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Ask Slashdot:Ergo Keyboards
Madsen submitted
this as an Ask Slashdot, and its been weighing on my mind
recently. I want a new keyboard- my wrists just aren't what
they used to be after 16 hours of replying to flame mail.
I'm curious what ergo keyboards people have tried. What ones
they like. What ones will make my wrists last longer. And
ideally, where I can find them and how much its gonna set
me back.
is the best ergonomic keyboard I've come across (as well as one of MS's only good products). I own 3 of them myself.
Unfortunately, the 1.0 model has left production in favor of the new "elite" model, which is much smaller, and has a nasty arrangement of cursor keys. If you can find an old one, I whole-heartedly recommend it.
Also, Adesso offers some good ones, available slanted or flat, with a pointing stick, touchpad, or no pointing device.
MoNsTeR (forgot my $#@! password)
The Microsoft ergo keyboards are, unforunately, pretty darn good. They're the only Microsoft products I've ever bought, I have two at home and one at work. If you're cursor-key-happy, you won't like the new layout. The little cursor-key diamond is made for people with really small fingers, as are the HOME, PAGE UP, END, DELETE, etc. keys. The function keys are also a bit small. But for my Emacs-centric life, it's all fine since I don't use those keys anyway since Emacs has quicker ways to accomplish those tasks, IMHO. The best thing to do is buy one from a store which will let you return it if your wrists catch on fire when using it.
We have hardly any Ask Slashdots in the last few weeks and now CmdrTaco posts one?
Please tell me you haven't dropped Cliff (who posts the best articles around) in favor of Katz (who decidedly doesn't NOT).
I have been using a Kinesis contoured keyboard for several years, and I love it. Although it looks a bit weird to most people, it is the most comfortable keyboard I have found. I paid $400 for mine, but you can find the Classic for under $200 online.
http://www.otal.umd.edu/SHORE/bs05/index.html
You don't need a new key board. You need to get off your butt and do somthing else every once in a while. Going to the gym 3 days a week cured my wrist problems.
i've got one of these that i picked up from a
friend used at $25 bucks. Their joysticks arent half bad either, its amazing that a company that writes such shitty code could produce nice hardware, then again, they just pay someone else to slap there name on products which have already been completely designed by other companies.
Darwin Keyboards SmartBoard .
At comdex a few years ago, M$ was giving stuff away, and one of the things that they gave away was a natural keyboard. I didn't win but I mentioned that I was from a non-profit org that was heavily into computers at a university and asked for one. The lady at the booth said to e-mail her some info and she would make an exception. I did and about a month later my Org got a new keyboard for there server. A few keys had fallen off in the shipment but it took 5 min. to fix them. I liked that keyboard so much I bought my own. Maybe you can get the same kinda thing since the site gets so much usage. Heh, you never know.
Microsoft really does make good hardware. :-)
I know their software sucks, but I like the hardware.
I've used a M$ Intellimouse Pro, those are good.
And I own a M$ Sidewinder... It is the best joystick/game pad I have ever used.
I didn't think it'd be good because it said Microsoft on it, but it was only $6 after a $20 rebate, so I figured "What the hell? I need a controller for Tomb Raider."
So I got it, and it is without a doubt, the best controller.
And it even works in Linux!
Well, anyway, my point was:
Fear M$ software, but the hardware is safe.
~enucite~
I prefer the old ones (Non Elite) But prefer either of them to nagging wrist pain. At work I've had both microsoft ones, currently I use an old one with the less-retarded keys. At home I have a Lite-On or somesuch generic ergo keybaord that is about the same size as the original Microsoft one and is still made. I spilled water in my last one and killed it, bought another, this time without the touch pad. Without the ergo keybaords I'm not usre I could play guitar and still be able to type for several hours a day. Dont let weenies who are too afraid to try or learn them discourage you, even at 60 bucks it's worth the price.
It may well be that your problem is that you spend 16 hours at the keyboard, and a new keyboard will just enable you to further injure yourself. Get Emil Pascarelli's book on RSI and read it (or better yet, talk to an actual doctor) first.
If you don't mind the price ($1000) or learning curve (2 weeks) the Datahand (www.datahand.com) is the way to go. It saved my (typing) life.
.. Adam (asr@unixboy.com)
Believe it or not, pretty hard to find, but they are still being manufactured as new. The Lexmark Pro is what it is, really. According to the bottom of my keyboard (Purchased in '98), IBM's part # is: 42H1292
Before you say it's the cheap crappy one, they run about $85 apiece, weigh about 15lbs, and clickety clack like mad. Same exact feeling as an original AT. (And yes, they still have the metal plate in them) Any decent small VAR should be able to find them.
I never used the original Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard so I can't comment on that. A friend recommended the Kensiko 107 key Ergonomic keyboard from Staples. I went into the store and compared it to the Microsoft ergo sitting right next to it. I'm one of those people who likes some things to feel heavy and solid. The Kensiko was, the Microsoft wasn't. The Kensiko was also $20 cheaper. I had seen an ad in Staples mail order catalog listing the keyboard at $30. It was priced at $40 in the store, I asked about getting the catalog price and they matched it.
The Kensiko is a great keyboard, layout is good all keys are standard size, it even has a key in the upper right that reminds me of the power button on the sparc ultra2 keyboard I used to have. The instructions say the key is disabled but I haven't checked to see if it actually generates a code or not.
Definitely buy this Keyboard. I also got a Logitech Trackman Marble+, very neat. Took a while to get used to a track ball after using a mouse for so long but I'm starting to get the hang of it.
I'd like to try a twiddler from Handykey somday when I've got the money, they look like they would be really comfortable.
http://www.handykey.com/
Actually, there were at least two different flavors of the original Natural.
I had used the one my boss had and liked it. So when I saw someone selling one on the net for $10, I bought it.
Turns out it wasn't identical. Both were MS Naturals with the original (non screwed up) layout, but the color was slightly different (different shades of "putty") and the feel of the keys was different. The keys on the one I bought were just plain hard to press. Popping off the keys showed that they had two different mechanisms. Needless to say, I was quite annoyed.
I remedied this by replacing my boss' keyboard with the crappy one and taking his. He didn't said he didn't mind. Considering he didn't program, it was probably a lot less noticeable.
So, for those who are buying used Naturals, you have been warned. Make sure you pull it out of the box and check it before you pay for it.
--
Jason Eric Pierce
Just got one on saturday, and I'm pretty happy with it - best of all, microsoft doesn't get my money when I buy one. I'm not using the scrollpad now, but I'll probably end up (trying) to use it when I switch it to my linux box.
I've also ordered an acer future keyboard, which looks pretty spiffy. Now I just need a better desk and chair, and I'm set.
We build the Maltron keyboard for sale in N. and S. America and it contains
:-)
no electronic components that are date sensitive. Our keyboards are therefore Y2K compliant.
HAHA! Wow, Darn! I was hoping mine would start typing in old english or something
Ye olde keyboard...
Yes! I was wondering if i was going to see this as an alternative to ergo keyboards... a friend of mine got me into dvorak about 6 months ago, slackware even got a console map for it 'loadkeys dvorak' and wallah.. dvorak feels so darn natural, it's like what you were meant to type.. seeing how the qwerty layout was engineered to make you type slower.. the relaxed comfortabe feeling i got after learning dvorak made since.. bravo man.. I too highly reccomend checking out and giving the dvorak layout a fair shake!
About eight months ago, I switched to the Dvorak keyboard layout. And although the learning curve was really tough at first (the first couple 'o weeks especially!!), it ultimately has made a **HUGE** difference on typing efficiency and greatly reduced muscle fatigue. I find that I can now type for much longer periods of time without muscle strain. Speed isn't so much an issue (although there is a *definite* improvement)... the biggest benefit has been the dramatic increase in typing comfort (which *results* in greater overall speed and longer typing sessions without the need to rest).
The cool thing is, although a bit confusing to switch back and forth at first, ultimately I have never lost my ability to use QWERTY effectively either - I just find that I prefer Dvorak for everyday typing (fortunately, software settings are easy to alter, unlike a physical typewriter...). Learning another keyboard layout is kinda like learning another language - you never forget what you already know.
Learning Dvorak has had another bonus as well - it has surprisingly increased my typing speed in QWERTY too! By having to learn a new layout, it has somehow exercised the "typing" part of my brain or somethin'... The practice has made it much easier to touch type in both layouts. So I can easily switch a Winders machine to Dvorak and back and type easily either way, because I've lost the need or desire to ever look at the keyboard in either layout.
One caveat - Dvorak was designed for the English language and everyday communication in it... but it has become apparent to me that UNIX commands were designed to be easy on the QWERTY typist. 'ls' and 'grep' were a bit troublesome at first. ; )
Dvorak rules! Unfortunately, I feel that it, like the Metric System and Betamax, will likely never become used in the mainstream here. : ( Too bad, too. We could save our fellow Americans like 30 billion awkward keystrokes a year!
-Josh
I use the Logitech natural keyboard and find it very good. The wrist rest which comes with the keyboard is great. The price was right; I bought it $30 CDN cheaper than the Microsoft keyboard.
I have used the Microsoft keyboard but found the Logitech one more comfortable; possibly because I was used to the Logitech.
Dex-
I normally stay away from Acer products but...
This is without a doubt the best-ever $69 I have ever spent on a computer upgrade.
Switching between Synaptics touchpad and mouse is great (NT does both, have not got both working under x)
http://www.acerperipherals.com/Ps_input/ps_in_e
Synaptics really wants their touchpad to be square, loose some functionality with the stylish round shape on the Acer keyboard.
Best part of the keyboard is the arrow keys. Locating right below the space bar in the center is great, saves tons of wrist movement, I have big hands and have no problem reaching the arrow keys with my thumbs.
Main thing is the arrow key arangement rocks in quake, have a hard time going back to normal keyboards now.
Downside:
If you have small hands you will probably hate this keyboard, at least my wife does.
The other thing that really has helped my first twinges of RSI go away is the Kensington Expert Mouse. The mouse name is a lie, it's a track ball with a great big ball that is simply wonder full. I don't use it for quake but at work it's great. Again, I use still leave my old mouse attached to the computer but I have it on my left hand side. So if I need a mouse, it's there and NT handles the two pointers just fine (any ideas how to do this in X? Well, I have exceed so I am trackballing/mousing in my NT/unix environment, but at home would be nice to get both going under linux)......
Oh, a final note: Get two keyboards and make them different shaped, At work and home I always have my laptop and NT/Linux workstation going at the same time. I have Exceed (xserver) on my laptop and 100-Base-T at work/home, so it feels like I am local. I find switching between ergo/standard P.C. keyboard and the scrunched feeling of my Dell Latitude XPI laptop for some reason helps out........
Good Luck!
AC = trikster2@hotmail.com
I'm using a Wave Keyboard 2 from Cirque, I wouldn't say its the best, but its a lot better then the MS Keyboards, the key on a MS board suck, they're not stiff enough. Plus, on my Wav Keyboard 2 I get a touch pad wich is preety nice, and I got it refurbished direct from the Cirque for 20 bucks, and its been great for a year now.
YYYEEESSSS!
they rock.
whe I was a kid I spilled a large glass of lemonade in the keyboard on my original PC-AT and had been kicking myself for years. A few months ago I found another one and I am *sooo* happy with it.
how my wife feels about late-night computing now is a different story (theyre about the loudest KB ever)
http://www.tifaq.com/keyboards.html
It's from the "Typing Injury FAQ" and I found it a good read. The vertical split ones, the Maltron ones, and even the chorded ones look pretty good. I use Dvorak on a run-of-the-mill Cheapo keyboard, and I'm fine with it, but someone else might find this interesting.
Keyboards are as subjective as bicycle saddles
and computer mice.
Your hands are priceless. Get a Kinesis.
I have no affiliation with Kinesis, but I am on my second keyboard from them. After two weeks with the Kinesis, I swore I'd never go back, and I haven't.
I did'nt use a keyboard but I use a ergo mouse from Countourdes (www.countourdes.com) and I like it so much. If you would like to try...
Vasco(vfbjr@mandic.com.br)
I'd never give mine up. I'm fortunate enough to have found one of the early PS/2 style keyboards, so it even has the "tiny" PS/2 style keyboard plug that fits all the computers I have around today without need for an adapter. I love that thing. (I like the sense of security that I could hide behind it if the feds ever decided to bust into my place...) I just wish I could find an ergo keyboard with that same feel on the keys!
This looks like an EXCELLENT opportunity for Dragon Systems if they decide to pursue this market. They would have exclusivity with their voice recognition system here!
I have tried but never switched to the skewed (e.g., Micro$oft) keyboards. I have switched to small (e.g., Happy Hacker) keyboards. For me, the rotation of my right arm to get to the mouse (when using broken window managers) was doing lots of damage. So, the small keyboard trades the numeric keypad (which I never use) for a substantially smaller amount of contortion. That, and a Logitech MarbleMan trackball, have done a lot for my achin' arms. sarge@pobox.com
Try putting your keyboard on the lap/thighs. It is usually placed much too high for comfort.
i got a datadesk smartboard a few months ago and i love it. datadesk makes the adb version; there's another company whose name i don't remember that makes the original generic pc version.
the smartboard is not only split, but the keys that you hit with your outer fingers (towards your little fingers) are wider than the keys you hit with your inner fingers. the keys are also arranged in a grid-like pattern instead of a staggered pattern. these characteristics make the keyboard a lot more comfortable to use.
however, there are a few drawbacks. the key configuration is a bit odd; the arrow t is moved left and the six keys above it are moved over the number pad, combined with other keys and ending up one short. the plus/equals key is moved ovver to the left side of the top row. the escape key is floating off in the upper left hand corner. because the key widths are variable, it also takes a bit of time to get used to, and makes switching between the smartboard and normal keyboards a bit difficult.
aside from that, this keyboard is a bit of an improvement over standard split keyboards and allow your hands to work in a more natural fashion.
I got one of the newer MS Naturals with my new machine (a Dell), and didn't like it, both because of the nasty arrangement of cursor keys (which were also half-size!) and because the angle that the keys were at due to the tilt was such that I kept missing keys while touch typing.
