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Major PC Makers to Ship PCs Sans Windows
z@ph0d writes "This article tells how Dell, Compaq, and Gateway could announce soon they will be shipping low cost PC's without Windows. No word yet on what they'll ship with, but who knows? "
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i've read on l'abeille that QNX wants to join the "people" market...
also QNX are currently making drivers for WinModem
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
This is a pretty vague article, with hardly any specifics. It doesn't state which OS these companies might be using:
:)
"The makers are taking a variety of approaches, the paper said. Gateway Inc (GTW) is building a line with no Microsoft software whatsoever, and may jointly market it with America Online, Inc (AOL), which recently invested $800 million in Gateway, people familiar with the plans were quoted as saying."
While I wish I could say linux would be the obvious choice, I don't think that would be the case with these two companies. They're not going to go for an open-source OS just because they don't like microsoft. I think they'd rather give themselves a better cut of profits while keeping prices low, which means they'll probably go for some proprietary OS that they control. For all I know AOL may have made it's own proprietary OS. Somehow that idea doesn't impress me much, even if it is cheaper. I don't know if companies like Dell and gateway "mark-up" the windows OS at all, but given the low margins on computers, I doubt it matters anyway. Sure, you can make money selling a linux OS as well, but how much will it bring you when you are selling low end machines? By using their own proprietary OS they can remove a factor of control from microsoft and increase their profit margins while they're at it. Linux would only remove the microsoft factor. They'll just have to hope microsoft doesn't threaten them for this, which I wouldn't count on. Of course I could be totally wrong. I hope I am
Bitchslapped. Neat.
that's not a problem for BeOS or when linux has a journalled fs (extfs3) ready. OR if shut down really means "put it in a low poer standby state" but there's always the chance the user would pull the plug and that would be bad
---
The AmigaOS is getting long in the tooth, but a multitasking robust mature windowing operating systems in 512k may have a market, in say appliance PC's or maybe even mobile phones..
..
Wonder if I'll score above zero
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
Three years ago, I was buying Dell servers without an OS (and not being charged for one). If you ask, they'll do the same for ANY system.
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
I have to agree. I love my Be machine. Booting in 15 seconds is just great and I have yet to crash it. Installation was a no-brainer. Just wish there was a little more app support....the time shall come though.
Can't believe they'd ever ship without an OS - the average consumer would never buy it.
It depends a LOT on what you consider an "Average Consumer". I suspect a fair few business users could manage quite nicely with Ghost installs of $OS_OF_CHOICE (We do this already; rather than install many-many company-standard packages, we install ONE machine, take a Ghost of it, and then impress that image onto the remaining machines in the batch.
To be honest, I can see this simplifying the job of $HELLDESK_PHONE_GUY - ship a single, bootable disk (possibly even a floppy!) that tests all the hardware shipped as standard and/or as options - all the user has to do is reboot+disk, and click a "test item xxx" button when told to. Any or all OS problems would then be the users', not the support guys - other than to ship out patches if needed.
--
-=DaveHowe=-
Can't believe they'd ever ship without an OS - the average consumer would never buy it.
(sorry for the typo - reposted)
It depends a LOT on what you consider an "Average Consumer". I suspect a fair few business users could manage quite nicely with Ghost installs of $OS_OF_CHOICE (We do this already; rather than install many-many company-standard packages, we install ONE machine, take a Ghost of it, and then impress that image onto the remaining machines in the batch.
To be honest, I can see this simplifying the job of $HELLDESK_PHONE_GUY - ship a single, bootable disk (possibly even a floppy!) that tests all the hardware shipped as standard and/or as options - all the user has to do is reboot+disk, and click a "test item xxx" button when told to. Any or all OS problems would then be the users', not the support guys - other than to ship out patches if needed.
--
-=DaveHowe=-
It's not going to decrease the price much, OEM's don't pay much for Windows anyway, so not including it is only going to drop the price ~$50 at most. If they are able to lower it more than that then they've been gouging you all along.
I think Microsoft has beat expectations every quarter for 10 years. There is actually another way to beat analysts forecasts. Microsoft manages the forecast by talking down expectations. You can calculate the true sales for microsoft by taking the reported revenue and adding the change in deferred revenue. The true sales are about 10% higher than the reported sales. If they stopped recording unearned revenue then they would have reported sales of 6 billion even if they never sold another unit of NT, office etc.
BUT most of the documentation is written for a command prompt. Sure, most people will see the icon and think, "Oh, this accesses my floppy drive" but if you went to linux.com and tried to find that, it would tell you, in very arcane and technical language, how to do it from the command prompt. Permissions suck too. Upgrading kernels is a bitch (still haven't figured it out) while in Windows it's a self-executable file you download when a dialog box pops up informing you you need to download stuff from MS's website. Lack of some programs that are only on Windows machines is a pain too. No Internet Explorer (yes, most people do prefer it over Netscape). I've read about the hassles of setting up PPP (I myself have cable, and it was as easy as Windows). Rebooting wrong screws everything up (I GUARENTEE(sp) that 3/4 of the new Linux users will reboot by just pressing the reboot button when X crashes, and screw up their file systems.) Windows was designed/marketed to be a consumer OS. Linux was designed/marketed to be a server OS. And it's easy to tell it when you compare them together.
Oh no! Now you've gone and said the A-word and we will have to kill you.
Support for Linux is going to cost these companies a hell of a lot more than $1/machine. And don't start spouting about usenet etc for support, if someone buys a system from Dell/Compaq/Gateway etc and something goes wrong the user is going to be calling the OEM. Add in the extra cost that an experience Linux support rep is going to cost and there won't be more than a few dollars difference between a system with Windows and one with Linux.
The marketroids at Dell doubtless understand this phenomenon better than either of us and would price the machines accordingly. The profit margin on Linux-based machine would doubtless be greater, and they'd be doing their best to sell those rather than the Windows. In the situation you hypothesize, I would think they'd charge slightly more for the Linux-based machine while touting its improved reliability. Or, if the phenomenon is not really that strong, they might go ahead and charge only slightly less for the Linux-based box.
Maybe this is the best thing that could happen to Microsoft® - maybe they're just letting it happen or quietly encouraging the rise of alternatives - maybe then they can focus on quality speciality software like Office2K and leave "Windows Everywhere!" and World Dominion(TM) behind and let the monopoly charges fade away THE SAME WAY that the monopoly case aginst IBM was just dropped in the early 80's when it was patently obvious that the rise of PC's made monopoly charges irrevelent.
Chuck
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Right now it doesn't - BeOS promised that it an OEM would preinstall BeOS they'd give it to them for free.
God does not play dice - Einstein
Not only does God play dice, he sometimes throws them where they
I was chatting to Computacenter (massive EU reseller) about Linux on the Proliant range. They were big fans of the idea, and said that Compaq would be supporting Linux on all Proliant models shortly.
That doesn't mean Compaq are selling boxes direct with pre-installed Linux. It means that Compaq are supporting their resellers who wish to install Linux on Compaq boxes and ship those to customers.
For corporate sales, most of the market is via large resellers who provide value added services, so this is significant stuff.
-----
This isn't targeted at the "average computer user." Nor is it targeted at people who want to run an OS other than Windows. It's targeted at people who don't already have a computer and want an Internet appliance.
I can see this being positioned similarly to the iMac, which is first an Internet device, second a computer (according to Steve Jobs, anyway). The advertising for this device will just delete the "computer" part. It will probably also be like the iMac in that it will be all in one case and won't really look like a traditional computer. I bet it'll have a tiny hard drive and will probably be in other ways unsuitable for people who want to run a real OS anyway. I don't think this is quite the victory for the anti-MS crowd some people around here think it is.
