Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Is It Ethical To Purchase Electronics Products Made In China?
dryriver writes: A lot of people seem to think it's O.K. to buy electronics made in China. We get to buy products considerably cheaper than we otherwise would, and China by all accounts is growing, developing, and modernizing as a nation due to all the cool stuff they now make for the world. There is only one problem with that reasoning. 21st Century China has an atrocious human rights record, and almost all human rights watchdogs report that China is becoming more and more repressive each year. Freedom House put it this way in 2018: "It's worth noting that, in its attitude toward political dissent, the Chinese Communist Party has proven much harsher than the old Soviet regime of the Brezhnev era. Modern Chinese sentences are longer, the prospects for early release are far worse, and the Chinese authorities are generally unmoved by pleas for leniency from foreign diplomats." Basically, consumer dollars from around the world are not gradually creating a gentler, freer, more prosperous and more modern China at all. They are making the Chinese Communist Party richer, stronger, bolder and more aggressive and repressive in every respect. To the question: knowing what the human rights situation is in China, and that consumer dollars and euros flowing into the country from abroad is making things worse, not better, is it at all ethical to buy electronics or IT products manufactured in China?
gonna keep doing it though because my life is really just a huge list of accidents anyway
AFTER we have built the modern tech world using chinas stuff... /facepalm
Seriously, where else are we going to buy our electronics from?
20 years late question.
The Free Market does not care about ethics. Never has. Never will.
Is it a binary answer to the question? No. 1. China wants to grow, build, raise its peopleâ(TM)s standard of living (I know, this is arbitrary) 2. China is a threat to the current political norm and will destroy the status quo (I know this is also arbitrary) So... pick your poison. And this is, by now a very well trodden path of globalised angst, accept a race to the bottom fo price or live with the higher prices of local manufacture. The ethics question is banal and hides a more insipid agenda. Stoked
Natsu gusa-ya, Tsuwamono domo-ga, Yume no ato
not any more or less 'ethical' than buying gasoline or plastics made from oil from the middle-east.
Its a valid question from a western POV, however historically when was China this "gentler, freer, more prosperous"?
I think any one culture cannot impose their ideology on another and come away feeling good.
Chinese people Are more prosperous, free, and have always been gentle. can't say the same about their government but that is an internal Chinese issue.
same can be said about other cultures we seem to be at an odds with.
The world is not perfect. The United States is *far* from perfect and getting worse in many ways. But none of this excuses China from egregious rights violations so yes, there absolutely is an ethical responsibility to avoid purchasing products made in China, just as there is with Israel.
>"Is It Ethical To Purchase Electronics Products Made In China?"
Here are some reply questions: Do we even have a choice? Exactly what can I buy that isn't made in China? What is the proposed solution? Ban imports from China? Is THAT "ethical"? Drive prices up so high on products that poorer people here can't afford to buy anything? Is THAT "ethical"? Is it "ethical" to try and interfere with another sovereign nation's political and operational process? Even if we restricted trade based on "ethicality", how effective would that be? (We are far from their only market) And how much influence would we THEN have? Is there some difference between electronics/IT and any other products we buy from China? (Other than perhaps spyware, which has nothing to do with human rights inside THEIR borders).
For huge numbers of end consumers, there's not much choice. With wage stagnation and general costs of living generally increasing, the cheap Chinese-made thing is all they can afford. If there even is an option made somewhere else. Assuming the other options aren't made by companies being just as exploitative.
The real question should be, "is it ethical for corporations to outsource all their manufacturing to China?"
Electronics? No, totally unethical. For shame! Now excuse my while I go play with my totally legit Lego.
https://legoways.com/wp-conten...
Where is the data that the Chinese government is doing worse than eg during Tiananmen. Sure they have cracked down on "dissent" but that's partially because we've been politically rather quiet the last few decades because we wanted them to purchase our debt. I think China is all around better off, even though their politics still suck, society there has become markedly more "liberal" although still very much far left.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
A better question would be can you purchase any electronic products that wasn't specifically completely made, assembled or constructed with Chinesium anywhere?
Its not ethical to support any Communist government in any way.
Try nations that are more supporting of freedom.
Like South Korea, Taiwan the real China, Canada, Ireland, parts of the EU.
Design in the USA, find a better place that likes US freedoms to place a production line.
With robots and much more advanced complex design work, a lot of great nations that support freedom can be more competitive.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
You must be at least 40 to get that reference kids.
If you want to be "ethical" and avoid products or raw materials from countries you don't agree with you're going to have to live with these trade-offs.
Be naked, the vast majority of clothes are made in places like Thailand or Bangledesh.
Have no electronics. Even if they aren't assembled in China or some other country people don't approve of, your electronics are likely to contain a rare earth metal mined from some place people don't like.
Not drive a car, use public transportation, eat food produced with the above or basically do anything. All these things use the above in some manner, so you're still "unethical". You can't be pure.
So really, all you people that want to be "ethical", go live in a cave somewhere, don't bring anything with you, and don't request help from the outside world because we all rely on the above "unethical" things. Believe me, you'll be happier you're now independent in your cave, we'll all be happier with you gone.
I'm really trying my best to avoid Made in China.
Need labelmaker? Got a 1977 Dymo 1570 embosser for almost spare change. I'm not giving China (or Dymo) a red fucking cent. Refills? I buy vintage from ebay. Seriously, a few 9' rolls should last a lifetime.