When I still didn't get used to it after about 2 weeks, I swapped for a "normal" (non-ergo) keyboard and have been happy (with a wrist-rest) since.
I have one here at work, and have kept it through several computers; I wouldn't use any of those flimsy keybords that come with new machines (I also hate the stupid Windows keys that are on all the new keyboards; I keep hitting them instead of ALT/CTRL... )
I have a Northgate Omni-key Ultra at home, which has as good a feel as the IBM (too bad they went out of business...)
I can't agree that the PS/2 keyboards necessarily went down hill, as my first experience with these great beauties was one off of an old PS/2. It could have been replaced with an older, more durable one tho....gotta love the replaceable cord! It has a nice solid feel. Each key depresses with an easily recognized (and unfortunately quite audible) 'click' so you *always* know when you complete a keystroke. I was lucky with my first, was at the right place and time when they were getting rid of the old PS/2. My next two I purchased for $5 at our University's surplus equipment sales department. I *highly* recommend digging through any place that has piles of old computer equipment and you're bound to find plenty to choose from. It's rediculous how people tossed these aside for the cheap, flimsy replacements that just died a couple years later.
good luck,
Dave
Hey! Has anyone had any experience with the logitech internet keyboard. It has all of these cool internet keys, but I haven't seen any way to access these through linux. Any ideas?? Thanks.
All new Kinesis contoured keyboards are
switchable between Qwerty and Dvorak layouts,
and you can optionally buy them with dual
Qwerty/Dvorak keycaps. They are both painted
on, so you don't have to worry about stickers
falling off, or misshapen keycaps that have been
pried off and moved around.
Well I have to say it.. but Microsoft keyboards are thus far the best I ever tried. And I love the clicking ones, but my wrists are terrible and I needed something differant.
I tried serveral ergo keyboards but the one I like by far the best is microsoft, sorry to say. Just in case you wondering I type around 120wpm, and am not a mouse man. If it was up to me, I would grab all the mice and put them under the nearest train.
So whatever else you can say about them (hehe and few things good) their keyboards are great!
I few years ago, Lexmark (and possibly IBM) made an ergonomic keyboard called the Select-Ease. Unfortunately, they only built about 3,000 of them before they sold the technology and equipment to another company, who proceded to shelve the product. They weren't cheap, and they came out at a time when manufacturers only wanted $6 keyboards. However, they were extremely configurable, and very rugged. The people I know who own them are fanatical about them, and many of them commute the keyboards from home to work every morning. There are places you can still find them if you do a little digging, but they might cost a couple of hundred dollars.
Only $50!
The M$ keyboard (especially the new 'Elite' one) is such a piece of shit.
About a year ago, my wrists/hands ached every day from typing on that POS. I'm only 26. I've been typing for 15 years. God willing, I'll be typeing for some time to come.
So I grew a pair of nuts, and I plunked down $250 on my Kinesis Contour with the Dvorak lay out. Then I spent a month relearning to type.
I'll never go back. I carry my keyboard with me. The best thing that I ever did.
I think a company called cherry makes mechanical action keyboards. Gotta buy 'em through a VAR, though.
I've been using Dvorak for over 18mos. now; it only took about 3 weeks to get used to the layout and about another two months to get up to where I was before, speed-wise.
:-)
For me, the '{' and '}' aren't that annoying because they've only moved up one row and over a bit. (I use a Lexmark/IBM SelecTouch keyboard, which is awesome -- the two halves are shoulder-width apart, completely eliminating any forearm deviation.)
But the upshot is that programming is far, far easier, and I can't type QWERTY anymore without wondering what you people are thinking.
ergo keyboards suck...
I've been using a Kinesis contoured "Classic QD" for about a year now. I really like it; I can remap any keys, run Dvorak without messy software settings, etc.
/, and \ keys around so that the - was my right pinky... very nice, better than QWERTY. The [] and {} are little bad being pinky and ring finger at the bottom, but I got used to it.
You can start using Dvorak in most any operating system with just software, though. I used to use an old MS natural keyboard with Win95, SCO Unix, and DOS with Dvorak done in software on each box. I could even switch back on Win95 to QWERTY, if I was that stupid (nice for coworkers to be able to do, though).
vi is a bit weird in Dvorak, but doable. I ended up remapping the arrow keys on my Kinesis to be more like the remapped vi "arrow" keys, and I moved the -,
The cost? Well, about $230 for the Kinesis, x2 because I bought one for home soon after getting one at the office.
Other tweaks?
Well, proper posture is best. I've got one of those Scandanavian-type kneeling chairs, which forces me to sit with my back straight. That helps a fair amount. And I use a track pad for a mouse, so that I can just reach a bit and touch ith surface rather than have to grab a mouse. And I mouse left-handed now, since the right hand already had more than enough to do.
Microsoft's Natural Keyboard falls down on the haptic quality. Typing on it feels like you're typing on chiclets. In my experience, a 'normal' keyboard with good tactile feedback is better than an 'ergonomic' one with crappy feedback. The best 'normal' keyboard I've found is the 'NMB Right Touch' model.
Mouse Systems makes a keyboard in the same curvy form factor as the original Microsoft Natural keyboard (with the keys in the proper places, not scrunched a bit like they are on the newer 'Elite' version of Microsoft's model). Unlike the Microsoft model, Mouse Systems' model has good tactile feedback--not quite as nice as NMB's, but better than most of the other keyboards out there.
Both of these keyboards are around the $50 price point. I got both of mine at Computer City, although I got the Mouse Systems one at $15 when our local Computer City was being cannibalized into a CompUSA.
- Watts (unable to remember his original password)
A lot of people seem to like the microsoft keyboards. I'm curious if these are people that have had wrist trouble, or if they've developed wrist trouble since getting the microsoft keyboard.
I had one but threw it out. It was the worst keyboard I'd ever used on my wrists. I'm not sure I understood why, but I caused me to reach *further* then I would with a regular keyboard. In particular, typing in & * $, and those other
perl thingies was very difficult.
I'm not trying to spread fud... maybe it is a good keyboard for some people, but it was definitely not for me!
As I wrote in another post, I'd recommend the kinesis keyboard and a foot pedal for shift.
Has anyone tried one of these? It's called the Interfaces keyboard but used to be called the floating arms keyboard.
Two half keyboards clip to the ends of the armrests of your chair...
It sounds like a dream come true for me, but the hefty price tag($500 last time I checked as far as I recall) kept me away. Well, that and the fact that this thing really should be cordless.
www.ergointerfaces.com - go to the products section (I hate frames).
Seriously, I used to have big problems with my wrists, but now I've successfully zeroed in on the ideal keyboard: a small SGI PS/2 'board of the kind the shipped with the O2. I slap a wristpad in front of it and set it on the edge of my desk, and I'm set to type all day. (Note, however, that I have a desk designed for computer use. The thing that's special about it is its height.) You've probably also tried Sun keyboards, which are very light to the touch and responsive. I prefer the SGI 'board because the keys go down further, thus exercising my hands more. No doubt about it, my hands are the strongest parts of my body. I have a number of friends who are into martial arts, and I enjoy crushing their hands into pulp in hand- squeeze-fights.
A Maltron for Malda, huh? How appropriate. ;)
While we are on the topic of good keyboards, I really like the sun type 5 keyboard on my ultra 5 at work, and would really like to have a version of this for my pc's. any of y'all know of a keyboard that comes close to this?
I am not picking on you ( I could have replied to any of the pro MS Natural keyboard articles) but the MS Natural keyboard is just not ergonomic. If you know anything about human physiology yopu would realize this. I am just waiting to see all the law suits that MS will be facing in about 10 years time from people who have sustained injuries from using this keyboard. Its design will optimize the amount of karpal tunnel syndrome induced in its users. The mound of keys is very unnatural for the hand and forces users to use a wrist pad. The wrists should never be put on a pad while typing. The damge this continuous pressure on the wrists will induce is incredible. The wrists should be away from the desk. Please lok at a good book on the ergonomics of typing. The only two ergonomic keyboards out there that I know of are the Maltron and the Kinesis. The Maltron has been around from the early 70's if not the 60's and shown reliable service over the years with no known side affects. Please do not be sheep led to the slaughter by MS. Your hands are too important!
I've heard they're popular in the wearable computer users. It's a one-handed mouse/keyboard combo. I'm interested in hearing whether or not it's any good for regular workstation usage.
you can find them @ :
http://www.handkey.com
I saw the post about remapping h-d,j-h,k-t and l-n in vi so that you still vi comfortably with a dvorak layout. Now I am just currious to hear about anyone that uses emacs and the dvorak layout. Did you decide to remap anything? C-x C-s with dvorak and a kenisis is two two-handed keystrokes ;(
But I guess the biggest thing is still the annoying {} and [] keys.
I've got one of the fabled and rare Lexmark keyboards at home as well as on my desk. I had lots of RSI problems prior to switching to it, and haven't had any problems since. They're pretty much infinitely configurable... You can adjust the height off the desk at any of the eight corners (four corners on each half of the keyboard, three height settings at each). It's split in two with a ball-and-socket joint binding the two halves at the top of their center edge. You can detach the two halves and place them far apart if you want. The spacebar is of course split in two, but one very cool feature is that you can assign either of them to be a backspace key and toggle them... Now you'll stop stretching/bending for the backspace key, and your hands remain intheir neutral position. The number pad is on a separately attached piece and a 1.5 foot cable... I place it to the right of my mouse pad. This means you can move you hand from the keyboard to the mouse very easily without kinking your wrist to stretch over the number pad. Or if you keep the two halves separate, you can put the number pad in the middle, which some people here do. I cannot emphasize enough how highly coveted these keyboards are. When a colleague left the company and left his Lexmark keyboard behind, their was a huge blow-up as people scrambled to acquire it. The fact that they're not made anymore is a tragedy... The Microsoft keyboard is crappy, yet seems to have set some minimum standard for ergo-conscious keyboards... The Lexmark sets the mark for the top end of the scale. All ergo keybaords fall in the range between these two, as far as I'm concerned. GET ONE!
To be perfectly fair, here are my only two cirticisms of this keyboard: First, you have to be careful when transporting it because you can very easily get your fingers pinched if the two halves swing shut on you... Better to transport it with the two pieces separate. Second, the Ctrl keys are placed in ridiculous locations, just to the outside of the spacebars. I'm one of those people who always remaps CapsLock to Ctrl anyway, so it's never been a problem for me, but if you're an Emacs user like me and for some reason you like your CapsLock key, you might have to get used to using the Ctrl keys with your thumbs... And yes, that's actually pretty comfortable.
Can any Kinesis owner who has opened their keyboard tell me the part numbers of the two socketed 8-pin DIP parts? Since the processor has a sticker with a date but no model number on it, I conjecture that the only difference between the non-programmable Essential and the programmable Classic is the addition of a second serial EEPROM. Confirm or deny?
I use the trust natural keyboard, It's about the same as the one from M$, but a LOT cheaper.
(What would you expect??)
I haven't typed on those for a very long time. However, I saw two of those lying around at a second-hand shop nearby. Unfortunately they had some kind of 'telephone'/RJ-jack for a plug. Anyone know of a converter for those?
Anyone try pullling out the keys on the MS natural keyboard and rearranging them for Dvorak? And not the new elite, for god's sake don't buy the elite, you'll suffer in quake when you it's too impossible to use the arrow keys for anything realistic.
I have a Reveal ergo keyboard that I like
very much. It looks a lot like the MS keyboard.
The only problem with it is that I now find
regular keyboards awkward. Don't remember the
price but I think it was quite reasonable.
I have one of those, and they are newer and nicer than the ibm's with the same look, wieght and feel. Well, the look is updated a bit but not by much.
I bought a "natural" keyboard (a Belkin, for 25$, with the 6 on the right side, and descent arrows).
It doesn't feel more confortable, as you still have to bend your wrists to use it. It just improves my typing speed, requiring less movement to access keys that are not on the home row.
If you are looking at a pain-remover, you'll have to look at more fancy (i.e. costly) solutions.
$395 for a keyboard??!! ok they are nice, but that's well over ten times the price for a MS ergonomic keyboard. these days you can get a full computer for little more. bring down the price to $150 and i'll buy one.
at that price point you loose 99.9% of potential customers
I also have an original model MS Natural Keyboard. I like it a lot - I can actually type faster with a lot less wrist strain than on conventional keyboards. Unfortunately, the new ones are horrible for all the reasons you mention - the arrow keys are useless and the F keys are worse.
I own the Microsoft Natural Elite Keyboard, Intellimouse, Sidewinder and Freestyle Pro. Think they're all great.
the MS Natural KB is the only product ever produced by/endorsed by Micro$oft that is worth anything... definitely the best keyboard around.. I originally didnt like the new Natural 2 Elite keyboards, but its just a matter of getting used to it.. as it was from going from a standard KB to the original Natural... for ergo KB's, there's just no beating the MS Natural ....
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contspec.html,
contains those nifty keyboards which looks as if the keys were mapped on the inside of a bowl.
They run for about $200, but you they are nice. You can buy DVORAK or that other design.. Qwerty I believe..
I happen to like the 6 key on the left side. The MS Natural is the only ergo KB I've seen that does it that way. And you can get used to the diamond arrow keys and Home/End/etc. key layout after a while.
several things about Keyboards & RSI:
:-)
1) The Keyswitches used in your keyboard make the most difference.
If you buy the cheapest keyboard you can (like with bargin PCs),
you are probably getting one of those rubberized inserts underneath
the keys (like what they use in calculator pads). If you want less
RSI, make sure you've got a keyboard with SPRINGS in the keyswitches
and not *just* rubber.
2) A lot of people that comment on Dvorak haven't actually tried it;
I have - The Dvorak layout takes a good amount of patience to get
used to for the first week or two, but then you adapt, and i've
found where i used to be around 45-50wpm on Qwerty, i'm now at
55-60wpm using dvorak (Technical Writer writing manuals on 3D
software, not actually coding). It makes sense - every word in
the English language uses the five vowels "aeiou"- stick them under
the home row of the left hand instead of all over the place -> therefore
less movement away from the home row for the statitically highest
used keys on the board. Then by statistical anylisis, the other
5 most used consonants "dhtns" under the home row of the other hand,
again, less movement away from the home row -> less RSI & faster.
just typing the word "the" stays entirely on the home row in
dvorak, while 2/3 of it is off home row with qwerty. your fingers
travel 2/3 more when you type "the" on qwerty - how many times a
day do you type that word alone? for anyone willing to go through
the bit of pain, you will find much gain in switching - fingers
move less, don't feel as cramped, faster speed. after using qwerty
for years, i switched to dvorak about three years ago, and am glad
i did. i'd recommend it if you're looking to alleviate RSI.
