Re:Linux Has Travelled Far... In The Wrong Directi
on
Linus on Linux in 1994
·
· Score: 1
In my understanding of the issue being discussed, you are a little off topic, even if all you say is actually true. But english being NOT my mother tongue, maybe it's me who didnt understand the original poster. For sure, I didnt feel I needed to be precise in the free beer/free speech area, because there isn't such mix of notions in my language.
I understood that the original poster was talking about what needs to be PROMOTED to the person we want to recommand linux. In that understanding, going along the anti windows road is a short sighted decision since redmond won't do the same errors always. It is also perceived as blatant lies by the people who, like you say, are perfectly happy running windows.
On the other hand, the fact that a company needs tens of billions and monopolistic practices to be able to do the same things that a handfull of coders around the globe, and is unable at the end of the day to achieve basic security where the free nature of the free software comunity FORCE THEM to always TRY to reach it actually interrest a lot of people, even clueless users. People DO have common sense. They do understand the pragmatical benefits of free software without going deep into the theory. So that is what needs to be promoted, because that is what produces the difference.
Since we are talking about common sense, all you said about the work that needs to be done, both for the user who needs his system to perform well and for the coders, is, of course, perfectly true. I wouldnt advise linux for anything that it can't achieve (music or video editing comes to mind for example, although it's moving there), but I wouldnt restrain myself to advise it for any regular desktop behavior. And is it enough of an improvement to get people to give up what they've been using for years and learn an entirely new system? In itself, freedon is worth it. Now, I wouldnt advise such a person to give it up, I would advise him/her to give it a try, just to have his opinion made. But that is, another time, off topic. I've seen a mac user, a graphist working in manga edition, unable to switch to windows with the same software. So, linux or not, this point is about habits, and the difficulty to lose them, not about linux, windows, mac or freedom. Hey, even some linux users are lost without their distro!
Re:Linux Has Travelled Far... In The Wrong Directi
on
Linus on Linux in 1994
·
· Score: 1
No one cares how "free" Linux is aside from people like us. until you've explained to them. My parents, whom I described in another post as computer clueless, have been running Mandrake linux on their desktop for 2 years. They don't care about anything that is related to a computer at all. Yet, they are interrested in their computer not having viruses and the computer of their friends being off the net for one or two weeks every 6 months because of them. And being computer illeterates doesnt mean they are dumb, they can understand that a free (-dom) environment means that no unsecure decision based on marketing pressure needs to be done, they can understand that people code is open to peer review and that is shows, and they can understand that billions of euros are not going overseas to fund a notorious monopolistic and unsecure company. And they did. The original post is about what we should say, that is: advertise or better, promote. I don't promote anti windows or anti redmond crap, because it relies on redmond doing for ever the same mistakes. They won't. I promote free software AND talk about the same things as you, even taking redmond as a bad example, but I always link those points to their origin: free code and the comunity behind it are the reasons.
I don't tell them to run Linux either. I would never do that. I recommend for "normal" people to buy a Mac. Well, linux has been a long way since slackware 3.5, you should try some new user friendly distro.;) My child who is 7 years old, has her own account, type her login and password then fire up some incredibly stupid video of some hype top of the pop lame singer or the sims. You don't need to know any esoteric stuff to run your desktop as a "normal" user.
Re:Linux Has Travelled Far... In The Wrong Directi
on
Linus on Linux in 1994
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Stop saying how bad windows is. Say how good Linux is. I propose saying how free linux is and that that is what makes the big difference at the end of the day in how it is good as a system and in how it is good as a community.
I can buy the 3 download cds for 3 euros, the update cd is at 2.6 euros, and another 3euros for the 3 source cd if i need them. The mail is around 1 euro, same for taxes. Don't you have such a service in your country? That makes it a little less expensive than the magasine but much faster. And the service I use give back to the fsf.
The fixes are in cooker (the development version, but frozzen at this time; so, basically, a 10.0 with bugfixes being tested).
