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DirectNIC Crisis Manager Braves the Chaos of New Orleans
Aleks Clark writes "The Interdictor, a DirectNIC crisis manager, is currently braving the madness of post-Katrina New Orleans. Server rescues, OC4 repairs and live video and audio feeds abound as he and his crew battle the odds with what seems like the entire internet at his back. 1700+ People are tracking his blog, and IRC channels are full to capacity."
These guys set the bar for uptime and connectivity... I've been continually impressed. Bravo!
They briefly borked DNS (looked like a typo in the IP address), but appears they've got the DNS servers moved outside of the affected area, so if their last internet connection goes down, or they encounter internal problems (power, food, looting, etc), their DNS clients should stay up.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
...until you realize how many people are using blogs and other internet services as their only means of communication.
Tim
I don't understand what this story is about and the link is down. Damn.
It's really quite interesting to see a first hand account of what's going on instead of all the media buzz.
Let's call it "extreme libertarianism."
He's a world-class prick, but you can't question the guy's tenacity. It was from him that I learned that USGIs were moving in to the area, and that the French Quarter is now dry.
Finding God in a Dog
It was interesting to see in that blog that what I've heard elsewhere is confirmed: Police are doing much of the looting.
Its unfortunate that government sweeps in during disasters and starts making mandates that make things worse. Like prohibitions against price "gauging". What, they htink things get cheaper when the infrastructure is destroyed?
Gauging actually helps-- it brings in more supply to service that demand, and ultimately prices go down FASTER when the free market is allowed.
Here's an economists take on the issue:
Price Gauging saves lives: http://www.mises.org/story/1593
And another: http://www.lewrockwell.com/akers/akers16.html
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
1700+ People are tracking his blog
And now many more, so when you get it all back up and running, prepare for a Slashdotting.
I read through the blog and can't tell exactly what he is doing. If it is trying to restore internet access, provide a shelter/forward post for police or what. Could someone please clarify what all he and the team are doing?
people in the IRC channels have been wondering how long it'd take this to get slashdotted
They keep em up through a hurricane, flooding, riots and the /. editors decide to take the servers down themselves...
Sick of stupidity? http://www.patentlystupid.com
Just curious, where is the power for his net connection coming from? He has an OC4 up and running... yet nobody else has phone service or internet service... I understand he has generator power... what I do not understand is what is powering the data lines running to his location... are they all on major generators also?
Need a Nerd?
Nerd Systems
...were so diligent. Seriously, the madness and 'Lord of the Flies' atmosphere that has taken place in my home city of New Orleans with no food, no water, no communication, and no signs of help are heartbreaking and a true tragedy. The loss is immense and our government has failed us--this is the United States and we needed to do better for our own.
sig my booty, check my website
as a directnic employee working remotely from Manhattan I have been working round the clock to aid these guys any way I can.
we are on freenode in #interdictor
we have had a lot of support, thank you guys.
as far as directnic employees, we have made contact with most, we are still missing our entire accounting/HR department and many of our support people are MIA, we can only assume they got out.
as a company, the majority of our employees are currently homeless and are regrouping in Florida currently.
They are pretty hardcore there, not sure they can even get out now..
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
If anyone enters, looks threatening and asks, just reply, "MASTER BLASTER RUNS BARTERTOWN!" Works like a charm.
"Anonymous Coward" is for whistleblowers, not unpopular opinions.
His blog is hosted by LiveJournal. I find it highly unlikely that LiveJournal can be slashdotted considering it's enormity. Mirroring LiveJournal seems a bit silly, it is like mirroring slashdot if boingboing were to link to it, it is pointless.
AmeriCares:americares.org
RoommateClick.comSite offering a service for the New Orleans homeless, free of charge.