3) i know a lot of slashdotters have prejudiced minds against apple,
but they came out with an adjustable split keyboard (you could actually
swivel the two parts physically to the optimum desired angle) which
also had really good keyswitches. i used this for several years, and
it has been my favourite keyboard of all the ones i've used regularly
to actually accomplish work:
- starting with the: TRS-80 model I (3 years)
- some old unix workstations
- VIC20/C64
- PET 4032/8032
- a VAX terminal (1 term at school)
- an original IBM PC 8088 keyboard (a close second! 2 years)
- Mac+/MacII Standard Extended ADB Keyboard (5+ years)
- the Microsoft Natural keyboard (not bad, but not adjustable)
- several PC clone keyboards (the worst of the bunch - mostly rubber)
- a couple notebook keyboards (mostly "squishy" and not enough travel)
- an SGI Indy Keyboard (4 years)
- an iMac keyboard (which i'd rate 3rd - some people say it is
"too small" - but if you take out a ruler and measure the size
of the keys on the iMac keyboard, they are the identical size
to my full-sized SGI keyboard, they just trimmed out the excess
surrounding plastic so it uses up less desk space - smart).
so, my top 3 keyboards of the bunch:
1 - Apple Adjustable Keyboard (`92)
2 - Original IBM PC 8088 Keyboard
3 - Apple iMac Keyboard
and all of them using a dvorak layout.
i must note a caveat that a lot of keyboards (e.g. PC80088 and the
apple adjustable) have a sculpted keyset (iMac keyboard does not,
but its key action is good), and this makes them tricky when you're
reconfiguring the keycaps to dvorak - a real pain.
4) last thing - there used to be a thing in the old mac mags
called "The Bat" - basically a 5-key type thing where you could
get all the letters of the alphabet + extra combos to get all
the letters of the alphabet by "chording" the keys.
i think it was a great idea - you map 1-key::1 finger on a
regular keyboard, with the BAT you multiplex your keys, so you
don't need two hands! that means one hand completely for mouse,
and the other hand completely for keyboard/character entry,
and you work a lot faster. i tried to order one, but they went
out of production, and i couldn't get one .
regards,
johnrpenner@earthlink.net
The braces are now next to each other on the bottom row of the keyboard. The international model still has the bad brace location.
Yes, it is possible to get used to vi with dvorak. J and K stay right next to each other, but they are on the left hand. H and L are on the right, and H is actually to the left of L, so it almost makes sense.
I personally cannot use vi with the qwerty layout anymore, even though I can still type (slightly handicapped).
Go ahead, xmodmap yourself to dvorak and don't look back. You'll be glad you did.
I am interested in buying a ergo keyboard like some of the ones described in these posts. Now I am a very strict keyboard/mouse quake player, (use a z shfit x s d c q w e, etc) and the mouse... .anyone have any gaming experience on an ergo keyboard?
If you really want to try something wild, see DataHand Systems.
I've used the Smartboard for the last year and I like it a lot. Yes, it's qwerty but I've never bothered to learn the dvorak layout. I often have to switch between computers at work and I can't always use my preferred keyboard. Regardless, the split layout has worked wonders for my wrists.
From TidBITS.
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I highly recommend the Kinesis. Get the programmable version for the Macros.
For those of us that rather now fill up Mr. Gates' pocket with our hard earned money, there's always this company named Logitech that makes a way better product that looks cooler, and priced cheaper. The Logitech Ergo keyboard even has a touch pad built in! It looks cooler too and cheaper than the MS one. Logitech mice are better, and Logitech joystick are better. The Wingman Force totally kicks Sidewinder Force's butt from one end of the planet to the other. And most of all, CHEAPER!
I used the original MS Natural Keyboard for
1 *year* - my wrists were better than a normal
keyboard, but they still hurt. I then bought a
Kinesis Contoured Keyboard (www.kinesis-ergo.com)
and have been using it for 2 years, and my wrists
hardly ever anymore. It is a *world* of difference. The cost is high ($200), but for us computer people, our wrists are worth it. For the
truly hardcore, I'd recommend a Kinesis Essential QD, which is the contoured keybord with built in Dvork support (comes with QWERTY and DVORK labels on each key).
The old $150 Apple Extended Keyboard II was similar - mechanical switches, 3x the weight of the new flexible flyers. Great keyboards.
When I bought my first computer (AST- Advantage Adventurer 486SX/25mhz) it came with a keyboard that was out of this world. I have come to love this keyboard. I do quite a bit of typeing and it hasnt let me down yet. No keyboard failure, the keys stay clean. The only problem with it is that it is really hard to get down under the keys to clean up all that hair and crumbs. The thing I really like about it is that it dont have the win95 keys on it...
That's weird, because I've had just the opposite experience. I bought two Natural keyboards back in 1995 when they first came out, and have been using them daily since (one at home, one at work) and it's been the most durable part of my computer. In fact, given all of the memory/disk/CPU/motherboard upgrading I've done, I think my Natural keyboard at home is the oldest piece of equipment on the system!
The new Natural keyboards suck, though.
These supply the "original AT" complement of keys, but with a slightly improved layout: the escape and tilde/grave keys can be swapped. Layout is almost perfect: the ten function keys are on the left, the Ctrl key is by the A, and the Alt key under the left-hand Shift key.
:-) Dell used to use this keyboard, back in the days in which they called themselves "PC's Limited."
These are about ten years old: they can be set to work with XT's as well as AT's.
They're typical MaxiSwitch: lots of resistance and travel, with a definite "contact." They're excellent for those of us with large hands who pound hard on the keys. If it helps give you an idea of the feel: the Gateway AnyKey keyboard is a MaxiSwitch.
I've grabbed two 2186002XX units over the years, and I'll buy them from my employer if I must!
I personally like my newer logitech newtouch better than my ms natural.. it has a useless trackpad attached.. dont ask why.. :) but i like the key reply and arrangement much better than the MS Natural.. it also has the cursor keys arranged better than the Natural elite. :)
You've all seen these: ALPS keyswitches, good layout, heavy-duty.
How may keyboards have their own Web sites? Check
http://www.gprep.org/~fhalden/favorite.htm
Believe it or not, they're still made!
http://cvtinc.com
I got me a MS Natural right in front of me. The MS Natural Elite is the One to AVOID! The first model is actually quite nice. It's the only M$ product I actually endorse.
Kagenin
Unicomp was IBM's original keyboard-making arm, and then Lexmark's. They can repair all of these, and they have some remaining buckling-spring IBM keyboards in stock!
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
To echo the sentiments of those who posted above me, YES! these keyboards do in fact, rule. I picked up one from a local Computer Renaissance (I know, I know...) out of their "used" keyboard bin and purchased it for $5. The best part about it is that it's Brand New. The copyright on the bottom of mine says 1984, and that it was made by Lexmark...If you look through the bottom you can see a big metal plate running underneath the keys, and you can really tell when you've depressed one. Short of buying one of those Kinesis ergos, this is probably the best "regular" keyboard around, if you can find one.
My keyboard layout was pretty ergonomic on a regular keyboard, taking advantage of the fact that Quake lets you map two keys to each function. I used W and S for moving forward and backward, and then I have both Q and A mapped to step left, and both E and D mapped to step right. My "flip you, metal farmer" (10 points to anyone who can catch that reference) finger is used on W and S, and I place my wrist whereever it is comfortable. On a regular keyboard, that means I'm mostly using D for sidestepping, and on the Elite, I use E most of the time. I have ALT bound to a rocket jump macro.
For the mouse, I've got a three button Logitech. One button is for firing, one button is bound to IMPULSE 6, and one is bound to IMPULSE 7. Mouse look is always on, of course.
--Tim Smith, AKA Moonshadow in Quakeworld
Microsoft is just following the wrong calling.
Their software sucks, but their hardware is great.
I have to agree with the comments on the MS
Natural keyboard, tho. I LOVE the original
one, but I was shocked when I found that they
only sell the inferior "Elite" model now.
Small function keys, a bizarre arrangement of
the arrow keys, and smaller system function
keys in a new arrangement make this keyboard
a pain. Not to mention that the 'tilt' of
the keyboard is different- the original
tilted up in front (towards you). The Elite
model tilts up in back, like a regular keyboard.
It makes my hands _hurt_ after using it for
a while.
I'm prowling used computer stores buying up
the original natural keyboards that I can find-
I'd like to keep using those forever.
Robbie
win32 mousetool saved my wrists:
http://www.mousetool.com
Where can I see this Datahand?
I've just got to second this statement. I was starting to have pain over the last summer while working as a full-time UNIX admin. 2 things saved my hands.
My Kinesis Essential MPC (Mac/PC Switchable)
Ripping the arms off my chair.
All hail the Kinesis Ergo keyboards. Worth every single penny!
I'm a programmer, and as such am at a keyboard for long periods of time. I use a Microsoft Natural keyboard (original version) at home and a similar clone 'board at work. Both helped with wrist pains.
I had a Natural Keyboard Elite for a short time at my previous job, and would agree with others who've stated that it's a definite step backwards from the original Natural Keyboard. The positions of the cursor keys suck -- and yes, I do use the numeric keypad.
But I found that I received much more benefit from changing pointing devices. I purchased a Logitech Trackman Marble to replace my mouse, and it made a HUGE difference. It took a few days to become accustomed to using my thumb to guide the 'mouse' cursor, but it's far more comfortable than any mouse I've ever used. (BTW, I *hate* the Microsoft Intellimouse.)
At school, when I came across a big pile of old computer stuff that was being thrown out, I snaked one of those beasts and have never turned back since. They are simply the best thing IBM ever made! (ok well maybe not best, but close)
I noticed that some of you were saying that you wished there was an ergonomic version. THERE IS!!
(well sort of) I was at Altex Electronics (sorta like radio shack except a million times better) and picked up a buckling-spring IBM keyboard for $20. The guy at the store told me that when they cost $200 when they first came out. It's not quite as good as my original '87 IBM keyboard, but close. It has a split in the middle. The degree of the split can be adjusted by a knob at the top middle of the keyboard. If you loosen the knob the two halfs can be moved or even taken totally apart (they are connected by a cord which runs from one to the other). My only problem whit it is that they keys are not as "tall" as normal keyboard keys (they resemble laptop keys some what, although not THAT shallow). The keyboard doesn't come with a keypad, but has an connector to attach a sperate keypad. The problem is that these keyboards are not made anymore so I have not been able to find a keypad for mine. If I could only find a keypad, I would be in heaven. But, as long as I have my original IBM board, I'll be JUST FINE!!
Too lazy to log in:
-kidd
.... my work is selling the older version of the
microsoft natural keyboards
just visit the website
www.compgeeks.com
slicer!
The Elites are positively *awful*. They even switched the flip-up thing to tip up the *wrong* side of the keyboard (the back). Like I wanna *increase* my wrist angle. Sheesh!
Whoever the bozo is that designed the Elite should be put into the stockade and pelted with rotten fruit.
The location of the curly braces is not that big of a deal. I think it is actually easier than hitting them 2 rows up with your little finger.
I also bought the Kineses with the hardwired, Dvorak/QWERTY switchable layout. To anyone who is having problems with their wrists, I would strongly encourage you to learn the Dvorak layout. It takes about a month to master, but you will never go back again. Your fingers don't have to jump around as much because the layout is optimized so the letters you use most are the most readily available.
You can get very nice, switchable, hardware mapped dvorak/querty keyboards which change mode with a touch of a button, for $50 from www.dvortyboards.com. I have one, and it is quite nice, complete with letters. Allows you the benefits of having a full time dvorak keyboard (so no remapping problems when dealing with the linux console and the like), and the keys are even labeled with both dvorak and qwerty layouts. Unfortunatly, the key feel isn't the greatest (standard cheap PC keyboard mush). Ah well.
You can also try to get an OLD (NON programmable) Onmnikey keyboard. These have a VERY nice keyfeal and a nice click, and can be mapped to/from dvorak by moving a DIP switch and resetting the computer. Unfortunatly, my nice Ultra-T's connector has died.
I've been using a Microsoft Natural keyboard :)
:P I'll take you all on..)
for about 2 years now, they definetly stop
your fingers aching after many hours of
hacking away at code. I agree that the 'elite'
ones are shite - IMO the only good thing
Microsoft can produce is Mice (Intellimouse)
and Keyboards
(go on.. flame me...
syNaK
I've found wearing wrist guards helps more
than the style of keyboard you use. I have 3 kinds of wrist guards, one for typing, one for sleeping, and one for sports. I have 20 or so keyboards, and I find myself using the microsoft split keybaord style the most. If I use the wierder kind I have trouble typing at other people's computers. I tried the foot pedals too, but I found it ackward to keep my foot in position all the time. Anyway, with the wrist guards I've pretty much eliminated all pain, at the expense of looking a little wierd.
I looked at those, but I thought the trackpad would be incredibly annoying after about the first five minutes.
My 2 favourite pieces of hardware on my machine:
Logitech Marble FX trackball. Mmmm...
ancient GoldStar keyboard from my old 286, remapped (with the aid of a screwdriver) to Dvorak layout.
(rant.uk: Dammit, who WERE those idiots representing Glasgow on University Challenge last night. Grrr...)
I've used the Ergo Keyboard SNI manufactures. I was very happy with it, for several reasons:
-you can adjust the angle between the split parts to match your wrists/arms/width of shoulders (and not billy's)
-rises to the middle (3 heights to choose, flat, half inch, one inch approx.)
-main area ist win-key-free! they are at an extra area on the left.
-decent use of tablespace (no num keypad - no prob for me)
-as opposed to the ms-keyboard, navigation keys (crsr, home etc.) are of normal size
i have done some typing on a ms-snowboard, eh, keyboard. do not recommend that thing...
phan
Holding down both shift keys and pressing F12 makes the keyboard send a copyright message, "copyright 1986 - 1997 by interfatron-bbc ...".
