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China Enters Space
Almost everybody sent it: "China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..." BBC story - SpaceViews story - official press release from China Daily.
With respect, always pay attention to someone who is *already* pointing a gun at you. "[N]o one oughta be willing to damage human life to get what he wants." Yeah, but "oughta be" doesn't equate to "is", dammit. A rock isn't a cruise missle, but it can still kill you. Ask a Tibetan what her experience has been with the post 1949 Chinese version of world peace. And as Neville Chamberlain learned in 1939, overdoses of unfounded optimism can be as fatal as any other drug. And Canada has an eternal flame in Ottawa for peace. After burning the predecessor building to the White House in 1812, fighting two World Wars from the start and helping out with the Korean War and countless peacekeeping missions and war crime investigations, then killing an investigation of our own role in the torture and death of a local teenaged thief in Canadian custody in Somalia, Canada's motto should be: "World Peace: we've killed to get it." Don't be taken in by propaganda: regardless of what's in Tien An Mun Square today, the Chinese student's Statue of Liberty was demolished by the same People's Liberation Army that killed everyone who didn't flee the square. Why are no wreaths allowed in the Square today? Because the same crew of murderous liars is still in charge.
Way to go China!
The people around here that diss China are only being told what to think by the American media (aka propaganda machine).
They're just softening people up for a war with China... and most Americans will support their government when it happens.
I know the origin of pokemons. My point stands.
/. makes enough money to boycott Chinese produce, MANY PEOPLE CAN'T. So, taking every thing in to consideration, there isn't much that can be done.
Exactly my point. Don't complaint about lack of human rights and labor laws, if you can't live without it. I'm sure alot of ppl on
>if anyone knows their history
>you should realize that war and the chinese go
>together like yin and yang
Are you daft? How fucking stupid are you? China has been *repeatedly* and *successfully* invaded since Genghis Khan. The Mongols (not one, not two, but *three* generations of the Khan family), the British (Hong Kong and the Opium Wars), and the Japanese (pre-WWII) have all successfully occupied Chinese soil. What, you think that "Wall of China" thingy is a "militarily offsensive" structure? Feel free to pull your head out of your asshole any time now.
The only reason China is still a country today is that its greatest strength is converting the invading force to their culture. Marco Polo said of Kubali Khan is was impossible to believe he was Mongol. How many British customs have been created or reinforced by occupying China (tea?)? How many Japanese customs?
China has only recently become externally aggressive (Korea, Taiwan), and compared to how China itself was treated and subjegated (sp?), very kind to external countries. Before Communism, China's foreign policy was "You leave us alone, and we with leave you alone". More or less, this still holds true today.
To all those "China stealing rocket technology from us" whiners, China *invented* the field of rocketry, and Europeans *stole* that idea from the Chinese. I guess that the Chinese have just been paid back for that. As well, if open source standards and free information (you know, those ideals that you so mindlessly and hypocritically agree with, defend, and quote as gospel) would have been universally applied, they could have just have downloaded the plans from the web.
Of course, the human rights issues internally are pretty ugly, but hey, in America, you do or have done similar (but not on the same scale) things (McCarthyism, Salem witch hunts, fag-bashing, slavery, race riots, geek oppression, Japanese concentration camps in WWII), so climb off those high horses. As well, USA has historically been VERY aggressive (including invading MY home country, Canada. Does the term "manifest destiny" mean anything to you?).
Just some flame bait to piss off those knee jerkers who can't think before they post.
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
yeah blame everything on communist
If 125 top level scientist can't help US then what a couple of spies can do for Chinese rocket program!
I have no doubt that the Chinese space program is being fueled by Russian technology to a far greater extent than US technology and I never said otherwise. Pictures of the capsule resemble Soyuz, the bundled configuration of boosters is a classical Russian design (and may be why they never went to the moon), and the landing site are all characteristics of Russian technology.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes them to overcome the booster problem for their moon shot.
you dont know what you are talking about
allende was overthrown thanx to cia supporting fascist movement of general pinochet.....
The People's Republic of China has enough nuclear weapons, regardless of their accuracy (but improving all the time thanks to your tax dollars at work) to kill off human civilization. They have a permanent seat on the UN Security Counsel as a direct result. Military preparedness has to do with their current capability, not their current posture, so excuse me if I'm willing to take the PRC's occupation of the Spratley Islands and missle testing a little more seriously than a Quake player. Don't underestimate the PRC - Tibet, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam have to varying degrees of regret. Those aren't chopsticks that they're pointing. Most of the AK-47 Kalashnikovs manufactured during the Cold War were a Chinese copy of the original Soviet design. Space based weapons, Star Wars or not, are not an idle threat. But having the Chinese in space will end our complacency without, I hope, ending anything else.
We all know China's previous record.
*Ahem*.. Excuse me, but which country has actually droopped nukes on people? Which country is constantly bombing other sovereign nations with neither declaring war nor consulting the U.N.? China threatens Taiwan with weapons, but has it actually attacked them?
Before you get scared that China is going to attack other countries, look at the countries that are ALREADY attacking other countries!
Heellooooo. Anyone home in that noggin' of yours? The United States built the Soviet's industrial infrastructure in the 30s because of the promise of a huge emerging market to sell goods. China has duped the U.S. again with the very same promise. It's laughable that you attribute the rise of superpowers to communism itself, whether historical or ideological.
Wokanauts
Not true. US immigration policies haven't stopped admitting poor people, in fact, compared to most other developed nations we're one of the worse (or best, depending on your perspective) in that regard. If anything, the US needs to tighten them up more. Other countries such as Canada atleast have a system in place where immigrants tend to be educated and mobile (or atleast have a good track record of success). Furthermore, when it comes to engineers and what not, we restrict them in the name of protectionism--very stupid. Damn few of our immigrants have much in the way of skills, it's a shame.
I don't think the fact that they have little experience will have much effect. If they can launch succesfully, then they can start doing just about anything. If they could get the funds together, then China would be even more inclined to start colonies on, say, the moon, what with their overpopulation. Plus, if they get more friendly with Russia, mabey russia will put some launch stations in China, and do a joint project, making Rusia's easier and cheaper, due to the launch lattitude.
It's this kind of knee jerk reaction that sickens me. . . .
Put that in your depreciating and soon to be worthless Euro and smoke it!!!
Ah, yes, gotta love those knee-jerk reactions . . .
Nobody here claims that Americans invented paper or the printing press for chrissake!
We did invent the stinking hot metal linotype machine though - which is what really made books available to the common man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . You're not claiming that the US invented everything, you're just claiming that anything that wasn't invented in the US is irrelevant and/or trivial.
As it happens, the Enlightenment in Europe predated the existence of the USA (not to put to fine a point on it, but it also provided the philosophical foundations for our Constitution), and it was largely fueled by old-fashioned movable type.
Furthermore, the "common man" doesn't read too damn many books. Newspapers and pamphlets have had at least equal impact (read up on the American Revolution; try Thomas Paine for starters), and their invention (due to movable type) was a more important innovation than their subsequent inflation into monsters like the Sunday Times. Yes, more pages is certainly better, but the change from zero to four is more significant than the change from four to two hundred. Movable type put printed matter into the hands of the common man, thereby making near-universal literacy both possible and useful; the linotype merely put more printed matter into the hands of the common man -- who could already read.
In conclusion, I'd like to point out that this entire discussion is an idiotic and pointless exercise in childish nationalism. You, for some reason (probably insecurity over your own microscopic accomplishments), feel a need to exaggerate the acheivements of your fellow Americans (who did it all with no help from you, pal). Hence your shrieks of outrage. As for me, the childish bellowings of chauvinistic nationalists just happen to annoy me. I have an old-fashioned respect for fact and logic, and sometimes I can't resist puncturing their childish illusions rather than just ignoring them as they deserve. The fact is, we're both wasting our time: You're impervious to fact, and I'm impervious cheap emotionalistic nationalism. The difference is that I know it and laugh about it, while you actually think you're proving something.
(Oh, and by the way -- being that you're a right-wing AC on Slashdot, you will inevitably respond with grandiose and wholly unsupported claims about your own academic, technical, and financial accomplishments. Well, don't bother. Nobody believes that garbage. I, for example, am the Speaker of the House of Representatives -- and a Nobel laureate in high-energy physics as well! And a concert violinist! And a multibillionare! I speak ninety-seven languages, in thirty-five of which I have published major novels! Yeah, that's the ticket! Heh.)
Great comment! Moderate this one up! Good links, BTW!
When the Americans' balls are to the war, they *always* turn to Canada for help (Avro, D-Day, and any American-sponsered United Nations motion; because, guess what, internationally, Americans are despised). However, us Canadians always get paid back in spades (can you say "Auto-Pact" and "unlimited defense treaties"? Knew you could!).
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
i've lived in eastern europe for 10 years and the truth is that 80% of ppl in eastern europe lives worse now than 10 years ago.
there are only 2-3 eastern european countries (slovenia, czech republic..) who have menaged to increase their bnp since fall of communism.
also its not truth that eastern european countries stagnated during time after ww2.
if we look at cuba you will see that communism increased life expectancy and living standard of most of the ppl there. before communism there were barely 10% of the people who could read now its 99,9%, bnp increased, everything got better.....
i am not saying that communism is ideal solution but capitalism isnt either.
I agree... China is the evil empire... they are the last major holdout of communism.. they squash even the smallest human rights movement... they censer the internet on a national scale (something the libs could only dream of here) and if anyone knows their history you should realize that war and the chinese go together like yin and yang. Just like our culture and history shapes our thinking and actions... the chineese history of war and conflict shape theirs... everything is a means to an end...
Well, my ancestors were Vikings: probably the world's worst tourists before the invention of the Bermuda shorts. They were appallingly brutal and as younger sons (who hence would not inherit the family herring business) were known over a thousand years later as murdering scumbags of the first water. Now, the Scandanavian countries have an excellent reputation as utterly boring and safe societies. They demonstrated the wisdom of showing my ancestors the door to North America late last century. Now, I'm a lawyer. You have no-one but yourselves to blame for your liberal immigration policies. I could have been stopped...
You do realize they do pose a threat to our existance right?
Good grief! Please actually go take a trip to China and look around. You'll see Coke stands next to Adidas stores (along with domestic merchandise). Talk to the people who live there. They're making a living, investing in stocks, etc. Same kinds of things that you do. Go to a restaurant, and when a beeper goes off, half the people in the area look down at their belts..
Life in China is hardly 1984-ish at all.
countries that are bent with killing the 'evil capitalists'.
Capitalism is the rule in China these days. It's far more capitalist than even the US in many ways. In a typical middle-class family, everyone from grandparents to kids know more about stocks than most people in this country do. Please look up some first-hand info.
Go talk to some people who actually come from China. China does not "pose a threat to our existence". I can't believe how effective the propagandizing media has been in affecting intelligent Slashdotters.
I don't see it as being much more dangerous, and nor do I see it being the responsibility of leaders and strategists.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
Hot Russian Brides Available
I'm sure that these people can tell you stories about the effective uses of resources.
You know, there used to be a thing called the "scientific community" where people are supposed to SHARE knowledge rather than horde it. :P
This puts a chink in the armor of US space and science supremecy. (no pun intended). Science is overrated in this country. It only leads kids to disobey their parents and start believing in assanine things like the world revolving around the sun and that the universe wasn't created in 6 days. That type of teaching is going to bring God's wrath down upon us all! Git back ye to de kitchen and eat your grits.
Uh, wasn't the American rocket program pretty much completely taken from the German program, with German scientists or via espionage?
:)
No doubt Chnese rocketry was influenced by the Amricans, the Russians, the Germans, and perhaps, gasp, the Chinese, who invented rocketry centuries ago...
(Great, I'm fanning the flames... Sorry guys.)
The amount of xenophobia here amazes me. It seems that everytime we have an article on any advance in China, we have Slasdotters making chittering little noises that amount to "Oh no, are they going to kill us now?"
China has replaced the Soviet Union as the big bad wolf in American eyes, and when supposedly rational Slashdotters take part in the fear mongering, it's easy to see how movements like McCarthyism arose in America.
Hehe, whereas the democrats can stand behind their fearless leader Algore. :-) I think Mickey Mouse would get more votes than Gore and Bush COMBINED. Come on, let's start a write-in campaign! Show the politicians we're not going to sit back and have idiotic party lines drawn in our government anymore! Elect Mickey!!!!
I wonder if China started planning trips to Mars would the US's space program try to speed things up on it's own planning? Maybe end up starting another space race type thing?
Just a thought.
Eric Anderson
..or is it ?
When America and Russia were competing to get into space in the 50s and 60s it took a huge amount of resources and computers weren't around to help with the math.
I'm hardly surprised by the fact that China has put a capsule into space, after all a number of private consortiums are competing to launch private space rockets. There's no denying a lot of them are doing it for fun, but there are a few serious contenders, and a lot of them are doing the work for very little money. Most of the major problems which consumed resources have already been solved and all it takes to find a solution is a quick web browse. I'm very surpised we don't have at least 15 nations with manned space capability by now.
Anyway, if anyone knows any different, please reply.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
As opposed to all the Anti-China crap in these comments, perhaps?
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
So the question now is whether or not other countries are going to go into space now, or if they will sit and watch China... and will countries such as the US to put more weight into the space program. Personally I think unless China does something that no one has done before, there won't be a great reaction from the other countries in terms of actually launching more things into space than is already planned, since we are long past unmanned flights.
You've certainly got a point there.
look it up!
Kinda makes me think of Arthur C. Clarke's "2010" novel..
I wonder when the space race to reach Europa will begin?
...consult the UN? After all they are *the* most recalcitrant in paying their fees. In fact Congress refuses to let America pay, somehow thinking the UN owes *it* a debt of gratitude.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
And dont forget gunpowder, guess what the Chinese used it for? Firecrackers. The europeans came up with the idea of using it to fire a projectile.
Actually, you're quite wrong. The chinese invented rocketry for the purpose of sieging castles. They were firing explosive rockets over city walls long before Europeans even had cannons.
And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press.
Actually, iirc, movable type printing was invented long before Gutenberg in the East as well. It's just that with Gutenberg, it really took off.
But you're right (sort of) when you allude to the fact that the Chinese's biggest fault was in being too self-congratulatory and unaccepting of outsiders because they were "just barbarians". The ancient Greeks had a similar attitude and they likewise fell.
But you know what? After all the crap China went through from European abuse in the 19th and early 20th Century, it learned its lesson. China now is more eager to assimilate other cultures than almost any other place.
