Slashdot Mirror
Encouraging Female Programmers
aquarium writes "Why is programming dominated by males? The St.Louis Post-Dispatch has a story that states one of the reasons is that girls are not encouraged to experiment with computers. Speaking as a male, I did not need anyone to encourage me to experiment with computers. It was something that just came naturally." According to the story, Carnegie Mellon University is actively recruiting female CS majors. This year they expect 37% of freshman CS students to be women, up from 8% in 1995.
I have read so many things about how women aren't encouraged to go into computer science. How women are not wired for computer science, how women just don't have the hacker gene, what not.
:)
To tell the truth I get kind of tired of it all. I am yet another geek girl, and I know I am not the only one. My first experience with a computer was with a Commadore PET in about 1980. You can click here to see the picture if you like.
PET pic
Since then I have not been without a computer. My father has a degree in computer science and through his job was able to bring home loaners from all periods of the history of the pc. I had a Vic 20, Commadore 64, an Atari 600 (I think), One of the first Macs, a Monroe Litton, IBM PC, Zenith AT, a 286, a 386, a 486, and a pentium.
I taught myself Basic, when I was 12, Pascal at 13, and C at 14. The year I taught myself C, was the same year I was in Grade 10, and I had my first computer class in school where I was "learning" Basic. I came out of that class with a perfect mark, and managed to start looking at assembly language by myself.
I saw high school computer classes as a waste of time and did not take another one, that didn't keep me from teaching myself new principles.
My dad first got me an internet account in 1992 because I was on BBSes all the time anyhow. So I went on the net, and learned Unix so I could make the most of my internet account.
I have the geek gene, it definately is neither a male or female thing. I am stubborn enough to want to keep working on things till they work, I am curious enough to keep learning about new technolgies, and I just plain love computers. Past Boyfriends have pointed to the monitor and accused it of stealing all the attention they wanted.
IDIOTS, It is the CPU I love.
Point at the case and you may have a relevant point.
One boyfriend called the computer my other boyfriend. My boyfriend now, he's a geek too, and he knows that if I am coding, that I am in the zone, and that he comes second. He doesn't mind, I have more computer knowlege and experience than he does, and when I am done, I'll be ready to show off what I have done, and explain it to him. A few of his friends, fellow techies - know I am more geeky than them too, and they are used to it now.
I made the mistake of not going directly to university out of high school, but I went back to school a few years ago to start my computer science degree (I am not finished it yet - I am on a break while I try to recoup financially). I encountered my first experiences with stereotyping at a university level. I would never be assumed to be in computer science by strangers, after all, I am female, I must be in Social Work, or Psychology. I didn't encounter any stereotyping from my classmates in computer science or any of my instructors. I was in the top 10% of my class and I quite enjoyed working with people who appreciated my mind and my technical abilities instead of (or perhaps as well as) my looks.
Girl geeks get stereotyped by society, yes, as shy introverted socially awkward plain janes. Male geeks are stereotyped too. Unattractive socially awkward dumpy short and wearing glasses. I am sure the male geeks appreciate the stereotypes just as much as the girls. I am an attractive woman, and I know attractive men in computer science as well.
Having a brain does not disfigure the body!
I think more women should go into computer science, so I can have more women friends to chat with who will understand when I am having a problem debugging a program at 4 am. So I can talk about a concept I thought up for setting up my server in a new more secure manner. I want female friends I can talk about the things that excite me, and their eyes will not glaze over.
The problem is not female role models, or sexist stereotypes.
Women, girls, check out MECCA and join the Syster's mailing list, or if you are a student, the Syster Student mailing list ( be prepared for tons of mail from Syster's).
Their url is http://www.systers.org/
That is almost enough of a ramble for me, I have decided not to include in this such things as a long ramble on Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, or any of the women who programmed the ENIAC, because if you knew anything about computer history - these are givens.
Hmmmm, I think it might have more to do with the fact that the male brain seems to respond and focus on visual cues, while females are more inclined to respond to auditory and tactual interaction. As programming takes alot of time spent staring at a screen silently, it just may inherently not be a womans cup of tea. For example I know alot of woman who use computers, and while they are in chat rooms in AOL or channels on IRC, they talk out loud when they respond, or read what is being typed to them. It might just sound silly to them to read C code out loud ;-)
S&P 500 utility eh. Well given Fl*rida's whopping economy I guess if you work in Fl*rida you work for TECO.
Times changed, and women started to demand access to this creation of man. That's when all the problems started. Men resisted women's attempts because they created the workplace to get away from women! Men wanted to act like men and do manly things, and this would have to stop if there were women around. Now we have all these extra rules and restrictions, and forcing men and women to act alike is making life difficult for everyone.
None of this would have happened if men treated women right in the first place. Women figured (rightly so) that if they were financially independent, they wouldn't need to depend on men, and they wouldn't have to put up with men. I believe that if men weren't such assholes and treated women properly, we'd have a lot fewer problems in our society.
What has this to do with women in CS? Well, the CS field is just one of those things that was created by men for men. That's not to say that women can't be programmers, but based on all the other comments, there seems to be a consensus that of the few women in the CS field, almost none of them are real hackers. And it's the real hackers that drive the industry. Men need to drive things, to push them forward, to discover what can and can't be done. There are some women who feel that way, but only a small percent, and apparently it depends on what field.
Having said that, I believe that it's very important for women to be encouraged into fields that are male-dominated, because we need to make sure that those who are able to compete in these fields (and believe me, it IS a competition) should be given the opportunity to do so if they want. But that's something that I think everything should have, not just women.
they're taken becuase they who find them know they've found A Good Thing.
not that there's anything wrong with the art/music women, either. for me, the ultimate is a programmer is who is also a musician.
Real communism actually is a good thing, but doesn't work with humans.
Communism most definately can work with humans, just not really large groups (ie: large cities, states, countries, etc.). If you isolated forty people on a desert island and came back in couple of years, you would probably see a very communist lifestyle among the island's residents. A communist economy is give-what-you-can-take-what-you-need system, and I don't think that can exist unless the population is a small, tightly-knit community. A large population is just incapable of the level of communication that a small group can have, and thus people get would left out of the major decisions and there would be endless bickering/feuding.
I can see your point, though. A communist system can crumble into dystopia when corruption is present (I think Stalin is a fairly good example, even though the USSR didn't have a true communist economy). Having a large population increases the chance that there will be people that abuse the system. But now that I think about, it wasn't intended that in capitalist economy 5% of the people would control 95% of the wealth, as seen here in the US.
Straying slightly from the subject, though: why is it that whenever discussions on communism in slashdot spur up, it never has anything to do with the subject that the person who mentions communism is talking about.
-Chris Andreasen
Also, women have been found to "double task" between brain hemispheres almost twice as efficently as males.
That you cited this point indicates that you agree that there is a fundamental difference between the inner workings of male and female brains. The brain is barely understood today and it is very likely that fundamental differences in thinking schemes could create improved efficiency in some kinds of problem solving while decreasing the efficiency in others. Therefore, to admit that there is *any* difference in the way men and women process information and complete tasks (as you did) also suggests a possible difference across the genders as to which forms of thinking/problem solving are more optimized and which ones are less optimized.
Where are more people like you? I've looked, honestly. All the female 'geeks' I've ran into have been maried. Oh well, guess I'll have to stick to dating art/music women for now.
just curious - what is the age ogf those female geeks? seems like in past the ratio was higher. in the older it shops there are more women than...
just an observation...
...sie sind nicht grün
well...i guess...stay on /. it seems to have worked for me!
*in 1950's commercial voice* Gee Golly Rob! Thanks Slashdot!
My issue with this whole argument is that we just know way too little about cognitive psychology to clearly identify any putative cognitive differences (the way people's brains are wired) between men and women. Some have been claimed, but to my mind there isn't nearly enough evidence for any of them.
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Do I look like I speak for my employer?
and i wasnt encouraged or discouraged by anyone! it was kinda like a calling....
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have a brain surgeon who graduated due to affirmative action working on me.
As far as the CS industry goes, we already have too many morons and just plain stupid people punching out code as it is (How else can you explain Windows?). Pushing underqualified people into the industry will only make things worse.
We're not talking about taking or providing jobs. We're talking about doing a good job.
Adding encouragement to a particular group is one thing. Making a quota is quite another.
But enough about me. A more appropriate link than CMU's front page might be CMU's Computer Science Department.
And, about time we got more females... Maybe now they're joining the CS school in force, we won't have the common problem of them transferring out after a year or two. With low percentages of them, I can certainly understand why.
--Carl
You could make the same unsound argument about the men that take no interest at all in programming (the overwhealming majority). Is it because their parents gave them Babies instead of soldering irons? Thought experiment concluded.
I applaud CMU for trying to recruit at institutions which are good in math, science instead of lowering the standards. It also should change the balance of females here in technical programs to a reasonable level instead of the ridiculous level that it used to be. However using verbal SAT to recruit people into CS is just plain stupid i'll admit I got an 800 verbal but it only shows a large vocabulary not the creativity to solve a programming problem.
More female CS majors is good
Coincidentally, the fields with high concentrations of women and minorities usually end up being the ones with the lowest earning potential. I figure that the best way to get society to push more women into programming is to cut programmers' salaries in half.
as an Orientation Counsellor. They're a pretty sharp bunch.
The class of 2001 has 14 women.
The class of '02 has 28 (my year). We were impressed by that.
Way to go geek chicks!
Seriously, I'm impressed that CMU has come this far without resorting to quotas, only recruiting heavily in the areas they feel need more diversity.
I was reading the replies that slashdotters left, and I have to say, there are some interesting theories as to why women aren't involved in CS or programming.
Many theories are simply old prejudice or even phobia, but some deserve real consideration. Here are a few of the best:
* Women are wired differently.
- While this is true, the people I find saying this don't fully understand it. Studdy some evolutionary bioligy. You'll see that the difference between men and women is like the difference between 6+4 and 2+8 (a little different, but in the end still equal).
* Women aren't raised to do this.
- I can't say much about this. I wasn't raised with barbies, but I wasn't raised with toy trucks or army men either. I guess I'm a-sexual.
* This is reverse descrimintation.
- This is equal opportunity. They're just a little vocal about it.
* High Schools are at fault. They push girls into other fields.
- I've seen this first hand. Though, at my school, none of the girls have shown any interest in computing beyond the user definition. *That* is what needs fixing!
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It looks like the question behind all of these is: Why aren't more women in CS? What makes a geek?
While I don't know what makes a geek, I can tell you what made me one, and maybe others can share the stories of their enlightenment.
I was in elementary school; just drifting. My father went back to college when he was laid off. He minored in CS and got a computer. I started enjoying the games on it - JumpMan, Maria, Shamus, and Chess. It didn't take long for me to learn DOS and want to learn more. I was reading everything I could find on computer architecture. I became a geek.
This has some positive side effects in other areas too. Geekdome changed me. When my first grade teacher wanted me to read "Dick and Jane" with the class, I had to put down my Steven King. When my classmates read "Goosebumps", I read "The Fundimentals of Logic."
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This needs to happen to more girls. It doesn't just make people programmers - it makes better people.
So, the question is here. What exactly makes a geek? Can we make more girls geeks?
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P.S. I believe windows is making computing more surface oriented; that it makes users and stops people from really asking about the computer behind the scenes.
Guys, women who might possibly have an interest in entering CS often are discouraged from pursuing them in ways that you might not even *notice*, because they might not happen to you. It's bad to be a geek in high school, but it's worse to be a female geek, at a time when, as a girl, there is *tremendous* pressure to be *beautiful*. Not strong, or interesting, or intelligent or anything that would differentiate you from a Barbie Doll, but *beautiful*. This puts a big strain on girls who are intelligent, or strong-willed or weird in various ways, to conform, and play dumb and pretty in order to be popular, have friends, dates etc etc. These traits conflict with the intellectual confidence, competence and ambition necessary to succeed or even consider pursuing a career in a technical field. I mention high school because that is a fairly decisive time as far as potential careers go, since that is often when people will choose, or not choose, to take math and and hard science classes that will open the doors to technical programs at university.