Somehow I lost my 30-year old Stanley measuring tape. Instead of getting one from Home Depot (made in China) I got an old Powerlock II from Ebay. Works fine.
Need an umbrella after the handle on my Totes went to shit (and the "warranty replacements died like that too")? Bought a Fox, made in England. I'm not giving China (or totes) a red fucking cent. So what if it cost 4x what a Totes costs. It'll last 4x longer.
Where they got me is the phones. Or "new" things. But if there's even a remote chance I can get Thing X that's old and made anywhere but china, I'll buy it.
It's not really just Fuck China, it's more "Fuck the Companies that Manufacture in China, are based Here and don't even pay taxes."
That's what voting with your wallet means. It would've been easier to get these things New, but no. Fuck 'em.
I would like to think more people are thinking like this. SOme of the folks I work with do. Some of my friends do too.
If you can afford it, don't buy China. Seriously. Don't. Fuck the companies who manufacture in China where it hurts them.
This is not for everyone. Most people want it NAO NAO NAO DAMMIT! WAAAH! Fuck that. Patience is rewarded with sweet things.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
It's not like there are a lot of options outside of Taiwan or South Korea for electronics.
The real question should be "Is it safe to buy electronics from China?"
Another good question would be "Is it safe to buy food from China?" Large amounts of pork and chicken products are processed in China, with 2 boat trips for the products.
By European/Canadian standards you make the same argument that it is unethical to purchase products from the US where workers are paid below-poverty wages, may not have access to health care and can be fired for disagreeing politically with their employer, plus some types of torture are deemed ok etc. So should we all stop buying each other's products or should we accept that the best way to change another's opinion is through leading by example and discussion rather than by refusing to talk/trade with them?
Rabbi, should I buy a Chrysler?
Can you re-phrase that as an ethical question?
Rabbi, is it right to buy a Chrysler?
You heard of these people called the Uygher? Your children won't, because the genocide is occurring. The Tibetan culture is being systematically eliminated. The reason you don't see the data is because the government controls the flow of data in and out.
BDS against the Israelis is a blatant case of anti-Semitism. It's the Chinese government against who BDS should be focused.
We should be considering: whether we need the product at all; the full weighted impact of a purchase -- yes, human rights, and also environmental impacts (CO2e, minerals extraction etc), and social costs and benefits, and so on; the practical alternatives and the differential impact of each choice (eg sourcing from S Korea vs China); etc etc.
And while the choices are in the end binary (buy or don't buy), the world is more finely graded.
A lot is improving in China. This is an unfortunate side effect, but ask a starving man whether he'd be willing to shelve his thoughts on any subject for a meal. Not buying from China isn't the way to go about fixing this.
If you think that it's not ethical, then your abstinence lowers the price and someone else is even more inclined to buy. You can't will market forces away. Chinese electronics are bought and will be bought. The answer to your question doesn't matter. The question is irrelevant.
You have two options
1) Buy from China
2) Buy from Amazon, Ebay, etc from sellers who ultimately themselves buy from China
So we can either buy direct from China, or buy indirect, at a higher price, from a reseller that buys from China.
Given the choice.. I would GLADLY pay more for American products if they were available.
... for the answer.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
What choice do you have? Pretty much anything electronic regardless of point of sale is coming from china one way or another. Even for things made elsewhere most of the parts are coming from china.
I think the poster should take the log out their eye, because the US is no better! Massive amounts of homelessness, 50% of bankruptcies due to healthcare costs, something that is considered a basic human right in the rest of the western world. MUCH higher prison population per capita than any other country. The government is literally stealing social security. Gerrymandering making elections all but a foregone conclusion. Voter suppression that isn't very different than ballot box stuffing that happens in Russia. I think this is the single stupidest post ever on slashdot.
Everyone is living in a personal delusion, just some are more delusional than others.
That question leads to broader "Is international trade ethical?"
We perform international trade because products are cheaper, but one of the causes for the price the difference are different labor and environmental laws that we would not want at home.
You can justify pretty much anything with the right school of thought.
Next dumb open-ended question?
From a hobbyist point of view, I have to say that I tried to find US-manufacturers for one-offs of various circuit designs, and I couldn't do it for a reasonable price.
From Chinese manufacturers, I could get 20mmx40mm circuit boards made for about 80 cents each, minimum order of 10.
The SAME board from US manufacturers wanted $210 PER BOARD. Now keep in mind these weren't fully ready-to-go electronics boards, they were JUST the boards, no components, no assembling.
Now is it ethical to buy from the Chinese firm? I would say there's no choice in this case. There's no way 2 square inches of plastic and copper is worth $200. For that price, I want a mid-range full size mother board WITH components!!
My government takes so much of my money as taxes and wastes it on "charitable" causes. All the while jobs get outsourced and cheap labor imported to further reduce the money I actually get to keep.
Caring about ethics is for the rich.
American's sold out long time ago in order to get cheaper electronics. Companies like RCA, Zenith and others made TV's, stereo's in the US. But when China made goods were priced so much cheaper American's bought them instead. American's don't place much value on paying a little bit more for American made. People generally decide with their wallets on what they buy, and where its made isn't so important.
Need labelmaker? Got a 1977 Dymo 1570 embosser for almost spare change.
I bought a new one. The letter spacing is much wider. The labels don't look nearly as nice and the labels take up more room.
