Slashdot Mirror
MTV Profiles "Hackers"
Christopher Sypal writes "I just found out that MTV is going to have a special this Wednesday (10pm eastern) called 'True Life: I'm a Hacker'. Looks exactly like what you would expect from an MTV show with 'hacker' in the title." If MTV wants to put *real* (and funny) hackers on the air, they ought to send a camera crew to the (highly photogenic) Geek Compound and do a show on Cmdr Taco and Hemos. Perhaps we should all write to mtvdart@aol.com and tell them so, eh?
Great, get ready for another stupid hacker vs. cracker debate. How about a Beowolf cluster of Crackers running Linux? Why can I not look here for weeks and still feel like I haven't missed anything?
This shit really erks(sp?) me. I think it would be great if during the interview some real code hackers bum rushed these script kiddies and powerbombed them. I will watch this and remember these bastards' faces.
Let's get it right.
I'm sick of it. I think that protraying hackers as the stereotype MTV is following should be grounds for lawsuits because it is definitly a violation of civil rights. Making such untrue statements about an entire culture IS an offense. Programs such as this are of the same pretext as the highly prejudiced media before the civil rights movement. We need to work to make sure the title of hacker does not become tarnished with media hype. I advocate the formation of geek unions, which has been mentioned on slashdot many times before, because together we have a chance at not being abused, then lied about. And I encourage everyone to email MTV asking that they get some real hackers, like Linux Torvalds, Richard Stallman, and almost anyone else in the kernel credits file. Dan H. dlhiggs@SPAMMERS-ARE-NO-BETTER-THAN-THOSE-MTV-SHMU CKS.flashmail.net
Excellent points... Although I find MTV more repugnant than anymore guzzling Mountain Dew. Am I the only one that gets a Ludovico (Kubrick fans will know what that means) complex from watching that stuff? "Stop it, stop it, stop it! It's a sin!" BTW, I think we're called the Millenium Generation or Millenials (sp?) or something like that. Who makes this stuff up?
'Wow, I can change my grades or I can hack into a bank and do wire transfers'. It's the glamour of that that drew me in." Yeah... great.. anybody can do that with time... the question is who is stupid enough to do something like that... Anyone can go in a bank and rob it with a gun if he plans it right... but who is stupid enough to do that eh??
> And another thing about media.. (and totally offtopic) has anyone seen the new Our Lady Peace video for One Man Army -- is that not the same place where that Barenaked Ladies video was shot?? I mean.. I'm not a big fan of OLP or BNL but I made the connection.. don't you think that's a bit edgy? Yeah, it does look like it was shot in the same location. They must've run out of money after all those 'flying Raine' sequences. Cheesy video, IMO.
3:00PM Road Rules VIII
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4:00AM Cable In The Classroom
uh-huh
If you are not in Gen. X then you fall to the next letter of the alphabet, Gen. Y. Just what I have been told.... superfreak
Mtv knows a little about technology and has hardware. Somebody should go in and explain a few things to these contributers of code. I'd be impressed if their "hackers" pirated the network and left the system playing the "hackers" top 31337 countdown. Of course they would need some incentive for MTV not to try to shutdown the process.
On Oprah there were these kids who learned from the internet how to make these internet sites give them access to pages by using "keywords" in english. They were able to find all sorts of stuff. They must be really smart. Oddly the show didn't say anything about -sex.
when I was a "wannabee" (dunno about you) I freely admitted I was clueless. the MTV "wannabees" are passing themselves off as experts.
Perhaps everyone should check who the people in the show are.
If you haven't heard of cham, or ever seen Parse, perhaps your not as smart or what is it '313373' as you all think you are.
Granted it is mtv, and it will suck, but some one at mtv did their homework.
They got the right people, now it is up to their producers, editors, director, etc.
actually one of them (at least accordign to the video) almost had a heart attack while firing off a ps waux. My heart sometimes jumps when I do a ps waux and find out that netscape has doubled it rams usage in 5 minutes, but anyway...
What I think is so horrible about this special is that from what I understand it was supposed to be a story on the Mitnick case. Although the 'martyrdom' of Kevin Mitnick by l3gi0nz of k1dd1es is pretty tired, he did get a bum deal as far as his rights go. In addition Mitnick will probably have any remaining sympathay for his character destroyed if and when Miramax releases the movie based on the pile-of-rubbish-book "Takedown."(IMHO, anyway) Point? Oh yeah, a sympathetic or at least nonbiased take on the Mitnick case by the media would have been interesting.
Anyway from what I understand, Mitnick wasn't 'glamorous' enough for the MTV audience. (So I guess that rules out a sequel to the special with the just-as-glamorous RMS where he could sing that catchy "Free The Software" ditty...Music TV and all...Hackers Unplugged anyone???)
To MTV's credit two of the subjects they choose, Mantis and Shamrock, regularly direct people to Slashdot on their weekly Real Audio Show (Parse hack/phreak). Yeah, their soundbytes were pretty trite but considering MTV's demographic I imagine anything that wasn't dumbed-down or trying to sell the image that MTV percieves as "hackerish" has been cut.
Actually, the hacker is a friend of mine named Mantis, from the famed Parse hack/phreak tv show broadcast over the Pseudo Network. He is very skilled, and lectured at SpookTech and demonstrated techniques to government officials. So you can knock on mtv all they want, on the quality of the show, but the hacker knows his shit. He isnt someone who just learned about BO2K or something and installed it. They found him through New York Times article on him and Shamrock's lecture at SpookTech. MTV reads the news also.
Do you *think* that being in NYT and having your name published somewhere makes YOU competent enough to call yourself a 'hacker' (or cracker, or whatever term you use)? Tell me, does your favourite 'hacker' have all the knowledge about phone systems, soc. eng, VMS (DECNET hacking, abusing CMKRNL privs, DECNET privs, etc.), PrimeOS, HP3000 (with their ugly MPE* crap), various 'rare' brands of UNIX (like DG/UX, Sequent, UNICOS)? Does he also have extensive 'abusive' knowledge of Cisco, 3COM, Bay network systems too, for example? Not to forget X.25, without which you can't even THINK of calling yourself a 'hacker'... Has he 'configured' ever some DMSs? X.25 network equipement? How about Tandem systems (usually found in banks) - he's also very good with them, huh!? Add I could list more and more things, for next 3 hours... You know, UNIX, NT and buffer overflows are not the only things 'out there'. It's just 5% of what you need to know.
What YOU think is sufficient to impress people, will make those people DIE LAUGHING!
What do you think, why are there so many 'hacking groups' out there now!? Because it's extremely hard to find people that know many things - so you get 20 people in a group, and they try to 'fill the hole'. Doesn't work too well, since everybody thinks "he's so special". I know only 3 groups that function properly, but they don't give a damn about anything else than usual UNIX/NT/Routing stuff.
If some average knowledge of programming and basic understanding of TCP/IP networking makes you horny... You should just stop bothering you & other people with 'hacking'. You're just a lame script kiddie. Hacking a military machine is one of the most simple things - there are so many military machines out there.
I really doubt that your 'friend that has a f***ing clue' would ever get a job to perform intrusion tests, in any serious security company... Maybe if he starts his own (which seems to be popular; every script kiddie is doing that now).
And of course - a friend has told me all of this... (in case you get too interested in all this).
Yes, I am a true life hacker. I always make sure my beard stubble is precisely 1 mm in length. It accents my Lorenzo Llamas features and my Mel-Gibson-in-a-Lethal-Weapon-Flick hairdo. I always wear an oversize J-crew plaid long sleeve (ironed) on top of a lilly-white $20 white t-shirt. My blue jeans are stoned washed. When I drink, I only drink the finest flavored iced tea. But when I'm mountain biking out on the Grand Tetons with all of my highly diverse number of friends, I drink mountain dew, sometimes Surge (they're bottled by the same company, right?)
I do own a computer. Mine comes with a service plan. It makes lots of beeping noises.
And so on...
Actually, Quite literally, he undoubtly has that knowledge and probably more. When I think of hacker, thats what I also think of, not someone who can download all the latest tools and run them, and reads bugtraq and stuff. Is is vary familiar with unit/nt/routing (i think he might even have cisco cert, if not getting it right now), tcp/ip,etc..
Uh, seems my english is pretty bad, when you didn't understand my point. Exactly what I've been saying before - that is USUAL profile; you have people with that knowledge everywhere. You think that guys with 'certs' are the ones that do the best security work (you can call it 'hacking')? Cert is worthless - you only get to learn stuff that is KNOWN (get the point). Get ICSA, for fun, and you'll get the point.
And he does do professional security consulting.
Get real - everybody is now doing 'consulting'. That means absolutelly nothing (I've met contractors and consultants which knew less than usual script kiddie). Give some details of what he has done/found, what is his specialty, what he's best in, etc. - that might be a good way to convince people that your friend is good (which would make me quite happy, to be honest; only idiots are appearing on TV/news these days, there should be some good people on tv sometimes). But if you can't give details, and only claim that 'he knows the hacking shit' - you look funny.
But really, a serious major company, thats bs. What makes you a good security firm, because you name gets well known. That doesnt mean anything. Anyway, he knows his stuff, and when I mean stuff, I mean what you consider to be true hacker knowledge.
Fine. I wouldn't mind having his email address then, to exchange some knowledge. It's been a while since I've found a good guy. You can use the fingers on your hands to count 'hackers' that have knowledge to write asm stuff for VMS - will be happy to find out that your friend is one of them (help is always needed).
And if you don't know what I mean by saying 'serious security company', then you definitelly have no clue about security either. I'm not talking about WebTrends or ISS for sure... The best security companies (that give best security services) are not very known at all, since security SERVICE is not something you're advertising on your favourite website/tv station. They're known in circles where they need to be known.
irks Colossal
this isnt new. mtv has been showing a lot of crackers on lately. mostly crackers attempting to rap. Y'know, fred durst, kid rock, eminiem, all those other people..
yeah!!!! im goin 2B on tv!!!! MtV r0cKs!!! im so 31337!!!!! there goin 2 half my totally rad hackz/warez/serialz homepage 2!!!! there goin 2 show me hack dis reely /ool sitez wid wsftp!!! i cant w8!!!!
email me!!!! B1FF920@aol.com!!!!!
Come on, people. This is NOT a big deal. Not in the grand scheme of things. So they mean cracker and say hacker - who cares? Sure, MTV brainwashes. But is this particular instance a mortal sin? No.
Now, if you want a justifiable reason to hate MTV, just turn on your radios or go to the mall. MTV is the primary villan that brings us the Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, 98 Degrees, Five, Boyzone, Britney Spears, Christina Ageulara(sp?), Rickey Martin, and more. Fact is, THEY ALL SUCK. They don't write their own stuff. Don't play their own instruments. Don't perform live often, because they can't sing either - they're all studio magic. Fact is, MTV decides that someone should be popular, and puts 'em in heavy rotation. Two weeks later, they ARE popular. And don't get me started on clothes. Ambercrombie and Fitch??? Tommy Hilfiger??? Gimme a damn break... NO pair of jeans is worth $50. MTV is to blame for this, too... they try to pick our clothes, hair styles, food, drink, taste in music, and everything ELSE that strikes their fancy.
Bah. Give me my Pink Floyd, Metallica and Guns 'n' Roses any day. Real bands write their own stuff, play their own instruments, and build a fan base by playing live, NOT by their videos. Anything else is a choir, no matter what they say.
/rant
Fuck yeah! Guns n' Fuckin Roses FOREVER! A few weeks ago MTV played their Top 100 Rock Videos of All Time. That was the best few hours of MTV in the past 7 years or so. Todays studio pop dance shit makes me puke.
New GNR live album is due out at the end of November I think. I have the new GNR song from the End Of Days movie in MP3. Its a decent tune. But without Slash a lot of the potential is gone.
Topic says it all...
Hmm, that commercial said I was the Pepsi generation....
Either stupid shows or rap music. Somehow it suddenly got cool to be black.
Had I just heard that title I would have thought its blacks making fun of white people. When you see the word hacker you think computer, when you see the word cracker you think white people.