Another stumbling block is how much the communication style that prevails in technical cultures differs from what girls are taught. It's not that it's worse, or better, but it's different, and takes some getting used to if it's not native to you, and for most women, it isn't.
That said, although I have encountered obstacles to studying and working in CS, they've all been worth overcoming for the fun and awesomeness that I have every day. I wouldn't trade what I have today for the chance to be a popular girl in high school, ever.
As for some guy above saying female programmers don't make good wives...boo hoo hoo: cry me a fucking *river*. Despite the fact that I get paid more money that my parents make to do what, to me, is playing with fun ideas and toys, work with insanely intelligent people, come and go as I please, get paid to travel and go to conferences, have such wonderful jobs offers that I agonize about what to do about them and don't have to wear anything else but a t-shirt and shorts to work, I feel *utterly* *unfulfilled* by the fact I am unfeminine and unsuitable to be some illiterate luser's wife. Yeah, right.
Nuts. Just when I thought everyone stopped whining about the womenfolk and their not liking computer stuff enough, some other people dig this idea's rotting corpse up, offer no nothing new -- no real insight at all, and even widen the gender gap by taking extra steps to get women. People do what they want to. Women aren't dumb. I'm sure they are well aware computers exist, and if they want to use them, I'm sure they know the steps to take to find them. Programs like this make me want to vomit.
Hey, have a nice one, guy.
Anywho, just FYI.
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----
"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he hid Piglet's mangled corpse.
I just had the funniest mental image of a naked, wet guy running into the computer lab shouting 'Eureka!'. (Or however you spell that.)
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Like most kids I know, I was given the toys I wanted. I don't know where people get the idea that parents influence kids by giving them gender-biased toys. Parents give kids the toys kids want or the kids complain.
Nearly every time I have heard of attempts to make a crossover toy it has failed miserably. Anybody remember "My Buddy", the doll for boys? It was a horrible failure.
No, but it does reflect a gender difference. Males are drawn to games that simulate the primitive hunting instincts. Girls are not.
Do you honestly believe that game companies are intentionally ignoring this potential market??? The game business is incredibly competitive, and 90% of games flop when they hit the market. There's no way that game companies would intentionally not target a huge potential market like girls.
The reason you don't see more software for girls is:
1) Making a game that guys will like is easy. The formula is pretty simple. Nobody yet knows what girls will want.
2) At least in the days before the Internet exploded in size, there really wasn't a market for software for girls. Most girls just wouldn't sit down alone in front of a computer for hours.
Not to stupid girls, but to relatively smart people only because they're girls.
In my university program there were 3 girls in a class of about 30. One girl got a scolarship that was given out to "a female from XXX county in the Engineering Physics program". She was the only female in the program, so she didn't even have to compete to get the scolarship. If, however, the scolarship had been to the top student from that county there's a very good chance she would not have received the scolarship.
Do you have references for this? I can only speak from personal experience, but when I was a toddler, I had barbie dolls. My friends and I (we were all about 5 then) would play rough and tumble outside, practice our Mr. T imitations, etc. Then my mother gave us barbie dolls to play with, instead of GI Joes or transformers. After a few minutes, we were all playing with the dolls and their outfits, playing house...
That's why I'm interested in the studies you mention: are the kids examined the same sort of ADD-afflicted, neglected maniacs who like pro wrestling, or was the sample properly selected?
--
Change is inevitable.
Progress is not.
> just curious - what is the age ogf those female > geeks?
Most are under 30. We tend to hire straight out of college. The female department heads are older, of course, 40s-50s.
Well, using *that* logic, you could just as easily say:
"Losers whine about 'racism' because even though they have an unfair advantage due to affirmative action, they've still failed to make anything of themselves."
I think you miss the point that we should not tolerate discrimination based upon race/gender/etc., in *any* form. This is a sword that cuts both ways. You can't have "affirmative action" while being against racial discrimination, without being hugely hypocritical. Affirmative action *is* racial discrimination, the only difference being the target of the discrimination, and that it is government-sanctioned. Two wrongs don't make a right.
In Hong Kong for example, there are a lot of female programmers. At the place where i worked this summer, half of the programmers were prolly female. I don't think one should localize the problem around female 'programmers', the whole US culture seems to deter women from any technically, scientifically oriented subjects. The central question shouldn't be just 'why are so few programmers female', instead, a more general question should prove more fruitful, i.e. one can't encourage more females to be programmers, while at the same time pay no attention to the cultural environment which deter them from doing mathematics, physics, and etc...
I don't think there's anything to get worked up over. If you're a female interested in medicine, CS, astronomy, whatever geeky career, and you have the drive, you'll do it no matter what.
I'm really sick of the media buzz-word of the year, "mentor". Who says if you're female you should have female mentors?
Whenever I've had the pleasure of working with male geeks, I learned tons, shared my skills, and had a great time. I really don't see why people think guys are so intimidating.
BTW, I've attended some techie-girl clubs... they suck! They're so pre-occupied in female-empowerment that actual geeking-out and teaching never comes up.
Nitrozac
As a female who is a programmer, and who is :(
involved in the open source/free software/geek
community on a day to day basis, I have to say
I'm getting kind of sick of seeing the same
things over and over again. One of the things
I see most often is ill-conceived affirmative
action intended to encourage women into technical
fields, often doing more harm than good. I mention this because I think CMU's
efforts in this case are *not* ill-conceived and
I want to make it clear that I'm not just saying
that because I'm female yada yada yada. As far
as I can tell from the very short and shallow
article, CMU seem to be doing the right things.
They're not setting arbitrary quotas, they're
just getting out there and selling the course in
places where women happen to be listening. They're not changing to course to fit the women,
but rather are pointing out the applicability of
the subject matter to a wide range of fields
(many of which just happen to appeal more to women). So it will be interesting to see how it
all turns out. I suppose it's unlikely that
they'll post followup stories, though
If anyone's interested, there's an article I wrote
a few weeks ago which you can read at
http://netizen.com.au/~skud/articles/c hick2/
about female geeks, how to encourage them, and
whether we actually want more of them in the
Open Source/Free Software community.
K.
I think a lot of males have no idea what it is like to have your friends from elementary school suddenly turn into idiots in middle school. Yes, it's good because the number of academic competitors decreases, but I find it very hard to relate to many of them. I do have friends but when it comes down to computers or just technology, their only thought is "AOL" and "chat" I haven't experienced as much discouragement but my teachers often tend to ask the boys in another room for help with technical problems even when I'm right next to them. Of course, those boys are all some of my best friends.
In my family, I'm the one who is the most computer literate and both my parents work with computers for their jobs. My brother learns mostly from me.
--- "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Ben Kenobi, 'Return of the Jedi'
Ellen Ullman
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Stephen Molitor steve_molitor@yahoo.com
As others have stated before, assuming that 50/50 will make everything alrightfor men and women is simply... stupid. People, be it geeks or jocks, are each socialized to be part of their gender culture.
Its happened before and it'll happen again. Females will break into whatever field they like. Keep your "men are made for this, women are made for that" argument for the 19th century.
Putting out a notice that this or that school is 'safe' for females is a nice gesture, but essentially meaningless. If there isn't a market to attract in the first place why bother?
Proposals to somehow make women love tech in high school sounds a lot like mind control to me.
"Yes, we will mold them at an early age." Sorry, everyone has the right to be typical - look in the mirror geeks.
Not that I'm pulling a half assed psuedo-social commentary on WHY men do this and women do this. If you could explain all the effects on culture for each gender you probably would have better things to do than post here.
The worst part is how most posts end with "Now I'm gonna get some." Sad guys, really sad.
I am male.
I am a geek.
And you seem to - SUCK!
Damn. I don't care whether a girl is computer interested or not - she does not even have to look like a model or so. If I like her then I like her - simple, isn't it?
- root 66
-- I love the smell of Blue Screens in the morning.
I wish I had spent more time on spelling. I'm so proud of technological achievements, but I can barely spell my own name! How do you teach yourself to spell so much later in your life?
I am pondering why I am not a female CS geek. I know that I could easily be a CS geek if I desired to be so, but I lack that desire. I have had a computer since I was 4 or 5 (a Vic 20 :) and I had computer class with logo once a week throughout elementary school. My parents encouraged me to play with computers as well as read and ask questions (they bought me multiple books on programming in basic before I was 10). I'm even comfortable with cryptic UNIX commands (even if I forget them half the time, that's what man is for :). However, I completely failed to become a hacker (at least in the computer sense). I am a geek-in-training of neuropsychology.
I suspect that this might be a little wider than simply "females don't like to program". CS has to compete with other sciences for females like me who enjoy scientificness. I would be interested to see if this isn't a greater issue of females not into science rather than females not into programming, as I suspect.
"Any sufficiently advanced form of Magic is indistinguishable from Technology." - Gnomish Technomancer
Well, I'm sorry I didn't carry this post out with more elegance...;]
;]
As for the stereotype of coke-bottle glasses and highwater pants...the community I live in is backward enough to still have that mindset around. I live in South Dakota in a small hickish community, and many people think a Pentium (as in P5) is incredible technology.
As for getting excited about fitting the description? Hey, I don't have a life.
And I couldn't care less what the prep snots think. They think perl is a color of nail polish.
Can't sleep, the clowns will eat me...
your website is odd.
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
At this moment in my life, I work in a completely male dominated job. I work in forestry in western Canada. Where men think they are men.. and women prove them wrong. Ive slaved 10-12 hours a day, proving I can cut it, pushing along side better qualified men.. and less qualified. But, I can do the job, and I have always wanted to. Ive came across alot of rednecks who believe I should be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant, and not doing what I do.. but I do it. My graduating class for Forestry had 3 women out of a class of 60 graduate..(a few women dropped out in the first year)
.02 canadian cents..
But Im through with forestry, the pay is great, but heck, Im getting old, and cant see myself being a bush monkey for the rest of my life...so now I choose CS. Not because I feel the need to prove myself. Ive done that already, but because it interests me...as it probably does many other women..But..the hardest thing, male or female, is getting started. Perhaps men have more ambition in that department, I really dont know. Lifestyles still leave the burden of taking care of yourself more on men. Its not as 'strange' to see a women not working, but a man is considered a bum. This point has little to do with CS precisely, but that occupation desc. is included in there.
Women can and do have the smarts for it, we just dont always know it.
Thats my
Its better to die on your feet than to have lived on your knees.
I think your brain is getting a bit spongy. Need proof, just look at the choices that you use to illustrate your point. The ABA? The NFL?
Note: I don't mean all geek-guys by this (I've known my share, and they generally had more manners than this one)
To the girl this AC was posting about -- he's right, you seem pretty cool (Linux, band, pix), but don't take his shit too seriously.
-Andra ---------------------
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Erotic is using a feather, kinky is using the whole chicken.
Furthermore, a question: Why does the woman of your dreams HAVE to be a computer geek?
It's the ideal that counts. Have you ever seen Ally McBeal? There was an episode where this woman dreamed of a guy so real that she felt like she was cheating on her husband and divorced him (because he wasn't the ideal.) Most of the fascination lies in the dream, the reality always leaves much to be desired. It's the dreams that drive us. And given that that's a cheezy line, I'll back it up with the pragmatic, you have to have someone to put at the top of your scale so that you have some relative absolute to work from.
It's all about being able to have a relatively decent conversation with a female over coffee, and she being a geek femme able to converse on the merits of mmapped i/o would make that conversation more than decent.