Bought a Fox, made in England
TIL. I'll lokk out for them next time I'm in the market.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Of course that is not ethical. The Chicom government's legacy is drenched in blood.
Corporatism != Free Market
But we're idiots
The U.S. should in no way do any business with communist or socialist countries period.
i don't care.
i really don't.
No. It's ethical to instead buy your products from countries built on a legacy of slavery, genocide, colonialism and imperialism. Made in America!
Tariffs? You realize that would make Democrat's heads explode right? They're all about a "living wage" and "human rights" as long as it doesn't involve anything proposed by their opposition. Though, to be fair, Republicans might have a heart attack if they realized they were agreeing with Democrats about something like that as well. NEVER COMPROMISE, just shoot yourself in the foot while trying to stick it to the other side and prove they are "wrong!"
-Proud unaffiliated moderate.
The Israelis have made it illegal to boycott countries based on ethical concerns, so it's a little late...
While you state facts...
I believe you are getting "FUCK OFF" because, let's be honest, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic and could really be considered troll-like behavior. In fact by you attempting to insert your agenda into this thread you really do more harm to the facts your speaking about because others will see this as a racially motivated comment.
Given USA is the worlds top jailer and starter of elective never ending wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives I'm down with BDS China so long as the rest of the world does the same to the United States.
The first line of reasoning is that we shouldn't have anything to do with corrupt regimes, and in fact should boycott them. That's the approach we took with Cuba. The result being that Cuba has stayed Communist 60 years with its people still mired in an economic backwater with little knowledge of the free world. Cuba's GDP per capita barely budged for 50 years until Castro gave up power, and his successor began to implement reforms, eventually leading to thawing of relations with the U.S.
The second line of reasoning is that we need to have open trade and tourism with corrupt regimes, so that their citizens become more exposed to democratic ideals and culture. That's the approach we took with China. The result being that Chinese citizens have experienced a ten-fold increase in GDP per capita in the last 45 years since Nixon normalized relations with China. And Chinese citizens, while kept in the dark about certain embarrassing domestic events, are for the most part aware of how people in the free world live and frequently even travel there on vacations.
If you believe in Democracy, then you believe that power ultimately flows from the people. And the only way a corrupt government can truly be overthrown is via the will of the people being governed, not by the influence of an outside state. The most we as outsiders can do is try our best to empower those people. So from an ethical standpoint, the question becomes: Does it help the Chinese people more if we boycott China, or if we continue free trade with them? From a strictly economic standpoint, medieval monarchies were able to hold onto power by keeping the masses in poverty, and thus unable to afford to overthrow the nobility. Modern developed nations eventually reach a point (around $10k/yr GDP per capita) where further economic growth requires the development of an economic middle class. e.g. For the U.S., 58% of the income goes to people making $30k to $200k per year, 15% to people making $200k-$500k, and those making over $500k only account for 19% of all income. As a result, it's the people making $30k to $200k who wield the most power in the country.
So maintaining free trade with a corrupt regime means it must eventually empower its people if it wishes to continue economic growth. Whereas boycotting a corrupt regime means it can keep its people oppressed in perpetuity.
Don't look down... your swastika is showing.
Things like being able to wait for delayed gratification tend to correlate very highly with poverty... surprisingly, so does average IQ and a number of other things.
Anyhow, there was never a point in replying to your racist rant. Seriously, have you been kicked off so many platforms that you just jump into random articles and post your verbal diarrhoea. How far Mr. Alex Jones has fallen that he has to resort to this.
Is it ethical to send manufacturing jobs to China? The horse is way out of the barn, not coming back. This has been debated again and again. Search for "made in USA" and try to find something you would like to buy. I used to buy cotton socks from a company in North Carolina using US grown cotton,but the place was bought and all the machinery was shipped to China. Likely bought by a Wall Street firm following cheap labor and lax or few rules or laws around the globe. To Mexico, India, Pakistan, Viet Nam, etc.
You failed at shilling. The Chinese are automating the destruction of non-conforming cultures. t its getting worse, not better.
Things like being able to wait for delayed gratification tend to correlate very highly with poverty... surprisingly, so does average IQ and a number of other things.
Don't talk about sociology when you've clearly never done anything more than cherry pick data without looking at any of the context or structural causes.
Go back to Tucker Carlson for more of your science.
Up until fairly recently, the strategy worked. We allowed them into the world of modern trade and commerce and bought their stuff. Overall, the country became more open and more modern. The strategy helped to pull about half a billion people out of poverty. Yes, we had to tolerate a highly flawed Chinese government with a bad human rights record and a lot of dodgy Chinese business practices, but nothing worse than we've tolerated from a dozen other countries we regularly do business with. Overall, the benefits were enormous.
Then something changed. China started backsliding. The most obvious symptom of this is Xi Jingping, who has actively pulled the country back towards autocracy, but there's a long list of things that suggest our "do business with them and they'll improve" strategy isn't working any more. A lot of foreign policy types are concluding that a change is needed. I've read that even most pro-Chinese economists in the West have concluded that China is sliding backwards. The carrot isn't working any more, so governments are trying a bit of stick instead. They're not going to have much luck expanding their overseas businesses for the next decade or two.
Thank you for asking this question. It is something that I think about constantly. When the reports about the poor working conditions in Foxconn factories first came out years ago, I decided to boycott Apple and never buy another one of their products.
