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Ask Slashdot: Computer Charities for the Children?
Paranoid Diatribe wrote in with this worthwhile submission: "This past weekend, I wired my 4-year-old daughter's room with an old 486 running Win95 with a connection to my little LAN. Anyway, after seeing my daughter's face light up when she realized she could play in her own room, I got to thinking: What does it take to set computers, networks, internet, etc. for a "good cause"? Now I don't necessarlity mean getting the parts, and the physical side of things. That's relatively easy (though I wouldn't know how to solicit for hardware/software donations). I want to know the logistics of starting a non-profit organization where I can use my talents to benefit the children in my area. There's the legal aspect. The money issues. Tax issues.
And (as much as it sickens me), the liability issues. I live in Salt Lake City, UT and the climate around here is (to put it mildly) pretty conservative. The last thing I need would be to wire a local community center to the 'net to have some over-zealous local politician sue me because some poor kid stumbled onto an objectionable site while online. Maybe my fears are not justified... but I'd rather play it safe. Anyway, I'm so completely ignorant about this sort of thing, that I really don't know what questions to ask. Do any of you donate your talents and time for charity? Is it worth it? Is there a "right" way to go about this?" I think this is a worthwhile idea, but what is one to do about the already prevailent attitude in legislation that our children need to be protected from the Internet?
yes
Hey, I didn't even SEE a computer until I was 34, and now I can crash my windows machine as fast as the rest of you guys. Hell, I can even lock up linux at least twice in any one day (Hint: Use glint)
What people should really be worried about is t.v. Sure kids will find prurient material on the web, just as they will in their local 7/11. Sooo, just to be on the safe side, let's tape their ears and eyes shut except for those moments when we can directly and closely supervise.
.. but that was over a decade ago (being in elementary school, I mean). I think it's a great idea introducing Linux into the public school system because (a) it doesn't cost them anything (b) it doesn't make M$ any richer (c) the OS wont crash in the middle of a session (d) it may inspire kids to write some programs for Linux (teach kids programming skills). Too bad it's a little late for me to get anything out of it :(
"What you meant to say was..."
No, I'm sure he meant what he said. He may even believe what he said.
I spent a good portion of last summer ('98) teaching a course at such a non profit organization. The the goal of the organization, Computers for Children, was to accept donations of any sort (cases, ram, networking eqip, etc) and teach specially selected highschool students from the City of Buffalo public schools some general knowledge in working and building pc's. PC's the students built were then donated to several inner city schools (k-12).
The two main setbacks with this organization were storage space (it amazed me the amount of gear people were willing to donate) and finding qualified personel who were willing to work for next to nothing and yet work full time. The second of which being the most important.
Its the people who make a good company, oraganization, etc. If everything is in shambles the right ppl will always set it right. When placed in an non-profit organization it becomes nearly impossible to find qualified people who are willing to work for near minimum wage. Anyone who is qualified enough to teach students who have never touched a computer how to build them and explain how they work would be doing charity work of their to work for around $6.00/hr. Such an individual can easily make several times that with little effort.
If you would really like to learn about or even setup such and organization I really recommend you speak with Kate Attea, the Executive Dirrector at Computers for Children. She was in constant contact with the people who made everything work including the students.
If you speak with her tell her Doug sent you =)
I believe I actually saw some Quantum physicist solve this equation. It might not have been quantum physics (damn, I wish I was more familiar w/ all the theories), though. I remember he stated that it had something to do w/ the Universe and maybe Black Holes. If someone knows what I'm talking about, please reply.
Having sounded the obligatory note of caution, I'm all for people devoting time, energy, money, expertise and computers to groups who don't have computer access. Admittedly I'd find social equality campaigns, soup kitchens, and organisations to reduce homelessness more of a pressing issue myself, but hey, if your skills are in IT, then use 'em there. I've heard stories locally (UK) that you can ring up the offices of charities for the blind with "We've got a load of computers to get rid of..." and they'll be round with a van that same day. (I've also heard tales of woe from people who have trouble using the special software that is necessary for the blind. Providing support and assistance is as important as providing the machines. At least.)
Anyway, just some rambles from someone who has found voluntary work in various sectors a productive way to spend time.
Uh...can you type a little slower, please? I don't read so good.
I remember getting a C64 when they first came out, my teacher told my parents it was a terrible thing for them to do, apparently it would ruin my social skills, I would get fat cos i would never go outside etc. Can you imagine a teacher today having views like that. So what if I am overweight spend all my time reading slashdot et al and have no friends ;)
I didn't see anything they need to be protected from... Violence? You can't protect them from their own violent nature, but merely teach them not to get caught assaulting or killing people. Sex? Sex is harmless, better to protect them from disease and from people that will try to make them feel guilty about sex with each other, adults, or their pets.
The LSD^H^H^HLDS Church is a cult. 'Nuff said.
If we're talking about children being protected from rabid wolves and child molesters, I agree entirely. WRT the 'net, though, I think that the best way to protect children using it is to make sure that the kids know about such things, know why they're wrong (or objectionable, or whatever) and let them make their own decisions. This breaks down with very young children, or kids who aren't as fast on the uptake, but those are extreme circumstances, and in such cases I would support "protecting children." (how vague. How do you propose to "protect the children?)
The way to beat a bad idea is to propagate a better one, not pretend that the bad idea doesn't exist.
Of course, they apply this only to this century's technology. Books and toys have largely the same effects, do they not? By the logic of that study's conclusions, children should spend all their time playing with each other in the nude in an empty, white-walled room.
(Enter)
Damn... It didn't work... Where's the reset button?
Here in Melbourne Australia we alreadly have something like this. It is called Computer Bank, and is run by some guys at the local uni. I don't have much information for you on the subject but they have set up this sort of thing but using linux as the os, as It is suppose to allow the person to learn more about the internal workings of a computer. besides that you would get to many free licences of windows being handed out.
When I went to the Tech Museum in San Jose last April I stopped by their kids surf the internet exhibit. While I was there (hey I can still be a kid inside), a parent who did a search for Winne the Pooh managed to find an anti-semetic web page. It was a couple links deep in the search results, but it had managed to get through their "don't expose the kids" filter (don't know what they used". When the guy went and got a supervisor from the museum staff, the supervisors attitude was "look, we try are best, but unless we totally lock down the access, stuff will get through". So it appears that there is a best effort principle in effect. Of course that was in California, there might be different view points...say like in Utah ;) Rogue
Alright, I think this is a good place to post my two cents (even though this comment doesn't have a whole lot to do with the question asked) I think that our children DO need to be protected from certain materials on the Internet.. let's face it, there's a lot of stuff out there that even grown adults shouldn't be seeing. The question is not whether they need to be protected, it is: who's job is it to protect them? I my mind, it is clearly the parents' job. Unfortunately, it seems parents these days are lazy or simply don't care enough to watch over their children's shoulder. I think that we as the techies, programmers, internet protagonists, geeks et al. should be the ones to create the technology used to protect children... but leave the choice of using it up to "responsible" adults... (ie. not politicians). Anyway... I'll stop before I get too far in the mud. ;) (... there's a REASON I didn't login to post this message. ;) )
Alrighty, this is just rediculous now. Did you seriously believe even for an instant that this person was serious? You really think a pedophile would post details of a sex act with his/her own daughter on a news-for-nerds forum?!?! Good grief, man! That post was dripping with so much sarcasm I think Slashdot's gonna be messy for weeks! It wasn't a troll, it was frickin' sarcasm! Bloody hell ... people are getting dumber every day. This message awaits the demotion into -1 land but hopes it might be valued enough to at least score a 0 :)
Although a great idea, how many parents do you think would actually agree to something like that? Unfortunately, the trend today is for the parents to take almost *none* of the responsibility, and instead blame the schools for everything.
You can also donate old hardware to CUBA, and they'll use it in hospitals and schools.
Hi, I'm in australia and am currently prticipating in a "work for the dole" scheme working for unemployment benifits. anyway, it mainly consists of getting older machines from businesses, repairing them, putting in more RAM, a new hard drive, network card, etc, and then donating them to non-profit community organisations.
Before you dump that truckload, check out: http://www.esd.ornl.gov/facilities/beowulf/ ORNL has built a Beowulf-class supercomputer out of donated equipment. According the page, the nodes are: Mostly Intel 486DX-2/66 CPUs and an increasing of Pentiums, with every kind of motherboard imaginable (can you say heterogeneous?) 16-32 MB memory (most have 20 MB) 400-600 MB disk 10 Mb/s ethernet adapter
"What we need is laws that..."
Oooohh yeah..more laws will fix it..."..just another billion dollars and we'll win the drug war...another thousand "advisers" and we'll bring peace to Columbia... Please, NO more laws... I beg of you.
-I don't do coke for the high. I just like the way it smells.
>You got that right. So called "computer geeks" are graduating high school
>knowning nothing but Windows.
That's right. You're taught what you need to know just like no one is taught vacuum tube design or how to work a slide rule anymore.
Proprietary or not, a large percentage of the future workforce will have to deal with... you guessed it... windows! Kids should be taught the basics and then the skills they need to suceed in society proprietary or not.
Art, music, and it's ilk should be consigned to the realm of extra cirrucular activities only.
Can we send them from the states? Or do we have to send them to another country first?
[sarcasm on]
And if anyone DOES try to sue when a child gets into porn/bomb-making sites, simply call up the American Civil Liberties Union. I'm sure they'll be happy to defend the hapless volunteer. The ACLU is, after all, issuing lawsuits to counties to PREVENT them from installing filters, so they obviously believe that minors should have access to such stuff.
[sarcasm off]
But seriously, does nobody else think this is weird ? A significant proportion of the population believes that kids should be protected from porn &c, but the Civil Liberties folks insist that MINORS be allowed the opportunity to view such stuff online. Next thing we know they'll be telling newsvendors not to put porn mags on the high shelves...
And before anyone goes up in flames about protecting our Constitutional Rights - that's not what I have a problem with. Constitutional Rights need to be protected - and so do our children. What concerns me is that anyone should even attempt to protect the rights of porn-purveyors to display their "free speech" in front of my children.
I respectfully request that you should get a clue or shut the fuck up.
"Take a look at Not the MISD Page for a rebuttal..."
Aaahh, texas...need I say more?
I would like to suggest that you check out a book by a man named Anthony Mancuso entitled "How To Form a Non-Profit Organization. It contains most of the bread and butter mechanics of what you need to know.
Children are born "little savages". They will remain that way without supervision and guidance. "Lord of the Flies" makes a good read on this. Only with interaction with other humans and guidance from caring adults can make them cilivized. Computers in the classroom in a group setting can only help. I'm not so sure about computers in the child's room, where (s)he is alone.
Many states have programs for helping schools with exactly this. I suggest you contact the office of the the governor of your state and ask about such an organization. I would imagine that working under such a group would protect you from liability.
I want my GUI
-zero bites
Boy, did you guys get fished in!!!
-I don't do coke for the high, I just like the way it smells
Mmmmmmm...you're on your way to spanked bottom...Mmmmmm..mmmmmmm..gggrrrr
I agree wholeheartedly! One of the biggest ways you can help charities, non-profits, schools, etc. is to act as a non-gratis PC/network consultant. Not to scare you off, but make sure you *really* want to do this, because it can do more harm than good to kick off a network/Internet program, and then you quit because it's more of a time committment than you were prepared for. Maybe start small, to make sure you want to do this. Kudos to you for looking into this!
Guile..Python..UCBlogo.. (or did you mean electronic flashcards?) Daniel
I do some computer supply to my sons school, and as long as the machine is supplied as a donation, then I can find no problem. Software licensing could be a problem, and I always advise the supplier where the computer will be going, so that software can be removed if desired. David Hart.
If you are in a free country, you can send whatever you want, wherever you want :-) If you have problem to do this, send the hardware to (or ask information to): Associazione Nazionale di Amicizia Italia- Cuba Address: Via Ugo Foscolo, 3 Milano - ITALY Tel: 02/86463483 or Roma -ITALY Vicolo Scavolino, 61 Tel: 06/67993887 :-)
Please attach this to the original Ask Slashdot post. I couldn't see any way to reply to it, so I had to reply to it's child.
I was involved in an interesting project two years ago in Salt Lake City, Utah. Some folks formed an organization with the acronym UBET (I can't remember what it stands for). They started by targeting a single school. This school was an inner city school with huge challenges. The students spoke dozens of native languages (limited English). They were predominantly from broken homes. They lived in a neighborhood where violent crime was something like tripple the national average. The students tested across the board below the 13th percentile nationally.
UBET set up a bunch of programs like volunteer readers, who would go in and read to the children. They were soliciting volunteer tutors, and money for lots of other additional education aids. They were doing a lot. Someone donated a bunch of computers to the school. But they couldn't use them because they didn't have room. They couldn't even set them up in some hallway because the building was so crowded. They were about 80% over occupancy and there was humanity stuffed everywhere.
I was working for a contractor that took an interest in UBET. Somehow somebody decided that one of the most important things these children needed was more space. Well, getting that approved and funded through the local school district, the Utah legislature, and beyond proved to be a fruitless endeavor. So UBET said, "You know, we are not a bunch of worms that have to depend on the 'system' to hand feed us. If the school needs more space, why don't we do it ourselves." My employer said, "We'll do it." We got together with an architect to draw up the plans. We turned to the construction community and requested subcontractors to work for free, or donate materials, or whatever. Where we couldn't cover all the expenses, UBET got people like Ray Noorda (of Novell/Caldera fame) and Larry Miller (owner of Utah Jazz) to donate money to pay for it. The school district permitted the project, and we did it.
Now, when they outlaw fiberglass insulation in 6 years (like they did asbestos), are there going to be huge liability questions? If there is some kind of structural failure (or plumbing failure, or electrical malfunction) is there going to be some major finger pointing. Probably.
Did this scare a lot of potential contributors off? Maybe.
Are you going to spend your whole life so scared of potential liability that you refuse to reach out and do good things?
Do we really think that the GPL protects us from liability if the GPL'ed software we produce causes big problems for someone? Are we asking for a GPL on all volunteer activities?
OK. I'm off my soap box. If you're going to be a good samaritan, I suppose it's worth some effort to get as much protection as you can without impeding your virtuous activities.
>>Know how nylon is made?
I don't operate a nylon manufacturing plant. If I did, I'd damn well better know how!
>>Rubber?
See above!
>>Know how to fly an aircraft? (just the basics)
Yes, I've flown solo, but that is irrelevant. I don't have a plane in my living room or basement.
and I don't have any need to operate one on a daily basis
>>Know what the acronym NASDAQ means?
Ya, I go to the NASD web page and they tell me.
>>Know how to plant & grow a garden?
People have known how for thousands of years. In many parts of the country people do it today. The result - much better tasting produce at much lower cost. However, for those who don't have the space or time to do this, a cucumber costs 25 cents. We are not talking big bucks here. Plus, when I buy a cucumber, I dont get an upgrade that makes my dishwasher stop working.
>>Fix a car? (Beyond fuel, oil & tires)
Yes, and here is where your argument to just "be content to be forever ignorant" really takes a fall. First, lets take the example of what garages call a "minor tuneup". This costs $60. The only thing they do is turn the idle speed screw on the throttle body to adjust the idle speed! Specialized knowledge my ass. It takes me 3 minutes to do this, and that's with getting out a screwdriver (gasp) and the rpm meter (oh the grinding labor).
Now lets consider a brake job. You will all have seen those "specials" where you are led to believe that your brakes will be done for $29. You then are surprised to find you are being charged $229, because you "needed extra parts". Now, If you have no knowledge of how your brakes work, and dont know that cars dont need new calipers and rotors at every brake job, you have no way to know if you are being CHEATED!. (ps. you usually are.)
>>Calculate compound interest?
Yes, and doing so made me realize that if i just paid the standard mortgage payment, i would pay more in interest paymnets on my house then the amount i had originally borrowed. This knowledge made me pay extra on my mortgage. I saved 60 k in interest payments.
>>Build a crystal radio?
Yes, but I don't have a need for one of these.
>>Explain the workings of a switching power supply?
yes, and anyone who designs them and uses them in a specific application will avoid expensive and time-wasting problems if they understand the basics of operation.
>>Diagnose an illness...
Doctors know not to self-diagnose. Just like windows should know not to.
It is not hard to learn how your computer works. We are just talking the basics here, not how to smelt silicon and cut wafers. Taking the time to learn will save you lots of time and money later.
And no, I dont laugh at people who dont know how to do things. I take the time to explain. Anyone who laughs is just an asshole.