The mail: Re: [Cooker] what about updates ?...SNIP... On Wednesday 10 March 2004 13:16, > > Here we go. kde 3.2.1 is out. Lots of fixes. Packages on the way ? Cooker is frozen. so we can't upload kde3.2.1. But I added all critical fix into kde3.2.0 p ackage for cooker (look at all changelogs)
This "french musicians rights group" is basically the french government. It gets a cut from every sale, every aired music, even music you put in your store for your customer to listen. It then gives back to all the musicians who are members. The pros: -you get defended by a big player. -small obscure musicians who did write still played music can have a nice retirement (a jazz musician told me that about his grand father) without paying lawyers and such to get their rights enforced. -well organised. The cons: -you're practically obliged to be a member. -all the money doesnt get in the musicians pockets (surprise! see above: it's the government). -the bigger fishes still are more favorised than the smallest (but not like it would be if they were alone against the music corporations).
I installed mandrake 8.2 on a pc I built for them. They hadnt touched a computer before, they just stared blankly at me the first time I said "press escape". They use it ever since, I did an upgrade with 9.2, they thanked me because "it became faster" (new kde). They also thank me whenever a virus wave hit their friend, because ALL OF THEM are hit in some ways every time and SOME OF THEM even disappear from the net for weeks "until their computer is fixed". The praises I get for a simple install once a year, and a few updates here and then: PRICELESS!
KHTML: fix animated GIFs not looping (#72953)
Oh c'mon, that was my FAVORITE bug! Who was the dork who filed this bug report?;-) Damn! I have been specifically unable them for months and it didnt work!!?? Wow, that seems like a pretty big bug. I wonder how people lived with their volume not staying the same. Well, they thought it was an alsa bug, so they tried to learn how to use alsa, then they tried to put all those obscure options in obscure alsa proc entries they found on "users" forums, then they got mad.
They didnt go gold, only the comunity went out. Not that it means that kde3.2.1 will be in the final. It Would be a nice move tho', since some of those bugs are really bothering.
Absolutly. If you liked dk and b&w gameplay, then this is not the right discussion for us to argue: I was really talking about the difference between his speeches and what finally ends up in his games.
Not my primary language:) Yes, I will try to watch it in video. I didnt see neither of the 2 last episodes, not that I didnt like the first, but more because the difference of feeling between what Mr Jackson depicts and what I "saw" in the book are too far away. Tom Bombadil is THE element I still think about from those books.
Mandrake is a kde by deffault distribution, yet its number one media at the moment is totem, a gnome media player. So that proves them desktop environment agnostic. They try to find the best tool for their users, right or wrong. On the other hand, you know damn well if you've read the finding of facts of the anti trust trial (or a summary), that microsoft used is browser integration to destroy competition, not to enhance the user experience, since it prevented to remove it from the system before it was tied to it and since it forced OEMs to remove netscape icons from the desktop. There is no blur there and yes it is the case of the browser integration. There is no blur because it is all about the behavior and the intention of one company to use its monopoly to enforce its position at the expense of the competition. At that time, there was a deal between the european justice and the doj, "we stay quiet on the microsoft front because YOU say YOU can take care of it or we will". Since the USA didnt fulfill their part of the deal, it's now the european justice turn to act. Will it be more successfull, we're going to see.
In the book, there was Tom Bombadil and right at the beginning of the story at that. Puzzling man!
In the book there was a story about ents' wives, which was sad and moving and give a lot of relief to those tree characters.
In the book there was a sad ending when the heroes go back to their homeland and discover the price they have to pay for their actions.
I'm not seing the movies are bad, they arent.
I'm not saying I'm a terrible fan of the book, I am not, it isnt even one of my favorite books of all time.
I just say I prefered the book because the 3 things I prefered and found emotionnally moving were absent of the movie. Being a coherent man, i didnt go to watch the second and third part.