Now, yes, I do understand that it's hypocritical to continue to hold that boycott because there are so many places that manufacture their goods at Foxconn. I have tried to only buy goods that are not made in those factories, but it's virtually impossible these days if you want to participate in technology at all. As a programmer, I feel that I have no choice but to participate, but I understand that I am in a privileged position to be able to "have to" buy these things.
Yes, I also realize the very good argument that the people moving to these "camps" (er, factories) are making better money than they would be making in their rural villages. They are able to save that money and they are able to send it back home to take care of their families. No, there is no opportunity for them to advance, though -- that's bothersome to me.
I also realize that Foxconn, because of their privileged relationship with Apple, do the best at making sure their workers are treated fairly. I've read the China Labor Watch (Link) reports and they are damning -- of all the factories. It just sticks in my craw that when Foxconn had to decide how to tackle the problem of worker suicides, they decided to build a net to catch jumpers rather than, you know, address their misery.
So, I continue to draw my little, silly line in the sand and boycott Apple products while trying to buy as little as possible from Foxconn.
That said, the overall question is something that bothers me and something that I try to keep in the front of my mind as often as possible.
Thanks again for asking the question.
remove nospam. to email!
You avoid maids in China? Are you referring to house-maids, or are you using "maid" to refer to young women in general? Why are you so scared of women?
Is ethical to buy gasoline made from oil in the middle east?
Is ethical to buy technology form Israeli companies in the Gaza strip?
Is ethical to buy from the U.S. companies with links to the weapons industry?
is ethical to buy from Japan and their whaling industry?
No one ever wonders "how come rich people commit fewer crimes?" or "why do white people commit crimes against their white neighbors instead of driving across time to the black neighborhood?"
Given that this is slashdot, I don't know what's worse. That this earlier AC is being sincere and is really that deluded, or that this is just another troll trying to wind people up.
If your worry is China's human rights record then you just better stop buying all electronics. Think of ALL the components that make up a TV or iPhone or a computer or whatever. Most, if not all, of those components were made in China.
Just because the box says "Made in the USA" doesn't mean that every part that makes up that thing were also made in the USA. Chances are all the parts are from China and the final assembly of finished product was done in the US.
You avoid maids in China? Are you referring to house-maids, or are you using "maid" to refer to young women in general? Why are you so scared of women?
Maid in Chian is a bit of an old joke in vacuum-tube hi-fi (and maybe the guitar/bass people too). In the early 2000's there was a run of tubes made in China that read "Erection Tube / Maid in Chian" instead of "Electron Tube / Made in China." If they can't even spell the fucking thing right, how do we know the complicated innards are well-made? (They weren't.)
I'm open to maids from any country, but I want my vacuum tubes made in USA, Germany or the UK, por favor. I'll take JJ from what was Yugoslavia, and Svetlana in Russia also makes passable stuff.
What did we call Chinese tubes? Firecrackers, especially 5AR4 rectifiers.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
It's 100% ethical.
Our freedoms are fake in the United States anyway. They would throw people like Manning, Snowden, and Assange in jail with secret courts and secret charges etc. etc.
Most state courts don't give a shit about your "rights". Here cops can murder people and get away with it under various "immunities". We are much more corrupt than people seem to notice. Sure the US might be *slightly* better in practice, but not by much. Not enough to establish moral supremacy, anyway.
I'd love if I could buy from the US, but we aren't competitive. I buy parts from china because the USA and our shitty "profit" obsession has made things that should be a $0.20 part a $3.33 part.
Fact is, there isn't enough competition in the states and I don't care how much propaganda you feed me. There's no reason that OP amp or transistor should be that damn expensive, it's made by a machine for christ sake.
One idiot in the incredibly stupid Credit Default Swap could do more damage than a state's worth of poverty related crimes. And then there's Bernie Madhoff.....
People who think rich people or white people or, in an stupendously ignorant display of idoicy rich white people don't commit crime or talk about it don't read any of the Thousands of newspaper and websites in the US reporting on stuff like that Every. Single. Damn. Day.
Get out more grandpa or get the heck out of the way. You've become too blind to the world around you and no longer have a purpose in it....
Why stop at just electronics. Surely if you don't want to support an oppressive regime you just don't buy anything from them.
The US mil encountered lots of Communist gov support in Vietnam and Korea from China.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I was seeing similar Slashdot posts to this one, for many years!
I am sure, I am not the only one notices this!
Again & again some people trying to send the same message to (US) public:
"Evil Chinese Government is doing this now! What you gonna do about it (US) people? Why don't you protest China? Why don't you become SJW against China? Blah blah blah!"
IMHO, the people trying to manipulate/brainwash the (US) public (for their own SJW stuff), should not even try to talk about ETHICS!!!
There are over a billion people in China!
If their government is doing anything they don't like, how about they protest it themselves?
Don't forget that the percentage we incarcerate in the US is the most of the industrialized nations and 5x the world average.
Having spent a few years in prison myself, I can say that there are ways in which our system might be worse than others. Inmates in the prison I was in would do almost anything to be sent to a work camp instead - not because they could make more than the $0.25 an hour or so that we made working as dorm janitors or kitchen workers, but because they could do real hard labor outside for many hours a day. Having virtually nothing to do is unbelievably torturous after two or three years. Many would have gladly built things for free just to get out of the dorms. The few hours we got to spend in the yard were so precious that we gladly went out rain, snow, or shine despite the complete lack of shelter in the yard.