Is it documented anywhere that Program+(Ctrl|Shift|Alt)+F6 makes the modifier 'sticky'? I can't find it... any other commands like that?
Kinesis only has programming software for 'doze. Anyone know the command protocol so 'we' can write a free version for real OSs?
Try to find a Tru-Form sometime. Same price, better feel to the keys (for a membrane)
The key is on the left with a Tru-Form.
I touch type and from the home row the 6 is hard to reack from my right hand, but it's fine from my left.
where are the sysrq, print screen, and scroll lock keys?
The original "Natural" is the best ergo keyboard I have ever used, and MS' single high-quality product. My family owns two other ergo keyboards (a "Wave" and some other CompUSA special), this one is light years better than the others. I have CTS, but have not had a single problem since buying this keyboard except when switching back to a conventional keyboard. A WORD OF WARNING: the new Natural's are mad lame, the F keys are barely bigger than IBM's cute little red Trackpoint, and the arrow keys are in a funky arrangement. Get an old Natural if you can find one anywhere; any respect I gained for MS with the old keyboard has been obviated by the new, l33t (sic) Natural.
Yup, the Acer kb was well worth the price. I love the arrow keys around the touchpad, and my only complaint is the crappy feel when you press them.
pj_dammit@usa.net
I've typed incorrectly since I was 10. Now I'm 20 and since about a year ago I've been able to type without looking at the keyboard.
They say you'll never learn to type fast, but I type just as well as anyone else I know. I used to be able to go as fast as 60 wpm, but haven't used the computer that much lately, seems more like 40 now.
I think I'm more prone to typing mistakes, although I really wouldn't know. At least my wrist don't hurt.
Speed depends on what I type. More commonly typed words are faster and less prone to errors. It's like my brain keeps track of how to type each word instead of where the letters are. Words I read off of paper are espically slow, despite the fact that I don't have to look at the keyboard.
No one seems to have mentioned Adesso yet.
www.adessoinc.com
My roommate has a MS Natural, and I have the Adesso TruForm. Ordered mine from pcconnection.com. It was ~$20 cheaper than roommate's MS; it has full-size movement keys (cursors, PgUp, etc.), full-size Function keys; it allows you to tilt up the front instead of the back (more comfortable for me anyway).
Not so sure yet about the quality. It works okay overall, but my right Ctrl keycap is loose after two months of use.
Oops! I'm late for history...
ccg
Any cheapish clones out there ?
I dont know if I got a "new" one or not, but it was kind of expensive, and it kinda sucks. the keys tend to stick after only having it for a few months. and it was like $60.
nlucent wearing his spiffy new slashdot hat
Have you tried some of the newer IBM Keyboards. I got one with my 350 4 years ago and the tactile feel is just as you described it. The monster is heavy too, easily three times the weight of a regular keyboard. The only problem is that it is a little loud.
I read the internet for the articles.
Probably the cheapest thing to try the Dvorak keyboard layout. It takes a couple of weeks to get back up to a non-frustrating typing speed, but once you can type proficiently you'll cringe whenever you have to use qwerty :). Once you can touch-type dvorak going switching between it and qwerty becomes very easy - so you really aren't in any danger of screwing yourself up in the long run. Get an xmodmap for XF86 here. One personal keyboard mappping I use that really helps my wrists is moving the delete key from it's place in the upper right corner of the keyboard, where I have to flick my wrist over to hit it, to the left alt key, where I can easily hit it with my thumb - so I don't have to move my hands at all in normal typing (the xmodmap above includes this - along with a full complement of shift bits - shift, control, alt, altgr, meta, super, and hyper (if XF86 supported them, I would have a top and front too :))
I bet it takes longer than that if you're a vi user...
This is true. I have been using the arrow keys instead of hjkl for vi ever since, so vi is not as efficient as it used to be. On the other hand, I've been using Emacs more and more so... *shrug*
Apparently the Navy did tests, but the chap that did the tests had a vested interest in seeing Dvorak win.
This is also true, but the fact is that it feels much nicer than qwerty. The Navy put in an order for 4000 Dvork-layout typewriters but since it was the middle of WWII the order was squashed on budget grounds (or something like that.) If you've spent too much time reading Dvorak pages (like I have :) there is a paper that takes Dvorak down a few notches, but doesn't bother to mention the fact that all the world's fastest typest use Dvorak, and the focus of said paper is more the economics of retraining people to a new layout, not whether the layout really is superior to qwerty. In the computer age, when you don't have to buy a new typewriter or keyboard to try out a new layout, I think it makes sense it give it a shot. It's really a personal choice anyway. I use Linux in a Windows world, I use Dvorak in a QWERTY world.
Posted by Mr. Assembly:
I have two, and I keep my eyes open for others. These were made in 1991, and are battle tanks. I think that they must have be used on some of their workstations. Mine is a "model M".
I hear that the northgate is better, but have been unable to find one.
Posted by Mr. Assembly:
Yes, but I get this inferiority complex from knowing that others seem to have their brain stems attached to these things and can do a zillion wpm without looking down once.
--
--
=8^
I'd like to build my own bizarre keyboard, and I don't think I want to emulate the standard layout in order to use cannibalized components from a standard keyboard. How do I find out more about the interface between the keyboard and the PC, and the codes the keyboard sends?
--
Xenu loves you!
What works for me is going to a drug store (wally world accually) and buying some wrist splints. I can type without them, but not for long. The pain becomes a mild discomfort rather then something to make me want to change jobs.
I like my IBM keyboard, and would buy more. (in fact I have bought more) I still need the splints though.
Are there any ergo keyboards with moveable keycaps? I type in dvorak, and I'm growing weary of the stickers. Half of my home-row is qwerty again, because the stickers just aren't very robust.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Give me a nice solid regular keyboard any day - good enough. The old, original IBM PC (Selectric) keyboards were the bomb though. Still have a few.
Sejin Mouse. I could've sworn there was a "J-something" too. Whatever...
hate to repeat it but the best thing i ever did for my wrists and hands getting sore was to switch to dvorak... the much more useful benefit in my opinion than the speed increase (which was nice too)
http://notanumber.net/
the 'jk' keys are still next to each other and the
h,l are is a similar place..
i swapped my l and s and it works nicely...
you also dont have to switch one over from
standard position.. (a plus in my opinion as
i tend to overshoot those off by one thingys..)
http://notanumber.net/
These things are hard to find, but they absolutely rule! I stole one ancient from my scool, (replaced it with my "old" keyboard) don't worry it was on a server anyway. And another from a client. (They had stacks of keyboards nobody was using anymore, because they where "old")
I hate those plastic Keytronic which seem to come with almost every machine nowadays.
Jón
You could run one over with your car and it would still work perfectly. Those were great keyboards. I still have a few of them kicking around...
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
I have a friend who used to be able to type 90wpm,
but he got a MS-Ergo board with his new computer,
and became optimistic about learning it because his typing slowed down immediately. I'm not sure if this applies to all people or Ergo boards, but my friend never ended up getting his typing past 70wpm again.
Otoh, when I switched to Dvorak, I felt less effort to find common keys as my hands don't really move as much anymore. I can type at my mind's speed limit without my hands getting tired for longer. (120 wpm, but I could type that in qwerty before I switched. Less errors, tho)
As others have pointed out, it's a bit pricey at $200US, but my wrists wouldn't survive without it.
The ability to touch type is a requirement for this keyboard. It took me about two weeks to get adjusted to using it. But now my typing is about 20% faster and with much less strain. If I spend more than 15 minutes on regular keyboard I can feel the strain in my wrists.
I remember some time ago looking for a nice split keyboard. The ideal one I was looking for would split into 2 seperate halfs so I could position them on my desk the way I wanted. After some searching I found one.
:(
If you have a look here, there are a list of split keyboards (the Kinetik isn't here, as it isn't a split keyboard - either is the MS one). The keyboard I really like is the one at the end of the page... They also sell a really nice chair that has the 2 parts of the keyboard attached to the arms, and they can be adjusted around to axes.
However, I might buy a Kinetik one - they look nice. Asked my boss to buy me one in work and she laughed...
Oh, on of the pages somewhere around that link also lists other types of keyboards, including the Kinetik and the MS ones, as well as some other ergo keyboards.
Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which is very good, especially if you have very large hands. (As is their mouse, suggesting that they ought to concentrate on hardware...). However, it does take some getting used to, since it is quite a radical design (central hump, angled hands etc).
Otherwise, the bigger the keyboard the better. Sun keyboards are very nice, for example.
But most important is to get one of those strips of 2 1/2 inch thick foam to wrest your wrists on. That makes the most difference for me.
I think it's important and that keyboards match your hand size.
-----
While these KB's are completely anti-ergo 8^) I have to agree with the above poster. I've been using one of these for 10 or 15 years now and it is definitely the best feeling KB I've ever used. Built like a tank, with a very "solid" feel. A KB built like one of these old IBM beasts, but with a modern ergo design would rule.
I have a Kinesis Maxim which I like a lot.
And yes, I actually do adjust it often.
Still, frequent breaks are important. I
try and take a thirty second break every
five minutes.
Best of luck.
--
John B. Lee
Social and Decision Sciences; Carnegie Mellon University
John B. Lee
Social and Decision Sciences; Carnegie Mellon University
jbl@andrew.cmu.edu
I'll have to do a "me too" post. I tried various so-called ergonomic keyboards before the datahand, and was still suffering badly. I was to the point that 5 minutes of typing would cause my hands to knot up, and was looking for an alternate career. As a last resort, I bought a DataHand, and after a couple weeks I had no pain in my wrists, and haven't had any since.
There is almost no movement required of one's fingers on this thing, and your hand is kept in a very natural position.
It is an expensive keyboard, but well worth the price.
BTW, other things that help are a good chair, a low desk (most are too high, I took a saw to mine), the dvorak layout (which I use on the datahand) and a coffee break once an hour or so.
An X-mapping will work except for ONE key, the comma, which fails to generate the correct code when shifted.
:)
So Datahand sent me a ROM to fix it. I should note that I have a DH-200 (older model.) Also, it took me a lot of back and forth to get datahand to do this. They have a VERY limited staff. They're helpful once you can get a hold of them and if they remember to call you back
I think dvorak vs. querty doesn't matter as much on the datahand, because your fingers move so little in either. But it helps to know dvorak so that when you have to type on a standard keyboard, you can survive a little longer.
Now I just want someone to build a notebook with a datahand keyboard in it. Lugging the two handsets around isn't feasible.
I use a maltron, and it's probably the best investment that my company has ever made in my physical well-being. Yup, they're $400. However, they're very well made, and the customer service is excellent (I have two versions of it and wanted to remap one key around, which I can't do on WinNT, which I am forced to use on the job, so they reprogrammed the chip for me). They're entirely hand-made, and light as a feather.
But perhaps most importantly, they have completely eliminated my CTS pain.
If more people bought them, the price would go down. If the price goes down, more people might buy them. Vicious cycle.
Besides, the cost used to be $200, and not enough people bought them....but they had no advertising or marketing or distribution.
Kirk
I use one maltron at work (WinNT only) and one at home (switched between WinNT and Debian GNU/Linux) and I have to tell you that they are simply the best keyboards ever invented. I had to completely relearn how to type, but in the process I eliminated almost all of my old, bad habits.
I used to have serious CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome). I didn't have surgery, but I did get regular cortizone injections, wear wrist braces when I worked and had acupuncture. What really did it to end the pain was the maltron keyboard....since using it I haven't had to do anything for my CTS pain...it's largely gone away!
And, I type faster and more accurately because the keys are placed in rational places (I use the regular QWERTY-like layout, not the MALTRON layout, in part because the MALTRON layout sucks for writing C++ code because of the placement of all the syntax characters in the MALTRON layout), increasing my productivity. And if I forget where something is on the keyboard, most of the non-text characters (i.e. ()[]{}, etc.) are placed in symmetrical positions.
Yes, they're $400. Do you have ANY idea how much a single worker's comp claim costs your company? And with new laws coming in, if anyone at your company gets a single case of CTS, it will literally cost them millions of dollars to do a RSI assessment. And acupuncture and rheumatologists and wrist splints aren't cheap either.
Look at it this way: You're paying $400 to be more productive and probably never have any wrist or finger pain and never have to have seriously debilitating pain. Is that a good investment? Probably.
I can write up a full review if anybody likes. (Rob?)
Kirk
My preference is for the Cirque keyboards (http://www.cirque.com). They make the funky little touch pads to replace mice. Their older Wave Keyboard 2 is nice and comfy, and has an integrated touch pad. it has the keyboard feet below the front of the keyboard letting you position your hands and wrists nice and flat. nice big platform to rest your wrists on too.
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
I use the FlexPro...only cost me $35 (yes, a far cry from the SRP of $399 on the web page). Looks like it's been discontinued though.
I like it--It was the best bet for me, since my parents can't touchtype (you can lower it back to a flat position) and I could adjust it for me when I write long email letters.
<tim><
At home, i use a PC Concepts ergo with a built-in trackpad. It's *wonderful*. The regular old split-layout ergo is much easier on the wrists, and the trackpad is even better, if you don't need too much precision. And the 6 key is in the right place for touch typists. :}
At work, i have one of the newer-model MS ergo keyboards. The keys themselves are better than the PC Concepts (as good as soft-touch gets), but the dinky arrow and home/pgup/etc keys blow. And the 6 is on the wrong side. And i'm using a wrist-killing MS mouse. But It's better than nothing.
If you don't like ergo keyboards, look for an ancient gen-u-wine IBM PC keyboard off an AT or RS/6000. *Beautiful* key touch, and they last forever. The only bad thing is they're noisy.
Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
Keyboard, schmeeboard. Has little to do with wrist pain. I know, I used to suffer from it.
My top tips are:
- (MOST IMPORTANT) Invest in a foam wrist rest which is the same height and length as the front of your keyboard. Cost about one quid (US$1.50). If it doesn't fit cut up a bulky glossy monthly computer magazine and wrap it in sellotape- works just as well and you can trim it to size.