B&W was nowhere near any of what he said was going to be in it. This was my point, that it was disappointing not that it didnt sell well. My other point was that b&w was dull in term of gameplay too. Remember the incredible zooming options where you start from planet level and zoom in until you see the apple the peasant is holding in his hand fullscreen and there's a worm in it? What about the fact that the peasants were supposed to have their own life and you kinda try to influence them? They in fact were nothing more than bots. As a matter of fact, you're right, it was more a Theme b&w than a godlike game. Same for dungeon keeper, we were expecting at that time a kind of dark dungeon simulation, kind of what neverwinter is but even more free AND centered around the dungeon. Nothing near what was delivered, another repetitive simulation were you have to find how to beat the level with a few options. Some people did like the gameplay they found in b&w, and some people did like the gameplay they found in dungeon keeper(I know one personnaly). But most people were disappointed to death because they did bite his speeches and didnt find what was promised, advertised actually. Well, I did bite the dungeon keeper speeches and I did bite the b&w speeches and I don't anymore. Molyneux? No thanks, there is a worm in the apple...
I already said you were right and proved me wrong, so there is no reason to continue in this direction. But no, this guy Andy is not an USER. If you need to be able to compile your kernel to be qualified as a "NOT clueless" USER, then there arent many such users out there.
Though my equipment is DoS and intrusion hardened, I can guarantee you no end user who's just installed Mandrake or Red Hat for the first time will be able or willing to read through the GRSecurity manual pages and implement policies and overflow protection in a recompiled kernel. This is not the behavior of a user, wether clueless or not. As a matter of fact, if the above is really needed, it should be the job of the kernel maintener of each distro!
Right! And you forget to tell that doing conference that either talks about high level gaming concepts or that presents the high level gaming concepts that suposedly will be in his next game (but actually won't) is part of his PR machine. Face it, it's not only black and white, all his late games are just plain boring and missed their goal. He is living on Populous fame.
Right, but I maintain that this is a side track from roblimo, which is not directly related to the kind of attackers the article is talking about. Not being clueless doesnt help when the so called "kiddy" has an undisclosed exploit for month. But you get the point:)
Where in the article are they talking about the users of the machine they hack being clueless? They are talking about using unknown exploits months before patches exist or even before the flaws are known. In that regard which system is the more secure do matter. Not that anything you said isn't true, but the kind of script kiddie the article is talking about wouldnt get any kind of fame from taking advantage of users who alread shot themselves in the foot. Now coming back to your point, I believe the social network would make a difference. Those users you depict are completly fresh to linux but they will need help sooner or later (well,...sooner), and they will go to some suSe -red hat - mandrake - linux forum. There, they will get educated.
But has it been scientifically proved? THAT is the question. btw if more and more "scientific" lose their time to prove that kind of things, "scientifically proved" might become an other way to say "mentally challenged".
I'm not insensitive to your pain, my friend. I can't share my bread with you, unless you live near here (Paris) but you can share my linux. As a matter of fact, you can make it yours! Raise, brother and fdisk it!
I assume we are talking about mandrake official release times. Of course, being gpled, it can be available elsewhere. As a matter of fact, I remember that the public ftps were available right away, just the isos werent there. I did update the distro (rc1 ->final) through urpmi after having put the rpms I needed on my machine. (Which was much faster then getting it through bittorent). Well, I never paid a boxed version of mandrake, but i do pay 60 euros for my usage of it. I find that quite cheap for the ease of use it provides and I'm not rich. I also paid another extra 60 for my parents when I installed it on their pc. I again found that quite cheap to know that they are virus free: being clueless users they are quite vulnerable. Hearing thanks and greetings from them, because "your linux is really good! Another of our friends is infested by viruses and wont be able to use its mail for weeks! thx!" is really gratifying. Priceless!