And you know who's becoming really arrogant and unaccepting of others (always thinking they're the best)? The US.
If history taught us anything, that's going to be a problem for the US...
... of course, but frankly, I'm pleased that there is at least *one* challenger to US hegemony on the planet.
One amusing fact is that there is a myth of communist ineffectiveness (I refer to communism as a historical fact, not as an ideal model). In the two nominally communist superpowers, we have countries which went from being relatively backwards little stumble-bums of history, to world-class superpowers, in the space of a few decades. The Soviet Union managed to develop a space program only a decade after having been completely mauled by the second world war, in addition to improving the standard of living of its populace to a very high extent (vis a vis the pre-communist standard of living.)
A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition. I attribute China's autocratic nature more to China's historical political culture than to communism per se.
Perhaps the eurosocialist model is just that fusion of socialism and democracy.
O.k., I agree that the Chinese have been quite hostile of late, but I say we be optomistic. Just because a country has a communist government does not automatically mean they should be america's arch rival. Simply because we have different beliefs in reference to politics doesn't mean that they are not human and therefore similar goals as the rest of us in the free world. Provided their recent actions are genuinely in the name of exploration and the furthering of the human race and not with the intent of taking over the world I say more power to them. The only way we as a people will every truly become the explorers of the universe and galaxy that we someday hope to be ("go where no man has gone before") is if we all band together as the human race and put our resources, knowledge, and know how together and find solutions together. While competing has helped us to reach goals in the past I, for one, believe that the ultimate goal of space exploration will never truly be realized until we all put our petty differences asside and work for a common, human, good. Look what open source has done for the world of software... it has created a true revolution. Until our governments can mature a little and have a simmilar stance of technology w/ regards to advancing the human race and obtaining its goals we will all continue spinning our own wheels blaming and accusing each other while obtaining relatively small victories in the grand scheme of things.
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
Without any glorious pictures to the contrary, I imagine something went wrong.
Not to diminish what they've done, but the Party statements quoted in the BBC article are just hilarious: this was done using technology developed by Chinese scientists? Well, maybe. But I'm guessing some of that "development" occurred in the U.S., by U.S. scientists, was purloined, and sent back, either as the result of espionage, or as the result of (IMHO) illegal deals struck with U.S. aerospace companies while Big Brother Bill looked the other way (he was busy preventing any crypto exports).
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
The story is that China is the third country with the capacity to launch humans, not the third country to have humans in space. Otherwise, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam would be considered space-going nations rather than hitchhikers like Canada, the EC, etc.
Disclaimer: I apologize beforehand for the cynicism you are about to read. My opinions are based on and exceeded solely by my ignorance of the situation.
Okay, maybe it's just me, but how is it news if it's decades behind? I don't see it.
the spacecraft appeared to resemble the Apollo series of capsules launched by NASA in the US in the late 1960s.
Gee, wonder why. Can anyone say, "technology exchange"? I mean really, doesn't it seem just a tad fishy to anyone other than myself that 10 years after we send up Apollo, after having advanced beyond that, that the Chinese re-invent the damn thing just after our texchange?
How is this news?
*sarcasm on*
In recent news today, the Chinese have a new TV show, called Sassame Street, featuring characters "slightly resembling" those of our own Sesame Street. The Chinese on the other hand dispute those claims, stating that "Bag Bird + Cookie Demon" were "designed and manufactured by Chinese scientists".
*end sarcasm*
*end comment*
They can also make pretty good donuts!
*lt;/JOKE>
As far as I know China was not party to the US and russian treaty against putting weapons in space. As such it is very possible that we might see nuclear weapons or something in space b/c of this.
This may lead us to another cold war type of scenario. Far from being bad (as long as we don't nuke each other) the pressure to develop to innovate and even to explore space will be great thus blasting the world out of its sort of consumer compacancy (i.e. does going to space/basic research mean more money/bigger TV for me. No? then don't fund it).
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
The only launch facility Australia's ever had (as opposed to several that have been proposed) is Woomera. Two satellites were successfully launched there (Australia's own WRESAT1 and Britain's Prospero, the latter still in orbit) but it's problem was that it was too far from the equator for commercial launches. Polar orbit, no problem (hence more recent interest from people wanting to put up LEO "clouds").
AFAIK there's only been the one Australian-born Astronaut, and he had become a US citizen anyway.
The main Australian contribution to the space program is in tracking via the Tidbinbilla Deep Space Network site near Canberra. And I believe Neil Armstrong's first words as he descended from the LEM were relayed to the world via nearby Honeysuckle Creek (alas, now allowed to go to rack and ruin).
Interesting parody. *wink*
This old joke:
At the height of Chinese-Taiwan tension in 60's, local militia men in the province of Fujian, directly at the shore of Taiwan strait, invent a way to detect Taiwanese infiltrators. The militia would go to a local bus station, got the passengers lined up, and order everyone do "Radio Aerobic Workout", a exercise routine every school childern in Comm. China knows. The one can't follow the music to do the routine were rounded up and send to interrogations.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
China is in UN security Council not for the nuclear weapon, it's because it inherited the seat occupied by Republic of China (official name for the goverment in Taiwan).
ROC was one of the five Allied countries of WWII. (US, Brits, France, Russia, China). After ROC lost china over communists in 1949, they still hold on their UN seat until 70's, when they were forced to resign (saving the face of being vetoed out). Of course US was on the side of Taiwan.
And China doesn't have enough Nuke to kill off the man kind. I think Ukrine has more Nuke than China has. (pure speculation)
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
Not sure that whether it'll be moderated as off-topic since the discussion seems to be more concerned about China-bashing and China-bashing-bashing...
:).
The translation "God ship" - more appropriately should be as "gods' ship" - misses a subtlty of the name. "Shenzhou" has the same pronounciation as "gods' land", which in Chinese traditionally refer to the land of China. A pretty smart name from Jiang Zemin - the General secretory of CCP (read China
P.S. "gods" probably should be small capital because it's not the God as in christian religion.
There *is* no Canadian human launch capability, nor is there likely to be in the near future. If you ride Greyhound, you'll leave the driving to them - but you don't get to decide to change destinations unilaterally in midjourney. For better or worse, regardless of our contributions, that makes us passengers at the pleasure of the owners - in other words, hitchhikers. If you don't think so, then please point me to the Canadian human launch capability if it's not the US, Russia or (coming soon to an orbit near you) the PRC. I may play the harmonica and help pay for gas, but unless I own the car I'm there by leave of others. I'm Canadian and I've spoken with two of our astronauts. It's better to hitchhike than to stay home. Deal with it.
While a lot of you (we?) techies might think it's an interestinig development, has lots of promise for global development of space technology, new competition, yada yada... don't you think there are better things for a government of 1.2 billion people, many starving and living in poverty, to spend on than A MERE SPACE PROGRAM? Does China still limit the number of children a family is allowed to have?
For God's sake, misplaced priorities are SERIOUSLY hurting a LOT of people. A little humanitarian intervention would be nice to see, regardless of all the politics. (This being said from Canada, where I know you can criticize, but partly we're on the right track).
Fuck it
Thank you for your insightful post. Just a reminder that in 1812 you didn't take Yorktown (now Toronto) while we were the only successful invaders of Washington - something that not even the Confederate States of America (or at least the Army of Northern Virginia under the command of General Robert E. Lee) accomplished. You've got more arable land, more easily retreived resources and shorter winters. Congratulations. You've also got a society the envy of the rest of the world, in much of which your post would be under government supervision. But despite the many advantages of the US, the one quality I prefer and live in Canada to enjoy is simple civility and tolerance. If you're in the neighbourhood, you're welcome to drop by. You may even see why many American tourists wear a Canadian flag on their person while travelling overseas. You may even recall the 1980 "Canadian caper" when six American diplomats were smuggled out of Iran as Canadians using authorized Canadian passports issued under the personal direction of our then Prime Minister Joe Clark. It's a good idea to keep on good terms with your friends: you never know when you may need help.
I'm a Contonese. I want to hear somebody explainto me exactly what the big deal of reusing the organs of executed criminal. Now I'm not talking about 1)organ of other prisoner 2) seller for money 3) selling to foreign country etc.
Nor do I spend anytime reading the detail of their/our actual actions. I just want to know the moral justification behide it.
CY
I'm afraid you're quite mistaken about Chinese replacing French as the second most spoken language in Canada. Funny, I've heard this rumour a few times now and yet it's not even close to reflecting reality. Check out this link from the last census: CDN CENSUS DATA
You'll see that French-speakers still make up just shy of 25% of the population. Chinese-speakers are about 2.5%, a tenth of the number of French-speakers.
The big news is the incredible growth in that percentage amount. Twenty years ago the Chinese percentage was 0.4%. That's an incredible growth rate. Chinese is the first language to knock the big two "allophone" languages down a notch. Chinese has supplanted Italian and German in Canada, but by no means French.
p.s. I thought the rest of your post was pretty cool
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Now there's a kid who's learned his lessons, uh, well...
Just wondering... would it be easier to destroy a sattelite from ground or space?
If it is easier from space... that has some interesting implications for the military establishment...
Amazing.
Take a piece of what should be good news (a new partner in space exploration), throw a flag in the mix, and watch the little shaved apes go at each other like it's 1 000 000 BC. Supposedly intelligent, enlightened people become patriotic berserkers when several nations whose governments told the populace to hate the other enter the arena.
On the one hand, the gerontocracy in control of China has a pathetic human rights record. On the other hand, it's not like the populace has much choice for the time being. Witness Tiananmen Square - nice attempt fellas, too bad the army had the guns.
I think we should welcome a new nation to the ultimate frontier. Make a few magnanimous gestures, speak a few kind words, they may even have something to contribute to the "international" space station.
Old fears die hard, eh? Mao is dead, and the times are a-changin'. Slowly, but a-changin'.
And as this entire thread has shown, attitudes change even slower.
Or maybe I'm just naive, and put too much faith in this species to get past itself.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Oh, I agree that there are always ways to improve the educational system in every country. The US has some real problems with schools in economically disadvantaged areas.
However I think that the educational system in the US is much better than the impression you might get by reading the newpaper.
It is true that if you examine the average score on a standardized test given in the US, and compare it to that achieved by students in, say France you get a result that is not impressive. What people DON'T see reported by the press is what the distribution of scores is, or what the reuslts of tests of things other than regurgitated facts.
In the US the distribution is broad - students who have special ability are generally given more opportunity in the US. The result is that the US test scores for the upper percentiles are in fact as good as if not better than any in the world.
Another aspect rarely reported is that tests that measure things OTHER than the retention of factual knowledge (say problem solving ability or creative writing skills) paint a very different picture. These sorts of tests show an American education as being on average as good as if not better than any in the world.
Another factor with education in the US that is unusual compared to other nations is the number of people who go on to post secondary education. We have a very strong system of trade schools, community colleges and so on. The result is that over 50% of Americans receive some sort of post secondary degree, 80% some form of post high school education. These are by far the best numbers in the world. Because of this we don't have the same problem that the British and French do with some exam determining your ultimate role in life.
One of the mysteries that the newspapers don't answer when writing about the educational system in the US is how American workers have the highest productivity in the world if their education is so crummy.
And by the way, the stories of Einstein being a poor student are myth. He was no more a poor student than George Washington was an arborist. Einstein actually earned high marks in both primary and secondary school.
The best biography on Einstein I have seen is "Subtle is The Lord" by Abraham Pais. It's a good read, especially if you have some math and physics in your background. And it dispels some myths, too.
But because the US has the budget publicly and privately, of course many of the top-line people from elsewhere (including Canada) will move to the US to follow the opportunity.
I find it amazing that people just refuse to grant the American institutions that attract highly talented people from all over the world the credit they deserve.
The Statue of Liberty is there for a historical reason. The institutions that led to it's construction are still operating. Highly talented individuals who come to the US to pursue their work are given better opportunities than anywhere else. This includes the opportunity to win Nobel Prizes.
This is not a flaw in the US system.
I sure hope someone doesn't point to Linus and Tove and suggest they've somehow "sold out" their Finnish roots.
I hope not too. But it is no accident that Linus is living and working in the US. I recently read that he is also working on a US citizenship.
I'd say the US is a far greater threat to China than vice-versa. The US has shown no qualms whatsoever about bombing the hell out of countries at the slightest provocation, while China has never demonstrated any imperialist tendancies (too busy fighting with each other I guess).
I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.
Now that's a funny statement. Trying to bring in the programmer connection is kinda ridiculous, though.
How do you get those libraries? People who create them post them in public places. Now, suppose you wanted a library that wasn't publicly posted. You have to go about obtaining it in some other way, right? Warez. Stealing. Espionage.
That's the point. Re-inventing the wheel is an excessively trivial analogy for this case.
I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
China has got all kinds of reasons to spend money on space, from intelligence gathering (Eisenhower called it "No more Pearl Harbours") to resource management to weather prediction to technology exchange (you've got to get to the table to play with the big kids) to, let's not forget, simple participation in the future. Hope makes great propaganda, even for a government of lying killers. If freedom of the press belongs to one who owns one, then the frontier, with all its resources and posibilities will belong to those who can reach it, regardless of their values and views about freedom. A manned program gives you a lot more flexibility (at much higher cost) than purely unmanned satellites, but a mixed program (which is what they seem to be doing) is still cost effective for China and even a Third World consortium.
That is just so vewwy, vewwy Wong!
this fellow, despite his rhetoric, has a real point. The hot metal linotype is in fact one of the most important inventions of the industrial revolution. It is in order of social impact at least as great as Gutenberg's press.
"At least as great", perhaps. I still hold that from zero to one is a bigger jump than 1 to 100, but you could argue that the principle doesn't inevitably work out on a one-to-one basis in history. I can't prove my assertion by producing an alternate history any more than you or he can. IMHO second-guessing history is a little bit silly. It was goofy of me to indulge in it in the first place.