This whole discussion has been focused about how the MTV guys are script kiddies, and how they aren't worthy of being called crackers. But who is then? Some guy in here listed a whole crap load of requirements to be a cracker, but how many people actully fit those requirements? Are there any "true" crackers/hackers on /.? I'm not saying I'm a hacker, I'm far from it, but it seems that one someone else is called one, you feel like you have to prove yourself and say the other guy is a wannabe. It's sorta funny actually.
Hahahahah someone moderate it up
I was at the 2600 meeting in NYC about 5 or 6 months ago when MTV showed up with cameras to do some interviews. I showed up a few minutes late so I could not be on the show. I wanted to go on and set the record straight that there are hackers and crackers. I am a hacker, I will admit to that. If you call me a cracker. I'll get pissed off. ( and not becuase im white :) But, MTV did not want to air anything remotly close to that. They only wanted to air what they wanted everyone to hear and bring up there ratings. ohhhh, hackers are ruining the world.... MTV, what a joke.
What will happen after Gen Z? Oh no, a Gen Bug!!
actually i try to watch 120 minutes whenever possible - it lets me know what bands i'm going to hate in six months. (thanks to them, i was the first kid on the block to hate green day)
I wither under your insightful barbs, flawless logic, and four-letter expletives.
Had the original post been a troll, you would have bitten hook, line, and sinker.
I'm glad it wasn't a troll. Your frothing overreaction to criticism of the almighty Slashdot has made my point far better than I could. Thank you.
Shut up, you self-important righteous bastards.
there is some loser from undernet named chamelson who couldn't even install an xserver for his video card on linux.. that is a HACKER on the mtv show this is PATHETIC haha.. losers
Heheh...somebody moderate this one up...
For me, it depends on what mood I'm in. If I'm just off work, and I get into a coding mood, I just jump into it. If I've been off work for a while, and I get an idea, I'm usually already relaxed [read: anything from underwear to fully clothed] so I just go ahead and code. Although I do have to have a liter Dew (or perhaps a SoBE) on the desk (can't find Jolt around here).
.... or is the video for Weird Al's "It's All About the Pentiums" more relevant to the life of a real hacker than this trendoid spewage?
Yo! MP3 Raps
Everyone is so wrapped up in debate between hackers and crackers, these guys aren't hackers, MTV's programming is so lame, etc.
The real point is not the show, it's the advertising. The shows between the shows.
Anyone care to start a betting pool on just who the sponsers will be?
Microsoft will pay shitty odds.
E-bay? Video game bullshit? Chat systems? Surge?
Cap'n Crunch? 2600? Wired? Pizza Hut? Apple?
Red Hat? Doritos? NSI? NSA?
You tell me, I don't have a TV.
Anonymous Crowley
I mean come on, if they did get thier website hacked they would just use it to advertise thier new show.
You'd want something more system wide to get MTV to stop and listen. Take out the babysitter.
Someone that didn't advertise yourself.
:) They might get some fans hacking sites for them when Kevin gets let out.
They break into a system and wander around it, fixing problems so the admin notices nothing and can continue playing freecell thinking all is well with the world.
I hope the cops bust the guys that were on that show,
wow the fuckin lopht said it. it must be fuckin gospel. lopht couldnt hack their way out of a wet paper bag.
Sorry, it's just one of those days when you need the satisfaction of putting someone down to feel better. I'm sure you know what I mean.
emptyV sucked when I was little and sucks now. They try to dictate what's "cool". Does anyone remember the LeRun?? Part bike...part skateboard...and all attitude according to the commercial from '88. Oh that was a failure!
:)
The one thing that I enjoy thinking about when I see the VJ's is that they may be thinking they are the sh*t now...but name one that ever went on to do anything?? Besides Daisy Fuentes
I can picture it now.....:
"yeah man, I like, totally cracked it man! Im
elite man....like dude, I like downloaded these
tools and ran it, and next thing I knew I was in!"
then you have the dips at home thinking:
"wow, these are what hackers look like! I want
to be a hacker too! and "Hackers can do that,
what a glamorous lifestyle!"
.
.
.
...$5 says that none of these people have seen
any type of Unix box, and are probably running
"bad-ass win98"!
Check out these cool port sniffers I downloaded
today from anti!!!weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
BTW: $10 says they'll mention mitnick, and do you
think they'll mention our happy hacker, grandmother-freakish type carol meinel?
I only code when slathered with lukewarm butter and dipped in low-fat Granola cereal
Here in Canada, any beer under 8% is consitered to be for children and the elderly. =)
It would have been much better if that ass-sucking loser JP hadn't been displayed so often. -Legion
With egos that match the inimitable Sir Dystic. Why do you lot insist on marginalising yourselves with these outbursts of self interest and acute nerdism. Get a life, better still, get a girlfriend. So what if MTV is doing a piece on hacking and uses the monicker "hackers" in its title. Whilst you moan of commercialism etc. MTV is doing the job that made the hacking community the 'scarey' reputation you so obviously languish in - whilst dreaming of a real life... Moron be gone. Anonymous Coward... er bored of geek backlash, yawn.
This story does seem proper when you look at the typical MTV Viewer - Backstreet Boy Loving 14 year old, whose idea of a "Hacker" is someone on AOL trying to get their password or cybersex. Personally, I'd rather watch a "Behind The Hacker" special on VH1. but that's just me -spicy bisquit
wierd... I thought it was just me. Of course only ever at home or VERY late at night when I am ABSOLUTELTY sure there is nobody else in the office.
-AC ('cause other people here read this *grin*)
"If you want to see real hackers you should come to the Geek Compound and see us blah blah blah...."
At what point did the grand poobahs of slashdot become so full of themselves? Sorry, I guess I was just under the impression that you guys were a little more modest.
Slashdot is an impressive piece of work. It's creators have combined a clever piece of software with interesting content. Along the way, they've attracted a community and helped them communicate with each other. That's no small achievement.
But this, "Yeah, man, MTV sucks. We're the real geeks" attitude is really grating -- not only in the original article but in many of the response posts.
These self-proclaimed "geeks" and "hackers" mock the "jocks" and other self-important people with a narrow range of talents. At the same time, the "geeks" indulge in the same chest-thumping and penis measurement. Instead of "Yeah, man. I could kick his ass," it's "Yeah, man. I could write that script," or "I could own that box."
I have no doubt that many of the Slashdot posters are very skilled. I'm sure many of them do qualify for the title of "real hacker". However, proclaiming yourself a "real hacker" with a post on Slashdot is a pretty pathetic way to prove it.
I'm reminded of a sig from a Slashdot member -- "Slashdot has more wannabe managers than hackers" I never see that person posting anymore. Now, I think I know why.
I've been hearing about that live album for years. Will believe it when I see it. As for Oh My God, I almost died when I heard it. I hope to God that GNR's not gone electronica. That crap scared me.
Slash was the real genius of that band; he wrote, played, and sang. Axl has a one in a million voice, and is a fantastic frontman, but their best epic stuff (Don't Cry, November Rain, Estranged, etc) came from Axl and Slash together. Their best hardcore rock came from Slash (Think About You, Mr. Brownstone, etc). Don't get me wrong, GNR will be a force again, but without Slash they're a ghost of what they were.
And if you liked that Top 100 videos stuff, you've gotta by Guns N Roses "Welcome to the Videos." Make a trip to amazon.com, and cough up the $18 or so. It's all their videos (minus Civil War for some reason) with NO commercials, NO Carson Daily, and no interruptions of any kind. I love it.
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Just lurking, thanks!
It's a neon green soda (pop, coke, whatever) that has a citrus flavor, is loaded with sugar and caffiene. Pretty good stuff actually. I have a friend who prefers mellow yellow to it, which is almost the same thing. Whatever. IMO, one of the good things about mountain dew is when the hours melt away whilst staring at a display, the mountain dew goes flat, but it still tastes ok. Jolt on the other hand tastes like crap flat. I've recently tried bawls, made from guarana beans (speeling?). It's pretty good also. There's always the standby coffee too, controlled via X10 and crontab to wake me up with the smell in the morning.. mmmmm
Yes, this sounds very familiar. I'm 16 and have been dealing with these types of people... well, ever since elementary school, I think :) They don't understand what I'm doing and write it off as boring and a waste of time. I discovered an interesting facet of this, though. While they could all care less about my kludges over the years, when I burnt a CD of some music I had been tracking, everyone seemed to go into shock :P Ohhh... so /that's/ what you were doing... No, that's just a part of it... Moral of the story: blind them with a shiny CD. I also took it upon myself to deal with the script kiddie overpopulation problem... no, I didn't pull a BOFH, I just worked for about a year to convert one to UNIX hackerdom... well, something like that. He runs linux and is learning C and various graphics libraries now. Originally, he wanted to learn vishul basik to do some horrid AOL thingie. Well, I put a stop to that with some good ol' trickery. So, you can learn to coexist with them, you just need to convert the unwashed masses when you see potential, and maybe expand your digital work to something they can identify with (music, gimp-art, etc.). Of course, I don't mean all of them. The ones who don't see what at all this has to do with football have no hope at all, ignore them. :)
F0 07 C7 C8
Hey Dave, Whats up? I didnt know you read slashdot.
Jeff Knox
Actually, Quite literally, he undoubtly has that knowledge and probably more. When I think of hacker, thats what I also think of, not someone who can download all the latest tools and run them, and reads bugtraq and stuff. Is is vary familiar with unit/nt/routing (i think he might even have cisco cert, if not getting it right now), tcp/ip,etc.. And he does do professional security consulting. But really, a serious major company, thats bs. What makes you a good security firm, because you name gets well known. That doesnt mean anything. Anyway, he knows his stuff, and when I mean stuff, I mean what you consider to be true hacker knowledge.
Jeff Knox
You Tell them, I tried to, but maybe they will take you more serious because you are L0pht. I do know how MTV wont air anything technical. They kept telling mantis to rephrase what he was saying in what they call english, phrase it to the MTV audience. So dont exspect technical information. Mantis also told me how you L0pht people called them kiddies, hehe. :)
Jeff Knox
Ok, So I dont know anything about security because I cant read your mind? When people use terms as "serious security company" and other terms, its all subject to interpretation. You meaning could mean something completely different then mine, but that doesnt mean I know nothing about security.
I also said now were that certification ment anyting, your putting words into my mouth again. I also agree that certs dont mean anything, and that anyone can get a cert , doesnt mean they know what they are doing.
About his skills and qualifcations. If you want to know more email him, his email is probably on the parse page on www.biztechtv.com. The intention of me writing the comment was not neccesarily to promote his skills, as much as it was to tell me not to judge things by there cover. People had comments all over about how its probably some lame script kiddie, etc.., you really should go off saying such things that you dont know to be true, watch the show, then you can rant on how lame the person is.
Jeff Knox
You guys really dont have a clue who the hacker is in this MTV special, so you really shouldnt judge until you have seen it. Actually, the hacker is a friend of mine named Mantis, from the famed Parse hack/phreak tv show broadcast over the Pseudo Network. He is very skilled, and lectured at SpookTech and demonstrated techniques to government officials. So you can knock on mtv all they want, on the quality of the show, but the hacker knows his shit. He isnt someone who just learned about BO2K or something and installed it. They found him through New York Times article on him and Shamrock's lecture at SpookTech. MTV reads the news also.
To tell the truth though, dont exspect anything extravagent. Mantis felt kinda nervous with a MTV camera man following him around all day, so he didnt do anything besides typing 'ls' and 'cd' on his unix machine all day. The show is actually already online in realvideo, I will post a url later if someone doesnt beat me to it.
Jeff Knox
It's all about marketing to the masses, the masses don't want to be marketed to right now so they will market us non-marketing.
The funny thing about "hacking" is that it's just not entertaining. They could probably find someone real and someone good and our hacker community will be amazed at how good he's not (crackers don't code a lot) but the masses would never find it entertaining. It only makes sense to put a script kiddie up there or someone "who could break into a bank, but doesn't" which might as well be a script-kiddie for all practical matters. It's just not entertaining stuff.