The prison I was in used to host sports events with local community leagues, send prisoners into the community to do free work, and actually help in reducing the isolation from family and society in general that can damage a person to the point they have no possibility of recovery after prison. Today, that is mostly gone. Inmates are charged as much as $10 for 15 minute calls to family, limited to 4 hour visits once a week even when family had to come 1000 miles to see them, and the performance of charitable work in the community was stopped because community tradesmen complained that it took their business!
I also saw many cases where inmates were intentionally placed in situations that would cause conflict so that they could be sent to the hole and have their good time credits taken.
The problem seemed to be that those running the prison did not truly believe in reform. So they did everything possible to make sure inmates would stay as long as possible and return as quickly as possible. There is a lot of room for employees with opinions different than the legislators to extend sentences without explicitly breaking laws or policies.
Thankfully, I was not in need of reform. I had no troubles in my life prior to the events that sent me away, no trouble avoiding conflicts and promoting peace in prison, and have had no trouble in the years since.
Sadly, many I left there have gotten out and returned since. This is despite the fact that only about 10% of the people I met behind bars were violent or bad in the ways I had expected. In most cases, their return was due to nothing more than lacking the skills to deal with life's everyday conflicts . They are good at heart but inept at navigating social and other life complexities. Some even returned intentionally to get health care they couldn't otherwise afford. Yeh, we really have the right to talk.
"is it at all ethical to buy electronics or IT products manufactured in China?"
Is it at all possible to buy electronics or IT products -NOT- made in China?
>to find components to make products
is it at all possible?
Is it at all possible that enough people will make the effort, and accept the additional expense?
I'd love to be able to say yes to any of the above, but at my advanced age, I sadly submit that ain't gonna happen.
When you buy chinese cheap sh1t, you support the insane guy that finds Winnie the Pooh offensive (besides giving away all your secrets to his minions).
except you don't. You don't live in China and probably never visited there. If you do, your post is motivated by something else.
One can't even get proper news about the US in the US, just look at the news outlet there. And you expect what you hear about China written by western media isn't propaganda?
Capital will flow to where itâ(TM)s used most efficiently. That place is currently China. Nothing will change until the US fixes the bloated, corrupt, billionaire friendly government we have.
My healthcare costs more than an average worker in China makes in a year. Any kind of non-automated manufacturing in the US is dead until we fix that.
But with good and bad alike gets rich along the way.
Nearly impossible. Almost all of the electronic components are made in China now. I'd say nearly 100% of the TVs, cellphones, a lot of the home appliances, pretty soon, Chevy passenger cars.
How can we buy electronics that are not made in China?
Our U.S. companies have shut down manufacturing and moved it to China in the majority of consumer products.
I can't believe this BS.
Who are these people who think they can preach to China ?
Are they from a country with a huge percentage of its population in jail ?
China has had a civilization for >6000 years.
They generally DON'T start wars try to tell the rest of the world how to live.
They are incredibly smart and industrious.
The have universal health care, guaranteed employment, and very low crime rate
Sure they have problems, but they have shown time and time again that they can solve big problems.
Most all of us could learn a lot from the Chinese, if we would just get to know them.
Hahaha ! you american dudes are so funny. Hispano were in your country before white people and blakes are there as long as you are. Then all those people share the same culture and religion...
Now come to Europe and see how diffrrent people are living together. people with different culture/religion like Indian in UK or Arabian in Fr,Ger,It... With colonial past and wars from the last century which make some of them hate the white.
Just stop complaining.
- I buy refurbished whenever possible. On the upside: It's not only ethical in more ways than one, it gives you neat bargains aswell.
- If I buy new, I see to it that the gear will/could last me 10 years - at least in theory. Point in case: My MB Air is from early 2011 and still is useful.
- I always try to buy hardware that I could control or at least can usefully run offline if push comes to shove. With other things equal, I prefer hackable hardware over regular hardware.
I presume this approach will become more important to me in the future (Stallmans "Right to read" comes to mind). There might even come a point in the near future where I stock up on older refurbished electronics in order to be able to control it when things go south.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Just look at the record. They dropped two nukes on Japan. They went on to destroy and rob Iraq for the alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction that were never found. Recently they have destroyed countries in the North of Africa and Syria. And just look at their president. Definitely not ethical to buy electronics from them.
I tried to buy US made stuff , but no luck ... ... airline restrictions ... ... Chinese products Works good.
sellers claimed ITAR, Dept of Commerce restrictions, distributor restrictions
so I bought what is available
How many "US made" products are packaged and labeled in the US but manufactured in China?
Solar panels? Batteries? processors ?
Stats wise, you should buy the stuff.
I mean their egregious rights violations are not nearly as bad as during cultural revolution or during their civil war - so clearly buying the stuff is actually _working_ to improve the situation.
Even their attitude towards piracy and rights violations is "better" than it has ever been.
so. there's that. it's actually kind of working.
however, as it is pretty hard to buy something that wouldn't have anything from china the whole question is kind of moot. It's also pretty hard to buy something that doesn't somehow(upline licenses, manufacturing tools,brand licensing, patents or whatever) benefit USA as well.
How would you go on about buying non chinese parts electronics? sure you can buy non chinese assembled stuff.
but it would be actually far easier to start buying non-chinese wrenches than cordless drill that didn't have any chinese parts in it.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Ooooh, that's a real tricky one, isn't it? I guess it depends on how much the slavery, oppression, and murder makes your life easier.