Baton Rouge Area Foundation(BRAF): 877.387.6126 or braf.org
Episcopal Relief & Development: 1-800-334-7626 or www.er-d.org
United Methodist Committee on Relief: 1-800-554-8583 or gbgm-umc.org/umcor/emergency/hurricanes/2005
Salvation Army: 1-800-SAL-ARMY or www.salvationarmyusa.org
Catholic Charities: 1-800-919-9338 or www.catholiccharitiesusa.org
FEMA Charity tips: www.fema.gov/rrr/help2.shtm
National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster: www.nvoad.org
Louisiana Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals: www.la-spca.org
Operation Blessing: 1-800-436-6348 or www.ob.org
America's Second Harvest: 1-800-344-8070 or www.secondharvest.org
Adventist Community Services: 1-800-381-7171 or www.adventist.communityservices.org
Christian Disaster Response: 1-941-956-5183 or 1-941-551-9554 or www.cdresponse.org/cdrhome.html
Christian Reformed World Relief Committee: 1-800-848-5818 or www.crwrc.org
Church World Service: 1-800-297-1516 or www.churchworldservice.org
Convoy of Hope: 1-417-823-8998 or www.convoyofhope.org
Lutheran Disaster Response: 1-800-638-3522 or www.elca.org/disaster
Mennonite Disaster Service: 1-717-859-2210 or www.mds.mennonite.net
Nazarene Disaster Response: 1-888-256-5886 or www.nazarenedisasterresponse.org
Presbyterian Disaster Assistance: 1-800-872-3283 or www.pcusa.org/pda
Southern Baptist Convention - Disaster Relief: 1-800-462-8657, ext. 6440 or www.namb.net
irc.freenode.net channel #interdictor
We also have #interdictor-chat for random chat about it and #interdictor-scanner for radio transcripts from the scanners
X(7): A program for managing terminal windows. See also screen(1).
this is the United States and we needed to do better for our own.
Don't worry, even as we speak, the Republicans are signing checks to all the major companies that were hurt by the storm... oh, you meant "our own" as in the human beings. Well, I hear bush is on his way for a photo-op or two.
I was lucky enough to find this blog last night, the prospective on this tragedy is gripping. TV's lowest common denominator coverage just can't compare.
Until a /.ing is considered a natural disaster?
Your worst team meeting, software development project or vacation gone wrong is 1/1,000,000 as complex as what the relief personnel are handling. You may have been thwarted by snow on the road, delayed flights, crashing computers, lost data, wrong cellphone numbers or ill coworkers; these guys are dealing with non-existant roads, riots, gun shots, power loss and starvation. This is spread across 50,000 square miles of cities turned lakes. None of us can possibly fathom the details evacuating 60,000 people must be, tending to their transportation and health through an almost literal warzone.
We may know it's complex, but unless we're intimitely involved we cannot accurately critique the relief efforts. It'd be comparable to Brian Williams analyzing the Linux kernel structure, or attempting to explain fighter tactics. Without first-hand knowledge, opinions on sophisticated matters are worthless. As slashdotters who regularly tear apart the mass media on technical inaccuracies, we all should know this well
We are NOT full to capacity, please feel free to participate.
irc.freenode.net #interdictor
There are several sub-channels, such as #interdictor-chat for discussion/dialogue, #interdictor-scanner for a transcript of the radio scanner, etc.
We are also trying to track any news and information we can find to provide a summarized glimpse of the events as they happen. We're avoiding things that are already available through major news outlets, but any first-hand accounts, independent news sources, eye-witness information, international news, etc. (anything you couldn't find through, say, Fox News or MSNBC), please don't hesitate to help out.
Moo
Sorry I'm a bit off topic.
Take care, hope you get everything cleaned up soon.
How about some slashdotters set up a database driven site where people can register to be found and find others? They could list their employer, address, any significant information. I don't have the resources to do this but would be glad to help in throwing together some php and sql if given some server space.
I've temporarily put up an audio stream of MSNBC: put http://qnan.org:8000/katrina.ogg into your media player. Please don't abuse it, as there is a max. listener limit.
Seriously, the madness and 'Lord of the Flies' atmosphere that has taken place in my home city of New Orleans with no food, no water, no communication, and no signs of help are heartbreaking and a true tragedy.
... I am truly in heaven :-) I can only hope another such gift from Mother Nature in the next couple of weeks.