Anyway, I'm sure that if such a woman as exhibited the ideal (so poetically described as a Linus-Natalie Portman half-breed) existed, most computer nerds (myself included) wouldn't stand a whit of chance anyway.
Nathan.
People who quote themselves bug the crap out of me -- Me.
I think that this so-called 'gender gap' in computer sciences has a lot to do with personality, rather than gender. Many people who code for a living or play around with computers are by nature solitary, self starting types who can care less about the social pecking order or who said what to whom. Most Western women are not raised to do that- they're taught to be malleable 'nice girls' and be sociable. (Guess I missed that 'class' as a girl!)
That said, there may be something to the growing trend of teaching girls and boys seperately. In an all-female environment, girls will play with computers a lot more- mostly because there aren't any aggressive boys pushing them out of the way or ridiculing their way of learning things.
It is tough being female in a mostly male career field- but I have been 'playing with the boys' for 20 years. Some of the more boorish ones have made my life miserable- but their spouses and girlfriends can be much worse!
I look at the whole thing this way: This is a career field that takes brains, not brawn, and women can apply themselves and succeed in it as well as the guys. My main word of advice for programmers of either gender is this: Treat your colleagues the way you would like to be treated.
'Artificial intelligence' is anything a computer couldn't do 5 years ago.
Geek guys *wish* there were more geek girls out there. It is exactly the opposite of what you say. The fact that there are fewer female techies than male ones is a constant source of frustration for us geeky guys. It means we have to either compete for the few geek girls, which is a very oversaturated 'market' or we have to try to find that rarity among rarities: a non-geek who doesn't mind being around geeks. (That's rare whether you are talking women or men).
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
well, yeah, that too :)
For a moment, let's consider the opposite question. Don't ask "Why don't more women program?", ask "Why do all these men program?".
I think the answer goes something like this: Most men who become geeks, computer nerds, programmers, warez dorks, etc start out as the "unpopular loner" or quasi-loner in junior-high. For whatever reason, some guys are "popular" and some are the "outsiders". The outsiders don't have lots of friends, don't have a reputation, don't have full social calanders, just lots of empty evening with themselves. The computer is a natural companion, even though it's a difficult friend to get along with. It crashes, hangs, gives weird errors, it barks, it drools, it sleeps above the covers....
I digress.
But seriously, how often has your school jock or ladykiller also been a a computer geek? I imagine it happens everynow and then, but not often.
So why don't women outsiders get into computers as much? Not being a woman, I can't really say. Maybe women are better at socializing and don't ever fall so low as to spend lonely nights in front of the cruel glowing screen. Maybe they're all smart enough to realize that programming is really just a cruel and unusual punishment dragged out until you're 35, when you become unhirable, something that us dumb guys don't realize until it's too late!
If any genuine women outsiders out there want to comment on the behaviors and activities of the female outcast, feel free to fill in the blanks!
P.S. I'm not fealing sorry for myself for one second, given the chance I wouldn't trade my life with a "more popular" one no matter what! It's a lonely road to geekdome, but I wouldn't pick any other one!
P.P.S. In my computer engineering classes at Case Western, out of a class of 120 or so, I remember there being about 5 girls. They all sat togeather, in the front row.
i forgot about those pics!
time to clean out the directory!
After reading all the comments people made, I started to wonder how many people who read Slashdot are females? So here's a poll idea:
:-) :-)
Do you consider yourself:
1. A Male Geek
2. A Female Geek
3. A Male non-Geek
4. A Female non-Geek
5. None of the above
6. Jar Jar sucks (sorry, had to throw it in
Matt
"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
I don't know much about computers, but i know i like them. Most of my friends are hackers, crackers, or whatever else you want to call them... all the computer suave are guys. All of my guy friends are supportive and have offered to help and teach me things about the computer, none of them have discouraged me in any way, shape, or form. None of the girls at my school give me funny looks and scoff at me when i carry a computer book. In fact, they often ask me questions about some things. None of the peers at my school have prevented me from liking computers.
:-) :-) Ok, i think i've said enough now, hehe.
"They figure if they so much as do more than point-and-click, they'll end up having to date a skinny nerd weirdo with coke-bottle glasses, high-water pants and dental problems. No, they want to hang around with the athletic guys."
Where did you get this from? *L* No one at my school is afraid to touch computers, and yes, this includes females! Btw, every guy and girl i know that is at least somewhat computer literate is (very) attractive... No coke bottle glasses, high-water pants, dental problems, etc. If you ask me, that image was smashed quite a while ago.
I, too, am still in high school. Eventually, when i have money, i'll learn to build a computer and install Linux. For the record, I have been wanting to major in CS ever since 6-7th grade.
Basically, what i want to say is:
Everyone keeps saying that nothing is happening and we need to do something, but I think something is already happening. I think we're in the middle of a major change. (And it's for the better.) Who cares if the sciences are still male-dominated? At least women are getting better chances of surviving and being accepted.
And one more thing... Whether or not people encourage me, i'm probably going to go into CS anyway. People think we always need to encourage others, but this is not so (not for me anyhow). When i was in 8th grade, i was one of two girls in metal shop. At the time, i hung out with the 'skater' type guys and one day girls on skateboards came up into a discussion. One of the guys (who i wasn't very fond of) said that girls should skateboard, it was a guy thing. Talk about reverse psychology, i got me a skateboard and proved him wrong. I still skateboard to this day, and people tell me i don't suck. It was somewhat encouraging when i heard him say that girls couldn't skateboard because i wanted to prove him wrong. I don't know if this applies to anyone else, but that's how i think.
p00p d00d b00b
i guess i commend you on finding those pics, i kinda forgot about them, so im not really upset that you saw them, hey, its a free web, but im just kinda embarrassed that it hit a /. posting...
*blush*
Whoo! Ya hit it right on the head. That drove me nuts. Of course, I went to a state school. I hope that real schools aren't in quite as bad shape.
My favorite classes were the ones where the prof would basically just barrel headlong through the course, not stopping for the lamers who hadn't learnt what they were supposed to in prereqs. They were almost universally unpopular, because most of the people in my school's CS program didn't like to work. Hell, most of them didn't have their own computers. *sigh*
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
Maybe females are less profitable computer programmers because they are not as likely to stay up all night?
There's more truth to this than you might think. I, personally, don't care for the vast majority of female computer programmers. I am not sexist (my wife is an advertising exec and makes twice as much as I do), but in my experience women programmers are not nearly as efficient as male programmers. Case in point:
Several years ago I was hired by a "new" software company that was just making the transition from a garage-based operation to a fully legitimate company. When they hired programmers, they did everything possible to get a fair mix in their employees. Male, female, white, black, asian, and hispanic...they were all represented in the programming staff. Well, it wasn't long before problems started developing with the women.
First it was the hours. The company paid us extremely well, but expected us to work our asses off for it. Sixteen hour days were the norm, and the women didn't care for it. They objected to the highest management, and we were ordered to cut our workdays to 12 hours max. The women still objected, and were given permission to leave after working 8 hours. Their objections were fair (they had to pick up their kids, they had to make dinner for their families, they wanted to spend time with their kids, etc.), but because of this they didn't get nearly as much work done as the men.
The next step was predictable. Time came for promotions and raises...and the men got FAR more than the women. To me, and the rest of the male programmers, this was fair. We did more work and we got a greater reward for it. To the women it was discrimination, and after hiring a lawyer to look into it the company relented and gave them equal raises. But that was the beginning of the end. By the end of the following year, all of the women had left the company and no new women were ever hired.
I can't blame women for being poorly suited to programming, but it doesn't change the fact that most of them are. They have other priorities that, to them, are more important than their work, and rightly so. But there are certain sacrifices that employers expect, that many women aren't prepared to make.
Note: To be entirely fair, I have met several unattached women with no family or responsibilities who were very well suited to programming. But they are very rare and, presumably, will end up married and no longer suited to the job.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
It looks like I'll be going into Electrical Engineering with perhaps a joint major in CS. Hopefully at MIT, but I might end up applying to CMU as well if not Waterloo (where I'm already staked out, hah).
~~~NO CARRIER~~~
A number of geek girls have responded on this topic. For those of you still in school, I just want you to know that not all IT shops obey the stereotypes that we've seen mentioned on this topic.
:)
I work at a S&P 500 utility in Florida. We have an in-house IT staff of several hundred. I'd say that roughly 30-40% are female. Half of the department heads are female, and our acting CIO is female. And these women aren't stuck in the touchy-feely areas either. We have female C programmers, Unix admins, Oracle DBAs, web programmers, etc., etc. Right now my own team doesn't have any females, but that's unusual. At one point it was about 70% female.
So what's the point? Just that these notions that women "can't do" the techie stuff are baloney. Some of the sharpest programmers I've known are women.
As to "encouraging" women to go into CS, I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not sure that -anyone- should be "encouraged" to go into CS. It's a very difficult field. Not because of the smarts required; plenty of fields require that. No, because of the commitment and dedication required. The field moves so fast; learning is constant. I think if you're not at least somewhat "driven" to be constantly learning about new technology, on your own time, then this is not the field for you. I've seen a number of young people burn out and leave the field (or worse, stay on and just become obsolete and incompetent) once they realized that graduating from college wasn't the end, but rather the beginning of their learning.
But if you're driven, whether male or female, hang in there, because we need you!
You mean, I assume, Grace Murray Hopper.
After reading all these comments, what I want to know is, what is it all you boys are afraid of?
Being outprogrammed by a GIRL? Grow up.
...one of the first Woman admirals.
She just invented the compiler, that's all;-)
Not to mention 50% of my CS professors...
I didn't read the article, but I have to say something. IMHO, "Trying to add memory to your computer" is a good thing not to try, regardless of gender, unless you are at least fairly deep into computers. Do you know the size, speed, parity, EDOness, feature-du-jour of your [SD]IMMs? I don't, and I built one of my machines from scratch!
To go with the gender analogy, I could see a similar note not to do your own RAM in Car and Driver or Popular Woodworking.
--The basis of all love is respect
Perhaps you might consider that females are socialy more 'group- oriented' , and do not generally wish to take up an interest which, if they were male, might at least proffer upon them some element of "coolness", but as a female, totally ostrasizes them from the group of both male programmers and 'normal' people. At least in high school, which is where most CS majors seem to get their start.
It's not that much easier for men in this respect.
At the risk of exhuming the hellmouth stories, geeks both male and female are generally ostracized from "normal" society.
As to which sex can cope better, I will leave that up to biology/psychology majors.
I do, however, resent the comment about female programmers being ostracized by male programmers.
I treat all programmers the same. Anyone who can code a decent program is at the top of my books.
The only difference with female programmers is that I'm much more likely to ask one to marry me =)
And people wonder why I'd NEVER send my kids to public school...
Anyway, I'm sure that if such a woman as exhibited the ideal (so poetically described as a Linus-Natalie Portman half-breed) existed, most computer nerds (myself included) wouldn't stand a whit of chance anyway.
;) She would merely select the sweetest, least neurotic, most sensible geek guy and have many many Linus Mini-Me children.
Not true. If she really did have the mind of Linus, she'd be smart enough to see how sweet a lot of geek guys can be.
"Mini Me, you complete me..."
BTW -- I'd like to claim the parent post to your reply as mine. I swear I was logged in and it put me down as an AC. Ack!
Lynnaea
muse@rice.edu
The principle of aggrandizement is the fundamental law of every government. - Frederick the Great
1. There have always been more male programmers than female programmers (except for the first few years of the computer era when the hardware was guy's stuff and programming was seens as a woman's job, just like all the human calculators of the pre-computer era were female). Online porn is something of the last 5 years.
