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Ergonomic Office Equipment?
danimal asks: "As I sit at work typing away I wonder what ergonomic office equipment
slashdotters would reccomend? I have seen (and used) the Herman Miller Aeron and I find it very
acceptable. Then there is the issue of desks. At my office we only
have the "surface, two sides, and a brace" style, which are not very
friendly for typing all day. At one former job and other companies
I have seen Biomorph desks. Those seem to have all the right stuff: Adjustable work levels, tiltable keyboard surfaces, and enough space. What do my fellow geeks use and recommend to keep the pain away?" (More)
We seem to do a lot of topics on ergonomics, but after my bout with wrist pain and JWZ's writeup on the subject, I can't stress how important it is to keep up with these things. So I hope all of these articles we do on this subject will give you folks the tools you need to keep yourselves on the right track in the long term.
I have an Aeron at work - I've also longed for one for years, and was really happy to get one...
However, while they are fairly nice and look great, they have a few downsides:
* Can be a little chilly. If you find your office cold, the Aeron does not help at all as the air is free to seek heat from the rear! I don't mind this much, but a few other people that have them have mentioned that to me.
* Not very soft. Perhaps that helps you in some way, but I find myself yearning for a big overstuffed executive chair from time to time.
On the other hand, when you spill a drink on the seat it drains right through - perhaps, in the end, that is the chair's greatest strength.
The ironic part about having this chair at work is that even though everyone at work gets one of these if they want, they refuse to upgrade our 17" monitors to a larger size!!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ok, so we all like to bag M$ etc, but they do make some pretty good hardware. I swear by my MS keyboard elite and my good old MS Mouse, and i can notice the difference after typing away on my laptops keyboard for hours when i plug the M$ keyboard in at home. They might make shitty software, but their hardware is nice. I'm pondering getting a new intellimouse explorer.. anyone know anything about the ergonomics of them?
- CP
So, you've got an O:Line? That dont impress me much du du da du.
I have tried the Herman Miller chair, but it has the basic flaw of not being 'active'. If you spend most of your day behind a terminal an active chair is a must. Personally I am satisfied with a Stokke chair (Norwegian make). It forces you to keep your back straight. It is also nice when making phone calls or talking to someone: it rocks.
I've been using variants on the split ergonomic keyboard for years - at least since Apple came out with that funky keyboard with the hinge in the middle. It took me about 5 minutes to get used to.
Currently I'm using a Microsoft Natural Pro keyboard (not to be confused with the Natural Elite, which is way inferior). It has all these stupid Internet keys, but they're in the "penalty zone." The control key is in the wrong place, and it has a CAPS LOCK. Not ideal, and MS is still the evil empire, but it has the best feel & response of all the ergo keyboards I've tried.
With a table at correct typing height, a chair in the proper position with armrests, and good wrist support, life is bliss.
I'm all for trying more expensive solutions, but my $120 chair from Office Max and $60 keyboard are about all I need.
ALSO: for good ergonomics, avoid using the mouse when you can. Although mice are more comfortable than they used to be, the simple fact that they're usually a stretch away (or stretching your fingers for those teflon mouse surfaces in keyboards, or variants) means they're more strain than just keeping your hands on the keyboard.
Long live the command line!
And most importantly lots of space. Computer desks are always too small. You need lots of space to spead out books, papers, notes etc so you're not cramped up while working.
Sig is taking a break!
You can easily swap Ctrl and CapsLock by loading the right keytable. Even better, it exports itself to X so X has the right keymap also.
-russ
p.s. non-Linux operating systems may have a harder time doing this.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Well sorta... In my former life, I was a carpenter, cabinet maker, then an architect before I followed the force and got into networking. I simply designed and built my own desk. Split level, corner based, with a 4' wide keyboard/mouse surface. 6' and 8' side wings, split level, following the main workspace, so I could put more workstations there. I designed it for me, so it definitely wouldn't be optimal for anyone else. The chair, is a $300 Office Max fully adjustable, although I'm really interested in the Areon (my chair is like 3 years old and pretty worn out). I recently moved my office upstairs, leaving the desk stuff downstairs. I've now got a semi-circle desk I got from a local furniture store. Looks kinda like a starship control pod. Still fits my 20" monitor though.
Dive Gear
--- Think of it as evolution in action ---
The aeron chair's okay, but I think I also prefer the Stokke... Biomorph desks are a must, but I (personally) am happy with any decent sitting corner desk, in which there is an elevated section at the corner for my monitor.
15" LCD Active Matrix is nice, really nice. I've been getting a lot less headache since I got one. Long sessions coding are a LOT easier on the eyes. If you can't go LCD (they are really high, I understand this), get at least a quality 19" monitor. 21" is better (for most people), but I prefer my Iiyama 19". Perfect for CRT.
Mouse is always Logitech. The ergonomic Logitech MouseMan + (Wireless if possible) is what does it for me. On occasions, when I don't have access to the wireless, I take a fixed object on my desk (monitor works nice), pull the slack necessary for my mouse cord, and fix it to that with a paper clip bent around the cord. This eliminates the need to have to keep pulling cord up, as well as eliminating too much slack getting in my way. I've seen a mouse pad with a cord clip, but it was too small for me.
This takes me to mouse pads. I find an extremely oversized mouse pads takes a lot of the headache away from graphics work. I've got a "printer" pad that I picked up at CompUSA, which has the perfect mouse pad feel and texture, but is sized at about 14"x18".
That's my take. Any other suggestions?
Well, personally, I think the "Elite" is awful, but I will agree that Microsoft has put out some decent keyboards. The Natural v1 was awesome, with its built in wrist rest. Unfortunately, newer versions have a flip up *back*, which seems to me to be a recipe for RSI. The flip-up front on the v1 allowed you to straighten your wrists. Sure wish I could buy another v1.
Windows users may find Microsoft's mice to be comfortable and functional, but if you use X11, what you really want is a good, wide, three-button mouse. The Logitech WingMan, although marketed as a "gaming mouse", is a quite good X11 mouse, with three wide buttons for your copying-and-pasting pleasure. It is a traditional ball mouse, and works with PS/2 or USB.