I like this idea on the surface, but one thing scares me a bit. If Dell decides to ship some of these machines with Windows, and some without, the ones using Linux/BSD/BeOS or whatever they use will undoubtably be cheaper. If I were a clue-free end user, that would imply to me that they were inferior OS's, since the hardware was identical. Now, we all know it's not true, and we've fought similar battles before, but for this to be a positive for us, we need to be very vocal about the fact that just because these machines are cheaper does not mean they are inferior. I mean, if I saw two identical guitars, one of which was made in China, and the other in the US, and the one made in China was cheaper, I would assume that the one made in the US was of higher quality. This, however, is a result of my lack of knowledge. For all I know, China has better processes in place, and the only reason it's cheaper is that they have cheaper labor. I think we must tread carefully into this area, and it can really pay off.
If you need to point-and-click to administer a machine,
Wow! Although I am quite sure that none of these companies are going to abandon Microsoft altogether anywhere in the near future (read: most of their money will still be made from Windows PCs), this has got to be fantastic news!
Sreeram.
Along this line, consider: There are two free versions of (yes, I know it sounds goofy, but think about it) MS-DOS out there. Some sort of simple GUI (GEM? an OEM GUI) that provided only a browser and an e-mail app? That wouldn't be that hard to write if you just made it a context switcher instead of a multi-tasker. Kind of a beefed-up PalmOS. I'm not seriously suggesting this is the case, but I feel like Linux/*BSD would be overkill for a machine like this.
/etc/passwd and there you have it. The /etc/skel would give each new user an account the fires straight into Netscape. The users would never see a shell.
OTOH, it would be easy to hide all the complexity of Linux/*BSD by having accounts that add users, start-up and shutdown the machine, and dial-in and disconnect. Just specify the appropriate commands as shells in
I don't know what it is. Its just kind of fun to know the market is changing.
Diversity is good. Whatever they're going to use, it's better than no choice at all.
Some may remember the 'Windows Refund Ordeal' where by people were attempting to return their copy of win9x to the manufacture in order to get a refund. Its possible that this is in response to these attemps.
Here is betanews.com's synopsis of the events.
http://betanews.com/article.p hp3?sid=story36a9330ea874f
I think this is great, I don't see how anyone can disagree with that... except MS I suppose.
-Ecc
We talked to our local computer supplier about getting no OS boxes. They were fine with that except that they had to have a way to test all the parts of the box that we wanted. A 'burn in' phase to let it run for a day or two to make sure that everything works. Since they know they we just format the drives as soon as we get them, they put DOS on them just to make sure the damn things boot.
Most places probably have a similar dilema.
-- Are you an EFF member yet?
I very much doubt it'll ship with Linux. Read the article: they're targetting the WinTV crowd with this. Can you see them getting used to logging in / out of Linux? Shutting down instead of hitting the power button? Dealing with fsck() ?
This isn't about PC Manufacturers being Hardware people again. This is about PC Manufacturers jumping onto the cheap internet computing bandwagon. They announce cheap, "disposable", non-MS PCs within 24 hours of Sun re-launching their NCs? Guess what they're trying to protect, folks!
The article isn't an anti-MS, or anti-Windows article. It's a pro-cheap-network-computing article.
Discussion of OS for these puppies - or rather the OS that will be delivered with them from the factory - is nearly irrelevent, except for the fact that they're not automatically going for MS's OS-du-jour (Hmm.. targetted for early next year... Win2000 comes out Feb 17.. Coincidence?).
henley, who has been watching too much X-files and sees conspiracies everywhere today.
--
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
i didn't know anglophones use "sans" for "without", french rules
:)
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the canon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
-- William Shakespeare
Most people just say "sans" to sound educated, like they read Shakespeare.
Don't be so sure about that. We are at the point where many, many novices have PCs (and thus Windows licenses) already. I suspect that a lot of people would buy a "blank" PC and copy their hard drive over to save a couple hundred bucks, using the inevitable techie brother-in-law to deal with the inevitable driver crap.
The cake is a pie
Actually, the big vendors are asking "No?" to their customers and listening for what they hear.
Nothing that anybody here on Slashdot can say or do answers that question. Wait and see.
I just wish that they'd say it the right way, "sawn" instead of "sands". (Or better yet, not use it at all.)
Downside- the first time the user turns it off without 'shutting it down.'
Or the second time,
or the third time.
Definitely before the hundredth time.
The hard drive then says "LI" at them the next time the machine is turned on, and back it goes to the vendor.
Can I be the first person to say Hooray! I hate having to pay the extra $$ to have them do a bad job of installing an operating system that i don't want in the first place. It's about time.
Though I must say I don't think I want Dell or Gateway installing LINUX on my PC either. I guess I'll have to re-install anyway.
"When I look down I miss all the good stuff, When I look up I trip over things..."-Ani DiFranco
When you are sitting on $20 billion in cash, and absolutely no debt... you tend to have some staying power :)
Do you know how many stock options Microsoft has outstanding? Once their stock starts taking a hit and the investors get nervous, that $20 billion will start evaporating.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are not necessarily my own, as I've not yet had my medication today.
Yep.
The guy at the shipping dock looks at the clipboard, and figures out which of the twenty different configurations of "universal low cost web computer" the customer needs before slapping on the mailing label. And of course the customer knew which one to ask for in the first place.
And the Tech support guy who gets the inevitable call wondering why it doesn't work has a simple 35 box checklist which directs which 75 page script to use in determining what the customer's problem is.
Yes. It sounds like we can make a million bucks with this!
Oh yeah! If I could buy a box for cheap without having to deal with the M$ hassle, I'd do it. It would have to be cheap though, because I'm broke. :)
CT
Constitutionally Correct
They have to get paid somehow. Most of these guys don't take a salary. They're just taking out some money to live off of. And congrats on being able to read an annual report. Your next step is being able to understand one!
I'm going to guess they're either going to ship Redhat or OpenLinux. I don't think anyone is ready to ship BeOS yet.
I do however think we're a long way from getting a computer with a blank hard disk from a large manufacturer.
Hopefully they'll start shipping "alternatitive operating systems" with laptops as well, cutting out the Windmodem and other Windows-only devices.
--
Donald Roeber
Donald Roeber
Generating 2048 Bits of Randomness...
Screw that!
X-Emacs Minesweeper.
Dont bash me - I'm not a specialist - but do you think it is possible do device a simple OS from scratch only for that purpose?
Regards,
January
The Gates foundation has the equivalent of 200M
shares of MSFT stock. Gates has reduced his
holdings by 360M shares in the past two years,
which is essentially the time period the foundation
has been funded also. So 160M shares were still
sold outright.
Now, the foundation, if it is prudently managed,
should not keep all it's assets in MSFT stock,
it should diversify. Their annual report does
not cover what assets they hold specifically.
what's the point? Most people I know who have any clue about what they're doing just assemble their own systems. The others... use Windows. Who are they trying to target here? If the average user sees that it doesn't have Windows, I seriously doubt he'd even consider buying it. I think these types of people are by far their largest customer base. I don't see this as having any effect on Microsoft.
Roses are red, violets are blue. I'm a schitzophrenic, and so am I.
Yet another compelling reason to push for DSL everywhere, or better yet Fiber to the curb and ATM everywhere. :)
(B) + (D) + (B) + (D) = (K) + (&)
First thing I do when I get a pre-built machine is format the drives. Even if I'm doing a corporate install where I'm putting 98/NT on the machine I don't want their install. Most of them are bloated with crappy software and mis-partitioned.
Plus it should bring the price down a bit.
you can use opera for BeOS, and there's a mozilla port also.
note that NetPositive 3 for BeOS handles HTML3.2 and javascript, not too bad... of course there's no java support but who cares? java sucks anyway!
support for HTML4 and CSS would be great also in N+
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
Hm... I think Linux has great potential in the area of "information appliances". Linux has a number of distinct advantages:
It's portable. Linux will most likely run on any of the systems that Gateway comes out with, as long as they don't ship Windows-only hardware with the boxes. Any portability issues can be resolved quickly, in-house, for the simple reason that the companies will have the source code.