- (VERY IMPORTANT) Make sure the desk and seat are at the right height. This REALLY makes a difference with wrist pain! We need to shift the weight off your wrists and onto your spine. With your feet flat on the floor, your upper legs should be horizontal, your back should be straight, your upper arms should be straight, your lower arms should be horizontal (resting on the chair arm rests), and your hands should rest comfortably on the wrist rest and keyboard.
- Get an adjustable monitor stand and make sure the top of the visible screen is directly at the height of your eyes. Once again discarded monthly bulky glossy magazines come to the rescue and make excellent stackable monitor stands! Or use last year's telephone directory. This will stop you "crouching" and will ease the pressure off your wrists- your SPINE should be supporting your weight, not your hands, remember.
- Move the monitor DIRECTLY in front of you. You, your keyboard, the desk and your monitor should all be in a straight line. More to do with back and neck pain than wrist pain but again any weight shifted from your hands to your spine will help a lot.
- Try adjusting the height of your keyboard. Try it with and without the feet/struts or whatever your keyboard has.
- Type with both hands, don't hunt-and-peck, especially if you are left-handed. Your brain is quite capable of dividing up the keyboard into left-half and right-half without the aid of Uncle Bill's alien ergonomics team.
- Use the mouse a lot? Bad news is that Microsoft IntelliMice and ErgoMice are actually MOST EXCELLENT- if only their software was as good as their mice! The ONLY Microsoft product I recommend! Also a mouse pad with integral wrist-rest will help, as will a wider arm rest on your chair, or using a corner-shaped desk. You need to rest your elbow when mousing, otherwise you are going to put weight on your wrist again...
All of this learned on a one-day training course at IBM Warwick, UK!
Okay, you can start flaming me about recomending Microsoft Mice now.
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
I pick these up whenever I find em. :> )
However, I know that many of the earlier PS/2's did have the good-quality keyboards. (I've stolen some from them myself
The way to identify this one is that it has three buttons above the spacebar between the split; a 'mouse' button, a tab and backspace (This is where MS put the three lights). There is also a Macintosh-like "power" key in the top right corner (a left-pointing triangle).
I have seen this with and without a touch-pad, and I have even seen the wrist rest in white and gray colors. I own the one with the touch pad (never use it) and the white wrist rest. This keyboard is AWESOME. Durable, reliable, and quite comfortable. I highly recommend it. You should be able to find it at most large computer stores (eg: Comp USA)
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
MS Hardware is not evil.
:-)
They probably stole the design from somebody
I just got a 2.0 a few weeks ago and like it. You're right about those half-sized cursor key, but I just use the numeric keypad. I'm a programmer, not a data entry drone, so I don't have a need for the keypad anywho. With a ten dollar rebate, the keyboard only cost $30 too.
Yeah, IBM did know how to make keyboards. I've still got mine somewhere and for years I would use it in place of whatever piece o crap came with the system. A little annoying if someone else near you is using one however, but nice for you.
These days, however, I'm using a MS Natural instead. It's doesn't have the great keys, but the ergo setup is a better than even swap I think, especially if you program all day.
And use what? If you want an ergo keyboard, there isn't another good one around. I checked several computer stores (best buy, compusa, computer city) and couldn't find any other non-cheapo ergo keyboard. As for the Kenesis, they are too expensive. I paid $30 for my MS Natural (after $10 rebate), which is hard to beat. That Kenesis might be good, but not ten times as good!
I've got a Lite On keyboard ... Great keyboard, only set ya back about $40.00 to. got mine at microcenter... very nice keyboard, very simalar to the microsoft natural 1.0 's
"The clay can become a bear, but not while it lays cold and wet on the riverbank." -Orson Scott Card, Children of the m
Datahands are pricey ($900 with a student discount), but well worth it. I've had one since September and my wrists have improved considerably. All that the MS keyboards do is make my wrists hurt more.
However, you must remember that the best hardware in the world isn't going to help much if you keep on typing for 16 hours straight. Take breaks every now and then. Otherwise you'll just get worse again. Even with my Datahand, after a couple hours of typing my wrists are sore and I need a rather long break and need to massage my carpal tunnels.
All the email in the world isn't worth losing your hands. Try to cut as much of it as you can out of your life. Stop reading and posting to high-traffic mailinglists, reduce your time on IRC, etc.; do whatever you can to reduce your typing time. It truly is worth it.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
I have both Adesso Truform and Nuform keyboards on the Macs we use here in the lab. I like them both rather a lot, though the Truform seems to be easier to type on for long periods. It took some getting used to, though. I have the ones with the little "eraser nub" pointer in the center. These are good products for the price.
Dog is my co-pilot.
I have b asically a clone of an MS Ergo, by a company called Belkin...it was half the price ($45 Cdn) and has a better feel, IMO.
I got it because I was really starting to have troubles with my wrists and tendons. It seems to have helped a lot.
\Brian
Here's a homebrew ergo keyboard made with surplus parts, total cost $14. I was going to put this up next week, but since we're on the topic, I threw this page together this morning.
http://thecraftstudio.com/bcboy
Disclaimer: if you can't use powertools safely, or use of this design makes your arms fall off, it's not my fault. Use at your own risk.
I picked up one of these, thinking it would help. I didn't. The chicklet keys are horrible, and fatigue my fingers very quickly. Also the device is not tapered toward the shorter fingers, so I can't get it in a position where all fingers can comfortably hit any of the three keys. It's worse on my wrist than a normal keyboard, by far.
I'd much prefer a two-handed design, with one key per finger (no stretching), or perhaps two for index or thumb. Also soft keys, not chicklet.
I collect those things - I rescued three from the trash heap so far. Most users simply aren't very picky about their keyboards - they don't type, they click around with the mouse. Anyone who actually types prefers a clicking keyboard like those old IBMs.
Focus also makes some very nice keyboards, very inexpensive too. Nicer click feel than the IBM's I think, a tiny bit lighter.
How about those Happy Hacker Keyboards? Has anyone used those? How do they compare to classic clicking keyboards?
support gun control: take guns from cops
My only question is, is the backspace two keys wide or one? There is a nice one at work that has a small backspace key, which I personally can't get used too.
There is also a focus keyboard there which is reall nice and super clicky (ie the one I use).
-Rich
That's funny; I use an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (Model 80/111, 2x120MB ESDI hard disks, 12MB of 160ns RAM, 20MHz Evergreen 386DX->486 upgrade, tape drive I don't know how to use, NT 3.51, ex-Midland Bank fileserver), and I really like the keyboard. But you're saying that the earlier IBM keyboards were even better. I must try to get hold of one.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Amen, my brother, Amen.
:)
It completely boggles my mind how a company could make a computer peripheral that could withstand the test of time like these things do. Lemme check the date on the bottom of mine here: IBM, 1984. The damned thing is 15 YEARS OLD, and works just as well as the day it was assembled. Beautiful!
I don't know who the fool was who made the 'cost-saving' move to the new, plastic nastiness keyboards. I find that my typing speed, and most anyone's, _easily_ doubles when they are using one of these dreams.
I usually find surplus/computer auctions have them, if you're lucky. You can sometimes pick up a box full of 'em for under $10
This is the only place I've found, so far, that sells them online:
http//www.pckeyboard.com/IBMSales.htm
My biggest problem with the M$ Ergo keyboard is the feel of the keys. Since they aren't mechanical if you don't hit them dead-on there's a significant increase in resistance that's aggravating to my finger joints.
Mechanical keys such as those on an IBM keyboard have the best feel.
Kinesis keyboards are fantastic. I have one of the QD's (qwerty/dvorak switchable w/ legends for both on the keycaps), but everything from the classic on up is switchable to dvorak (Progrm-Ctrl-F5). They cost ~200+, but are well worth the investment.
- dave f.
oh yeah, goto http://www.kinesis-ergo.com
What is it about "ergonomic" keyboards that makes them better? It has never occurred to me to replace my keyboard for "ergonomic" reasons...
-Steve
at least the best standard Keyboards. I have seen lots of them being sold for almost nothing in the recent past.
These keyboards are obvously OEMed by almost every computer tidbits manufacturer. I have a LiteON version with touchpad and a TRUST version without it. The touchpad comes in pretty handy if you just want to change windows - no need to move tha hand, just drag the index finger cross the pad. It happily coexists with my mouse.
The typing is not as marvelous as it is with the IBM keyboards from heaven (mentioned in an other thread here) but quit comparable to the Microsuck keyboard. And it features a HUGE wrist rest. Its my daily-business keyboard and did not fail within the last two years. I bought the version with touchpad for approx. $70, without pad for $30.
Fionn
Can't see what's wrong with thos Win95 keys - I think e.g. under Linux they make a nice replacement for the Sun Meta Keys I was missing. Now, if only I could find a PC keyboard with those "Stop", "Again", "Props", etc. function keys like the Sun Keyboards... :-}
Argathin
And if you switch to the Dvorak layout, all of the keys for vi get moved around. I guess I could adapt to all of them except ...
HJKL as arrow keys. I am a slave to these keys.
I have used Microsoft Natural keyboards, but the Silitek SK-6000 is much better for me (and my bursitis) because it has a much lighter touch. Dell sells them, and I've seen them for $40 at CompUSA.
I've got a cirque wave keyboard (w/touchpad). While I almost never use the touchpad (unless I'm in bed), the rest of the keyboard is great. In fact, my mom got one almost identical (without the touchpad). It comes with a mouse input (so the keyboards long cable acts as a mouse extension cord). Nice at times. I think microsoft put the '6' key on the wrong side (esp since one of my usernames is bc80267). The feel is also great.
MRSH-Recording device, corned beef sandwich with kraut, seafaring bird, and the foamy top of a beverage.
I had trouble with wrist aches a while ago and I got a Gel-eez wrist rest and mouse pad from Case Logic. It's helped alot. They're on the order of $10 from Best Buy like places.
I haven't tried the arched MS natural-like keyboards. Are they really that much better?
What I'm looking for is a SILENT keyboard. I need a keyboard that doesn't make any noise at all.
Does such a beast exist?
I suppose I could duct tape a pillow over my keyboard. (But then the back lighting would be a fire hazzard, wouldn't it... ;-)
I just use a Microsoft Natural keyboard, (version 1, the new version isn't as good, the arrow keys suck), but the key to using this keyboard is to flip up the bar underneath that raises the FRONT of the keyboard, for added wrist support. The last thing you want to do is to raise the back of your keyboard, that's only harder on your wrists. It takes a bit to adapt to this keyboard once you get it, but then you'll find that your wrists don't ache near as much, and it makes you a better typist as well. My boss has a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard, and that costs a lot more $$$ and takes a little longer to learn, but it's even more friendly to your wrists.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
Back in the dawn of history (1984-86 or so :), IBM's keyboards were made by the Selectric typewriter division. Cost $200 or so to replace, had a big iron plate in their base to hold 'em on the desk, proper switches under every key. Depress the keys and they go 'click' with a lovely positive feel -- you don't need to hammer them and you always know when you've mistyped something because you can feel it in your fingertips.
It's just a standard layout keyboard, but in tactile terms it's like the difference between a concert grand piano and a cheap consumer-market midi keyboard.
Those keyboards are built like brick outhouses; most of 'em are still soldiering on. The later keyboards are flimsy and plasticky, but in my experience there is nothing quite like an original PC-AT keyboard.
NB: They began cutting corners in 1987, around the time the PS/2 models began coming out. Later models look the same, but have cheap membrane switches underneath instead of being properly spring; basically a cheap plastic imitation of the real thing. I am talking about original PC-AT keyboards made between the introduction of the PC-AT in 1984 and the arrival of the PS/2 range in 1987, with the positive clicking action and the genuine electric typewriter feel. I picked this one up about two weeks ago for two pounds (UK currency -- about US $3) and it's great.
Why do authors of furry/sci-fi/erotic journal entries need to use the { and } keys? ;-)
I've been coding C++ for about 8 years now, and using the Dvorak layout for about 5-6 years of that. I do find that I have trouble with my right pinky. It's not so much because of the special symbols for the pinky -- most of those symbols are also mapped to the pinky for the QWERTY keyboard, they're just rearranged a little for Dvorak.
My pinky problems are twofold: first is that not all Dvorak mappings lay the keys out the same way, not even all "ANSI" Dvoraks are the same. The most recent example was, I think, the Redhat 5.2 Dvorak layout for console mode; the "=" and one other key are in the wrong place. I've seen the same in X keyboard mappings. Of course, these layouts can usually be changed, but that's a pain.
My other complaint is with keyboards that are physically different in the area of the pinky: some have a small "enter" key, whereas others have the L-shaped enter key. Then there's the Backspace key that's not always in the same place. This causes the Dvorak mapping of the pinky keys to move around in inconsistent ways. Really a pain for touch-typing, but then again, the QWERTY folks would have the same complaints.
Jim
I love the MS Naturals (old style) - like most people here I won't use anything else. But good luck finding the old style. Most people who have one aren't going to give 'em up. (I HATE the elites - yuck - what is that diamond thing???). Pair this with my Logitech Trackman Marble and I am in ergo heaven.
;-)
The old Naturals are very good and pretty durable - large keys (HUGE space bar!). Only thing is that the paint on the keys may rub off after a while. If you are reading this, then you probably aren't the type who looks at the keys when they type.
(Just as a note of caution: when I first saw it, I went eeehh, but after an hour or two I was in heaven).
Later,
Justin
Mu. P.S. The address you see is real. =)
And why is it so small?
I'd like a sculptured Dvorak or Maltron, please,
but it needs to have the control key in a reasonable spot.
I'd remap it, but I don't see an obvious candidate. They've already optimized away capslock.
I was wondering if anyone knows of any keyboards where the keys are backlit for computing in the dark. Just curious.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
Well, I actually have no use for one. I was wondering if there was such a thing.
I agree that it's better for you to have a light on when computing.
But the best light to use is a halogen light. This light approximates the light from the sun more than other lights sources and is better for your eyes. It keeps me from having headaches.
Unfortunately at work all the lights are flourescent lights in cubicals. By turning the lights off from above my cube, things are better. Oh well.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
Mine finally bit the dust after many years of heartless pounding. Best keyboard ever made -- you're not crazy.
The later IBM keyboards are not as good, but they're still better than anything else out there. Unfortunately, the IBM Aptiva I have has a typical cheap keyboard.