2. If you're online for porn you have no time to learn to program.
3. There are as many woman online as men.
Two years before I became a female Stanford CS major, I knew little about programming computers. Not until my mom got a PPP account (and configured our Mac's TCP/IP! I'm still proud of her..) did I begin to experiment with HTML, because I had to to express myself. Females learn programming because they have a project, not just for the sake of tinkering.
Anyway, I wrote a research paper for my high school senior project, Women in Computer Science, which has a bunch of internet background material references in the Research section. Enjoy.
a prophet on the burning shore
Finding porn (or anything else, for that matter) on the internet does NOT require programming skill, or even much "techno-savvy". Just point-click-and-drool on the spam that arrives in your mailbox.
--
Seeing is believing; You wouldn't have seen it if you didn't believe it.
Whoa! hang on there!
So what you are saying is that because women in general are taking care of kids & family, they are ill-suited to be programmers?
Please explain your logic here.
How do domestic responsibilities affect someone's ability to program?
First it was the hours. The company paid us extremely well, but expected us to work our asses off for it. Sixteen hour days were the norm, and the women didn't care for it.
16 hour days??? Are you insane????
I certainly wouldn't want to work for your company.
(they had to pick up their kids, they had to make dinner for their families, they wanted to spend time with their kids, etc.), but because of this they didn't get nearly as much work done as the men.
The next step was predictable. Time came for promotions and raises...and the men got FAR more than the women. To me, and the rest of the male programmers, this was fair. We did more work and we got a greater reward for it.
I see... so you expected to be adequately compensated because you willingly deprived your children of a father during the most needy part of their lives?
I can sure see how far off-base the women were for complaining about this situation.
There is a reason why the law protects the 8 hour work day. Happy marriage.
I can't believe I actually defended you guys in my earlier posts.
Hear, hear!
I'm tired of being in the minority at work.
As a side note, I just had a discussion with my mother-in-law, and was quite suprised to find that she agreed with me. She became quite a talented programmer during her career from 1974-1984, working for companies like IBM, Apple, and others. She left her career in 1984 to take care of her family. She told me that as the computer industry developed, the demands on programmers grew greater and greater. More and more, programming and family became mutually exclusionary. To excel in programming, you must be willing to give up a real family life. She wasn't willing to do that, and neither are most women.
The truly sad thing is that it is the money of the industry that is attracting these women. What many people (men and women alike) fail to look at is WHY our pay is so high. We are EXPECTED to work long hours and to put our jobs ahead of all else. For people willing to do that, the reward is high. People that aren't willing to do that wont last, and don't succeed. My greatest fear is that a large influx of women into the industry will cause employers to rethink the way programmers work, and cut our hours to placate all of the women. While this may sound like a good thing, it will cost us dearly. We WILL lose the high wages we're accustomed to. We're paid a lot simply because we're willing to put our jobs ahead of all else and work long hours. If we lose that, if programming becomes "just another job", then programmers wages will decline dramatically. Think about it.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
For the International Olympiads in Informatics, we Dutch require our team to consist of two boys and two girls. The girls are selected from the 2 or 3 female contenstants that take part in the prelimary rounds. (And of course the boys from the hundreds of male contestants.) If you want to see what happens at the international competitions, read this and search for "logo" and "zero points".
No wonder we Purdue(west lafayette) CS gets less females this year. Send them back damn it!
I suppose encouragement and role models will help with some people. It didn't help for me, but maybe since I'm male I had some innate ability to not be thrown by that. As far as computers went, I received no encouragement and had no role models.
I went through school picking and choosing what I wanted to learn (And boy did my grades suffer for it). When it came to computers, I learned outside of the curriculum (I didn't take CS in highschool. I snuck some of the microprocessor and assembly manuals from the electronics shop and read them on the bus and during my boring school subjects).
I'm probably not the same as most programmers out there. I'm probably not the same as most people out there either. Then again, most people wouldn't write CPU emulation cores in their spare time.
Even with that support, it was still difficult to be an intelligent girl interested in science and technology.
It's difficult being intelligent. Period.
I'm sure you must realize just how annoying it is trying to hold a technical/political/whatever discussion with the general riff-raff who's only experience with books amounts to leveling the sofa.
(Recently a VB instructor commented to me that as well as being one of his "best" students, I was one of his "prettiest"... what an effective way to reduce me to a superficial level!!!)
Ok, this is just plain lame. I'd have decked him one.
Better yet, you should have decked him one. If he complained, just tell him you're evening the score (sexual harassment and all).
-- A true hack's computer never has the case on.
For a counter example, I only had to show that there was someone who would want to be the only X for any room. I showed that (I guess that in order to be complete, I should specify a room -> my bedroom).
If I was in a situation where I was naked in a train station, a police station, a bar, or a jail cell, for what ever reason, I do not think I would want other naked men there with me. I think that the word "most" holds. I cannot think of a situation where I would want to be in a room with other naked men.
I guess that if I was in a room with a rapist, I would want there to be a better looking naked man in the room to act as decoy as I made my cowardly escape (or hit said rapist over the head with a 2x4).
oh yegods! its not /that/ bad! no harm done, no harm taken! as i appreciate your formal apology, and if *you* wish to communicate with me further, email me (thats why its there, you know, if i was uncomfortable with emails i would be an AC too.), and from one geek to another: im glad you said something about it, because goddess only knows how long other people have been going there *nervous giggle*..
but seriously, i was not offended, and yes, i am open for communication.
Thanks.
So we see where old school meets new school.
Those old stereotypes no longer apply: this generations computer industry workers are not the forlorn lonely social zeroes of yesteryear, and I would think that more of us would be bitter about the use of such depricated ideas.
Furthermore, why not geek love geek instead of geek love brain-dead waif or geek love brain-dead jock? Once again the type of mate you seem to idealize only exposes the shallowness of your person.
bullshit !
Women for the most part don't like technology.
It is true and you know it. How many female friends you have that share the same interest in computers as you do ?
As for the "compliment", yeah, there is room for debate over its appropriateness and if I am overreacting in feeling that it was inappropriate.
You are not overreacting. It was inappropriate.
The fact is that he is a teacher. His only interest in the matter should be with her mind.
I'd have felt pretty uneasy if my teacher had said "You are not only the smartest, but the most handsome as well". I'd feel even more uneasy if he was a guy =)
- little girls *are* given Barbies and baby dolls, and boys are given mechanical toys. Girls are expected to be quiet and feminine, while boys are encouraged to get dirty and take apart the toaster.
...
There is a lack of good software for girls right now
These two sentences seem contradictory.
In the top one you are suggesting that girls should not be raised in the stereotypical "girl" sense.
In the second sentence you are suggesting that computer games should be tailored to match the stereotypical "girl".
Here are some interesting questions raised:
- Are girls by nature more nurturing, or is it purely of environmental influence?
- Are dolls more appropriate toys for girls?
- Are girls really into the ruff n tumble play to the same degree that boys are?
When I was in gradeschool, the boys' favorite lunchtime game was war, using sticks for guns, and watching the lunchtime fight, if there was one.
The girls' favorite game was gossiping about the latest events (i.e. which girl everyone hated now) and playing dolls.
Play tended to merge somewhat in the later grades, though.
I thought it might be useful for you guys to read this excerb from Appendix B of the Hacker Dictionary (aka Jargon File):
Hackerdom is still predominantly male. However, the percentage of women is clearly higher than the low-single-digit range typical for technical professions, and female hackers are generally respected and dealt with as equals.
In the U.S., hackerdom is predominantly Caucasian with strong minorities of Jews (East Coast) and Orientals (West Coast). The Jewish contingent has exerted a particularly pervasive cultural influence (see Food, above, and note that several common jargon terms are obviously mutated Yiddish).
The ethnic distribution of hackers is understood by them to be a function of which ethnic groups tend to seek and value education. Racial and ethnic prejudice is notably uncommon and tends to be met with freezing contempt.
When asked, hackers often ascribe their culture's gender- and color-blindness to a positive effect of text-only network channels, and this is doubtless a powerful influence. Also, the ties many hackers have to AI research and SF literature may have helped them to develop an idea of personhood that is inclusive rather than exclusive -- after all, if one's imagination readily grants full human rights to future AI programs, robots, dolphins, and extraterrestrial aliens, mere color and gender can't seem very important any more.
--
Geek chicks are so few, that in my school, the girls get their pick of the hoardes of geek guys. So, unfortunately, most of us geek guys have to get our lovin' elsewhere. I for one would encourage MANY more women, one's with nice cute butts, to get into computing.
-Ben
-Ben
bensmith@biz1.net
I'm nearing thirty now.
I'm nearing 25.
I hope that things have improved, but I hold out few hopes.
Things don't improve until you improve them.
I was a good student at school. I took chemistry, physics and biology at A-level. The usual trio was two of those and maths.
I had a C to C+ average.
Hey! come to think of it, I learned C, then C++.
Coincidence?
The head of physics was all for girls doing physics - provided they didn't hold back the boys.
Yes, and?
In another science department, the newly-recruited female head of chemistry received trouble from some of the male staff (one of whom thought he should have had the job).
If someone had my job, I'd let them know about it. Nothing new here...
Despite it being totally illegal, her school split by gender: girls did needlework and boys did woodwork. No choice in the matter.
So what did you do about it?
Let me guess.. NOTHING!
I remember being shunted out of the way when the school computer arrived, despite knowing more than the others did about how to work the thing, because I was female.
So what did you do about it?
Let me guess.. NOTHING!
And it pisses me off bigtime to see this "Well, girls and boys are just different, that's all" crap
And it will persist in the vacum of evidence.
What are you gonna do about it?
jokes about "We could do with more women, especially pretty ones" aren't funny.
Okay, I'll give you that one.
Mind you, some of the geek girls did say they were available...
So tell me, what have you done to better the world in your life?
What have you done to get where you want to go and do what you want to do? You certainly won't get there whining and complaining about everything.
You've done enough talking, now DO SOMETHING.
My life wasn't a cakewalk. I had my share of problems in the world. I VERY RARELY received any encouragement from anybody. My mother tried, but she suffered from severe depression. My father was always detached and never showed approval.
I never took CS in highschool, nor was I encouraged to do so. I even had a teacher deliberately avoid me because I asked him some questions about C.
And yet somehow I became a success.
In grade school, I was told I couldn't use certain programs (which were password protected) on the school computers because they were for the older kids. So I hacked the passwords.
In highschool, the electonics course just plain SUCKED. So I swiped the microprocessor manuals from the book rack and learned assembly. (I think I still have some of them around too =)
The library computer had a modem but it was protected (Anyone remember Integrity?).
So I hacked in and used the modem to dial into the local university's access ports (because they were too stupid to put in logins) to get onto the net.
It's called ambition, babe. If you had any, you'd have overcome all of these obstacles instead of complaining about them.
I fail to see why there should be an even gender distribution in computer science, or any profession. The simple fact that the current distribution is the way it is would be sufficient proof of a general difference in aptitude by gender.
Why is the american baseball association not 50 percent female? Why is the NFL all male?????
Artifically inducing an equal gender distribution via encoragement, gender based discrimination, or bias in favor of a single gender at an institional level is the beginning of a subtle and damaging trend in the quality of the profession.
Communism also seeks an artifical distribution, although it is of wealth. Communism has also proven itself to be less efficient then democracy and capitalism - which are both based on freedom and equality. Somehow, the idea the there should be the same number of males and females in the computer science field strikes me as of a communist nature. The reality is that there is not, so why should there be?
I know that there are many very skilled and talented females in the CS world, and even more skilled and talented males. I cannot but feel that it is discriminatory and wrong to offer encouragment to one gender over another.
I'm not sure I quite follow you...
If you carry out a program, you can do statistical analysis to measure the results.