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In my understanding of the issue being discussed, you are a little off topic, even if all you say is actually true. But english being NOT my mother tongue, maybe it's me who didnt understand the original poster. For sure, I didnt feel I needed to be precise in the free beer/free speech area, because there isn't such mix of notions in my language.
I understood that the original poster was talking about what needs to be PROMOTED to the person we want to recommand linux.
In that understanding, going along the anti windows road is a short sighted decision since redmond won't do the same errors always. It is also perceived as blatant lies by the people who, like you say, are perfectly happy running windows.
On the other hand, the fact that a company needs tens of billions and monopolistic practices to be able to do the same things that a handfull of coders around the globe, and is unable at the end of the day to achieve basic security where the free nature of the free software comunity FORCE THEM to always TRY to reach it actually interrest a lot of people, even clueless users.
People DO have common sense. They do understand the pragmatical benefits of free software without going deep into the theory. So that is what needs to be promoted, because that is what produces the difference.
Since we are talking about common sense, all you said about the work that needs to be done, both for the user who needs his system to perform well and for the coders, is, of course, perfectly true. I wouldnt advise linux for anything that it can't achieve (music or video editing comes to mind for example, although it's moving there), but I wouldnt restrain myself to advise it for any regular desktop behavior.
And is it enough of an improvement to get people to give up what they've been using for years and learn an entirely new system?
In itself, freedon is worth it. Now, I wouldnt advise such a person to give it up, I would advise him/her to give it a try, just to have his opinion made. But that is, another time, off topic. I've seen a mac user, a graphist working in manga edition, unable to switch to windows with the same software. So, linux or not, this point is about habits, and the difficulty to lose them, not about linux, windows, mac or freedom. Hey, even some linux users are lost without their distro!
No one cares how "free" Linux is aside from people like us. .
;)
until you've explained to them.
My parents, whom I described in another post as computer clueless, have been running Mandrake linux on their desktop for 2 years.
They don't care about anything that is related to a computer at all. Yet, they are interrested in their computer not having viruses and the computer of their friends being off the net for one or two weeks every 6 months because of them. And being computer illeterates doesnt mean they are dumb, they can understand that a free (-dom) environment means that no unsecure decision based on marketing pressure needs to be done, they can understand that people code is open to peer review and that is shows, and they can understand that billions of euros are not going overseas to fund a notorious monopolistic and unsecure company. And they did.
The original post is about what we should say, that is: advertise or better, promote.
I don't promote anti windows or anti redmond crap, because it relies on redmond doing for ever the same mistakes. They won't.
I promote free software AND talk about the same things as you, even taking redmond as a bad example, but I always link those points to their origin: free code and the comunity behind it are the reasons
I don't tell them to run Linux either. I would never do that. I recommend for "normal" people to buy a Mac.
Well, linux has been a long way since slackware 3.5, you should try some new user friendly distro.
My child who is 7 years old, has her own account, type her login and password then fire up some incredibly stupid video of some hype top of the pop lame singer or the sims. You don't need to know any esoteric stuff to run your desktop as a "normal" user.
Stop saying how bad windows is. Say how good Linux is.
I propose saying how free linux is and that that is what makes the big difference at the end of the day in how it is good as a system and in how it is good as a community.
I can buy the 3 download cds for 3 euros, the update cd is at 2.6 euros, and another 3euros for the 3 source cd if i need them.
The mail is around 1 euro, same for taxes.
Don't you have such a service in your country? That makes it a little less expensive than the magasine but much faster. And the service I use give back to the fsf.
The fixes are in cooker (the development version, but frozzen at this time; so, basically, a 10.0 with bugfixes being tested).
...SNIP...
The mail:
Re: [Cooker] what about updates ?
On Wednesday 10 March 2004 13:16,
> > Here we go. kde 3.2.1 is out. Lots of fixes. Packages on the way ?
Cooker is frozen.
so we can't upload kde3.2.1.
But I added all critical fix into kde3.2.0 p ackage for cooker (look at all
changelogs)
This "french musicians rights group" is basically the french government.