Grade: B
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Insanity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
I must be getting too old... I find myself watching VH1 more than MTV (yes I know that MTV owns VH1) VH1 seems to have more music shows than MTV....
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Time is on my side
I've noticed too, that in any highschool there's always a few kids that are convinced that using aol and downloading warez makes them "uber-cool hacker guys." Then on the other hand, there's always a crowd that knows UNIX, and are capable of making 47k straight out of highschool.
Fortunately I fell in with the latter. And have been happilly running some form of unix or another since I was 12.
Earn cash in your spare time! Blackmail your friends!
It is amazing the comments and speculation from people who have no idea about what is in the show except for a couple of sound bites.
Here is a link to the Press Release I put up on the L0pht web site which should give a better discription of the contents of the show.
L0pht was interviewed and we tried to describe what hacking really is. We specifically told MTV that it wasn't downloading a scanner someone else wrote, then looking up a sploit on rootshell and running a script.
I haven't seen the show so I don't know how much of what we said made it in. I will reserve my judgement of the show until I at least see it.
-weld
For a cool article in the NY Times about real hackers look here.
MTV doesn't play my music all the day, MTV doesn't
comment on hackers right all the day.
It's right, they're sending what their audience
thinks it already knows a little bit of. I remember
at school when everybody was sooo cool talking
about how some systems could be cracked and how
to send trojan horses by eMail. That was so cool
for them, they didn't even ask if they were right
at all.
Once I talked to a "hacker", a student on my old
school, 19 years old, and he told me there was
a way to hide viri inside of a JPEG which would
be started the first time you view that picture
from your hard disk.
No comment.
.sig: SEGV
Welcome to the MTV Generation... it's all good as long as you have fun. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH!!!!!
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... well, ancedotal evidence supports the theory that one codes better when wearing only your underwear.
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Oh, it's funny alright. :^) I am just alittle annoyed that /. posted something like this - haven't we had enough "Hey look over there - it's another clueless journalist trying to write about us! Hahahhahahahaha!" stories in the last month?
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Let me guess, they're interviewing some kid that has probably just recently figured out his johnson can be used for more than utilitarian purposes? Comeon people... first, it's "cracker", not "hacker", and secondly crackers by their very nature are going to be difficult to find. Do 'ya really think some 13 year old kid appearing on MTV is a national threat blah blah blah invasion of privacy blah blah credit card blah blah info-criminal blah blah. Give me a break. Throwing stuff like this up on slashdot is a slap in the face - it offends our understanding of how this culture works. The fact that today's media is willing to believe anything a "hacker" says to be true without doing alittle fact-checking is disheartening to say the least. If I called up Channel 4 right now and said I just launched a tactical nuke at washington DC, what would the response be? Probably laughter. Now, if I say I *could* do that, all of the sudden they take me seriously. Go figure.
Solution: *click* *click* *delete*
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Hey guys, I wonder if Abe Ingersol from Road Rules is going to make a special cameo apperance! Wouldn't that be great!
[all sarcasm fully intended]
I'm not sure MTV wants to show Rob and Jeff not wearing pants all day, unless it's "Hackers: Living in an Underwear Commercial".
Sorry guys.
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QDMerge 0.4 just released!
how to invest, a novice's guide
I happen to be close friends with an ex-gH member, and I must say, there more than a half of a notch from a script kiddie.
If you ever saw gH code, you would understand.
-Mike
symetrix. We are building a religion, a limited edition.
Damn this media hype is coming up to the nerves. :)))))))))))))
It's everywhere. Hackers do that, broke that. They are watching you even in the bathroom. Looks too crazy? Well this week one of the police departments to combat cybercrime was shown on TV on how they adverted the attempt to kill a crime testimony in intensive care. It seems that the artificial breath system was connected to.. Internet!
That's the funny part. The sad one was that, last week, one journalist decided to dig up on my personality and "discovered" that I'm one of the 100 most dangerous hackers in the world. And it seems that he describes all this with some good detail (still I couldn't get my hands to this piece of crap).
The newspaper possesses a nationwide spread and it is known for its scandalous notoriety.
Well I'm a hacker. But I don't have any will to be on the first or last of these 100 "hackers/lamers" of the Universe. I would send this guy to Hell if it was not a problem. I have some good job here. What will happen tomorrow when I'll come in? "Sorry man but we have some bad news for you". Or "Don't leave the town until we check all you have done!"
The worst of all is that it was the brother of my wife that first discovered this piece of crap. So imagine what's going home...
Really these guys are going too far. All them to the Gulag. Or stamp in each of their heads a display with Slashdotters comenting their crap.
Doesnt mathematica use a Lisp-esque language? -Laxative
Keeping with the usual quality of progrmaming exhibited by MTV, I think JP of AntiOnline is going to be one of the principal sources on this god-awful teeny bopper extravaganza. In one of the "mailbags" on AO, he mentioned being interviewed by MTV for a TV show about hackers....
xm@GeekMafia.dynip.com [http://GeekMafia.dynip.com/]
When coding, I wear:
Jay (=
I love the "be a nonconformist, buy our overpriced designer crap" ads that they carry.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
gH is not a "real" hacking group for christs sake. I'm not sure who LoU is (not that involved). but they're probably much the same. I know/knew plenty of gH, they're hardly what you'd call sophisticated hackers. They're maybe half a notch up from these wanna-bes.....
I have. Its nothing impressive. I've yet to see non-derivitive code from them that actually _does_ something. Most of it is trivial crap, or doesn't work as claimed.
The Media just doesn't know it, because, well, watching a bunch of geeks slurping Mountain Dew and poring over man pages is *boring*. ;]
Speaking of Mt.Dew... I'd love to seem them do a realistic commercial some day. Show the real demographic that they sell to: A bunch of geeks coding, playing games, etc.
As if Sk8r d00dz and Busta-Rhymes are their real market... yeah, right!
- My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
Especially guys named Bill G Says the man with the MSN account.....
;)
First time it's been noticed. It was intentional. It's had been up there for about six months.
Like this one better?
The Media just doesn't know it, because, well, watching a bunch of geeks slurping Mountain Dew and poring over man pages is *boring*. ;]
Nah, you just have to learn how to market yourselves.
Q: What operating system do you use?
A: One a bunch of us wrote from scratch.
Q: Where do you get your gear?
A: Well, mostly stuff that other people throw away. Some of the more creative ones acutally build their machines from scratch.
Q: Have you like, broken into the FBI's computers yet?
A: Not worth it. We already know everything they do. Some of us are employed to keep the low lifes out of machines anyway.
Q: When do you hack?
A: Anytime, we spread all over the world, so it always daytime for someone. Besides, computers don't sleep.
Q: Have you ever caused other people harm?
A: Every day, baby. Especially guys named Bill G.
Q: What is your goal in life?
A: World Domination, of course.
Which would mean what exactly?
They're going to hack a couple ISP's and do some password sniffing? Try to read email in a language they don't understand? Thats the extent of their hacking ability.
It airs Oct 13. They finished filming & editing some time ago.
how funny would it be if someone *cough cough* just happened to replace the file at http://www.mtv.com/index.html with a little dissertation on the difference between a hacker and a cracker? (EG, Alan Cox and the people at L0pht are hackers, people playing war games on EFNet and defacing web pages using downloaded scripts aren't..)
C'mon, it would be doing mtv a _favor_. It would give them some free extra content for when their special goes on air.
Where's HFG when you need them?
-_-
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
What?
What?
I thought this was going to be an expose of a day in the life of Carolyn Menial. Since she is obviously the l33t Uberhax0r they are looking for. Where can she sign up?
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
Then imagine how your kids are going to feel!
And assuming pollution hasn't made them infertile, their kids are look back on you Generation Y fogeys and curse you with envy at how easy you had it, and blame you for leaving them with a dead world. You'll scream, "The Gen Xers did it! The Baby Boomers did it!" but they'll just shake their heads with contempt. And that's nothing compared to what their kids are gonna say... And if you're still alive to hear it, you'll laugh when they whine, because they get to drive those cool "The Jetsons" type cars.
In other words, quit complaining. It gets worse and it gets better, all at the same time. No, no one will ever give you any respect, but it's the same for everyone.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Carbonated water, sugar, caffeine, artificial yellow-green coloring. Best of its class, because except for the coloring, it doesn't make any pretenses about what it's for.
Well, I must be showing my age here ,because I can't do 70 hour marathons anymore. :(
As for beer, you can get real beer in USA, it's just that it is less common and costs more. The beer market is in a feedback situation similar to the PC hardware market: The tasteless stuff costs so much less than the good stuff, that people buy it regardless of its quality, thereby creating a big economy-of-scale, which in turn gets more people to buy it, leading to Budweiser and IDE hard disks having domination.
(Aside: I didn't start drinking beer until I was about 27 years old! I hated beer, because all I had been exposed to was the popular pissy stuff, and it just didn't appeal to me. I thought that's all there was. So I drank caffeinated carbonated sugar water beverages when the weather was warm, and coffee when the weather was cold. It wasn't until a few years ago that (at an office party, of all things) someone handed me a Sam Adams and I found out that beer could actually be tasty.)
Anyway, as for hacking while under the influence, many years ago, I discovered two things:
- It can be done! I can hack while buzzed. The code even makes sense later, when sober.
- When buzzed, I don't want to hack. It kills my motivation.
I guess it must not be the same for everyone; I'm surprised you start your marathons with the stuff. Maybe if I'de been exposed to good beer in my younger formative years, things would be different. So, my fellow Americans, I say this: do the younger generation a favor, and sneak 'em a good beer now and then, so that they don't get used to the pissy stuff or give up on beer altogether. They'll thank you for it when they're older.Oh, and while you're at it, expose 'em to real Heavy Metal so they don't grow up thinking that MTV industrial rapcore shit (e.g. Korn) is real thing. DTFM!
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
LOL!
In my calculus lab Red Hat was recently installed (seems WSU is trying to save some cash by trashing their Unix lisences). I switch virtual terminals out of X (they boot at init 4), telnet to our mail server, open an xterm (not available in their fvwm95 startmenu) and the whole section knows me as "that hacker guy". Nevermind that being fluent in C syntax I don't struggle with mathematica.
Then my group members ask what hacking is about, and they choke on the buzzwords. Chances are that MTV is targeting the 95% of the class that has no clue. This helps convince me that no matter how "jet set" popular culture percieves us as. Geek culture will never be a pop culture icon.
We need to fork off a separate network just for script kiddies. The only allowed TCP packets are SYN fragments, all hosts have open root logins via telnet, ports 137-139 have unpassworded root shells (oh wait, this is already the case), all HTTP transfers must consist of annoying animated GIFs, and Microsoft provides a GUI front-end to ping -f. :)
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
could run a Chimpanzee simulator. :)
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
...that years ago crusaded (via their "Rock the Vote" campaign) for young people to get out there and vote against things like censorship and the like? I don't know if they still do that (I'm no longer in their target demographic, and they've stopped sending me "Rock the Vote" stuff) but at the time it was a fine and noble effort. How the mighty have fallen.
Ten years from now, little Johnny will be old enough to vote, and MTV will remind them to do so. Of course, the issues are complicated, however, Johnny knows who's good and who's bad, thanks to MTV.
Oh, sure, MTV is still advising the newly-enfranchised to get out there and vote, but the things they're advised to vote for aren't the same.
They paraded some kids in front of the camera, and had them say (with blank stares of course) that they were glad that they were in uniforms, and that police were walking around in the halls with guns, and things are so much better now that there's a barbed wire fence around the campus....
And this is the idyllic future we're supposed to want to live in? Oh, sorry - it's the present, and we already live there.
Y'know, I think they used to show music videos too. Whatever happened to that?
GreyFauk walks up to you and Stamps a HUGE
Red-Ink stamp that says "Clueless!" on your forehead.
Yeah.. I liked the movie hackers... but only for it's
humor value. That and the cute chick 'Acid Burn'
MTV should've stuck to what they started with. Music Videos. That's it... nothing more.