The problem with standard keyboard layout is the inability to draw a single vertical line and split the keyboard. Unfortunately, ergonomic keyboards seem to favour the left. Anyone find an ergo keyboard with the letter b on the right?
---
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I was setting up a Linux for a friend who had one of these godforsaken things plus a trackball that looked like a giant rat. After several hours of 'getting used to' my error rate was simply attrocious. The plain old IBM 101 key (no penguin keys) is perfect for me in the qwerty format. Suggest anybody 'try before you buy'.
I cannot believe you would cowtow to such a company that would gouge your bank account for a desk. I'm sorry but their desks don't cost anywhere near $2000/ea to build. A hand crank shouldn't cost $200. I find these companies as distasteful as Microsoft themselves.
Has anybody tried this crazy controlled office workspace? Its got its own air circulation system, space enough for about four monitors, a built-in, badass looking chair, and it rotates. It's also got its own built-in electrical sockets.
It costs $5500. Looking at some of the desks out there today and how much they cost, I'm thinking it's not such a bad idea.
john
I think I appreciate ergo setups more than most people. My best friend has carpal tunnel, severely exacerbated by fibromyalgia. When she has a good day, she has a good day. When she has a bad day, her husband has to brush her teeth for her.
With that in mind, I was very enthused about a year ago when my employer put together a union/management team to begin changing the workplace and upgrading it to OSHA compliance as far as ergonomics. After lots of meetings, we put over 200 people in full ergo setups and learned a few things along the way. Here's a smattering:
1. Classes in using all these new toys were absolutely necessary. For example, every computer is now on a multi-adjustable corner metier table that makes perfect positioning a snap *after* you've been to class. People who tried to set them up before receiving formal instruction tended to wind up with weird and painful configurations.
2. When picking an adjustable table, make sure the keyboard surface is height- and tilt-adjustable completely separately from the CRT.
3. Those expensive gel-type wrist rests are *wonderful*! Everyone seems to love them.
4. When we bought supplies at a "trial" ratio (getting just a couple of units for every dozen people to try so that we could see who wanted things before committing money), we found that scarcity makes people want things. For example, experience has shown that only about 10 percent of users will actually use a separate foot rest. (Ours are nice ones by Rubbermaid.) Thus, we bought them on a ratio of one to five users and figured they'd get passed around till the people that actually needed them wound up with them. Ha! Not a chance! As soon as the workers saw that these things were going to be scarce, they all suddenly felt a need to latch onto one. The initial shipment went like loaves of bread off the back of a U.N. relief truck and the have-nots have been screaming for the things ever since. (Unfortunately, the money it will take to equip everybody isn't in the budget right now.) I know that when we finally get one for each person, most of them will wind up in a corner, gathering dust. But compliance with the Union agreement trumps all else and we'll have to find the money.
5. As for telephone headsets, I consider them a valuable ergo accessory. Unfortunately, we bungled their distribution the same way as the footrests.
6. Chairs were a huge problem. If you're putting new chairs in a large unionized shop, do what we did: Let the Union pick the chair. People are pretty picky about where they park their butts all day. We knew that whatever we chose would be hated by someone enough for them to file a grievance. By letting the Union do the choosing, management totally avoided the problem. "You don't like your chair? It hurts your back? Sure, you can file a grievance. Just figure out a way to file it against your own Union! Hahahahaha!!!"
7. As a Union member, I oversaw the chair selection. We narrowed the field to about 10 different chairs based on basic OSHA specs and the ability of vendors to meet those specs and get us samples. We then had every employee come into the sample display room in rotation, sit in every chair, and vote. The final selection was a high-backed fully adjustable chair with the name "SuperFurntiture" embossed on the back. I have no idea who actually made the thing, but just about everybody could live with them. They don't have too many adjustments and they don't have any detachable accessories, but everybody can get them into a configuration that's acceptable.
8. Another chair that was available for vote broke during the voting. You know that when a chair back snaps and dumps an employee on their butt right in front of everyone, nobody is going to vote for that one! However, this particular chair was "modular" according to the sales rep. Everything could unplug and be replaced. At first, this looked like a versatile option. We eventually realized, however, that what it really meant was having to buy, warehouse, and install a mind-boggling array of accessories that would make for serious administrative headaches. I was very glad this chair broke and I would counsel people to avoid any such chairs that seem to have been designed by guys who spent too much time playing with Transformers when they were kids.
9. The Aeron chair referenced in the lead-in was a very interesting case. People either loved or hated it. There was almost no in-between. The problem with it is that it's TOO adjustable. It uses a huge wind-up (watch-type? I don't know what to call it.) spring to set the basic firmness of the chair. Loosened up, it's suitable for a 70-pound waif. Tightened up, it's suitable for a 300-pound guy like me. Problems occur, though, when a large person sits down in a chair adjusted for a light person. The chair immediately tips completely back, causing people to catch themselves, bolt out of the chair, and declare it a menace. A large person who just plops down in one of these chairs that's adjusted for a small person may very well find themselves dumped on their back on the floor. This is definitely not a good thing and makes the chair unsuitable for an office where chairs are shared. However, I personally felt it was by far the most comfortable chair when adjusted properly. (That opinion was almost universally shared by people who let me adjust the chair to their weight *before* they sat down. First impressions mean a lot.) If I had to get an ergo chair for myself, this would be my choice.
Equipping a large office to OSHA-compliant levels was expensive and difficult, but our experience in the new office environment convinces us that it's well worth it. In fact, despite the cost, I'm now in the middle of re-equipping my workstation at home. Today the gel-type wrist rest, tomorrow the Aeron!
:-)
I was having neck and shoulder pain at work until I brought in a Kinesis Maxim adjustable split keyboard. (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/) Wonderful! I thought the problem was my desk until I felt what a difference this keyboard made.
The angle and tilt are adjustable for your comfort, and it has a detachable split wrist rest. It lacks the numeric keypad, so your mouse is in a better place (you can get a seperate numeric keypad if you like).
I use it with a Logitech TrackMan Marble trackball, the one with the thumb-operated ball. Mine is an older model with no wheel, which I prefer. It supports the hand in a natural way, and it stays close to my keyboard.