... but many of you out there think the same way)
I must be the only one truly enjoying this whole SHTF episode. The complete destruction of a city, thousands dead, the remaining population turned into a terrorizing bunch of savages, a government scrambling to maintain order, the rest of country panicking over energy shortages
(yeah, I have a sick mind
At the top of the blog, there is a link to some webcam. I tune in and you know what I see? Them playing on a Segway! Yeah, real hard work, you guys!
It's also extremely choppy.
Any effort towards communications in this devestated area that has been disregarded by our supposed "government," (for which we all pay taxes) should be praised. Hats off, and may releif come sooner than yesterday.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/gu itar-710427.jpg
Pictures of bodies floating by are currently on the front page of the New York Times.
I posted the following quote on the previous article, with no conclusions, but it was modded down by people who dislike facts they disagree with. Additionally there's more information now and I am posting a link to the original article from editor and publisher:
"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, in the Times-Picayune
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/artic le_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313
The above article also details what cuts were done by Bush to the SELA grants (for levees in New Orleans), which, by the way, were started and funded in 1995.
Additionally it appears that Louisiana should have been "high on the list of FEMA's biggest disaster mitigation grant program" but received nothing. Here's the article that states this: http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-2 8/cover_story2.html
Now, as before, mod this post into oblivion so that you don't have to see Bush smiling and playing the guitar yesterday while bodies float around. I'm not sure what disgusts me more -- him doing that, or people closing their eyes to truth.
The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.
(yeah, I have a sick mind ... but many of you out there think the same way)
Too bad the lot of you aren't in New Orleans right now. I'm sure you'd be having the time of your lives.
iSKUNK!
I am waiting for the "war on mother nature" to begin, after all, she attacked us on the homeland!
yap yap yap. yawn.
You can hear more streams and check out more info here http://wiki.nola-intel.org/index.php/Main_Page
I'm pretty sick of this "somebody do something" nonsense. The government has "failed you?" What the fuck should the government have done? And bear in mind before you answer that I'm expecting you to have at least a basic working knowledge of the Constitution of the United States and a grasp of the principles of federalism before you say something stupid like "Bush should have built bigger levies."
Wanna be mad at somebody? Be mad at God for sending the monster hurricane in the first place. Being mad at this nebulous thing called "the government" because it didn't do, I don't know, something is just plain stupid.
Merchandise sitting on shelves (and gas sitting in storage tanks!) does not magically cost the business 3x more.
No, but the merchandise they have to buy to replace that merchandise does.
If a business can't make enough on the merchandise on their shelves to purchase replacements, they go out of business.
Price controls are counter-productive.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
It really took slashdot long enough to latch onto this story. I was aware of this blog before the storm even hit, and it only continued to grow rapidly in popularity from there on in. I guess slashdot must be in league with FEMA as far as response time goes.
why was the evacuation order given only 24 hours in advance? why aren't there airlifts of food and water to people literally starving and dying of thirst? why did Bush wait two days to curtail his cozy vacation to respond to the crisis? why weren't buses used before the storm to bus out those without cars, the elderly, and the sick? why are the police looting and deserting their posts?
government has a role and a government that can't protect its citizens on basic issues of physical security and competence in the face of disaster is a government that doesn't deserve the consent of the governed.
sig my booty, check my website
About the fact that this was a relatively minor disaster that was experienced and this was how an entire country, the (arguably) richest in the world both in terms of economy and innovation was able to deal with it?
What if we had a larger disaster on our hands such as price/rarity of gas skyrocketing to the point where farmed goods can no longer be delivered in quantity to major metropolitain areas?
As far as the crime situation goes, I can "understand" the looting and mugging, but why the raping? What racial/moral justification is there for that?
I dropped my donation off at the Red Cross for a lack of anything better to do in order to help. My respect goes out to the people risking their ass to get aid to that place.
Maybe I sound tin foil hattish but prior to this hurricane footage, all i was really expecting to see post-hurricane was generic flood photos and cheesy clips of people grabbing TVs from shop windows, not stories of cops siphoning gas from cars for their patrol vehicles and stealing ammo from stores before other people do while "rape gangs" walk around.