Anyone else here not watched it for years?
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
I hate to say this (because it's true), but if you've
:>
:> hehe... Oh well. :>
been impressed by the quality of ANYthing MTV has
done in the last 15 years... Well... You're drifting
in that same fantasy world as 90% of the population
of sheeple in the U.S..
Turn OFF the TV... and pick up a book some time. No...
Not the pOrn mags, you dimwit, good quality reading.
A little bit of culture never hurt anyone.
How can you tell you've aquired a bit of taste in life
and culture?
Easy... When you watch MTV.. it will seem as immature,
uninsightful, droll and annoying as it really is.
If you read enough.. you might even catch on to what
kind of unthinking moron they are programming kids to be.
Have you seen all the junk they portray as being needed
to be popular these days?
*sheesh* As if a T1 wasn't enough
I'm so glad I'm wearing the 'Right' jeans...*look of ecstacy*
now ALL the chicks will think I'm hot.
Pullleaaase!
Ok.. so I'm starting to ramble..
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
MTV doesn't produce the videos.
:>
They should stick to just showing them....
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
Sucks (sometimes) to have been raised in a family
that welcomes and prefers intelligence...
I wanted MTV as a kid (10yrs old)
At 16yrs old (the next time I saw it) It sucked...
Yeah.. I watched it a few times just to make sure. heh...
That was... Ohhh... over 10 years ago... I've not seen any
improvements worth watching since.
Yeah.. caught a few bizarre cartoons... but one or two
of those a year is good enough for me.. *shrug*
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
And, if you're one of the x/y/13/whatever generation, you're screwed. But then, you already know that anyway, considering the way society has treated us... Maybe we should be called the Screwed Generation.
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perl -e'$_=shift;die eval' '"$^X $0\047\$_=shift;die eval\047 \047$_\047"' at -e line 1.
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perl -e'$_=shift;die eval' '"$^X $0\047\$_=shift;die eval\047 \047$_\047"' at -e line 1.
I've been a major dew-aholic for years. It's so smooth and chuggable. I can't drink Coke or Pepsi. They are so heavily carbonated that you end up drinking a mouthfull of froth. yew..
cpeterso
learning something.
.tv (bSkyb Television's IT channel here in the UK) they had an advert explaining the difference between cracker and hacker - I was proud and I thought that the GP had heard the squealings of hackers, that they should be differentiated from crackers, but no, MTV, the mainstream dead-head TV of america have done it again.
Recently on
Why oh Why, When oh When.
It sucks...
The last thing we need is another show that perpetuates the stereotype of computer users (who do call themselves 'hackers') as lowlifes with nothing better to do than break into banks. The actual definition of 'hacker' is someone who enjoys using their computer, and enjoys programming ('hacking') computer code. A person who breaks into computer systems is called a 'cracker.' The difference is quite significant.
Examples:
"I hacked out 1000 lines of code yesterday"
"I took the source code to this program and hacked in a new feature"
versus:
"I dare you to crack into this PC"
"A bunch of lowlifes said they had cracked into a satellite."
By putting on this show you merely show how out of touch MTV really is with the segment of the population they claim to be portraying.
Owen Williams
c'mon people.. you either A) Will watch this show B) Won't watch the show C) will be to stoned to do anything anyway..
this is just another rant on my behalf, BUT.... go ahead and dis the show, but don't request to be on it and dis it at the same time.
and real hackers.. what is a real hacker, what qualifies someone else to be "real" "hacker" over any other goober with a pc and alot of spare time?
just some ponderings, but you know, it is t.v. show, hopefully it wont be cheasy like the "Ghost in the machine" is. and hopefully it won't be the fight between good and evil of mitnick and such.
anyone have any info on what they will cover? MTV have a link?
If that kid had any idea what the DoD did with really sensitive info, he would never even pretended to have broken in. Stealing sensitive information is considered treason, which means you get killed for that kinda crap. They wouldn't have not arrested him, like he claims.
The intelligence of the average MTV viewer is amazingly low. At least the GAP might be able to sell a few more $1000 grunge look outfits out of the show...
-- toolie
*takes off red hat for a few minutes and puts on asbestos helmet..*
;]
..As a representative of the teens-early-20's generation (What is that called now? I'm too young to be Generation X...) this IS the kind of thing everyone believes. Say I bring a Linux manual or some Perl pages to school to read in my spare time--which I've done a few times this year.
"What are you reading that's so interesting?" Joe Average Student asks.
I tell them.
"That's boring," they scoff.
Then let's say I bring some printouts of 'Guide to (Mostly) Harmless Hacking' or some phrack exploits, stuff like that...(Last year I did this...I admit it. But it IS what brought me to Slashdot..;] ) Instantly I'm the center of negative attention by students AND teachers alike..."That's illegal!" "Hacking is against the law." "You're not going to DO that, are you?" "I can't believe you. Throw those away."
Thing is, we all know that the most the 3l337-haxor AOL kiddies will do is get telnet accounts, ping each other, WinNuke each other, download canned cracks, etc, etc. But they're mostly harmless. Just bandwidth hogs and arrogant adolescents.
I believe that a person with actual knowledge of *nix and how programming works is more dangerous than 100 AOL kiddies. The Media just doesn't know it, because, well, watching a bunch of geeks slurping Mountain Dew and poring over man pages is *boring*.
So MTV slaps the "hacker" label on a bunch of stoned-drunk-whatever 20-somethings who want to break into school/bank computers. And they call it entertainment.
This is how the public thinks, I guess. So instead of bemoaning the AOL hax0r 31337's who like to make real geeks look bad, perhaps we should just go on with lives...and make more money than they do...
Just my $.02. Flame away.
Can't sleep, the clowns will eat me...
Anyone wanna place bets on whether this show is going to be bad, or really bad?
It reminds me of an Humorist: "You see worse? Ok, this will be even worse"
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
I don't even understand why MTV is doing this. Obviously, the movie "Hackers" told me everything I needed to know about the computer underworld. I can't imagine there being a more relevant, comprehensive, or realistic documentary about the subject.. except for maybe "Hackers 2".
:-)
Some choice quotes from the RealAudio streams that require no external comments to make you realize what a quality piece of journalism that this isn't:
"All I did was sell weed and listen to loud music and stay out all night. I was one of those kinds thinking 'Wow, I can change my grades or I can hack into a bank and do wire transfers'. It's the glamour of that that drew me in."
"There's no people telling you what you can and can't do. At 16, Chameleon left high school and became a superstar at the hacking underground. Working from a computer in his mother's garage, he penetrated some of the government's most secure military computers."
"Gotta breath. Your heart's beating. You don't know what you're getting into but then yet again you wanna do it. Typing the final commands and then you're wondering whether the other guy at the other end is waiting for you to come and bust you. You break into somebody's system, that's not allowed. Just by having the password for the other account, that's not allowed; it's all illegal."
Well, at least MTV didn't just find a buncha wannabes who thought they were radical dudes. Er.. doh!
I know this has probably been said hundreds of times, but WHEN WILL THE MEDIA LEARN? It seems that scr1pt k1dd13s are more favorable press materials than the real crackers that no one knows about. I've been using Linux for over two years, but kept it to myself through the last of my school years, for fear that the freaks they call 'administrators' would size me up to be the next Kevin Mitnick in their eyes. After all, throughout the middle school and high school years for me, until the last two years, I was considered a nerd (and therefore was disliked for some strange reason) because of my interest in computers. Who's laughing now, when the same ones who disliked me are asking me how to fix their damn computers...
:)
But that's another rant altogether.
Here's a plan to at least help fix the cracker/hacker mixup - point anyone who mentions the word 'hacker' as the malicious sense to the Jargon File...at least they can start figuring things out for themselves, instead of having the media force-feed it to them. It won't completely fix the problem, but it's an effort.
_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / WKPT-TV 19
Game Show Fan / C64 Coder
FC Closer
I have a bad feeling this will inspire kids to go on the internet and try to be hackers. But instead we'll have a rush of script kiddies on our hands. AOL KEYWORD: HAX0R
...have you dyed your short hair blond?
......
+&x
-NT-
+&x
Would have to be the 80's, or did you mean cola?
+&x
...Generation Why.
Human Genome, nano-tech, quantum computing, creating life, Hubble telescope, the Internet, etc. All this stuff has been or will most likely be realized within our lifetimes. Interesting times, indeed.
+&x
That would be a company with lots and lots of radio stations, and a company with MTV,VH1 (plus lots of other stuff, like a TV network). What's that mean? The same songs, over and over, until SOMEBODY buys 'em. Long live MP3.
+&x
...per second of air time for the videos to be produced. Very expensive if what you say is true. Pay to make, pay to air. While MTV gets the advertising dollars. It will get worse, quality wise, check my other post on CBS-Viacom.
+&x
Anyone else here not watched it for years?
/. goes for.
Anyone here over the age of 24? If you are you shouldn't be watching MTV, at least from thier eyes. They target an audience from 13-24, that's it. Did you watch it then? Did you like it then? Does it suck now, to you?
They also target by psychographics, i.e. intelligence. Guess which end of the spectrum they go for there. Guess which one
I liked it when they played videos, but do you know how much videos cost to produce? A 3-minute video costs much more than a 30-minute edit job (Real Rules & Road World). When you have to fill up 24/7 creative programming is important, cheap programming is very important, and quality programming is what HBO does.
+&x
...and they have an AOL e-mail address.
What's worse is all the AOL lusers that will see this and begin to ph33r all the d00dz that IM them with "Hi, I'm from AOL support! Please e-mail me your password and credit card number at once!"
Ever have the misfortune to catch a glimpse of their show (Yack Live?) where they had a split-screen showing music videos and an AOL chat room? It goes a little something like this:
LuSeR4078: DUDE THIS VIDEO ROX
I liKe BSB 8029100: put on sum bsb! bsb's kewl
MannSONN12: hi im a 12/m with a pic
(repeat for an hour)
For more information, click here.
nah. code naked.
Actually, I was thinking script kiddy.
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
I know this is way off topic, but the comment about "publicity" jarred this thought: Andover, SlashDot and Rob got mentioned in the latest copy of Wired (7.11) on page 99. Keen.
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Please go Own that page if you know how.
To companies, we are merely numbers to be exploited and bent to their will, just another source to supply their greed with fuel.
To adults, we are looked down on as children, rebelious and lazy. Yet, those of our generation that actually prescribe to this are merely doing what their parents or role models taught them.
Our generation is also the generation that has, to say, gotten it up the tail pipe. Abortion has killed off more of our generation than any other. Once we get out into the work force, we will have more work to do than any other generation, merely because there are more retired people to support.
To the government, we're a force to be controlled and manipulated to submit. This is done through the public schools. We are no longer allowed to have individual thought. It is controlled by the restriction of freedom of speech. We can no longer talk about things that we believe in freely. All to the ends of political campeigns.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
MTV has always gotten paid to play videos -- that's how they got started. The videos are basically advertisements for the CDs, so MTV got paid for both its programming AND its regular advertising.
I suppose they might pay for 'exclusive' rights or something now and then, but I'm certain that this is how it worked in the 80's anyway.
Amazing! This message doesn't contain the words "First Post" andwhere!
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
Well, to tell you the truth, we all know why MTV is doing this special. It's all for publicity, as it is for just about anything else that the mainstream media do today. The suits at these companies live their lives thinking of new ways to get their brand name in here or there to make it seem like the company is "innovative" or "society shaping."
The sad thing is that MTV actually has shaped our society. We may not like to admit it, but ninety percent of the people in my high school are what I like to call "media whores." I may be exaggerating, but these people have become MTV's bitches. MTV has shaped popular culture, and, unfortunately, everyday culture. We see it everywhere...in people's clothing, choices in music, and any number of other ways they act. People have become more attentive to TV and computers and less attentive to people. While there were other forces, MTV helped this along at least somewhat.