I purchased the Intellimouse Explorer a few weeks ago. So far, I would say this is the best thing I've ever gotten to assist with fps games. Anyways, the red glow it emits looks neat at night.
I discovered this chair while contracting for Microsoft -- they put all of their employees in it. Liked it so much that I bought one for home. If you work at MS -- even as a contract employee -- you're eligible to buy the Criterion for what MS pays for it. Email furnfac.
As a sysadmin I did some research and the biggest difference is made by simple things.
Get your chair high, so your forearm is level, put a wristrest on the keyboard (the M$ style ergo keyboards I find do not have a high enough rest area, which is a pity since they are excellent otherwise) the idea is that you type 'down' on the keyboard.
Then get the monitor top at eye-level, (a box full of old manuals works really well here, and can take thew weight). Finally get a really thin mousemat (again, to keep your wrist as level as possible) Just these simple things make a great difference.
I seriously reduced the number of users complaining of cramps and headaches by doing this, and was amused that a 'professional' audit conducted a year later found very little to improve.
EZ
-'Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to log in..'
"Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
The bottom line is that human bodies are different from each other. We don't just come in different shapes and sizes, we have different work patterns too. Let me give an example. While I don't normally work that way, there are days when I spend hours on my feet running between labs and hovering over a number of different keyboards as I gather information to track a bug. When I get back to my desk, there is nothing I want to do more than get the weight off my feet. Certainly, putting my feet up on my desk and my keyboard on my lap violates several rules for good posture that or ergo people taught us at work. And it is indispensible for 15 minutes or so.
Probably one of the contributing factors in my lack of carpal tunnel is the fact that I use five different keyboards regularly. I use them in different positions. I use a variety of software with a variety of different typing patterns. I fear if I were to trying to make all of the various work environments that I use ergonomically correct, and presumably much more similar to each other, that I might do damage because I would develop a similarly bad posture or pattern of use in each one.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Because of my rather unusual workstation setup, I need an articulated monitor arm. When I first developed the layout, I figured the arm would be easy to find.
Think again! I've scoured local and on-line office supply stores, and have found exactly two places that claim to sell them--Innovative Office Products, and TechRack. And both of those are geared more to large buyers and resellers than to small businesses and individuals. And the prices! Holy moley! I'd love it if someone could recommend another good place to find these things.
I'm looking for something that will hold a 19-inch monitor (about 80 pounds) and a keyboard, and that will work when turned 90 degrees on its mounting. All leads appreciated.
As for other ergonomics, I'd have to agree with the 3-button mouse recommendation; I lean toward Logitech. And a large monitor, and a Dvorak keyboard layout. If I could just get that blasted arm, my workstation would really start to shape up.
I'm sitting in one right now, and these things are awesome. The best thing about them is how you can adjust the tension of the backswing of the chair, so people who weigh more or less can sit back the same distance in their chair without straining their back. Plus, two of them makes for a nice napping spot if work gets a little boring. :)
We've got pretty basic desks, not cubicles, with large work areas (>2ft) in front of our monitors, so we can put books, paper, pens, keyboards, mice, etc out in front of us and not have to deal with shelves. Behind the work space, there is an adjustable shelf to put monitors on, which we have flush with the workspace so the monitors can be moved closer for some of my more myopic colleagues. The system works well.. no wrist pain so far, I think mostly due to the arm rests on the Aeron and the large area to rest my arms on.
//Phizzy
"Most European technology just isn't worth our stealing," -- Former CIA chief James Woolsey, referring to Echelon
Problem with all the ergo furniture (aside from chairs) I've seen is that they are oriented towards people who have one computer with only one monitor. For people like me who have two computers with 2 monitors each there is no ergo furniture that I've seen. Anyone got any practical pointers? (Pointer can't be get rid of any equipment. You don't know productivity until you've worked full time with multiple heads and computers.)
However, the desk I'm using right now has what I feel is a really nice keyboard tray. It's like you cut a slightly deeper and longer than keyboard size chunk out of the desk, and put it on rails on each side, which let you adjust up and down.
This way, you can have the keyboard at whatever you feel is the proper height, while having the desk at a fixed height... very nice.
Check out these pictures, if you want to get a better idea: side view (134K) and top view (148K).
Also notice that the monitor is propped up on some Scitex training manual thingies... desks that have a monitor stand can't possibly be sized correctly for all the possible monitors it could have.
Moo.
For those of you not too finicky about the feel of the keypresses (they're a bit clicky), I'd recommend the "Floating Arms" split keyboard (they attach to each arm of your chair), available here and here. I'll second the lackluster reviews of the Aeron -- it's a good general purpose, one-size-almost-fits-all chair, but if you want that last 30% of comfort and ergonomics, you'll have to shop around. I have a Neutral Posture chair at work (w/the floating arms keyboard) and a Hag Capisco at home (along with a standing workstation). It's hard to beat the Neutral Posture chairs for a sit-all-day kind of work chair (unfortunately, you'll have to find a place to try them -- one size does not fit all).
It sits on my lap, or I can plop it down on a blueprint when taking data off a print into CAD, or wherever it is comfortable. I use the Logitech "wireless desktop" which uses radio, not IR, so I don't have to worry about line-of-sight. It is ever so much easier on the wrists than an ordinary wire-bound keyboard sitting up on a desk. When your wrists get tired of having the keyboard here, move it over there. The only thing I don't like is the lack of a keypress "click." Go to a local Office Depot or CompUSA and check it out.
Alas, apparently you can't get the clean-looking original model like I've got any more; instead Logitech now offers one that looks like the original but defaced with ugly little warts all along the top, like the keyboards that come with new Compaq Presarios, HP Pavilions, and other PCs aimed at the home market. (If you use their driver, which I suppose works only under MS OSes, when you tap these warts they fire up your CD player, your Internet browser, and so on.)
It also comes with a wireless three-button-plus-scroll-wheel mouse. I'd prefer a wireless trackball but the mouse is OK. There's a nice blank spot in the upper right corner of the keyboard where a trackball would fit perfectly (hint, hint, Logitech).
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
A lot of time, you're working at someone else's desk in someone else's office. In my case, I have my home computer which is in heavy use by two different people and a cubicle which is covered in printouts.