In any case (I've been thinking about this all day since my initial post that you responded to), the important advantage of the linotype and other industrial printing advances was (were?) economies of scale. However, economies of scale actually cut both ways, in a sense. You have to have serious capital to benefit from them. In 1760, Ben Franklin in his little shop was the technological equal of the largest printing company on earth. Hold on a moment before you start flaming -- yes, obviously this was because printing technology was equally lousy for everybody, and it's real hard to call that a Good Thing. I'm not denying that, and I wouldn't care to turn back the clock. However, the improved technology (linotype etc.) did have the side effect of concentrating the mass distribution of information in a relatively small number of hands until something better came along. Which brings us to the end of my subject line: Mr. Malda & Co. (for example) got Slashdot going with less capital, adjusted for inflation, than Ben Franklin had. And they're reaching, potentially, as many people as CNN. Those facts are all one big fat cliche at this point in time, but I think they're worth mentioning here in the context of the fact that most of what thrills people (serious people, not suits) about the net is the fact that it has spelled the end of the information-distribution paradigm that came with the linotype -- and which, in retrospect, had serious problems with centralization and barriers to entry. Of course, the net has its own problems: Most of our glorious new cheap bandwidth is wasted on flamewars, beany baby auctions, and conspiracy theories. But hey, that's life, and most of the old centralized media bandwidth was wasted on equally mindless drivel anyway. At least now we can broadcast our own damn drivel!
As a Chinese, I always have the impression that Japan has better space technology. Guess they don't push too hard on this area.
The thing is, China *has* to have advance military technology. Japan doesn't (or can't?) have to. WWII is just 50 years away. And Chinese has used to use centary instead of decade/next presidentcy as a unit to see the future. That's one of the reason China develop advance military protecting/revence techlogoly for Japan's potential unexpected move. (mind you China's navy suck ass, it's not really threadening the southeastern asia.)
You see in Chinese thinking, they/we still can't comprehent the reason of Japan overly-ambitious invasion decades ago. That's why Chinese take extra step in protecting itself from Japan. (personally, I don't care Taiwanese' idea one way or the other, so don't bother to argue this with me.)
The space program is always byproduct of mid/long range missile research and development. It doesn't indicate that China's tech in other area are as good as this one. We still can't produce decent DVD player, car or football player. (Yeah, the real football )
we HAVE paid them a hell of lot of cash over the years.
So have the other members. The difference is that the other members are honest, and they pay their way. The US can't be bothered. In the world today, the US is like the neighbor who refuses to cut his grass, lets his dogs run loose to shit on your yard, throws loud parties all night, and keeps a rusted car and a pile of rotting organic garbage in his front yard -- and when you complain, he drunkenly bellows "I GOTTA RIGHT. I GOTTA RIGHT. YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHADDA DO". That's you, pal. Enjoy.
As an American, I *DO* think the UN owes me a debt of gratitude for my tax dollars. But regardless, I sure as hell don't owe them another dime.
You're a moron. The UN has been, as often as not, a tool of American foreign policy, and we are constantly going to them with demands. The UN has, however, in spite of our influence, been a stabilizing force in an increasingly small world increasingly full of very dangerous weapons. We benefit from this. We sell things to the people that haven't been blown up yet, we farm out our manufacturing to them (because our own working class is generally too fat and lazy to compete), and we buy raw materials from them to feed the few industries we have left.
Isolationism has been logically, politically, militarily, and economically bankrupt for about two thousand years now. Get over it, or crawl back into your cave with your flint arrowheads and leave the rest of us in peace.
see the other references to it on the net
As Free Citizens of a Free Republic, we have a God-given moral imperative to behave like a nation of mean drunks and, with the grace of God our Creator, turn the entire goddamn planet into a puddle of slag in pursuit of our moronic tribal vendettas and primitive fears.
Thank you for listening.
I can see the TV show now: "Tuuuuuuux iiiiin Spaaaaaaaaace!" (my apologies to the Muppet Show)
After reading through this seemingly endless political bickering, some of which displays a level of ignorance and utter idiocy that is truly astonishing considering the usually intelligent readership of Slashdot, I have only one thing left to say about the Chinese rocket launch.
To all those who made it happen, congratulations on a job well done.
---
Peace,
vilvoy
>same PRC that invaded Tibet, sent troops to >Korea, sent tanks against unarmed students in >Tiamimen (sp?) square and has commited just about >every human rights violation possible is still in >power. then what the hell ur Americans send troops to Korea? plus Vietnam and more ....
Is that not the responsibility of a government? To look after the best interests of its own people?
;)
Granted, it would be nice if the US were more of a team player and helped everybody else out for the sake of sheer niceness, but people and the sociopolitical/economic entities they associate with are, by their very nature, self-serving.
That's what such entities are created for; take care of their own. It's all fine and dandy, provided that a person/sociopolitical/economic entity does so without infringing upon another's ability to do the same.
In Iraq, US action was necessary to protect its interests. The methods did interfere with how Iraq was going about serving its best interests, but that issue is null because Iraq's own actions interfered with the rights of another nation.
Most Americans feel no connection to East Timor, so it's not considered an important issue in addition to there being little to no sociopolitical or economic benefit to be gained. Selfish, yes. Wrong, perhaps. Illegal, no.
Non-Americans like to complain about this as if their country wouldn't dare to act in such a manner, perhaps because of their inherent "niceness." I guarantee that if any other nation were in the position of the US today, that nation would behave in exactly the same way. That's the dark side of human nature. It sucks.
There is a light at the end of that tunnel, but most people here seem to regard it as B.S., so I'll leave it there.
I don't seem to recall the US tagging itself as a team player, anyhow. The speaches I recall from the Gulf War days by President Bush involved phrases to the effect of "protect the interests of the American people. Oh, and help those nice people in Kuwait get rid of their invaders, too, yeah, that's it." The propaganda circulated through the media, though, emphasized helping Kuwait kick out a Hitler wannabe. Sneaky, sneaky.
I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
Oh yeah, ESR better be carefull. With all your guns, the feds may one day surround your house and burn it down.
Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!
With our flesh and blood, let us build our new Great Wall!
The GNU programmers faces its greatest danger.
From each one the urgent call for action comes forth.
Arise! Arise! Arise!
Millions with but one heart,
Braving the enemy's fire.
March on!
Braving the BillG's F-U-D.
March on! March on! On!
(replying to myself).
Sigh. I -never- get moderated up. I post as an AC because I expect to get moderated down and don't want to hurt my karma, and I get not just one but *two* points.
I can't win.
Thanks for playing, anyway!
:
The Chinese "Air Traveller Rocket with Report" is known all over the world as a dependable, effective rocket. They also have a number of larger rockets, including Glittering Butterflies, Cluster Bees, among others.
So BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I agree that war is not about to be caused by China, it makes no economical sense. It is United States that I would be worried about. For one thing, it still didn't sign that treaty about Nuclear weapons, right? What is that all about?
In Bejing, the Capital of China, there are two very white strips of writing on the red wall, right by chairman Mao's picture(They are big, you can see it all the way across from the tian an men square). One side talks about the longevity of communism and chinese people. The other side hails the longevity of WORLD PEACE! Thats right, It is some thing that was carved in to China as a country when it was formed!
I suggest that every one find a translator and go and take a look at it. where do you see, any where in the United States, or in any country, that opening proclaims that there should be WORLD PEACE in a place that represents national pride?
But technological advancement does not impede world peace, it extends it! So I think millitary considerations should not be such a high priority. In this world, its all about who does the right thing, not who has the biggest gun.
Try this if you don't think so. Start boycotting Chinese produce today to protest ________(what ever, human rights issues, epsionage, what ever you can think of.) See how happy you will be a week from today.
Or try this, make your kid stop watching pokemon for a week. See how happy you will be.
Its nolonger about guns and radars, and missiles. In the new world order, the information age, no one oughta be willing to damage human life to get what he wants. the war is fought on a very different plane.
enjoy.
What kind of commie motherfucker are you, 'Anti-linux postcards'?!? I'll bet you're a commie!
>Actually, you are wrong. The USA *did* have rocket technology during WWII; the reason they "acquistioned" German rocket scientists was to keep them from falling into Soviet hands.
Well technically the US had Robert Goddard, and the Germans had a missle capable of hitting London from Germany (the V2). A lot of countries had the beginnings of rocket technology during WWII but the Germans were the best at it, thus the scramble for German scientists after the war. I'm sure keeping them out of Soviet hands had something to do with it, but so did the US desire for the technology.
IIRC most of the US space program was based on WWII German work, and on that carried out by German scientists "recruited" into NASA at the end of the war.
bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
Global strike capability is new to china. They have never had the long range bombers or submarines that the US and Russia rely on as our secong strike force. China is making some slow gains in the submarine field, but they can't rely on them for SLBM's quite yet. The biggest gains in all this is the diplomatic power that ICBM's give them. They're in a new league now. A league that previously had two teams, Us and Russia.
Cuba was a politically repressive kleptocracy before the Communists kicked the pro-American Mafiosi out of power. This doesn't mean that Castro was much better. A Cuban-born friend of mine remembers growing up under the political repression of Batista - people were afraid to say things in their own houses because they'd get hauled away and killed at night. After the revolution, it was better for a few months, but became repressive and unsafe soon after, and his (anti-Batista) parents sent him to the US at age 14 so he wouldn't be drafted and sent to fight in Africa or Bolivia. Didn't like it here, and he's now a Costa Rican.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.
I mean, hello? If something exists elsewhere, why re-invent the wheel? There are lots of programmers here, right? Don't you try finding libraries for things that have already been done instead of re-implementing everything yourself?
You COULD implement everything yourself, but that'd take a lot more time, and is just plain silly.
Re-inventing the wheel is generally considered a STUPID thing to do. Yet, if people don't do it in these cases, they're being inferior and incapable of coming up with something themselves. I see it as just common sense.
OK, I'm off topic - deal with it.
Did anyone else follow the link to china daily?
This is a highlight?
Let's hear the rest of the list.
When did you last see one of that species?
I guess we must respectfully disagree on what constitutes "human civilization". FYI, I was involved with and put on panels for Physicians for Social Responsibility when I was in medical school in the early 1980s, and I appreciate the interesting recent citation (I'm still a Physics Today reader, unlike Scientific American's more obvious editorial policy). I'm just not willing to risk an error even in a decent peer review publication when it can affect the lives of every part of the planet except Cincinnati.
Much of what you cited were human rights violation, but how is that related to being a threat to the rest of the world?
A bad attitude towards the rights of ones own population, aggresiveness in the former soveriegn nation of Tibet, the possesion of intercontinental ballistic missiles armed with nuclear weapons, and an interesting little demonstration involving shooting missles into the straits of Taiwan seems to be to me to be a fair amount of evidence of a threat to the rest of the world.
OK, I'm willing to if you are... as long as we don't have to sing "Kumbaya" again....
"China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..."
i'm almost positive a french guy flew on a russian craft once. unless they mean "send them there themselves," but that's not what that sentence is saying.
This is true, as much as I hate to admit it.
intellectual property rights are not necessarily part of capitalism
-DAVEO
>...and space shuttles taking off from Sweden. Last time I looked there were none.
You're looking in the wrong place, the European Space Agency lauch Ariane from French Guiana (sp?) on the North coast of South America.
Just a thought but is the ESA the only space programme to involve more then one coutry?
Bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
No kidding wonko, If it weren't for the US most of China would be the southern resource area for Japan right now.
Not so. The US consistently only volunteers to help where things are in its best interest. And not only in the military sense. Iraq? Oil. Taiwan? Computers (witness the infamous "Earthquake in Taiwan? Oh no! RAM prices will go up!" comments).
East Timor. Doesn't have a lot to offer the US, so they stay way the hell away. The US isn't a team player, it leans heavily towards self-interest.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
please. those who launched the space program (the gov) are not oppressed at all. they are the oppressors.... therefore i think something is amiss indeed, if they launch rockets (w/ russia's help) while have their people starving at the same time. same goes for india/pakistan w/ nuclear program, russia and its war in chetchnia etc.
Personally I wouldn't find inventing McDonald's something to be proud of ;-)
America may have *popularised* things, but they certainly didn't invent as much as you think. Certainly, the car was invented in Europe, not America. And who invented rocketry, which America likes to use? Oh, it was China, a mere couple of thousand years before the modern American state was formed.
You mustn't forget that China is an old country with a far more interesting past than that of the USA. The recent communist era is a mere blip in the history of that place. Thankfully, China is opening up more these days. Yes, their human rights record is poor. But that of the USA isn't so good either. On the international scene I'm sure China creates less hassle than the USA. The US can be a good place. But it's not perfect. And you certainly didn't invent everything - so don't believe the brainwashers who say you did!
The first Saylut missions might have come earlier.... not 100% sure.
Let's not forget that the rocket itself is a Chinese invention.
Oops! And yet I heard this on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation Radio Two news just in the last two weeks. However, they indicated that it had just become true this year (1999). Thanks for the egoboo - and if you're not yet a member of at least one of the following organizations, join ASAP: the Planetary Society, the Mars Underground and the Artemis Society. Remember, as the last Publisher's Clearing House letter addressed to Mr. Sauropod said, "Big Rocks from Space? You may already be a Winner!"
This is old news. The Chinese have launched and retrived 15 FSW (Fanhui Shi Weixing - Recoverable Satellite) satellites since 1975. Generally thought by western observers to be photo-recon satellites, similar to the old US Corona and the Soviet Zenit. One curious fact about them is that they use wood (oak) as a quite effective heatshield material.
You're entirely right. And the Russians where the first ones to send an unmanned object to space, they where the first ones to send animals to space and they where the first ones to send cosmonauts/astronauts to space. And the only reason they wheren't the first ones to get asrtonauts to the moon was because they had an unfortunate accident, just like the Challenger accident but worse. And they have also put up the most succesful spacestations. So it is certainly not only the USA;ians that can put things in space. And I just want to say that the article is a bit wrong, this was NOT the first unmanned shuttle China has sent to space. That was a sattelite called 'The East is Red'. /Erik
Erik Dalén
Let's not forget that Bush stopped the transfer of technology after T'iannamen square. Clinon in '92 calls them the Butchers of Beijing. Then all of a sudden he's buddy-buddy with them. And let's also not forget that Riady family money was going into Arkansas as far as I've seen, in the mid 80s. Something fishy to you?
You know what gets me about stories like this? It's that I have to read so many *stupid* posts made by arrogant, self-centered US citizens. I hate that it's these few people who are doing the most mouthing and getting the most attention drawn to them. It's really no wonder the rest of the world is starting to hate us. I hate those same people and I'm about as American as they come.
Please don't judge all Americans by the example set by the few that seem to do the most talking. I keep seeing posts that say things like "you Americans are all the same" or "Americans are so arrogant". Geez, come on. Stop making blanket statements like that. We're not ALL alike.
The United States of America has done a great deal for the world; that's true. However, the good ol' US of A isn't spic-n-span clean and we're FAR from self-sufficient. The world has done more for us than we have for it. Hell, the simple fact that we're only a couple hundred years old should make that point fairly obvious. Yeah, we seem to be "on top" right now, but that changes. It absolutely will change. And when it does, you better hope we have some friends still around or else the US of A will be no more.