Truly a sad day for the human race. Maybe we'll look back on how *we* behaved when we look at other countries and remark about how "uncivilized" they are in the future.
VOICE OF NARRATOR FROM SUPERFRIENDS
MEANWHILE, BACK AT ICANN HEADQUARTERS, THE ICANN STAFF DELIBERATES
MAN
When are we going to plan our next trip to an exotic city for another meeting?
WOMAN
Why does it have to be a exotic city? Can't it be an exotic village?
MAN
That's a good question. We should research this.
"The Interdictor" may just be the best job title in the history of time.
Look out honey cause I'm usin' technology
Ain't got time to make no apologies
>The government has "failed you?" What the fuck should the government have done?
Pretty simple. The government is to protect and serve the tax-payers/voters.
Its 4 days after the hurricane and there are a whole bunch of tax-payers/voters down south who need help.
I'm not exactly sure how the different levels of government didn't fail these people.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
They failed even before it happened:
..."
"..In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.
On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."
Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for.
Guess it's okay though, people still have those tax cuts he gave them.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Those of us who are members of the SomethingAwful.com forums have been following this blog for more than a day now because our servers are in the same building, I think the floor under the DirectNIC ones.
:(
We have a hurricane information channel going on zirc in #hurricane. This guy has pretty much been our hero.
Except our servers are down, now.
"Lead my skeptic sight."
Let's pretend that I own a gas station with a 10,000 gallons of capacity in my underground tanks.
Decision time.
Option one:
I keep the price of my gas at $1.25 until I run out. I lose no money because that gas is already bought and paid for. At the bottom of my tank I find that I have raked in $12,500 - before paying any other expenses such as insurance, electricity, employee salaries and benefits, taxes and so on. Figuring my two cent/gallon profit I have earned $200 for myself.
But wait! I now need to replace 10,000 gallons of gas which will now cost me $25,000. Even assuming I had free utilities, labor and overhead my last storage tank fillup would only allow me to buy 5,000 gallons of gas. A couple more price hikes and I'll be out of business and nobody will be able to buy gas from me because I'll be closed.
Option two:
I jack the prices up to match what I expect my next delivery will cost so I can keep the tanks full and stay in business. Unfortunately, no matter what I charge I'll never make more than two cents/gallon profit - and that doesn't count all of the people who feel entitled to rip me off because I'm "gouging". Or don't come in and buy my fountain drinks and candy bars which is where 80% of my profits come from.
Yes, I could refrain from "gouging" but a quick failure of the business is a definite certainty.
Anti-gouging laws are one of the sillier things ever supplied by pandering politicians to stupid, demanding citizens. During normal times I can charge $15,000 for a generator and nobody will care because they'll go to Home Depot and buy one for $700. I would be in violation of the law but nobody would care because nobody wants to buy generators. But when the disaster strikes and everybody sells out of $700 generators (which are covered with dust because they sat on the shelves for 2 1/2 years because nobody thought that the designation "hurricane zone" actually meant something") and they see my stock of $15,000 generators (covered in dust because in 10 years nobody except the government wanted to buy my generators at a price so far above market) and I would be the greatest villian in the history of mankind, even if I -lowered- my price from $15,000 to $14,000.
Then you have a shortage. In times of normalcy 100 people are willing to buy a generator at $700 and everybody who wants one gets one. In time of natural disaster 50,000 people want a generator at $700 and 49,999 people are SOL because the first person in line buys all of them then sells all 100 out of the back of his truck for $2,000 each. Just because the government says that generators are only worth $700 doesn't mean that that is what they will be sold for.
No, but it is what prevents our economy from looking like Cuba (no food is available), Russia (no heating fuel is available) or Canada (9 months of waiting for a mammogram).
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
Don't worry, even as we speak, the Democrats are throwing blame around and continuing with their asinine partisan politics even during a time of crisis... oh, you meant "our own" as in the human beings. Well, I hear Gore is on his way to preach the gospel of socialism.