Getting back on topic, MTV's special on "hackers" shows exactly what the popular conception of crackers and script kiddies really is. Take it for what it's worth: we know better, but MTV doesn't. I'm not trying to be elitist here...I'm saying that it's unfortunate that the truth about these kinds of things will never come to light in society at large.
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
Who defines what's substantive? In other words, if a post doesn't generate response, is it really a post...
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
MTV has become as relevant as yesterday's slashdot feed. They have become a tool of corporate exploitation that exists to cram the coffers of its corporate pimps by using it's only commodity -- you knuckleheaded youth.
Quit your whining because most of you will be watching. I cut my tether to cable tv a long time and have never looked back. I prefer to pack my grey matter with things that I care about, not what Madison ave tells me to care about.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
I find the dictionary a useful reference, perhaps you should pick one up.
I usually find the hard print references lacking so I usually jump online. Kinda makes picking one up a bit difficult, but I'll take your helpful hint metaphorically.
I gather that my preceeding comment went over your head, as you appear to be a literalist lacking in the ability to read between the lines. Let me spell it out for you so that it's easier for you to digest since metaphors don't seem to be your bag:
What you consider substantive, the next person may consider trivial. It's all relative to one's own beliefs and way of thinking. If you are so inclined to believe that there is one codifying way to determine whether something is substantive or not, I would wager that your intransigence and pedantry (you'll probably appreciate those words since you're a poseur word jockey) preclude you from truly being able to look at the whole picture. Closed minded indivuals, regardless of the merits of their arguments, are usally ignored. Don't make that mistake my friend.
And, oh by the way, I do not watch TV, therefore I would hardly be the person to gauge whether MTV is substantive or not, for myself. I do read SF voraciously, but I do not personally consider Bruce Sterling "major", as you put it. You see, I don't let others make that determination for me. I have the feeling that you do, on the other hand. If you believe you are an intellectual because you find participating in a Bruce Sterling ask-athon stimulating, I have a Nobel Prize to sell you.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Parboiling your response down to its essence, we're left with this premise:
You believe that my "relativistic" analysis of the word substantive is 1) intellectually shallow and 2) morally repugnant
I'll respond to the first issue because I don't have enough time to compose a decent response to the second issue, nor do I think it's "relative"
You see it's all about meaning. Yes, language is an artificial system, but it serves a purpose, which is to facilitate communication through creating commonalties of understanding. An exchange of ideas can either be poor, as in lacking in (intellectual) substance, or rich, as in (intellectually) substantive.
You'll notice that I've paraphrased your statement because if we are to be intellectually honest, that is what you really meant to say.
To pull a cliched page out of your book, let's examine the classical meaning of the word substance:
We'll assume that much you lend more weight to the second accepted definition, equating quality as intellectual fodder. That is perfectly fine, as you are an individual and you have enjoy that liberty in the "morally bankrupt" USA(L ?) I think the problem manifests itself in that you also believe that I defined substance in the same way, at least in our conversation thread. That is where you are incorrect.
To you, life may be nothing more than an intellectual pursuit where everything is judged by how mentally stimulated you are by an activity, object or person. In others, you equate quality with serious thinking (hallmark of an intellectual, right?). Once again, that is your wont.
My questioning of who defines what is substantive was contextually based on my defining substance as is listed in the third definition, thereby prompting me to use an equally cliched metaphor, which you so astutely picked up on
If forum A has 15 responses and
If forum B has 200 responses
(irrespective of "quality" of content)
which forum is more important, practically speaking?
Sure, we can delve into the philisophical and semantical nature of the question. That would make for an interesting exercise as well. But I think I'm primarily more interested in dealing with the practical content of the question, admittedly a less noble intellectual gander
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Parboiling your response down to its essence, we're left with this premise:
You believe that my relativistic analysis of the word substantive is 1) intellectually shallow and 2) morally repugnant
I'll respond to the first issue because I don't have enough time to compose a decent response to the second issue, nor do I think it's "relative"
You see it's all about meaning. Yes, language is an artificial system, but it serves a purpose, which is to facilitate communication through creating commonalties of understanding. An exchange of ideas can either be poor, as in lacking in (intellectual) substance, or rich, as in (intellectually) substantive.
You'll notice that I've paraphrased your statement because if we are to be intellectually honest, that is what you really meant to say.
To pull a cliched page out of your book, let's examine the classical meaning of the word substance:
Based upon your rhetoric, it's fair to assume that you lend more weight to the second accepted definition, equating quality as intellectual fodder. I think the problem manifests itself in that you also believe that I defined substance in the same way, at least in our conversation thread. That is where you are incorrect.
My questioning of who defines what is substantive was contextually based on my defining substance as is listed in the third definition, thereby prompting me to use an equally cliched metaphor, which you so astutely picked up on
If you will indulge me and assume that quantity of responses to any two particular forums indicates a level of practical import, let us examine the following syllogism:
forum A has 15 responses
forum B has 200 response
forum B is more substantive than forum A
Irrespective of the quality of the content expressed in either forum, I merely hinted that if the majority of the
Sure, we can delve into the philisophical and semantical nature of the meaning of the word substance, which lends itself to a richer task than dealing with the definition. That would make for an interesting exercise as well. But I think I'm primarily more interested in dealing with the practical content of the question, admittedly a less noble intellectual endeavor.
As an aside, I'm sure that as an intellectual versed in etymology you'll recognize that semantical is derived from the same root Greek words which gave the world semiotic, you know the whole sign, signifier, signed routine ! Unlike you, I don't think it's necessary to further inflate my ego and give a disseration on the meaning of the word and it's significance in the field of logic and philosophy. I'll leave that for you as an exercise.
I noticed that you didn't quote some of my other comments, particulary the one regarding the nature of your personality. I believe I used variants of the words intransigence and pedantic. I am aware that it is unfair to make characterizations based on a few comments but after reading more from your latest comment
drowned out by the bleating of sycophants whose posts were artificially elevated by equally fawning moderators.
I don't feel particularly shallow for having done so.
I truly hope that you are channeling your intellectual gifts so that the rest of the world benefits. Intellectual pursuit, while lonely by its nature (not many people capable of providing sufficient stimuli), can be worthwhile if the pursuer is capable of creating. I find that most of the great intellectuals of history have paid less attention to the intellectual capacity (deficiency) of others (at least those "beneath" them), but instead concentrated on doing.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
However, let's look at my initialcomment and its context. I was in no way attacking Roblimo, or /. I was merely making an observation, which you've just validated with your populist arguments. I understand that there is a generally larger interest in stories such as the one this thread addresses, and that the editors of /. understand this and select their stories with a broad audience in mind.
/. shouldn't be taken by you as a put down, it is merely an observation, which I suspect is shared by others wiser than myself :)
/. brethren. I haven't enjoyed a good debate in quite a while, and based on your comments, I have yet to actually debate at all in this thread :)
However, merely commenting on the fact that more people seem to respond to such posts on
Hmm...I guess in an odd way we do agree on something. I don't think I was offended by your initial observation, though. Annoyed is probably a better word. I'm put off by haughty, elitist intellectualism and I took your observation in that vein. Perhaps I jumped the gun.
I have certainly enjoyed hearing your views however. You are obviously cut from a different cloth than a good majority of our
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
MTV was great for intoducing music videos, but they ought to stay out of producing material like this.
Anyone wanna place bets on whether this show is going to be bad, or really bad?
EC
EverCode
That those who declare that "I am a(n) X", seldom are.
For X you can insert mostly anything:
Guru
Hacker
Cracker
Punk Rocker
Goth
Phreak
Raver
etc.
The people who are deserving of these designations rarely, if ever, claim them for themselves. Rather, their skills are eventually recognised by the community (hacker community, punk rock crowd, raver connumity, whatever).
I'll use the two examples most relevant to me.
I can sling out some pretty good code. Good enough to graduate with honors, and to keep my employer happy. But I don't, by any means consider myself a hacker. I have not done (and don't know if I ever will do) anything that puts me in the league of people I would consider to be true hackers; people like Linus and Woz (two people that I'm sure everyone here would agree are true hackers). You will note, that Linus and Woz's are a couple of the most down to earth individuals (or at least they appear to be). They don't need to call themselves hackers, they just are. Mabye, someday, by the grace of Steve, I'll contribute something in the same league, and the hacker community will recognise me as such. But even then, I'll not label *myself* as a hacker. That's a distinction to be made by my peers.
In the non-technical world my perferred recreation is congert-going. Mostly punk rock and ska shows. I don't label myself, however, as a "punk". There are kiddies who do, however. These are the twinks that go to shows, usually just for the mosh pit, and whine about how much Green Day sucks because they "sold out". Ironic thing is, they'll still pay to go to that very same Green Day show, just so they can show off how punk they are. These same wannabes are the ones who mail order a $25 Deak Kennedys t-shirt (and usually dont know a Single DK song) to wear with the $90 Designer plaid bondage pants (which come complete with an instruction booklet that tells you not to wash them because "dirt is punk"), and spend two hours, and half a bottle of hair gel before the show primping their green mohawk to look just right. When they get to the show, they think the mosh pit is just a place to hit people and not be punished, and will frequently try to start new pits among those who aren't in the mood for moshing that night. Quite often, other people (more expierenced moshers), who DO know how to handle themselves, will get sick of this, and give them a class A beat down. The self-styled "punks" will then go home and say stupid crap like "awesome pit, I got totally thrashed". It's people like this who give the rest of us a bad name. I don't call myself a punk, though I do enjoy the music, the message, the shows, and hell, I even still get into the pit every so often.
The simple, sad, fact is that wannabes exist in any particular subculture. They read about one stereotype or another and imitate it to the Nth degree.
The perfect example of this for the hacker community would be the movie "Hackers". It took every geek stereotype (chain smoking, jolt cola, ramen noodles, etc) and made charicticures of computer people. Most people here bash it as a horrible drama. I, OTOH, laughed my fool head off. I saw it as a great comedy. All the amplified stereotypes were hilarious, and the sheer volume of technobabble put Star Trek to shame (my favorite was the Mac Powerbook with a RISC based P6(?) a vesa bus and a "killer refresh rate"). And besides, any movie with Angelina Jolie....
The sad part is that half the script kiddies in existence are probably because of that movie. The try to dress like the characters, go to raves, call themselves elite, and type like 7h15. This is how an average person probably views computer geeks, and the sad fact is these twinks probably couldn't compile a kernel if their lives depended on it.
The overall point is that the stereotypes are generally untrue. And the people who TRY to fit these stereotypes are anything BUT X (see above). Look at Woz for example. He is anything BUT a "stereotypical hacker". But IMHO, he is, one of, if not THE, best "true hacker" ever. An absolute wizard with both software AND hardware, his designs are elegant in ways I can only dream of emulating. And yet, look at www.woz.org. Not a h4qx3r site at all. Just a profile, webcam (okay wozcam) and thoughts from a man who is a whole lot more humble than he could be, given what he has accomplished. Not a stereotype, a hacker.
Unfortunately, it appears that this MTV drivel will just perpetuate the image of the h4qx3r (damn it bothers me to type like that), and not the hacker.
It's really just kinda sad.
john
Imagine all the people...
I think we need a poll about this. How about: When I code I am wearing, underwear suit jeens, shirt suit of Adam
Its definitely a sad state in the world of hacking now that MTV is trying to jump on the scene.
Now all thats needed is either Tommy Hilfiger of Calvin Klein introduce their Hacker line of clothing
C4lv1n Kl31n
t0mmy h1lf1g3r sp0rt
Why is it all of the sudden everyone wants to jump on the y3ll0w submarine. Its these same corporate morons who are clueless to the industry that distort truths about hacking and then turn around and glorify it with some media-tainted picture of who a hacker is and what a hacker does.
Why don't they throw the creators of PGP, OpenBSD, Unix, and DarkTangent on the show and call it a hacker show?
oops my bad... no commercialism there... sponsors wouldn't pay to see that
Seriously though this is going to be a bigger laugh than AntiOnline... MTV HackerRules starring so1o, Carolyn MyAnal, SE7EN, and the creator of JAIJEN AOL punter...
mwahahahaha kill -HUP 1(sarcasm)
I wonder who's sponsoring this? Oxy? AOL? Calvin Klone?