It gets a cut from every sale, every aired music, even music you put in your store for your customer to listen. It then gives back to all the musicians who are members.
The pros:
-you get defended by a big player.
-small obscure musicians who did write still played music can have a nice retirement (a jazz musician told me that about his grand father) without paying lawyers and such to get their rights enforced.
-well organised.
The cons:
-you're practically obliged to be a member.
-all the money doesnt get in the musicians pockets (surprise! see above: it's the government).
-the bigger fishes still are more favorised than the smallest (but not like it would be if they were alone against the music corporations).
I installed mandrake 8.2 on a pc I built for them. They hadnt touched a computer before, they just stared blankly at me the first time I said "press escape".
They use it ever since, I did an upgrade with 9.2, they thanked me because "it became faster" (new kde). They also thank me whenever a virus wave hit their friend, because ALL OF THEM are hit in some ways every time and SOME OF THEM even disappear from the net for weeks "until their computer is fixed".
The praises I get for a simple install once a year, and a few updates here and then: PRICELESS!
KHTML: fix animated GIFs not looping (#72953) ;-)
Oh c'mon, that was my FAVORITE bug! Who was the dork who filed this bug report?
Damn! I have been specifically unable them for months and it didnt work!!??
Wow, that seems like a pretty big bug. I wonder how people lived with their volume not staying the same.
Well, they thought it was an alsa bug, so they tried to learn how to use alsa, then they tried to put all those obscure options in obscure alsa proc entries they found on "users" forums, then they got mad.
They didnt go gold, only the comunity went out. Not that it means that kde3.2.1 will be in the final. It Would be a nice move tho', since some of those bugs are really bothering.
Yes, thanks. It was interresting.
Not anybody interrested in him agree on who he might be, but he really becomes someone precisely because of that.
Absolutly.
If you liked dk and b&w gameplay, then this is not the right discussion for us to argue: I was really talking about the difference between his speeches and what finally ends up in his games.
Not my primary language :)
Yes, I will try to watch it in video. I didnt see neither of the 2 last episodes, not that I didnt like the first, but more because the difference of feeling between what Mr Jackson depicts and what I "saw" in the book are too far away. Tom Bombadil is THE element I still think about from those books.
It would probably be:
Buy a Microsoft product, get a BSOD (Blue Schock Of Death)!
Mandrake is a kde by deffault distribution, yet its number one media at the moment is totem, a gnome media player.
So that proves them desktop environment agnostic. They try to find the best tool for their users, right or wrong.
On the other hand, you know damn well if you've read the finding of facts of the anti trust trial (or a summary), that microsoft used is browser integration to destroy competition, not to enhance the user experience, since it prevented to remove it from the system before it was tied to it and since it forced OEMs to remove netscape icons from the desktop.
There is no blur there and yes it is the case of the browser integration. There is no blur because it is all about the behavior and the intention of one company to use its monopoly to enforce its position at the expense of the competition.
At that time, there was a deal between the european justice and the doj, "we stay quiet on the microsoft front because YOU say YOU can take care of it or we will". Since the USA didnt fulfill their part of the deal, it's now the european justice turn to act. Will it be more successfull, we're going to see.
In the book, there was Tom Bombadil and right at the beginning of the story at that. Puzzling man!
In the book there was a story about ents' wives, which was sad and moving and give a lot of relief to those tree characters.
In the book there was a sad ending when the heroes go back to their homeland and discover the price they have to pay for their actions.
I'm not seing the movies are bad, they arent.
I'm not saying I'm a terrible fan of the book, I am not, it isnt even one of my favorite books of all time.
I just say I prefered the book because the 3 things I prefered and found emotionnally moving were absent of the movie. Being a coherent man, i didnt go to watch the second and third part.
B&W was nowhere near any of what he said was going to be in it. This was my point, that it was disappointing not that it didnt sell well. My other point was that b&w was dull in term of gameplay too.