A friend of mine, Dana wears Soft Flex Gloves. At about $25 a pair, it's a very cheap portable solution.
No Zen is good zen
Instead of a $2000 desk, you can attach a $150 keyboard arm to the desk. Have the mouse next to the keyboard so as not to have to reach for it.
The Split keyboards are only useful as long as they can be made to fit you. The MS keyboard did me more harm than good.
What also is important is taking breaks from the keyboard, stretching, positioning, and proper treatment.
RSI injured geek wins against Mattel, Mattel still retaliates!
Billsf: Try a trackball, especially one like my LogiTech Trackman Marble, which is thumb operated. It takes a little getting used to, but you leave your arm in a single position and move only your thumb - so your back doesn't get sore from moving your entire arm around. I can "mouse" for hours without getting sore, and my "workspace" is a folding party table and a somewhat adjustable cheap office chair. With a normal mouse, I'm feeling the telltale signs of strain within 45 minutes. It really works!
HTH,
This is an excellent book by Pete Egoscue. He is an anatomical physiologist specializing in remediating and preventing injuries.
The premise is that it's not the fancy (and very expensive) "ergonomic" equipment that makes the difference, it is how you sit, how you type, etc.
For example, I have a "regular" office chair, and my lower back was starting to bother me quite badly. I was getting set to shell out $$ for a fancy ergo chair when I was given this book by a friend. I implemented Egoscues suggestions, and my back pain is now gone, w/o spending big $$ for a fancy chair.
The book costs $10.95, an ergo chair will run $400+. I'd say give the book a shot, first.
Though it doesn't look as cool as some of the sci-fi chairs do. ;-)
Gordon.
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
So I went on a mission: to find the most confortable chair I could buy. I tried many chair, including the Herman Miller's.
I settled for the knee tilter high back Obus Forme.
The chair is a dream. You can even sleep on it and don't feel tired. It can be used as a rocking chair too
I liked so much that I got one more for my university office.
The main features of the chairs are:
We (my SO and I) paid US$200 each for 2 of these(we landed a good deal). The suggest price is around US$400 and US$500. If you shop for one, make sure you get the knee tilter because the chair is built with central tilting too.
I am thinking about bying one of those chair keyboards and then I'll truly feel like captain of the Enterprise.
Even a fairly low background noise gets irritating after a while. Remember the good old days when computers had neither power supply nor CPU fans?
I'll be trying the Lap Power Whisper System (Sorry, in Swedish only), it's supposed to generate under 24 dBA (quieter than your normal bedroom/living room). I just hope it will fit an ABIT BP6 mobo with 2 celerons!
Does anyone have experience with this case, or other good solutions for having a quiet computer system?
integrate an exercise-bike into the implementation of an office chair that doesn't swivel, so that one can sit use a computer while peddling away.
This might also help one who's working in a cold room (e.g. during cold weather) to keep warm.
If such a product is available, I would like to know about it!
There are a number of places where you can get information on what products are available, and how to set up your work area ergonomically. Talk to a chiropractor, physical therapist, or orthopedist. Some folks will even come to your office and give talks on how to set up your work area and tactics for avoiding repetitive stress injuries.
I have a Steelcase desk with a separate keyboard shelf, jell-filled keyboard and mouse carpal tunnel pads, and a chair with adjustable seat height, arm height and lumbar support. This setup works for me.
The key to avoiding repetitive stress injuries is knowing how these types of injuries occur. It doesn't matter how much ergonomic gear you have if you don't use it properly, or if you don't pay attention to your body.
I use my mouse with my left (non-dominant) hand, to reduce the strain on my right hand. Our company has a massage therapist come in once a week and give 15 minute massages. It helps me to realize what muscles in my hands/wrists/arms/shoulders are getting tweaked so I can take preventitive action early. There is a product called the Cat's Paw, which is neoprene with finger holes in it which I use to stretch/strengthen my wrist muscles. Other folks in my office use jell-filled stress balls or balls with a spinning weight inside. I take martial arts, and do a lot of hand/wrist/arm stretches.
Even with all of this I still experience occasional wrist pain. Recognizing it early and being able to take action has prevented it from ever becoming debilitating for me.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Am I really the only one who doesn't use a chair at all? I've got a king size mattress on the floor and lay down on it. It's impossible to get back pain that way and it supports my arms too. The end fits about 5 laptops next to each other; you can also put monitors on the floor next to the mattress. The problem of not enough desk space is gone, too; essentially the whole floor acts as a desk! The thing I like best is that I can get naked and wrap myself in a continental quilt for those late night hacking sessions. It rocks!
Any technology which is distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced.
I havent tried these products myself it but ive read many finnish
IT and Office magazines that Martela has a really good line of
office-equipment that are really economic. Check out their
website at www.martela.fi
--
yush
http://www.biomorph-desk.com/
gives
500 Server Error
The hard transfer limit for this user has been reached
Anybody mirror this puppy?
-eddy
The monitor refresh rate! I may be particularly sensitive, but any monitor with a vertical refresh rate of less than 72 hz makes my eyes burn after a few mintes. The area in which I work uses second-hand tables (like most churches have), cheap adjustable height chairs, and monitors that run 75-80 hz. I have no complaints -- especially since the work is interesting enough that I can stay focused!
I hate ergo stuff. I am currently using a brand new set of Logitech Deluxe 104 keyboard and Microsoft Wheel Mouse. MS makes some kick ass hardware and we can't deny that. Anyhow, that dumb Microsoft keyboard which is everything BUT Natural can just go somewhere else. The only thing that I'm looking forward to purchasing soon is one of those very cool Microsoft IntelliMouse Explorers. Now THAT is (ergonomic?) hardware I can really get into.
yeah
The best computer chair I've ever used, and the one I'm currently sitting on, is a hulking La-Z-Boy recliner. It's got a swivel base so I'm not locked in, and a "magic ottoman" so I can put my feet up. Space constraints would make it difficult for some to intall, I guess, but if you have the space, it's the most comfortable chair you'll ever compute from. Combined with a Weber Knapp Co. movable keyboard rack bolted to the underside of my desk, it's computing heaven.