It's cheaper. How can you undercut free? I don't see any companies trying to *pay* OEMs to use their OS. Though BeOS is supposedly free to OEMs that will use it on their products...
It's more stable. Hey, I know. Sometimes Linux crashes, but if these computers are just "information appliances", whose sole purpose in life is Web surfing and e-mail, then it wouldn't be too tough to fine-tune the system until it becomes pretty damn hard to make it go down.
Linux handles networks a hell of a lot better. If your ISP uses some sort of weird system for authentication, Linux probably supports it a lot more easily than Windows. And if, for some ungodly reason, you need to use non-standard protocols to communicate with somebody, you don't need $300 3rd-party add-ons to make the two systems talk.
Linux is just as user-friendly (if you do it right). Gnome, KDE, and a number of other projects make for interfaces that either match Windows (sometimes by looking just like it!), or even surpass it (KDE, WindowMaker, Enlightenment). Once people get past the "dear god, it's not like everything else I've ever fucking used" factor, it will feel like second nature.
I think Linux has quite a potential in the market. Funny that the article didn't mention that.
While I'm all for some healthy competition for MS, I can't help but wonder if this will really replace Windows with something better. Would it really be that big of an improvement oif users bought an equally restrictive OS that just crashed a bit less?
The largest problem I see with MS products is that they don't put the user in control. Wizards DON'T help! They just make up for a bad or confusing interface - or perhaps just a complex interface that is poorly documented.
Is this new product going to put the user in control? Or is this a non-MS OS directly competing with the goals of MS?
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
It's true that these hardware vendors now stop shipping Windows along with the PCs.. but.. I don't think we can all assume that Gateway, Dell or Compaq is all going to ship Linux or any *nix instead. The simple reason is because most corporation(like the one I am working now) have their own NT or 95 CD image and they don't want to pay two copies of Windows License. They have already paid for their NT image license and so there's no point for them to have another copy come with the machine.
My thoughts exactly. However, whatever OS it is, it could be a Good Thing. Here's why: companies like Dell, even though they have Linux desktops, also have evil Winmodem policies. So, you can get a ``good'' Linux desktop from them, but you're going to get screwed with a) no modem and b) second-rate mice (M$ IntelliMouse is not a major win).
So, basically, when you buy a Linux desktop from Dell, most people (who actually use Linux.. yet I doubt most of these people would buy Dell) would want to a) replace the mouse with something from Logitech b) replace the keyboard with.. the Happy Hacking Keyboard, of course! and c) get a LAN modem and put that damn Ethernet card to good use. =P
Of course, none of that helps Joe Public, and it doesn't help us stamp out second-rate hardware built to be Windows-only (Winmodem proliferation leads to.. suffering) or work with optimum performance only with Windows (Sound Blaster, anyone?). Knock out IntelliMice and we're really in business!
Back to my original point, however: If Dell or anyone else ships an ``Internet machine'' it's obviously going to need a modem. And since it won't be shipping with Windows, it will need a real modem, which is a Good Thing for everyone except Microsoft (which means the GNU/Linux, *BSD, and every other crowd can rejoice about the same thing.. a rare occurance, to say the least).
~ Kish
And I disagree. I think that Microsoft told the truth in the trial about the changes in the market that were then in play. I think they were right, that the market had changed, and that there was, and is, no need for government oversight or supervision of the software market.
Before the crybaby companies had even started whining to the Justice Deparment, the market was changing.
As a BeOS user, I'd say the problem is not the web-browser, it's all those damn non-pure-HTML thingies (good tech term there)! :)
:))
Ever have those days when you wish client-side scripting had never been created? Or wish for the good ol' days when web sites had maybe one or two images on them? Ahhhh....
(of course, I'm kidding about the 'problem isn't with the OS I use, it's with everyone else' bit...well, partially kidding
-beme
-beme
1971
I should have said "Windows" instead of M$ software.
cheers,
If anything, the proliferation of themable UIs just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the end user.
If anything, the proliferation of theme-able User Interfaces just goes to show that people have an insatiable need to futz around with the computer, rather than using it for anything productive and non-self-referential.
Indeed. I see the trend. First Amiga software and hardware. Then Amiga software only. Then nothing at all Amiga.
Yes. It seems like a trend to me.
And it seems like a positive trend.
I want Rubbermaid to purchase the Amiga trademark. For a fine line of trash containers and wastebaskets.
ehhh ... no *wipes you off his lens*
yeah
In my opinion this has a lot of possibility on the surface, but it isn't anything that most of the people here are going to buy or even get that excited about. The only positive thing I see coming out of this is that MAYBE in the future "The Big 3" will sell us something with Linux installed, or no OS at all. I use to sell computers for Compaq, and let me tell you, there is no way in hell they are going to put something on the machine that will confuse people. The people that buy Compaqs, Dells, or Gateways are mainly people that want something easy to use, that offers support, and that has a reputation. I am willing to bet that about 95% of would never even consider buying one of those computers for a variety of reasons, price, configurations. We are all able to support our own machines, and we do not need to pay for the "NAME" And antoher of my personal opinions is that if AOL is involved, I am staying far away from it. Look what netscape has become since they bought it. Not much. I am not interested at all if AOL is in the picture. Just a few of my thoughts. Woody
Perhaps it's going to be as simple as something like Caldara's dos, running their dos based ppp and web browser. With that setup they could use some very low performance hardware and still get the job done. Perhaps even at a price that would compete with say a webtv box.
That probably means they'll build a custom-made, low-feature OS whose sole purpose is to boot up, load a Web browser (AOL? Yuck.) and connect to the Internet. That's hardly a breakthrough for Open Source, however much we hold our breath.
Lemme explain: even IF they suddenly decided to put some sort of stripped down, alternative Open Source OS on these boxes (say, a light version of OpenBSD), that would still fail to impress the general public, because this type of install won't be a showcase to alternative OS's power. It'll just mean the computer will run in a specialised, narrow focus. So you'll be hard-put to convince your grandmother Linux is so great.
Now, what I do find interesting here is the idea of a Web browsing machine that doesn't use Internet Explorer. Is that what AOL had in mind when they said Netscape Communicator 5 wouldn't come out? Maybe they're trying to attack the Web-surfing market from another angle, by indeed building a Web browser that will give IE a run for its money.
And, pray tell, what difference is there between Win98 w/ IE 4, and a dedicated machine w/ a Web browser? Not much. Both browsers will be at the core of the OS, and the whole box will run on a single manufacturer's products.
But by starting by offering a cheaper alternative, it's not far-fetched to see this trend growing, and perhaps one day Netscape (if that's who they choose) will have its own dream of having a fully-integrated desktop linked closely to their browser. Ten years from now, it could be a heck of a competition to Microsoft.
But I'm not holding my breath. I just hope they'll consider some of the work done in the Open Source movement, and perhaps push it on the mainstream. This article is misleading in its suggestion that computers will soon ship with alternate OS. This is not the point here.
Besides, how long will it be before someone installs a custom distro of Linux on one of these boxes?
"Knowledge = Power = Energy = Mass"
The trial showed how Microsoft had OEMs, even Intel, on a tight leash. With the trial in progress, I believe Microsoft has had to restrain itself and let the OEMs do things Microsoft wouldn't want them to do, like install Linux or ship PCs without Windows.
I've always felt that even if Microsoft is acquitted or is not slammed as hard as it deserves, if the trial goes on long enough---and I think we're almost at that point---the end result will be victory, simply because even just restraining Microsoft indirectly has been enough to allow market forces to work the way they are supposed to work: without the undue influence of monopoly power.