I dont know, I always thought that is what a Libertarian society would look like. On second thought ... nah, not enough machine gun crossfire. The rescuers are not charging a fee before they lift you of the roof (remember, altruism = a Libertarian no-no). Warlords did not take charge of the high ground and critical infrastructure so far. Slave traders haven't made an appearance yet. So not quite "extreme Libertarian" yet. Let's call it, say, "moderately Libertarian". How is that?
This is why I think we need to take a deeper look at ourselves:
1: We knew Katrina was coming...
2: We knew it was big...really huge and as such, the damage would be enormous...
3: We knew that some residents would not beat the time required to vacate Louisiana, may be because of complacency or the traffic mess...
4: We had numbers of those who had managed to escape. We even knew where they were to be found...
5: We even knew the geography of New Orleans, so we could know where to go and how to get there...
6: We knew much more via satellites...since we take ourselves as being the most advanced country on earth...!
But...
1: There was 100% chaos in Louisiana...
2: ...because we seem to have been caught off guard...!
3: Dead bodies lying on the streets?
4: Desperate people walking in s**t?
5: Looting as if this is Somalia?
6: Despite all this, we have politicians ranting up their rhetoric...heck...folks are dying...all you hear is "we are doing all we can..." And this is AMERICA the great? Can some one tell me how a similar catastrophe would be any different in a third world country?
It is a source of great amazement to Europeans that when something goes wrong, Americans shoot each other and the rescue personel.
That building is one of the few sources of communication in and out of the city, and, from what I can see of the blog, they've been working to get up communication in other places, too.
This is a valuable service considering how the communication of many officials, even, is only through satallite phone. As far as I can tell, they ARE saving lives, albeit in a more indirect fashion.
Last time I checked there was 10 thousand+ NationalGuardsmen heading down there, and a small naval fleet including an aircraft carrier and a hospital ship. They've got thousands of buses taking peopel out, helicopters searching for more people, and God knows what else. Seems like a fairly ample government response to me. Quit this nonsense about government having failed us...it will take time to get everyone out, but it is getting done.
I'm more pissed off at the "citizens" of New Orleans that are running amock in lawlessness instead of sitting tight and waiting to be rescued. I've been reading about lootings, killing, rapes, and a bunch of other uncivilized bullshit. Just pisses me off...I don't know about the rest of you.
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
Hats off to you gentlemen.
I can only hope that our company's systems team would keep an armed vigil around our own data center.
We've had some minor water leaks and an accidental activation of the fire suppression system, but nothing compares to what you folks are going through. Kudos to you all.
I second that emotion. You wanna loot food after two days with no food or power? Fine. You wanna loot a plasma TV while babies are dying in the streets because of destroyed infrastructure? Two in the head. The Guard / Feds / Army should all roll in there with kid gloves on, whip out some bullhorns, and give the populace exactly one chance to rally together and start saving some fucking lives. After that, any armed civilians should be given one warning to disarm and pick up a shovel. They say no? Two in the head. Refuse to dig in and help? Two in the ass. Take a shot at the Guard or a rescue chopper? Two in the gut and let them roll around in water that's been filtered through a few hundred dead bodies. Infection and the sun will take them in a day or so, and they'll suffer like they deserve.
Oh, and the fuckers roaming the Dome and raping girls in dark corners? Two in the thighs to shatter bones, one in the gut to promote pain and infection, and a gun butt to the face while they're still conscious, just to let them know why they're being removed from the gene pool.
This is America, but if you want to act like it's Haiti then we'll play by Haiti rules.
(And for all you internet "anarchists" out there, I hope you're on the next bus to NOLA. This is what you wanted, right? They'll just looooooove to see you.)
I'm pretty sick of this "somebody do something" nonsense. The government has "failed you?" What the fuck should the government have done? And bear in mind before you answer that I'm expecting you to have at least a basic working knowledge of the Constitution of the United States and a grasp of the principles of federalism before you say something stupid like "Bush should have built bigger levies."
What Bush should've done was to undo the tax cuts he gave as the federal defecit grew instead of cutting funding for projects such as maintaining the levees.
Wanna be mad at somebody? Be mad at God for sending the monster hurricane in the first place. Being mad at this nebulous thing called "the government" because it didn't do, I don't know, something is just plain stupid.