Those old school IBM keyboards are the best. There not the most egronomic but they provide the best feedback and I've never felt any issues typing with it. Works well using MS Intellimouse Expolorer and good size monitor (ie 19"+).
WeirdCow
I have been Working with a mouse and the keyboard
for over 12 years now, and I've never had any
problems. There are a lot of companies out their
who would love to see you buy all the ergonomic
gadgets they can come up with.
But I really think you just shouldn't sit in the
same position for too long. Don't get me wrong
I think it's a good thing that we're thinking
about the problems and are taking actions.
But how far will this thing go? Are we going to
sit in a special seat where you can't even move
freely about? I really don't think that these
gadgets will bring the solution.
personally I train my arms and fingers with the
simplest of things I have lying around on my desk.
Like pencils or little balls etc.
as I've said 12 years and not one day of pain,
I'm not going to spend my money on those things.
They will not help me, if you think they will
be of any help to you I think you should get them.
Rob A.
The Answer is always simple.
I bought an IntelliMouse Explorer about six weeks ago. After trying to get used to it for three weeks, back it went. The sides taper towards a wider base. I found this meant I had to grip it too tightly to lift while repositioning.
I now use the IntelliMouse with IntelliEye, which has the more standard MS mouse shape. It's great; sliding friction is much lower than with a standard mouse.
Been using them for about 4 years now...they have never done that to me. Not a real one, that is.
Make _sure_ however you are looking at the _real_ Stokke chairs...there are a bunch of _really_ cheap knockoffs out there which are probably worse for you than falling and breaking your neck.
Looks design.
I have an ancient Balans at home, I picked up at a swap meet for $25 from someone who didn't know any better (they sell for around $300). I love it, and ended up getting a HAG for my office at work.
Everyone makes fun of it, but at least my back, neck and head don't ache. I took a class recently where we were stuck in cheapo classroom chairs for 8 hrs a day. After two days I was waking up with horrific migraines.
I've got the 'WingMan' style at work. I haven't found anything else besides my trusty Trackman Marble that I feel comfortable using all day. I believe that its larger than average size allows you to push the buttons with the bases of your fingers without having them drag on the pad, rather than pushing with your fingertips at an odd (and uncomfortable) angle that most mice can force a user into. These are also good for gaming, as evidenced by the mouse of choice of those who place at the top in the occasional interdepartmental Q3fests.
But seriously folks, the 'WedgeMouse' as it's known by the locals, is worth picking up if you don't believe in trackballs.Otherwise, the Trackman Marble that many posters seem to have been recommending wins.
I work in a company with 28,000 people. I have about 6 people in my group. The chair I have plain out sucks, and it hurts my back. I read an article which said I should bitch at my HR department and hint about health lawsuits and all. The article was basically saying that large companies rather buy you a $800+ chair then deal with the lawsuit. Now...here is the problem. What about the other people in my group? Dont you think they are gonna hate the new bitchy guy who got a $800+ chair? Is the company then gonna buy everyone on my floor a Aeron chair? Everyone in the company? Get real. If this damn company just maybe lowered their prices, and marketed to companies, giving BIG discounts on large purchases, we'd be OK.. Its amazing how people can bitch about Microsoft, but everyone is happy as a peach about all these ergo companies selling chairs and desks for $800-$5000....bunch of bullshit.
Wouldn't work for me cause I can't touch-type, and I imagine that the regular keyboard would be better for anything where you were using the mouse as much as the keys (maybe for a late xmas present I'll try to rig him up a foot controlled mouse... no, wouldn't work with the ergo-chair) but still pretty cool.
Will leave it up to him (he reads here) to decide if he wants to post the url and risk the /. effect or not.
Anyone here hacked your own hardware when they didn't sell something to your ergo standards?
...will work for Chick tracts...
Wouldn't work for me cause I can't touch-type, and I imagine that the regular keyboard would be better for anything where you were using the mouse as much as the keys (maybe for a late xmas present I'll try to rig him up a foot controlled mouse... no, wouldn't work with the ergo-chair) but still pretty cool.
Will leave it up to him (he reads here) to decide if he wants to post the url and risk the /. effect or not.
...will work for Chick tracts...
This is a great topic, one I've been meaning to post myself.
What I have been looking for specifically is a wrap-around sort of desk, like in Zero Effect or the Matrix, that would comfortably and spaciously hold 3 21" monitors and a large laptop. It looks like its possible to construct something pretty neat from anthro, but they dont seem to want to return my emails...
Does anyone out there have any experience or suggestions?
thanks,
chris
I just got one for christmas and its great... Wheel, wheelbutton, and two thumb buttons... also the glowing red this is cool to look at... Not sure if theres a driver for X, i use Win98...
Anonymous Hay goes in and I come out...
I'd suggest going for the ultimate ergonomic computing experience. http://www.lazboy.com/furniture/category/recline/i ndex.html When I first got serious about my computing habit many years ago, I replaced the uncomfortable computer wheelie-chair with a discarded recliner. All you need is a keyboard and mouse with long enough cords, and an adequately sized monitor.
The Whisper system I wrote about supposedly has some sort of special hard disk caddy to dampen the hard disk noise. I imagine that an absorbing material which prevents the vibrations from spreading to the chassis might do a lot of good.
Everyone in my department at work got one of the Aeron chairs. Me, the department lacky even managed to steal one a few months ago. When I first saw them I thought they were the coolest thing. After using one for quite awhile I'm not that impressed.
While I'm not going to knock the chairs that much, I'm still much happier with the $200 leather executive chair I got for home. At home I squish right in without a care in the world. At work I'm constantly fidgeting and trying to find a comfortable position. I'm very pleased to have the chair at work, it's much better than something like one of those cheap kindergarten plastic chairs but overall I prefer my nice leather executive chair at home.
As far as ergonomics go, I'm not the greatest person to ask. A few years ago I fractured my back and have a hard time sitting in a "ergonomic" postion. The only relief I feel is if I slack down in my chair. The doctors have told me it's not the best thing to do, but if I try to sit right I end up with an unbearable pain after a few hours. So my opinions on the ergonomicity (is that a word?) of the chair may not suit everyone.