Legally, a Waiver will have to be involved. Children bring home a form to parents to sign when they take a 'Field Trip' for school. This is similar territory, the only difference is that physical harm is not an issue (at least, not directly). Certain, right-wing parents will not want their parents exposed to our kind of evil. Others will not care, or want their children exposed to something they might not be able to teach themselves. Regarding taxes and finances, that will have to be left up to the state. Ultimately, they control the money, so they have authority. Talking with your local government representative about your idea to provide expertise at no cost (or at effectively no cost) goes over very well. Politicians like to hear the words 'high-tech', 'education', and 'no money' in the same sentence. As for liability... pornography is one of the leading sellers of published and video materials. But just because kids read books and videos doesn't mean they are exposed to pornography. The trick to keeping kids away from offensive materials is to guide their internet use. 'Fire and forget' monitoring systems used by educational systems simply don't work in a medium like the Internet: teachers and monitors need to take a proactive approach to monitoring children and not treat something that isn't a lecture as a coffee break. Or maybe, kids need to be taught about the Birds and the Bees before they can be expected to go online for themselves.
I agree, but damn -- that education icon blows.
Open Source filtering software... now THAT's a good idea. I honestly believe that only the open source community could do it right anyhow. Heck, we've got all the best programmers!
Someone else brought up the idea of having Content headers, like "Content-rating: XXX" or whatever. This would be a good way of implementing things, at least in theory. The only problem is, how do you enforce this WORLDWIDE? It's easy to say: "okay, all site in the US, UK and Canada (for instance), you have to use this thing properly". But how do you enforce it around the world. There will always be at least one nation that will refuse to do it.
Anyway.. just a few more cents for the jar.
Install one box with the CD and boot disk, NFS mount the CD on said box, (perhaps set it up as a DNS server) and use www.fezbox.com to generate a bootdisk image to install all the other machines. Make on floppy per machine and you can do it all simultaniously. It shouldn't be too hard to get to this stage of the game. Especially if you use redhat 6.0. You can get a RH6.0 CD from www.lsl.com for $0.95, and there's an installation manual on the CD, if you feel the urge to print it out.
Teach kids how to use a wordprocessor to write their english assignment. A 5 year old could probably handle that (with guidance) and it would be very useful.
Show kids how to plot graphs and set up formulas using a spreadsheet and how changing values in a cell changes the graph. Even young kids could handle this and it would be amazingly useful.
By the time they are 8 or nine teaching some of them simple programming should be possible, and giving them math problems they have to solve by writing a program would be a very useful experience for them.
I can think of any number of related tasks which would be of clear educational value and not even require internet connection. And beyond the specifics just the experiece gained from sitting in front of a computer will be of great use it the childs future.
On the off weekend I was home from the university and spounting off about this cool linux computer I has put toghter.. Thinking I was running the next true OS I told my mother who is a elementry school teacher and someone who has been using the net for 3 years that linux was great.. it can even run on a 386. Right when the words left my mouth I knew I was in for it.. she asked well can you install in the elementry school library.. I told her ok.. but she had to learn unix/linux first. She lives in San Diego and the local boarder patrol donated 15 or so P133's to the school.. now education not being run as well as it could be she was told they have NO funds for any software.. not even an OS. After reading about the Mexican schools and French schools dropping MS software I thought we could do the same. Currently Im developing a few programs in QT for KDE so the students can have a the same functionallity in linux as they do in MacOS or Windows* . The biggest problem I can see for the linux install will be adminstartion.. currently we are looking into local LUG's for some free administration. "Another Bright Idea" was to allow the local college teach a Unix admin class labs in on the school systems. As school is still out for summer break many of these projects are still in a planning / brainstorm stage. I hope to have the network rollout over christmas break and have all the support staff in place by then. In the school they are given free cable modem access so Im sure IPmasq will be used.. it should turn out to be a great lab.. something I really would have wanted when I was younger.
Good idea! Many localities already have some form of this in place; e.g., schools, churches and other tax favorable organizations. Tax deductions are nice and gives you a good personal feeling when it goes to a good cause. But the biggest contribution that one can make is not hardware contributions (unless you are some big corporation). What many of these organizations need is expertise in setting up their computers. These jobs range from stringing cables to configuring the network to getting the software installed. In some cases, acting as a mentor to a young geek can be very rewarding. One piece of advice: be helpful, don't be a know it all jerk. Provide advice, but don't preach (e.g., OS wars). Another piece of advice; get the kids involved not matter how much they screw things up.
There IS such a thing as not being able to spell due to a learning disability. Some people are incapable of spelling well not because they were not taught, but because they were not capable of learning. And it has nothing to do with how you were taught to spell or whether you ever used a spell checker. I've been using spell-check ever since I had a computer (and it's been a while) but I still know how to spell. But I do know at least one (very intelligent) person who in school is allowed to use portable spell checkers on all written work because of a disability with spelling. Just FYI, BadlandZ... I'm not a doctor, psychiatrist, or anything like that, but think if this could be the situation and maybe consult your doctor about this possibility. Not sure what can be done about it, but at least you might feel better knowing what's going on. Sorry for the Off-Topicness of this, but I didn't see any e-mail address for BadlandZ and thought this was worth saying.
Thanks...Our problem here in the u.s. is the embargo. I just wasn't sure how it applied in this case. Many cyberphobes in Washington, ya know...
Suggest you go to http://main.org and poke around...
You may not have thought about who is going to maintain these PC's or the billions of questions that are going to happen. I don't want to throw a wet towel on your idea, but I can tell you from my own experiences you need to consider this. Otherwise, you will be taking so many calls you won't get a chance to see you daughter at all.
waiting on my slashdot password to be mailed...
I have a proof somewhere that shows 2 + 2 = 5 for very large values of 2.
thanks, that was the best laugh I've had all day.
I work for the Oakland Technology Exchange. We recycle old computers and put them in class rooms. The way we resolve the problem with access and access control is through working with the local school district. All we provide is nice clean computer with software. Access control are up to the school district. I do help the district with their access control system. We decided to get this web filtering theng. It comes in the form of a proxy server. Bess proxy server. It filters all "bad sites." It works really well also with setting up a little firewall to block all web access except for that one proxy server. that way lil kiddies can't go anywhere if they disable the proxy setting on the web browser. =) I don't believe in censorship but for legal purposes we have to comply with district policy. bess retriever can be found at http://www.bess.net
Joke? I don't think I get it.. could someone explain this (pls be patient, I only have a U.S. college education)
perhaps the problem lies more in location than in politics.
2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2! come on, you should have learned this in kindergarten... ;)
Yeah, like snuff films! People have a right to produce, distribute and watch snuff films! And anybody who prevents them is evil! Yeah! 'Cause all censorship is bad, 'cause um, I don't know but I'm sure some wise-ass here can say why. But I know that it's ALWAYS wrong to censor. Yeah, nobody was never influenced by what they read. Nazi propaganda never converted anyone over. Yeah it was genetics or memes or something geek-cool idea like that. ANARCHY ROCKS DUDES!
The point to to expose kids to the benefits of a technology they will be involved in every day of their lives. Had your parents exposed you to say something like rebuilding car engines or something (just pickin a non-computer related topic) when you were young, you'd be damned good at it (most likely) by the age when you'd be required to use those skills for money. By exposing kids now to the benefical portions of the web and such, many of them will look more into how it works.. a child's mind is very curious. Soon they will (ok maybe not all but a fair amount) want to make their own pages.. learn java.. and behold you have a 13 yr old who could very well be working for a company making lots of money. This knowledge they learned and became familar with will take their curiousity to new levels that will very much so benefit them in the future. The best example I can think of off hand would be keeping books away from one child when they are young, but providing another with lots of reading material. 10 years down the road, which child will be more able to read, use bigger words, and all that? The one who was exposed to the books when they were young. In many ways I wish my parents would have found a way to nurture my interests in the C64 my grandfather had when I was age 4. And as for the other questions stated. To help with the finacial part of your goal, you might be able to take advantage of freeride.com in some sort of way. Also write your state represenative asking for information about a Grant you could possiblly obtain to help you reach your goal. I'm sure you'd be able to obtain atleast a small grant to help with the finacial sections. As for the other liabilities, make up "contracts" the childern's parents must sign for the child to get (well I couldn't think of anything else) a user ID and password that would allow them access to the PC's. You could also use web monitoring software to keep the childern out of sites deemed inappropriate. Best of luck to you on your goals, and may you succeed. Ron Rossman rjr162@Psu.edu
>umm. yes i'm sure snuff films are available at >the local blockbuster.. oh wait, blockbuster >doesnt carry the faces/traces of death series... Whoa buddy, I think the previous poster has some valid points. For one, the movies at Blockbuster aren't snuff films, snuff films are where someone is actually killed just for the film. And I don't mean public execution, I mean someone kidnapped, raped and then shot some sicko can get off on it. Oh yeah, Blockbuster carries that, right behind the enormous kiddie porn section. >and Nazi propaganda never converted anyone? can >you honestly believe that people would read "the >jews are the cause of all evil" and believe it? >well.. some ignorant idiots maybe.. How does anyone form an opinion? I bet you like to believe that you "rationally" form your opinions from the "facts". Hate to break the news to you fellow, but that's what those who believed the Nazi's thought they did too. They weren't just "ignorant idiots", in fact many of Germany's most educated and intelligent (i.e. Nobel prize winners) people believed the Nazi's. Remember the book that came out not too long ago that claimed that Blacks score lower on IQ tests because of genetics? They even "proved" this by showing statistics that for every ancestor that was white the black childrens' IQ increased by a couple of points. This came from two Harvard professors and many, many educated, intelligent Americans believe them. Nazi propaganda was filled with the same sort of "facts". You have to ask yourself, what would it take to convince YOU the Nazi's were right? I know that sounds bizzare, but think about it. Would it take some study or series of studies to prove it? Articles published on Slashdot? More than likely if you BELIEVE in the accuracy of the source of information then you will believe ANYTHING that they tell you. > as far as I know, or read, most people chose to >follow or >allow nazi'ism for the same reason a group of >people will do nothing when they see someone >being raped/beat up/injured.. it's group >behavior, and the lack of decision making that >happens when people are put into situations that >they rather avoid.. read some sociology books >sometime.. Well I had to read a few books on sociology for my Phd in Sociology. First off I suggest you read, "The Myth of the Madding Crowd" Dr. Clark McPhail (my chairman for my PhD), since your obviously seriously misinformed about group behavior (I guess you slept through your sociology classes). Secondly, it's obvious that you heard about, but don't really know anything about, Kitty Genovese, the woman who was murdered even though she was heard by dozens of people crying for help. It wasn't "group behavior" that the police weren't called, the people in the neighborhood each mistakenly thought that someone else had already have called the police since she was running through the area and when she got too far for them to hear her they thought the situation had been resolved. Bottom line is you don't make your decisions or form opinions in a vacuum. No matter how much you might think your an independent thinker your still a product of your time, of your biography and under the influence of the hundreds of different sources of information that surround you. If everyone you talk to and everything you read said that Jews were evil, I bet you you'll find yourself starting to wonder. And if you ran across a Jew in this sort of situation, who would naturally be very defensive, you'll probably form the opinion, "Yeah, he did act real suspicious." Jumping to that conclusion because of what psychologists call "priming". By exposing an individual to only certain cues you can influence their interpretations of their environment. For instance, there are a number of social psychological experiments that had people watch a film which was biased against "Waldorians" (an imaginary nation that the researcher made up so they could avoid any prejudices the people might already have about real groups of people). They were then asked to read a story several days later and then give their own interpretation of that story. The story involved a crime and had "Waldorians" as well as other ethnic groups in it and was purposely vague about who was involved with the crime. The study showed that people would give interpretations of the story that are more likely to follow the biases of the film than they would if they had not watched the film. These same people were then asked if the film had any influence in their interpretation of the story. Of course they completely denied that it did. >is it better to have a free state, with no >government/activist group telling you what you >should/shouldn't do, and have the occassional >extremists that go out of their way to shock >others, or would you rather be in the middle, >safe from even your own shadow? What in the world makes you think that there would only be "the occassional extremist"? How do you know that the nation wouldn't degenerate into total chaos? How do you know things wouldn't end up like the book, "The Lord of the Flies"? Read it sometime. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your ideology bozo.
it's amazing how many people actually use the phrase "2 cents" .... talk about talking about 2 cents ... or something ....
What wold be real nice, is some sort of encyclopedia for linux. Why the hell isnt there a free, fully accessible web encyclopedia up yet!?
Which I take to mean: How can I go out into my community and do a Good Thing w/o being criticized / attacked / sued by the forces of ignorance and stupidity?
A really important question. Unfortunately the answer is that you can't.
If your actions are seen as challenging the "status quo" then there *will* be people threatened by that.
It's a decision that we all must make: Do I belive in people enough to go out into "my" community and take a stand or do I stay on my own little "island" and watch out only for myself ?
Just my 02
kosmo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the number one Oxymoron: Microsoft Works
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heck, my grandmother can crash a windows machine faster than you.
It's a mistake. Where ever you see pink, its supposed to be transparent.
Take a look at Not the MISD Page for a rebuttal. The local administrators DON'T want your "help", because they don't understand the technology, and are afraid of computer saavy parents. What's worse ... the people in charge of the hardware are generally (putting this gently) UNEMPLOYABLE in the "Real World". They especially don't appreciate your presence. Take a hint and stay away, or do your own thing at the local community center.
I'm not sure this is still possible, but I grew up with a computer and I can tell you I'm much farther ahead in use, programming and maintenance of computers than my peers. I can rattle off powers of 2 up to ridiculous numbers. I can convert hexadecimal in my head (slowly). I used a Commodore 64. I learned how it worked. I liked it. Most people my age might get on AOL and learn how to get in a chat room, but they don't like computers for what they are, only for their possible uses. This doesn't sound bad until I say that you should do (as a career) what you love. If everyone did this, there would be even fewer programmers than there are. As it is, people who don't love to program computers are stuck with it, and the result is Windows and friends. Features are there because their bosses told them to put them in, not because they're cool. Code is bloated. People are underpaid. View this in contrast to free operating systems developed mostly on free time. They're fast, stable, and fun for me. Features are there because they're wanted by the users, not the bosses. Programs get better because of natural progression, not [stressful] competition. The point is, if we want our children to love computers like we (some of us) do, whether we want that just to share the joy or to perpetuate good programming, they must learn to like them early. ------ Solution: get them a commodore 64. This way they learn from the ground up. They learn that there are other types of computers than Wintel, some better, and that there are other programs besides those you buy and those you download: there are some you can write. They learn powers of 2. They learn to hate BASIC. They learn. And if they get any porno, it'll be 160x200 at 4 colors :) jared jennings jjennings at mtlinc.net
Whats wrong with Encyclopedia.com?
should not be a factor here. If you donate a vehicle to a charity, and someone driving it decides to go run over pedestrians then you're not responsible. I don't see how you can be concerned about liability for others' actions after you have installed and configured a computer.
I think you've come up with a good idea though.
Yes, I agree it was sick. But I think you missed the point of it. His point was that people are more apt to blame outside influences for the behaviour of their children than to look at themselves to see what they may be doing wrong.
Ok, Whatever... This is SO way off topic, but I just wanted to extend my gratitude to Cliff - He is the only reason I visit Slashdot. He picks the right questions that pertain to a large portion of us. Keep it up cliff.... Regards K.
Serious organization with supporters such as Compaq and Cisco. Diatribe, this is the place to start.
What's wrong with mormonism? In these parts (switzerland) they're friendly, no more nuts than the other Christians, and they encourage a bit of thinking for yourself too (in a somewhat meditational way). Once they were even bright enough to catch on to multiple wives being a good thing but somehow they lost track of that gem :-)
Check out UCB logo at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/ucblogo/ Trust me, there's a lot more educational value in it than you think (ask all the current 20 year olds what they used in grade school) and, in my opinion, has more educational value than dummy down software like Encarta. But if you don't believe me, ask someone who has done extensive research in education (also the writer of this software). Mail Brian and tell him that you're interested in using logo for educational purposes and he'll gladly give you some advice.
Doesn't really matter that they're dodging bullets in school, or that by the age of 10 most of them have been exposed in one way or another to drugs. Doesn't matter that a lot of them go home to an empty house because both mommy and daddy have to work if they want to pay the rent and keep eating. Doesn't matter that most of them will tell you that school was a living hell from which there was no escape. But by god we'll protect them from that nasty, evil internet.
i have to agree w/ the above, its better to start them on playing the piano or basic basic math at such a young age. and how would you show a kid how to build a car engine anyway?
... why isn't there a little tray at the bottom of the board to hold the chalk & erasers?