Right, like these monster hurricanes have never happened before. If a government doesn't serve it's people it serves no purpose at all.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Sorry if redundant:
u isiana_Radio_Communications_%20Audio_Live_Feeds
http://wiki.nola-intel.com/index.php/Main_Page#Lo
Live audio feeds, webcasts, IRC channels and blogs.
> I dont know, I always thought that is what a Libertarian society would look like. On second thought
Alas, all the true Libertarians moved to the Somalian paradise, so only half-hearted Libertarians remain in New Orleans.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
You're probably (hopefully) right.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Yeah, instead you just have no power (Enron).
no food, no water, no communication, and no signs of help are heartbreaking and a true tragedy
That would be "no food or water" other than the tons and tons that are being flown and driven in every hour? I'm watching an interview right now with people sitting on top of an overpass eating military MREs (meals-ready-to-eat, as consumed in the thousands by our troops every day) that were just dropped off by a Navy chopper. Their response? That the food is "impossible to eat" since it's cold. Incredible.
No communication or signs of help? They've been flying people out for days now, and bussing thousands to Texas and elsewhere. There are thousands and thousands more to go, and it's not helping that people near hospitals are shooting at and near helicopters and convoys as they try to come in. What the hell sort of wanting help is that?
our government has failed us
By which you mean the City Of New Orleans? They are the ones that have zoned that city so that all of those thousands of people are living below sea level in an area that is guaranteed to be periodically hit by hurricanes. And you make it sound like New Orleans is the only place needing help... 90,000 square miles have been clobbered by this storm, and whole towns in Mississippi and Alabama are completely wrecked, too.
Why the city government in New Orleans has never recommended to people living there, as they watch - for days - a giant hurricane approaching, to do things like put aside drinkable water and several days worth of food... amazing. Or, is it that that advice has been shouted continually, and even louder every hurricane season, and that tens of thousands of people decided they didn't need to be personally accountable for their own food and water for a few days? "The government" didn't fail, here - they're spending $500 million per day scrambling to respond to a multi-state calamity. The failure was at the local level, where individual people weren't prepared.
I don't mean to trivialize the rapid rise of water that led to a lot of people losing their residences. But that's exactly what was predicted in advance, and even at a slow walk, thousands of the able-bodied people that I'm seeing trash stores and mill around shouting at the people trying to help - they could have strolled all the way out of town before the weather and water even hit. If the only people that needed rescue were those that couldn't physically take care of themselves, and didn't have the ability to fill water jugs or put aside some canned food while watching the news all weekend - then there wouldn't be nearly so much trouble right now.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Oooh! Yes! Let's play pretend!
Pretend that gas supply gets cut... oh, lets say 10% and you'll have to pay... oh, say 150% more than the $1 you used to pay, ok? So what do you do, raise prices 150%? 300%? 1000%?
Unfortunately, no matter what I charge I'll never make more than two cents/gallon profit
Huh? You mean the station across the street isn't going to race you to 1000%? If only the world was as magnanimous as you were, kind sir. Oh right! Someone would magically show up and undercut you, forcing you to lower prices! Just as soon as they finished buying some land, digging holes in the ground, installing some tanks and pumps and hiring people to run the place (and since we're pretending that we live in libertarian heaven, I left out the whole government thing with the permits and inspections and what not).
If the anti-gouging laws are keeping you from covering your costs and making a profit, they are broken in every sense of the word. If they are keeping you from putting 90 of your generators in the back room, putting up a big sign and selling the "last 10 generators in the city" for $10,000 each, then they're doing their job admirably.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Most likely because
1) Hurricanes of that magnitude are known to shift directions quickly and they weren't sure it was really going to hit near NO till then.
2) If the hurricane wasn't really going to land there, moving that many people is a major disruption in peoples lives, commerce, and leaves areas open for looters
3) If you know you live in a place below sea level, next to the ocean, and a class 5 hurricane is coming towards you, you should be fucking smart enough to know to leave without someone having to 'order' it. Darwin rules.
Way to tell something half-assed. Even if the money was there a year ago(or even 2) the type of construction neccessary to stop this kind of flooding wouldn't be done for another couple of years. Think logically and not politically.