Want Root?
for geeky enjoyment
www.antioffline.com/mtv.index.html
lazy mans link
Want Root?
Okay, these replys aren't in order, I just kept scrolling up and finding a bunch of more stuff to reply too, sorry if it's really convoluted.
"Another facet of life that teenagers often experience is rebellion. "
And this is bad how? I mean, you just don't say it, so I can't really say you think so, but . . .
Isn't Linux a form of rebellion? It's rebelling against "the man" and all the "bad '133t 4aX0rz'". (Pardon me if my l33t language file is out of date.)
I don't care what your reasons are for using linux, I don't give a ____ if you like you os(s?), but this is getting annoying. It's like those people that claim that life has to suck, or things have to be hard to be worth while. It's completely stupid, and it makes them feel better about their wasted time and effort.
Whether it's reading ol' English poetry, scoring with some hot chick out of your league, or using another OS FOR NO REASON! If you want to learn linux, fine, go ahead. I am trying, but I was born too late, I suppose. But, to claim your way as right is stupid.
"Real hackers, whenever remotely possible, do not concern themselves with Windows. Go get Linux. "
This has to be the dumbest statement I have ever read.
Linux is not the end-all be-all of OS's.
Something, soon, will come, and it WILL outshadow linux. Linus may have put together a nifty OS, and an even better method of distributing it (open source), but it's days are numbered by something I don't know about, nor you.
A "real hacker" will use whatever she or he has to to get what they want done done. Winux, BSD, or Be, or any of the others.
"The fact that the these who claim to be "elite" are using a operating system that is the equivalent of a sanitarium with padded walls and crayons for writing letters can be used to prove that these "hackers" are really technically inept."
Wow, your ad hominim attacks are really insightful and helping your position.
"AOL is a terrible company"
Why? You give no reasons, you simply state it. Irregardless of the truth of your statement, you fail to mention busy signals or 4 hour waits for tech support with their clunky program that anyone who's smart enough minimizes and uses netscape or IE over it.
You are not helping your precious Linux. You're being spiteful.
"Software piracy, a.k.a. "warez" is a common activity of these faux "hackers" because it gives them a sense of doing something that is wrong and more importantly, illegal."
God, how dumb are these words?
"Very."
Every pirate does it because they see a need for what the program offers. Entertainment or photo editing.
What you see as rebellion is simply a matter of practicality for most pirates. "Your class requires powerpoint? That sucks, dude, I got a copy."
And if you say it's okay to do it to MS, then I think you prove my point on how you're not helping what you want to help.
"Anarchy files is a simple extension of the need for rebellion. "
No, the files _are_ not simply that. When I peruse a site full of this information, I do it for a reason, not for rebellion. I want to learn, silly.
"Everyone has used computers."
Bzzt. You don't even bother to qualify with almost. I'm dating a person who only used the apple iie's in our school until I got her a computer. Her parents never used one, don't use the one I gave her, and probably won't if I give one to them.
So, your statement is immediately proved wrong. Especially when you want everyone to use computers the way you obviously want them to. You nearly demand that people use Linux, and that's all.
And so, by extention, I wouldn't have used computers, either, because I don't use linux the way you do. I use it, as, hehe, an antique, a blast from the past, if you will.
"Computer viruses. Personally, I think that anyone that has taken the time to learn assembly should write themself a microkernel so they can network their toaster ovens or electric toothbrushes or do something at least semi-productive."
I totally agree. But, writing viruses is an exercise, really. It's learning to use the system to do what you want.
There are no "bad" programs. Bad thoughts, bad intentions, and programs. Sure, some might crash, some might infect and damage, but only through negligence or malicious intent.
"But alas, it appears some insist upon pointlessly annoying innocent computer users."
Don't use "alas" in your writing, it makes you sound silly, unless your doing it for a reason (period piece, etc.) It contributes nothing here but someone trying to write like they are smart (not saying that you aren't, or are for that matter).
"If you meet any two of those conditions (with possible exception to numbers two, four and six) I would immediatly seek out psychiatric help for your immaturity. "
Huh? What numbers are these? What do they refer to? I think you've finally confused me. Gloat while you can, if you think confusing me is good. Writing shouldn't be like that unless it's for a reason, and you seem to want to be clear with what you're saying.
So, finally, I get to write part of my response.
This has nothing to do with computers. This has to do with acceptance of difference and realization that others have different lives.
I don't want to compile a kernal. Sorry.
I'm totally mistified about modules. Sorry.
I hate Windows crashing problem. Sorry.
I can't even figure out how to get out of vi. Sorry.
I want to learn, but I'm busy. Sorry.
All I want is to get by, and do what I love to do. I'm not a nerd, I shouldn't be here. I work on computers, and I blame the problems on Microsoft because they are part of the problem, but I'm only there for the pay check.
That might be scary for you to accept. But there are more people like me that don't live on computers. I've grown up with them. They're like shag carpeting and astroturf. But I know that computers are not all there is.
For me, the computer is merely a means to an end. It's what I write stories and poetry and stupid essays on. It's what I record music with. It's what puts food on the tables of the nicest restaurants.
And that's what's different between people like those that posted this and me. I respect the effort that people like him (it is a him, right?) put into the programs I use every day.
But I'm not like that. And you're not like me. I respect your role. Please, if you can't respect mine, keep your mouth shut.
MTV showing "hackers" is a publicity stunt. They are a company. They cater to those who watch MTV. I don't watch MTV. I don't own a TV (well, one that works, anyhow). MTV is actually a topic of a(n old) rant of mine on my web site, if that's relevent (the CPCC). They are there for the money, they don't care about your thoughts on their accuracy, and they shouldn't. You're not the target market for their advertisors.
But, of course, even if they are linux freaks, and hump their boxen all day in beowulf cluster formation, someone is going to take a position like the author of the message I am responding to.
Either you can respect what they do, or you can't. But please, unless you have some real criticism instead of the dumb flames, keep your hand on the mouse and scroll by.
Thanks for reading.
Dan
"I hate to say this (because it's true), but if you've been impressed by the quality of ANYthing MTV has done in the last 15 years... "
I dunno, daria has always seemed pretty funny. And some of the videos are cool, even if they don't show them all that often (I haven't seen Stinkfist, err, Track #1, by Tool but once on there), but I don't have a TV, so . . .
Stupid question and stupid person:
"Hey, why you readin'?"
later
Dan
I know MTV doesn't produce videos, but they do show them. Hence, showing them is something they've "done".
They have shown videos that are neat, and daria is funny, which is something that I think they have produced.
But I agree that they should just show the damn 5 minute commercials for the band. M2? I can't get that, even if I had a TV.
bye
Dan
They did it because it's cool. "Hackers" are the "in" people. They are the cream of the crop.
Cream of the crop of losers maybe. If any real cracker would actually agree to be interviewed on MTV, then they really don't care much for their name-sake. Now we're going to have another explosion of script-kiddies out there downloading pre-packaged exploits from your local AOL webpage. I'd actually like to see a *real* cracker interview. That would be interesting to me, but how interesting would it be to the MTV crowd? MTV = Media != Not always the truth. What can we expect? It's sickening, but I'd actually be interested if they made any valid points in this show. In the time being, maybe I'll just plot to blow up MTV. Save all the little infuential boys and girls out there.
...that the mainstream understands nothing? This doesn't just apply to the tech industry, it applies to everything. How many of you are really into something other than computers? Cars, music, stereo equipment, etc. As an example, I enjoy, among other things, high fidelity stereo equipment. What does the mainstream think of when they hear the term hi-fi? Many think of Bose. What do the stereo buffs and audiophiles think of when they think of Bose? Overpriced, overrated, and hyped by marketing. The average (mainstream) consumer is convinced that Bose is the closest thing to heaven, because of the way it is perceived. Most folks want that boomy bass and a 34-channel home theater system, and they'll argue that is can compete with any similarly-priced system. I promise you, if you've ever heard a nice stereo and then heard a Bose, you'd be convinced of my point.
The same things holds true with many other industries. The fact of the matter is, if you give something enough sex appeal (hacking, Bose, or that new "Bats" movie), people are going to be interested. MTV doesn't get much of an audience by showing some pale guy named Erwin sitting in front of a computer with a Unix prompt, Circuit City doesn't make millions by selling a half dozen $15k amps a year, and movies don't draw the crowds without making a bad movie look good.
So just ignore them. I read a report on Defcon that mentioned a kid wearing a shirt: "I hate stupid people." Those four words say a lot about the "mainstream."
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
Um....first off, why the heck would you be announcing that you hacked military computers on MTV? And secong, why isn't he being arrested? This proves that this is a fake (not that there was any _real_ doubt...).
Second, why is MTV doing more and more about crap and socity (which I am proud to _NOT_ be a part of) and less and less music? What does `M'TV stand for?
Third, they say hackers, they mean crackers, I know it's redundant, but worthy of mention.
Fourth, they portray these as the regulr geek/nerd type of person. Just a question, how many of you would _ever_ appear on MTV?
Fifth, s0m3 1337 h4x0rs appearing 0n M7V pr0v1ng 7h47 7h3y c4n t41k f0r h0urs w/0 b31ng c0h3r3n7 w01n'7 d0 much f0r publ1c 0p1n10n 0f g33ks 4nd n3rds 3v3rywh3r3. Get my point?
Sixth, why does everybody get so scared when you say your a hacker (or even a cracker), I mean, except very few, they can't do any real damage at all. I hate the sterotype that we are all evil and out to destroy the world.
Seventh, why does everybody think of these people as the `computer elite'? They download a script, run it, and call it `hacking'. My hamster can do that. Try writing that script, in 4 diffrent languages, for 3 platforms, then you've got a hacker.
Eighth, I wonder if they have ever even been to Slashdot? It would be cool to get some publicity (It has appeared in the Paper (Atlanta Journal-Constitution) once or twice). But, then again, most people would find quantium mechanics, Echolen and geek culture in general boring.
In conclution, well, you figure out for yoursef.
That's my $(2^4*3+1/7%3*2/100)
--Justin Mitchell
"2nd Place is a fancy word for losing" --Bender (Futurama)
Please, *please* tell me that we're not in for a season of "W3rld5 m05t D4ng3rUZ H4x0r d00dZ -- C4uGhT 0n T4p3" specials from FOX...
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
LoU is Legion of the Underground - I think they're the ones who declared "cyberwar" on China or Iraq or some place like that.
I was flipping through channels today and passed both MTV and VH1. MTV had a show about college kids on a boat. VH1 had a documentary on Kiss. Hrm...
Anyone out there remember when MTV actually showed videos? Videos on Music Television, who would have thought.
I wear pants.
The great thing about Mountain Dew is it caffine quotient. 16oz of mountain Dew equals the same amount of a cup of coffee. It's the most powerful nationally sold cola (besides Jolt, which is double the caffine as coffee, and is not available everywhere.)
Personally, I perfer Jolt, but due to where I'm located, its hard as hell to find; but nothing beats a SorBe Zen Blend. I live for that stuff!
This particular part of the letter details my opinions on the profile of their readers and supporters, who strangely enough also seem to fit the profile of the people that will no doubt be interviewed/influenced/choosing to be associated with MTV's "hacker."
I attend a high school here in a suburb of one of the major cities in the united states. Almost everyone here has a computer and it is just as common for them to subscribe to an internet service provider. Lately, it seems that there are many of these teenagers (or even pre-teens) are interested in computer security. (Or so they claim.)
This in itself is not surprising. Computers have played a large role in the shaping of twentieth-century America. (If I keep talking like this they'll put me on the Discovery Channel.) Computers are everywhere. In the corner of every billboard is a world wide web address. You can not go through a box of frozen waffles without being berrated at to "Visit www.cyberwaffles.com for the digiwaffles experience pushing binary envelope!" (I do not know if it exists. If it does, please run to your local establishment of religion and _pray_!). Schools, the establishment where those of the noted age spend hours of each day, are now inseperably intertwined into the ubiquitous (Yeah, that's right kid, reach for your dictionary.) computer-culture of networks, servers and databases.