Remember the incredible zooming options where you start from planet level and zoom in until you see the apple the peasant is holding in his hand fullscreen and there's a worm in it?
What about the fact that the peasants were supposed to have their own life and you kinda try to influence them? They in fact were nothing more than bots.
As a matter of fact, you're right, it was more a Theme b&w than a godlike game. Same for dungeon keeper, we were expecting at that time a kind of dark dungeon simulation, kind of what neverwinter is but even more free AND centered around the dungeon. Nothing near what was delivered, another repetitive simulation were you have to find how to beat the level with a few options.
Some people did like the gameplay they found in b&w, and some people did like the gameplay they found in dungeon keeper(I know one personnaly). But most people were disappointed to death because they did bite his speeches and didnt find what was promised, advertised actually.
Well, I did bite the dungeon keeper speeches and I did bite the b&w speeches and I don't anymore.
Molyneux? No thanks, there is a worm in the apple...
I already said you were right and proved me wrong, so there is no reason to continue in this direction.
But no, this guy Andy is not an USER. If you need to be able to compile your kernel to be qualified as a "NOT clueless" USER, then there arent many such users out there.
Though my equipment is DoS and intrusion hardened, I can guarantee you no end user who's just installed Mandrake or Red Hat for the first time will be able or willing to read through the GRSecurity manual pages and implement policies and overflow protection in a recompiled kernel.
This is not the behavior of a user, wether clueless or not. As a matter of fact, if the above is really needed, it should be the job of the kernel maintener of each distro!
Right!
And you forget to tell that doing conference that either talks about high level gaming concepts or that presents the high level gaming concepts that suposedly will be in his next game (but actually won't) is part of his PR machine.
Face it, it's not only black and white, all his late games are just plain boring and missed their goal. He is living on Populous fame.
Right, but I maintain that this is a side track from roblimo, which is not directly related to the kind of attackers the article is talking about. Not being clueless doesnt help when the so called "kiddy" has an undisclosed exploit for month. :)
But you get the point
Where in the article are they talking about the users of the machine they hack being clueless? ...sooner), and they will go to some suSe -red hat - mandrake - linux forum. There, they will get educated.
They are talking about using unknown exploits months before patches exist or even before the flaws are known. In that regard which system is the more secure do matter.
Not that anything you said isn't true, but the kind of script kiddie the article is talking about wouldnt get any kind of fame from taking advantage of users who alread shot themselves in the foot.
Now coming back to your point, I believe the social network would make a difference. Those users you depict are completly fresh to linux but they will need help sooner or later (well,
It reminded me of Tarkhovsky's movie "Stalker".
You might like it, if this kind of feeling appeals to you.
But has it been scientifically proved?
THAT is the question.
btw if more and more "scientific" lose their time to prove that kind of things, "scientifically proved" might become an other way to say "mentally challenged".
I'm not insensitive to your pain, my friend. I can't share my bread with you, unless you live near here (Paris) but you can share my linux. As a matter of fact, you can make it yours!
Raise, brother and fdisk it!
I assume we are talking about mandrake official release times. Of course, being gpled, it can be available elsewhere. As a matter of fact, I remember that the public ftps were available right away, just the isos werent there. I did update the distro (rc1 ->final) through urpmi after having put the rpms I needed on my machine. (Which was much faster then getting it through bittorent).
Well, I never paid a boxed version of mandrake, but i do pay 60 euros for my usage of it. I find that quite cheap for the ease of use it provides and I'm not rich. I also paid another extra 60 for my parents when I installed it on their pc. I again found that quite cheap to know that they are virus free: being clueless users they are quite vulnerable.
Hearing thanks and greetings from them, because "your linux is really good! Another of our friends is infested by viruses and wont be able to use its mail for weeks! thx!" is really gratifying. Priceless!
I used to play counter and action quake2 that way on a p200mmx. I had a better framerate and no dark places.