Is there a Linux dial-in/web browser solution for ancient relics such as x286's? There are a lot of these things floating around in the back rooms of some places- especially schools. I don't know if there is a website for it, but I found a program about a year ago called "Arachne" which is a DOS-based webbrowser/email proggy. It's graphical and quite functional, aside from things such as Shockwave, RealPlayer, and such similar stuff which is sometimes more annoyance than use anyway. The "Arache.Zip" file I have of it fits on a floppy. It's freeware for non-commercial use, BTW. The README file contains the following: * Official minimal configuration is PC with 80386 or higher CPU and 512 KB SVGA card, but Arachne will partly work even on any 80x86 with EGA or VGA. Probably might as well go to Linux anyway, since as far as I've been able to tell, you DO need some sort of HDD to use this. (The unzipped file collection is over 1.44 Mb, and some of the older computers it might work on only have 720K floppies still.)
There were proposals to have children watch TV all day in order to learn the three R's instead of listening to a live teacher. Thank god that was shot down. Heavy computer use by young children is idiotic. Your children are going to be zombies whose level of computer literacy extends to signing on to chat rooms and searching for ways to get around netnanny.
Perhaps it's in reference to "1984".
(Two plus two is five! *Zzzzt!*)
Three years back in worked on the Net day in wiring a local school. This school happens to be the second largest one in Northern California. Amazingly enough, enough people were there that all I had to do was hook up one ethernet outlet in 15 minutes. The team on people I was in had 4 people and we had 3 outlets. We were fighting over who gets to do it!
My preschool daycare center had a PET, where I wrote my first basic program. My parents bought a TI/99 4A when I was in first grade, and I started word processing on an Osborne I in third grade. Now, I have the flexibility that I can walk into just about any tech company in nearly any industrialized country and get a job. I do not think the two are uncorrelated. Teaching kids about computers is one of the most important things you can do to help them. Soup kitchens are important, but no matter how good they are, they can only maintain the status quo. Education has the potential to change lives.
I'm going to side track your main point a little as I think this still relates. I have always been quite worried whenever I see people talk about educating our kids using computers. Not that there isn't any pedagogical value to it but that whenever it is used in schools with children it is almost always misused. I can't get into too much detail here but you should read this article which I find to be a very thoughtful paper about the uses of computers in education. It was written by one of the creators of UCB logo who has done some quite extensive work in this area. The point I'm trying to make is that there has been so much hype recently with computer XXX in general that we're often quick to jump the gun and assume that anything the slightest bit related the computers is always a good thing. Keep in mind that computers are not teachers and we should never try to substitute human beings for them. They're just tools and I strongly encourage people to spend money on books and teachers before blowing it all away on "high tech" gadgets and network equipment. There is some educational value in computers but it has nothing to do with the way most people think they do. Again, read the article and you'll see what I mean. There are also many other papers you can read at http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/papers.ht ml
Yes, but having computers available within an eductaional enviornment could be invaluble. Ideally, a computer would be a tool that a parent and child could use together to teach the child about both computers and other subjects. In the worst case, a computer is potentially a better baby sitter than a TV... BTW, I *don't* think that kids need to have parents hovering over them every second. Giving children time to eg. experement with computers by themselves (even if not online) is a good thing, too, IMO.
Like all attempts to child-proof the world, child-proofing the net is a dangerous thing to attempt. Frankly, I'm far more afraid that my niece and nephew will grow up in a totalitarian theocracy, than I am of the trauma that they'll supposedly suffer if they stumble across a Nazi rant or a photo of a naked woman. The supposed power of the traditional media to warp minds, depends in great measure on the essentially one-way nature of Television, Movies, and Newspapers. On the net, rebuttals are easily available, and people with truly evil motives tend to sod off when they get called on it in the newsgroups. I'm not afraid of what the net will do to the children I love. I'm afraid of what the people who are afraid of the net will do to their liberty, in the name of "protecting" them. -jcr
This is an Australian Initiative to get 2nd hand PC's to persons otherwise unable to afford a computer. The systems are being set up with Linux. check out http://www.computerbank.org.au regards David Buddrige
If you aren't one of us, then go live among your own tribe. This is not your home. Please go back to your home and leave us in peace. We have our own culture here, a good culture, and you don't fit in. You are not welcome here.
There is no way to stop someone from suing you. You can make sure that it will be thrown out of court quickly.
I can think of two major reason why you are relatively safe from legal liability:
The first is being somewhat safe, and requring those who get the installation to take all legal responsibility for how the computers are used.
The second is hiding behind the fact that you are a volunteer. At least up north here, successfully sueing a volunteer who was not grossly negligent in their actions is quite difficult. Once you touch $$$ for the service, the bar goes up.
I find my first proposal rather icky, but I'm having difficulty finding references to the second that apply here. The best I found was Smith v the Canadian Sport Parachuting Association, in which the suit was dismissed, in part because the CSPA was a volunteer organisation. The plantiff became a parapalegic because of inadequit parashute training from a company that was a member school. [Smith vs. Horizon Sports Ltd. (1981) 19 C.C.L.T. 89]
AFNI
While there are some points to be made here, the "wasn't there just a study that said..." mode of reasoning suffers from its typical defects here.
In particular, since we're speaking of "logic" skills, there is rarely any effort made to relate the premises to the conclusions. While some parents do rely on "electronic babysitters", there are also parents who don't, but who simply fail to pay attention to their kids. There are those who DO monitor their children's activities with TV, computers, books, friends, games, and such, but don't provide guidance which actually helps their children develop.
The question of responsible parenting is not directly connected with the question of providing children access to learning tools. Computers being a tool, and the 'net being a medium, it makes no more sense to regulate them directly to solve the problems of (arguable) cases of "abuse" than it does to institute a Federal Food Rationing plan to address the national health problem of obesity. (Irrelevant tangential diatribe about drug regulation omitted as offtopic).
That said, there is a need for effort directed towards improving parenting skills. Since we have made a cultural decision not to require licensing or certification to become a parent (while we DO require it before allowing people to drive cars), there seems cause to at least take the positive action of offering help and training.
And schools are an institution which does just this: they take over some of the responsibility of child-raising and education from the parents and put it in the hands of professionals. If we as parents feel they are taking TOO much of our responsibility or our privilege, or that they're inculating our children with the wrong values (whether those be sheepish subservience or satanic liberalism),maybe there's a niche for an institution which teaches parents how to do an effective job of child-rearing according to whatever value-system they feel is most appropriate.
As for the liability in providing inexpensive computers to schools, it seems the most reasonable tack would be to PROVIDE them (along with technical assistance in getting them working), but let the school decide what's an appropriate use, thus shifting liability onto someone who's experienced in handling it.
...to trick the filter. Some web programmers have released some of these on the 'Net. Though, I could be wrong since all the current crop of filters only do a decent job. BTW, I wouldn't be surprised that the Anti-semetic site was targeting children (the "World Church of the Creator" group has a page "made for kids.")
What the hell is a four year old going to do with her own internet connection? Spend your time more usefully at the local soup kitchen.
--
Young children are easily influenced. We need to protect them from Windows95.
Jason Burke has started a Linux Mentors program to teach kids the wonders of Linux and all that. He wrote up a piece that's on Linux.com in the LUGs section. The important thing is to just keep trying. Talk to businesses and stuff, somewhere there's people eager to get rid of some 486s or low Pentiums that have collected dust in their storeroom.
First of all, I was just quoting someone else who wrote something short, concise and forceful enough to be quotable.
Second, never did I say that everyone should know how their computers work.
The sentiment I think the quote I gave transmits, when placed in its proper context (read the message I replied to for that) is what I know many people who owned as kids during the 80s share-- that nowadays kids have a much smaller chance of learning the workings of the machine, than some of the computers in the 80s provided (think computers like the C64/C128, Apple ][, Tandy Color Computer, and so on).
---
Geeks Into the Streets is a Baltimore area ad-hoc group that works to bring 'net access to poor children. Jeff Covey, who started the whole thing, maintains Andover's Linux.DaveCentral site. Our good friend Joe "the mad Russian" Valadorsky of Amnet Computer contributed a LOT of equipment and expertise, and a whole LOT of others have chipped in with parts, labor, advice, and encouragement.
All of this was an outgrowth of the UMBC LUG that meets at University of Maryland Baltimore County.
Any LUG could do this. This just happens to be an excellent, very helpful and public-minded bunch. If you want to learn more about how your LUG could do something similar, please contact either me or Jeff. We're both *more than happy* to help other people get involved in community "geek outreach projects" by starting their own ad-hoc groups.
Just do it in a poor neighborhood where the parents don't have money for a lawyer... Brilliant!
There is a charity, exactly as you describe, operating in Cleveland near Case Western Reserve University. Unfortunately, I do not recall the name at the moment, but I highly suggest you investigate there. They take old computers (IBMs and such, pre 486 mostly) and repair them. These computers then are given to schools (I think).
In other words, I think the waiver is a great idea. :)
I just want to say I agree, so you don't feel alone in this. There are plenty of people that think children should be protected, but in this circle it's not exactly the cool thing to say.
Still, though, if you're talking about publicly available computers, vs. those that the parents have control of in their homes, who is going to decide whether to install the protective software?
Oh, here's another thought I've been toying with. Several parents I know take the opinion that kid should be kept away from computers for the most part until they are older. When they are older, they can catch up; it's not like they will be permanently behind the times. I got a grasp of the Internet pretty quickly after being exposed to it for the first time a very few years ago.
But thier experiance with systems on systems with less processing power also goes to my overall point. Your arguing the details are wrong, I'll give you that and say your right.
But, would it not then be better to start programming on something of lesser power first so you more clearly see the diffrences? Or, maybe learning about logic flow before even starting to code?
Programming and computing aside, the issue in question is, will giving children more tools help them learn? OR, will giving children more tools just make the people responsable for educating the children lazier?
My point in general is that a 4 year old at a computer isn't a good thing in itself. With good guidance, they can learn a lot. With poor guidance, they will just have another "crutch" to keep them from learning some skills they should know on thier own.
So, remove the tool, and re-analyze the situation. Find how to make things work better in general, THEN, add aproprate tools. Giving homeless people a nailgun and a truckload of lumber will not provide them homes, and a nailgun is dangerous in untrained hands.... Despite the fact it is a very usefull tool.
Give me a fish, I will eat today. Teach me to fish, I will eat long after you leave.
This sounds like a job for
http://www.troubleshooters.com
Troubleshooting follows a general
problem solving process, which makes any
intractible problem look like debugging
a program. There is always a place to
start. You never have to feel overwhelmed.
And basically you know that there are a
million other troubleshooters out there who
are on your side all the way.
If you are looking for more specific
references on wiring computers for kids and
schools,
there is a new initiative directed at
getting better software into schools
called.
http://www.openclassroom.com
This is really a worthwhile ambition.
Good luck! (and remember, the computer
is your friend...)
Personally, I would have the parents sign a waiver in to let the kids use the computers, saying that I'm not responsible for what their kids get into... just my $0.02
No, give them Mormonism. Give them Islam. Give them Hinduism. Give them all of them. After that, there is probably no need to give them Atheism, it will come all by it self...
608-7782-3006
james@dqc.org
C/O Superior Systems
611 Main St.
LaCrosse, WI 54601
I think there is something else going on there. The folks who learned to program on punchcards (or even in batch mode with a "real" editor) by and large have a few diffrences from people who learned to program directly in an editor:
So do they write tighter code because they scetched it out in pencil n' paper first, or because they learned on a machine with a 5Mhz clock? Does it take them less time to debug because they flowcharted, or because they have had two decades experiance in hunting bugs?
Personally I'm in the intermediate range. I started programming at the head end of the '80s. I never did punchcards, and avoided batch untill collage (in '89 or so). I don't pencil schetch out code (except in Pascal class over 15 years ago). I do whiteboard out my data structures. I have imense respect for people more skilled at it then I, and I beleve they tend to be older then I am. I think I'm at least as good as my Dad was when he tought me, but he has gotten 18 years better at it, still leaving me a lot of room to catch up. Some folks who are younger them me just plain have more natural talent at it, and are also better then me.
However the thing I won't claim is that pencil programming will make you better, or that whiteboarding data structures will. Those help some people, and not others. If you havn't tryed it, give it a shot, maybe it will work for you. also try "writing one to throw away" (preferably in a language simmilar to, but not the same as the one you need to use of the actual implmentaiton, to avoid the chance of actually using the throw away). Find something that works good fir you, and every few years try something else for a project or two (havn't used hungarian notation? give it a shot -- it didn't help me, but maybe it'll give you an edge).
2+2=5 was one of the precepts used in the interrogation (reeducation, brainwashing, whatever you'd rather call it) of Winston in 1984. Not the main criteria, but one of them.
"Don't do it to me, do it to Julia!"There are a few high school English classes that cover 1984. There are a million or so more that don't. Pity, because it's a more useful text for your average public school student than much of what gets covered there.
distributed.net etc. MAY be a good idea if the computer is already in use, but running them solely to participate in such a venture is silly. Remember the amount of fossil fuel wasted on powering the redundant Seti@Home computations? Well, it wasn't really wasted because the machines would have been powered on anyway, but what you're talking about is a true waste.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
You're worried about liability? Then say to all parents who would consider this scheme: "I reccomend that you supervise your child's internet usage."
This has two positive effects - firstly it allows the parents to make sure their kids don't look up anything they don't want them to (and that doesn't mean Slashdot surely?) and secondly it can help young children make sense of what they see. The Internet is an adult medium in many ways, and all too often information is put there for people who browse through web sites and pick up the salient information points. Kids can't do this! They need time to learn and to take things in so having parents there to explain what is happenening is always good.
If the parents are responsible then they won't stop their children from visiting sites that are informative and educational, and they will use the Internet as the tool it can be.
it also encourages them to see the positive sids of it too! if the parents sit with their kids and go through sites together they end up seeing lots of stuff that may wel convince them that it isn't fll of porn and bomb-making instructions like some poor fools still believe.
Supervision - it takes away the responsibilty from you and givews power to them.
Muhahahaha...children using computers.
Don't you see the opportunity? Don't you see the superb opportunity to warp and twist their fragile little minds to follow our evil cult of communist (ack!) free software loving (argh!) establishment-shunning (ahhh!) philosophy of world domination through strategic placement of penguins all over the globe!!!!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA....oh sorry.
We could get them all on the net by age 4!!! That way, they could be exposed to all the evil nastiness that flows through the veins of all linux users like a black vomitous fluid, intoxicating them...inebriating them...rendering them unable to use proprietary software!!!!
Don't you understand??? We ARE the people our parents warned us about!!!!
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
The people at Future Focus (http://www.futurefocus.org/) should be able to answer many questions...
If you REALLY want to help, you should try training some of the faculty to take advantage of the hardware. One of the best examples of why this is needed is my high school. It had several hundred PCs (one per classroom, plus a few labs) -- many of which were fairly up to date (one of the labs had PIIs, and they might have been upgraded since I graduated in '98).
For the most part, they were just used as overglorified word processors.
There were two exceptions to this: the joke we called our CS department, and one lone math classroom. I won't even start on the CS department. And out of the two years I was in that math classroom, we only used the computers about ten times. Even with the hideous software on those things, we still had the potential to use the computers for ALL the lessons both years (this leads to a MUCH deeper understanding of the topic since you don't get the student caught up in all the grunt work -- I was fortuante enough to take a section of diffeq using Mathematica last semester at UIUC, and I felt like I actually understood the concepts instead of just plugging numbers into equations and solving).
Outside of that, I didn't get a single opportunity to use the classroom PCs. Off the top of my head, I can think of several areas that they would have been beneficial: research for my history and government classes (we even had decent bandwidth, but it was completely unused!), aid visualization of bonds in chemistry, ability to tweak parameters to see what hapens to economic graphs, find other works by the same author in my literature class, scan/sequence sheet music in orchestra to get a feel of what it's supposed to sound like, etc., etc., etc.
Why wasn't I offered those opportunities? The teachers and administration had no idea that half of that could be done, and they had no idea how to actually do any of it.
So I guess the biggest thing to keep in consideration is that the hardware's useless somebody trains the faculty how to use it.
That being said, I still think computers have a place in the classroom (I've installed a number of them myself), as long as they are not seen as a replacement for human interactions with a teacher (or parent). In older classrooms, where kids can use them in problem solving exercises, review and practice on other traditional subjects, or as a reference (like a Very Big Encyclopedia or instant reference library), they can become a valuable tool. In fact, when you get up into the higher elementary and middleschool grades, I think it is critical that kids learn how to use the Internet.