I guess this post is making a dual plea. First, to my fellow Americans that are making all these ridiculous posts...grow up! Look around you. The "rest" of the world is a hell of a lot larger than we are; their interests and opinions are more important than ours and you better learn that. Second, to those non-US folks reading all these posts and drawing blanket conclusions about Americans...stop it! You're falling into a trap unknowingly set by these idiots. We're not all that simple minded and we're not all that hateful.
China's navy *does* pose a threat not only to the Pacific Rim but the entire Pacific atleast. If China's navy poses no threat then why are countries allowing them to annex territory at will? Just check out Proceedings or Janes to find more info about China's navy. The U.S. (Clinton administration) has actively helped China upgrade their surface fleet. They are buying advanced subs from Russia. Many military analysts consider China's navy the biggest threat in the Pacific by 2010. Who here wants to see the U.S. and China fight it out over Taiwan? Not me. But we'll have to if it comes to that.
Hmm.
Space is pretty big.
More junk won't hurt us.
By the time there's starting to be "too much junk," we'll have moved to other planets and it won't be an issue.
Why don't you ask Dalai Lama what he thinks about that??
Mikael Jacobson
This administration has compromised national security like none previously. Nuclear secrets flowed from the DoE. The means to deliver the product of those secrets were sold/given via executive orders signed by Clinton. You my friend had better whisk the myopia from your vision to preserve your life. And just in case you're not aware... China's government has a policy of forced abortions and they sell organs from prisoners. And umm, just to remind you... China doesn't have a habeus corpus or the right to a trial by peers. Get out into the real world sometime jack.
I believe all you americans forgot about the canadian contribution to "your" space program. Canada worked hand in hand with NASA on past and present projects. That and the fact that many of the engineers on the initial space projects were Ex-Avro engineers who were out of work after the Arrow fiasco. Althoguh Canada doesn't send up it's own rockets with astronauts, we do train our own.
Not just Americans. I lived for a long time in Taiwan and I don't trust China either...
You've got more arable land, more easily retreived resources and shorter winters. Congratulations.
We had the strength and ingenuity to take the land and hold it. The strong survive.
the one quality I prefer and live in Canada to enjoy is simple civility and tolerance.
Your vaunted "civility and tolerance" just means you choose not to be free. If I want to be rude and intolerant, it is my right to express my views, regardless of their content, be it with actions or with words. Nobody may interfere with my rights. If it's a problem for somebody else, they can damn well deal with it or leave. This is called "freedom".
People are "civil and tolerant" for one reason: Fear. They fear to express their views. They fear to offend anybody. They fear retribution from individuals and from the State. They are slaves, little better than animals.
You may even recall the 1980 "Canadian caper" when six American diplomats were smuggled out of Iran as Canadians using authorized Canadian passports issued under the personal direction of our then Prime Minister Joe Clark. It's a good idea to keep on good terms with your friends: you never know when you may need help.
You'll damn well help us when we tell you to, and you'll shut up and like it. With our military and the strength of our Freedom we can and will crush you like a bug if you ever bother us. It's the nature of the world that the strong must rule. We are strong. You are weaklings, genetic failures. We may choose to tolerate you but we have no obligation not to destroy you if it suits our purposes.
It is now "the yellow planet".
No wait, we claim Mars in the name of Communism, so now it's REALLY "the red planet". Well, more accurately, "the people's red planet".
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
What's bad about China going into space... is it at the US' expense?
So when will China begin to oppress space aliens? I assume it's not too far off. :)
And by the way, why the hell do they need to be up in space with all the space they have in their damn country already!
"I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research."
.
Man, do YOU have a distorted view of things. Sputnik, and the things that followed were all about the cold war. Posturing, demonstrating to the world that you could put a nuke in their front yard any day of the week.
Further space developments were more of the same; "I can beat you up, but I'll show you that I can also spend 8 hours a day in the gym shooting up steroids and pumping iron until I'm an overdeveloped mutant! Just to drive the point home."
Or do you have an alternate explanation as to why we went to the moon, and haven't been back in 25 years, and why we built thousands of nukes in the 80's when we really only need a few hundred to completely fuck over all life on this planet?
This is what the entire space program is for.
While it's nice that Science got a free ride for a lot of research, (thanks for the heavy lifters guys, oh, sure, you can use a few, don't forget the press releases, wouldn't want to light one of these bad boys off without the less fortunate nations knowing we got 'em!" it was not done in the name of science, it was done in the name of cold war posturing.
Now, China wants in on the game. Well, I don't say welcome, and thanks for reinventing the wheel. I say, SUCKERS! boy, you sure fell for that ABM stuff, hook, line and sinker.
I guess we'll be digging you guys out of your economic rubble in another 10 years, just like the former USSR, that is if you don't launch on us. .
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Another "Space Race" to Mars is not what we need.
We need space "Exploration", not the charge towards a defined goal and then the total abandonment of the project once the political ends have been achieved.
I think it is great that another nation now joins in on space research in this most direct way. The more authorities work on this, the more research is done, the greater the change that man will conquer space. Do try to work together with the others though.
A small plea to the chinese government: Please do not abuse the technological advances you gain from this for military purposes. (Like the U.S. and Russia) Be good! Put the technology into use by chinese companies instead, and give them the technology advantage. Your nation will be better of by doing this.
Oh, and to you americans complaining about human rights in China: Yes, I know the chinese government isn't always "Mr. Nice Guy". But please do take a look at your own front porch before complaining about everybody else. (I'm not trying to troll here, I just think that there are so many questionable things about the U.S. that you ought to look into first.) You may call me naive, but I sincerely believe that the more technologically advanced China gets, the better will the conditions for the people living there become. I do not mind that China has a communist government, since I do believe that communism done right will actually work a lot better than capitalism done wrong (like in modern Russia, and in some aspects the U.S.).
- the Crazy Fraggle
Insightful? more like flamebait.
... just brilliant guys ... bright as hell and talented and professional to a man."
US space program was built by europeans
Really? A few ex-Nazi rocket scientists captured from Peenemunde do not a manned space program make.
Damn straight North American brother!!! Sure a few of the basic ideas for getting things going came from those German guys. But when the chips were down and the Apollo program needed to kick it up a notch to catch up with those blasted ruskies the US knew where to turn to... that's right Canada. Dief took the order from his yankee masters and the Arrow program was scrapped.
Jim Chamberlain, Owen Maynard, John Hodge...the list goes on and on...
Avro Employees and NASA
Post-Arrow Brain Drain from Canada
Canada's Gift to NASA
Owen Maynard
A quote from the book Apollo - The Race to the Moon
"As the Space Task Group's burden was threatening to overwhelm the entire project, the Canadian government unintentionally gave the American Space program its luckiest break since Wernher von Braun had surrendered to the Americans...while little public recognition was ever granted the Canadians their contribution was incalculable to the people within the programs. One of the group's top American engineers even claimed that the Canadians had it all over us in many areas
Hey I'm not saying that the Canadians did it all and there weren't any great and brilliant Americans working on the projects. Obviously there were. But no nation got into space by it's own efforts alone. America included.
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
I've always thought that the Soviet/Russian/Kazahkstani space program was much more serious than the US media driven events. They spent the last ten years maintaining a continuous human presence in space. Yes, I know Mir is not functioning any more, and yeah, it got pretty shaky up there towards the end, but what they achieved there remains the single most important and impressive aspect of any space program that there's been so far.
The Chinese should be congratulated n what they've achieved just recently, and hopefully they'll rise to the challenges of having people live in space too.
-- "This is the Space Age, and we are Here To Go" - W.S.Burroughs
I'm pleased and impressed that China has entered club of spacefaring nations. I'm also thinking: forget "Hilton in space", how about "Happy Good Luck House, Chinese food to eat in or take out" ;-D
Yes, but there was a differnt treaty which forbid the US of Russia from placing offensive weapons in space regardless of detonation
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
I'm afraid to break the news to you, but that would NOT mean China is only the third country to send austronauts to space. If they were successful, it would make China the third country to send astronauts to space in their own space shuttle. I'm absolutely positively sure that us Canadians have sent our own austronauts into space in NASA space shuttles, and it's possible that other countries also have similar partnerships between their space programs and either the U.S. or Russia.
Maybe that's what we should do with Microsoft!
Split them into four divisions, hand one over to Sun, one to IBM, one to Apple, and one to Oracle.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Sorry if my earlier post was unclear: both my siblings and all of their kids have moved to the US and the kids have dual US/Canadian citizenship. US institutions are frequently equally corrupt and often less so than their Canadian or other equivalents. And there's nothing wrong in following opportunity where the social and economic policies are directed towards the creation of wealth. I'm glad to say the US is probably the most benign empire in history and certainly the one least likely to do anything to deliberately jeopardize its interests, unlike the former USSR which was preparing to survive a nuclear exchange. But with all due admiration to my many American friends and family,and having travelled to over forty countries, including 28 US states, I just have no desire to *live* there. Obviously, with net Canadian immigration up to the US, not everyone agrees. Look at how many Scots moved to England when she was a world empire. No judgment against either: opportunity simply attracts. Frankly, I don't care if the US went to the moon for JFK to embarrass Krushchev or for all mankind. I'm simply glad some part of humanity actually *got* there. I just want us to go back and among other goals have at least enough humans there or elsewhere living in space to form an independently sustainable technological civilization no matter what happens to Earth.
Sigh.. The Chinese have had long distance rockets for years. If they wanted to blow up something, they can. This doesn't add to their war abilities in any way.
Well after removing their motivation to work for 20-30 years, you honestly couldn't expect them to become competitve against other very motivated workers. Seriously, the reason they are doing worse is because the workers in those cuntries are lazier
From what I understand things in cuba were so bad for the common person, under batista, that any leader who actually cared about the wellbeing of the people couldnt help but drastically improve things. That is probably the best part about cuba is I beleave that Castro actually gives a shit about the average cuban. How many other leaders can you say that about? In fact if this country ever stoped holding its 30 year old grudge against castro then cuba would probably become the best place on earth to live. at least untill castro dies.
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth.
I don't believe that a lot of the people on this board are blaming Clinton for the Chinese being able to launch a vehicle into space.
I don't believe it because I know that a lot of them also think the US encryption export rules are stupid, and most people think they're stupid because the information is going to get out anyway, that the rules serve no purpose.
I agree with that; they don't. Information will get out. It will leak, or it will be independently discovered, or it will be reverse engineered from observation. Do you think that this applies only to encryption? It does not. It's something that always occurs at the nexus of knowledge and human nature.
I think a lot of people know this, and I am disappointed that a lot of people disregard what they know so that they can preserve an opportunity to bash the Chinese and/or Clinton.
Get a life. Stop sitting there wishing that a fifth of the world's population would live in the aerospatial dark ages just because you don't like them, or because it doesn't match up with your political agenda. They won't, and that's a good thing.
-k. ^-^ ^D
"Defence Secretary McNamara announced on 18th September 1967 plans for the Sentinel ABM defence system. This replaced the Nike X system and changed its focus from a general US defence to one of protecting against Chinese missile attack. At the time the Chinese were exploding nuclear devices and it was felt that they would have an ICBM capability around 1970.
There were a number of reasons for the US to switch to a Chinese threat. It allowed them to continue talks with the Soviets about arms reduction, handling a Chinese threat also presented a fewer number of targets that the ABM system was required to intercept when compared to a Soviet attack and also, it provided defence against a rogue missile launching either from the Soviets or Chinese or anyone else who decided to launch a missile to the US. It was essentially a system designed to be non-threatening to the Soviets. "
I find the last paragraph interesting as well. The Russians still have far more ICBMs than the Chinese.
I have to agree with the non-American posters on this article; the response has been typically American: arrogant, ignorant, insular, paranoid, belligerent and an attitude of what's good for the US of A is good for the world and that if someone else develops advanced technology they must have stolen it from the US. PUKE!!!!! For the record the first ICBMs were deployed by the USSR, not the US, and that was over 40 years ago. Like nuclear weapons, this is pretty old technology now.
Personally (a) I don't see how the ability to orbit a human makes it any easier to develop an ICBM guidance system (b) all they're doing is scaling up from a long-standing satellite launch program (c) as a world citizen I am pleased to see another nation take up the batton of manned space flight that's been dropped by the Russians.
It looks a lot like a slightly scaled-up Soyuz. This is no passing resemblance. I'd hazard a guess that Shenzhou will preform very simliarly to Soyuz.
This post is a bit long but please bear with me. The nice thing about Russia's own Soyuz spacecraft is that the technology is very mature and reliable. After 30 years of operation a Soyuz or Progress flight is a walk in the park, logistics-wise. Although Soyuz has its limitations we're able to depend on it and pull off missions with a minium of effort. However, the economical and political situations in Russia and Kazakhstan are making Soyuz ops quite awkward.
Without support from Progress and Soyuz flights the International Space Station f*cked. The ISS is hopelessly bogged down in bureaucracy and political cocksucking.
Shenzhou is a brand new (unproven) spacecraft that merely resembles Soyuz in the same way that Buran resembles the shuttle orbiter. It also hails from red China. China has a lot of bugs to work out and lots of experience yet to gain. If you ignore the political and economic factors, Soyuz still wins over Shenzhou, IMHO.
China's new spacecraft is coming at a very interesting point in history. The International Space station depends on flights from Soyuz and Progress spacecraft. Progress-M's will be used heavily for resupply and Soyuz-TM's will be the only emergency lifeboat available until the X-38/Crew Rescue Vehicle comes online in 2006.
The US has been extra-friendly with China recently. I don't think that China is the kind of nation the US should be favoring. Their human-right abuses are well known. Despite that, I can forsee a future where NASA and China team up to complete the International Space Station. It goes like this:
Scary, eh? Yeah, I know it's only hypothetical. NASA showed poor judgement, IMHO, by depending on the Russians so heavily. We knew that they have lots of problems of their own besides flying rockets. The ISS has been a white elephant for over a decade. Only problem is, now we've got components on orbit and the world is watching and waiting for it to get built.
Ever hear of Calculus? Not invented by an American. Also: Penicillin, Reletivity, HTML, the computer, paper, gunpowder, the car (despite what you said) - infact nothing is invented in America, or anywhere else, from science that is solely the possesion of that country. Some countries have a history and culture that enables rapid development and change, and in this area the US has excelled for 100 years. But that can change.