----------
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
Can't believe they'd ever ship without an OS - the average consumer would never buy it.
Shipping a full(ish) version of Un*x is also very unlikely: the costs for AOL of building helpdesk systems to cover X, a shell and Internet applications would kill this idea.
Most likely idea: free Un*x kernel for stability with no user shell. Configure through a couple of control panels. If the user rings with any problems, first support option is to re-install from CD.
Apple had a similar idea with the crippleware bundled with Performa series. Universally hated idea, but they probably saved a ton of cash on support costs: if the average user doesn't need access to a config file, lock them out!
---
this may be moot after the dust settles in the anti-trust trust. A ruling of fact is expected tomorrow.
These PC companies are feeling friskly because the spotlight has been put on Microsoft's business practices. If Microsoft gets a free ride from the judge, the laizze-faire (sp ?) attitude currently expressed by Microsoft will change.
I sincerely hope this is the beginning of the end of Microsoft's stranglehold on computing.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Remember that thing where pc makers have to pay microsoft for every computer, windows or not... even if you told them no OS at all... is this still how it works?
If so then it seems like MS would still get $$ for every computer with linux/whateverthesehave, which would just be absorbed into the price but the principle still sucks...
The Wall Street Journal had two articles on this today (no, they only have a paid site - I read the copy we get in our non-profit's library).
The first one said that they estimate 30-40% of all boxes shipping for consumers this year will be Windows-less, but this includes BeOs and Palm type boxes which are bailing from WinCE, as well as set-top boxen. Some of them were going to use Apple/iMac (kind of confusing, that one).
The second article said that some MSFT technical indicators indicated, for the first time in decades, that forward revenue (upgrades for Windows, Office, etc) at MSFT were down a very large amount (10-20%), whereas the stock has counted on these increasing every year and thus commands high P/E ratio as a result. Which means that the end may be nigh.
Figure in mid-January they'll release stats showing that MSFT boxen were a drastically smaller (70%) amount than usual.
Will in Seattle
aol + netscape == non-M$ aol.
new, netscape driven aol + star office,
run server-side.....equals a rentable web surfing
and office client that you can access either from
your existing home pc (why deal with
windows if all you do is chat and type letters?)
or buy a thin client of assorted sizes,
shapes, and perhaps imacish colors.
welcome to the future of home computing for the
non-techie.
That's what my Gateway box does now, and if you push the button while its off, the box starts booting. Surely this couldn't be too difficult.
--------------------
BeOS is a nice platform, but unfortunately there really isn't a great web browser out for it yet.
This is true, but the earliest we'll even see these machines announced is early next year, according to the article. That's not too far away, but it's enough time to get something together. Net+ isn't bad, Opera's coming along, Mozilla's a bit behind, but AOL could probably get Netscape ported over if they wanted to.
I know Slashdot is mainly a Linux crowd, but I think BeOS would be a great choice for this application. If I had to sell a newbie on the concept of non-MS operating systems, I'd probably use Be to do it. It's easy to use and very quick. Makes a great first impression, and that's obviously a very important issue in this case.
There are ways around this as well. You can mount most of the partitions as read only (with the exception of /home /var /tmp), and you can mount those partitions so that they fsync automatically.
Or you could simply use the Linux FAT32 filesystem drivers and put these partitions on a FAT32 drive. After all, it's good enough for consumers _now_.
Caching the filesystem in memory is a _feature_ for what I use it for, but you _can_ turn it off, and you certainly can protect the parts of the hard drive that contain your kernel and boot loader.
Most of the people that are of the opinion that Linux isn't ready for the consumer simply do not have the Linux experience necessary to really know what can be done with Linux. They assume that Dell will do as crappy a job of installing Linux as they have, and therefore conclude that Linux is unusable for the unwashed masses.
KDE's minesweeper game, dummy. :)
You thought getting those little AOL disks in mail was annoying!
Just imagine when AOL started UPSing whole computers to everybody, with 20 free hours of AOL-OS!
101010.org
the simplest answer
If you compare MSFT's proxy statements from two
years ago to the Sept 1999 one, you find that the
directors of the company as a group have reduced
their ownership stake from 35.8% to 25.7%.
The breakdown by person is:
Gates 22.3% -> 15.3%
Allen 7.6% -> 5.0%
Ballmer 4.9% -> 4.7%
Others 1.0% -> 0.6%
Are they getting out while the getting's good?
Journalists use "sans" because it's three characters shorter than "without." If you'd ever had to write a 2-column headline in 72-point Helvetica Black, you'd know what I mean.
Slash has nothing to do with Slashdot.
While this interesting (but not surprising) move by the major OEMs does spell some trouble for Microsoft (which sounds like some good news to me... maybe they'll fix some bugs now to gain market share), it's still not what I would really like: to be able to buy a Gateway or Dell (I really don't like Compaqs) with NO OS installed. I like some of the systems that said companies produce, I like the warranties and support that they have on their hardware (much easier than having to deal with 8 different vendors when things break... you can just call Gateway and say, "it's broken," and they send you new one). I just hate having to pay for software that I'm not going to use.
I understand why they don't support other OSes. Most people who are calling with problems are completely clueless, so their support techs have to walk them through troubleshooting. (They have to do this so that they're not replacing hardware when it's just software configuration problems). Now imagine if you're (well, not you... you wouldn't be this dumb) running the latest version of, say, OpenBSD on your new Dell, and you can't get sound to work. You call them up, the tech says, "Uh... click on start." And you say, "Uh... no." You actually don't know if the card is broken (unless you've confirmed this in an OS that is officially supported by the hardware vendor). Gateway doesn't know if you're right, lying, or stupid. Are they going to ship you a $110 piece of hardware because you think it's broken? Heh, no.
So as much as it would be nice, I don't see the OEMs spending money to support other OSes that represent microscopic market share.
*sigh*
--
--
"In Cyberspace, no one can hear you be sarcastic"
> This matters most for people who [...] already *OWN* a copy of windows from a PC they are replacing
Unless you actually bought a full retail version of Windows for that previous machine, you can't do that. OEM-provided Windows licenses are usually locked to the machine they're bundled with.
Look at the iToaster, a BeOS based machine, intended for the very non-tech market. Be has demonstrated a version of their OS for the floppy and embedded markets. It's easily customizable, and don't forget, Gasse promised to provide free copies to any PC manufacter willing to pre-install Be.
If I was looking to build one of these, Be is the place I'd go for the OS. The file system and boot speed are both reasons enough to choose Be over most any *NIX variant. Open source is not really a factor in this equation...stability is, the ability to survive a power cycle is, and speed of booting is.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
These are "Internet boxes", which suggests that the hardware might, from a user standpoint, be as special-purpose and non-changeable as the OS on any PlayStation or WinTV box.
I have one of them all-in-one-no-name cheap mobo's and it has SiS chipset and and SiS vid chip. Both work fine with Linux and the newest X. Winmodems? Who needs them when there are cablemodems and DSL :)
I have to return some videotapes...
That's THE MOST hysterical POSTERior i've ever red.
If I read the article correctly, Gateway and AOL are going to market this jointly. I'm making quite a jump here, but does this open the door for AOL to create a new OS? They already knocked off IE and Netscape to make their own browser, what's stopping them from a new OS?
I can see it now, just in time for Christmas. Some typical family shopping and look, a shiny new computer with AOL already installed! Just give it all the necessary info (credit card number, phone number, DNA sample, next of kin, etc.) and the parents feel better because they aren't supporting that nasty old monopoly Microsoft. You have a warm and fuzzy feeling yet?
If they do market a non-Windows system, will it be compatible with 90% of the software available in the free world? Do they have software maker guarantees for compatibility? (Heck, even stuff written for Windows doesn't work under Windows) Is this just a move to cut down on the manufacturers labor and make the consumer install an OS? The companies probably save on packaging and shipping weight also if they don't include all that wonderful documentation.