Suffice it to say, our American tradition of trying to solve educational problems by throwing more money and technology at it is once again comming up short when the facts come in. There is nothing that can take the place of the older generation teaching the younger.
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Really, you and I are the technology experts, not the educational ones. We should list the available technologies (filtering, internet connections, hardware, networks, etc.) and the pros and cons or each (including details like cost, or the flaws of filtering software), and then let the administration figure out its policy. We have to be honest though, and not fudge the facts with our own prejudices. Then, they are the one's responsible for getting parental permission, and dealing with problems when they come up. Believe me, they've been dealing with these issues for years!! (Whoever said the Internet was the first controversy to hit our school systems???)
Tell them what can and cannot be done. Tell them your recommendation. Let them make policy. If you can live with their policy, then do your work.
Your Servant, B. Baggins
It was mentioned in the original "Ask Slashdot" question how to start a non-profit. I am not a lawyer, however I have recently incorporated my own non-profit in the state of Nevada. It is relatively easy and relatively inexpensive(I think I paid the Secretary of State $45 for everything). Now this does not get you 501(c)(3) non-profit status, but it is the first step. You can check out the State of Nevada's Secretary of State page at: this URL.
Stuart Eichert
U. of PENN student/FreeBSD hacker
Stuart Eichert
Some time ago, a couple of years ago I think, we decided that the inordinate amount of 486s we had lying around, along with all the old bits and pieces that still worked, should be donated to charity. So I called up a bunch of places, searched the Web, etc. Once I got in touch with someone, it went like this:
Me: Hi, I have a friggin metric ton of computer gear I want to donate to your school.
Them: Great! We're looking for Pentiums, minimal, and stuff that can run Windows 95 or this NT thing I heard about.
Me: Uh...
Them: No Pentiums, no dice.
I tried for almost 4 months to donate stuff. No one wanted any of it. They only wanted cutting edge hardware. I even got hung up on once for trying to say that these machines were still usable for tasks other than surfing the web (thinking to myself, Linux, of course).
I even talked to inner-city types, people who are trying to bring inner-city kids more up-to-speed on technology. Right now, these places are still looking for donations, and still won't accept anything less than PII's or G3 Macs. I tried to donate my time - no, too much paperwork, and I can't be trusted around the kids since I am just some guy and not, you know, accreditted. And we all know that these computer guys are pervs.
I was totally dejected. Next week we will be chucking that stuff; we've got the truck and everything ready to go. Too bad, there was some good Linux hardware in there that they could have used. Anyone want it?
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
There are a precious few schools in the united states that actually know what they're doing.
Off the top of my head would be Ingraham Highschool in Seattle WA, the "technology magnet" school in St. Paul MN (forget the name), most of the Cedar UT schools (shockingly, but they have a surprisingly adept IT staff), Glouchester VA Central Schools, and Spokane WA school district.
But I can't stress enough, Ingraham is the diamond in the manure where Seattle schools are concerned, as is the technology magnet to the rest of St. Paul.
Frankly, I'm surprised people trust their children with the people who run most public schools. I wouldn't, and don't intend to.
In my experience, a very small number of the people employed by public schools are underpaid, hard working, thoughtful individuals who have real talent. The rest are making out like bandits with their $26k/yr for the effort and expertise they bring to the job.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
Vision
All students will have access to the most technologically advanced education possible to ensure that they will have the skills needed to compete in the workforce of tomorrow.
Mission
The mission of TECH CORPS is three-fold:
- to recruit, place, and support volunteers from the technology community who advise and assist schools in the introduction and integration of new technologies;
- to bring additional technology resources to schools through local and national projects;
- to build partnerships in support of educational technology among educators, businesses, and community members at the local, state, and national levels.
Mode of OperationTECH CORPS is a national non-profit organization, funded through corporate contributions, and implemented through state chapters. A national staff oversees TECH CORPS' mission and agenda, assists with the formation and maintenance of effective state chapters, provides national media focus, and ensures quality at all levels. The broader organization is based on a bottom-up philosophy and draws on the expertise and enthusiasm of technology-literate members of the local community.
I went to a workshop on this at a Cisco conference in Houston a couple of weeks ago. Basically, these people organize volunteers to go into schools and do wiring, network setup, consulting, what have you. Basically anything in the technology realm. They started because there are a lot of people like you - people who have skills and want to help out schools who most of the time just need some advice and a little bit of time. The hardest part is getting organized, which is where TechCorps comes in. They even have a state chapter in Utah.
My company is looking into working with their Nebraska chapter, so I might have more info about it in the future. Check out their web page to see if your state is involved and give them a call. I'm sure your local school would appreciate it!
You can also contact your local service organizations like the Rotary, 4H, etc. These organizations already have the infrastructure set up, they already have credibility, and they already know what to do. Focus on what YOU can do best (installing the computers) and let THEM focus on what they can do best (soliciting donations, contacting groups that need the help, and all the legal/tax mumbo jumbo).
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
I also have been thinking about this for a while. I myself have 4 foster kids. They are just getting started using Computers. Teaching them has given me food for lots of thought... What do they need to know, and how do I present it to them without all of the baggage that I had to go through to learn what I have? Their schools use of the computer is just too limited. I mean that not every kid really needs to know computers from the guts out, but they should know more than just how to use one. Here are a few things that I have been working through with my children... Some of this stuff will end up as short volunteer lectures at my local schools.
Computer culture is something that is priceless. With the right "manners" a child will grow to use a computer for anything they want without fear. If they learn to share early, maybe they will help others the same way that I have. (It is also interesting that the kids that I went to school with that shared knowedge, and code and games! I still talk to and learn from.) This sort of thing is needed when kids start learning. They are learning all social aspects of everything else, why not the use of computers? My own children seem pretty receptive. Simple ethical issues can lead to lengthly productive discussions. The same sort of discussions that arise from such questions like: "I found some chalk at the school, is it ok to keep it?" Computer culture is learned by peer example at the higher education levels, but not really at the lower ones, at least not in the schools in my area.
What is the internet? Their answers to this really blew me away. They said that it was just like TV only you get to pick what you see. People who knew the internet before the invention of the WWW are very different from those who joined in after the fact. All aspects of the internet should be introduced along with the appropriate culture. The sharing culture of the internet is slowly being eroded away. There are also many things surrounding fact vs opinion that are very confusing to young people. They really can't see the difference between a hack and a legit web site. Does a site contain factual information? Is a particular opinion popular? With who? What does that mean to me, and should I go along....
Low level computer understanding. My kids ask me things like: Why does the computer have to start up? (after having been turned off..) Why can't I just type what I want and have it go find it? Where do things go when the computer is off? Why are some peoples computers different? Why does the computer crash when it is supposed to do exactly what it is told? These sort of things are easy to ignore at first, but if you ask young kids any of these, their answers will surprise you.
Maybe this is all simple stuff, (to us it should be) but to the young it matters. More than our educational system is ready to prepare them for.
Blogging because I can...
There's a nationally-sponsored event that's been going for about three years called NetDay in which you can volunteer to help wire your community schools either with a donation of time, supplies, or money. Check it out.
--j
You couldn't tell a cult from a hole in the ground.
Well, I guess I should pipe up here, as I was involved in one of the original pilot projects that later became basis for the original learning link program. I helped implement one the first permament high school internet connections - one of the first fifteen in the world. (Remember gopher and WAIS?) Before that I created some the first computer labs in general curricula: Desktop publishing, CAD, PSL (Personal Science Labortory), and word processing (my first XEINX lab). We won't even go into what I did before that, but it seems that only yesterday I was working with the oregon trail, print shop, mockingbird speech synthsis program, and of course appleworks and BASIC.
I could go on for hours on what we learned, how it worked, who we had to brown-nose with, etc. but there only two things I learned that I hold above the rest:
These projects take TIME more than anything else. From installation, to training, to maitenance, to support. You cannot just throw a computer in a room and expect it to be used. Even today, the learning and usage curve is steep. And of course technology changes, so your job is never-ending. I was brought in to do what the administrators could not: teach people about computers.
The second thing I only learned in retrospect. I was so blinded by the work that I missed it beforehand, has most others continue to miss it today. Computers are only TOOLS: they are only as good as what you use them for. Computers cannot teach you everything, and today I see that they are being overused. They are there to AUGMENT education, not REPLACE it.
I could tell hair raising stories about my experiences about those early days, dealing with the state higher ed school board, the governor's office, even the NSF and PBS. Not only did we have to make things work, we had to PROVE that everything we did indeed work. I need not point out the repercussions that these pilot programs had.
By the way I should tell you that I am only 23 now, just out of college - so you can imagine my age back then. I was very lucky, and just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
I have not seen much action from them, mostly words and noise. I know about NETDAY and stuff like that, but they are half-hearted efforts. I signed up with them when they first formed, and have heard almost nothing since.
Private industry is good too, but what you need the most is people's TIME. I can't stress that enough.
There is a chartered and operational TECH CORPS chapter in Salt Lake; contact Ginny Gale[ggale@media.utah.edu] or Dory Jensen[djensen@techcorps.org], national Director of State Organization.
TECH CORPS a national non-profit organization, funded through corporate contributions, and implemented through state chapters. Their purpose is to marshal the talents of volunteer IT professionals to benefit public schools. They will have some real answers to your questions earned through experience in dealing with school districts nationwide and coordinating volunteer systems implementation/integration projects. Visit techcorps.org for more information.
Much of what I think is possible with TECH CORPS remains to be seen in many regions. Note, with not from TECH CORPS. As I understand it, regional members need to find the applications. Then they submit a proposal and get the equipment, money, counsel, and support from volunteer executives (the slick, winning, exponent types).
;) How to deal with objections to what some will see as an open media channel. How to re-focus the bureaucrat who will not see beyond liabilities toward the necessity of perpetuating technology savvy etc. These are not trivial problems. They've probably done the legwork . . . lawyers and all.
An advocacy organization such as this may be just what he/she is looking for with practical benefits dealing exactly with those questions he/she hinted at such as understanding the legal framework of philanthropy and public schools.
My advice to Paranoid Diatribe is to take what is offered expressly for someone with such a heart. Take it and run with it. Realize the hope of those who have worked to form a national organization in order to fill in the fusty details and enable your charity. Corny? Finish one project then decide.
Many posters here feel disenfranchised and unappreciated afterward. Understandable. So what. Try it anyway.
(Contact me, even, if you like. Layne Hansen [lhansen@jensenprecast.com]---an IT exec in Nevada)
yeah, this is similar to what the lxny folks are doing. i'm trying to do the same in austin, texas. fwiw, here's a snippet of an email i got from my congressman, Lloyd Dogget. if you'd like to help, i've already found a school that wants to set up a linux computer lab. drop me a line and let me know.
cheers,
robert
Thank you very much for you interest in helping Austin area schools apply for E-rate money through the Schools and Libraries Division(SLC) of the Universal Service Administrative Company. For the past two years that E-rate money has been disbursed, I have worked closely with school districts in Travis County to ensure that they apply for this money so that our students have the best tools to learn and utilize the leading cutting edge technology.
At present, SLC is currently funding year two of this project, and on May 27, 1999 the Federal Communications Commission acted to fund the E-rate to the cap of $2.25 billion. In order to find out more information about the E-rate program I suggest that you visit www.slcfund.org. In addition you might want to contact Stephanie Hamilton, Director of Technology at Austin Independent School District, to let her know of your interest.
Thank you for having the confidence in me to assistance you with this matter, and I appreciate your commitment wanting to elevate the quality of our children's education. Should you need additional information on this issue or any other issue of a federal nature please do not hesitate to contact my office.
It's funny how this topic should come up.. I was pondering the other day about setting up a charity in England to provide free software, hardware, and technical consulting (no job too big or small) to charities who need the stuff to do their job but really can't afford it. I came up with the idea after hearing that my mums charity (the Rosemary foundation) had just bought a bunch of PC's, and not really knowing much about it ended up wasting money on kick-ass games machines because the vendor convinced them that this is what they need.
This is only an idea so far, but if anybody either
a) knows of an existing charity that's already doing this
b) is interested in helping
then contact me at gilesc@ftech.net
It's because whoever saved that gif didn't set the transparency problem. Rest assured that 5000 emails have informed various people ranging from hemos to the stockholders of Andover.net about this.
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
The group is called "Geeks Into The Streets", and the homepage is at http://linux.umbc.edu/ You can follow the links from there.
If we can keep people from treating the internet as an electronic babysitter, I don't think bringing internet access to kids will be much of a problem-- who knows, if we hook 'em up with Linux boxes, we might raise an entire generation of SysAdmins!
almost always 100% of the parents were willing to sign it.
Absolutely. We have a lab at the school I volunteer for in which we offer students email accounts on the system. The parents *and* the kids sign a waiver regarding the responsibilities and such. Pretty straight forward stuff and no one has turned it down yet.
To the guy with the original question... Get in touch with your local schools. They *love* volunteers. Talk to whoever is running the technology side of things and see how you can help. Content should be the school's problem to solve. We just teach our kids to be kind to each other, post as themselves and browse like your parents were watching over your shoulder. So far everyone has been well behaved and the few slip ups have been good lessons for everyone.
"I have a cunning plan..."
What would happen to society if everyone suddenly (by a miracle) learned how their computers worked?
Gee?... Microsoft wouldn't be able to sell their product anymore?
I mean, if everyone knew how their computers worked...
would they be willing to spend money on a product that
used it the wrong or inefficient way?
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
Question 1: www.netday96.com
Question 2: No, not that I wouldn't like to.
Question 3: Yes.
Question 4: www.netday96.com
On your inferred question about liability issues such as politicians/bureacrats targeting you because of internet issues:
It is the responsibility of the governing board (and the school staff) of the school or school district to 'protect' students from harm, although I've seen a few disclaimer forms around that sound like schools disclaim any monetary claim to safety (physical or otherwise) on behalf of students.
Contact Netday96 and get with helping those children out (if they are in public school you better bet they need help, it is government school after all).
The whole issue would more of a moot point if only government government got out of the education business. The government school system purpetuates nothing so well as mediocrity and bloated bureacracy.
P.S. Did I mention you should look up www.netday96.com?
Devout follower of The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.
as far as the high school kids, I looked for ones who's parents didn't have the cash... I live in a rich school district, but there are some people here who have no money to spare. I made sure those technically capable but monetarily unable kids got a hookup.
EOM
This is truly an interesting question, I've personally delved into some different problems with this. 1.) is that most local organizations either want them but can't take them, or could take them but don't want them. I know that sounds silly, but I've had elementary schools tell me that they really need computers to upgrade from apple IIe's, but the district has a strict guidline saying they can only have a minimum of a pentium II/266 if they get new equipment.
2.) many places won't or can't take equipment because it messes with their tax setup. none of them have ever tried to explain this to me, and I truly wish I could find out how it all works. I don't even want to take any kind of tax break for this, and I think they might want to be able to say it came from a real charity. so much for helping people in need, right?
3.) helping individuals is great, but I would really suggest if you want to get into the computer charity thing that you do NOT do that, or if so, only on a limited basis. why? because of support. If you give computers to an organization, they can usually ask you questions all at once, you can train one person who can show others how to use things, etc... if you give them to people you come across through a church, school, or local organization, you seem to always end up helping them with hardware and software problems. (I had to change my work cell phone # because a group of poor folks I gave computers to email and surf the net would call me over 20 times a day!)
I don't mean to sound like a naysayer, because I truly think it is important to give out what we have to those who need it. but before you go out and start doing things, have a plan, and research things... as a previous poster said, find a local organization. they can be the best way to do things because the overhead is no issue.
locally in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, I like to volunteer at http://www.dragnet.com. dragnet is very cool and does alot of what I wanted to do.
Last note- if you want to have fun, my most exciting project was this: I went to a local high school, asked the math/computer teacher guy (there's always one) if he knew some kids who could really use a computer to learn programming, etc. I tracked down and met with 5 worthy little geeklings (reminded me alot of myself at that age), and gave them IBM thinkpads w/ a stock turbolinux install on them. all between 486/75's and pentium 120's. my only stipulation to them was that they HAD to use them for linux, and while I couldn't check up on them I really expected them to learn how to use it. So far, we've met up once every other month or so, I buy them pizza, and we do geek stuff and talk about linux. It's a great reward!
-Eric
egjerde@email(nospam)com
EOM
Oh boy, that's a hoot! :) I was more tired when I wrote that than I thought, I guess.
Thank you for providing that information. Reading "between the lines", it sounds like the computers you're receiving from the rehabilitation program are of higher quality than those which are sometimes donated by businesses. Because of the rapid pace of computer technology, I can see how that might be the case.