As far as "trusting China", the original party was right, we don't. TO be more precise, we don't trust the Chinese Communist Party, and I feel we are right not to. They've never done anything for us. On the other hand, that 28 year old kid in Shanghai with a cell phone attached to his head, trying to figure out how to put together his next deal, him I trust. I understand him, and I know what he'll do if given the opportunity. And he will do well, for the world and for China if he's allowed to follow his instincts.
You don't see headlines reguarding airplanes succesfully taking off do you? However people do find it significant when they crash, because that doesn't happen so often. This latest Chinese acheivement is in the US press because it is a first for them. Our dealings with the Chinese government in the past (the government, not the people), suggest that it is a possibility they stole our technology.
Check out this website
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
We (Canadadians) *are* hitchhikers as long as we have to use anyone else's launch system to put Marc Garneau (a very funny man in person and I hope he gets a third flight), Chris Hadfield et sequelae into orbit. (And our female astronauts are better looking than anyone elses, including the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova) Obviously, we'd be mad to build our own manned launch systems so as long as we can sing for our ride with the US. But they're *still* driving. Remember the third nation to have a satellite in space was Canada, and that former AVRO employees made a BIG difference in getting Apollo to the moon. Just so that you knew our labours showed our true colours;-)
Ahh, the mask has slipped and the real America emerges. Perhaps people will wake up and realize who is the true enemy of the world.
The number of the Beast is 50.
The official reason for the PRC getting a permanent seat on the UN Security Counsel is exactly as you say. But I think the *real* reasons are slightly more complex: In 1971, Nixon wanted to play the "China card", the PRC already had enough nuclear ICBMs to be taken seriously and would within a few years (and certainly by 1990) have enough yield to destroy human civilization (which is not the same thing as all human life since destruction of human civilization would still leave Cincinnati standing - don't get me started). PRC has more yield than the Ukraine even when it was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Try public and governmental sources. M'goi. Joy Geen.
Do you have anything to back up your statements,
or is this just racism speaking? Space scientists
in America after World War II included some prominent
ex-nazis from Germany. Does this mean it's hilarious
to claim that the space shuttle was developed by US
scientists?
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
The point is, their government doesn't really like us at all.
You know what? MOST governments, including most Western European ones.. hell.. even most citizens of most countries.. don't like the US government very much at all, and I think they're completely justified.
China pretty much keeps to themselves. Sure, there are internal human rights violations, and that's a problem, but at least China's not stomping around the world violating other countries' citizens' rights.
So yeah, China doesn't like the US government very much.. it's because no one likes the US government very much.
As I said before, the people don't have control over the government, do they?
That's a really naive statement. Just because the government does bad things certainly does NOT mean they are not at all accountable to the people. They are. Ultimately, making your people happy is the best way to stay in power. Why do you think China has been slowly but surely progressing to be more open both economically and (yes) politically? It's because that's what the people want.. it's because that's how people are made happier.
Freedom of speech in China still needs work, but it has improved greatly since 1989. Those students who protested DID have an effect. The government isn't going to just agree to all demands outright, but they are slowly implementing the changes that people want.
(Before you say so, yes, there are some areas where the government won't budge, like Tibet. But that doesn't mean they haven't been improving in other areas.)
Thank you for your frank reply.
(1) The strong do not always survive - Sparta didn't. After losing one major battle, their police state society never recovered. Seizing is not the same as maintaining, as the Akkadians learned to their regret after everyone else learned how to build chariots. Strength and ingenuity are necessary but not sufficient conditions for empire, as the Nazi Reich demonstrated.
(2) I am in Canada by choice - I have standing job offers in Los Angeles and New York. If I decide to live in Canada with no restraint on my freedom to move, then I am free. If you think no-one may interfere with your rights, you don't understand the Constitutional basis of the US Government, which fought a Civil War between 1860 to 1865 which very much interfered with both "states' rights" and the then very legal concept (see the "Dred Scott" decision of your US Supreme Court immediately prior to the Civil War) of human slavery. Don't forget how much of the early economic expansion of the US is the direct result of slavery as a legal institution. When the rights of such people were "interfered with", the other people dealt with it not by leaving, but by lynching, whipping, raping or maiming such people, and such was not "freedom", but rather "licence". When Speer and other Nazis did it to the parents of friends of mine, these were characterized at Nuremberg as "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity", and many (although unfortunately not Speer) were executed for it by the Allies, which included Canada in 1939 but not the US until December 8, 1941. Don't confuse "freedom" with "licence" as most people understand the distinction before they are arrested as juvenile delinquents. If you think anyone does anything for only one reason, your world is much simpler than most. Canadians appreciate and apply "civility and tolerance" for many reasons. First, the major Canadian issue has always been simple survival. A winter up here can kill you, your food production and your property in decreasing levels of importance. Being civil with your neighbours and learning to cooperate dramatically increases the chances of all of you living until the spring. In winter, not stopping for a stalled vehicle on the roadside makes it more likely that if you find yourself in similar circumstances that you may die before rescue. Secondly, Canada formed in 1867, two years after the end of the Civil War in order to avoid lethal conflicts between local and federal governments. As a direct result of the bloodbath to the south, we wanted to avoid using violence to solve our political problems. As a recent contrast, please note that after the federal government became involved in the Oka standoff that no-one died, in stark contrast to the US Waco fiasco. As far as tolerance is concerned, we have a "mosaic" rather than a "melting pot" approach to immigration. In a few generations every group that arrives here will have settled in. In Canada, we think we can learn from others. For example, I'm of diverse North European heritage (not one set of my great-grandparents had a language in common), yet I cook Lebanese and eat spaghetti with chopsticks. The only soup I make is Ukranian borscht. NOT ONE of the languages I speak was the birth language of any great-grandparent, with the exception of one of my great-grandparents who was a Sheriff in Montana after the Civil War before he met a cute Mennonite gal while travelling to Saskatchewan. I live in a neighbourhood in which there is a large immigrant population from over twenty different countries, most of which countries did not exist fifty years ago. Many of these people considered themselves as slaves or nearly so as minorities, religious or otherwise in their countries of origin. They came to Canada to be free. Now their kids are marrying each other and those kids're not worried about retribution from anyone. We've learned not to be afraid of our differences. You may wish to try this.
(3) We beat you in a straight fight in 1812, and
killed a hell of a lot of people in the Boer War, two world wars, Korea and even helped in Vietnam. Other allies were unable to take several military objectives such as Vimy Ridge despite massive support of men and materiel, whereas Canadian troops finally got them. Soldier for soldier, we gave the Nazis more grief than did US or British troops per capita. Don't underestimate our morale in a fight we think we are entitled to win. Hockey is not a game for wimps.
If you tried a military occupation of Canada you would not have a single supporter in the world with the possible exception of any client military dictatorship you are propping up this week. We don't go along with you except when you've been right, and frequently not even then (look at our consistently high trade with both Cuba and the PRC even in mid Cold War).
As far as the true nature of the world, you may wish to reconsider the concept of "strength". An elephant is mightier than a wasp, but the wasp can kill the elephant from anaphalactic shock. A virus can kill a whale. If you define strength only militarily, you may find yourself wondering why even with Canadian forces assisting you that the Vietnam conflict turned out as it did. America's victory in Vietnam, like Japan's victory in Asia, came about through mutual trade following military defeat.
An America which tried to rule the world militarily would be as effective as a man with a staple gun in the midst of a paper blizzard. Besides, aside from morons like Adolph Hitler or Jiang Zhemin, who would actually *want* to rule the world militarily? America's global leadership comes through knowing what fights to pick and how to fight - usually not militarily except as part of a wider coalition. Often, Canadian influence can and has helped the US when its own resources were unable to accomplish the goal. I gave the example of the "Canadian caper" in the midst of the Iranian Hostage Crisis simply because it is well known, but there are other, less well known examples.
As for genetic failures, well, many Canadians had ancestors in the US and many Americans have moved here. Canadians are the largest single alien population in the US. (BTW, my job offers are from Americans, one a Japanese immigrant and the other a Mayflower descendant). Both my siblings and all their children live in the US. Assuming you have children, and assuming that they'll pay the slightest attention to your opinions in reproductive matters, you may well wish to check to see whether their potential mates came from Canada. Obviously you would not want your children to marry such Canadian riff-raff as Peter Jennings, Robert MacNeil, Shanaia Twain, Alanice Morissette, Sarah MacLachlin, Shannon Tweed, Pamela Anderson (well, maybe the last two), etc. Don't you feel even slightly absurd defending a Nazi concept like genetic superiority when so many people, including finally some Americans, died to stop such madness from spreading?
And if you think you have no obligation not to destroy us, you are clearly unaware of the many treaties and declarations that the US has signed, including the UN Declaration of Human Rights, just for starters. Don't you realize that the Nazis paid the price at Nuremburg for exactly this policy? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The reason why most people don't act like Conan the Barbarian is because mutually satisfactory relations are positively reinforcing and tend to be stable or grow over time while all relations based on unilateral force eventually fail. If you're a parent, think of the success one enjoys when telling an adult child "because I say so". Ghandi got more with nonviolence than all the fighters ever accomplished to get Britain out of India.
I think you may need to reconsider not only how you define "freedom", but also "strength" and even "success". I wish you well and hope you don't try this approach with your friends, neighbours and family, particularly if you are still childless. Try visiting us - you may find out new approaches. Good luck, neighbour, and thanks for writing.
While not exactly paper, papyrus was used in Egypt thousands of years before paper was invented in China.
The compariason between the PRC and modern Germany is pretty absurd. First of all WWII ended over 50 years ago, after the end of the war Germany was partitioned off into four sections (the US, the UK and France each had a chunk of what became West Germany, the USSR had East Germany) most of the Nazi power structure was hung at Nuremburg or sentenced to life in prison a whole new government was established and thanks in part to the Marshall plan West Germany was rebuilt very quickly and humanely after the war. Currently Germany has very strict anti-facism laws and every German I've spoken with is deeply ashamed by the atrocities commited by the Nazi's. It seems to me that same PRC that invaded Tibet, sent troops to Korea, sent tanks against unarmed students in Tiamimen (sp?) square and has commited just about every human rights violation possible is still in power.
It seems that there really is no grounds for comparison between the two, until the Communist power structure has been ousted and a democratic government established, with no connections to the old power base, can you rightfully compare modern Germany to the PRC. However if you were trying to compare modern China to Nazi Germany I think you've got an excellent point.
"Listen: We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" - Kurt Vonnegut
What are you so upset about? Isn't the red menace what made the republican party so great? Wasn't living in fear of imminent death the best thing to ever happen to america? Lets start another paranoid demented stage in america's history.
There is a Carl Sandburg poem that I have hanging on my cubicle wall; it pretty much sums up what you are trying to say. I use it to remind me that power is not eternal. The subjects of an empire must be eternally vigilant if they want their empire to last eternally; a lot of things can happen to destroy it.
Anyway it goes something like this; I am reciting from memory since I am not near my cube right now:
It has happened before;
Strong men put up a city, and got a nation together,
and paid singers to sing, and women to warble:
This is the greatest city, the greatest nation,
Nothing like us ever was.
And while the singers sang, and the strong men listened,
And paid the singers well, and felt good about it all,
There were rats and lizards who listened.
And the only listeners left, now, are the rats and the lizards.
And there are crows, crying: "Caw! Caw!"
Bringing mud and sticks, building a nest
On the doors where the panels were cedar
And the strips on the panels were gold
And the golden girls came singing,
"We are the greatest city, the greatest nation,
Nothing like us ever was.
Now having said this, I do not believe that the Chinese space program poses a serious threat to the American empire. China will not be a serious military threat for at least 25 years, assuming that no great disaster occurs here and no technological leap occurs there. The future of mankind lies in space, and the more people we have sticking their heads up there the better it will be for all of our (grand?) children.
The absolute best thing that could happen would be that a competitive space industry based upon the pursuit of the profit motive would spring up overnight, launching us into the true space age. IMHO, of course, but I would like to walk on Mars someday and I don't see it happening in an era of socialized space exploration.
(btw, I went to an American school and I understood your translation of "land of islam". Most other people I have just asked in an impromptu poll knew as well... most even correctly identified Saladin, Kerbogha, and Kulavan.)
Scudder
... and there is no doubt, that one day he will be
where the eye of his telescope has already been
So when will China begin to oppress space aliens?
As soon as America has enslaved aliens and formed an organization called AKK (Alien Klux Klan), feel good about it and make every other country look bad and stay hypocrit.
I'm asking myself what some readers are doing on Slashdot if they don't have something worthy to say, except flamebaits and insults. If the moderation would be more effective, 75 percent of the messages would be marked as flamebait or redundant
I mean...that guy who calls every Chinese a chink, what's the deal? Why don't you do something useful in your life? No moderation means approval of such filthy comments. But most people approve things as long as they aren't attacked themselves, right? Unbelievable.
I think sitting in front of the screen all day has distorted your version of reality and completely fucked up your brain. You would still be using punch cards if it weren't for the development of military technology and space technology during the cold war and the space race. The instinct to SURVIVE drives technology and science forward. Why don't you go farm instead.
The heading is misleading. China had a space program for a long time. However they always used their rockets only to put satellites into orbit. This is their first spacecraft designed to allow humans to reach the orbit and come back. It was unmanned, may be next time it will have a crew.
The U.S. had nothing like a space program either until after WW2, and probably wouldn't have for a long while if it hadn't been for Germany's "emigrating" V-2 rocket scientists.
This has nothing to do with China and there policies. This has everything to do with your boy Bill and his exchange of missle technology for contribution from a foriegn government.
and BTW . . What made the Republican party so great is leaders like Lincoln who held a country together in a time of turmoil (where was your boy Bill when the government was shut down? A:With his nose in his interns pants).
you forget that we have astronauts that have or will command the shuttle.
Kun je wel tellen? Volgens mij zijn we met z'n 16 miljoenen. Of was die watersnood in Limburg hoger dan ik dacht?
China has been launching satellites for a while now. This is only the first launch of their manned spacecraft, but without an occupant. I am surprised no one else has noted this error.
--
Infuriate left and right
You're trying to tell us that the Chinese spent all that time pilfering secrets from America's top-secret government-funded research laboratories, and the only secrets they stole were for technology the United States' own space program abandoned almost 30 years ago? What the holy hell are you on about?
Please, go back to making Monica Lewinsky jokes or something. God knows, we could use more of those!