> Last time I checked there was 10 thousand+ NationalGuardsmen heading down there
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Your scenario sounds wonderful until you consider a situation where the price of fuel DROPS. Tell me, do you immediately start charging the current "market price" even though you paid more than that for the fuel (resulting in a loss at each sale)? Do you choose "option 1" or "option 2" depending upon whether it makes you money, or do you stick to a set of rules and remain ethical...
That's in interestingly warped view of libertarianism you have there. Actually, it's Objectivists who object to "altruism" (although it's not clear to me that what they mean by "altruism" would necessarily include fee-free lifts off of roofs during an emergency situation). Now, while there is some overlap between Objectivists and libertarians, it is by no means true that all libertarians are Objectivists (or that all Objectivists are libertarians, or even that all Objectivists object to "altruism").
Uh, yeah. Property's the priority. Meanwhile, thugs shooting at emergency workers are preventing people from being saved. People are dying because of those guns - probably in large numbers. You think guns would have helped in the tsunami too?
You're right about the government though. As far as I can tell, their "plan" was leave everyone to look out for themselves. This wild west attitude of every man for himself isn't the solution, it's the problem.
There isn't a binary choice between complete dependence and complete independence. It is possible to make community plans which actually involve people with the plan, so that when the structure breaks down they can look out for themselves and each other. A disaster is still a disaster, and there will be thugs in its wake, but there has to be a better way.
Heaven help us when the quake hits Vancouver.
Why should everybody else in America have to pay to pump out a city that is below sea level? Save the people, to hell with the city.
At least this gives everybody something to bitch about for the next few days before we can get back to Iraq.
> why did Bush wait two days to curtail his cozy vacation to respond to the crisis?
He had a story about a goat that he wanted to finish.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Best of luck, we're all with you. Hope his blog doesn't die under the pressure. I don't know how LiveJournal puts up with a Slashdotting, but let's give it a post-hurricane traffic and a Slashdotting at the same time!
Nobody's clean on this one. The government screwed it up... there should have been buses for evac *before* the storm hit, there should have been much more security in the Superdome, and the National Guard response, frankly, it pretty damn slow.
That said, the people are losing my sympathy more and more every day. If you can't keep together as a civilization in a couple of days, you don't deserve what our country offers. It's just pathetic.
Comment of the year
Cajun porn.
Thank you for understanding this. I was really hoping I wasnt the only one, and seeing no responses to the above post had me worried.
It is so hard to keep track of the far out wacko social theories. But I would posit that vast majority of Libertarians I run into so far would be of the, as you defined it, objectivist-libertarian-selfish-ass type, and of the I-am-too-sexy-for-my-shit class and the gimme-gimme-screw-everyone-else sub-variety. But I will concede that potential other viarieties of that species of loon exist, I heard a rumour that there is even an extra-rare and endangered species of "Lefty" Libertarian, although I cannot fathom how that could possibly work.
please. get a dose of reality. he *is* supporting the government/military/Red Cross. he's supporting a data backbone, for christ's sake. have you actually read the damn blog? they're wading through the water setting up links to the city hall. they're coordinating between deisel runs, city hall, and the police force to make sure that people can keep in contact with the outside! do you know what the hell an OC3 even is? for christs sake, get a grip on reality and get over yourself.
he's getting fuel runs because the police precincts are *abandoned*, and his office *isn't*. he's getting fuel runs because his infrastucture is *still intact*. the police and military are helping *him*, because he's got his shit together and is keeping data trunk lines running.
and just for the record, blogging, as a one-to-many means of communication, is the most efficient way that these folks are able to communicate to everybody else. they don't have time to sift through emails and make phone calls, so they're using their blogs as a broadcasting mechanism.
God, I hate self-possessed tards who don't appreciate the work that other people do, and don't know what an OC3 or a metro-area disaster recovery plan is.
for someone with such a low UserID and who, apparently, has been around here for a long time, I'm surprised that you don't understand the importance of keeping telephone lines up in emergency situations.
To any moderators reading, please mod parent post as Troll.