A quota is a pre-determined amount that must be met.
Who determines the quota? Someone who professes to know the "correct" amount that "should be".
And as we all know in the real world, once a quota is in place, it must be met, even if it doesn't match reality.
Of course, if you are carrying out a political program, you would want to measure it's success.
I'm not criticizing the measurement.
I am criticizing the political program.
hah! well, it was said to us when we had our first departmental meeting and sign-up for classes..
"Congratulations! you are the first class to break the Female-To-Dave ratio.. there are more females than 'Daves' in this class!"
I kinda resent the comments about it's all just affirmative active taking play. It's not. Just talking with the other girls here, they have just as much of a CS background as the males.
I am just waiting for the day that the female thing isn't an issue. It is kind of uncomfortable.. at any predominantly engineering/science school, you're gonna get the same gender disparities, I suppose.
way to not read your post before sending it! Anyhow, I meant "offer nothing new." I had a mysterious "no" in there.
Hey, have a nice one, guy.
a perfect response. Thank you for putting it into words better than I ever could.
"The horse leech's daughter is a closed system. Her quantum of wantum does not vary."
How do domestic responsibilities affect someone's ability to program?
When you're sitting in front of a computer coding, it doesn't. When it comes to the actual skills involved in programming, I've met women that could code circles around me. BUT, when it comes to your definition of acceptable working conditions, there's a huge difference. When you must take care of a family, if you actually want to be involved in it, you lose your ability to excel at your job. When I was programming, I gave everything I had to the job in return for a huge financial reward. I was willing to make that sacrifice because I considered the reward to be worthwhile. Domestic responsibilities get in the way of that. If you can't devote whatever time is needed to the job, you shouldn't be doing it.
16 hour days??? Are you insane????
You know, I actually had to think long and hard before answering that one, and my answer is a definite maybe. The real question is, was it worth it for me to work 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, for $160k a year? For me, a college dropout who never took a CS class in his life and taught himself to code, the answer is yes. If that makes me nuts, so be it.
I see... so you expected to be adequately compensated because you willingly deprived your children of a father during the most needy part of their lives?
No. I didn't have any kids at the time. I now have two, and my family is more important to me, so I gave up programming. I now make $48k a year, a $112,000 pay cut, and work as a network administrator just so that I could spend time with my kids. I realized that I had a choice, a successful career as a programmer or a successful career as a father, and I chose the latter. I knew I couldn't continue programming so I gave it up and did something else.
There is a reason why the law protects the 8 hour work day.
The fact that you said this shows me that you missed the point of my entire post. People work long hours because they choose to work those hours. They want high pay, and they are willing to make the required sacrifices to get it. Employers are rewarding this with some of the highest wages in the country. If programming becomes an 8 hour a day job, that high pay will become a thing of the past. Companies will be forced to hire more programmers to get the jobs done, and thus be less inclined to pay as much. Alternately, they could accept longer development times, but that will cost them in profits. When profits suffer, they will want to cut expenses. Jobs and wages are usually the first thing on the chopping block. Finally, if an 8 hour programming day becomes the norm, tens of thousands of ex-programmers like myself are going to be interested in getting back into it, flooding the job market and driving wages even further down. I loved programming but I wanted a shorter workday. If the workdays get shortened, people like me will return in droves.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
Speaking as a professional female developer, I am very much agains affirmative action. I beleive I got this job on my merits alone and would hate to think I was part of some quota.
Nevertheless, I do think there is a need for some positive re-enforcement of the idea that, regardless of gender, a good programmer is a good programmer. My parents told me that my desire to do a Copmp Sci course at university was due to the fact that I was a "tomboy" and I would grow out of it. (I haven't yet) And my "A" level comp-sci teacher discouraged girls from taking his class as we "would not follow through and get jobs in the industry."
We need a few female ESRs and Linus Torvalds, something for us to aspire to. I'm certainly encouraging a female friend who is a gifted developer but going towards the Business Analysis route (because it is more "suitable" for a woman) not to think in such stereotypes.
As for us being better at the touchy feely, human interaction stuff... all my best friends are programmers or research comp scientists. What does that say about *my* social life!
im a female programmer!! I'm sorry, but an AC below just proved that you don't exist. Your brain's wired the wrong way, you see, so you're really just a figment of your own imagination. Either that, or you're a castrating, man-hating lesbian feminist taking a job away from a man somewhere -- a man who, while admittedly less competent than you, nevertheless "deserves" your job in some mystical way that nobody is quite able to explain. Heh. I think I'm going to spend a very pleasant afternoon flaming ditto-heads today.
perhaps if both men and women recognised the need to compromise when it comes to cleaning, cooking, looking after the kids, looking after the family in general, you would find that men and women would be able to acheive the same standards.
That's something women need to work out with their husbands, not their employers. I have nothing against women in programming if they are willing to make the same sacrifices as men. If a woman can get her husband to take more responsibility with the kids and allow her to work, great! If not, she shouldn't expect the job to change to fit her needs.
As it is, if you have a family why would you work 16 hours a day?! Or even 12 hours! Children are more important than a job!
I agree entirely, which is why I stopped programming when my children were born. Kids+serious programming just don't go together. It is possible to find 8 hour a day programming jobs that will allow you to balance work and family, but you'll be giving up the high pay that makes this job so desireable. Money or family, you can't have both in this job.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
Maybe my experiences have been particularly unusual, but half my computer course were female and the years below me also had a similar male/female split. In the company I'm currently working in has a large proportion of female programmers as well. I think the idea that computers are for men only has definitly gone the way of the Dodo.
Ha!
So what does this guy want? Let me guess - a nuclear physicist? A political investigative journalist? A photographer for National Geographic? Something tells me maybe not...
If being a programmer is enough to discourage morons like that, then thank my lucky start that I am a programmer.
Love to all the smart grrlz & to all the men who are sane & human enough to want a smart girl & not a stepford wife,
xx
Wench
No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.
When you must take care of a family, if you actually want to be involved in it, you lose your ability to excel at your job.
This was the exact reason why women were not allowed to work in any job in the past.
The problem is that you are confusing quantity with quality.
I realized that I had a choice, a successful career as a programmer or a successful career as a father, and I chose the latter. I knew I couldn't continue programming so I gave it up and did something else.
You and I must have completely different notions about a career in programming.
I am quite capable of working 8 hour days, get bonuses & payraises & promotions, and stay on top of the technology.
Mind you, the pay is not as high as in the sweatshops, but I'm in for a career, not a burnout.
If you can't devote whatever time is needed to the job, you shouldn't be doing it.
How much time must be devoted to a programming job?
Certainly not 16 hours. It wasn't that way in the past. There's nothing more time-critical about programming than there is about mechanical engineering, except for the fact that employers are noticing that people are willing to sacrifice their life for a few years in exchange for some quick bucks.
What I'm seeing these days is a tendancy for employers to demand more, faster, sooner!
We see software houses in a mad dash to get that damn product out the door, and guess what? Quality is decreasing.
Remember how stable Netscape used to be (1.1N)? Then along came IE and suddenly both are worse than useless as they enter a mad race against each other.
The fact that you said this shows me that you missed the point of my entire post. People work long hours because they choose to work those hours.
The point is that since the majority of the workers were willing to work 16 hour days, the rest were left out in the cold. Conform or get out, essentially. Choice no longer enters the picture.
The 8 hour workday was enacted to protect the quality of life of the workers.
Allowing this "choice" for 16 hour days undoes that.
Employers are rewarding this with some of the highest wages in the country. If programming becomes an 8 hour a day job, that high pay will become a thing of the past.
What this mentality does is force the family out of the picture.
When I start a family, I will not give them up for work. But, if the entire industry goes the way of 16 hour workdays, I won't be able to work as a programmer anymore.
Why should I have to sacrifice my livelyhood to some industrial revolution-era thinking?
My gf was badly burned by this. She grew up with Spectrums & stuff, and was into programming at an early age. However her school didn't believe that women could understand computers, and forbade her from taking CS lessons (Oh did I mention this is the same school who put someone with a 140+ IQ in a mental school for a year?).
:-)
There were allegedly several conversations at college that went like this..
"What do you want to do?"
"I want to work with computers."
"Oh it says here you can type. Have you considered doing secretarial work?"
"No, I want to work with computers."
"Ahh you mean word processor operator!"
"Aargh!" (hits head on desk) "No, I want to work with computers!!!"
etc...
Eventually she came out with a typing and administration qualification. Yeah. Loads of use.
I am now teaching her C, and she's really getting into hacking around with Linux. I'll try to bash a few heads to get her onto a CS course at college but I'm not hopeful really (realistically to do it properly she would have to start again at O & A levels and it would take about 8 years before she got a degree).
I get really angry at an education system that labels people then tries to force them into stereotypes. Anything that changes that (even slightly) is welcome.
Tony
(Apologies to all the US types who have no idea what O and A levels are, but I have no idea about your 'grade' system either, so we're even...
So.. were YOU involved in CS through campaigns like this, or did you just come of your own accord? I spent most of my childhood playing with computers because I was utterly fascinated with them. My sister didn't. Now she's done a conversion course to computer science "because it's where the money is". She hates it. There is no "proof" to make here, but anal comments like yours are nothing more than sexist fluff. Targetting particular genders is something that pornographers do.
I am all for schools encouraging females to enter CS programs, but the real steps IMO need to be taken with girls while they are young. In a lot of cases, the problems are not just that girls are not encouraged to experiment and play with computers/technology, but that they are discouraged (sometimes actively, sometimes subtly). Around Junior High seems to be a critical time for girls, determining whether they will have the self-confidence to succeed in what they want to do, or whether they will succumb to the popular ideal and submerge their own personality.
... yet. Unfortunately, that is not the case for a lot of women.
...
Girls also need more positive role models in science and technology. This has got to be one of the toughest things - society, as a whole, does not reward women who embark on a traditionally male-dominated career path. How many female instructors/professors have you witnessed in the physical sciences and in computer technology? This lack of role models is something that is rarely acknowledged as a problem, but has been shown to affect career choices of female students.
I am lucky - my parents encouraged me to do what I wanted, and to have confidence in myself. Even with that support, it was still difficult to be an intelligent girl interested in science and technology. Subtle prejudice from teachers ("But you're so good at English!!!") and peer pressure made my life difficult at times. I still find sometimes that my appearance is taken more seriously than my work (Recently a VB instructor commented to me that as well as being one of his "best" students, I was one of his "prettiest"... what an effective way to reduce me to a superficial level!!!)
Oooh, the rant must stop. But as one of the minority of female programmers here, I just have to mention that there is a lot of negative stuff that still affects females in non-traditional areas. I am lucky, most of the negative feedback I have had has been silly and petty, and hasn't limited my advancement
Sometimes I wonder if I *should* be encouraging females to go into CS/IT
YS
"Arrr! The laws of science be a harsh mistress." -- Bender
given the consideration once again that i am more concerned with the actual quality of my work, as oppose to the presentation, i think you have no argument, and, if you like giving such 'constructive commentary', why dont you consider a login? lest your works of genius, like the one above, go down in The History of Flaming Part IV unnamed (wouldnt that be a shame?).
As a male programmer, I went to University in a class with 49% women. While they're all working in the IT industry, I don't know how many of them are actually *programming*.
I'm also a musician, and find a lot of similarities: the creative aspect tempered with a need for technical proficiency. And I find a similar reaction from women when discussing the technicalities of either. They are just not interested. They can laugh about how they have no interest in it, but can talk about shoes for 2 hours. But they still do it.
There are, of course, some women who are interested. And let's never forget that the field of computer programming was created by a woman.
As for the very politically-correct assertation that the brains of women and men are the same, let me pose a hypothetical: if you're looking for someone to mind your kids, would your first choice be a man or a woman? Exactly. Of couse there are differences, the crime isn't in recognising this - it's in using it as a means to discriminate unfairly.