I will begin to think along the lines of teaching how to use computers rather than administrate them. Thanks again!
I'm glad you pointed this out. As has been said before, there is no success that can compensate for failure in the home. Parents must not try to defer their responsibility to anyone or anything.
:)
Now, I do tend to believe that computers improve reading and reasonings skills dramatically. And they can even be good for spelling. As evidence, I will draw from personal experience. (If this were an essay, I would provide more evidence.
I was introduced to the Commodore 64 at age 8. My parents did not buy any software nor even a magnetic storage device, and told us that if we wanted to use the computer we had to write programs for it. Lo and behold, after great struggles I learned BASIC. I was very, very happy when I figured out how to make a Christmas tree with blinking lights on the screen. For years, successfully writing a new program on a C-64 or Atari was an extremely rewarding experience. For the first two years, my Dad helped me write some of the programs, but it did not take long before I was doing things that were beyond what he'd learned in college.
I think my parents' decision to not buy any software, although it actually stemmed from a financial need, was probably the best decision in my case. Had they bought games, I would have simply played them. Programming at that early age forced me to think, toil, ponder, be creative, and solve problems. I had to learn to read quickly, understand higher math, and type words with perfect accuracy.
The results? Well, I won the spelling bee and I rarely if every use spell checkers (of course, this may be my unlucky day and someone may find a spelling mistake. Yes, I know there are gramatical errors.) I won a state math competition and went to the national level. My SAT scores are in the 99th percentile.
But not everything turned out right. Because I surpassed all of the educators at my school in computer skills, they very often called on me to fix the computers. In time I came to the conclusion that the teachers aren't as smart as they seem and I came to doubt that they were qualified to teach me. It was a very prideful conclusion and it caused my grades to suffer. I continually sought any excuse to go to the library where the computers were. In short, I rebelled against the whole school system.
But I continued to wear nice clothes and teachers continued to ask me for help, so no one knew I needed to be humbled but my parents. My parents worked hard with me, so my grades never fell too far. My social life was good because of my religion.
Glad you've read this far because this was turning into a lonnnggg life story. Back to the point: computer technology that forces the child to think can be very beneficial. However, a limit has to be placed on everything!
I'm also in Salt Lake City and I want to join the party!! E-mail me.
What's the deal with the icon for this story?
I do some work on the side for an public elementary school here in town that works with the university. The school administrators apprectiate any help they can get and will more then likely in your area welcome it. People always complain about public schools but dont do anything about it. A little time and little talent can help a school put computers in classrooms while sharpening your skill set. Im sorta lucky because the school I work with has 3 T1 connections, almost a many as the university's. =).
Hangtime
I've wondered about the same thing. Many companies donate computer equipments to schools and non-profit groups, but there is a serious lack of affordable support. How hard would it be to organize free, once a week support for computers in schools? Schedule it so that it everybody does it one saturday morning a month, go in for 4-5 hours and do desktop and network support, next week it's someone else's turn. As for the legal issues, it's up to the local school district to set their policies regarding internet access, filters, OS choices, etc. I'm interested in helping kids, not advocacy. If that's your priority, do it in the voting booth and at your school board meetings. Anyone who wants to try this in Houston, TX drop me an email.
This idea has got pretty big in New Zealand. What started out as a bunch of enthusiasts coming into a school and having a crack at networking the whole place in one day has now attracted big names and bigger money. When Net Day roles around now, it happens at a whole bunch of school and you have to apply etc. For more info check http://www.netday.net.nz/. Apparently it started in the US...
...Goes Unpunished!
Dave Bennett
Hey, Inteligent people can catch up. I got my first computer, a p166, 2 years ago. I was working in a computer lab 2 months later, installed linux after 8 months, and am now working at a nice summer job due to my programming skills.
It doesn't matter if you are behind, if you are willing to learn. I picked up Java as my first programming language. Then C++, it is really nice to be able to think in terms of objects. I am a better programmer(IMHO) because I never hacked basic, or C. I think in terms of objects, and that makes me one of the most valuable progammers where I work. I believe that I have now caught up.
umm. yes i'm sure snuff films are available at the local blockbuster.. oh wait, blockbuster doesnt carry the faces/traces of death series...
and Nazi propaganda never converted anyone? can you honestly believe that people would read "the jews are the cause of all evil" and believe it? well.. some ignorant idiots maybe.. as far as I know, or read, most people chose to follow or allow nazi'ism for the same reason a group of people will do nothing when they see someone being raped/beat up/injured.. it's group behavior, and the lack of decision making that happens when people are put into situations that they rather avoid.. read some sociology books sometime..
the point i was trying to make was not for anarchy, but for choice.. if you take away a person's ability or willingness to choose and think for themselves, you're left with either a bunch of zombies, or a bunch of very dissatisfied people who will end up rebelling and creating a civil war, a state much worse than anarchy..
maybe that is what we need, given that the alternatives arent looking too good right now.. take it as you will, but like any other situation in life, there are extremes which must be allowed for.. is it better to have a free state, with no government/activist group telling you what you should/shouldn't do, and have the occassional extremists that go out of their way to shock others, or would you rather be in the middle, safe from even your own shadow?
sometimes pushing the extreme, and accepting it is better than blindly accepting what the government tells you.. isnt that what the germans did in nazi days? close their eyes an ears and accept what the propaganda told them?
------ Poo-tee-weet?
does this constitute as something "even adults shouldn't see"? Sometimes i wonder about people, and their twisted sense of humor, etc..
but when someone else comes along and says that is something "even [fill in your suitable replacement for "nice"] people shouldn't see" you're pretty much sending one message.. "it offends my tastes, so we should ban it."
Now, I do agree that some things a kid might read on some obscure webpage (try reading some of those extreme religious/anti-religious sites, especially their humor sections) can affect the way they think about things... hell, a bird taking a nose dive and splatting crap on their face can affect the way they think.. but i really dont think that seeing a naked woman, reading about different philosophies, d/l'ing dirty jokes and/or playing gory games is gonna turn all kids into perverts, psychos, S&M torturers, or fundamentalists...
that's something that, for the lack of a simpler model, involves parents, school, friends, environment, and so on, and so forth..
not to say that computers *wont* affect it.. they just wont play that big of a role.. think of how many of us have seen/read stories and pictures that "even adults shouldn't see".. did we turn out to be perverted homicidal maniacs? did we all of a sudden give up being who we were and became all fiendish like some people like to believe?
i highly doubt that kids are so idiotic not to realize by themselves, and for themselves, what is and isnt an acceptable, and how far they can get away with breaking the rules just a bit..
Do we really want to make our kids into zombie-like yesmen/women, or do we want them to be able to think, and more importantly *choose* for themselves what to make of their lives?
just a thought or two at 2.30am
cheers
------ Poo-tee-weet?
The author stated he hooked the 4 yr old's 486 up to his/her "little LAN". Unless this poster is really Al Gore, they probably don't mean to imply this IS the Big I.
Hold on
Because everyone knows that the "prevailent" (see article) attitude on the Internet is one of excellent spelling...
That link is broken... It needs an .au on the end: http://www.computerbank.org.au
--
--
We apologise for the inconvenience.
It's always going to be your unlucky day if you say something like that. (Grammatical, by the way.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
I agree with the comments being made in this thread. Parents have the responsibility of preparing their children for all areas of life. Parents who rely on a surrogates (human, chemical, or electronic) to educate or entertain their children are shirking their responsibility every bit as much as those parents who abandon their families.
I would like to offer another perspective on your comment:
"When I have kids, I'll give them a computer with a command line interface, and if they are interested in learning to use it, I will teach them. Then, when they get to be teenagers, they can have their GUI."
It is not necessary to start with a command line interface to become skilled with computers. My first exposure to computers was when I was in high school. It was a command line interface. (teletype on a main frame) I don't know what kind of machine it was. I thought it was interesting but after a brief introduction I didn't do anything else with computers until several years later. I bought a Mac Plus for personal use and that use lead to a career in the computer industry. I have been employed as a graphic designer, user interface designer, and programmer. Computers are also one of my hobbies and my children are growing up surrounded by them.
We have Macintoshes, PC's, and PDA's. My children consider the various operating systems and input methods to be equally valid, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses. For example, my forth child, a four year old, is just as comfortable with DOS or LINUX as he is with Windows or the Mac OS. Because his reading skills are still limited he does need some assistance learning new commands or when confronted with new prompts or error messages, especially in the text based systems. He seems to understand that this is a normal part of learning.
I any endeavor curiosity and a willingness to learn are much more important than where you start in determining how proficient you become.
I played with apple II's [not IIe, not even II+] in school, and the first computer I owned was a TS1000. Where do you think I learned my command-line based skills? I learned to program by hacking together lines of spaghetti code so many years ago.
"Waste resources teaching kids specific skills"? I think not.
The party's over
I'd recommend you turn your efforts to an established charity at first.. There are a few reasons for this: 1) They've done the hard legal work, which sounds like one of your concerns. You won't be responsible, you'll just be volunteering. 2) An established charity or organization has a much larger chance of impacting an area -- these people spend every day thinking about how to reach and serve people in a certain community, as opposed to you and I who have day jobs, and will just be starting out with our best guesses as to what will work and what won't.
Also, it's easy to volunteer time to a local charitable organization...Really easy. Most inner city charities and public projects are desparately short staffed, especially when it comes to qualified technical individuals. It's just a matter of finding one. If you have a religious affiliation (that likes children), you might want to start there. Just calling your local YMCA in an urban setting should provide you with some solid leads..
I work with a Christian organization in Cambridge, Mass, for example. It's a collaboration between a Cambridge church (CVCF), full of Ivy League grads with money, or time, (not many have both), and Dorchester Temple, an inner city church with plenty of people, young and old, who would not otherwise have access to computer training, or exposure. The Ivy Leaguers do training at various levels, and are implementing a mentorship program for the kids. Some of the kids want to become entrepeneurs, artists, etc. Totally exciting stuff! It's easy, too..anyone on slashdot could make an impact -- the inner city is still largely at a mid-80s level of computer education.
I'll stop my exuberant cheering, here. But, in short, a couple of phone calls should book as much of your time as you'd like to fill helping charitable organizations, and they'll probably be able to help you fulfill your dreams of helping out much sooner than you could do on your own.
(e-mail Andrew Sears for more information.)
I worked in a charity similar to the one you described. It was called the "digital clubhouse", and was located in Sunnyvale, CA (heart of Silicon Valley). If you plan to start off such a venture, you need to find someone who is extremely charismatic and who is capable of talking the local tech companies into giving away free software and hardware (like premiere from Adobe and computers/printers from hp). You also need to find a group of loyal volunteers who can put in long hours, together with a handful of techies who can come on a regular basis. Running such a charity is a strange mess. On one hand you might have great servers that were donated by Sun; on the other hand you are scraping together pennies to purchase CAT 5 for cabling. Legal problems shouldn't be too much of an issue. Just make sure that everybody signs a waiver (one that would be cosigned by legal guardians in case of minors) that removes you from liability. Also make sure that there is a clear and conspiciously posted policy regarding internet usage. As for whether its worth donating time for charity . . . Let me just say it can be pretty fun if you can work with friends, but it does take a giant bite of your free time. You need to make a serious committment if you want things to work. For finding out more information, you might want to get in touch with the founder of an existing charity with goals similar to yours. People who run such operations are usually more than happy to share their experiences and wisdom.
How this one got past the moderators is beyond me, but really, what's wrong with being Mormon? Of course, by calling it "mormonism" you show that you don't know enough of the religion to really say.
I might get really worked up about it, but it's late, and I know how boring it can be, reading someone else rambling on about their religion. So I'll just finish by saying that I hope you learn a little about the LDS Church before you go bashing on us again.
I did some work with a local organization that was part of a public housing community. They have a computer learning center for children and adults. The children have to behave and sign in, and so do the adults. I set up a NAT server with linux in the adult room so that all the computers in there could use the internet through a single modem. It's not fun to do with a modem, but dsl should be great. Especially if you get a cisco 675 thingy, it's pretty easy to set up for doing that. If you just log your hours as volunteer time, you shouldn't have to worry about liability. The people who run it know a lot more about liability issues, and it usually comes down to supervision anyways. Ask if you can set up filtering software, or if even setting guidelines would be enough. It's great that you want to do this, if you have any questions or want any refernces about such places, please email me. travis@pulley.org
Shameless plug! http://blairewitch.com
I agree that a close bond to parents is important, but you're missing the point of giving children access to computers in a public environment. A lot of kids improve their education at places like these. If you read more books at an early age, you might have learned to spell correctly. Taking somehting into your hands and learning how to use it can be very helpful to you. And there's an excellent social environment if there are responsible people running it. Kids learn to share, they help each other learn, and they get kicked out if they're not being responsible. Their parents are encouraged to come with them to learn, even though many don't. Would you mind having your kid "babysitted" by a book? Computers help kids think on their own, but TV tends to think for them. Please don't get that confused.
How about teaming up with CompuMentor? I did a project with them in Colorado a few years ago. I though their organization was alright.
with the existing educational system.
About 3, almost 4 years ago, I participated in an event in California(don't know if it was in the rest of the country) called NetDay'96. About ten people volunteered to run network cable throughout the school, in preparation for a future internet connection. 3 years later, the cable is still unused.
I volunteered in my old elementery school's computer lab for several years, maintaining the Mac (ugh) network. There were some basic programs on the computers, educational games and such, but the teachers had absolutely no training or knowledge of the systems themselves, and the budget had long ago cut out the required funds for a real computer teacher. That computer lab has long since been disassembled and all of the machines have been placed in other classrooms, usually two to a classroom. Teachers do not have time to send students to the computers, so they end up gathering dust in a corner (the computers, not the students). My mother currently is a special ed aid at another elementary school, and the local prison donates computers to the school, refurbised by the prisoners. The 486's could be put to good use, but they currently only have win3.1 on them. Win95 is available for each...on CD...when the computers only have floppy drives. Linux would probably do halfway decent, but I don't have the time to teach the teachers, who are already scared of Macintoshes the ins and outs of UNIX.
My sister was recently telling me that when she was in 7th grade, a treat in computer class was getting to draw a picture on the apple 2 GS systems after finishing typing in a program. I had her particular teacher as well, and can report that this guy know less about the systems than most of the students.
I admire anyone with a will to get technology into schools, but we have to go against the current technophobic system and provide training for teachers, money to get teachers who know anything about computers, and real internet access, without limits.
I've learned the most on the internet when not looking for anything in particular, just surfing around looking at things that interest me. Kids should be able to do the same, without fear of getting in trouble. I think 'net access inherently lends itself to learning by osmosis. If you are out there, you will gradually pick up information.
It will take a while, but I think things will gradually get better for schools and net access. As soon as teachers can turn around, stop thinking like teachers, and see the potential in the internet, it will take off.
I'm done with my (semi-off topic)rant.
The internet poses a threat to those who fear freedom of information and ideas. The people who scream for internet censorship are not worried about pornography, or at least not only pornography. They are not so worried that their child is going to see T&A as they are that their child will encounter ideas or facts that don't correspond to the view of the world their parents are trying to spoon feed them. In other words they are afraid that their child might see something online that led them to conclusions not shared by the parents. This is also known as thinking for yourself. It is the unspoken right upon which other rights such as freedom of speech or freedom or religion depend. Without freedom of thought, you cannot speak your own mind nor have religious beliefs that are truly your own.
Pornography is used as an excuse to introduce censorship, which will then be used to attack other types of online content. This is already happening right now. The companies which create software packages such as CyberPatrol do not release their lists of banned sites, and many sites having nothing at all to do with pornography are on them. Sites dealing with social issues are frequently banned.
The only reliable means of controlling someone's mind is to control what they learn and what information they have access to.
The content online cannot be controlled by any one entity or power. Ideas and views must stand on their own against other ideas on merit alone. That scares people whose ideas are based on things that cannot be proven, or have already been proven false. These are the people who have the most to gain from internet censorship, and the most to lose from the free exchange of ideas that the internet represents. Online censorship is the digital equivalent of burning books.
So the next time you hear someone screaming about how online porn is harming kids, stop and look at that person and think about what deeper agenda they may be following. They may simply be a parent who is truly concerned about pornography alone. If people weren't concerned about the pornography there would be no issue for the book burners to use an excuse to begin with. Its sad that a legitmate concern can be so easily taken and twisted into an attack on all of us.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
First, a point. You can't avoid the risk of lawsuits, unless you want to live under a rock. A really desparate lawyer might take a case against somebody who provided pro bono support to a school, library, or museum, but he'd probably lose, and in some cases his client might face sanctions under SLAP suit laws. If you charged money for filtering software and made certain irresponsible represntations about its capability you might have some liability.