Anyways, if your company can afford them, I think they're great chairs, but for me, I'd certainly prefer a nice leather executive chair. Better yet, one of those leather recliners with the massager's in them, add a refrigerator, a toilet, and an mp3 player. As long as it reclines enough for me to sleep, I won't even go home.
LiNT
Biomorph makes multi-monitor ergo desks.
Biomorph's Web Site
I'm a win-weenie myself, and it always seems that the powerful keyboard mappings are only possible under X.
When you hit one of those nontraditional keys, does it just send back a scancode like any other? Some laptops are now coming with stupid extra buttons too, do those work in the same way?
I'm using an IBM clickmonster myself. I finally ditched my old faithful Logitech C-7 series mouse for a $20 Logitech wheel mouse, which I absolutely adore. I want to replace my PgUp and PgDn keys with a wheel now. Maybe my up/down arrows too, with a different acceleration factor.
There's a thought: Is it possible to attach multiple pointing devices to a PC, and map one of them to keyboard functions (have it behave as arrow keys) while leaving the other one with control over the pointer? Then I'll get a foot-trackball..
I agree with the previously stated thoughts on split keyboards only working for a certain typing style. Is there such a thing as a split Dvorak?
Scroll bars suck. For such a common task, scrolling should have its own buttons. And leaving one hand on PgUp/PgDn, while I use the mouse for other things, is awkward and stupid.
A wheel is actually pretty natural for scrolling. With PgUp/PgDn, the distance you move is determined by the number of times you hit the key. I find that it's more natural to whiz the wheel a larger or smaller amount. (Altho for continuous scrolling, I wish there was something like key-repeat. Perhaps hold/toggle a button and use the wheel to adjust the velocity?)
Five buttons is just plain silly. I wouldn't mind if they'd move the middle button out from under the wheel (trying to click it, I always move the wheel too), but I'm just fine with 3 buttons.
I agree, the original Logitech square "pack of cigarettes" C-4 and C-7 mice were great. Durable as all hell, easily cleaned, good resolution.. If they'd made it possible for the user to replace the cord without breaking the warranty seal, I'd love 'em even more.
This story inspired me to search around the web, and google came up with "Back Be Nimble - Your one stop back shop." They seem to specialise in accessories for back pain, and have a good range of chairs.
My fave has gotta be the "Concorde - Fly high with latest ergonomic technology at the push of a button. Now with Relaxor/Pulsor Vibro-Tactile Massage!" Now all I need to do is remortgage my house!
Scraggles.
Computers are like air conditioners; they stop working if you open windows
http://www.poetictech.com/aura/aura.html
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
Weelll... Part of the reason ergonomists have a hard time recommending any particular products is because they'd really like folks to attend to their best advice: Don't sit in one position for more than two hours without getting up and moving around a little. So maybe the best ergonomic office equipment is a timer that launches a message telling you to get off your ass every now and then. Just a little movement helps a lot. I grabbed an old kitchen timer. My right elbow doesn't go to sleep any more.
>
Most important things that are often overlooked:
:o)
(i) A decent sized desk with enough room to have the keyboard and monitor straight in front of you *and* enough left over to have a standard letter sized sheet of paper in front of that. All too often I've had to work at a shallow desk where because of the depth of the monitor, and the desk being pushed up against a wall or another desk, I've had to have the monitor off to the side. And free space on either side too for your manuals and notepad etc.
(ii) A good keyboard. I don't like too much cleverness in keyboards. The classic KeyTronic KYB601 is my choice. Their new "ergonomic" KT2001 sucks rocks.
(iii) A good quality mouse. It should be the right size and shape to fit the hand in its resting position. I quite like the Microsoft Intellimouse myself. Even the old classic MS "Dove bar" mouse wasn't half bad. Watch out though, the OEM version isn't made to the same high quality as the proper retail version, and it shows.
(iv) A good quality high res monitor. If you need to have several windows open at a time you need 1600x1200 to avoid unnecessary mouse movement. At that resolution you need a 19inch diagonal or bigger. And the refresh rate has to be 75Hz or more, and small fonts should be clearly readable.
Oh yeah, and (v): A nearby vending machine with chocolate bars in it
If I've got all those things then just about any standard adjustable office chair will do. Wrist rests? Pah.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
An alternative I haven't seen mentioned is to use a "swiss ball"/"mediball" instead of a conventional chair.
Quick description. With a convention chair, your back muscles lock into place once your sit down. If you don't take your RSI breaks regularly, that means that your back muscles may be flexed in the same position for several hours, resulting in strain and pain. (yada, yada, yada.)
In contrast, using a mediball, which fundamentally is simply a large inflated ball, forces the back and legs to be continually making micro-adjustments to keep yourself erect. As a result, your muscles keep moving and don't lock up; resulting in less back pain and a substantially stronger and healthier back.
The downside is that it takes a few weeks to physically adjust; initially, your back muscles aren't strong enough to handle more than half-an-hour or so at a time. But you quickly adjust and now I can use my ball full time, resulting in what I feel has been a significant improvement to my personal health.
One other advantage: a mediball costs under $100; a nice saving versus a conventional ergo chair.
There's more propaganda about them at:
http://www.healthtrek.net/
Now, if I could just find a Linux driver for it...(sigh) There's as much chance of my being able to *write* a driver as there is of flying to the moon in my pickup truck.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
The Swiss ball idea is interesting, but it seems to me that one could achieve the same effect by taking a secretary's chair (swivel chair on casters, no arms) and removing the back; older chairs have adjustable-height backs that can be pulled entirely out of the chair seat. Not only might this be cheaper, it would look a little less odd to coworkers than sitting on an inflated spheroid might.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
I agree the mechanics of the chair are nice - however, one of the other options for chairs we had that a number of people chose was a chair that tilted much like the Aeron ( Tilts from the front instead of the centre) and had many of the same features (seperatly adjustable arms, tilts locks at any angle) but it has a normal cloth fabric, a little stuff but not uncomfortable, and a lot warmer!