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Oh, really? I wonder if you'll be singing the same song when "Chinese scientists" suddenly develop Keyhole-type spy satellites and Star Wars type defenses that remarkably resemble the work done in the U.S. in the 1980's (and that coincidentally after numerous additional cases of espionage and "technology exchange" with borderline treasonous U.S. companies). What happens when the Chinese start selling these capabilities to our pals in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc. etc.
The world is a much more dangerous place because of this, and responsibility for this rests in large part with our brilliant leaders and strategists.
That Sandburg poem reminds me of the Lord Dunsany story "In Zaccarath". I'm not gonna make an ass of myself all over again after the dar al-Islam thing by assuming you haven't read it, but on the off chance that you haven't, it was in print as recently as a year ago in a collection called The Hashish Man. Good stuff, if you happen to have a weakness for Edwardian orientalism -- but doesn't everyone?!
Now having said this, I do not believe that the Chinese space program poses a serious threat to the American empire.
I agree. I wasn't trying to claim that China will be the end of us, just that we will have an end, as the Sandburg thing suggests: "On dune and headland sinks the fire" and whatnot.
Umm, by the way, my post wasn't intended to be a poem, it was just kinda pompous.
The future of mankind lies in space, and the more people we have sticking their heads up there the better it will be for all of our (grand?) children.
I agree fervently. That's part of why I was wandering around this discussion snarling at the paranoids.
I went to an American school and I understood your translation of "land of islam". Most other people I have just asked in an impromptu poll knew as well... most even correctly identified Saladin, Kerbogha, and Kulavan.
Where the hell do you work?! Can I work there too? Jeez, I recognize Saladin but not the others. That one phrase, by the way, is roughly half the Arabic I know. Actually, right now I can't remember what the other half was. Anyway, obviously it's not "my translation", I ran into it in a book about the 14th century Islamic world. According to the book, that term apparently had a meaning similar to what "Christendom" meant in Europe, but less Balkanized. If that usage is obscure or wrong, I abase myself and plead an American education
Why don't you ask Dalai Lama what he thinks about that??
Why don't YOU ask what Rodney King what he thinks about that?
Okay, so I'm talking out my ass about moveable type vs. linotype. Fine, have it your way, you and your damn facts . . . nothing spoils a good argument like facts, dammit!
At least I wasn't totally full of shit about the internet, right?
:)
Hi, this is the troll to whom you're responding.
It's late and I don't have the time or energy to reply in detail to your post, except to say that if it weren't for the fact that my fiance is an Israeli and intolerant of cold weather (Boston just about did her in, and Boston's not that bad), I'd think seriously about a move to Canada, based on your description. I'm sick unto death of the US, and we've been contemplating one place or another in the Commonwealth anyway, 'cause she has Australian citizenship too and the weather in Israel is way too warm for me. The only problem is that I can't fucking stand Sarah MacLaughlin (or however you spell it). Can I substitute Neil Young?
if you think you have no obligation not to destroy us, you are clearly unaware of the many treaties and declarations that the US has signed, including the UN Declaration of Human Rights, just for starters.
The current fashion in "conservative" [rimshot] thought in the US includes not only a revival of states' rights (which we fought that Civil War about, as you mention), but also some bizarre noises about "sovereignty". "Sovereignty", as used in Washington these days, is mainly a code word for violating treaties and refusing to pay our UN dues. The idea seems to be that if we abide by the terms of treaties we've signed, then we're somehow implying, by so doing, that the United States Government is answerable to somebody for its actions -- and if it's answerable to somebody other than its own citizens, then it must not be sovereign! Q.E.D.! This is not a joke. They mean it. They've turned the USA into some kind of tin god, to which no human standards of moral conduct apply when it deals with people other than its own citizens. We seem to have gotten beyond good and evil or something. As a nation dealing with other nations, pure self-interest now held to be the only Law we're permitted to recognize. In the past, God knows we've been amoral in our international dealings, but there was at least a pretense that Christian morality applied to our collective dealings as well as it applies to our individual dealings. But that view is obsolete now.
If you think we've learned any lessons from previous empires, don't kid yourself. They never learned either. Empires are like that.
Ghandi got more with nonviolence than all the fighters ever accomplished to get Britain out of India.
That's true, but don't forget that a few years earlier Michael Collins and friends kicked their Brit asses back across the water without missing a meal
Oh, if it's not obvious: My troll was a satire, an exaggerated caricature of the way some Americans think. I don't believe a word of that shit.
"I think sitting in front of the screen all day has distorted your version of reality and completely fucked up
your brain. You would still be using punch cards if it weren't for the development of military technology and
space technology during the cold war and the space race. The instinct to SURVIVE drives technology and
science forward. Why don't you go farm instead."
You may be right.
But I wasn't saying that it was all BAD. I was just saying that it's silly and unrealistic to believe that lofty goals of the "advancement of science" were the main force at work in the space race/cold war. When you dig down to it, yes, it WAS the instinct to SURVIVE, but when you take that to extremes, you start to think thinks like, gee it'd be nice if I ruled the world. Then I could truly optimize this survival thing.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The article is a little vague. Did this craft come down on water or dry land? They mention parachutes and retro-rockets and resemblance to Apollo. But the landing was within China, where I wouldn't think there'd be a large enough body of water to be safe. Anyone know?
...no tickee, no shirtee
NO civil rights.
Communists.
Military police own over a third of HK's brothels.
Give me a break. The only reason any western country looks at china is because they see dollar signs.
Many western leaders yearn for a slave population, no wonder they love china so.
If they can space one commie, why not space them all?
(I'm leaving out a lot of names here, of course, and in some cases the chronology is a guess, or else they overlap . .
Sumeria used to be a superpower.
Babylon used to be a superpower.
Egypt used to be a superpower.
Crete used to be a superpower.
Sparta used to be a superpower.
The Dar al-Islam (don't worry about it, I know you don't know what that means -- you went to American schools) used to be a superpower.
Rome used to be a superpower.
China used to be a superpower (oops, they are once again after a thousand or so years -- and they were before Rome, too).
Spain used to be a superpower.
The UK used to be a superpower.
The USSR used to be a superpower.
We're up next, moron.
This too shall pass. Get over it.
FUCK YOU
AMERICAN INVENTED THE SPACE PROGRAM YOUR JUST JEALOUS CAUSE YOUR FROM CANDADA YOU DONT HAVE A SPACE PROGRAM YOU CAONT DO SHIT
your just a bunch of stupid apes in camada can't even talk right can read can rite cant even win a fuckin war well FU7CK YOU DON"T MESS WITH THE U.S.
WE GOT THE BEST FUCKEN EDUCATI0ONL SYSTME IN THE WORLD AND YOU CAN T FUCKEN TOP THAT SO DONPT TRY THATS WHY WE GOT THE SPACE PROGRAM.
Well no, supposedly this technology is pretty much the same technology that the Russians and the US used on the 60s. Though I wouldn't put the Chinese beyond "stealing" our technology, I see no reason to believe that this technology necessarily had to come from us directly. Afterall, there was significant technology transfer from the Russia, and alot of the 60s technology is pretty much common knowledge now. Furthermore, the Chinese have some excellent engineers, and significant pockets of technological development.
If you read Insight Magazine (website at http://www.insightmag.com/), then you will have seen numerous reports on how poor security (and worse) has allowed a lot of space technology to leave the US for China.
As for the space shuttle, it's a pretty safe bet that it was developed by the US. Don't forget that it's like the 4th generation of US rocketry.
Chinese have been one of the most prolific launchers
in the world to date, regularly outstripping the
US and the former USSR in sheer launch
volume.
Really, to assume that a country as large, as
powerful and as determined as the People's Republic
of China wouldn't have advanced rocketry is really
quite bollocksey. A space-shuttle does not a
space-faring nation make.
That's my understanding, at any rate. One of the ways
they saved money was to use wood - cork and the like -
as the heat shields on their re-entry vehicles.
So I guess when those first Chinese astronauts come
up for re-entry, they'll knock on wood
"Ahh, Beijing? We have a problem..."
China, with 900,000,000 peasants, has to borrow money from overseas banks to provide even the most basic infrastructure for it's people, yet has enough money to run a space program.....methinks something be amiss.
wouldnt you think that mainland china has better things to spend their money in rather than sending men into space, something that the americans and russians have already done. Yes, i agree it will help the economy of the country, but then again it didnt help russia. as posted in other submissions, russia built the mir space station, which is a piece of metal flying around the earth now....who knows that china wants to do, much less what they want to put up in space...i would think china's government would want to improve the life quality of chinas people.
No doubt Chnese rocketry was influenced by the Amricans, the Russians, the Germans, and perhaps, gasp, the Chinese, who invented rocketry centuries ago... :)
I just keep thinking about fireworks.. and.. didn't the chinese invent those? or.. develop a lot of the technology that became those?
Insert mind here.
You love to bash people because you have no friends and no attention since your birth. What are you, some beerbellied baboon? There's so much jealousy against people who have success. Yes indeed, the U.S. government has succes in space programs, not you personally. Congratulations for NASA, but not you. Get a life. I'm a programmer and I knew a lot of losers who blocked me from having personal success. Most of them have lame jobs or live their lives in jail. People like you. There are a couple of mean guys in China. But there are also 1 billion other people if you didn't know that.
Yuri almost died during his decent when his Vostok service module didn't detach properly.
Leonov almost died while trying to get back into Vokshod II...his space suit had ballooned up to the point where he didn't fit in the airlock. He had to partially deflate the suit to get back in.
Yup, not to mention the first satellite in orbit, the first probes to the Moon and most planets, the first space station...
Sputnik I didn't return any useful scientific data AT all. It was a completely useless design forced on Korolev by Kruschev(how do you spell that, anyway). Korolev wanted to wait for what became Sputnik II to be completed. On the other hand, Explorer I discovered the van allen radation belts, something even Sputnik II missed.
In terms of space probes: most soviet "firsts" in this area returned almost no useful data. They spent so much time and energy on being first that the spacecraft themselves were almost universally useless.
One must also remember that the soviets (And the russians since) have never made it out of the inner solar system. Their dislike of computer technology has prevented them from being able to plot the low-energy sling-shot trajectories required to fling spacecraft out to the outer planets. Of course the US has sent 3 or 4 generations of spacecraft out of the inner solar system.
So, in the end, they have only sent probes to the moon, mars, and venus. While the US has been to every planet apart from Pluto.
Finally, the first crew of their first useful (they had one or two failed launches) space station died on reentry.
So the question becomes: Yeah, they were first in some things during the early days of the space age, but most of their firsts either returned no information or almost killed their occupants; can they really be said to have lead the space race in any useful sense?
This administration has compromised national security like none previously. Nuclear secrets flowed from the DoE. The means to deliver the product of those secrets were sold/given via executive orders signed by Clinton.
Your story has the same exaggerated, pseudo-factual feel as that bizarre "Y2K Martial Law" hoax that popped up on CBN last year, and many other similar paranoid fantasies that keep bobbing to the surface.
Your aggressive tone also sounds like a man bluffing with all his might.
Factual references, please? CBN doesn't count, nor the Michigan Militia web site, nor Posse Comitatus. Facts only. Thanks in advance.
The rest of your post wandered wildly off-topic, but I'll address it anyway just because I've got some time on my hands and I enjoy watching tiny little minds like yours at work.
China's government has a policy of forced abortions and they sell organs from prisoners.
The death penalty is moronic and barbaric regardless of the details. It's funny how US right wingers weep and wail over the terrible fate of criminals executed in China -- shot in the back of the head, oh my! -- while electrocuting or gassing them in the US as fast as they can, and furiously demanding laws to execute more. And some right-wingers are even demanding public executions. Golly. Well, hey, public or private, I'd rather be shot in the head than electrocuted. You've got a real good chance of dying right away. Sure, it may not be instant and you may suffer, but electrocution is painful too. I'd imagine that both of 'em beat torture, but I'd rather have a shot (no pun intended!
In an overpopulated country with limited resources and no capital to work around the limitations, it's not surprising that the government may fall back on the same ethics Western maritime law has sanctioned for centuries in lifeboats and similar situations: See that the group survives and fuck the airy-fairy individualic idealists. In marginal situations, nobody has a right to endanger the group just because he has tender little feelings about his needs and desires. It's rough, but it's Darwin and it's been going on for a long, long time. Like a few billion years. Let it be a lesson to the rest of us not to get ourselves into that situation, 'cause we're not gonna like it much if we do.
No nation is morally obligated to let itself slide into a Malthusian catastrophe. If your "morality" says otherwise, well that's very nice, but you shouldn't expect the rest of us to starve just to spare your tender feelings.
China doesn't have a habeus corpus or the right to a trial by peers.
Heh. I just spent most of 1997 listening to morons like you shrieking and wailing and stamping your little feet about how Clinton deserved no such rights at all except for a trial by his peers -- and the selfsame morons threw a screaming tantrum when that jury of his peers acquitted him. Tough shit, dumbass. You guys circumvented the law and abused justice to an amazing degree, but you blew it on the home stretch. You think I feel any sympathy?
Spare me the bullshit. People like you think that the rights guaranteed in the Constitution to all citizens can and should be suspended arbitrarily whenever you find it politically expedient.
Here's a little reality check:
Duh.
I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research. I'm sure they had help in doing so (like everyone else has had) and that they will use it mainly for peaceful purposes (like everyone else, although I head that the US have a lot of .. oh well).
(this is not flamebait, this is well needed insightfulness ... It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?)
it's in my head
:)
We Canadians are not hitchhikers... Canada and the US are together in matters of space. We contribute a lot and help one another out. You have underestimated our contribution to the space program with the US. Our Scientists and technology are used, if anything we are both (Canada and the US) are at the steering wheel.
. . . in one of our (USA!) ships. I guess that's even worse than them Canadian KANOOK apes jumping and whooping around over the border up there. They're nothing more than a bunch of Frenchies too, if you ask me. Nice guys maybe but not too bright.
Did you know they don't even have a written language in Canada or France? It's true, they're so stupid -- I guess they've seen our newspapers, and they try to make newspapers of their own, but since they can't write and they can't hardly even talk, they just make a bunch of random letters together! I'm not kidding! They really do, I've seen it. So all these poor stupid Canadians walk around with these fake newspapers -- pretending to read them! I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it myself, but they really do pretend like they're reading! They probably don't even know what reading is, but you know how they are, "Monkey see, monkey do." They're like the Chinese -- you go to Chinatown, they do the same damn thing, but they're so stupid, God, you won't even believe this, but they're even dumber than the Canadians -- they don't even know how to make real letters! They just make a bunch of little scratch marks in a square, and they line up a bunch of those and they stare at it for all the world like they think they're really reading something! It's the funniest damn thing you ever saw in your life.