You may find an organization, like Net Day (www.netday.org) that is already doing what you want to do, or who needs local organizers. This is probably the best route for you, if there is a good match with what you want to do. If what you want to do is different, you can treat it like any other consulting gig. You find a client, make a proposal, interview him for his concerns, add your own ideas, write it up explaining any limitations you know of in advance.
If you have a new idea and are on fire to change the world, you could create a new non-profit organization. You'll probably want to organize as a 501c(3) organization so you are considered a charity for tax purposes. This involves some paperwork and delay from the IRS. Your states law may vary, but as a board member of a charity, your legal responsibilities and liabilities may be different from your for-profit counterparts. It is important, then to have a lawyer assist you in planning this so you understand your responsibilities, unlike creating a small for-profit enterprise such as an S-corporation, which you can do yourself.
Finally, if you do create a new charity, I'd have lots of advice, but there's really two important things you'll need to know at the outset. First, you should put together a good board of directors. Each member should bring resources to the table, such as money, contacts (very important in charity work), community standing or credibility, and experience. Some people just put their friends on the board, but when push comes to shove, the board makes the difference between success and failure.
Second, non-profits are from a management perspective almost exactly like for-profits. They run on money. Time is money. Opportunity costs are high (small donations are not worth pursuing unless its cash on the barrel and no questions asked). You need to pour time into them. They go through the same kind of stages of development a business does.
In all liklihood, you don't need to create a new charity to do what you want to do. If you just want to volunteer, just volunteer; you can even solicit donations on behalf of the school or institution you are volunteering for. You need to create the non-profit it it has to have its own identity, resources, and funding.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Interestingly enough, Linus told Loki that he wanted to see them make educational software for Linux.
Take this crap to a thread that gives a shit what you think dimwit!
If you can't keep that post on topic, then don't post!
I am not sure if this is a troll or not. Oh well, I will feed the troll.
After a couple of minutes of rocking back and forth and moaning, she climbed back off, giggled, and ran back to her room
You let this continue for a couple minutes? Whats wrong with you? The second you discovered what was going on, you should have stopped the situation and explained why it was wrong. Letting it ride, even untill she gets to her room removes the act from the consequence. Stop the situation right away. Deal with it right away. Explain right away.
I'm going to take my pants off right now and spank her
The second reason I think this is a troll. Do you always take your pants off when you spank your daughter? Seems quite sick to me.
Good thing you posted as AC.
Geez, I gotta hit 'refresh' before I post such obvious replies...
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
In this class make these parents explicitly aware of both the benefits and the dangers of allowing their progeny access to the internet. Also explain that the internet is not the only danger (violent games come to mind). Explain to them the extraordinary necessity for parental supervision and guidance. Perhaps suggest that internet access is not necessary until the kids learn more about the computer itself.
Next step is the obvious waiver of liability for all those wonderful legal terms, like:
Obviously, no signed waiver, no computer. If the class worries off a few parents, so be it. There will most likely be many others on the waiting list.
Good luck in your venture. Regardless of what others may say, it is very worthwhile.
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
- Know how nylon is made?
- Rubber?
- Know how to fly an aircraft? (just the basics)
- Know what the acronym NASDAQ means?
- Know how to plant & grow a garden?
Can you...- Fix a car? (Beyond fuel, oil & tires)
- Calculate compound interest?
- Build a crystal radio?
- Explain the workings of a switching power supply? (I'll settle for how it gets away with the teeny little transformer...)
- Diagnose an illness...
Okay, that's a lengthy list of rehtorical questions. Here's the point:There are a lot of things in our lives that require specialized knowledge. Programming. Flying. Auto Mechanics. Accounting. Electrical or chemical engineering. Medicine. Many of us are knowledgeable in several fields. I can fly a Cessna 172, but not a 747. I've done engine replacements in a VW. I'm getting to the point where I at least understand what makes the things around me work. I'll never be all the things listed above, and I'd be nuts to try.
Our world is a specialized palce, and we are some of the specialists. That's what makes us valuable. Some things are far too complex for a lay person to completely understand, that's where we come in.
Would you expect your doctor to laugh (to other doctors) that one of her patients couldn't diagnose & treat a hot appendix? Of course not. I expect that we will come to the point where computers are the same way. People will bring their ailing machines in, we'll take them into the back room, fix 'em, and hand these people a bill. Thanks for your buisness, don't forget your 6 month checkup.
Just watch out for the "Computer HMOs".
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
This is not only a good idea, it is fundamentally important. In the future there are likely to be two classes of people (ala Shockwave Rider by John Brunner) - those in the know and the poor. We are at that cusp - those controlling the rich nations have yet to realise (for the most part) that the information age is upon them and the world is about to shift, just as it did with the industrial revolution. This isn't just a shift in the way we work but in the fabric of our society. We can't afford to make information the realm of the elite -it has (HAS) to be available to all and the best way to do that is to start with the children.
Good luck in your mission.
I have seen similar projects attempted here in New Zealand and one school in particular is looking at installing Citrix Metaframe so parents can install a thin client unit at home and have net access on the cheap (buying bandwidth from schools, using their IT support etc). Great idea.
I am a leaf on the wind
Having read the report linked, I find the content disturbing. Unfortunately, the report relies on developmental research to assert potential damage done to children by teaching through abstraction. This was certainly not what was intended by the research cited. There is no research cited which specifically addresses the supposed pernicious effects of abstract thinking on children. The research cited merely outlines the developmental stages currently understood. Certainly, the effects of the existing education system at the time of these reports (not emphasizing abstraction) cannot be separated from the development of the subjects of this research. My objections to the proposed "solutions" from this report are threefold - personal-anecdotal, developmental, and pragmatic.
My personal situation is perhaps atypical of the general population, but, I would suggest, not atypical of the population of this forum. I was taught basic algebra at home when I was in the second grade (age ~ 7-8). I began to program, using BASIC and LOGO at about the same time. While there were some abstractions and concepts at that time that I could not grasp, my understanding of these concepts developed as I continued to learn. Most importantly, however, I learned to think abstractly. More to the point, this thought method added to, rather than detracted from, my ability to think concretely. Certainly, it has not detracted from my personal relationships - I have maintained "normal" personal relationships, and have achieved some measure of political success. My thought patterns are certainly not constrained by one language (English, French, BASIC, LOGO, Pascal, C, C++, Assembler, LISP, Prolog or FORTRAN), rather, my ability to express concepts through formal languages has alllowed me to think about more complex concepts. Incidentally, having graduated high school at the age of 16, I find your suggestion that one should not learn about software until the age of 17 purely ludicrous.
From a developmental perspective, I find the work of _many_ developmental psychologists to be simply insulting to children. I believe that much research in this field vastly underestimates children's abilities to think abstractly. Certainly, every human sees her world abstractly. We don't think about the wavelength of light - we see a blue table as "blue." We communicate vocally and in written text - that is to say, we are able to associate a concept with a discrete set of phonemes or glyphs. To suggest that abstraction is mentally damaging is dangerous in and of itself. More important is the issue of fixing thought patterns. A child's thought patterns are formed very early. As a result, it is much easier to teach a child to think in a highly abstract manner, than to teach a high school student (whose thought patterns are well established) the same. This leads to a number of problems which _are_ being observed in the later levels of education.
From a pragmatic point of view, we see now a vast demand for information technology workers. However, we see a very small supply. Why is this? In my experience, many students at the high school level studying trigonometry, calculus, or other mathematical sciences are crippled by their lack of high order abstract thought. Many of these students are incapable of developing the thought patterns needed to solve problems of this sort. As a result, many students who might otherwise have been capable, strong thinkers and developers have been spoiled. Students arrive at their first year of university studies, and are presented with the almost completely abstract task of programming. Many fail to move forward. Those who are capable of further higher order work are held back by their classmates who have been failed by the education system. To look at the problem of supply of information technology workers at only the university or high school levels is to miss the point _completely_. The reason most students don't succeed in Computing Science is that they don't know how to think about Computing Science.
I would urge the Des Moines Public School District (named in the report) to examine this report, and the research that it is predicated on thoroughly. I would also urge all educators and parents to actively seek out opposing viewpoints on this _vastly_ important issue. Don't underestimate your children.
That's an attractive idea, i guess many have been thinking about.
In order to face liability issues, a first suggestion is that gaining
confidence of local educational institutions or associations could
be of much help. It should be part of your effort to approach
sensitive people.
Combining our technical offer with a well pondered selection of
software applications would surely form a more interesting proposal;
Openclassroom http://www.openclassroom.com/ seems to aim just
at giving that kind of international support.
As far as i know, exploiting software applications in education
(not only professional training, i mean) is a rather unexplored field.
It could completely upset our educational system.
Six months ago I've read a book that has been on the internet for years,
"Computers as Tutors" by Frederick Bennett,
http://www.cris.com/~faben1/tofc.shtml where the author
brings out some unexpected possibilities that could follow.
The point that struck me most is about learning at home. Our children
spend many hours per day watching tv, totally immerse in movie's,
cartoons' and tales' plots.
Why not create the same seductive condition to teach history and maths?
Developing 'intelligent' software applications could make children
spend hours per day, 'lost' in their daily lessons.
Are there Open Projects in this field?
Relation with teachers/professors (that stay as the only foundation
of any educative project, anyway) would reduce to head-to-head meetings,
for a few hours a week, but surely more personal, intense and profitable
than it is schools, today.
Pol
-- cstc ---
::About 3, almost 4 years ago, I participated in an event in California(don't know if it was in the rest of the country) called NetDay'96. About ten people volunteered to run network cable throughout the school, in preparation for a future internet connection. 3 years later, the cable is still unused.::
Ah, NetDay. I remember cleaning up after that mess. Now, don't get me wrong, the idea was a good and noble one, but it was executed very poorly, as far as I witnessed at the school I was admining at the time.
First, a primer: NetDay '96 was a charity event that recruited volunteers and solicited donations from many hi-tech companies. The volunteers then did as much work as was possible with the equipment: from pulling wire to setting up a functional lan.
The weak link in this chain was "volunteer." Of all the voluneers that pulled wire at my school, not one had previous networking experience. They were taught the basics and went nuts. They proceeded to pull CAT5 to 100+ rooms and punch it down - backwards. When computers were rolled in, the faculty, expecting the Microsoft Dream of Plug-n-pray, found that nothing happened when they plugged them into the wall.
Now, it's a forgone conclusion that out of close to a thousand students, a handful are knowledgeable about networking. These handful (PTS, JMV, DTS, and AJ - initials used to protect the otherwise pristine record of a school that Really Fucked Up In The Technology Dept.) saw the NetDay catastrophe, knew that going through official channels would take years to get anything going through those pipes, and knew Something Had To Be Done. PTS went unto the administration and brought up the dormant wire. The administration said, "you think you can do better? Fine. Do it yourself."
Those words would haunt them for the next 3 years.
PTS got JMV, DTS, and AJ and the four of them, with a teacher as their "supervisor," went around to all 100+ classrooms and rewired all of them. They went down to the library, got a wall erected in the back to separate an area from the library proper, and built two servers - an NT server to satisfy the Microsoft contract that was left there by the NetDay crew, and a Linux box to do all the real work. Around this time, I wound up in the group as the resident Webmaster and NT reinstaller (I'm sorry, but no "mission-critical" server should require a reinstall every three months, no matter HOW many stupid people are banging on it), and thus began the smoothest running two years of that school's life.
Until PTS, JMV, DTS and AJ graduated, leaving me to deal with an entire school of 95 boxen and a raft of assistants who were learning as we went along, but THAT'S another story... =)
I probably don't agree about the Catch up part. But the moral part is dead on. At 9 years old I started on the computer. It was horrific to me because I had no storage devices (tape or floppy drive) and I had to program everything in and watch it vanish. I've heard worse stories of these things called punch cards :)
Anyways... I was into the local BBS scene. My mother, who still doesn't know an off from on switch, was worried and told me to be careful. I wasn't too careful. I read the Anarchist cookbook. I met shady computer people at malls (some of whom taught me much about programming). And I actually ran a BBS a few years later. But, I grew up to be a pretty well adjusted person with morals. I guess my mother taught me something very important, there is much to worry about if your not told to worry about it.
it is unhealthy for kids under seven to be using computers. it is even worse for them than watching television. they need to learn about interacting with living things like plants, people, animals, before immersing themselves in the world of machine logic. if your opinion is otherwise, you condemn a lot of kids to damaged and limited human functionality in later years. for some scientific research on the subject, see: Technical Report RT-MAC-9508, Dept. of Computer Science, Institute of Mathematics and Statistics, University of São Paulo, July 1995. http://www.ime.usp.br/~vwsetzer/comp-in-educ.html Abstract -- This paper presents some considerations concerning the use of computers in education. We justify this use through the need to teach what they are and how they may be employed. An important consideration is the timing for this teaching: we place it at the high school level. We consider earlier uses of computers at home or school as damaging to children and teenagers.
A friend and I are trying to start up a Linux club at our local college, and we could use that surplus computer equitpment for the club. This could really help us out alot since we don't have deep pockets, and this is a volentear effort (that meens we arn't recieving any finacial support or compencation for this).
Also, my formor electronics instructor could also use that surplus equiptment. He teaches at a local rehabiulation center, and thanks to buget cuts and other polictal nonsense, he very often has trouble getting equiptment. In fact, most of the equiptment he uses in his class is surplus, donated, or salvaged.
Please email me the info, I will especialy need to know how much and what kind of equpitment we're talking about, what condition it's in, and a appoximate quote on shipping (I'm in WV, if that helps).
Thanks.
That's sick! (retch)
What we need is laws that require, say, a pornographic site to respond with a HTTP header such as "Content-Restrictions: XXX". That way, filter software can work, yet information will not be censored.
Or better yet, give the adult sites thier own top level domain(for example,
I don't agree with the idea of using
If the two censorware disscussions on
Granted, this is not the "look good" "feel good" soulution that the polititions and the "legistate moarliaty" and "protect the children" interests would likly want, and it's not a perfect soulition, but it's far more workable, and, IMO, a far better idea than any legestation could ever hope to be.
My $0.02.
Do whatever you can to help out. If someone refuses to take equipment that's "up to spec," then it's their problem. Find someone who will. As far as liability goes, there is none really. If anything, recommend or install software to filter out inappropriate sites. The best regulation of the Internet is self-regulation.
-Rafi Remove the Spanish to email me.
I agree. I saw a small debate a while back, perhaps on some political show, between Clifford Stoll, and a high-ranking educator who was trying to bring computers into the classroom. They both had good arguments, but Clifford Stoll's caught my interest more. Here was this Berkeley hacker/astronomy who had just traced an electronic trail back to a band of crackers in Germany, who was sitting on TV promoting reading books outside under a REAL tree on REAL grass looking up at a REAL sky. Sure, he might have been a bit eccentric and overzealous himself, but the point was still valid. Computing is a not a panacea. Who would have ever thought overloading kids with information (most of it extraneous) would ever help them grow mature and learn? I really wish government would not blow millions, if not billions, of tax payers' dollars to put more computers in schools. It WOULD be nice for every public school to have at least a small computer lab (maybe @10 OLD networked computers), but outfitting kids with laptops? That's insane. It is fitting that Clifford Stoll, as a technologist, is advocating that this NOT happen. People who *understand* the technology know what it is good for and what it is not good for, unlike others who rely on Cyber-this and e-that buzzwords. Please, making our children into Borg, although it may solve some problems ;), I don't think is really the solution.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
My grandfather is the coolest guy. He started playing around with computer kits when they ere first coming out (early 70's). I remember playing Buck Rogers on his Adam (tape cassettes!), and some other funky multi-piece computer thing he had. I believe he had WebTV for a while (I really can't say anything about this because I have no idea what it is like). He is finally "on the net", with a new Dell. I hope he has a rich experience (and despite the absolutely overwhelming amount of vapid crap on the net, there really ARE some site with very worthwhile content...hey slashdot for one ;) on the net.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
"Consider this: you have (decent) computer training. Would you take your skills to a low-paying, poorly equipped public school?"
;)
Yes. I'm usually bored on the weekend. I wouldn't mind fostering a computer network once a week or once every other week or something. I just bought a 486 for my girlfriends 10 year old younger brother and am introducing him to Pascal, and VB (easier to get interested in a RAD environment).