Vive la differance.
It`s not a matter of the women being willing to make the same sacrifices than the men. Think about it. Why did these women have to leave to look after the kids? Why weren`t their husbands doing it? Why was it the women who were expected to do all the childcare work?
The men aren`t having to sacrifice anything, because they expect the women to run around after them picking up the pieces.
Hmmm... I'm having trouble distinguishing between your argument and that of the other AC. Care to post some evidence yourself rather than just pointing out that the other AC didn't?
;)
It'll be much harder for folks to ignore the evidence if you'll post it!
Geeky modern art T-shirts
Wow. If getting to marry people like you is my alternative to being a spinster........
At any rate, trust me. Women programmers have NO trouble finding geek boys to date.
C'mon! You're making the rest of these boys looks bad!
'Sides, I think that those who don't wanna date a female programmer, or don't think that women should be encouraged to program, are actually afraid that women could prgogram just as well as they can.
And from what I've seen, the other chick programmers mop the floor with most the you guy programmers.
It's not "genetic" or taught. It's all about access to the toys. While most boys are getting tools, and Erector sets, girls are getting Barbie dolls and tea sets. How the heck is a girl supposed to know that it's ok to be a geek if she never gets the chance to see if she likes it! Sure, no on is telling us that we can't program. But no one is telling us that we can!
Anyways... enough of my rant.
-C.
It DOES have something to do with a lack of social skills which social behavior seems hard-wired into women's heads unlike men who can be solitary with no problems. Perhaps it stems from the time where men would leave the family to make money or kill an animal or whatever and return. Seriously I *WISH* there was something that could be done to have more women in the programming sector but they dont seem driven enough. Women arent usually out there to conquor the metal beast which is the PC. Men have evolved to CONQUOR animals in a hunter/gatherer environment. I just dont see it happening. What I seriously DO dislike though is the wannabe female hackers from AOL trying to impose their nazi-eske curse word censorship on irc channels. THAT I wont put up with.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
When I started work as a programmer back in 1979, the establishment had about 100 programmers and the male/female split was about 60/40.
How about...
Lady Ada Lovelace?
Capt. Grace Hopper?
Ann Winblad?
Brenda Laurel?
Pattie Maes?
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
> "trying to add memory to your computer" under a sidebar of 5 things *not* to try!
:-(
This was in the 50's, right?
This is just a bit crazy. If you were encouraged, fine, but don't encourage other people. If they WANT to be programmers, they'll be programmers. This sort of thing is just plain stupid. We're going to end up with a bunch of retarded programmers that will go work for MS and make even worse kernels to base ever worse OS's on. Don't take this as a sexist comment, I would say the same if the programming field was dominated by women and someone was "envouraging" men to program. If they want to program, they will. They'll be the good ones that go off and do nice things like alan cox. If they don't want to program, or weren't thinking about it until being persuaded, they'll probably be little morons and do stupid things like Stef from UF and end up borrowing code from "hello world"
Just my 3 or 4 cents...
---------------------------
---------------------------
Mine tried to discourage me from sending applications to CMU and UIUC because "I should go to a community college for two years and then get my degree from a local college."
He also tried to discourage my friend from majoring in music because "she probably wouldn't make it in music" (though he admitted he didn't know how good she was...)
It's a very painful idea that he shapes minds for a living...
-- Scream, Dracula, Scream!
I'm a guy, and there isn't enough social interaction for me in programming, either.
I think people develop their intellectual skills only as much as they need to in order to satisfy their emotional needs. It's almost always a last resort. I was a social outcast when I was a kid, and got into literature and computers to compensate for a lack of human interaction. It seems to me that girls are much less likely to be in this position. There's so much demand for the company of girls, just because they're girls, that most girls are likely to find plenty to keep them busy (parties, etc.) without having to resort to developing their minds.
--
I am a freshman CompE student. I graduated out of a 900 student Highschool. There were about 3 SERIOUS computer nuts in my class, all male. There were also about 20 peaple I would call computer capable, with about 2 being girls. The situation is about the same for the class that graduated ahead of me. The girls seamed to understand the "surface" elements of computers (point here, click here) but I never saw one of them intrested in the inner workings (Programing, etc..). Now just for the record, we had a 50/50 mix of male/femaile in both science and math. I dont know what the diffrence was. Our High School CS teacher was even a female. If there was anyone discouraging females from CS, it was the school councelers, and there piers.
Here's a URL for a wired story that discusses ENIAC's programmers.
m l
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/story/3711.ht
I think we can rule out "brains are wired wrong". I'd like to hear a good explanation because computer science seems rather gender independent to me. I'd certainly do whatever I can (probably very little) to make the field friendlier to women.
Jim
For anyone who thinks that women aren't discouraged from working as programmers, a quick look at many of the posts here should enlighten them as to why this environment can sometimes be hostile for females ... Interesting that the majority of these comments are from ACs!
YS
PS. It is nice to see the occasional non-sexist comment from the guys out there!
"Arrr! The laws of science be a harsh mistress." -- Bender
Why is the ABA and NFL all male? Because they don't hire women. Why don't they? Because there's no qualified women. Why aren't there any qualified women? Because there's very few women football programs in college or high school. Why not? Because it's just not done.
So... who knows how many great women football players they could get if they actively recruited women? We'll never know, since economic and cultural barriers make it all but impossible.
Looking at the average for a profession indicates a *statistical* relationship, not a *causal* relationship. NFL players aren't male because men are better football players, NFL players are male because the NFL recruits men.
I'm sure you could froth at the mouth about how women aren't as strong as NFL players, and how they're slower, blah blah blah. You can't compare the average woman to the average NFL player. Try comparing the average man to the NFL player.
You can't tell who would be great for a job just by looking at who normally occupies those jobs. (It would mean that white guys are *meant* to be in power, and that sounds too much like manifest destiny for me.)
Also, please leave the Red Baiting at home. It's great that you're a flaming Capitalist. Yeehaw. Moving on...
CMS is not actively recruiting women at the expense of men, they're tapping into a market that has gone untouched for too long. Isn't that what capitalism is all about?
It's not quotas, it's not affirmative action, it's not keeping the Man down. They just feel that females would bring a little something to the classes... and they're right.
So... big thumbs up for CMS!
-- I can't think of anything witty to put here. Sorry.
What's so depressing about it, other than they're wasting their time when the could be doing something they really love. In a couple of years, they'll be burned out, and will go back to school and get an MBA so they can be "where the money" is...that giant sucking sound is the number of open jobs.
James
When I was getting my CompSci degree at Eastern Michigan University (class of '94, 60%+ female majority at the 25,000 student campus), we tried to encourage more women to sign up for CompSci (all but 1-2 of the handful of existing women were older or foreign students). Invariably, they'd wrinkle up their noses and say "I don't like computers". Mind you, some of these women were in other hard sciences (chemisty, etc). It was rare for 400-level classes to have any women students.
Now that I've been in the working world for a few years, I've noticed a much greater number of women in the workforce than my experience at EMU would suggest (3 of the 6 programmers at my first job), tho a disproportionate number of them are 40-something and in management.
Dunno what to do about this. Don't really consider it a "problem", maybe an annoyance. Really can't figure out what the dropoff between 40-something and 20-something women in the field is all about.
i probably shouldn't even give this a response, but... what exactly are the requirements of being a "good wife"? while you may not want a programmer as a wife or girlfriend, there are plenty of guys who don't really care what a woman does for a living.
believe me, if you're a woman in the 1990's and you can't get a date, it's not because of your job. being a programmer probably hurts a man more in the dating scene than it does a woman (at least for student programmers, before the money starts rolling in).
It's much better to go out hunting for female progammers in order to have some certain percentage filled. Seriously thoughy, no one said anything about females taking programming jobs away from males. It was my understanding that there is a shortage in the field and employers are taking all they can get. You just made that thing about women taking jobs and guys being annoyed about it up. While I dont doubt similar things have been said by people in the past, it wasn't mentioned here and it doesn't speak highly of your character for bringing it up without a valid reason. Perhaps you just like to argue. Anyhow, happy random flaming. If you feel like shooting some my way, feel free to make stuff up and throw a few words in my mouth here and there. I'm sure I'll live
Hey, have a nice one, guy.
Two female computer science role models come to mind. First of all in the millionare category there is Ester Dyson, who really is one of the most respected pundits/Vulture Capialist types around. As for females who can code, there's Adelle Goldberg from back at PARC who was a major player in the creation of Smalltalk.
The role models are there, if people bother to look.
... lady Ada's time.
Ummm... I think your credibility would be enhanced by learning how to spell "hormones". It's kind of hard to pose as someone who's taken Bio 101 without that skill. But hey, maybe you just flunked all the papers...
Anyways, to debunk: the perception that men are tool-users whereas women sit around and cook is purely cultural. Women are just as adept at tool-making as anyone else. Stupid people will always be stupid, however, so don't talk to me about blondes and screwdrivers.
I have zero interest in most tools. I see them as things to use, not things to worship. Yet I'm a programmer. Hmmm...
If people who are interested in tools are more likely to be programmers, why are so many contractors, roofers, and other assorted builders not interesting in programming? Why is there a perception of computer people being social rejects with no practical skills?
Chalk it up to "hormons".
-- I can't think of anything witty to put here. Sorry.
I don't want to say anything about "Why Women Aren't Geeks". It seems everyone here has their own opinion (social, political, brain 'wiring', upbringing) and honestly all they are is factless opinions. The truth of the matter is that there simply are fewer Women Geeks.
Now I see this everywhere. The jobs I've worked, the computing clubs I frequent, even the close circle of friends I have. There are a few female geeks, and some of them are computer literate to a high level, but they are always outnumbered by the male geeks by a factor of 10.
And I don't think this has anything to do with the actual people I know. When there's an all night party, or a drinkup at the pub, or a campout, or a trip down the beach, or a video night, there is always a fair 50% representation of both genders. But when you have a LAN party you can count the number of females on one hand.
Now I think this is changing. I'm seeing more female geeks now than I used to. More girls are finding the games fun and joining in the LAN parties, or having "their turn" on the consoles when you're lounging on the couch. I reckon that the proportion of male/female geeks is starting to naturally balance out. So what worries me is that the next generation is going to churn out a higher proportion of female geeks, and that Carnegie Mellon is going to incorrectly think that they had anything to do with the increased numbers. This is bad science for a start (no control group), and it's going to lead to bad conclusions (race/gender inequality can be solved by throwing money at it).
The other thing that concerns me is the statement in the article that you don't see many multimillionaires who are female geeks. Well to be completely honest you don't see all that many multimillionaire geeks of either gender. Computing isn't the land of milk and honey. Most of the truly great computing minds are not rich. Most of the time it's the venture capitalists (Cisco) or the salesguy (Gates, Jobs) who gets rich while the true computing geek gets a lesser amount (Allen, Wozniak). And the real geeks, the ones that should be admired for their pure geek value, seem to get nothing at all (Engelbart, Ritchie, Knuth). If you want to get rich off computing, become a venture capitalist and study economics at university, do not become a geek!
As a female in Math/CS at a heavy Math/CS/Engineering school, I don't find that girls in CS have made any mistakes. None of the girls *I* know have lost anything by choosing a technically oriented major. In fact, the opposite -- they've gained knowledge and confidence in themselves. (And yes, we're all making nice salaries both on our co-op workterms and after graduation. And so are the boys.)
None of the girls I know consider "feminity" at all important, whether they are in Arts, Science, Math, CS... and although they're ambitious, ambition is not their principal motivator. And they still manage to have good, meaningful relationships with nice guys. Frankly, you are who you are no matter what program you're in.