Has anyone tried the IBM keyboard with the built-in trackpoint? I'd like to check one out, but they're pretty expensive to buy sight unseen.
D
I've seen keyboards exactly like that at frys for probably under $80. I'm not sure if they're made by kinesis (I don't remember), but if not, they're the exact same layout. I would figure that the design would be patented. The keyboards looked like they were of standard quality and not just some cheap knock-off too. I tried it out and could get used to it (the're really wierd to use). I could see how, after a while, your typing speed could increase using one. It seemed like my fingers were very close to all the relavent keys. I read an article about alternate input devices a couple years ago and this style keyboard was one of the ones featured.
A side note is that the made for tv movie: Tom Clancy's Netforce used these keyboards as their keyboards of the future. BTW, the show was really bad but funny when looked at in present context (replace Will Styles from the movie with Bill Gates).
I use a kinesis here, and hit the curly braces with my ring finger. I don't notice it at all when I program, and will say that it has saved my wrists. If you don't like the location, get the configurable one and remap it -- I've switched many keys to more useful locations.
I have a Datahand, y'know the type with padded wrist rests and a well for each finger. I like it all right but I'm not sure if it was really worth the $750 (and that at a discount). What do other people with this keyboard think? I still have minor problems...
I get the feeling that different people have different problems and no single solution is going to work for everyone.
-- Moderation in all things, exceptions to all rules --
but I like the ergo from MS. I was in fact using it (good luck finding any ergos without that annoying Win key combo.) but I was inspired to paint my computer and I decided to return to my ole 101.
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
Although you have probably already considered this
I thought I'd mention that it may be worth examining your posture (there are loads of sites on the web concerning it just do a search for RSI!) also the best quality vanilla keyboard has got to be the Cherry G83!!
i use a microsoft natural elite (the kind you can get from dell) at work, and i'm extremely pleased with it. much better than the dell comfort keyboard...
[]
My SO and I have both been using MS Natural keyboards (version 1) for about 3 years now. We've been very happy with them. Note that the MS Natural keyboard doesn't have a "wrist rest", but instead has a place where you can rest the *PALMS* of your hands, leaving the wrists supported but not resting on anything.
I would question the above author's credentials for making such claims about the MS Natural keyboard. My SO has problems with her wrists, and the original MS Natural keyboard is the only one she's used so far that's allowed her to type without problems.
I usually *AVERAGE* 55K-strokes per day, and am very happy with the original MS Natural Keyboard. I did see the new "Elite" ones, and it does indeed look like they are inferior...
Sean
I have to agree with several other people who posted, maybe Microsoft should stick to hardware. Between their mice (which take a beating) and the keyboards I really like their hardware, it has always been a good solid enduring investment for me.
Even though I don't use my desktop PC near as much as I used to my MS keyboard has been great. The only problem I've ever had with it is now they letters on a couple of my home row keys are starting to show wear -- which isn't bad for how much I've used it in the last couple years.
I have a 1.0 MS Natural Keyboard. It works great and is constructed very well. Ever since switching to it my wrists are no longer sore after a few hours of typing.
Well, last month I spilled hot chocolate all over the keyboard, and it was a very syrupy, crystalized sugar hot chocolate mix. Needless to say it started behaving erratically. Well, I didn't want to unplug it from the back of the computer, because I've seen many cases where you need to reboot the computer to get it to work again once it disconnects. I had a 220 day uptime to protect on linux 2.0.34!
Well, I was able to take it fully apart, clean ALL the contacts, keys, and plastic layers and put it back together again without disconnecting it. I used to work near a keyboard repair shop and I can tell you that most every keyboard is a cheap piece of crap that can't be put back together in a sane fashion once you take it apart. Well, the MS 1.0 natural keyboard was built to be cleaned.
Not only does my keyboard look brand new and feel very comfortable, but my uptime is now at 260 days. I would highly recommend it!
-OT
I have a no-name (Kensiko) Natural Keyboard ripoff. It tilts back, which I like, and it has traditional F keys, arrow keys, and Ins, Home, End etc. It also has a Mac-style power key in the corner, which doesn't work on my computer, and three buttons in the area between the two halves of the letter portion: 1) a mouse key, which turns the number pad into a pointer controller; 2) a Tab key; and 3) a backspace key. I never use any of them, but some people might like them. Anyway, they don't get in the way, so there's not downside. I bought it at Office Depot for about $40, and I've been very happy with it.
The New York Times had an article a while back in the mildly amusing Thursday Circuits section, about this very issue. It said that the MS kind is NOT what you want, that an adjustable one is better for your wrists. I don't know. I'm not an ergonomist. I just type. All I can say is that this one's pretty comfortable anyway.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
Hate to defend Satan, but I kinda like the Wheel Mous, too. Sorry.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
Hate to defend Satan, but I kinda like the Wheel Mouse, too. Sorry.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
Subject says it all.
-- This
Let's see what people are actually using,
or maybe what they want to use.
-- This
I liked the idea of the Datahand a lot, and used it for a couple of weeks. However, if you look at the layout (for those who haven't tried one), many of the keys you have to "press" require a lateral (side-to-side) action of the fingers. Furthermore, I use the control key a lot, and its position required me to use my thumb a lot in an awkward position. These motions were not natural for me, and soon I had aches and pains of a different sort than I had with a regular keyboard. I also found it hard to relax my hands when using it.
:)
Let me add that I use the Dvorak layout and the people at Datahand were very accomodating to this fact - they even offered to burn a Dvorak-specific layout ROM chip for the keyboard. By that time, however, I had determined that it wasn't my cup of tea, and had returned it. Their customer service is superb, however.
I think Datahand is on the right track - we need to completely rethink how we input into a computer, and drop the old paradigms. A combo of the Datahand, a dataglove, and the Bat (which does chording) might be a step in the right direction
Soulfry
Actually, there are two alternative Dvorak layouts. The "official" breaks the brackets up, while the alternative puts them right next to each other (in the same spot as the - and = keys on a QWERTY).
I prefer the "unofficial" layout for coding.
Soulfry.
I switched to the Dvorak layout about a year ago and I'm still getting the hang of it. Part of the problem is that I broke by right hand when very young and my right pinky (pinkie?) isn't as strong as it needs to be to hit the 's' and 'l' keys with complete effectiveness. What really ticks me off, though, is that all of the major symbols Perl, C, and C++ coders use are also off that one finger.
It's made programming a lot more uncomfortable for me, and I'm not sure if it works for anyone else as well. If you touch-type, it's great-- this post is a breeze to respond to. But it can't be just my handicap-- has anyone else who codes in Perl or C noticed just how annoyingly the '{' and '}' are placed? It's enough to make me want to remap the keyboard again.
Elf Sternberg
If you're so smart, why aren't you naked?
I don't personally use a Maltron but I've experienced what some claim to be the holy grail of ergonomica. Even comes with it's own key layout (alternative to QWERTY) to increase typing efficiency. And it keeps people from using your workstation w/out permission.
Sorry for the shouting, but I chose my nickname 'kinesis' because I like my keyboard so much.
I do a lot of heavy lifting in the gym and a lot of typing at work... the combination was hell on my wrists until I got the Kinesis Ergo Classic. It just plain rocks.
In addition to being more comfortable when programming, I also do better at net Unreal. All those keys over by my thumbs (plus the foot pedals!) let me do lots of fancy stuff.
Definitely get the footpedals too.
The whole rig set me back ~ $300. Money well spent. Word is surgery for carpal tunell will run you several thousand dollars. The keyboard seems like a smart investment to me.
I don't know what's different about newer ones, but I got one not long after the MS Natural keyboards came out, and I love it. My wrists hurt to use any normal keyboard now.
>This is also true, but the fact is that it feels much nicer than qwerty.
Well, gee. Is that a *fact* now? Well, maybe you could enlighten us on a few other facts, like 1) KDE or GNOME? 2) chocolate ice cream or strawberry? 3) Quake 2 or Quakeworld?
Matters of personal preference...
Here are instructions on all the above mentioned OS, and quite a few others. Eli
s/nospam\.//;
Wasn't there some previous article about people from Microsoft being told to post raves about MS products in message board systems? Sounds like we found another one...:oP
My solution to the sore hand problem was to switch from QWERTY to Dvorak. I use this layout about 85% of the time now. The benefits: It's more comfortable than QWERTY, and it costs absolutely nothing. Here's how to get it:
Mac: Download the keyboard layout.
Win32: Open the Keyboard control panel and select Language. Click Properties, then select United States-Dvorak.
X-Windows: Create a remapping and run it through xmodmap. My xmodmap files are included at the end: One to switch to Dvorak and one to go back to QWERTY.
Another interesting looking keyboard is the Maltron. The original is quite pricey, but Teleprint sells a cheaper one. Note that it is largely similar in key sequence to Dvorak, but ergonomically sculpted. I have also created an Xmodmap for this one (mapped to a regular keyboard) that is more optimized for programming, but I haven't tested it out yet.
Overall the Maltron looks very similar to the Kinesis -- it's hard to believe it could be enough better to justify costing $200 more.
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
The keyboard should be just above your knees, so that you aren't lifting your shoulders in an unnatural way. The mouse should be at the same height, as close to the keyboard as possible, so you don't find yourself stretching to get to it. I just got a nice combination setup at work that allows me to raise and lower the entire surface, as well as tilt it forward and back. It's much better than just dropping a keyboard and mouse on the top of a desk.
The temperature of your work space makes a difference, too. When the thermostat at my office is set too low, I definitely notice a stiffness in my hands.
This site is all about RSIs and the things you can do to help yourself. Do a Google search on "repetitive strain injury" to find other sites.
I don't use arrow keys very often (I'm more of a mouser and don't use emacs much), and I love my MS Natural Elite, which I got for about $25 extra over the default keyboard when I bought a PC at PCs for Everyone last summer. PCfE was one of the first places to buy a PC with preinstalled Red Hat. Their quality is high and prices are most reasonabubble. Lifetime labor warrantee on all their systems. I'm a most happy customer.
...Nothing interesting here. Just move along...
All of the heavy keys are moved under your thumbs,
including Alt, Ctrl, Backspace, Delete, Enter and Space. This is perfect for the emacs abuser (no more leaning on an awkwardly placed control key with your pinky while you're thinking about what to do next). Also, the keyboard is completely programmable, so if you disagree with any of the layout decisions, you can probably fix it yourself fairly eaisly (in my case, I turn the hated CAPS/LOC key next to the A into another ESC).
There are two drawbacks: it took me about two hours to learn to use it, and another two weeks to get my speed back (on the plus side, no one else in the office can ever use my computer). The other problem is that the keyboard is a little flatter than I would like (I keep meaning to see if I can hack one to increase the hump in the middle a little bit).
Incidentally, these things come with a foot pedal (which is also eaisly programmable as any key on the keyboard, e.g. ESC, Cntrl...). I find them completely useless (I can twiddle my fingers faster than my feet), but experimenting with these things seems to be irresitable for your average geek.
I'm using a Chery G80-5000 since a few years. It's adjustable in lots of ways, and best of all, has the windows keys the way they should have always been. They are on the left side of the keyboard, like the function keys on the old XT style keyboards, and they have 'left' and 'right' written on them!. There should be several variants with and without click, I personally perfer the no-click version.
I also have a Marquartd mini-ergoII (not adjustable, cursor keys in the middle, pageup, down and pos1 , end as well as the numeric pad can be used with a "fn" key) Although i think it's much more comfortable than the average 10$ keyboard, i don't like it because the blind-typing marks are just little embossed lines on the appropriate keys. I don't like it...
Rainer
As part of a Microsoft promotion when the Ergo keyboards first came out, I got two for $99. (If I remember correctly.) I will use nothing else.
Recently, I got another computer and bought one of the new Microsoft keyboards. I tried using it for two weeks and found it totally useless. Whoever came up with the new keyboard layout should be beaten with a rubber hose.
InitZero
I don't know about the old, metal IBMs you are talking about - I thought they were cool, but I like the soft, but tight action of the Keytronic Lifetime I'm typing on now.
Anyway, point is, I worked as a tech in a computer store for a while, and I saw some pretty messed up keyboards there. I found that many of the coffee/beer problems could be resolved by a run in the dishwasher - no detergent, warm water.
Of course, this is a last resort - only if you're about to throw it away.
-=Julian=-
p.s. MS keyboards suck. The old and the new. The shape is nice, but the action on the keys is TOO LOOSE. They keycaps feel like they are going to flake off or something.
I own one of Acer's ergo keyboards, with a touch-pad in the center. It works really well; my shoulders and wrists are doing alot better than they were half a year ago.
/juels
Throw away those dead-flesh cheap acky keyboards - INCLUDING the Microsoft 'Natural' - and go to your local junk PC shop who will have a ten-year old (hopefully little used) CLICKY keyboard.
Anyone remember the IBM DisplayWriter Word Processor? Now that's what I call ergonomic. Fingers literaly bounced from key to key with a lovely little clickette...
--------------------------------------------
There's a storm a-comin'....
There is a schism in Dvorak keyboards, albeit a minor one...the difference is in the keys between the top-row zero and the Backspace (the ones marked "-/_" and "=/+" on a QWERTY keyboard) and the second-from-the-left key on the top alpha row (the one marked "}/]" on QWERTY).
:)
On some Dvorak keyboards (the one provided with Microsoft Windows, for instance), the QWERTY "-/_" and "=/+" keys correspond exactly to the two bracket/brace keys to the right of the P in QWERTY. So underscore corresponds to left brace, plus to right brace, dash to left bracket, equals to right bracket. Meanwhile, the equals/plus key is simply moved to occupy the space of the QWERTY "]/}" key. (All Dvorak keyboards have slash and question mark on the key marked "[/{" on QWERTY.)
On the ANSI Dvorak keyboard (which was the one you got from ftp.apple.com and on some Mac Goodies CD's in the late eighties and early nineties), those keys instead are "]/[", "=/+", and "}/{". That is to say, the equals/plus key is identical to QWERTY, and the right/left brackets and right/left braces are put on the underscore/dash and right bracket/right brace keys, respectively.
"How strange!" is the thought of many people on seeing this layout. It looks counterintuitive for the LEFT bracket or brace to require the shift key while the right ones do not.