Indeed, in the chair selection session I attended everyone chose this "other" chair (can't remmebr the name) as we did not have an Aeron at the time - now I find myself longing for that chair as well, but at the time I had seen them in other offices but not had the chance to try one for a while.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Last week I spent several hours trying out chairs at the Herman Miller and Steelcase showrooms. I was surprised to find that both the Miller Aeron Chair and the Steelcase Leap Chair (their Aeron-killer) had broken adjustment controls and were of cheap plastic construction (Aeron: barely adequate; Leap: hopelessly flimsy). In fact, the Steelcase dealer wouldn't even show me the Leap chair until he first demonstrated the older Criterion, so I wouldn't get a bad first impression.
There is a useful book, Compute In Comfort, by Paul Linden, a phys. ed. Ph.D. and martial artist who has intensively studied movement and posture. His main rap is that you can greatly reduce stress by becoming aware of how your body feels, and adjusting your position so that your skeleton carries the weight directly (good posture), instead of having weight hanging off-axis, held by constant muscle tension (bad posture). This balancing is achieved by the proper pelvic tilt, which controls the curvature of the lower back. He advises sitting on different wedge-shaped pads to feel how relaxing it is to the back when you find the best seat angle. Since you need to change position, you need to change seat angle. Linden claims that this is the most important parameter in a chair. To remain comfortable longer, the shape of your back should be established by the angle of the seat, not just the chair back.
Of the current Herman Miller and Steelcase lines, only the Criterion lets you tilt the seat as desired and then lock it at that angle. The Aeron and Leap chairs let the seat tilt down-in-front, for leaning forward, but lock in only two positions.
One thing to consider is that the older chairs are much more solidly built, so you could get a used one and still expect a long life from it. I found broken plastic parts and broken seat tilt locks on both top-of-the-line all-plastic chairs, Aeron and Leap, this despite the Aeron's twelve-year warranty.
Here are my observations:
Aeron (Herman Miller): Very confortable to lean back in- doesn't tend to pull your shirt out or create pressure under the thighs due to its sophisticated linkage system with the main pivot near the knees. Three sizes. Arms adjust to different heights and different angles in the horizontal plane, but arm-arm distance is fixed.
Lumbar pad slides up and down; plastic was worn and it wouldn't stay put. Seat tilt locks in normal or forward position (except it didn't work). Back tilt can be set to stop at choice of three angles. Seat is woven material in tension, like a hammock; very comfortable lack of pressure spots, but pelvic tilt is undeterministic. $750.
Equa 2 (Herman Miller): Very comfortable and strongly constructed. A contender. Three sizes. Seat and back are one-piece fiberglass shell, seat and back flex independently, providing support in different sitting positions. Arms adjust in height, spacing, and angle. Inflatable lumbar support adjustable up-and-down. Main seat pivot is near the knees. Can be locked in upright position. Also available as simpler bent-tube-frame model.
Leap (Steelcase): Their answer to the Aeron. Of surprisingly thin plastic construction. Flexible one-piece plastic back has adjustable curvature for low back firmness control, but it wouldn't lock in place. Front of seat can tilt down for sitting forward, but this control also was broken. Arms adjust in height, spacing, and angle, but rattled around a bit in locked position. Salesman didn't want to tell me how much they were asking for this turkey.
Criterion (Steelcase): Very comfortable and strong. Seat can be locked at any desired tilt angle; so can back. Back adjusts up-down and seat adjusts forward-back for perfect fit. Couldn't crank the recliner spring as stiff as I would like. Arms adjust in height and spacing, but not angle. One size. A strong contender.
Sensor (Steelcase): Quite comfortable, solid, older design. Three sizes. Back adjusts up-down, different recline limit stops. Contoured seat tilts from center. Arms adjust in height, apacing, not angle. Also needs a stiffer spring for reclining.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. -Albert Einstein
I tried accessing http://www.biomorph-desk.com/ and it seemed they have been slashdotted.
Is there any alternative sites that I can go find out more about ergonomic furnitures?
Thanks in advance.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I mean, I think that ergo keyboards are crap, but I really don't see how they're liberal. They're keyboards, and not even good ones.
Also, having fucked up my wrists this summer, I really dispute your assertion that people who've written about similar injuries are "shills" and that their injuries are nonexistent. I'm assuming that you've never damaged your wrists while coding; it isn't fun.
O.K., this is very unorthodox, but I bought a Balans Wing chair (designed by Peter Opsvik) many years ago. Mine was made by Westnofa, but Mr. Opsvik now has a similar design made by this company (with new! :) adjustments): http://www.stokke-furniture.no/wing.html?48,35
My experiences: First, I'm slender and weigh in at around 130 lbs., so don't ask me how Balans chairs work for those with greater mass or different body types. Clearly there is something to be said for having weight transferred to the front of my shins.
Sitting in this chair is *real different*, and takes some getting used to. Funny thing, this design promotes *good* posture. I habitually slouch when sitting in regular chairs much of the time.
In this chair, sometimes I do slouch, and sometimes not, I spin back and forth, rest feet on the knee rest, and otherwise seem a little fidgety, but I'm *not* uncomfortable. Just like the philosophy extolled on the above web site, this chair promotes movement. You don't vegetate in a Balans chair, nor take a nap either! This might be a way to talk your boss into springing for the cost of this Scandinavian designed/built chair. Mine is top quality, built to last, and pleasing to the eye.
I suspect this one falls into the religious/love/hate category. Like I said before, it's *real different*.
Several years ago, I read that Colin Powell uses a high desk, and he stands while using it. I tried this arrangement by getting a lab table and putting reams of printer paper under the legs until the table height was approximately 1" below my elbows.
... so more productivity!
I found this to be a surprisingly comfortable setup, and recently had a custom desk built to my needs. I can stand and work for several hours at a time. For telephone calls, reading, or other non-computer activities, I move to a chair in my office.
The result: no back pain, great posture, and standing keeps my attention from wandering
Ergonomic devices prolong the onset of pain- they do not make it go away or somehow protect you from the forces of your body. I've had wrist pain for about 2 years and have been computing for about 13 years. I've recently discovered Pete Egoscue's amazing book "Pain Free". Egoscue is brilliant- he describes in plain english how your body works, why it hurts and how to fix it. He states [on Ergonomic Chairs], "These chairs are substituting their design for your muscles. They hold you in a position that forces the spine into a semblance of an S-curve, which is what your muscles are supposed to be doing but aren't. This does nothing to strengthen the muscles."