You know, I keep an open mind and I'm not a bad guy, but I just have to get down on my knees now and then and thank God I was born in the good old USA (woo-hooo!) where I got a decent education. It must suck being a dumb foreigner not even being able to read. I knew a Chinese guy in college, he was in my TV Appreciation class but he quit showing up after a couple days, and he could barely even talk at all! He was nice, but man was he dumb! He said he it was a mistake in his schedule that he was in that class, I guess he had to go back and take the basic classes first before they'd let him be in there for the advanced stuff that Americans can understand easy cause we've got all the advantages. He said something about taking, uh, can't remember it . . . "fiz", "phys", something like that, OH yeah, I know: I can't spell it too good but it sounded just like "Phys-X", I guess is was some kinda chink Phys-Ed or something. I didn't see him in any classes after that, I guess he didn't make it. I kinda feel sorry for him, but you know I had a real tough schedule -- I had arithmetic and reading in the same semester! It's just the survival of the fittest. If all he could hack was that "Phys-X" and couldn't even pass a football I guess he just don't belong in college.
. . . and fell out of the damn launch vehicle, bellowing obscenely about Authentic Australian Culture and the miseries of Crete all the way down . . .
Fucking cannibalistic bastards . . . You think you can go around drinking human blood out of bisected coconut shells forever, but soon enough THE DAY OF RECKONING WILL ARRIVE and you won't be so happy then, believe me.
Definitions follow practice.
In Marxist theory, communism is that social stage which follows socialism. In practice, it makes sense to identify as communist those countries whose governments are lead by a Communist party built on a Leninist model, such as China, Vietnam, Cuba, and the old USSR, even though in the language of their own political theory they could only implement socialism. We use the world 'socialism' to describe more democratic political traditions (except in the US, where it is an epithet analogous to "poopyhead.")
It's a fact of history that most Communist regimes came into power due to either 1. a communist revolution, or 2. invasion by a country that had a Communist revolution. (One interesting exception was the election of Salvador Allende in Chile - and we saw happened to *that.*) Marxist theory suggests that revolution is a requisite for historical change. (There is some room for play here, since I guess you could argue that the change from capitalist to socialist means of production is itself the revolution, but the traditional model has been the up-against-the-wall-mofo style revolution.)
The question of the "legality" of these things is a bit silly. It does make sense to talk of a peaceful or violent change of property models. However, most real property and natural resources were at one point taken from someone else violently. Laws are created by political forces; when the Communists took power, they created laws that legitimize their economic behavior, just as capitalist countries do (i.e., intellectual property law, patent law.)
(duck!)
:)
I went to China just this summer. I know they are hardcore coke, although people there seem to like sprite (also a coke product) more than coca cola classic. I have nothing against the people. All the ones I encountered were quite friendly. What I find really depressing though is that when you walk around and people pester you trying to get you to buy the most cheap stuff. It's really sad to see the state their country is in. The point is, their government doesn't really like us at all. To completely ignore this fact would be severly ignorant, neive, or idealistic. You do know that the people of China really don't have much control over the ogvernment right? It really doesn't matter what they think. We need to recgonize this fact when we are exchanging ideas that could possibly be used against us.
I know life in China isn't 1984-ish, I never stated that, but that doesn't take away the fact that they are a threat.
"In a typical middle-class family, everyone from grandparents to kids know
more about stocks than most people in this country do. "
^-- think really hard why
"Go talk to some people who actually come from China. China does not "pose a threat
to our existence". I can't believe how effective the propagandizing media has been in
affecting intelligent Slashdotters. "
^-- As I said before, the people don't have control over the government, do they?
I do think that human space flight is a good thing and I am pleased to hear that China is seriously working towards the ability to put humans in space.
However, I do to soom degree think what we are seeing at this point in the press is a little over blown, all that has happened so far is a test (granted a big test, but still a test). A the saying goes the proof is in the pudding. When China sends someone into orbit and brings him/her back alive THAT will be news. In the mean time, yawn.
Oh, and one other point, I do hope that China's efforts will encourage Tiawan, Japan and some of the other nations that China does not see eye-to-eye with to look at a human space capability. That can only help make space flight cheaper (and more widely available to all :-) .
We don't know for a fact where the chineese got this technology. It's quite possible that they developed it themselves. In the past few years, they have shown great desire to catch up in the technological world. They've been working on programs to use the internet, stealing secret technologies from us, and while we sit here making jokes about them and the bum in the whitehouse our own space agency if working on a plan to send our children's names to Mars(http://spacekids.hq.nasa.gov/2001/). How cute!
:-)
Why did we win the Gulf War? We were so far advanced from the Iraquis that they didn't stand a chance. That was when we realized we have to stay ahead(or at least some of us did). I would say that we should keep this advantage. Hopefully now that we have a little competition, our own ingenuity will kick in and start cranking out some cool new stuff.
Anyway, back to China...They're becomming a bigger threat to us now that they can send manned missions into space (don't ask me how, that just sounded good). We need to stop lolly-gagging around in the China-policy area, and stop ingoring everything they do against us and create a policy to keep them in check. My two cents
... when you don't have the industrial-financial base to support it. It takes a heck of capital, both physical (plants, machinery, materials) and human (know-how, skills, training) to turn the ideas (stolen or otherwise) into real actual working machines. The US had to go nearly $6 trillion into debt to fund the Cold War (accumulation of deficits from Korean, Vietnam and various anti-communist insurgencies) and even then it was a rather close thing that they didn't go bankrupt before Russia did. And selling off Mickey Mouse hats and movies to the rest of the world is not going to pay this off either.
:-)
If you look at China (how many people here have actually visited that place?) you'd still find mud houses (strangely enough sitting next to a modern satellite equiped apartment block) in central Beijing. Their energy needs are still powered by high suphur content coal (one reason why interior cities are so polluted). And too many of their really good technical people leave and/or are snatched up by Western firms. Despite the war-mongering vote chasing by Bush, China is still pretty much an agarian society with much agriculture still being doing by hand. People forget that the US war machine is funded by taxes (40% of GDP?) from realatively high incomes (by world standards) that goes to pay for all those nicy shiny missiles (which have to be replaced after shooting up the reminants of Serbian infrastructure) and associated pork-barrelling. In fact some people would claim that the US economy is still on a war footing.
It is only now that resources are being released back into the civilian sector that you see such advances in communications (CDMA was originally a military application) and software. China's level of technical skill is comparatively poor and while they may be a world power by 2050, at the moment it is not exactly in a state to wave any sticks. IMHO, the US has more worries about trying to keep moral high and designing attractive careers for its own military personnel than worrying about any other army on the earth which they could beat hansomely (given enough warning) except the Isrealiis who have a (justifiably) paranoid and professional army. In other words, if you're Chinese and have a hankering for violence, the best idea is to give up now, emigrate to the US and learn how to play Quake.
LL
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
The ones that are back in stumblebum status are the ones that have made a radical shift to a free market/democratic society. China may be using a free market model for many things, but it is still deeply socialist, much more so than any European country.
Personally, I agree that Allende's regime would probably have been an economic disaster for a number of reasons if he had implemented the policies he had initially proposed, but let's be honest - he didn't fall, he was pushed, before he had any real chance to do much of *anything,* by Pinochet and the CIA.
I'm not an apologist for the the 20th century communist state, by any means, but they myths currently being propagated about the failures of socialism overlook these basic facts:
1. American success is primarly a product of World War Two, not of the inherent value of the capitalist system. George S. Kennan described the situation best - at the end of WW2, the US directly controlled about half of the world's wealth, and the role of US geopolitics was to maintain that precarious imbalance.
2. Given that, the socialist economies of the eastern bloc performed amazing things in light of the ongoing hostility of the US. 3rd world countries that aligned themselves more closely with the US did not do as well, since, sadly, it was their lot to preserve the imbalance mentioned by Kennan, by providing cheap labor and natural resources. The disasters of the socialist economies has more to do with centralization and autocracy than anything else - viz. the disastrous agricultural projects of the 70's in the USSR, largely the result of fantasies of Moscow apparatchiks.
3. The liberalized economies of Latin America are only serving a small fraction of the economy. A recent article in Latin Trade described how the Latin middle class, which American free market boosters had predicted would mushroom over the bast 10+ years of free-market policies, has been in crisis and dwindling, with the wealth of the upper classes expanding (and often moved offshore) and the poor remaining solidly poor. The victory of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the renewed vigor of Latin leftists parties in the last couple years, now with growing middle class support (which is always fortunate, since it keeps these parties sensible, the governments democratic, and the economies mixed,) is a result of the dawning realization that the majority of Latin Americans are simply not meant to benefit from the implementation of free market policies.
The rockets are old yes. So are ours. The Atlas is based on the United States first ICBM, designed in the 1950's. The Delta is based on the Thor IRBM, also designed in the 1950's.
The guidance systems on the Long March are of recent design, based on technology from Loral Corporation, which donated millions of dollars to the Clinton reelection campaign. As a result of this contribution, Clinton moved approval of technology transfers from the Department of State to the Department of Commerce. Loral got to improve the Chinese rockets in return for cut-rate satellite launches.
I guess the final part of this space mystery is the fact that Senator John Glenn blocked, stalled, and fillibustered the capaign finance investigation in return for a flight on the space shuttle. Instead they should have sent Glenn up in this Chinese capsule.
1998 United States GDP: $8.511 trillion
1998 U.S. DOD budget: Less than $300 billion
Percent of GDP: LESS THAN 4% (3.5%)
Einstein did NOT develop the Atom bomb. You might say he sparked it, and layed __some_ of the fundamental groundwork. Though the development of the Atom bomb was probably inevitable, the Manhattan project was something special. The source of the intellect (e.g., Jewish Germans during WWII) is of little relevance; it is the forces that fostered the development that sets us apart.
I'm not convinced that societies/government, such as China and the USSR, are capable of such fundamental leaps in the scale of the manhattan project. In fact, The USSR did, after all, feel the need to steal our technology. Very little technological advancement came out of the USSR in its prime. The same can be said for China of yesterday. However, I believe China is making fundamental changes towards a more free and open society and towards capitalism, as they approach this, they will become the next superpower.
I'm not sure what all the ruckus is about.
China launched a capsule that might carry people into space. Only 38 years after the Soviets and Americans did it.
Lets not forget that China was even more ravaged by WW2 and the Revolution than the Soviet Union was by the Nazis.
Also lets not forget that the technology exchanges between the US and Chinese started with President Bush, although more was exchanged during the Clinton administration, actually it's all because of that stupid/bankrupt Iridium phone system.
I find it unlikely that China will have the resources to build Star Wars-style weaponry, even on a limited scale. Regan pretty much bankrupted the States trying, and still never got so much as an orbital abm laser. The real concern is American military types (including the military industial corps) who will overinflate the threat of such weaponry to get themselves a new cold war.
Intolerant people should be shot.
Wonderful. Next we'll have huge banners of Maoix (If you don't install our distro, you'll never see your family again!) floating over the US. Maybe *that's* what they were talking about when they said they were going to be involved in cyberwarfare...
--
Its really disturbing to see that you Americans think that China is *always* up to no good. Its so hypocritical that a nation that uses its power to its own benefit (and no one elses) to say that China is now doing something wrong by putting something in space.
I live in Hong Kong, and sometimes you people amaze me by how narrow-minded you are.
You guys need to wake up from the American dream and face the reality of the real world.
Go ahead, moderate me down, but you all know its true.
Some corrections to be made... One, Reagan saves the country a lot of money by preventing us from having to maintain the cold war for another 10 or 20 years. This is not an opinion, it comes from recent statements made by former senior russian officials. All of them credit Reagan with the end to the cold war. Had Reagan not acted as he did we'd still be spending inordinate amounts of money on defense and related programs. Two, The threat IS the weaponry, not the military types. You're right in thinking that this may develop into another Cold War. I hope that is as far as it goes. All china needs to do to put a nuke on your doorstep is swap payloads. Manned space flight and ICBMs are built on the same platform. This is a huge threat, regardless of how much the military types stand to gain.
Yeah, let's all jump on the bandwagon and bash China!!!!!!!!!!!
Politics aside, why isn't every body celebrating the fact that humans are now one more step to being universally smarter, stronger and better?
Stolen technology? The reason science and technology has even developed to this stage is BECAUSE knowledge is shared. Rejoice to the fact that what should have happened happened.
Now that comment aside, I personally believe that its very hard to get correct news in the United States. Soon after Chinese ambasey bombing(be it intenional or not.) "news" surfaced that Taiwanese scienteist stole secret information for PRC. The week that Unite States refused to sign the nulcear test ban treaty, it was "discovered" that an boeing leaks information to China that can help it to deploy neuclear weapon. I've seen at least 3 reports of Chinese satelite launch crash in the US news. But NEVER ONCE a report of sucess. Granted, sucess happen so often that its not even news worthy, but for those that is still mostly disconnected with China, you think that Chinese steals BECAUSE you don't know what lead up to this sudden sucess. If I didn't know how about the centuries humans spent learning and experimenting, I'd think that modern science was left by UFO's or something.
In any case, this is of course not to say that China couldn't have done some thing underhandedly. Which country doesn't? The truth is survival first, you do what you have to. No one has THE right to survival--it, unfortunately is, just every one for him self. (You just don't hear about some country's)
Last comment, as many have pointed out. United States citizens should not be so happy that US is so far ahead of the rest of the world. It should be thankful for all the telents they provided US with. There are a LOT of Chinese people working in American research labs and indistries to make it better. Don't hurt them too much.
in this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_ 480000/480710.stm ) article just a month ago, the
BBC (which is usually very accurate) said,
"China's real intentions are confused with speculation by
scientists who can be misunderstood by both China's
internal press and the western media. Most observers with
a realistic understanding of China's technical capabilities
do not expect it to put a man into orbit until around 2005."
Intriguing. They embrace Linux as their official OS, and shortly after, they are able to enter space.
More Kubrick coming true.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The A-bomb was developed back when the USA still let in poor people. There were many non-US-citizens who worked on it even so.
Now will you please decide whether you want a War with us Europeans, or with the Chinese? We'd like to know because the bomb shelters are getting a bit leaky after 50 years.
China has a *huge* cash surplus. Look at their balance of trade. They are not stupid, just unorganized and somewhat oppressed.
An example of this sentiment is present in the results of the Space Generation Forum, a meeting of 200+ young aerospace professionals from around the world.