It may be the first step in releasing Microsoft's deathgrip on PC's as we know them, but what price are we going to pay?
Fast, cheap, correct. You get to pick two.
You seem to be the only one so far who noticed " Microsoft is rushing to keep PC makers in its fold, working with them on MSN Web Companion, an Internet machine tied to its MSN Internet service, the report said. " So, what it this web companion ? Whose *free* software are MS going to *give* ? I can't find any reference to this at MSN. Can you imagine the market power of MS & GPL - too ghastly to contemplate! Get the newbies in, get them tame to the name, and then ... darkness
The rest of us just pick it up much like we pick up language in general: from hearing and seeing it used by others.
And for the lazy, sans is only one syllable whereas without is two.
!!! Remember a while back there were rumors of Gateway bringing back the Amiga. Then the news was it was just going to be the OS, and not a whole machine. Well, TADA.. here you go
In recent years I have used Windows 95/98/NT, Linux, and OS/2(that was great technology) and BeOS. I have to say BeOS is my favorite, its elegant simplicity, speed and stability can not be beat. I'm not fanatical about anything although I am happy that there will be more non-Win32 boxes sold. It makes life more interesting.
Without a doubt this is a move towards an AOLOS (maybe that's what they'll call it). That's why this story didn't excite me too much. So it looks like more and more people will believe that AOL IS not only the Internet, but is in fact synonymous with computer.
NC's aren't going to work in the home, they can't make the price point (which seems to hover around $200), and what sane individual wants to rent applications. NC's are the PC equivelent to DIVX, at least for the home market.
+&x
I know they can't be too happy about this, and having to support the lousy M$ code. Maybe it would Do Them Good to retrain all their service technicians in (insert favorite OS choice here), so that when a user calls up with a horrible windows problem (corrupted kernel32, bsod, etc.), they can say "Sorry, we don't support that OS anymore". Instead, they can do some reasonable support work on (insert OS here), and not deal with the stupid problems that users face today. Perhaps we're all forgetting that the reason users are idiots are that the OS treats them like idiots. Install (insert OS here) that doesn't treat them like an idiot, and perhaps the number of "idiot calls" to support centers will go down.
Personally, I like the help file in enlightenment: it covers everything while being short and to the point. However, the online help in windows fscks, and it treats you like a complete moron. Maybe that's why the tech support centers get so many calls?
With this, the "Big 3" etc. won't have to spend so much time and energy supporting a flaky, unhelpful, and idiotic OS. Horray for them - they're moving in the right direction.
Visit
Below is from another post. He is dead on about the configuration. Use Java as your platform and then your interface will be very portable using compatiblity libraries for system dependant calls (duh). You then have almost a set-top box. You can control the connection and even download updated information or upgrades during off hours. Think of the support options this gives you, the support guy can dial into your machine and boot into a maintenence partion to fix your system.
Using Mandrake Linux 6.0 or later you get a free copy of the most well known and used distribution of Linux.
They are trying to use Intel's 810 chipset and a cheap CPU. The problem is the 810 chipset has everything supported through USB and the modem is a softmodem, even worse then a WinModem piece of crap. USB isn't fully supported by Linux yet so you can't have mouse support. The 810 has a emulation mode to let it use a USB keyboard so the rest of the machine doesn't know it isn't a normal keyboard. These cheap motherboards have a sound card built it which really increases the Linux support problems.
You end up with a cheap machine you can't do anything with until the hardware makers give you specialized drivers or some hacker whips up one. Neither is something big PC OEMs want to do.
It's funny though, watching PC/Windows experts not having a clue about how to install/navigate/use a Linux system. Being an expert in MS proprietary software gets you squat in the rest of the industry, although I did hear that someone started porting the COM libraries to Linux. As a side note, I find it interesting that one of the more useful features of ATL are templates that wrap your interfaces in classes so you don't have to worry about their scope anymore. I wonder why that "feature" wasn't included in COM to begin with.
Don't get me started on COM...
I disavow all knowledge of this post, its a pigment of your fimagination
--- Quoted post below ---
I have no idea how this will be implemented, but here's how I would do it. Create a "system" partition to contain the OS and software, a swap partition, a config partition, and a data partition. Only give the user access to the data partition. Store application configuration information on the config partition. If the OS dies for any reason, boot to the special CD that ships with the PC, and the "system" partition will be wiped and reloaded. On the software side, it would be virtually maintenance free, and user data would not be wiped out if you had to delete the system partition.
We the Sheeple...
Microsoft uses unearned revenue to smooth income. Basicly the reported revenue (sales) on Microsoft's income statement is a weighted average of the sales over the past 18 months. Each year Microsoft recognizes most of the money they get for selling office etc. but puts the rest on the balance sheet as a liability (unearned revenue). Then over the next 18 months, they take the liability off the balance sheet and recognize the revenue. The reason the number on the balance sheet is smaller now (this unearned revenue) is that Microsoft reduced the % of revenue that was postponed. I think this change is a respones to the the SEC investingating Microsoft for "cookie jar reserve accounting." At the end of the year the reserves were $6 billion and I doubt that this indicates that Microsofts sales are falling.
Like it or not, Linux (or any Unix variant) is not suitable for the consumer market. Probably never will be. Gnome/KDE are laughable attempts at an already out-dated UI. BeOS is moving towards more consumer-friendly UI's with its Media Appliance bent. These machines will ship with BeOS. BeOS is the most technically-advanced, easy-to-install, easy-to-use operating system out there. It's the fastest (for most things) operating system, boots in record time (10-15 seconds), and has the most elegant C++ API available. Sure, there are missing pieces, but the gaps keep filling in every day. BeOS is getting great games. BeOS has a great Works-like package, Gobe Productive (the 2.0 version absolutely kicks ass!). BeOS rules.
They're selling cheap machines with no OS installed?
So much for all that FUD that microsoft would fire nuclear missiles at anyone who dared not sell windows.
ROFL. I wouldn't mind. I put Linux on them and start my own Beowulf cluster. :)
My journal has hot
1) I thought OEMs typically pay a large up-front cost for unlimited license to redistribute MS's Shipping PCs that don't run Windows actually costs them because they don't save any money in and have to retool their factories.
:)
M$ used to have a "per processor" licensing arrangement where OEMs would pay per CPU that they shipped. The DOJ told them no, no, shame-on-you and so they stopped doing that. The result was that OEMs now have to pay double and sometimes even triple for each copy of Windows that they used to pay. The fee is much higher than that $100 you pay at the computer store for a retail copy. (And its negotiated per OEM so the price is different for each OEM)
2) Norton Ghost can back up an entire system installation in a hidden partition. Some OEMs use this when a user really screws up their system: run this magic utility and your system will be just like it when you bought it.
Crap like this is why I custom build all my own machines.
My journal has hot
Believe it when you take delivery of one. I wouldn't be suprised if this is nothing more than a feint to get MS to come down on their per machine license fee.
> I suppose Microsoft could, say something like "If you ship those Browser PCs without an MS OS, we will increase your MS license fees." That would be corporate suicide, given MS's current legal situation.
This is a good statement to study for those opposed to the government anti-trust action. When this case is over, people will claim that whatever remedies are enforced were not really needed because of announcements like this. Yes, Microsoft claims that the landscape of computing and licensing is changing. But a good part of that *is* that Microsoft is under scrutiny. Without the ongoing legal action you can be certain that Microsoft *would* be using threats against the hardware vendors.
Everybody seems to be all gung-ho linux. Linux is nice and all, but your average user will have problems with having to wait to push the power button. Linux is a server, and it is good at it, but some other OSs do things like this better.
why BeOS?
1. BeOS is one of those who does some things better. With it's journaled file system (read database data integrity) you can punch the power button once every 60sec for a month and not destroy your files.