The main ideas Egoscue presents are:
1) Human beings need motion to survive- as much as we need food and shelter.
2) One of our traits (he says we developed 3.2M years ago) is that our brains shut off muscles we aren't using; this is an energy saving mechanism that in the wild could have meant the difference between life and death.
3) We don't move enough- most of us drive, few of us walk or exert ourselves.
The book is arranged in a very practical way- the first 3 chapters describe basic concepts regarding the function of the body. Chapters 4-12 go through the major joints of the body from the ankles to the neck. Each chapter offers specific information about that particular joint as well as specific exercises to alleviate pain. Chapter 13 is a conditioning/maintenance chapter that he suggests everyone should do.
The pain relief from the first day I did the exercises for Hand/Elbow pain was worth the cost of the book. He's on the web at www.egoscue.com.
The Slashdot effect is not kind to those businesses with "hard transfer limits" set by their ISP. I suppose right now their CIO is looking at their ISP bill and wondering what the hell happened...
I use a split keyboard at home, and have a standard Microsoft Wheel mouse a the office. (If I could just figure a way to get all of the stuff I like on the same PC w/o toting them all over the earth). Point being, I love my MS split keyboard, except that they have taken the arrow keys on the new board and shaped them into a pretty little diamond for complete inaccesability. I usually just use the number pad to get around this faux pax. And I have to say that I will be on the system for hours at a time using MS-this-or-that, which usually requires me to be using the mouse, and I never have any problems. I tried several different options while I was sitting here, and I can't find any way to hold/use the mouse and need to move my arm at all. most of the time I just move my wrist and get where I need to be. (Course the wheel on the mouse makes scrolling easier).
.sig
Oh, and as a side note, when I got the split keyboard I wasn't all that great at typing. It never really caused me any problems, and now my keystrokes on a regular, plain, old, straight, no perks keyboard (read laptop) have improved. My fingers are now aware of the places they can, and cannot, reach.
toph
--still looking for a cute little
Listen up naysayers. I have been using a keyboard and mouse most of my life, and I never paid any attention to all that stuff about RSI, carpal tunnelling, or ergonomics. I figured that it was just a myth that people were cashing in on.
Six months ago however I started to get severe muscular problems with my right wrist and my neck. Side effects include involuntary muscular twitches and shaking, and sharp pains. It scares the crap out of my GF when my hand can't stop shaking or my neck twitches as if I had some kind of tic (I don't)
There are days when I can't even hold a cup of tea. That's scary for 2 reasons : firstly the health concerns, and secondly the thought of losing my livelihood. I mean, without being able to type or use a mouse I would find it pretty hard to earn a living.
The natural reaction when you face something like this is to get scared and throw as much money as you can at buying expensive equipment. I believe many of the companies listed in this thread are cashing in on people's fears and concerns.
I think it is possible to find a comfortable, safe working environment cheaply. MS mice are great, and the MS Natural keyboard has really helped me a lot. Also, the more adjustible your chair is, the better as far as I am concerned.
Please don't make light of this topic. Ergonomic furniture may be a con-job, but the issues and problems are for real.
Try before you buy is great advice for any input device. However, it takes more than a few hours to get used to a split-keyboard. It took me at least a few days of regular use before my error-rate went down to what it was with a "straight" keyboard.
I will agree though that the split-board is not for everyone. Bottom line is make sure you buy from someone who has a good return policy in case you hate the thing.....
Personally I don't mind the corner desk, a "flat" keyboard or a blocky, 3 button, no frills mouse but please, PLEASE, turn *off* the damned overhead, non-directional flourecent lights! I know people who get headaches from the refresh of the monitor compined with the flicker of those lights. Personally, having worked graves for 2+ years at a small ISP, I am quite content with enhancing my tan only with the monitor, nothing else.
:/
Of course, if one does get the lights turned off one finds out something real quick. Unlike paper, a monitor projects light. That means black on while (hint, hint, Slashdot-type people) is blinding while the true colors, white on black, are quite easy to read.
Personally, I'm worried more about all of this glaring, blinding, horrible light and pages designed for it than I am with the other parts of "ergonomics". I mean, I bet there are some regs and standards on ergonomics which state that everything should be well lit.
-- Grey d'Miyu, not just another pretty color.
send flames > /dev/null
Only 'flamers' flame!
The Computer Stand is the best thing I've ever used. You pull it up next to an easy chair or even a bed. Probably it's best to set a timer, or you'll miss meals.
It's patented (possibly only pending, but I know there's at least a provisional patent in place)
http://www.xel.net/computerstand.htm
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
I agree with the other response that says complain or leave. I'm doing the former and planning on the latter. Any company that is so stupid they'd risk a RSI lawsuit is worth leaving, esp. if you're a programmer and in demand.
Truly an excellent prediction by Mr. Allen, along with the Orgasmatron.
Otherwise, I play games and surf at home, in bed, and it works OK. Although I have to prop up my mouse-wrist with a pillow usually ...
Looking at most of the prices and sizes on the websites people have linked to here, it seems pretty clear that their target market isn't a female keyboard jockey with limited income. I am pretty skeptical about an ergonomic design with a heavy, heavy price tag - the people who can afford to buy it wouldn't seem to be the ones who need it most. I doubt most companies will fork out the several hundred dollars (and up) required for this stuff, either. I've had to search awfully hard to find solutions that fit my physique and budget.
Most keyboards are made for larger hands than mine. Whenever I can find a small keyboard with smaller keys, my wrists are just in much better shape; unfortunately I have had a hard time finding small keyboards.
The standard 101 key keyboard with number pad makes you have to reach for your mouse further away. If you do a lot of mousing, this can wear on your shoulder joint (at least it does mine). If I use a small keyboard without the number pad, and then make sure that the mouse or trackball is on the same level as the keyboard, it makes a big difference.
Currently I have a Suntouch Jr. keyboard with a trackball (although using a trackball doesn't work for everyone) and a $50 kneeling chair from Office Depot, which I alternate with my task chair. This seems to work quite well.
Love, Squeedle
I *highly* recommend their Contour Keyboard, it has saved my hands + wrists.