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Are you at all familiar with Chinese history? Even modern history under Mao Zedong? What do you think it was like living though the Cultural Revolution or Great Leap Foreard? Perhaps in the 80s after the Tianemen Sq protests?
No foreign power imposed the authoritarian system (in China) on the Chinese. The Chinese themselves created it.
We should condemn the Chinese people.
Get more info about this issue.
No foreign power imposed the authoritarian system (in China) on the Chinese. The Chinese themselves created it.
We should condemn the Chinese people.
Get more info about this issue.
China does not make use of ex-territorial camps to imprison people by breaking all known international laws and customs.
China does not produce people like Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos or that Apple Turtneleck dude who amass a wealth of a small country off the back of monopolies and business malpractice and workers who actually do the work.
China does not engage in democracy wars around the planet so it can pillage and take raw materials and energy for free (and in the process destroy civilisations).
China does not impose pollitical will on others not does it tell other countries how they should conduct their affairs.
China does not charge you money if you get sick.
There is however one country that does all these things.
I see a question of ethics being raised in submitting a post like this, not in dealing with the subject of this post.
Is it possible to purchase electronics products that are not made in China?
The US has a terrible human rights record and has much more people in jail per 1000 (China has 118 per 1000 while the US has 655 per 1000) . China executes more than the US 2,400 each year while the US did 24 (only eight states carry out judicial murders)
If you are rich you can get a new TV now. No need for delayed gratification. If you are poor you either wait, get one on credit or steal one, or go without. However, if you look at things like shop lifting, which is a thrill - seeking behaviour, it's much more evenly distributed across the social strata.
Let's not get into the whole human rights record thing, because there is no country that has committed so many war crimes, atrocities, violations and crimes in the last 100 years as the United States of America. Even these days, you engage in cyber espionage and sabotage against those you call your allies.
It's sad to see America attempt to pass judgement onto others, when every single crime you accuse them of, you have already committed yourself.
So yes, I think it's ethically permissible to buy electronics from China, because if you look at the historical record, they are the most peaceful of all the super powers.
Ummm... smarter people HAVE wondered and found that white people have the most to fear from white people (6x more). Black people have the most to fear from black people (10x more). Asians asians, and hispanics hispanics.
None seem to prefer driving anywhere specifically. The question we should be asking is... Why are non-black people scared so much of black people?
The question shouldn't be "Is it ethical to purchase electronics from China?" Rather, the question should be "Are you willing to create an alternative and use that?"
Practically, ethics are an issue when one has a choice. When there's a need, but no choice, ethical considerations become hazy, at best. One can always revisit how much XYZ is a *need* vs. a *want*, but if we're talking about the practicality of operating in the modern world, those needs are often pretty real.
So long as the cost remains cheap, versus manufacturing electronics in your home country, employing your neighbours, don't expect the ethical question to play well with the public.
I'm a direct descendant of Ramesses III, you insensitive plebeian.
CAP === 'micron'
...what was the question again?
in as much social progress as China has made, it is because of their economic engagement with the west
the mistake the USA made with Cuba was exactly the opposite, by isolated Cuba, it gave it nothing to lose and rather than 60+ years of embargo and hostility the USA could have effectively killed Cuba with kindness probably decades ago
hostile relations only give hardliners in the country in question an enemy to rail against
As the China government was never involved in a coup d'etat in my country, the question for me would be "is it ethical to purchase products made in USA?".
China is becoming more and more repressive each year
That like saying global warming is a hoax due to a small recent downtick in an otherwise upward trend. China today is light years better than in the past, judging from the stories I hear from my in-laws and read for myself. That doesn't mean everything is fine
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Leonid Brezhnev...back when men were men and eyebrows were singular
Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
"The question we should be asking is... Why are non-black people scared so much of black people?"
Who is scared of black people? They're the least scary people on earth. If anything, they are treated with contempt.
Knowing that my ancestors were Irish, British, and Danish, I've got to go a ways back to find slaves in my family tree.
My father's side was purely Irish, come to America after the Revolution, but before the Irish were tolerated without a racism normally reserved for others. They escaped indentured servitude by living at the edge of civilization, coming a bit south much later. My mother's side was as British as could be, having first settled in the Colonies before they were called Colonies, and all the intervening marriages were among other settler families, which presents other more interesting questions. None had slaves. One of my uncles moved to Washington, D.C., and adopted the racism prevalent then, and you might well describe his attitudes and business as soft slavery, but he himself? Never a slave.
I'm still unable to shake the possibility that my family tree includes some Native American blood, though it is not recorded anywhere.
If, however, you go back far enough, the claim that "not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave" may be true. Back far enough, and you can make all kinds of irrelevant claims.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Also don't buy from Japan, they butchered a defenceless fleet at Perl Harbor. Also don't buy from Irak as they invaded and enslaved Kuwait ! Ok you can buy from syria as they are totally nice and peaceful.
There's also the systematic loss of skills and knowledge that occurs when so many goods are manufacturered someplace else, or as we will soon find out, by the rise in automation.
Are you retarded or just stupid ?
Try researching Barbary Coast Piracy.
Even your Marine Corps sing about them.
That was a lot closer to modern times than you obviously think.
Newsflash for you boy....more whites have been enslaved over time than blacks.