Another facet of life that teenagers often experience is rebellion. Everyone wants to be James Dean. Marilyn Manson, Korn and Ozzy Ozzbourne* are all examples of rebellious outlets. Others include shoplifting, cigarettes, and flavor crystals in Cinn*a*burst gum. I know people who will commit pointless, but incriminating feats of idiocy in school and then revel in pride when they are called to the assistant principle's office. It's a stage for most people. Most people experience it some time. Beyond this, you can read the volumes of psychiatry on adolescent rebellion ( Cheesy psychiatrist voice: Do you do this to your parent's because it makes you feel like you're getting back at them, Bobby?).
This combination breeds a special type of teenager. It is easy to tell who is and isn't. Let's see here... People of this type often...
o Claim to be "Hackers, Hax0rz, etc."
o Use Microsoft Windows (And every now and then a Mac user.)
o Pirate Software ("Warez")
o Have simple knowledge of the way that MS-DOS and Windows systems work. (i.e. Modify Autoexec.bat, win.ini, etc.)
o Have interest in "anarchy"-type information. (Jolly Roger-Anarchist cookbook, etc.)
o Use AOL or SLIP/PPP type network connection.
o May use viruses, trojans, etc.
o Use simple "hacking" programs
Let me explain these points. First, everyone has some definition of what a hacker is. (A definition which is mostly wrong.) There is all kinds of media surrounding these misconceptions. I will list a few:
o Movies : _Hackers_ (The worst of them), _The Net_, _Masterminds_, the movie in the works by Miramax about Kevin Mitnick, many, many made-for-tv-movies.
o Books: _Secrets of A Superhacker_, _The Happy Hacker's Handbook_ (please whatever you do, don't read this), _Cyberpunk_ (Kevin Mitnick has been in jail a long time unneccassarily and John Markoff helped put him there.), _The Cyberpunk Handbook_ (to the point of hilarity), and many, many "cyber-novels" (a phrase of Upright Citizen's Brigade Fame).
So everyone is pretty sure a hacker is someone who breaks into computers, right? Wrong. See the _Jargon File_ or _The New Hacker's Dictionary_. Anyway, these troubled youths choose to identify themselves as "hackers", because in their definition, "hacking" is what they do.
On to the flawed existence of Microsoft Windows. Windows is the most common operating system on the face of the earth if I am not mistaken. Real hackers, whenever remotely possible, do not concern themselves with Windows. Go get Linux. The fact that the these who claim to be "elite" are using a operating system that is the equivalent of a sanitarium with padded walls and crayons for writing letters can be used to prove that these "hackers" are really technically inept.
Software piracy, a.k.a. "warez" is a common activity of these faux "hackers" because it gives them a sense of doing something that is wrong and more importantly, illegal. This is easily attributable to their rebellious nature, which was discussed earlier. Here I will note the importance of flashy graphics. I have seen many, many "hax0r" webpages that are done entirely in Adobe Photoshop with nothing but selection and Alien Skin Software EyeCandy plugins. Most of these pages (probably yours if you used lots of EyeCandy) have *no* element of graphic design whatsoever. It is easy to impress these so-called "hackers" with this kind of design. They thrive on social support for self-confidence and attempt to impress each other with these pointless images. This is why Adobe Photoshop is a common item on "warez" pages.
Everyone has used computers. Some people know more than others. In this case with the kids I am discussing, they may or may not know more, but by only a thin margin. It is even possible that they may know BASIC programming. Their peers see that they have (slightly) surperior knowledge and may express admiration. This is what builds up the whole "elite" attitude. No one likes an egomaniac.
Anarchy files is a simple extension of the need for rebellion. No one really needs to know how to make napalm. No one reading this, at least. Intrest such as these are purely childish and even less justifiable than software piracy. If the government ever makes an organized attempt at complete totalitarianism, the only thing you will be able to do is insert your head between your legs and kiss your sorry ass goodbye.
The single most popular isp among these wannabes is probably aol. AOL is a terrible company (although they did score points with the Netscape open-source issue) and is the least desirable access provider anywhere. I would rather live in North Korea and eat dog than show up on someone's server log as coming from an aol ip address. Aol isn't always the way modus operandi, though. But reagrdless, they will, with few exceptions, always use a SLIP/PPP networking connections. Why is this relevant? Because it shows their technical hopelessness. I garauntee you that you can sit any of these "hakz0rs" down at a bash shell and the first thing they will try to do is type "win" or maybe "dir *.exe" and finally "help". They need their precious gui interfaces because without them they will drown in their sea of bad MS-DOS syntax. This is statement can be supported by their love for cheesy graphics. Do you think most "31337 d00dz" optimize their sites for Lynx? I didn't think so.
Computer viruses. Personally, I think that anyone that has taken the time to learn assembly should write themself a microkernel so they can network their toaster ovens or electric toothbrushes or do something at least semi-productive. But alas, it appears some insist upon pointlessly annoying innocent computer users. Not that these people that are capable of producing such programs are common in "hak3r" culture. Virus distribution is just another way to feel rebellious and badass while in reality it's the equivalent of setting random people's homes on fire. Pretty cool, huh?
AOHell, WinNuke, port scanners, Back Orifice, the list goes on. It appears that every now and then one of these kids actually figures out the winsock control in Visual Basic and in a malevolent orgy of simplemindedness produces another one of these idiot machines. (My sincere apologies to the l0pht; I don't care how many CERT advisories you've caused, you still can't spell.) I program. In C. No, not Visual C++, that doesn't count. Try the GNU compiler for a real programming experience. Lost without your anarchy symbol pointer and some buttons to push, huh? All of these programs are simple to design. WinNuke is something like five winsock.dll calls, I believe. Back Orifice isn't the genius it's made out to be. Wow guys, I'm in this guys hard drive! Remote access utilities are very common. Back Orifice is not the first or the best,, by any measure. The only difference is that Back Orifice makes a few registry calls, uses datagrams and runs transparently. The people who use such programs think that their designers are really "l33t", when in truth they are just simple socket programming exercises. No magic. The vast majority of the so-called "hacking" population does not know how to program anything at all and uses these programs without caring how they work. Where's the hacker spirit at?
If you meet any two of those conditions (with possible exception to numbers two, four and six) I would immediatly seek out psychiatric help for your immaturity.
Kspett
Kevin "Cash Money" Spett
Ignore your rights and they go away.
Forget the name game "Hacker" "Cracker"
You know who you are. You know what you do.
MTV is food for the mentally challenged.
They can say what they want, but they can't and won't affect what we are.
Trespassing is a thing of glamour, but knowledge is why we're here.
We read we learn we live. That's all. MTV may have destroyed the music scene, but it can't touch geeks.
If you ignore them they will go away.
-vert-
love the penguin
Ok, regardless of our opinions of the MTV hype of the "hacker," I must say that I really enjoyed the colorful naked pictures flashign to the right of the article...
like the movie 'Hackers' then please someone tape it and send it to me -- I just loved that movie so much (like any teksavvy person should).
/. asking for suggestions on what they could cover.. those Jane people should've started a trend with the media!
:)
As I know they'll be embarassed by something that's totally off, maybe MTV should've submitted an article to
And another thing about media.. (and totally offtopic) has anyone seen the new Our Lady Peace video for One Man Army -- is that not the same place where that Barenaked Ladies video was shot?? I mean.. I'm not a big fan of OLP or BNL but I made the connection.. don't you think that's a bit edgy?
Ok, I'm done rambling about Music and MTV.. wow.. maybe that wasn't so off-topic after all.
With mental breakdown issues,
Matthew
_____________________________________
sortakinda.ca | canadian paraphrasing.
If it is true that Mantis from Hack/Phreak Parse is going to be MTV's mystery hacker, he'll represent geeks fairly well, I think. I used to watch Parse(a realvideo show which airs weekly) and got some help from Mantis a few times. He helped me werk with some C bugs I had and a problems with FreeBSD. I think he was a good choice for the special because:
1: Most importantly, he knows what he is talking about. Mantis is pretty up to date on security issues, *nix, and computers in general. He's not just some l33t h4x0r who just d/l'd BO.
2: He is relatively hip. I know this doesn't hold much bearing with _us_, but it will prolly cause people to pay attenion. You could put Larry Wall on MTV talking about CGI exploits and no one would watch ('cept me, go Perl!!! ^_^). Maybe he'll use this as a platform to explain the difference between Hackers and Crackers.
....and I'll bet Linux will never be mentioned...
Wanted: A Bauhaus reformation of society.
Unfortunately, the ramifications of this (and other) shows aired on MTV won't be realized for another 10 years or so.
Nobody reading this would for a second be fooled by the obvious folding, spindling, and multilation of reality that will inevitably be this program (key word here, more on that later). However, Johny 8-12 year old will accept it as the gospel truth. (MTV told me that Sprite tastes good... It does; MTV told me that Super Marios Brothers 20 comes out in a week... It did; MTV told me that evil hackers want to kill me and my family... They do). Ten years from now, little Johnny will be old enough to vote, and MTV will remind them to do so. Of course, the issues are complicated, however, Johnny knows who's good and who's bad, thanks to MTV.
Another case in point, on a recent "Your Rights" bit that they aired, they applauded turning public schools into high security virtual prison camps. They paraded some kids in front of the camera, and had them say (with blank stares of course) that they were glad that they were in uniforms, and that police were walking around in the halls with guns, and things are so much better now that there's a barbed wire fence around the campus.... Fortunately for Sony corp (I think they still own MTV, of course, didn't someone else buy them recently?), the current generation of kids don't know enough that anytime they hear a group of people with zero disagreeing opinions, that they are probably hearing nothing more than propaganda. Too bad there isn't a way to keep them in check... Or at least something close to honest...
I weep for the future. Do your kid a favor, kill their television.
HaXXXor.com - Naked Chicks Teach You How To Ha
Just what the hell is this Mountain Dew, anyway?
I mean, I can infer it's some sort of beverage, but what does it taste like? I've never seen it over here in Britain...
And why is it considered the choice of hackers?
Maybe I'm showing my age here, but I've always preferred a few tins of beer (real beer, not that piss you get in the US, I mean 2.7% alcohol by volume?) followed by a gallon or so of coffee to prop you up in the final few hours of those 70 hour coding marathons we programmers love....
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
And of course, this is a special on crackers, and I'm sure they'll feature a bunch of script kiddies using BO2K and other such things. I suppose that the term hacker, to everyone else but a real hacker, is synonimous with cracker or script kiddie, or even people who run "Warez" sites and stuff like that. The press is a very powerful force, and the "true" term of hacker is probably lost forever except among slashdotters and other geeks.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
When I was in high school, I beat up the geeks and stole their lunch money. Then I found out about the internet and "hacking." I mean, I was like wow, I can run this little script and do stuff to other people. I don't even know what I'm doing half the time, but you should all fear me because my friends and me, we started this new hacker group called Legndary Attackers, Maliciously Evil Reconnaisance Specialists.
just my $0.02
The more "hip" hackers become, the more our generation slips. This cannot be a good thing. From over-generalizations to 13 year olds trying to be like the cracker on tv, all MTV is going to do is belittle us and qualify the next line of punks who do nothing more than run scripts posted to ng's.
(I'm really not a fan of mtv...)
-- Moondog
Well, this is somewhat offtopic but I thought I just might as well mention it. I was watching the discovery channel today, and after commercial after commercial promoting their website (discovery.com) I decided to take a visit and just look around. I ended coming to this page... (http://www.discovery.com/area/technology/hackers/ hackers.html) after searching around for anything on the site that might be in relation to the history of computing (It's Sunday I'm Bored). The page acknowledges Richard Stallman, and just recently inducted Linus Torvalds into discovery's "hackers hall of fame" It also has historical information on certain hacking era's and other stuff. I just thought I might point the site out. It would be pretty cool if discovery put out one of those "On the Inside" programs about hackers with relevant information like that on its webpage.