Then again I'm a loser with no life
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I agree with you totally, censorship is the spawn of Satan, but there is a problem with your proposal... who is going to enforce these laws? The US government? That's fine and all for pornography sites inside the US' jurisdiction, but you're forgetting all the sites that are based outside the US, some in countries in which none of its citizens find nudity offensive. Something like that just isn't feasible... My 2
Man I want a kid someday. Just so I can teach her/him how to use computers and such... Well, not just that, but that would be a great experience. :)
:P
It'd be just my luck if (s)he was a jock.
but don't provide the Internet access or any "non-productivity software." By all means include a modem, but let the people you donate the computer to set up their own net access. Why? Because in this way you avoid the liability issue. While the current position people have about the Internet is pretty absurd, especially in Utah, you can't change the whole area's attitudes. (Remember, this is a place where a video store was earning money editing the "naughty bits" out of Titanic.) But if you just give a kid a computer with some good wordprocessing software and the like, their parents may (or may not) decide to hook them up to the Internet.
Oh, it is very good for a kid to have exposure to computers at a young age, despite other opinions I've heard on this forum. I did, and I was still an avid reader. The thing that held me back the most in math was a stubborn refusal to use calculators even when doing complex algebra even when the other kids were using them! So, I would be doing my long division out by hand, and not completing my exams while other kids who weren't as good as I was completed on time and got better grades. Why? Because I read some well meaning story in Highlights for children about an alien that was really impressed by a human child who could do math without a calculator.
Embrace technology, don't fear it. Keeping your kids away from computers may end up holding them back, if they aren't learning their other subjects just concentrate on making sure they do, don't try to blame tech!
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Exactly. Anybody who knows anything about filter software knows it will never be able to be perfect (unless someone develops artificial consciousness very soon). Anyone can take a few filter programs, and run their web page through them until it gets past.
;-) )
I hate censorship, and would hate to see anything banned by the government, but that doesn't mean it can't be restricted. What we need is laws that require, say, a pornographic site to respond with a HTTP header such as "Content-Restrictions: XXX". That way, filter software can work, yet information will not be censored.
This could also be used in civil law instead. If some parent wants to sue because they didn't have the header, they can, and if it did, they should have had software filtering it (or they could sue Microsoft because MS-ChildSafe crashed
(Don't start a ratings debate. The law already defines pornography, etc, so it only needs to be extended.)
[Please excuse my written-when-I-should-be-getting-some-sleep English.]
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
At home we use CharacterLink, which is an ISP that white-list filters content on the server, meaning initially all sites are verboten and only those which are checked out are allowed. 80% of the stuff I visit is already available, and when a site hasn't been reviewed, the server returns a page with a Submit button that allows you to add the site to the review queue. They usually get OK'd within six hours to the next business day.
You might think this terribly restricting but I haven't found it too terrible. They Ok'd Slashdot for crying out loud, and that right quickly. I can edit my home page, and use any kind of search engine, and they also block many advertisements, which is nice since I hate banner ads. The administrator for any account can set what attributes will prevent a page from being displayed. I think it would be an excellent solution for the proposed charity, financial issues aside (CharacterLink has good package deals for non-profit customers - something like 25 accounts for $150/mo).
However, tv can be genuinely educational. My mother tells me I learned to read (at the age of 2) from The Electric Company. I certainly learned as much basic science from Mr. Wizard as I did in school. Square One, also, I remember as very good. Furthermore, don't discount the value of good, smart satire. It may not come up often in network television, but it does happen, occasionally even in commercials, disturbing though the social/political ramifications of that may be. After all, their production values per second are far higher than those of the programming, and plenty of people in advertising are quite intelligent.
There's no reason why television can't be good; it's just that it often isn't. But do we honestly think that most of the stuff on the Web is brilliant?
I understand that the immediate worry is over being sued, not about actually harming the kids, but let's look at that for a moment.
What is the perceived danger from the internet? Take racism, porn and information (such as drugs or bomb making) in turn:
The child may easily find a site that is openly hostile to their culture, such as a Nazi site (or CNN, depending on the culture). This will teach them their culture has enemies. Good. If you were living near a minefield you wouldn't think of shielding your children from the images of victims to protect their innocense, would you? No, you would welcome the chance to acknowledge the risks and provide comfort.
Then there is porn. The great majority of it is extremely distasteful but that is because of money, not sex. Lurid descriptions of unaffectionate and relatively unarousing activities will be sprawled over the lower ranks of just about any search result page, like trinket hawkers in package tour destinations. This will expose the child to great rudeness and, if they are actually interested to look at the porn, frustration as they click on the link and ten separate browser windows full of banner ads pop up. The child will quickly form the impression that porn is a world where women apparently made of shiny plastic perform stylish sexual acrobatics while asking for your credit card number. A parent ought to explain that this false commercial crap and advise their boy or girl to seek affection among their real-life friends, as kids have done for ages.
Commercial porn aside, if a child is so lucky as to stumble onto a site that some couple put up of themselves making love, well what is so bad about that? As far as I recall from myself and friends occasionally seeing real people have sex, the child may be aroused or bored, or possibly a bit jealous, but not disturbed. There are indeed some sites that appear disturbing (such as S&M), or that are genuinely disturbing (not consensual), but the imagery is so frightening that I doubt the child will want to immerse themselves in these activities. Rather I imagine the child may need some reassurance as they would for racism. This is a risk to innocence, but I'm not sure it's a bigger risk than innocence.
Then there are the bomb making and drug taking information sites. These are real freedom of information issues that are genuinely going to make hard work for the parents, in the same way as notions of religious reformation would have done centuries ago. The parents will have to make the case for their preferred value systems and their views of life and personal fulfillment to the children. As well they should. When were they thinking of having these discussions? Not knowing anything about drugs will only help your kid be poisoned faster. Having to counter drug positive sites might give parents a chance to come up with some vaguely convincing reasons to avoid them, and would certainly reduce the attraction of the taboo.
Pavlos
My experience with computers is similar. My first computer was a 486-33mhz with Windows 3.0. I was horrified, but after fooling around with it for a while, I found it to be pretty cool. I am now 16, know programming, web design, fundamentals of computers, and advanced networking. I have been offered multiple professional IT jobs in addition to my web design business, but I'm still in high school! I really don't believe that middle school is too late to start with computers. I, however, do believe that children need to know about computers, but they DON'T need net access at the age of 4.
Anyway, just some of my $.02
I totally agree. If parents would simply spend time with their children to teach them right vs. wrong, censorship would be irrelevant.
The best way to protect your kids from the internet? Simple. Put the computer in the lounge room, or wherever your TV is, with the monitor facing wherever you usually sit. I guarantee it's much better censorship that any sort of proxy or "safe surfing" software.
I asked a friend who works fulltime with high-tech non-profits; here's what she said:
Volunteer! Starting a nonprofit is like starting a busines -- you have to know your market first. It's a lot of work and money and not something to jump into too quickly. Volunteer first to not only share expertise, but also learn about needs and existing programs. He's right, not much going on in Salt Lake City. He should contact CompuMentor - www.compumentor.org - based in San Fran but does excellent volunteer matching all over and is a great resource in general. Also, contact your local United Way. No one knows the nonprofit and volunteer community better than the United Ways. If schools are your thing, maybe contact the school district to see if there are interesting volunteer programs that may suit your interests.
There is a organization that puts computers and such in Children's Hospitals around the country. Maybe you can help them out or get some info to get yourself started.
http://www.starlight.org/
newton62 (56617) Karma: Bad
If Internet protection is an issue, why not put the same idea into motion with a different slant? Instead of teaching children about the Internet, why not teach them about other aspects of information technology? At least until the current controversy over Internet content has subsided somewhat.
I read a science fiction novel recently (name is escaping me at the moment) that alluded to a country where children were taught a programming language along with their native tounge from birth. That particular idea might be a bit far-fetched, but think of the future benefits to disadvantaged children if they were fluent in a programming language by the time they reached, say 20 years of age?
Just a thought...
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
Send me an email with the info on that stuff and let me see what the freight will be.
Thanks.
--- Join my team at www.dcypher.net $10,000 to the winning computer #147 "Homebuilt Computer Users"
The QNX demo disk is a web-browser-onna-floppy. Although it's min 386+8MB, and I don't know about legality in this situation. Probably this is not what you want. :-) )
(OTOH, it could be a nice way of preventing kids from installing any software you don't want
I also recall from my DOS days a web-browser / newsreader integrated, that would run on a 286 / XT (although, from memory, not as nicely as it would on a 386).
Called Net-Tamer (aka Internet in a Thimble), it's on Simtel, or there is the home page.
(looks like they're still developing it too!)
--
Repton.
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
Pope Gates got skillz
You've made a great point there. This society puts way too much emphasis on the moral education of our children on everyone but the parents. I remember my first computer many years ago, an Apple ][e. I used the primitive email system in a school-sponsored exchange with a class from England on another Apple ][.
I like to think my parents did a really good job of giving me not only an academic but also a moral education. When I first started messing with the Internet, nobody needed to monitor me. I had the good wits to avoid objectionable content. It's not the search engines' fault, schools, the government, or anything else. It's the simple failure of parents to spend time instilling morals in their children.
Jonathan Wang
What would happen to society if everyone suddenly (by a miracle) learned how their computers worked? We'd lose an entier sector of jobs: tech support. As much as I hate dealing with idiot newbies, I have to admit that I depend on their computer stupidity to put green into my wallet.
Jonathan Wang
Consider this: you have (decent) computer training. Would you take your skills to a low-paying, poorly equipped public school? Does anybody TRULY, REALLY let selfless altruism guide their lives? I didn't think so.
I've been in private schools all my life,e xcept for a magnet primary school in the late 80s/early 90s. Guess waht? The technology programs at the private schools were great. We didn't have the best technology, but at least the teachers (for the most part) were competent. Even that magnet school didn't have the best computer teacher. She was a nice person, but didn't know too much about computers. People work for an incentive. When you commit yourself to a long-term, full-time job like that, you tend to find the best compensation you can get for those skills. United States public schools simply do not present that incentive.
Jonathan Wang
I would like to comend you for your desire to help kids in your area. This is how we can help to ennsure thhat our next generation is better off than ours.
I would recomend checking with your local library, most of these ofer computers and internet access for everyone that wants it, and could always use help. Also check with your community center they may already have a program in mind and just need someone with the expertise to carry it out, and if your community does not have these available speak with yur local city reprisenntitives they are always willing to help people better their communities without costing them money.
Is it worth it, YES. I personally volenteer my time teaching classes and giving tours at my local zoo, educating them on our enviroment. The enjoyment that the kids get is more than paymment for any services I provide, and I may be saving a child from the streets.
I think this is a first post!
Penguin Powered
Hi,
My reply doesn't involve personal charity, but local technology-related charity on the part of a sizeable business.
I work at a large FAA facility in Oklahoma City. The FAA's logistics center is here and, eventually, most of the FAA's outdated equipment is sent here for disposal. A section of the warehouse here in OKC is earmarked for this equipment and, once or twice a year, whenever enough old stuff accumulates, the FAA auctions it off by the pallet load to the highest bidder.
The equipment sent to the logistics center is of every sort imagineable: from old radar systems to aircraft parts, furniture, test equipment, etc. Many older (286/386/486) desktop PCs are turned in as well.
The folks that run the show in the warehouse have developed a program whereby the local school district has first pick of the desktop PCs, before the items go out to auction. The schools get the equipment for free.
I'm impressed with the program: it's a great way to help kids out as well as en excellent community relations builder.
Sorry, I didn't mean to make such a crass generalization, I wrote that at 2:00 AM. What I meant to say is that it is much HARDER to catch up, and that, unless somebody is VERY motivated, they probably will not.
Actually, a full PC system could EASILY be given to a child (as long as they were CAREFUL with it physically of course). The only thing to watch would be internet access.
But the question about internet access is if it really is harmful. Truth be told, if the parents were not so lazy, children would not be negatively influenced by the internet. And I'm not talking censorship either. All it takes is a firm ethical and moral standpoint to be taught to the children. This is NOT impossible.
I admit that I got the internet fairly early. I could poke at it from other peoples machines about age 13 or so, but the lack of a real connection for me was very isolating. So (I should have posted this as an AC) around 14 years old I hacked a feed myself and got in that way. Not something I'm terribly proud of, but necessary. But when I got on the internet, I intentionally avoided all "sick" or "off" sites, all objectionable material. It didn't take somebody watching me, it didn't take a filter, I just screened it myself.
If you think kids have no self control, ask yourselves: WHY NOT?
If parenting was taken more seriously, this would not be an issue.
Wow, I ranted longer than I thought.... Ah well...
Good idea actually. I learned on a C-128. No GUI unless you could use the CLI.
One point that should be made: DO NOT LET THEM PLAY ENDLESS HOURS OF COMPUTER GAMES WITHOUT CONDITIONS. When I was 5 on my C128, the condition was "1 hour programming, then 1 hour games". Actually, after I wrote "hello world" and "count to 100", I took to programming and the reality became more like "4 hours programming, 10 minutes games." to the point where I needed my own machine. But this WORKS.
Of course, if they can't stand programming, then they need to find something else to do ;) Actually any other PRODUCTIVE computer thing could be substituted here too if it mattered. Typing practice or graphics programs come to mind.
Can I ever post to /. without rambling? I wonder... Ah, 2:14AM, no wonder...
You're joking, right? This sounds like one of those "Society Against Technology" scams that runs on the Internet. Only an AC could post such trash.
i hate when people think that they need to childproof everything if u arent sued for exposing a child to the internet... which is evil then you will be sued for blocking off sites its a lose lose area becuz people are never happy no matter what u do to please some people others will be displeased... one reason i dont do any free working...
There's a guy I work with by the name of Charlie. He goes around to old computer stores and collects refurbished and/or junk hardware from the plethora of PC vendors & shops in the area. IIRC, he then just delivers them to local preschools as is. The school is responsible for the connectivity & network administration side of things.
I believe this would affect the liability side of things.
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
I've wanted such a thing to happen for a long time. My second daughter was born just two days ago (by pure coincidence, I also live in Salt Lake, where we have a higher birth rate than rabbits, so we know first-hand more about the issues of raising children than almost anybody ;-)
Let me know how I can help.
On a related issue, I've been working for a while on writing some software which auto-generates websites for use by family organizations, schools, religions, etc., tracking announcements, calendars, and such (I'm writing it for my own family and my local church, but it will work for anybody; non-profit sites only, of course!). It's not done yet, but of course I've been doing it alone in my spare time. It's not complex, so I could finish it fairly quickly if I see any interest in it. I hope more people will become interested in giving something back to these community groups who never seem to get much of anything from the software community.
Yet another related issue: I do a lot of commercial work in XML, and would like to donate time towards creating an XML standard for what could be called a "metasite", which would allow third-party trusted sites to wrapper (XML-based) a bunch of other sites. So maybe one metasite could specialize in defining all of the educational sites, while another would be computer utilities, etc. (they would also have a structure which organizes pointers to the other sites, making them all work together). It would be a type of Consumer Reports which defines web sites (but free, of course). We really need something like that which lets you look for stuff and not have things pop up which you don't want. A standardized file (and trusted host for that definition!) would allow a third party to say exactly what a site has and does and so on, making web searches actually useful for a change. It would be a great way to protect children (and everybody!) from the garbage on the net, and anybody who wants to could easily donate time to make it work. I've seen a non-profit web site which is almost a clone of Yahoo which somewhat attempts to do a better search site (what's the site name? I can't ever remember it), but it isn't really defining sites thoroghly, it's just putting them in general categories. What we really need is an XML format which really says what's in a site. If you do a search on such metadata and say it shouldn't turn up porno sites, it really would work for a change (of course if you wanted that, that's what you'd get). It wouldn't be flawless, but it would actually work. Any thoughts?
A solution I suggest for machines which are outdated is that we need to make VNC and similar applications more common. If you haven't tried VNC, it's very cool: it lets you do remote control of another machine, it's compatible (any OS to any OS or hardware), it's fairly fast (tolerable on a 28K modem, as long as you're not talking video games and such), it's small (~173K on client), and it's free. If we made more decent servers which are multiuser available, it would let people use VNC to remotely run applications that their 486 would never be able to do natively. I'm sure that's where much of software is headed, anyway. Somewhat a terminal on steroids. I would rather pay a monthly subscription to occasionally use specialized apps and such than have the hassle of installing them on my machines, anyway.
I attend a Spanish-speaking church (my wife is from Mexico, and I'm also fluent though I'm a gringo), and I would love to take your 486's off your hands to distribute there if I thought I had the time to administrate them. I wouldn't throw them away too fast; I'm sure such a group could use them, if you find a way to give them a basic install of Linux with word processors and such so they are useful to them. I especially like the idea of setting them up in a large room, all set up to remotely run their apps on at least one decent machine at the site. That seems like a great way to make old machines almost new again.