This seems so ignorant
In 20 years half the stuff you do today will be considered evil or immoral. US society has long ago decided that morality is relative.
So if you don't like the idea, don't buy it. If you feel like you need to help someone, help them.
But what you can't do is tell other people how and what to do.
"Now come to Europe and see how diffrrent people are living together."
You mean like how the middle easterners have changed Sweden? And France? And Germany? And the UK?
It has not been a change for the good ...
How about it does not lend itself to our continuing survival? Lenin said that capitalists will sell you the rope to hang you with. We should add to that that consumers will buy the rope, then give it to you to hang them with. It is time to get back to the understanding of the true evil of communist China.
E Proelio Veritas.
No, of course it's not ethical.
It would be much better to pay twice the price to have some company have the exact same products made in China for half the cost.
I know well the story of our Navy, the Marines, and the history and traditions embodied in the Marine Corps Hymn.
But how that relates to the assertion that "regardless of color or ethnicity, not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave." escapes me.
Now, if you're wondering how it was that our nation, the United States of America, found itself battling Muslim pirates so early in our history, consider that this was a response to the restraint of trade imposed by the Barbary Pirates on so many nations, the inability of so many of those other nations to take the measures necessary to respond and re-establish free passage on the seas, and our need to trade cotton, slave-harvested, with Europe.
Sound familiar? It ought to.
At that time Europe was still battling the results of Muslim invasions, and feared antagonizing the Empire, which could not be good for them. Europe was also mired in their incessant internecine squabbles, especially at the time Western Europe, with colonization fever at the highest pitch. The French Revolution would not help this region. American influence was welcomed, tacitly, as we took the initiative, secured by our ocean border, and assumed our ongoing role as the world's policemen of (mostly) last resort. To this day our Navy has, as its primary mission, defense of the free flow of goods over the seas, for all nations. And we still find opposition to that free passage, don't we? Not just the Somali pirates, either...
The Ottoman Empire, while by some measures decrepit in the end, wasn't disbanded that long ago, My mother would have been born before that. World War Two finally finished it off, and set off an era of Middle East unrest, with the entirely predictable consequences. The end of the 'Cold War' permitted Eastern European conflicts to reoccur, similarly predictable. And in all this, the militant Muslims are still looking to expand their control and dominance, not just in the Middle East, but to Europe and beyond. Not much has changed since the Crusades, it seems.
And Europe finds itself in the midst of another invasion. So also are we now facing an invasion. And a revolution-in-the-making. A revolution coming, and one inspired by the same philosophies and intentions as so many in this era. We have choices to make, and soon.
But the assertion, again, that "regardless of color or ethnicity, not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave." is nearly specious. You have to go back, in my family tree, to the beginnings of Albion, and possibly before. What difference, at this point, does it make?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Kettle, pot. Pot, kettle. You 'merkins dont have the balls to stand up for yourselves and fix your shit. You deserve yourselves.
I read the link from the original poster as well as the correlating link regarding human rights in the USA.
Let's start with Guantanamo Bay, While I actually like GWB, during his administration, the department of justice decided that Habeus Corpus was more of a recommendation than an actual right. It goes downhill from there.
The DHS, TSA, CIA, NSA and more are busted in what seems almost daily in violations of human rights.
We can talk for ages about commercialization of prisons which has been used to have a massive positive impact on unemployment statistics... after all, you're not unemployed if you're either in prison or not qualified to work.
There's the systematic preying upon the weak by exploiting the poor. This includes everything from supporting Walmart employing nearly a million welfare recipients under the presence of "If you don't want to work here, you don't have to". Then there is the issue of financial organizations who inflict harsh and cruel fines on people who have the least to begin with. This means that people will pay multiple percent per week in interest rates just to feed their children to take payday loans. They will pay large sums to cash their pay checks because they don't qualify for bank accounts in legitimate institutions mainly because they were indebted through overdraft fees.
There poor quality of health care for poor people. Sure, everyone has a right to be treated at the hospital ... it doesn't mean they should have the right to a doctor with an absolutely terrible track record.
We could talk about separating children from there parents by the current efforts of the government to criminalize migration.
Look at the system behind being arrested and arraigned. Everyone has a right to legal representation, but most of the public servants are so overburdened they don't have the time to even read the report and they skip straight to summary and plea a deal with no regard for the rights of the accused.
What about laws like "Stand your ground"... I won't even bother summarizing the problems with that.
Should we also abandon India? This is a country which is so bad that when I talked with a pretty Indian girl working in Doha Qatar, the thing she liked best about living in such a wonderful country is that if she gets raped she can call the police.
What about Indonesia? If you need examples of this, you're hopeless.
We can attack most countries... consider even the best countries to live in in the world... the Nordics... ask the Sami people how they feel about the way they've been treated.
Pick your battles, but if you look at China, they're actually practically innocent next to the USA and many others these days.
The computer, phone, routers, switches, servers, cables, connectors, memory, hard disks, etc that you use for your browsing to shop online....where do you think those are made?
You CANNOT avoid items made in China. If you think you can, you better relook at the parts inside what you are using and buying.
You listen to a podcast, watch a show online, even read/post here all utilize components made in China.
I'm concerned about buying Chinese electronics just because of the potential for the gadgets to include methods to infiltrate/enable hacking exploits on systems that use these devices.