2. It boots very very quickly. Having linux and BeOS on the same machine I sometimes like to boot into BeOS simply because linux is too darn slow to boot.
3. BeOS while not free is darn cheap.
4. It is fast on slow hardware because of it's OO API, and extreme multithreadedness, because of it's real-time (ok quasi-real time) layer, and because of it's highly configurable microkernal architecture.
5. It's stable (as is linux) due to pre-emptive multitasking, paged memory, yadda yadda, yadda.
6. Pretty, consistant UserInterface
Having said BeOS would be good I also admit that Linux would work too, you would just need a better file system.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
That costs money, money they want to save. Im betting they are just gona make their own little AOL-OS or something. Or maybe GW2K will port AmigaOS...hehe
I have to return some videotapes...
You mark my words, even being bought by a floppy drive maker can't stop Atari! TOS (Trameil Operating System) is back, and better than ever with a new high resolution (640x480) version of GEM!
That, and I also predict it will ship with OIDS. Who wants to play minesweeper when you could play OIDS?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
PCs without windows is good news, but I'm still waiting for a PC with no doors. When is the last time you used the door on yor PC? Pretty much never, right? I'll be glad when we get rid of this kind of bloat once and for all....
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
This may be a shot to MS, but I don't think it will be the end of them, not by a long shot.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
That would be cool, just put Linux on them and you have free low-bandwidth web servers. If I had as many of those as I have AOL disks....
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
Specifically, that DSL availability is still limited, even in "high-tech" areas of the country (USA). If you're more than around 16,000 or so wire-feet from the telco wire center, forget it. Even if you're just under that limit, it'll take a hit out of your performance. Heck, I live southeast of Seattle, and USWorst is still dragging their heels on upgrading to newer DSL equipment that can go longer wire distances. A friend of mine, in San Jose (supposedly the heart of Sillycon Valley) is in the same situation -- too far out! So, don't assume that DSL will work for everyone just because it exists. And don't even get me started on the security issues, along with God only knows how many people have blithely hitched up their home PeeCee, with sharing enabled, to an open DSL line without a clue about firewalls or routers...
At the University of Wisconsin, like many other institutions, we already pay Microsoft millions of dollars a year for a site license for Windows (and Office, and some other MS crap) So when we buy a machine with already pre-installed, we're paying for Windows twice.
Additionally, most of the larger departments already have a customized install of Windows that they use - we take them out of the box, drop in our CD, and blow away whatever crap the vendor put on the drives.
So, while this might be useful for the people who want to buy a Linux/BSD/whatever box from Dell, it's also wonderfully nice for people who do actually want a Windows box.
Remember that thing where pc makers have to pay microsoft for every computer, windows or not... even if you told them no OS at all... is this still how it works?
From the 1994 Consent Decree between Microsoft and the DOJ.
C. Microsoft shall not enter into any Per Processor License.
D. Except to the extent permitted by Section IV (G) below, Microsoft shall not enter into any License Agreement other than a Per
Copy License.
So in answer to your question, no that's not still how it works.
My money is on BeOS. My reasons can be boiled
down to three:
1. BeOS is built from the ground up as a Multi-
Media OS. Its fast, its (relatively) small, and
more reliable than WinXX. Perfect for the non-
geeks who want good streaming web content, and
basic utilities (word processor, spreadsheet).
2. BeOS has a nice standard interface, which can
be slimmed down in size and functionality (if
needed).
3. BeOS has already proven it can be used and
offered at no cost to OEM's (see this link for Gasee's offer to
manufacturers).
Either way (linux, BeOS) it will be nice to see
another alternative to MS.
Hey you guys-
OK, let's think about Gateway, or Packard Bell. I work for an ISP, they all ship out with Lucent or rockwell Piece-of-junk WinModems, onboard SiS chipsets and the like... and other things that have yet to be supported by Linux... how are they going to do this? Are they going to get some better hardware, or write drivers themselves? Just a thought,
--phil
Linux doesn't even show up on the radar on these.
--
UK: Evesham Zytec (I think) range ship with neither OS nor monitor! Intended for second time buyers but do ship with respectable specs and no OS.
I don't suffer from insanity- I enjoy it immensly!
It would be pretty cool if they shipped these things with a DSL modem, and a floppy that boots up configures the NIC, launches a little menu that lets you select a Linux distro and packages and then ftp's the whole thing to you in a couple of hours and configures it for you. Then you would not have to waste your money on an os, and have a completely customized pc in three hours. Apps and everything. I'm pretty sure Joe Snuffy would think thats cool. Make the menus pretty and they will come.
(B) + (D) + (B) + (D) = (K) + (&)
A while back there was an article that talked about how something jsut like this could really screw MS over. It was detailing exactly how linux could ake over the super low pc market and rock the industry! Who knows the URL?
The vendors listed in the articles are supporters of Linux, so its possible thats what will be installed.
The machines descriptions sound like PC versions of the iMac, so they'll probably be very stripped down PC's, hence the low cost (and Linux for zero)
So, I read the CNNfn version. I wanted to see what a more traditional Microsoft bed-buddy had to say on the subject and went to ZDNet.
3 83313,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01
Hmmm... compare the two. One is attributed to Reuters, the other is attributed to WSJ Interactive and John R. Wilke, Gary McWilliams and David Bank...
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2
Are those similarities legitimate or has someone been naughty?
Screw that! BeOS Minesweeper.
I guess a lot of people here are thinking about Unix-like free OSes, like Linux. *BSD, etc. But didn't Gassée also offer to license BeOS for free to manufacturers who would pre-install it? Hmmm... Any others?
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
... there was a major computer manufacturer. The manufacturer had historically produced high-powered machinery with full-blown operating systems, but in recent years had seen some erosion of its sales at the low end from less-capable but much less expensive brands. The Big Company decided to get in on the new trend and introduced its own line of low-end computers.
Since its customers needed more than hardware, the Big Company offered their machines with a choice of operating software: users could have the industry standard or a new product made specifically for the new machines. The standard software naturally commanded a premium price: $40 extra.
Now according to your theory, users would have overwhelmingly preferred the standard, premium operating software over the freebie included with the machine. That's not what happened, though. Anyone recognize the story?
Hint: Monterey, California
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Very interesting. I had no idea. But it made me look and notice another interesting thing about Microsoft earnings: they've had positive earnings surprises for (at least) five consecutive quarters. One way to achieve this would be to forever be finding yet another way to generate more cash flow. Another way would be to play with your unearned revenue numbers.
I'd be stunned if Microsoft's sales were falling, but I'd be less surprised if their sales (and earnings) growth began to slow down after the next big product cycle. And that's pretty critical when your stock is:
I mean, shoot, if Microsoft ever began trading at even a merely absurd P/E, then that could whack the stock price in half.
Babar
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
Yes, the problem for BeOS is the web-browser.
I dont think that Mozilla will be ready soon enough, and NetPositive 3 is still too buggy..
If they choose BeOS then Opera might be a choice. But there since AOL is involved there is also another possibility, Netscape.
Currently there is no BeOS version of Netscape as we all know, but since AOL has pumped in eight-hundred million bucks in gateway and owns Netscape, a port could be made real quick if needed. Netscape source is probably already quite portable because it has quite a few target platforms, so adding BeOS could be done quite quick if there is economical interest.
And Be has been talked a lot about internet appliances lately, and they probably know more about whats happening, so it might be a possibility after all.