But in fact, I like it better. It was designed for text typing, where it is very likely that if you are typing an opening brace or bracket, the next character you type will be upcase, and thus also require the use of shift.
Of course, that's not usually the case in coding. But it happens to work nicely in Perl--you're probably going to type a dollar sign after the open-bracket anyway.
Try both layouts and see which you like. If you're a Linux user and you don't have xkeycaps, for shame! RPMs and other packages are available everywhere. Unlike the Macintosh 'Keycaps' desk accessory, xkeycaps' primary purpose is not to display the current key layout, but to let you change it on the fly--getting it back to the default with a click.
Run xkeycaps and leave it running in the background (since you might get the keyboard into a state where you can't run xkeycaps again from the command line!) until you figure out how you like your keyboard. Then you can have it write out the current keyboard state into a file, all ready to be 'xmodmap'ed next time you log in!
All you need is the 3M gel-filled wrist rest
(model WR512). I so love this thing.
The _old_ MS keyboards are quite comfortable in my opinion. Stay away from the newer ones (especially the USB ones) because out of the dozen or so I've sold to customers, almost all have asked for new keayboards. The keys stick when typing (not physically, but it's really easy to double type)plus the USB ones actually lock up. But I digress :) The older, clunky MS ones are still hanging around older stores, and I love those.
If you haven't already, try getting a gel-filled wrist rest. I was having troubles a while back, and even the foam wrist rests (which did help some) didn't do the trick. I got a gel-filled rest and haven't had any trouble since, and I am behind a keyboard 8 hours a day at work and a couple hours at home.
I really hate the 'warped' keyboards. Ugly, heavy and bulky. If you must get one, at least get one of the clones and not the Microsoft 'Natural' keyboard. Microsoft doesn't deserve your money.
Had mild CTS a few years ago, still recovering. I was an attorney and am now a software engineer -- both heavy keyboard-using professions.
I never, ever type without wrist splints, and find the PC Concepts SK-6000 (split, ergonomic shape, touchpad) keyboard least painful. It's also dirt-cheap at Fry's Electronics.
The touchpad is good because it forces the mouse motion into your entire arm, rather than a standard mouse or (even worse) a trackball, where you'll tend to twist your wrist to move the cursor. I still use a mouse for Quake, of course.
Take frequent breaks; get a good chair (spend $1,000 and write it off as an unreimbursed job expense); remember to move your arms as you type rather than resting them on the table.
Microsoft actually sent me a Natural keyboard just as the new elite models were being released. Clearing inventory, I guess. It took a few days to get used to, but I just LOVE the thing.
Biggest drawback: with the front raised (you'll want to do this to save your wrists in almost all cases) the keyboard is over 3 inches tall. That means it won't fit in most keyboard drawers. If you have the skill to build your own keyboard drawer or the money to have someone else do it for you, there's really nothing to complain about it.
I used to suffer from tendonitis in my wrists and hands (I am 19) and now have virtually no problems except for really long days (12-14 hours). I have a regular QWERTY and don't use wrist pads. What I have found helpful is:
1) Have good wrist/back/head posture, no slouching or tenseness!
2) Take a breaks to walk around, stretch, and focus your eyes on far away objects. And blink often when at the monitor. (goes for television watching / console game playing too!)
3) Do not let the room or your hands/wrists get cold, they get tight and prone to injury. If you're in an office with air conditioning, wash your hands periodically in very warm water for a couple minutes.
4) If you ever get pain real bad, immediately take a long (all day) break and take two ibuprofen (Advil) with each meal to reduce inflammation, swelling and pain.
Hope this helps!
[ Aaron Shaver ] [ ultravoid@usa.net ]
Aaron J. Shaver - aaronshaver@yahoo.com "Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russel
The Old (1.0) Microsoft keyboards are my personal favorite. They work extremely well. The new ones (1.1, elite) keyboards are smaller, but they also work well to eleviate strain when typing. The placement of the arrow keys and the insert/delete/etc. keys really bugs me when I use them, but others say that they are easy to get used to.
BTW, Microsoft does not do any hardware work in their company. They just contract it out and put their name on it. This allows me to trust Microsoft hardware a little more.
It's not like the keyboard stops you from using Dvorak. I've been using Dvorak for about a year now, on QWERTY keyboards. If you have to look at the keys, Dvorak isn't going to help you anyway.
Well, yes, that chap's name was Dvorak, so he did have a vested interest. But it doesn't take a genius to do a simple test. Use an anagram program to check how many things you can make with asdfghjkl; or with aoeuidhtns and you'll see the difference.
I was lucky enough to get one of these during their short life on the market, and I love it! I had been looking for exactly this sort of thing for years.
Besides its 3-part, completely configurable design, I also like that it has two sets of arrow keys, and I can detach the numpad entirely if I don't want to use it. It's also handy being able to put things between the two halves, such as the mouse, papers, food, etc... And there's no Windows keys to get in the way while playing games during my occasional visit to Bill-land.
The only complaint I have is that the cords between sections aren't long enough. I want to do really weird stuff like hang one half from each side of my chair, or off the sides of my desk, so a 6-foot cord would be necessary.
Combined with nifty Dvorak drivers, it's some of the best money I ever spent.
Microsoft designs its own hardware. I don't know who makes it, but I am sure they farm it out.
I gotta add my voice to the chorus of agreement. I learned to type on a selectric II, (c'mon guys, I'm not THAT old...) and for years I dreamed of finding a keyboard with that sort of positive feedback. Then one day, curb-crawling, I found a pile of stuff some rich guy was tossing out, and it had The Keyboard in it. Yup, one of those old AT keyboards. Beautiful, beautiful - 10 foot cord, mechanical click action, heavy enough to use as an anti-mugger device w/o damaging it's intended function.
Ok, ok. Enough raving, you all know the good qualities of this thing.
I just wish that 1) It had F11 & F12 keys, 2) It had a separate cursor keypad, and 3) There was a split-hand design available.
Wanted to thrown in my vote on the MS keyboard. I have three old ones and one new one. After a small period of adjustment I find that I prefer the new one and am going to upgrade.
/.er mentioned.
I haven't had problems with sticky keys that another
I do find that I have worn out my old ones though, and in a shorter time than I find acceptable. The old ones, without exception, are now requiring harder keystrokes and feel generally worn.
I like the new cursor keys a lot. I don't have small hands, but I like anything that is large enough to hit reliably and small enought to reduce finger stretching. I find the new key's to match that test.
Someone mentioned mice also. I like the MS mouse a lot, and use them on the machines that I use right handed. I found a few years ago that switching from my preferred left handed only mode to a mixed mode of mousing made a huge difference in my level of pain. Problem is MS doesn't make a left handed mouse.
Don't you mean the Apple Extended KB? I've got three of those MFs at home. The one I actually use is 10 years old, and has probably seen more spills than the "agony of defeat" guy. The only differencees between the Extended and the Extended II is that the II has a dingus at the back to adjust the height, the key action is completely different, the II is a little more round and the Apple logo is at the top of the II, not the bottom.
OTOH, the Apple Adjustable keyboard is without a doubt the finest ergo KB I've ever used. It's split down the middle, and can be adjusted to fit the user. That's the biggest beef I have with the MS ergo; it's at just the wrong angle, and hurts my wrists. The Apple Adjustable also has a detached keypad with 15 function keys. The biggest drawbacks to the AAK is that it takes up a *HUGE* amount of desk real estate, it only works with Macs (unless anyone knows of an ADB-to-PS/2 adapter) and they are very hard to find.
The Cheese
Stay away from those funky microsoft egro keyboards.
Greetings,
>...Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
ACK! Not at ALL...
It's: 'And it hurt none, do what thou wilt,' shall be the whole of the law!
Cyberfox!
Greetings,
No argument... SOLID keyboards. Everyone looks at me like I'm nuts for hunting for ancient keyboards, but they don't have the soft MUSHY feel that most keyboards now have, AND they don't have the damn Windows keys.
Now if only someone would make a laptop with a keyboard like that...
(Or one of the 'ergo' keyboards with a full-click... That might be interesting.)
Cyberfox!
I found a page a while back with a load of chording keybds. Lost it though, try wearables.blu.org for a list of chorders. Handykey.com recently had a sale on twiddlers, I picked two up for US$294. Don't think the sale is going on anymore.
u don't need to go overboard and get the best egro keyboard, (don't get micro$oft) the most popular design of egro is by PC concepts, almost water proof, I have spilt everything on mine and after it dryes out it works perfect.
http://www.cirque.com , they primarily make mouses but they use the PC concepts design with there touchpad built in (very useful when being lazy and not want to reach for the mouse)
it runs for about 50 bucks and I have had mine for 3 years , and my carpal tunnel syndrome has been fine.
-------------------------------------------------
I always dismissed those split ergo keyboards as funky and unnecessary, but my parents bought me one for Christmas and I have gotten used to it and really like it. Aside from being more comfortable when you get used to it, I found it has substantially increased my typing speed, even on regular keyboards. It forces you to type properly. No more reaching over for those T's and R's with my dominant right hand because they are so much farther away now it's easier to type them properly. I would recommend them for anyone.
When I went shopping for an ergonomic keyboard a while back I went to all of my local computer stores and tried typing on all of them to find which ones had the best feel for me.
The one which felt the best for me was Acer Futura. It's just about the ugliest keyboard I've ever seen, the keypad is detachable (which I really don't like), the arrow keys and the page up/page down keys are strangely organized, but it has a great feel and if you like touchpads it has one built in. I think its sales really bombed because they were going for $40. US after a $20. rebate.
I will take a moment and flame Acer for screwing me out of $20. I bought 2 keyboards (one for home & another for work) and sent in both receipts with two rebate coupons in the same envelope. The receipts were from two different dates, but for some unknown reason Acer said I submitted a duplicate rebate and only honored one of them. No amount of complaining has gotten any response from them.
Back in the "Good 'Ole Days" (i.e. at uni) we had Sun IPC and IPX workstations. Those keyboards are just so beautiful - when I first started using them, I was practically typing as easily (and as fast) as thinking. There is just enough feedback on the keys that you know when one has been pressed, but so little resistance to your pressing that you expend zero extra energy on typing.
When I first switched to using the Sun workstations, I had previously only used Nerd-bury, er, Newbury workstations, with their very average keyboards (although they were cool cos they allowed to to program your F keys to any key combination you liked, up to something like 30 keys a piece - very useful for MUDs...). So, when I first typed on one of those Sun keyboards, it was an almost sensual sensation...
If anyone ever finds out that Sun have decided to make those for PCs and/or Macs, and preferably with a switch for QWERTY/Dvorak (like the Dvorty), let me know, eh?
I'm still waiting for someone to make a programable keyboard with a little LCD on each of the keys. This way, when you change the meaning of your keys around, it is immediately reflected on the keyboard.
I could really do with this for several reasons - Firstly, I write software for a French company, who has a Spanish counterpart for whom we also do development. So it would be really handy if I could switch keyboard layouts to be able to easily get at all the relevant accented characters. Secondly, I wanna switch to Dvorak, but my wife doesn't (guess who wins). I know that a Dvorty keyboard would solve that problem, but that's only good if I am content with the default Dvorak layout, and don't want one that's got the punctuation located somewhat more usefully for a programmer. So LCDs really would be it!
Another nice use would be making a little keypad to plug into your laptop for playing games (after all, most games nowadays only require a few keys, no longer the entire keyboard). Then you need a pointing device that can be held completely in one hand, without needing to rest it on a table (if anyone knows of one, let me know). Then add glasses with little LCD screens (I actually saw these being sold by a company for aroun $1000 with a resolution of, I believe, 800x600). Finally some normal headphones, and you can play games on your laptop without even opening it... fun, eh?
my computer i got from compusa pc come with a microsoft natural keyboard and at first i didnt like it, but after a while it turns out i liked it more than generic keyboards. just takes a little time getting used to. the only prob is that it bears the microsoft label, which i scratched off with a sharp knife and put a linux penguin sticker on to replace it.
Yes, the IBM selectric style keyboard rocks (and not just the noise). I type about 40% faster on one of these keyboards then I can on any other keyboard. And I've _NEVER_ seen one fail. The one plugged into my Dual PII-333 Winders box was made May 6, 1987, the one on my Linux workstation was made May 2, 1987. My wife has one that's a little bit newer (an IBM Options with the funky little trackball) that has exactly the same feel as the old ones. And yes, they all have the big double-size backspace key and NO WIN95 KEYS!
Of course, I don't touch-type so the ergo-keyboards really screw with me... Plus, using a text editor like JOE that uses alot of ALT and CTRL key combos just doesn't work well on an ergo keyboard.
I personally own a microsoft ergo-got it at a good price, and so far it has been a good quality keyboard, maybe they should just stick to hardware.
These are all reliable sources of ergonomics information:
Univ. of California, Berkeley's Ergonomics Program:
http://www.me.berkeley.edu/ergo
The typing injury FAQ
http://www.tifaq.com
General ergonomic environment tips provided by Old Dominion University's Department of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences:
http://www.ocean.odu.edu/ug/ergonomics.html
Human Factors and Ergonomics Society:
http://www.hfes.org
Cumulative Trauma Disorder News site:
http://ctdnews.com
I think the Kinesis are good for people who
type constantly, all day. I don't do that, and
I found it hard to use when I was just leaning
back to think, then going to the keyboard to
type a few characters. If you're not touch
typing it's harder to use, IMHO. I'm keeping
it just in case I ever get back into massive
coding mode, though...
I like the Acer Future. It is a nice compromise
between the Kinesis and a regular keyboard. The
two sections and the forward tilt are very good.
I use it on a regular basis.
BTW, I highly recommend the Microsoft Intellimouse
Pro, not the regular one. It's tilted just right
for right handers, and it's got some good nubby
texturing on the sided. I do wish it had a
thumb button, though...
Mike Persons
mpp@phydeau.com
Dilute! Dilute! OK!
I seem to remember it being called a J-key or something, I think the origonal design used the j key as the little nib instead of having a seperate little red (or whatever color) thing inbetween the keys.