It seems like males are more inclined to "master" a skill (video games, computers, sports) than females. Females seem to emphasize social status, and males seem to emphasize ability. Personally, my computer was always a constant source of challenges (especially after installing linux). And I'd like the recognition and status that that gave me amongst my friends. Today, people on the street or whatever are impressed when they hear you have a swanky computer job. Positive reinforcement. Unlike the real world, programming follows rules. And the program is as perfect as you make it. No bully to punch you in the head or girl to break your heart. It can be a sanctuary, a safe place, where you can build your skills. This paragrath just lost it's direction, so I think I'll put it down now. BaNG!
Of course there's a Geek stigma, but that's because of the subculture that has been built up over time. According to sociolinguists, male-only groups have more of a tendency to use abusive language as an "in-group" type marker... now in a society in which the genders have been subtly subverted to certain roles, that type of language, the type of "insider's" lingo and attitudes, will be unattractive to anyone who isn't used to it.
The fact that the specific culture values people based on deeds and exploits doesn't exactly help. Certainly, this is changing, but it'll take time.
But until the subculture's stereotypes are diminished- the all nighters, the lack of social life, the sparse showering, the male egotism and chauvanism that used to be so often prevalent in this field- until these are but a dim memory I think active recruiting is still a necessity.
Certainly, it's not for everyone, but at least we're targetting a group in the population which used to be subtly discouraged from technical fields.
And mind you, CMU is not the only institution doing this. Many large companies also have programs set up to recruit local high school students in underrepresented minorities to go into technical fields. And I think this diversity truly helps the aura of the workplace.
yours,
kbs
I'm a geek chick myself, and I figure the biggest thing keeping girls from being hardcore geeks is their peers...as a teenager, I see it. Some of the girls in my class looked at me paging through a Linux manual and said "Sheez, what are you looking at? That's weird!" They scoffed and moved on.
;]
It's a big peer thing, mainly. At least in my experience. Most chicks don't like to be isolated. They figure if they so much as do more than point-and-click, they'll end up having to date a skinny nerd weirdo with coke-bottle glasses, high-water pants and dental problems. No, they want to hang around with the athletic guys.
I'm still in high school, and I'm a girl, but I can build a computer and install Linux on it (without messing it up TOO badly...heh..)And hanging around with three or four geek guys that would love to see what exactly I'm doing...well, let's just say it's not that bad
Btw, I'm considering a major in CS. And it's good to see that my chances of being able to use that are getting better.
Can't sleep, the clowns will eat me...
I should leave this alone, but I can't ...
... but it certainly helps if you can relate to the role model. Girls will often relate to other women, go figure. And it always strikes me, if I walk into a workplace that is all male - why aren't there women here? Is it an unfriendly place for a woman to work?
/. posts claiming that "airhead" girls get CS jobs because they are "babes".
...
... The fact that girls aren't drawn to the blood-and-gore shoot-em-ups does NOT reflect a lack of ability to program! But the lack of games out there does mean that computers may not be as attractive for young females. Hopefully this situation will improve, at least the game companies will someday want to tap that market that they are missing ... Perhaps the computer itself is not the thing that is not interesting, but the lack of any uses that computer can be put to by the girl in question. The web, with its boundless information resources and communications capability is already bringing large numbers of women into the computer-using world, and I hope will also help young girls become more comfortable in using computers and see a reason to do so.
...
... same as to the higher-scoring guys!
Role models don't HAVE to be of the same sex
As for the "compliment", yeah, there is room for debate over its appropriateness and if I am overreacting in feeling that it was inappropriate. But in a career where there are allegations that women get jobs because of their looks, not their skills, it is difficult to be taken seriously when your appearance is the focus. I don't expect most males to understand this, but I have seen previous
Now my experiences in high school are my own, and I hope that other females have had better ones! My science teachers were the ones who practised the subtle prejudice in their career suggestions. Steve, the 4th highest student in Chem, Physics and Bio, was encouraged to go into engineering. Girls held the top 3 spots, but we were encouraged to go into "journalism", "education" and (well, this isn't so bad) "law". Science/technology was never suggested to us.
I have some references in terms of limited advancement for women (and minorities too) in comp sci:
Educational Pipeline Issues for Women
Women in Science and Engineering
I doubt if the males out there who suggest there is no problem will read these articles, but they may be of interest to other women in this area
Again, I don't know if there is a need for "artificial encouragement" here - little girls *are* given Barbies and baby dolls, and boys are given mechanical toys. Girls are expected to be quiet and feminine, while boys are encouraged to get dirty and take apart the toaster. Those are generalizations, and some families are providing non-stereotypical upbringings for kids, but mainstream media (including commercials) gives the same old message.
There is a lack of good software for girls right now
One thing I find interesting in this debate is how upset some of the men out there are getting about this. It's not like big scholarships are being given to stupid girls or something. Getting the feeling there is a lot of insecurity out there
YS
PS. My C instructor was a pretty cool guy - only comments he made to me were about my programming skills
"Arrr! The laws of science be a harsh mistress." -- Bender
I doubt if you'll ever get rid of these things entirely. I know I pull all nighters quite a bit, and my social life is lacking. I am very egotistical, but not really chauvanistic. I think I'm better than anyone else, male or female.
Saying that, I'd also like to say that at my university, there are only two seniors, both female. In my class, which is junior, there is only one girl, and about 6 guys. The sophomore class has about 4 girls and 10 guys. The numbers, (~7 to ~16) show about a 2:1 ratio. I would say that this shows that the girls who enjoy the programming, and are able to tough it out can and will become Computer Scientists. I also think that this shows that many guys go into Computer Science with the same attitude that I see in so many people when I tell them I'm Computer Science: "That's where the money is, huh?" Every time they say that, I tell them that I'm in it for the love of the Science, not for the money, and that money doesn't mean that much to me. So, I'd say that more guys get into CSCI to make money, while the women do it for the love of it.
Anyway, I shower twice a day, and I expect everyone else to too.
. when in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout --Robert Heinlein
It's not just CS but also science that is clearly dominated (in numbers...and i'm sure more in certain instances) by men. FOr the past two years i've followed a lot of the ideas in figuring out why, and though there is a 'calling' per se, why don't more grrl s have it?
WHen i started computers (commodore 64 baby!) i was mainly interested in games (couldn't convince my mom to get me a nintendo)...and i get sick everytime i see a make-over program fer girls.
THe game aspect is pretty well documented, but its more than a technical hurdle of girls being a harder or more specific market. A few girl gaming sites have been cracked and attacked by bands of boy gamers...maybe the community isn't there...especially at 12 yrs old?
Plus, now that computers make into pop songs everyday, computers beyond the geek style of the internet, are seen as really methodical big brother fit-in or die image, or overl technical or whatever you'd like to descibe it as. In the 70s, the 'feminist movement' (which ISN'T a phase thank you very much) focused quite primarily on the social sciences and eliminating porn and in general, female history has largely been stuck in social humanistic ties with housekeeping, soothers of pain, etc. so its not terribly odd that a really cold machined image (however untrue it may be) might not apply...which is sad because even if we don't have a leagues of girls pumping out c code and designing pretty pink kernels instead of playing with hair, on a less technical level so much could be done by utilizing all the different ways of communication.
ANd on a day to day level, computers are of course in greater use than before. whatever social theory we can come with, i think the calling idea is something that should but isn't necessarily happening, not because girls aren't logical or can't get into them, because all my (female) friends who used to call me a geek and sorta separate themselves from that part of me, i showed them HTML and just in all my geeky conversations have gotten a lot of them into the web and everything. So it doesn't necessarily take all that much, but it isn't happening on the level of mattel and major game/computer/electronics marketers or the 'general social conscience' that you hear so much of in college...
chimchim
most male programmers aren't very attractive, either. but women are more tolerant of ugliness when money and/or intelligence is involved than men.
i don't know if you're the same AC that posted the original comment, but more women total in CS will also mean more "good" women in CS. unless there is something inherent about CS that makes it impossible to be a "good woman", i don't see your point. i dunno, if you program, you have to stay up all night and eat doritos so you get fat and ugly?
this is a stupid discussion.
To make it through the drudgery of a life in the "dry", technical fields like CS and engineering, you need some motivation. From a very young age, with no encouragement from anyone, I have found computer harwardware and programming to be so enthralling that I could lie awake at night for hours fantasizing about buying some new system or writing a program. It makes me wonder if there are some neurotransmitters involved akin to those that runners get (a "runner's high" is caused by endorphines, natural pain-killers similar to morphine, both of which are addictive).
Do other men feel this way? Having many close male friends with similar interests, I am certain they do. We can talk for hours about computers with a great deal of enthusiam...and pleasure, I suppose. I know men aren't known to talk as much as women about some things, but when it comes to computers, (some) guys just can't get enough.
Do women feel the same way? I wondered that for a long time, and so I thought I'd ask them. I asked a number of women that work around and with computers (so, they've already "made it") (1) if they have any computing projects they work on in their own spare time and (2) what they thought of a certain new technology. The response is typically (1) "No way! Are you kidding? I can't wait to get home and away from those things" and (2) "I don't know. I really don't care".
But how do women get by in some very technical and "dry" fields if they are so apathetic about the technology? Well, I'm not a woman, so I don't know. But I would dare to guess that women are motivated and even get "mental pleasure" from the prospect of "nurturing" a "career" (to use some womanisms) and making money. In contrast, most men I know tend to be less concerned with the idea of a perfect career.
Maybe women here can enlighten us. (1) Do you have computer projects that are totally unrelated to work? How much time do you spend? (2) Do you find yourself talking about the latest technology with your friends on your own time? And (3) would you say you get pleasure from the technology?
This sort of thing has cropped up before. And it has always been due to human error.
--
This sort of thing has cropped up before. And it has always been due to human error.
HAL9000
Nobody wants to be the only X in the room, for any value of X
Let X = "naked man"
Therefore the statement reads "Nobody wants to be the only naked man in the room."
However, I perfer to be the only naked man in the room for most values of "room".
Therefore, by counter example, I have proved your statement wrong.
:)
Sure, are you? Being mainly a biology geek, may I proffer some info: the ONLY significant difference in brain mass between males and females is 4 extra ounces males possess which seems to be related to a natural sense of direction and spatial relationships. Also, women have been found to "double task" between brain hemispheres almost twice as efficently as males. I have explained seceral aspects of computing to my female friends, and I assure you, they and I are both quite capable of understanding it. Perhaps you might consider that females are socialy more 'group- oriented' , and do not generally wish to take up an interest which, if they were male, might at least proffer upon them some element of "coolness", but as a female, totally ostrasizes them from the group of both male programmers and 'normal' people. At least in high school, which is where most CS majors seem to get their start. Trust me , I know. Sorry if this's a bit disorganized..I was up all night writing a web page.
I'm with you on the merits of this discussion...
I'm a woman, a wife, an engineer (chemical), and a programmer. *gasp* And my husband is a programmer, too.
There are always going to be PEOPLE (man or woman) in the CS field "for the money", just like any other high-paying field (a friend of mine went into HR 'cause she said it paid good money, and she doesn't like it at all). They'll probably burn out, like someone else mentioned, and move on with their lives.
There are always going to be PEOPLE who are mediocre. There's a guy that I had to deal with in college ChemE courses that squeaks himself by by cheating and mooching off of group members (namely, me). There are girls that I had to deal with in my CS courses that mooch off the people that know what they're doing, too.
These people may all make good husbands/wives, there's no way of telling that. How good you program (or chug through engineering problems) does not well reflect on how good a wife/husband you "make" in any respect.