Everyone seemsto think that they will have problems with home-users who don't want to install their own OS's. Probably very true. But I doubt that is the audience they are targeting. Large companies (as in, large enough to have an IT department) prefer to keep all their machines running the same versions of OS and software. The 3-4 versions of Windows 95, plus a few of Windows 98, not to mention the gaggle of different MS Office versions over the last few years can wreak havoc on support costs and effort. I see a "blank" computer with single-vendor hardware warranties as having great appeal to these places. They can get a shipment, install their currently-in-use versions of OS and apps, and release them to the end-user. Suddenly the tech people only have to know the bugs, quirks, and patches for this one set of versions. When Upgrade time comes, you can simply take a list of every computer and visit them, and when you are done, you know that everyone is running the same thing. With site licenses for the software, companies can save big $$$ and hassle (which also translates to $$$).
And if a few Linux or *BSD boxes result to run the firewall/web server/email/what-have-you, all the better.
I don't know if you are missing something but you might be confused. You can argue that the people buying the machines need software you CAN'T argue they need Microsoft software. The other thing is low cost machines have gotten so cheap making money means not giving Microsoft any money per machine. The other other thing is the target market is new people looking for an "internet" connection. They don't need the latest geewhiz word processor or spreadsheet or anything else in Office. Most couldn't even use all the features let alone need them. So shipping a striped down box with stripped down software would be perfectly okay for them. You don't buy a tractor trailer instead of a car. Same thing here. The right tool for the right people.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I guess I'd rather not see the death of Winmodems. What I'd like to see is a central framework for all software-driven modems under multiple OSes.
I know the problems with winmodems, and I know that it is pointless to say that "things should be this way." However, IBM was, last I heard, working on getting the i1400 series to run Linux OOB, and that they were therefore working on a Linux driver to run the modem - maybe they'll call it a Linmodem, then, but I doubt it. Clearly this move by these companies shows that there is a need for hw companies to provide interoperability to continue to compete in the market.
Sure, hardware-only modems have real advantages, but increasingly both laptops and desktops are shipping with Winmodems. I'm something of a laptop evangelist, and I'd like to see Linux take a bigger chunk of that market.
Perhaps, if IBM does get a softmodem working under Linux, that will start a ball rolling, as has happened with other things, and we can tick off another of the ever-shortening list of "Linux/*BSD can't do that."
-Josk
I think there's one main reason most of the hardware distributors insist on installing an operating system on every box that goes out their doors:
They want to be able to assure customers that their system is fully functional.
That would be much more difficult to accomplish without installing an OS onto the hard disk. You could probably put together a linux-compatabilty-floppy that would run through some diagnostics and let you know if it will run on that hardware...
-jason
OK, let me give my personal thoughts of what "computers without Windows" could mean. First of all, what available operating systems are there to include on an x86 computer?
;-)
We have Windows, BeOS, Linux, and seveal BSDs as well as several large commercial UNIX systems, maybe Solaris 7? Forget OS/2, it's more dead than BeOS!
But what would companies like Gateway and Compaq provide end-users with that would make connecting to the internet about as long as it takes to eat one doughnut (why, haven't you seen Gateway's hilarious commercial?)? Well, we could speculate that BeOS would be great for this, however, it lacks support for a lot of cool stuff, and it has no serious Office applications, etc. Even its internet applications are weak (no good ICQ, AIM, or even Web Browser, etc).
Next we take a look at the obvious UNIX systems that they could include. Linux is probably at the top of this list! And what Linux systems would they think of? Red Hat, as a first. Then maybe SuSE, TurboLinux, and obviously, the yet-to-be-released Corel Linux. Corel Linux seems like the first choice they would go with. Of course, we can't forget Caldera's flagship OpenLinux OS, which isn't so bad off either.
As far as including a BSD, I don't see that being very likely. Don't ask why, but BSD is probably one of the farthest OSes from "Desktopability" out there. Take a look at NetBSD and OpenBSD. And don't even mention FreeBSD, because its supports like, what, three popular hardware components (this being monitors, keyboards, and maybe mice, but defenitely SB16)?
Solaris 7 is quite a possible choice for this task, too. For home and personal use it doesn't cost a huge buck and I am sure companies like Compaq and Gateway can make great deals with Sun to chop off a huge amount of the price. And Solaris does have nice support for stuff, so it could indeed be a nice choice.
If all else fails, they can install QNX on these wonder internet machines!!!
yeah
The thing isn't the cost of Windows it's that its the same cost for every machine you sell. If you sell alot of machines [all these companies do] then it's cheaper to develop the OS in house and spread the cost over those machines then to pay Microsoft for each and every machine you sell. It's one thing if you are selling $2k machines but that isn't the home user market anymore. The real fun will start when they start selling similar machines for office use.
Uhh, I must be confused. This wouldn't be good enough to moderate *up*, but it sure as heck isn't flamebait.
Two thoughts:
- ----------
1) I thought OEMs typically pay a large up-front cost for unlimited license to redistribute MS's software. Shipping PCs that don't run Windows actually costs them because they don't save any money in licensing, and have to retool their factories.
2) Norton Ghost can back up an entire system installation in a hidden partition. Some OEMs use this feature when a user really screws up their system: run this magic utility and your system will be just like it was when you bought it.
--------------------------------------------
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words
If Dell decides to ship some of these machines with Windows, and some without, the ones using Linux/BSD/BeOS or whatever they use will undoubtably be cheaper. If I were a clue-free end user, that would imply to me that they were inferior OS's, since the hardware was identical.
Have no fear - in the end Adam Smith and the law of supply and demand will always win. IOW, cheaper==++sales. If the the "more expensive is better" crowd needs to be taken care of, offer an option that includes a full boxed set of your favorite Linux distribution - that should get the price up high enough, as well as provide plenty of late-night reading material. (Or early morning "thinking material", depends on your personal preference:)
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Opera is nice, but there's a price tag attached to that.
Netpositive... no java... That's okay 80, maybe even 90% of the time... but, when you really need that vm working, what are you gonna do?
One nice thing the ArsTechnica article points out is that the lynx support is excellent for BeOS :)
last week i was pricing laptops. So i went to Dell's website and priced an Inspiron. During the configuration, i was presented with this:
Operating System:
Windows 95
Windows 98 SE
No Operating System
but the thing is, you do not get a subtract on cost if you do not choose Win9x. so it seems that you are paying for it regardless if you choose to receive it.
In a separate article, the newspaper said a move toward Web-based computing, together with expectations for a negative ruling in the federal antitrust case against Microsoft and a close reading of its revenue numbers, are leading some money-managers to cut back their holdings in the software giant
:)
This close reading of its revenue numbers refers to Microsoft's future unearned revenue, which consists of revenues set aside from the sales of W'98, WNT and Office to pay for future improvements. Essentially, it reflects previous sales that have not been recorded in the income statement. Microsoft pioneered this practice for software companies starting with W'95... it is more common in other areas (magazines for instance).
The concern is that this quarter marks the first ever drop in this slightly arcane (and not too accurate) indicator.
I would not be too optimistic that this company is in any sort of trouble. When you are sitting on $20 billion in cash, and absolutely no debt... you tend to have some staying power
for most people.
And if that shell is a decent browser, that takes them right past "oh, God - what the hell is this?"
They never see anything but a boot-squence and the browser. No OS at all, as far as the user is concerned.
Now, Linux could do that very handily. Some guy at Dell sets up a Linux box just so, with exactly this harware, one user account, disables security so that account opens on boot, makes the browser the default shell, cuts a CD of all the config files, and that's it.
Down sides:
1) The big one - at the moment, there is no browser. Netscape will not do. It crashes too much. On a real setup, you just delete the lock file and fire Netscrape back up. I have a batch file to do that in four keystrokes and an annoyingly long wait. But when the browser is the shell, that looks like a sort of warm reboot to the naive user. Quite uncool. You need a rock-solid browser.
2) The licensing. This box doesn't provide real easy access to the source code. But maybe throwing in a CD that the user will probably never see is good enough, as long as there is also a CD with the standard config on it to recover from what the occasional curious user does to the system.
Sanity For Today
Farley Flavors (of Fabulous Fast Food fame)
We apologize for the inconvenience.