MTV explores the sinister art of fishing for AOL passwords with AOHell (or whatever it's called).
The following story, if true, reveals all one needs to know about MTV.
Once, back in 1992, they interviewed Bill Clinton, and he said that when he was young his dream was to play saxaphone with Thelonious Monk. MTV's follow up question: "Who's the lonliest monk?"
Take care,
Steve
Maybe this would make a good slashdot poll??
Wiggeda Wiggeda Wack - Kriss Kross
MTV. Music Television. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. The forays into other "popular?" cultural segments should be left to the truly represntative,unbiased, non-advertisement funded television stations. Is there such a thing? I HATE ( I can't emphaisize this enough!) TV and haven't had one in years, but am getting cable for $10 a month, just to shave a bit off my internet access, and to be able to view banal, corruptive (mis)information such as this. I suspect I will be very aggravated after a week of being subject to this kind of 'programming', as will numerous high school aged youths. IMHO, this piece cannot possibly do any good.
I can't believe MTV is directing more shows like this, don't they have anything better to do than direct this junk ?
/. their website, or maybe give them a taste of their own medicine : ).
Hell, I say its time to show MTV who the real crackers are, let's
"In school, I knew nothing about computers, all I did was like, sell weed everynight, drinking 40's and like you know between labs(?) shooting pool and staying out all night, like that's what I did.
When I learned about computers I thought WOW, i could change my grades, or like hack into a bank and do wire transfers and stuff like that. And you know, the glamour of that is what truly is.
Ironic how MTV prepares shows about people 'fighting' the institution when they [MTV] are clearly the institution.
MTV = Media != Not always the truth. What can we expect? It's sickening, but I'd actually be interested if they made any valid points in this show.
Well, that's because a TV show about real hackers writing wonderful code would be a 1/2 hour of watching people type.
Not that that would be boring for some of us. However, there would be no way to get a decent amount of advertising (funding) to get it produced, unless you can get PBS to support it
In fact, the only time I see any sort of high tech workers at the office is when they are pointing out all the perks, and office Nerf battles. What they don't show is that the people pictured most likely are not usually playing games, take their stereos to the office because they never go home, and generally get treated like crap by thier employers.
I'm not a programmer, and I don't work for a high tech startup, so I'm just guessing from what I've seen from programmers I've known over the years, and from what I've read about it. Am I close to being right?
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
I'd rather be a Cracker any day. I've met a lot of pretty nice Hackers on line, but I've also met some that enjoy hurting people and screwing around with web sites and going where no man has gone before kind of stuff. But all of the Crackers I've met so far have been super kewl. And I've learned a lot from them, and I'm still learning. ---nedy------------------------------------------- -"He that falls in love with hismelf will have no rivals." . . . Benjamin Franklin
MTV should be sued or something. All this "documentary" is going to do is flood IRC, et. al. with aspiring bank thiefs.
"c4n y0u 734ch m3 h0w t0 h4xx0r mY m0Mz 84nk???"
or
"1 w4n7 70 b3 31337"
This kind of press glamorizes cracking. Why don't we just teach them how 31337 it can be to rob banks instead?
Get real MTV.
Everyone wants to know why MTV is going to do a show on 'hackers'? Cause it's cheap. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but MTV's shows are becoming, by practice, cheap shows. Think about it. Doesn't REALLY cost a whole lot to produce Beavis n Butthead. Marketing and air-time aside, not a whole lot just to produce. B&B were out the door when they got too expensive. Replacement? Sifl n Ollie... c'mon, ya can't get much cheaper than that. (not to say it's not funny tho. cracks me up.) Big shows? Lessee, Real World is a pretty big show right? They take seven people (who they're NOT paying), and stick em in an apartment. What's that cost em? Rent. Road Rules. Kay, I'll grant that a Winnebago probably costs a lot of money, but still, I don't even think that they put gas in it. (or maybe they do, I dunno.) Anyway, that's my take.
Dustpuppy inside...
Regarding the d00d community. Thou for the most part they are shallow little sociopaths, I suspect a lot of the "distinguished" members of /. download their fair share of warez and porn also.
- Baby boomer parent
I find the dictionary a useful reference, perhaps you should pick one up.
However, since we're on the subject, MTV can be described as a:
- vacuous \Vac"u*ous\, a. [L. vacuus. See Vacant.] Empty; unfilled; void; vacant.
- wasteland n : an uninhabited wilderness that is worthless for cultivation; "the barrens of central Africa"; "the trackless wastes of the desert" [syn: barren, waste]
forOn the other hand, an opportunity to debate ideas with a major science fiction writer in a public forum is:
- interesting \In"ter*est*ing\, a. Engaging the attention; exciting, or adapted to excite, interest, curiosity, or emotion; as, an interesting story; interesting news.
- stimulating n. \Stim"u*late*ing\.1. To excite as if with a goad; to excite, rouse, or animate, to action or more vigorous exertion by some pungent motive or by persuasion; as, to stimulate one by the hope of reward, or by the prospect of glory.
andHowever, should you find that MTV elicits the previous three responses, then perhaps you would feel more at home with the rest of the kiddies watching MTV.
What you consider substantive, the next person may consider trivial. It's all relative to one's own beliefs and way of thinking.
Ahrm. I understood perfectly well what you meant, and I have a very low opinion of post-modern, quasi-intellectual relativism. The whole philosophy of, "it's like all about perspective man" is the reason our country (United States of Artless Letters, or U.S.A) is morally bankrupt. It is the same philosophy that allows the President of our country to rationalizethat oral sex, is indeed not sex. Well it isn't, is it, if you operate under relativism? I mean he didn't think it was sex, so it isn't sex "according to him."
Before the 20th century, such a rhetorical tactic was referred to as sophistry, today individuals unpolluted by so called, "higher education" would accurately describe the president's argument as "a load of bullshit."
To step back a moment. Let's look at the "logical" structure of your claim. That what is substantive is "relative to one's own beliefs and way of thinking"
according to the postmodern "science" of Semiotics,the world is broken into three distinct variables:
sign -------> signifier ---------> signified
Essentially, Semiotics reduces language to a naming process only. We see a tree, we name it a tree - the word tree is essentially a tag, which becomes psychologically united with the object in our brains by an associative bond. In this case, we become the Signifier and the tree becomes the signified and the word "tree" becomes the sign. Semiologists argue that knowing the word tree in no way brings us closer to understanding the nature of the tree, and therefore they argue that the linguistic sign is arbitraryor that we, the signifiers "artificially" create meaning.
So up springs the word, relativism. It's all relative man! Well it's not... The classical definition of sanity is:
On a societal level, this requires that there be some collective understanding of what is acceptable, and what is unacceptable, what is good and what is evil. Civility is impossible without some collective basis or belief system that governs our social interactions. The same can be true about determining the quality of an idea/object/whatever. For example, a BMW 750il is a quality car. This is something most people can agree on, due to the superior engineering in its fabrication, etc. The same can be true of the written word. Regardless of your point of view, it is sane to assert that a book such as War and Peaceis more substantive than a Dick and Jane story. Were one to assert a contrary view, it would generally be perceived as ironic,as the meaning of the statement is contrary to the literal sense of the words. So depending on your audience, after making such a statement, you'll either be perceived as (a) funny; or (b) a moron.
You see it's all about meaning. Yes, language is an artificial system, but it serves a purpose, which is to facilitate communication through creating commonalties of understanding. An exchange of ideas can either be poor, as in lacking in substance, or rich, as in substantive.
As adults, we may not enjoy a particular subject, but we can generally agree as to the degree of depth a particular subject potentially has: we can weigh the worth of Dick & Jane and Tolstoy on the basis of their complexities. That we like or dislike either book is irrelevant and correctly termed value judgements. Without any logical framework, then no intelligent exchange of ideas is possible, and without an exchange of ideas, society begins to deteriorate, as we're seeing in America today.
And, oh by the way, I do not watch TV, therefore I would hardly be the person to gauge whether MTV is substantive or not, for myself. I do read SF voraciously, but I do not personally consider Bruce Sterling "major", as you put it.
Bruce Sterling is Major, as in best-selling, yes (as I meant it in my post), but as a talent, no. I do not personally enjoy his writing, however I do think he is an intelligent writer, and thou I do not agree with him, I was interested in the opportunity to debate with him. Unfortunately, the forum was drowned out by the bleating of sycophants whose posts were artificially elevated by equally fawning moderators.
You see, I don't let others make that determination for me. I have the feeling that you do, on the other hand. If you believe you are an intellectual because you find participating in a Bruce Sterling ask-athon stimulating, I have a Nobel Prize to sell you.
I believe I'm an intellectual primarily because I can, and do think for myself. If you have trouble believing this after a cursory examination of my 48 posts on slashdot, then I really don't care :)
Oh, and for those of you interested in a more thorough definition of relativism, this is a good place to start.
First you accuse me of being a "poseur word jockey" in response to my mildly mocking post, and then when I reply seriously to your relativistic arguments, you accuse me of employing "overbearing, masturbatory, venacular."
You have a funny way of debating, my friend.
"if you will indulge me and assume that quantity of responses to any two particular forums indicates a level of practical import, let us examine the following syllogism:
- forum A has 15 responses
- forum B has 200 response
- forum B is more substantive than forum A
irrespective of the quality of the content expressed in either forum, I merely hinted that if the majority of theHrm, weren't you the one lecturing me on the perils of quantifying value A.K.A. substance? It seems to me that your definition of substantive has finally risen to the top, as curdled milk will float to the top of lemon tea. (ahh a metaphor! perhaps I'm not hopeless after all!)
What your are employing here is populist philosophy, which works well if you're a politician, but poorly if you pride yourself on the ability to think independently.
However, let's look at my initialcomment and its context. I was in no way attacking Roblimo, or /. I was merely making an observation, which you've just validated with your populist arguments. I understand that there is a generally larger interest in stories such as the one this thread addresses, and that the editors of /. understand this and select their stories with a broad audience in mind.
However, merely commenting on the fact that more people seem to respond to such posts on /. shouldn't be taken by you as a put down, it is merely an observation, which I suspect is shared by others wiser than myself :)
As far as the Dickensian character you're attempting to paint me as, save yourself the trouble. Suffice it to say, I personally feel that this all won't mean much in 100 years when we're all worm food, and under this philosophy, *everything* is equally trivial.
"Words, words words...." a depressed Dane.
Did you mean 'hacker' or 'cracker'?
Do you know the diffrence? I don't think you do.
8 Hackers,Desert Island,1 Can of Mountain Dew...you do the math
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
First of all, there's the obvious difference between hackers and crackers. I've seen the commercial from this and the funniest thing about it is what this one kid says "Straight out, I'm not your typical hacker" What the hell does that mean. I'm not sure what MTV is trying to accomplish by airing this. Since most of the information is going to be wrong anyways. If there is a typical hacker/cracker I doubt it's a backstreet-loving, britney spears devotee that spends his time trying to break into his friend's AOL accounts.
Mtv just wants ratings , I stoped watching it when head bangers ball went off the air i flip through the channels and MTV never plays music anymore it seems , its all shows. Get all these windows people all hyped up about hacking now thats just pathetic.
Okay, those people are going to have thousounds of people emailing them because they were submitted on slashdot.org.
:)
It now goes either two ways.
1. "WOAH, What was that?! Let's bring those slashdot guys over!"
2. Ignore us completely as they are unable to respond to that many emails.
3. We flood AOL from all the emails and their servers crash
Okay, I can't count. I think it's the third one
I just saw an ad on MTV for it tonight and the people interviewed look like script kiddies at best. The only thing MTV is good for is providing music videos to capture with a video capture card.
everyone here is very pessimistc, and i must admit i took their whole idea with a grain of salt. But if Mtv does a good job and really does a good job it might be able to inform a lot more people about what a hacker truly is
Sunday night @ 2 AM (actually it's early monday morning) is the only hour of MTV worth my time anymore...
AMP
I'm sure their little preview of Cyberfest 99 is more interesting than this "hacker special" thing.
love,
hdj jewboy
...