I don't care if there are few women in the CS field... most of the time, it's a "calling" or something that just plain interests you, and not all women have the CS "call". But to all the women that are, more power to ya. If anything makes it tough, it's the morons that look down on you and say "I didn't know there could be women in engineering!" or "even SHE knows that!"... along with making strange assertions about the quality of PERSON you are.
Maybe you (original poster) should talk to my husband about it a bit, he'd probably be more adamant about your stupidity.
Recruiting is a big subject in engineering departments... I've been to departmental advisory board meetings, and a lot of the times it's recruiting that's a major subject. Recruiting and retention, anyway. They discuss where they're "losing" students to, how they currently recruit students, how many students total they have, how many (sex) or (race) they have, and what they are aiming to have. *shrug* maybe they decided they wanted more women in their program to even out the odds a bit.
This discussion just makes me want to say *snort*
-nicole
My SO is a CS major, but she has grown to hate it. Fortunately, she's a math major, too, and finds that more interesting. But most of the females I have encountered have little or no interest in programming - even the CS majors. Most of them just don't seem to quite understand the appeal. I don't mean to say that women can't get involved in programming - it'd be nice to see more! - but it seems as though it's just a guy thing. More power to those few women that really do love it - if they're out there anywhere.
Dare we say stereotype? Generalization? I do not wish to be a "female" anything- I want to be an astronaut. My boyfriend is a computer maniac. He also cooks excellently, picks up after himself, and will turn his LINUX box off at any given time. My point? Not all computer programmers, male or female, have the stay-up-all night never do the laudry or brush their hair disease that you seem to think. Did you also consider that a male programmer, by your definition, might also make a "bad husband" Perhaps we should issue the warning on all CS classrooms " Beware, all ye who enter here, you will never get married!" As for wanting a "good wife", well, who wouldn't? While we're at it, let's try for world peace...the men and women these days who are willing to stay at home and do the other partner's laundry are few and far between.
Attention Female Programmers:
That AC does not speak for all of us.
Personally, I would rather grow old and die
with someone who understood
all-night programming sessions...not to mention
my general mindset.
Seriously, I am not saying I would ONLY consider dating a CS major. But the further you move away from the CS / Math majors, the less understanding a person is of the need to code, the beauty of the perfect algorithm, and it's priority over all else.
My last girlfriend, for instance, was very intelligent, both in english and math, but simply was not interested in programming. It was at times a strain on the relationship, for she simply could not understand (and even disdained!) my enjoyment of programming.
Well you can artificially boost female enrollment, artificially boost female hiring, hire actors for female programmers in movies. Despite years and years of this, the bankruptcy commercials still use women as the poster for bankruptcy, women are still passengers in the car commercials. We've had no luck in convincing women that they should be able to support themselves, which is the real limiting factor in enrollment. As for this year's entering class, they have it all figured out. They're going to get married and maybe work as receptionists, but the car payments and home loans are going to be covered by the patriarch. It's all in the can.
I'm a female Computer Engineering major and, after observing my (decidely non-techie) friends, one of the biggest reasons girls don't enter CS or EE as often as the guys do is that we're just more afraid of breaking things. We aren't as likely to drive extremely fast and we're more worried about damaging property. Something in our culture and/or something in our nature causes us to be more careful.
The way I encourage my friends to take more risks with their machines is to constantly remind them that the worst thing they can do without opening the box is to wipe out their hard drives, and that they'd have to be fairly deliberate about that (and this is without introducing them to fdisk or other such partitioning items), and that running the restore CD will fix most of that (well, except for the MP3s they'd lose.)
We (women) do it to ourselves in many ways, though. My roommate was skimming an issue of _Cosmo_ a few months back, and I glanced over her shoulder at an article listing 30 practical things women really should be able to do (change flats, set VCR clocks, etc.) I nearly hit the roof when it listed "trying to add memory to your computer" under a sidebar of 5 things *not* to try!
Have an old machine? Give it to a girl to play with, and tell her not to worry about breaking it. I think that having only a TRS-80 Model 4 until 1995 and then having a 386 until last summer pushed me to learn more about the hardware, since I wanted to do BBS stuff (early 90's) and then actually use Netscape (late 90's).
From what I've seen of the few female techs and programmers I know, American industry is missing out on a vast resource. I think that one of the best ways to tap it would be to remind girls/women that practically anything that can be done to a machine while the case is closed can be remedied by formatting and reinstalling the operating system and programs and that they can install their own hard drives and memory upgrades using the instructions provided.
Grüß Gott aus Bayern!
A better question might be what are the desirable skills of a programmer? Software engineering is increasingly a group activity, which calls for a different set of skills than those of the "hacker". The emphasis has shifted to working in teams and closer interaction with the user/customer. This requires strong social skills, an area where many male programmers are deficient.
The last head of my software engineering department was a woman. I don't know if she was a great coder, but she was a great leader, manager and politician.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
AMEN!
just to add to your response:
the generally accepted theory is that while
male hunters made many of those stone arrows,
the women made their tools out of more perishable items (wood, plant matter, pretty much anything short of stone or metal). As well, how does anyone know who made the arrow heads in prehistoric days?
Maybe the hunters were out hunting so much, the women actually made them? Unless someone call tell the gender of a stone tool's maker, you cn prove very much.
Further more, computer programming is not just about tools, it's about symbols, manipulation of abstract thoughts.
Perhaps men tend to see it from the tool angle.
Even if this was 100% true, the opposite logic would be that women, as "social" creatures (which I think is somewhat of a stereotype, I know a number of antisocial women) would approach programming from a facility in liguistics...how best to say something in order to convey information. Even then, such tendencies are not strongly one gender or another, and even if they were, evolutionary trends SHIFT.
Unless you're in the mood to find it funny.
If you have the stomach to read the comments you'll find these 3 statements to be extremely common:
1. This is a load of PC crap, women aren't discouraged from doing CS at all, they just don't have the brains for it.
2. I want chix to do CS so I can fuck them.
3. All chix who do CS are butt-ugly feminist losers who can't get a man.
Spot the many inconsistencies...
No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.
That comment was butt ass ugly, that's for sure. Superficiality is its own reward I suppose.
If they're just going to mount campaigns to encourage more women to think about CS, then I'm all for it. If, on the other hand, they are going to try for another affirmative action-type fiasco, then forget it.
The last thing we need is yet another political agenda pushing more underqualified personnel into the industry just to make everyone feel better.
I remember some of the older instructors at BCIT (British Columbia Institute of Techology) mentioning that when the CS section was first introduced, there was a 50% gender split in enrollment. It then gradually slid down as the years went by, to the point that I doubt it would be higher than 10% today.
Is it because it is a "man's world"? I doubt it.
In the early stages of computing there were many women present on the scene (in perspective of the time period, of course).
I've had discussions with female collegues regarding this subject and while nowadays that is the outward apearance (due to the serious imbalance in the male/female ratio), inside it is not the case (at least at the office where I worked, anyway).
The ratio of women in high positions at the office directly reflected the ratio of women who enrolled in CS programs.
Is there a problem with geek kids chasing the women around? I never saw it in my school.
We certainly never treated them any different in my classes. They'd be right there in the thick of it with the rest of us as we commandeered a computer room for 2 weeks during projects crunch and never left except for bathroom breaks and pizza delivery.
I was one of those geek kids who was too absorbed in my hacking to even notice the opposite sex =)
Role models? I never had any. I can't think of any computer hackers I looked up to.
Encouragement? Not! I had quite the opposite.
"Stop playing with that damn computer!"
"Go outside! It's a beautiful day!"
etc.
Is it the idea that all CS people are hardcore hackers who use a logic probe to monitor RS-232 Rx and Tx lines?
I know of many men who believed this, and avoided CS because of it. I seriously doubt this would have any more (or less) effect on the women.
I'm getting sick and tired of all this liberal "making everyone feel good about themselves" policy that seems to be sweeping the nation these days.
If you don't have the tenacity, ambition, and desire to do what it takes to get what you want, then you don't deserve it.
I am an arrogant bastard, and I have a right to be. I worked hard to get what I wanted, and I never gave up, even though the time from vision to completion (of some things) took 10 years or more.
I have new goals and visions, and they will be fulfilled even if it kills me.
If you can't take discouragement (barring serious harassment or discrimination, of course) then get the fuck out and let someone more worthy take your place.
I think the biggest problem women have (as well as most minorities) is that they oppress themselves and don't even know it. They demand all sorts of equalities and opportunities, and then they go back to their old ways. "Cosmopolitan" claims to empower women, but I think it backfires.
Geek stigma?
Shouldn't that affect guys also?
I my high school, there were a groups of
us geeks, who all took the same classes, sat at the same tables, etc...
there were about 25 of us in the group, split about 50/50. Of those, there was a sub group of die-hard CS/MATH students (I consider it the same broad feild), about 5 students. Of these, there were 4 guys and 3 girls. When we went off to college, only one of the guys majored in something unrelated.
This was even on top of the fact that all four of the counselors were clueless, and were as stereotypically discouraging as could be expected.
The simple fact that the current distribution is the way it is would be sufficient proof of a general difference in aptitude by gender.
You are right. This is patently false, for the reasons you discussed. There are too many other variables having to do with upbringing, encouragement by public school instructors, things like 'girl scouts' which do little (if my wife's experiences are typical) other than preparing girls to be housewives.
Sure, environment has a lot (if not most) to do with the scarcity of females in technical fields. But do also remember that there is a grain of truth to the statement above. Men and women are different in the way we think, our capacity for linear thought, etc. Seems to me, for example, that I read of an Air Force study that shows that women would be superior air-combat pilots because of faster reaction times and quicker decision making.
I guess that might mean that all things being equal, there might be more women than men in technical fields. Who knows. My point is that you can't just scream sexism and ignore the differences between the sexes.
Still, my point was this: no one here said anything about being angry with women for taking men's jobs (at least prior to your post, I haven't read most of the later ones yet). It isn't very good to attack people by tacking on things you remember from elsewhere. While I agree with you for the most part, I think your arguments should probably be saved for those that say it. As for my comment about hunting for female programmers, it was just a reference to affirmative action. I was just pointing out the flip side to what you said about less competent people deserving a job in some mystical way. I could just imagine a guy being turned down for a job. "I'm sorry, we dont have 25% female employees yet, we can only hire a woman, even if she's less qualified than you are."
I'm not trying to say women are less qualified, but that this thing goes both ways. And I feel that a person's character has a lot to do with this discussion. I don't see how it couldn't. And I based my opnion off of what I seen: you belittling several posters for not only something they said, but for an almost similar thing someone else said in 1992. That didn't seem right to me and I voiced my opinion as such.
Hey, have a nice one, guy.
I hope there will be more babes into
computers because then i can hump them. So
much easier to meet and interact with a chic
when she is interested in something you excel
at. Right now with no babes knowing how cool
hacking is or knowing anything about it all,
you can impress them at bars with you're skills.
If they new then we could and i would have a so
much easier time scoring.
Go chics get into technical fields.
PLEASE!!!!!!
Ok, allow me to bitchslap you...
What exactly do you look for in a mate? Let me guess: submissiveness, avalability, sexuallity, appearance/attractiveness. Since that appears to be the limit of your desires save yourself a lot of time and go to your local street corner and look for a whore. I'm sure she'll be glad to be a live-in for a good share of your income, she might even give you exclusivity.
If this is the extent of the respect that you have for women then I ernestly hope that you don't breed; that sort of sexist attitude shouldn't be taught to children.
Let's play madlibs:
So, guys, if being a lonely bachelor until you die at seventy-five appeals to you, by all means start writing code.
Sound rediculous? Of course it does! Take a minute to open up your mind and think how that might sound rediculous to a woman... The fact that you didn't do that makes me wonder what kind of a problem-solver/programmer you are...
Doesn't that point to the kind of a husband you would make? (Hint: yes - poor at best)