I'm extremely heartened to hear this. Not only does this represent a major crack in Microsoft's foundation, but it presents a major opportunity for Linux to step in - "Hey guys, we have a free OS here that's more stable than Windows."
On the other hand though, I think this story oversimplifies the issue quite a bit. Microsoft is notorious for offering hefty discounts on Windows software to companies who agree to only distribute that OS - no OS/2, etc. I still haven't really figured out how Dell managed to circumvent that one by offering Redhat pre-installed. I could be wrong, but AFAIK such incentives still exist. In that case, the article doesn't really broach the topic of how the big companies will distribute some other OS (in GW2K's case, some incantation of AOL most likely) without incurring a price penalty from MS, which will most certainly be passed on to the consumer. Do I have it all wrong here? It seems like more companies are offering alternative OSs, but I know for a fact that Microsoft has incentivized it quite well for them to refrain. What's the story, folks?
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Most average people aren't really going to be interested in installing a different OS. In fact, most people fear installing an OS period, even Windows. They want it already there, already set up so they can start frantically double-clicking all the icons.
/. early in the summer describes a plot by AOL-Sun-Netscape to render Windows obsolete. There is also talk of "AOL Everywhere", as if the AOL interface (God forbid) would become the operating system. Ellison and McNeely's vision of ditching all your locally installed software for web apps is likely what they are talking about.- ----------------
Alternatively, though, perhaps an OS in the traditional way we think of an OS is not what they're looking at. The article describes a PC that would mainly just be able to surf the web. The article mentions the fact that AOL invested $800M in Gateway, but does not mention the Netscape-AOL-Sun deal. Likewise, an article on
-----------------------------------------
No word yet on what they'll ship with, but who knows?
You know what? It doesn't matter. I'll finally be able to buy a PC online without Windows.
This matters most for people who:
- Run a non-Microsoft operating system
- Already *OWN* a copy of windows from a PC they are replacing.
cheers,
BeOS will ship R5 early next year, with major improvment, 3D drivers, etc, maybe translated version in french or german or whatever. PS "Major PC Makers to Ship PCs Sans Windows" i didn't know anglophones use "sans" for "without", french rules :)
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http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
Its the beggining of the end. :-) When you have someone such as cnn reporting people are starting to hold back on windows it can ONLY mean one thing. The beggining of Open Computin. :-) I dont like web apps and will always hack software. (sorry sun) Anyhows. Yes!
Not only will the Windows-less computers be cheaper, but they will crash much less!
Maybe a PC manufacturer will build a custom web browser in order to use the BeOS?
If they are really looking to cut the cost of the machine, linux is probably the way to go...
Bizarre that it wound up anonymous, but I suppose that's life.
D
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I could make a killer Beowulf Cluster.
Sorry, I just had to sneak that in. :)
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
What, with the possibility of Gateway somehow ending up with Amiga's patents, why couldn't we see AmigaOS?
-Denor
They've pretty much cut everything else to the bone. What's left? Windows. The $'s are driving this. Something's gotta give. I hope M$ doesn't come out with Windows Lite or some other abortion.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
1) I thought OEMs typically pay a large up-front cost for unlimited license to redistribute MS's software.
This was outlawed by the consent decree that MS signed in 1994 (or thereabouts). The "large up-front fee" was dependent on the number of machines shipped, with the result that you describe.
Shipping PCs that don't run Windows actually costs them because they don't save any money in licensing, and have to retool their factories.
Exactly. There was a disincentive for PC OEMs to ship other OSs. The US courts felt that MS was illegally taking advantage of its market share. PC OEMs now pay license fees based on the total number of boxes shipped within each of the OEM's product lines, rather than the overall total number of boxes shipped by the OEM. When a product line is first created, a lot of decisions are made regarding the hardware and software involved in that product line. Apparently it has now become profitable to consider NOT using Windows. The consent decree seems to have worked.
2) Norton Ghost can back up an entire system installation in a hidden partition. Some OEMs use this feature when a user really screws up their system: run this magic utility and your system will be just like it was when you bought it.
True. But it doesn't restore your system to the state it was in before the crash - all the customizations and tweaks and extra software you installed is GONE. OEMs would also have to pay a license fee to Norton to use the Ghost software.
My thought was to simply use some sort of auto-install software on a bootable CD that would reload the system partition. You limit the configuration changes the user can make to those that can be stored in the config partition. You don't let the user install any additional software. You sell the machine as what it is, an internet appliance, since most people don't want the infinite configurability and customization of current PCs. (Note - don't confuse "most people" with "most people who now own PCs").
How are we going to play minesweeper on the instore machines!?
I'm worried.
Note that the article states low cost, Internet machines. I'm thinking a strange AOl OS, so you have machines that are all-AOL, all the time.
Is it possible for this to happen?
Frankly, I have no idea, but Gateway will certainly include AOL. Is AOL avaliable for Linux or BE or any of the non-Windows, non-Mac OSes?
This is incredible and I wonder why I didn't see it coming sooner. It makes perfect sense for PC OEMs, in this era of shrinking profit margins, to do all they can to eliminate costs. If the consumer wants a only a simple word processor and web access with email, why do you need a huge OS? Why incur a hundred-dollar cost*? Why not use a $$$-free OS? And while you're at it, why not make it easy to restore the system to the original configuration without destroying user data?
From the article, it appears that MS is trying to develop a similar solution, but here's where the backlash kicks in. (I am so tickled I am laughing as I write this). Microsoft is known for their predatory pricing practices and their bullying behavior. If you've been burned by them before (and EVERY PC OEM has), and if you don't have to deal with them, why bother? I suppose Microsoft could, say something like "If you ship those Browser PCs without an MS OS, we will increase your MS license fees." That would be corporate suicide, given MS's current legal situation.
I have no idea how this will be implemented, but here's how I would do it. Create a "system" partition to contain the OS and software, a swap partition, a config partition, and a data partition. Only give the user access to the data partition. Store application configuration information on the config partition. If the OS dies for any reason, boot to the special CD that ships with the PC, and the "system" partition will be wiped and reloaded. On the software side, it would be virtually maintenance free, and user data would not be wiped out if you had to delete the system partition.
*Those familiar with MS licensing practices surely realize that PC OEMs are not charged the retail price of ~$100 for each copy of Windows they load. However, when considering the cost of Windows, you'd be a moron to leave support costs out of the equation.
I have no problem with buying a preconfigured system from Dell. I usually appreciate the fact that they've worked out some of the odder hardware incompatibilities.
But I'd REALLY like to see the companies that sell bottom of the line machines provide the option of buying without an OS installed... My company buys these machines, and when we get a new one the process is:
1) Reinstall bits of the hardware (e.g. CPU) CORRECTLY.
2) Repartition the hard disk in a rational manner.
3) Install your OS of choice and take the time to make sure it ACTUALLY WORKS.
Even if you want to run Windoze, you're usually better off doing it yourself than trusting some of these losers.
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves. */
Unfortunately I think that most people will buy computers without windows so that they can simply install another copy that they have, or one copied or borrowed from a friend. Luckily with Linux we dont have this problem.
I think it would ship with a very small embedded-like OS, given its goal. Something like Linux is overkill for simple web surfing.
I wouldn't be surprised if it came with a customized version of QNX or something.
This looks like more of a boon to the entire PC maker/reseller industry itself, not the average user. If the Big Three can afford to (quietly) thumb their collective noses at the once mighty M$ pre-installed OS monopoly before any kind of actual ruling comes out, then the smaller PC makers will have very little to fear from M$ in terms of retribution via pricing, and thus will have more options in what OS to ship with their hardware. Winners: users, PC manufacturers, and all alternative OSes. Losers: M$ -- they won't be able to dictate what the average user sees upon booting.
Marco...that was Portugese.