler, who is accountable to nobody. As long as he holds your preferred holy book in his (naturally it can only be a man) hand that is all we need, right? The other countries that have tried this just used the wrong book, of course - they just need to change the book and everything will come up roses.
Oh wow! You responded directly to something I actually said!
I'll have to answer you after I get over the shock.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
They're all the same fucking party.
That's bullshit. It's been bullshit for a long time. There is no comity in the congress. It's open warfare now, and you better pick a side.
btw, one side is funded by Russians and Saudis.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
The issue with the wall is not only the cost. If it was, then I'd mostly agree with you.
...does your house have walls? Why?
To keep the roof up.
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
I just find it hilarious to watch you Americans bitch about a paltry $5B border wall...
Nah, that ain't it. At this point it's basically a dick-waving contest between Trump and Pelosi.
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
Not really, alcohol is actually harmful to humans. Marijuana is better compared with garlic, rose oil, or any other edible herb sold in a health food store.
Seriously with all the money and effort put into finding negative effects for decades all they could manage to come up with were results from asphyxiating primates in sealed chambers and a correlation with increased symptoms in people who already have schizophrenia. I doubt most of the other herbs on the shelf would have fared so well. Before that you had widespread availability and informal usage around the globe for thousands of years without any known ill effects or addiction. I am speaking of the substance itself, not smoking it. I'm sure you'll find inhaling combustion byproducts is a bad idea in general and it isn't a good idea to smoke most of the things we know as safe in society.
If you were to compare to aspirin to Marijuana you'd have to call aspirin a deadly toxin. There were a number of lobbies that took advantage of "drugs" and the PR at the time to get competition outlawed. Relabeling hemp as Marijuana and spreading fear amongst people who had hemp throughout their homes and no idea they were one and the same was a huge win for a number of industries including the oil industry (hemp reinforced corn plastics were a threat to petroleum based plastics) and of course the all powerful southern cotton and tobacco industries. It isn't some great conspiracy just business. It also didn't hurt that hash was far more popular among foreigners. Of course the bird seed industry got a last minute exemption because it wasn't believed a healthy seed blend was even possible without hemp seed. This is actually how the plant was saved in the US. Natural seed blends still contain hemp seed but the seeds are steam blasted to sterilize them.
Another loser in the same wars was coca. At that point the leaves were brewed into tea. The big lobby behind that being the tea and coffee trades obviously and it was a double win for them with caffeine being added to coca-cola as the new addictive stimulant. With chemicals concentration is extremely important, cocaine wasn't typically concentrated in the way it is now, therefore it lacked the same health risks and addictive properties. Highly concentrated powdered cocaine became widespread as a smuggling technique later. What is interesting is that the reason caffeine addicts aren't running around purifying the stuff and snorting lines is that caffeine is actually far more dangerous and would kill you outright with consistency if you snorted a big line. Cocaine certainly has more negative effects than marijuana though even aside from addiction, but those effects are pretty similar to what we've found with any stimulant we've given reasonable study. Logically the same would probably be true of the positive effects we've found from caffeine but nobody does studies looking for positive effects of cocaine use.
Not really, alcohol is actually harmful to humans. Marijuana is better compared with garlic, rose oil, or any other edible herb sold in a health food store ... am speaking of the substance itself, not smoking it. I'm sure you'll find inhaling combustion byproducts is a bad idea in general and it isn't a good idea to smoke most of the things we know as safe in society.
Smoking was what I was referring to.
Plus there was the observable mental decline of classmates who were heavy pot smokers through junior high school and high school. If not a general problem perhaps a developmental problem tied to age.