Whelp... I used the Micro$oft keyboard for the longest time and it worked just great. Then I found the Kinesis Essential keyboard. This keyboard is pretty cool and very expensive. My only real gripe with it is that the "~" key is in the wrong place. Same finger for you touch typers, it's just down instead of up :)
I got my Essential at a http://www.dmb-ergonomics.com but as I paid $200US for it. I bet if more people bought them they would come down in price.
I have this Kinesis keyboard. It's fantastc.
You will not find a better keyboard. About
half the engineers I work with use it as well
The down side is that it's not terribly cheap. ($200+)
Before you buy a keyboard, I suggest doing some
research and go find out about this item via
their webpage. "http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/"
Looking at their site, the keyboard I'm referring
to is the "contoured" one.
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contspec.html
-Michael
-elf@cie.cendant.com
I concur. In May I ordered a new PC. I received the new Microsoft Elite natual keyboard despite my order for another type. I tried it for a few hours. Awful! The arrow keys are in a one-two-one diamond pattern (not the familiar inverted-T), and the Ins-Del-Home-End-PgUp-PgDown keys are laid out in a two-by-three pattern, not the familar three-by-two. I could not adjust, and quickly sent it back. I'm on a traditional-layout genuine IBM-brand 'board now.
Kinesis Essential. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com.
I'm glad to see this discussion on ergonomic keyboards. I've got a old M$ natural keyboard at work which I really like, but want one for home too for assorted typing and game playing. I'm also very curious about the Dvorak layout, is it true that once you learn it you can easily switch back and forth between Qwerty and Dvorak?
I'm looking for a site that "rates" keyboards similar to cnet.com or computers.com? I haven't been able to find any. Since so many people reccomend so many different keyboards I'd like to see a set of ratings, although I'm leaning toward the slightly $$ Kinesis one.
Brett
__ No registration required to read this message. They did it in the Matrix.
Well, I'm convinced that I should at least try Dvorak now.. any references on where I can get some preferrably freeware code to convert my MS natural Qwerty/Win NT to this without buying new hardware? Whats XF86 anyhow..
Brett
__ No registration required to read this message. They did it in the Matrix.
well, considering that I have a qwerty at work, and may have a dvorak at home - that may be a bad combination. I wonder how many weeks it would take for me to learn dvorak if I'm using qwerty for 5 hrs a day already. Hm. Maybe I should convert both, eh.
__ No registration required to read this message. They did it in the Matrix.
I second your comments on programming with Dvorak layouts. It's actually not that much different than qwerty, in that all the punctiation is on the 'outskirts', but the braces in particular are far away (albiet right next to the parens, now.) If typing braces with your right pinky is a real issue, you might look at one of the on-handed Dvorak layouts. The left-handed one has the braces on the left side, although a bunch of the other punctuation is still on the right.
-or-
switch back and forth on the fly as needed. Sometimes, I switch back to qwerty to type certain things that use a lot of braces and backslashes, etc. I can do this because my keyboard has both sets of keys and a toggle switch that works much like a numlock or capslock, except it's a Dvorak lock! I can't say enough good things about my dvorak keyboard. I paid 70 bucks for mine six months ago, but now I see that they're down to 50. Not *much* better quality than a $25 CompUSA board, but you get the best of both worlds without funny drivers or modmaps, and you don't have to deal with the keys being the wrong height after you pop them off and move them around:
http://www.dvorty.com
Good places to check out if you're interested:
Introducing the Dvorak Keyboard
http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/
A Basic Course in Dvorak
http://www.zocalo.net/~danwood/abcd/
I'll shut up now, but if you want me to go on and on even longer, feel free to e-mail me.
mattyj@crash.cts.com
I agree totally. I've been using Kinesis keyboards since 1995, when I had some moderate tendinitis. A better chair with back support and good posture, a keyboard tray to put the keyboard in my lap instead of way out in front of me, a bunch of books under my monitor so it rose up to eye level, and a Kinesis keyboard collectively saved my wrists and arms from chronic pain.
:-)
I can actually type faster with the Kinesis now than I could with other keyboards, since the Kinesis has its keys arranged in vertical rows, unlike almost all other keyboards (including the crappy Microsoft Natural) which have the keys in staggered rows; staggered rows force your fingers to seek horizontally and vertically to hit upper/lower row keys, whereas on the Kinesis my fingers just have to move vertically. Much easier on the hands, and quicker to type. And it even works well for FPS games--the left hand keyboard well is very nicely contoured for speedy keypresses, and having all those keys under the thumb is also mighty fast!
www.kinesis-ergo.com -- check it out. I've turned on about six or seven coworkers to the joys of Kinesis since I got my first one, and I want this company to stay in business (not that I think they're doing badly) for my entire career
I have reviewed the epidemiological and ergonomic literature on
:)
.5 Newtons) and long, springy overtravels
:)
RSI and ergonomic keyboards as background for my dissertation.
I also visited Kinesis Corp. (the president Will Hargraeves
is a pretty nice guy) a few years ago and have struggled with forearm
tendonitis throughout grad school, so I thought
you all might like a summary of my experiences in this area. Much
of this info with full references will eventually appear in the
appendix of my dissertation:
Split keyboards like the Microsoft Natural effectively address
wrist fatigue brought on by extreme wrist postures. When trained
typists hold their hands on home row of a conventional keyboard,
they force their wrists into
"ulnar deviation" (rotation of the wrist outward to get the
fingers to lie straight along home row) and "forearm pronation"
(twisting of the forearms to get hands to lie on a flat horizontal
plane, as opposed to the more neutral forearm rotation when
holding a glass). Interestingly, all you two-finger, hunt and peck
typists out there may not have been taught to conform your hands to
home row and thus may already avoid these bad postures.
The more radical Kinesis design addresses
these posture problems too, the main difference being that
the Microsoft Natural tends to make you stick your elbows out
"like a chicken" (bad) and the Kinesis tends to force you to keep
your hands in a fixed position, which is generally bad even if
the fixed position is a relatively neutral one. Though the
Kinesis reduces the distance you have to stretch for keys,
when using any keyboard you should always reach for distant
keys with full arm motions from the shoulder. Planting the
wrists on the edge of the desk or even a soft wrist rest
and reaching with only the fingers strains finger tendons and
causes more pressure and friction in the carpal tunnel.
However, posture isn't everything. Epidemiological studies
of repetitive strain injuries in industrial settings suggest
that soft tissue injury begins to accumulate when the
PRODUCT of forces and repetitions applied through a tendon by
a given muscle surpass a long-term damage threshold (whose
exact value is not known).
Therefore there are three things you can do to avoid exceeding this
tissue damage threshold:
1. Reduce repetition. learn to use hotkeys, macros, etc. to improve
your efficicency. If you are a programmer who likes long variable
names, try
the variable name completion feature of Visual Slickedit (which I
suggested that they implement when I could barely type. Its pretty
cool when a company actually implements your suggestions when
you're to crippled to code it yourself--almost
wants to make you pay for their product
2. Take rest breaks every few minutes, and take a day or two off
every once in awhile. This allows your body to clear the
accumulated toxins from overused areas and gives microdamage
a chance to heal, getting you away from the long-term injury
threshold. Over the years I have become so attuned to my pain
that I can recognize a specific deep burning pain (unlike
superficial soreness) which tells
me if I stay at the computer another day I may cripple myself
for weeks, so I find something else to do for a couple days
till the pain subsides. I could tell you never to push on past
this pain regardless of deadlines, but most people (including me)
have to learn this lesson the hard way.
3. Use input devices which minimize activation force. For pointing,
touchpads from Cirque or Synaptics (the main OEM for laptops)
are good because you can click with zero-force taps on the surface.
I also have a large mouse-trak trackball which I
retrofitted with optical proximity sensors to replace the mechanical buttons.
I just place my fingers over the infrared sensors
without having to push down and am thereby able to use it 2-3
times as long without pain buildup. Avoid thumb-operated trackballs
at all cost--heavy use of them causes a nasty thing called DeQuervain's
syndrome. If you insist
on a mouse, the Microsoft mouse actually has good easy to press buttons, but
they screwed up their keyboard in this respect.
Several studies such as Michael Gerard's dissertation at the
University of Michigan, "Effects of Keyswitch Stiffness, Typing
Pace, and Auditory Feedback on Typing Force, Muscle Activity,
and Subjective Discomfort", have indicated that keyswitches
with low make force (.25to
(key movement past the electrical make point before bottoming out)
require less exertion from the finger flexor muscles.
However, if the make force threshold is made too small, the keys
will no longer support the resting weight of the hands, which
will cause extra exertion of the finger extensor muscles to
hold the hands up. As part of my dissertation I am exploring ways
to allow even lower force typing with full support of
resting hands, but much work remains to be done before this
can benefit any of you.
The Kinesis contoured models (not the Maxim) have specially
designed low force (.30N) keyswitches with long overtravels, and
even though the force threshold is so low, their palm rests support
the hand particularly well. However, the Microsoft natural uses
cheap, stiff, compressible domes instead of real springs under their keys.
According to the guys at Kinesis, Microsoft asked 300 people to try
different keyboards with different key stiffnesses to see what most
people liked best. The problem with this study was that people tend
to superficially prefer input devices which feel the same as what
they're used to, so Microsoft effectively measured the average
stiffness of all keyboards on the market instead of finding the
most ergonomic keyswitch. I have a feeling they just went with
the compressible domes because of cost, regardless of their study.
As some of you guys have mentioned, stretching and mild
strengthening exercises are also very helpful. But if your
RSI is getting serious you have probably lost forearm
strength (some people start dropping things) and should avoid
heavy weights which can cause further injury. I swam for a
couple years till I built back enough strength to begin using
5-15 lb dumbbells.
I would say more about speech recognition software, but I'm still
using OS/2. IBM refuses to upgrade their discrete dictation
product (Voicetype for OS/2) to the continuous version (Viavoice 98)
available for Win95,
and Voicetype for OS/2 is so slow and annoying that I try to avoid it.
I'm sure you Linux users are in a similar predicament.
But hey, I like using my hands
For those interested, I wrote an essay last year
about speech recognition on
alternative operating systems for the IACT web site:
http://pages.cthome.net/iact/24x7speech1.html
Also, the book "Repetitive Strain Injury: A Computer User's Guide"
by Dr. Emil Pascarelli and Deborah Quilter really helped me
cope and recognize my bad habits when I was first struggling
with RSI.
It's been around for a few years now, but by far, the best ergonomic keyboard I've *ever* used. I own one, in fact. these little beauties attach to the arms of a chair and articulate in most every direction to suit whatever needs you may have.
http://www.ergointerfaces.com/
check it out, this is one seriously cool piece of equipment.
The Darwin Smartboard is a basic split format similar to the MS Natural with a few differences.
The first major one is that it is a mechanical key type...the main reason I bought it. The second main one is that the key shapes are tailored based on useage to reduce the reach for the most commonly used keys etc.. Yet another is that this is about the same desktop footprint of a 'normal' large Unix kbd.
Now the bad news, the company is now out of business afaik, I LOVE this thing and literally was probably nearly the last order they filled. Does anyone know a source for these suckers, I'd like to get at least one more.
Yes!! It appears they are back, merged with another Co. . I really can't recommend one enough.
Thanks for the tip.
After reading all the above stuff about Dvorak I thought I'd try it on NT (yes, I know).
NT's (and I assume 95/98's) supplied Dvorak keymaps only make sense (for #, ~ and the pounds-sterling symbol) on US keyboards.
They don't seem to supply one for the UK layout. This is patently daft. Boo!
Needless to say, NT's keymap files are hideous binary things - even DLLs. No chance of fixing that then. Oh for xmodmap...
__ Em
I opened my first gen MS natural keyboard up and
it was a bunch of Mitsumi parts.
Just thought you'd like to know.
I agree - I have probobly 80 I bought after they sat out in the rain - most still work but I got them for a song
I say that Datahand page and it reminded my of a similar product at http://www.onehandkeyboard.com/ I haven't tried it but I thought it looked cool.
I learned the dvorak keyboard layout last year and picked myself up a Microsoft Natural Elite, in preparation for when I'm in my 50s and I've logged 80% of my life typing. I love the keyboard, I don't even mind the weird arrow keys. Besides, real Quake players use the mouse O:)
Learning dvorak was admittedly a pain in the butt but it was so worth it. Typing on qwerty now feels like I'm tying my fingers in knots, and I also picked up an extra ~20 wpm. I currently don't have any wrist problems, but I can remember my hands being fatigued after a long day of typing on qwerty. Haven't had that feeling since I switched keyboards and keyboard layouts.
I learned dvorak exclusively from typing tutors I found on the web. If you're like any more information about dvorak, feel free to send me an email.
Those are great, I used to use them at work to configure the servers for merill lynch.
In case a bomb is dropped on my house... but they'll probably all survive... ;P
When I first started working on a job at Hewlett-Packard, I spoke to their 'ergonomic specialist' (no joke) about the pain I was experiencing in my neck, wrists, and right shoulder, and she checked out my workstation. Sure enough, it sucked. She gave me a cheap but W-I-D-E keyboard drawer that basically fit in my lap and a small mouse pad that sat in the drawer directly to the right of the keyboard. Then she made sure that the keyboard was as flat as it could be to cut down on the wrist angle. More angle == more pain. The basic idea is that you position your stuff to keep a right angle in your knee, and a right angle in your elbow, and your neck straight, and avoid completely shitty chairs. I have long arms, so I can't deal with armrests at all. I've been happy ever since, even with tens of 16-hour hacking days in a row, and my only exotic peice of ergo equipment is a (sadly, discontinued) super-wide rubbermaid keyboard drawer.
I have had a problem with Ganglion Cyst in my right wrist for years. Used to be that if I spent more than a few hours typing, it would flare up and stay that way unless I stopped typing for several days ... an impossibility! Since using the Microsoft Natural Keyboard (ORIGINAL) it has gone away and stayed that way. I heartily recommend it!
I know lots of geeks who have the really spiffy keyboards with the cool features. I am using a Pc concepts with touch pad (it can be disabled but once use to it, I have faired better than with vaious other mices. ;-0 )
It is a raised board that arches I haven't used the high end ones but at $59.- I am quite happy and so are my wrists.
I hope this helps.
Phoenix
Carl Forhan
Songbird Productions
http://songbird.atari.net