The engineers and professionals that built Apollo and all the technology from that era, are now retiring. Combined with the Budget cuts from governments lowering infrastructure commitments, the average age of the Aerospace profession is dropping (now about 30, with many 25-30).
Within this age group, a group that matured with the Internet explosion, international cooperation is a general assumption to the success of humankind. Witness the establishment of the International Space University in the past 10 years.
It is a shame that the media and politicians are emphasizing the conflict between our countries. When you attend a professional conference about advances in Space Technology, the Chinese participation is just as interesting and inspiring as the latest mission from JPL. This work is from the sweat off the back of young professionals, and I'll bet that a fair few of them read slashdot too.
So, please remember that those who build this are the same as us. They have the same dreams of a united humanity pushing the frontiers of space. I'm not going to comment about politicians or media, because I don't understand them.
One final thing... I'm hoping that the Chinese will have enough success with their manned space activity that they will dock with MIR, and claim squatters rights. I mean, if they want to maintain it ... why not. It's currently scrap.
Oh, and where do I send my resume. :-)
actually, china was included in the above-ground test ban treaty signed by the US and USSR so many years ago. detonations of nuclear devices in space by china are therefore a violation of this treaty.
>And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press that actually isn't true. believe it or not, the chinese actually invented the first printing press, too. europeans are responsible for movable type, not the printing press itself. and, johannes gutenberg, who is generally thought to have invented moveable type, didn't. he merely invented a new alloy used in movable type blocks. it's actually this kind of egoistic attitude not based on fact that causes a lot of countries to think of the US as a nation of belligerent hegemonists: "we made everything." so untrue.
I think you also overestimate the ability of the US to go it alone. In many fields, the majority of scientists and engineers in the US are foreign born. They come here because the US government lets them, because some places in the US are nice to live, because a lot of their colleagues came here before, because the standard of living is pretty good for them, and because the US government still has some of the most generous government funding for research and development in the world.
Furthermore, the US space program is based on a vigorous exchange of ideas with other countries, often even joint projects. The little bit of information the Chinese may have wrested from some US contractors probably pales in comparison. The only difference is that the US has branded that exchange of ideas "espionage" in the case of China, while it is completely acceptable when it happens, say, between a French contractor and a US space company.
Restrictions on what information can be shared with China may well make sense from a military point of view. But underestimating the Chinese or overestimating the US are both dangerous mistakes and will likely lead to poor policy decisions in the US in the future.
Now that that is out of the way.. I think this is excellent news because it will mean more funding for our space program! Our irrational paranoia does have it's advantages! Do you think we would have ever gone to the moon if it wasn't for Russia?
Although I speak Cantonese as my sixth language (it's now replaced French as the second most widely spoken language in Canada just this year), I've chosen not to learn Mandarin until an elected Chinese government puts up a plaque in Tien An Mun Square for all the heros of personal freedom who were murdered by their own government in 1989. Alas, by that argument I shouldn't be speaking English until there's a similar plaque at Kent State. However, even though I'm hardly a fan of the People's Republic of China, I'm glad that a third presence in space will keep us all on our toes and not let us keep thinking that we'll get around to the future at our own convenience. It's time to deal with space as our next necessary place to expand into. This launch may act as a goose to get us flying beyond near Earth orbit again. The resources of the asteroids will eliminate the need for a lot of large scale mining, letting us concentrate on, say, putting a bigger swimming pool in the Galapagos Hilton, for example. Well, it would give us a lot more choices. I'm sick of endless CGI-intensive movies and TV about space when what we really need is to get enough people permanently off Earth so that nothing can ever kill all of us. As that soft-spoken shy technophobe (sarcasm mode:ON) Jerry Pournelle likes to say, "the dinosaurs are extinct because they didn't have a space program". End of rant.
t's refers to his perverted view of himself above the good of the country and the laws we all live by.
Heh. Of course, those laws don't apply to Ken Starr . . . Heh heh. No, Starr's felonies were justified, you see . . . because he was trying to get rid of somebody whose policies he didn't approve of! So that makes it okay. The Starr inquisition was one of the must obscene abuses of power in the history of this nation. Forget the effect on Clinton and his family, I realize that you believe (in contradistinction to the tenets of the Law you claim to revere) that the accused are always guilty and therefore have no rights. No, I'm just considering all the hundreds of innocent people (many of them were even Republicans, and so were by definition incapable of wrongdoing) in Arkansas and elsewhere who got drawn into the inquisitional meatgrinder and had to waste their substance on needless legal fees. Hey, what the hell -- you can't have Justice without a few innocent victims, eh? Then you've got Starr's weird penchant for picking habitual felons for witnesses (odd coincidence, that
You're right, it was "the policy": The whole seven-year Inquisition/lynch mob thing (which turned up no persuasive evidence of anything other than adultery, which is disgusting blah blah blah but hardly a "high crime or misdemeanor") was about the fact that the public elected and then re-elected somebody who committed the treasonous crime of not being a Republican. So of course he had to be gotten rid of! The problem is that, contrary to popular belief among Republicans, it is not a crime to disagree with them. If you can find a single law on the books anywhere in this country, be it federal, state or local, which declares that it is a crime for an elected official to be a member of the Democratic party, I'd just love to hear about it. Really, I would.
You morons made us the laughingstock of the entire world, and paralyzed the entire government for a year over one of your moronic little hissy-fits. Congratulations. You must be proud of yourselves.
The article was written by the BBC, stop with this anti-US crap that has become so popular these days.
Excuse me, I am sure that china is not the third.. possibly they rank 4-5, lets see.... there is the Europeans space agency, the Canadian space agancy, Russia, and NASA. Lets see.... of those 4 i am sure that at least 3 of those have sent people into space. oi....
I, Bleric Blayblahblah, hereby speak for the Entire Open Source (NOT FREE SOFTWARE GODDAMMIT) Community in condemming this brutal and inhuman act of socialist technological advancement, in all its generalities and all its particulars. We (every damn one of us, and if you don't agree you're an immature Slashdot twerp and an asshole -- and a flamer, too!) will not tolerate such actions by the PRC and, well, golly, it just makes me mad!
Therefore, we have agreed (whether you know it or not) to refuse to participate in any way in the Chinese space program, neither as pilots nor as passengers, as long as we shall live, because I haven't gotten my name in the paper this week.
Hi, Mom!
In Congrefs Assembled, Bleric Blayblahblah, November 21 1999.
A manned module and an ICBM is it's payload.
Not to be too much of a stickler for detail, but an ICBM (Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile) isn't a payload so much as a delivery system. Nowadays, the payload of an ICBM is usually a group of warheads ("Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles" [MIRV] for the military acronym aficionados [MAA] out there). Obviously this doesn't affect your point at all. I'm just feeling pedantic this morning.
Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
I doubt that whatever perceived deterrent capacity we have is likely to be any less effective against China than it was against them Rooskies.
Anyhow, putting something in orbit is tougher than delivering a warhead. Didn't we and them Rooskies both have ICBM's before orbital stuff? Even if not -- and I'm probably wrong -- we and they and everybody have always had bombers, submarines, and whatnot. The Chinese have most likely been able to put little bundles of nuclear joy on people's doorsteps for decades now. Capability does not necessitate use, or at least it hasn't so far. We're still the only nation that ever did use nukes, but it's been more than fifty years since then and we haven't done it again, and nobody else ever bothered at all. Nobody really needs a world-encircling Doomsday Shroud, y'know? When you strip away the paranoid nationalist rhetoric and the Pharaonic/Reaganomic urge to overspend fantastically on redundant and/or useless weapons, the deterrence thing is eminently sensible.
I do, however, have a few words in favor of your concerns: After decades of Cold War paranoia, many Americans had become hardened paranoia addicts, and since the Soviet Union crapped out they've had to seek their fix elsewhere, mostly by developing paranoid systems of belief about the federal government. It might be a refreshing change of pace for them and for the rest of us if they were to devote themselves to fearing China for a while. "A change is as good as a rest", as Brendan Behan used to say. On the other hand, it might be even nicer if they kicked the habit entirely.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I apologize for being aggresive sir, but your post is so entirely ingorant of plainly obvious twentieth century history, that the only thing that is more galling is that you can find moderators equally as ignorant as yourself, who marked you up.
The tragedies of the Ukrainian famine and China's "Great Leap Forward" are indicative of the ghoulish tactics employed by the totalitarian regimes in both countries in order to create "progress".
Do a little research into either of these events (which claimed upwards of 50 million lives) before you give high praise to these dictatorial regimes.
None of the coverage I have read up to this point has picked up on the real signifigance of this story. A manned module and an ICBM is it's payload.
Yesterday, China put the world on notice that it can now strike anywhere in the world within half an hour.
All the other possibilities for China are minor side effects of this ability. Weapons in space, trips to Mars, etc. are not the focus of developing rocket technology.
Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
. . . therefore, the acts of socialists must, without exception, be evil: Evil motives and methods must necessarily produce evil results.
Yes, but do we know that socialism is evil to begin with? That's easy! Everything that socialism produces is, without exception, evil (I proved that conclusively in the previous paragraph), therefore socialism itself must be evil!
It's all so simple when you apply a little logic to the problem.
http://solar.rtd.utk.edu/~mwa de/articles/chidoors.htm
Cheers,
-j.
If the Americans are known as Astronauts, and the Russians the Cosmonauts, what will we call the Chinese?
The critical test is not how many Americans, Mexicans or Canadians won the Nobel Prize since WWII, but rather how many of those winners received their primary and secondary educations in the countries in which they were citizens as of the time they did the work that won them the prize. On that basis, US primary and secondary education is not "up to snuff" in terms of results. As a Canadian, I think the US should spend more money on the Head Start program and be willing to help all their kids live to grow up. Making ketchup a vegetable, or not spending money on proper teachers' salaries are not useful approaches here. BTW, I'm not a teacher, but I'm very grateful for the ones I had growing up in Canada. Remember that Einstein wasn't exactly the world's greatest student. The point is, we can't expect to be able to pick out only the smart ones early and be able to afford to shuffle off the rest: this is the problem with modern British "A" level and "O" level exams. The Americans aren't any *more* clueless than anyone else on this - just clueless in their own unique fashion. But because the US has the budget publicly and privately, of course many of the top-line people from elsewhere (including Canada) will move to the US to follow the opportunity. I sure hope someone doesn't point to Linus and Tove and suggest they've somehow "sold out" their Finnish roots.
The fact that the Chinese government does n evil things does not conclusively prove that everything else they do must also be evil.
The US government does evil things too; remember Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc? The internment during WWII of native-born US citizens with Japanese grandparents? Regardless of which side of the political fence you're on, you can no doubt whip up a long list. But does that prove that the US is inherently and invariably evil? No, it proves that it has done evil things, as specified in your list and mine. The fact that the PRC has a longer list just isn't conclusive. You can share your emotions on the subject and emit rhetoric all you like, but logic is logic and a non sequitur is a non sequitur.
The point is, we didn't want to share the knowledge with a facist and tyranical government such as China. You do realize they do pose a threat to our existance right? We do share the information with more friendly countries, just nto with countries that are bent with killing the 'evil capitalists'.
I also work with a lot of foreign nationals in my job here in the US. Most of the ones I know, especially those from places like the UK or India, have not come to the USA because "we have the least repressive gov't" but because of MONEY MONEY MONEY. It's easier to make more of it here. UK and India both have relatively free governments, and from their point of view, the USA is often more restrictive than their home countries due to immigration and tax regulations.
The 'freedom' aspect has been a bit overemphasized (propogandized?) throught the story of immigration to America. For most people throughout history, America has been a place to create wealth. End of story. Of course, it often happens that a free environment is the most conducive to producing wealth, but that is purely a lucky side effect.
Hi! if you would read some newspapers, you would see that some of the "violation rights" in China, came from foreigns company, that uses poor China workers so bad that they are slaving them to the farm. This is a real issue now. I agree China violates many human rights, but please see also what we do.
I agree with everything except your choice of the modifier "somewhat" in relation to oppressed. The government of the PRC executes criminals by HLA compatability typing in order to sell fresh organs on demand for foreign cash. That's not "somewhat" oppressed, O Fellow Anonymous Coward.
This is a crock. The American economy has undergone significant cyclic behavior since workd war II, including two significant recessions, an energy crisis, and shifting monetary policies. The strongest American companies right now are part of an industry that didn't even exist in ANY form at the end of the second world war.
Just admit it - economic and political freedom are closely tied to industrial innovation. My counterexample is Hong Kong - perhaps economically, the most "free" country in the world, and it has a sustained miracle far far far beyond anything Russia or mainlaind China have accomplished.
2. Given that, the socialist economies of the eastern bloc performed amazing things in light of the ongoing hostility of the US.
Yes, when you have forced labor that you can abuse in any way you see fit, you can accomplish some incredible things. See China's "Great Leap Forward", the single greatest human tragedy in history for more information.
I'm seriously dismayed that people still place faith in dictatorial regimes even after everything we've learned this century. Over 150 million people in this century have dies to teach us one basic lesson:
Communism and Fascism are ultimately totalitarian regimes, which must limit political power in order to function. Limits on political power inherently limit economic power. Limits on economic power create poverty.
"The Soviet Union managed to develop a space program only a decade after having been completely mauled by the second world war ..."
Actually, World War II provided the external stimulous that forced the Soviet industrial revolution. That provided the "means of production" (to use a communist term) to manufacture large, complex machines like balistic missiles. The USSR also got a fair share of German scientists to help, just like the U.S. did.
So the Soviet's success in the space race was a direct result of, not in spite of, WWII. As it was for the U.S. and Great Britan (yes, the Brits lauched a satellite in 1960s from Australia).
I'm pleased that you are pleased that "there is at least *one* challenger to US hegemony on the planet." I bet you shed a tear two weeks ago on the 10th anniversary of the liberation of eastern europe.
By the way, if you are interested in living under communism, I suggest you emmigrate to North Korea. I would recommend Cuba (the weather is nicer), but it has those nasty, evil, profiteering, tobacco companies (albeit government owned).
Communist governments killed more people in the 20th century than any other organization. If you support Stalinist governments, you support murder. Plain and simple. You supported shooting Germans in the back as they ran for freedom towards the wall. You were in the killing fields of Cambodia, cheering on the Kmer Rouge's slaughter. You were driving the tanks in Tianamen Sqare, crushing the innocents. You are an accomplice to genocide, the moral equivalent to current Neo-Nazis.
I'm sure the chinese are too dumb to understand science...haha mmmmmm, considering the 10,000 of chinese students in America studying science.
I bet china will have space over populated before 2000