At my university they managed to almost double the size of an important lab by adding a bunch of cheap terminals in such a way (there were only two good machines for a ton of terminals, and it was just fine).
To be honest, if you told them it's Windows and installed Linux, they probably wouldn't ever notice the difference, other than the fact that it actually works and never crashes.
I'm curious too, now!
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
I am on the Board Of Directors for an Atlanta non-profit group called Freebytes. The goal of Freebytes is to take older computers and re-work them for local charities. Freebytes takes a small donation for the PC to cover overhead. Typically a Pentium 100 with printer, monitor, 16 MB RAM, 400 MB Hard Drive & fill software load goes for a $100 donation.
... http://www.freebytes.org
We're still trying to work out a networked configuration. Most of our PCs go to small groups, but schools are not out of the question. I can understand the concern about web content, but supervision always works better than filtering software.
Something along the lines of Freebytes might be a good starting point for you. There may be an organization in your area that works with computer recycling. Our group was started over 5 years ago by four high school students as a small project. Now Freebytes turns out 50-100 computers a quarter, and is working with the State of Georgia to redistribute some of the 5000 computers the state is moving out of service as a result of Y2K related upgrades.
Look at the site
It's not a very comprehensive web page (we're working on that), but it does have some info that may help. Feel free to e-mail me at brian@freebytes.net for extra information.
I never had a computer in my life before I was 13 years old. My first computer was a 486 66mhz and all I knew how to do was to play indycar and accidentally delete the autoexec.bat file. I am sixteen now and I know at least six programming languages, graphic design, webpage authoring, the principles of modern operating systems (GUI & console), and a whole boatload of other computer related things.
Based upon my experience, I don't think that children should be exposed to computers at such an early age when they should be learning social skills, arithmetic, reading/writing skills, etc.
The fact of the matter is that computers are based upon advanced mathematical and physics concepts. Would you place a college algebra book in front of a 4yr old and expect him to be able to factor quadratic expressions in his head after reading it?
"There is nothing more intimidating than an idiotic smile worn by a manifest non-idiot." --unknown
In an ideal world, it would be obvious to any reasonable person that like any other tool, a computer/network can and will be used for any number of purposes, including some that lead to harmful influence or harmful behaivour.
The internet is NOT television, and MUST not be used as a baysitting device. To those who want to regulate the internet to protect their children, I ask "what happened to parental supervision?"
The question of liability here is a complex one, and I don't claim to offer any advice here. It's just unfortunate that society's recent trend is to increasingly avoid one's own responsibility in favour of finding others to blame. In this case it threatens the disadvantaged. "The internet has warped my kid's fragile little mind! I'll sue the kindly chaps who donated the computer and set it up."
Why is the universe here? -Well, where else would it be?
These are examples of on-going grass roots organizations to recycle computers for the disabled and for education. Although, the focus may be on the economically disadvantaged.
I lived in Utah 10 years ago, and I know what you mean about it being conservative. With Utah spending dead last per student on education, you could say that all Utah students are economically disadvantaged...
That being said, if I were in Utah and I really wanted to see a project move forward to provide computers for kids in schools (or out), I might look into working with The Predominant Religion. You'd have donations of time, people and facilities for such an effort coming out of the woodwork. The issues of exposing kids to the nasty Internet would be handled by someone else.
If The Church were involved, the chances that someone would sue if somehow a child used a donated computer to access something blacklisted would be much decreased. And, if someone did sue, they would probably go after some of the gilding on the Moroni rather than some individual volunteer's pockets.
just a sample from a song (that could be a sample in turn):
...sie sind nicht grun
artist: pierrepoint
album: pulsing relight
year: 1999
song:
label: pronoize
genre: electronic/industrial/power electronics
...sie sind nicht grün
Having done several kinds of welfare work myself, even though in a different legal system over here in germany, I would like to invest my 2 Pfennig:
If you are not a person who likes paperwork and legal matters, dont try to start your own organisation, even if it only has a membership of 1. Instead, try to join an existing agency that you are comfortable with, preferrably where you share a common background in religion or philosophy.
Even if they didnt offer any services in the computer field yet, it shouldnt be to hard to convince someone to let you sail under their flag. This also helps a lot in the aquisition of used hardware, because - at least in my experience - potential donors have the strange tendency to ask "Well, if I give you this practically new 4-MB-386, is it tax-deductible?"
By making it absolutely clear from the beginning that you do what you do when you want, as long as you want and basically where you want, you can keep your freedom and still use an existing infrastructure for the benefit of all - you do the good work, the organisation gains in reputation and the kids get a better future - as far as technology can help to achieve it, that is.
Actually, this came up in the NPR debate as well. Yes, personally, I would mind. But it does depend a great deal on the age of the child. But, would you let you child pick out any book completely on thier own, not show it to you, take it into thier room, and spend hours away from you isolated with some book that you don't know anything about yourself? That's sort of the point. The supervision is missing. And, the supervision is the issue.
My point is simply, it has nothing to do with the "thing" the kid does. It has everything to do with who they do it with, or if they do it alone. And, that's where the dangers of Television and Computers come in... The children get an enormous amount of access to information that the parents don't take responsability for monitoring.
Society as a whole chose long long ago that children should listen to thier parents and obey until the age of 18, when they could declare thier independance. Anything that makes it easier for a parent to "get out of thier responsability" is something I am against.
So, no, I don't think it's wise to let them read a book on thier own as a substitute for reading with them or to them. And, if thier old enough to read on thier own and take a book into thier room to read it, it's highly unlikely they will click a button in the book and it will turn into something totally diffrent that something you as the parent saw them take into thier room. But, I sure wouldn't let them wander to the library on thier own at the age of 4 or 5, and pick something out on thier own, and take it into thier room without letting me know what it was... there are way to many things that can go wrong along the way.
Get the older people on the net. They have years of wisdom to share, that will benifit society as a whole.
Plus, if they waste a few hours looking at porn, or reading something inapproprate, where's the harm?
The risks and liabliaty is much lower.
The rewards for society are much higher. Documenting thier knowledge and skills for future generations is something that we all may benifit from someday. Need advice on a new buisness? Check Grandpa Wilson's experiances running his own hardware shop for 25 years on his web site... Need to learn to cook your own meals and save a few bucks? Read Great Aunt Jennys online recipies she developed after 40 years of feeding 8 children on a very low income....
Now, THIS is an idea I could get behind and would love to support.
Great idea, if you allow them to have one in thier own room or something. I think I will probably have a very good computer, up to date hardware and software, to make use of some of the wealth of educational software that's out there, which is mostly GUI. But, I intend to be there to keep an eye on that even. And, it will be in a "common" area, not in thier bedrooms.
As much fun as I have had drilling holes in the walls and floors and stringing stuff around to get diffrent rooms of my house to have access to a home LAN, I think I would at least wait until highschool before I let them have a computer with net access in thier own room... If then. Not sure. Hopefully, my children will be happy with using one in a common area, and will have the character to use it responsably. But I sure don't count on that, I plan on working on that, and being there, and watching out for problems, and dealing with them as they come up in a helpful way.
Sorry, I guess I answer some of your questions the best I can.
My project group was run on the schoo department level, in particually the "Office of Technology," which oversaw all the vocational programs. Computers really did not have a department yet, and the vocational department was chosen more or less by default. Since we were working for the school department directly, there was no really liability issues for us, but our BBS ("pre-ISP") service was privately owned, and he had some hoops he had to jump to get a contractual agreement from the school board.
The money for the programs came from private parties mostly, and from the NSF, but the governor's office previously had pissed off the NSF, so mostly they just breathed down our necks, hoping that we would fail.
Problems usually fell into my lap, and my boss, the director of O.T. I went out of my way to interface directly with teachers so that they would not give us trouble by going through official channels, raising the ire of administrators along the way.
Logistically, you really need about two FT people per school in order to make sure things run smoothly. As I was a student, I spent more time out of class than in. I was not expected to go to college, so that was not considered any great big deal. Media Services (remember filmstrip projectors?) handled the load in conjunction with me.
Today I would assume that most school departments have a "Office of Computing Technology " or something like that. If not, usually ask for Library Information Systems. If a school department does not have an LIS office, then home. Strangly enough, LIS usually can pick up the slack because of the HELIN project and they fact that usually have free "time". Of all the departments I have worked with, statically speaking LIS is the most computer-literate, and the one with the highest computer productivity.
Higher Ed only gets involved if you are proposing currcula changes or the like. If you are doing something completely revolutionary like 3D-chemical modeling (tryed it) then usually then high ed defers to the governor's office to do an offical inquery. For the "Internet project" we were lucky because we enticed PBS into it as well, so the governor got PR points out of it. At that time "the internet" was of limited value, and it was possible that we would have been shut down. Fortunately HELIN was just starting to ramp up, and the state univerity had recently updated their gopher server, And I had just figured out how to get weather reports from madlab.(umich?)
One little antidote - I used to carry around a little pocket knife, about 4 cm long - and the day of the "big meeting," the demo lab only had 4 PC wired up. Our ISP guy came in at about 2pm with 30 ethernet NICs and 10-base-2 cable to wire the rest of the lab for the meeting at 3pm. He forgot to bring a knife to splice with, so he borrows mine. We just made it, but my knife was never the same.
He got the contract, and now owns POPs in multiple states. He must be worth millions. Without that knife, he would probably still be a broke man, and "learning link" would not exist. I think I still have it somewhere, and sometimes I wonder if I should frame it with the inscription, "The knife that saved k12.edu" (Well, at least it would have been delayed until NCSA mosaic came around)
I am not on a crusade against GUIs, nor do I think that they spawned from the smoking pits of Hell, nor do I think they are for losers only, nor do I think they are the only way to learn to use a computer.
I am not saying that I have my entire forray into parenting years from now planned to the last detail. I was saying that as a kind of joke with an element of truth in it.
It came from my memories of writing a breakout game in 4th grade when I first learned to use the Apple IIe's command line interface. I remember how much fun it was, and how smart and computer-literate I felt (hey, it was 4th grade).
There really was something to say for doing everything without ever moving my hands from the keyboard. It was like I was working in overdrive, molding a program as an artist works with clay. Then it was VB and Visual C++, and they worked pretty well for the small projects I was always into, but an element of pioneering and discovery was lost. Not until I started programming for linux did I feel like that again.
Vidi, Vici, Veni
You are probably right: being with a parent is better than being with a computer or tv.
But most of the kids who would end up going to this thing would probably (if they're like everywhere else) be part of an after-school program of some sort. These would be kids whose parents would be at work until 5 or 6 every night. For them, it's probably not a choice between "be with mom" and "play Reader Rabbit" (do they still make that? I loved that thing). It's a choice between "go to afterschool program and use computers" or "go home and watch tv, possibly get into trouble". Unfortunately, it's not about choosing whether or not to use an "eletronic babysitter"--many parents have already made this choice either from laziness or being too busy or thinking that it's good in moderation. The real choice is often about which electronic babysitter does the least damage. I think most of us here (except possibly those with CTS) would agree that a computer would do the least damage, being interactive.
So in most cases, a parent is better, but when a parent isn't an option, then what?
The real question is: Is it better to have children play with each other under supervision (not a parent) like normal or use a computer under supervision, and which requires less supervision. The answer might be the same; kids might be better off playing red rover (they still do that one, too?) instead of using the computer.
I believe that the young are not the only ones that need to be exposed to the 'information superhighway'. In the US there is a large population of (older) retired persons whom could be a great resource to the net. At present, these persons have been completely ignored with relation to technology. Without even mentioning the idea, many older retired persons have expressed a great interest to me in learning computers and especially the internet. Apparently there is currently no reliable for-profit or non-profit group in my area (Houston, TX) that assists older persons with computers. Does anyone have any suggestions in relation to setting up a non-profit organization to assist them? Feel free to email (digitalh2o@bigfoot.com) me regarding this issue, too.
We are deploying several hundred Pentium 2-class PCs throughout the district over the summer with the goal of every single classroom having an Internet-capable computer at their disposal. In addition, the District has just approved $3 million dollars for new hardware purchases so that each teacher may have a reasonable machine upon which to work and browse the Internet. Internet access is filtered (at least HTTP access) through the Utah Education Network to remove objectionable material. Internet access is provided at the head-end through a single T1. So, to answer your questions:
If you really, really want to help fix systems, not just mentor children in their use, in Salt Lake City area schools, contact the Granite School DistrictHuman Resources Department and let them know you wish to volunteer -- they'll definitely be able to help you out.
Good luck to you in your volunteering efforts.
Matthew P. Barnson
I learn what I think when I read what I write
I was just listening to a long debate about the internet, computers, and television in childrens lives a few days ago. They made some very good points about why computers and television should be taken out of the lifes of children more and more. The reasons were not porn, or violence, or anything that you would like to call censorship.
The cases were clearly showing that parents are relying more and more on "electronic" babysitters, hoping the kids would just watch TV or play with thier computers, and staying "out of the way." Children need guidance, even if they are not subject to "bad" influances. Children have to be taught some lessons that they can't get from "electronic babysitters."
Social skills for one. I wouldn't want a whole generation of people who developed thier social skills on Usenet and Slashdot like sites, would you? Another point was that computers don't require any extensive amount of "logic" development, and the "better" a computer is in the public eyes, the less it requires from the users. This is why you get the BOFH stories, because people are given access to "powerful" computers without being taught any "logic" skills first. If we start giveing children more computer access at earlier ages, before we teach the basics (reading, lots and lots of math, etc..) they may call the helpdesk less, but it's unlikely they will be a generation of "better hackers" because they will lack some fundemental reasoning skills.
What it boiled down to is this: Parents _must_ spend more time with thier children, and _anything_ that comes in the way of that is going to cause more harm. The list of excuses to avoid this is endless... I got a program that can teach them more about math than I can personally, they need to learn independance, I don't have time because I need to be away earning a living to support them, etc, etc, etc.... But the simple fact is, they should be learning independance, self respect, math, social skills, pride, and logic under parental guidance. The fact that the parent doesn't have the ability to teach these things is not an excuse to "let someone else do it." What really needs to be said is, who we need to be teaching is the parents, not the children. We need to give the parents the skills to confront thier children, one on one, and make them into the people we would want to be our neighbors, friends, and reletives.
That being said, sure, a donation to a school of computers is a somewhat nobel thing. My children will probably have computers of thier own as well. But be warned, if the child grows to be more involved with any device more than they want to be involved with thier parents, it is an indication of something bad. And it is NOT unreasonable to remove the childs access to television or computers if the child is unwilling to spend time with the parents first.
Aside: Look at me, I can attempt to look at my life and be self critical. I am suposadly a highly educated, responsable adult. BUT, I can't spell very well at all. And, I will say frankly, that somewhere along the line someone just pointed out a "spelling checker" to me insted of taking the time to show me how important it is to be able to do it on my own. So now, although I "educated" I am relyant on an electronic device, and trying to go back and teach myself something I should have learned 20 years ago from a parent or teacher.
I could not possibly agree with you more!
I am always annoyed by parents that leave their kids in front of the tv to keep them "out of trouble". Perhaps thats what this whole debate over the internet it! Parents would like to leave their kid on the internet to keep them out of trouble, but they can't because it's not censored like tv. One of the short articles at the onion makes a great point about this - go to their page and look for the one called "Ritalin Cures Next Picasso".
We have to stop and think "What are we trying to do when we surround kids with technology?" Some parents will do this because they are kidding themselves into thinking their kids will have an "edge" in the new high tech world. We at slashdot ought to know better than that - they will just learn to point and click earlier. Hardly a hard-to-come-by skill.
There is something Neal Stephenson said that relates to this perfectly. I don't recall his exact words, but basically he said that the people that will control tomorrow's technology (and today's for that matter) are the ones that can comfortably deal with text. As in being able to read and write well. Multimedia is for the lusers - an interface for the 'eloi' out there.
Net access is great when people reach a certain age - it will help you to really see issues from all angles and get the whole story, as opposed to television newscasts which present a very one-sided version most of the time. It gives you another way to figure out who you are, express yourself, and find a community other than the ones you live among.
But little kids will not get that out of it. A 4 year old is much better off learning from a role model standing right there working with him/her, and playing with friends of the same age.
When I have kids, I'll give them a computer with a command line interface, and if they are interested in learning to use it, I will teach them. Then, when they get to be teenagers, they can have their GUI. That ought to be interesting.
Vidi, Vici, Veni