Where else would you buy electronics? Every single thing you get is Made In China, from computer parts to assembled devices. What choice do you have besides no choice? I can't think of one single electronic product for consumers that isn't Made In China. Maybe some specialized niche technical products aren't, but I'm not going to be buying them. The question, therefore, presupposes that people have some sort of choice. The question is really if it's ethical to live on the grid, or if we should revert back to 19th-centry living.
Even if you buy something not stamped "Made in China" you're going to be buying something that contains components made there. There's no getting around the global supply chain now.
No it isn't ethical. Good luck finding things that are not or do not have components made in China ( a preferred trade partner). Thank you Pres. Richard Nixon.
On the other hand more then a few alternate places things might be bought from ( North Korea? , etc. aren't much better).
Basically it would be better not to, but it would also be better not to every drive a car or use a product transported with a vehicle that uses or is charged by electricity generated with fossil fuels. You can't though, even if you wanted. Good luck.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
Rather than buying Chinese goods cut China off completely. It's far more ethical to plunge a country of 1.4billion people into a recession. Those poor people have had it too good for too long with their crappy low income jobs.
I think the summary is missing a few zeros. 10 problems? definitely. 100 problems? likely. 1000 problems? entirely possible.
How are the Chinese people ever going to escape from poverty with no jobs and no money coming in to their country? As standards of living increase, people start demanding more rights, but none of that stuff matters when you're just struggling to feed your family. The working environment in the United States was repressive and dangerous for many people for a long time, but we expect other countries to just jump straight from 3rd-world to 1st-world standards? It's not realistic.
No.
#1 nearly impossible to buy a phone or computer which is not 50% made of Chinese parts.
#2 buy such electronics at a sloth pace to limit what you buy from China
#3 buy as little made in China as possible (low consumption)
Today, it's nigh impossible to buy 100% non-China made / sourced products.
Lastly, it's important to limit this when buying kid's toys and kid necessities. It's not as hard as you think, we've spent $10 last two years on Star Wars (SJWars) related merchandise/moves since Disney mangled them.
#1 to #3 all fit into a greener low consumption lifestyle.
Where they got me is the phones.
Try LG phones. They're made in South Korea. I'm very happy with my LG V40. It has a nice screen, good camera, good battery life (I use it quite a bit during the day and never have to charge it mid-day), and a headphone jack with great audio quality. My next tv will probably be an LG too.
You do realise that almost certainly deep down his decision is based on racism, that asians are someone 'lower' than him, and all those damn gooks are the same, right?
After all, other than that, why not buy chinese? its not him supporting america, since by his own admission he happily buys english...
I would suggest only America has African Americans.
However Africa has one hell of a lot more Africans.
And southern France and Spain have quite a few also..
So also are we now facing an invasion.
That invasion has already arrived, and from Russia. Not Mexico or other Latin American countries.
Because fuck you all, i got mine and i need more. Next question!
Oh, i see... you are getting in doubts now cause things don't work out as well as advertised? Well who'd have thought? Its shocking i tell ya, SHOCKING!
Totally unexpected right? If you take something from others and don't give back equal value things will get real bad, who knew - its scientific discovery of the millenium. This behaviour is called thievery and parasitic relationship - just look in the dictionary.
Need labelmaker?
No. I have never in my life saw any use for one.
No, facism is not government controlling the economy, it's the capitalisist running the government. Like you have in the USA.
Communism is abut the means of production, owning it on behalf of the people.
And if you want to whinge about that, it's no different from the claims about shareholders owning the company they're holding shares on.
When you're armed with machine guns and are standing behind a wall that is 20 feet above them, in what way are molotvs and bricks a terrifying weapon, you chickenshit?
If you want to just go bad, go look for the USA atrocities, for example (this is a merkin centric site, if you're not a merkin, your own country is seriously fucked up historically). E.g. the genocide of the native americans, the deliberate infection of blacks in the name of testing colds (it was not a cold), bay of pigs, the idiocies that left Afghanistan and Iraq in the state they were in (they put saddam in charge, so they get it twice, for putting him in and then putting ISIS in by creating a power vacuum), bay of pigs, the apache pilots, they caused the recent depression.
And so on.
When your own country's diabolical nature is pointed out, you scream WHATABOUTISM!!!! but you only do that so you can refuse to consider the claim that the USA is, if anything, worse than China for unethical practices by the government. Especially now. That you cannot handle the question "What about the USA" shows that you know the answer is "We have nowhere to stand morally".
It isnt whataboutism. It's pointing out that you have no basis to make a claim on ethics if you're a USian, making the question post on a US centric site, irrelevant.
We don't have to answer the question because it is posed by someone who has no moral highground to ask us.
There were two sets of men, the minority who were jerks and the majority who did nothing and a larger minority who upbraided the jerks.
You concentrated on the jerks, because you WANT to be offended.
Snowflake.
>This is not for everyone. Most people want it NAO NAO NAO DAMMIT! WAAAH! Fuck that. Patience is rewarded with sweet things.
Sure, a large % is people buying crap on a lark but sometimes you're on a job and you need a tape measure. You're not getting paid to take a research sabbatical to find the optimum made outside of china solution. You want to export your hobby to the masses? Good place to start would be free childcare and a 20 hour work week.
The problem of using Tech from China isn't cost etc...
Its giving them ways to steal secrets and any technological we may still have.
I feel like pretty much fucking EVERYTHING is made in China, and what isn't will cost around 200% more than what is.
Good luck trying to buy IT products made out of China then...