Speaking as a libertarian (of the minarchist/classical liberal variety, NOT of the anarcho-capitalist kind), part of the government's responsibility is protecting its citizens. Protection can take many forms, such as protecting its citizens from outside threats, from criminals, and (in this case) recovering from natural disasters.
In this case, the local, state, and federal governments should have done much more in order to properly evacuate, house, and feed and hydrate these now displaced citizens. No, we don't need to give them all plane tickets to wherever in the US, give them fancy meals, and build them all $500,000 two-story homes with a nice new car waiting for them in their garages. However, many people, especially the poor who weren't able to drive or fly out of there, are now stuck in this virtual ocean city with no food, no water, no shelter, and possibly no future, depending on how far they are in that bus line. There are elderly people and even babies dying of dehydration.
The government's job is to protect its citizens. Giving these people food, water, shelter, and a bus ride isn't socialism or communism at all. This isn't about socialized health care, income redistribution, or all of that other stuff that us libertarians are usually against. Between local, state, and federal levels, they should have enough food reserves and money to help out these people. These people desperately need some help. I may be one of those right-wingers and I may be individualistic, but even I believe that these levels of government need to join forces with private charity (which I fully support) and help feed and evacuate all of these citizens.
interdictor map.
I've only got a little on there now, but will add more (like other flood lines, etc) if people send me email with coordinates to gmap AT danREMOVEshockley.com
I've got a simple click-to-find-coordinates map at:
Test Map Coords
Lose essential liberties to get temporary safety = get only hassles and security theater.
Probably because hurricanes don't always go where you expected them to go, several days earlier... And false-positives serve to make people ignore all warnings in the future.
Do you really believe the president makes that big of a difference? Him cutting his vacation short is just a show for the public. This actually worked out nicely for him, because it gets the news media off of the protesters and gives him some OTHER excuse to give-up on his PR disaster of a vacation.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
On one hand, there had been two previous hurricanes that caused evac orders to be issued. And those missed.
On the other hand, you're putting your life in your hands with that decision.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
If you lost touch with family due to Katrina, please visit:
http://www.survivorregistry.com/
Katrina survivors can leave messages for family, plus we link to several other lost and found sites.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
"If we rebuild, it *will* happen again. And then what? We pay to have it rebuilt again? If the city was next to an active volcano, would you be saying we should rebuild it?"*
I think that people are also forgetting the condition of the wetlands. Anyway if you look at a map? New Orleans should have been built on the other side of the lake.
*If you accept the premise that there's no place that's safe from some kind of natural disaster? Then there would be no cities. Build in tornado ally? Blown away. Rebuild? Build in California were you can have your pick of, earthquake, fire, mudslide. Disaster! Rebuild? Even the Northeast. Icestorms, and lightning. Rebuild? The Midwest. Droughts! Rebuild?
They're MY GOD DAMN GENERATORS! I should be allowed to sell them for whatever people are willing to pay. NO ONE has a gun put to their head and is made to purchase.
Why should I be punished for forethought and good marketing????
Unfortunately - your post probably wont see the light of day. But you are one hundred percent correct. Don't have mod points - so all I can do is agree rather than mod you up and that ill informed post down.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
From what I've been told while in Haiti, they wouldn't be quite so generous. :)
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a pair of AC-130's on "looter patrol". Once word gets around that TV's and 105mm holes are closely related, I'm sure the deadbeats will find something more productive to occupy their time.
Way to tell something half-assed. Even if the money was there a year ago(or even 2) the type of construction neccessary to stop this kind of flooding wouldn't be done for another couple of years. Think logically and not politically.
Political, schomitcal. What we're talking about here is foresight and planning which are qualities severly lacking in our government today. Do you want to know what the cause of all the looting that is taking place there right now? It's anger. Those people were left there with no way to get out and no way to get help.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Do you know how hard it is to find a fiddle on such short notice?
Did all news, international issues, and events the impact international association, which if gone bad can cause wars, just dissapear during the several days that the hurricane passed New Orleans?
Ofcourse it is important, and the destruction and the deaths and so on and so on... But I have yet to see anything on the news besides this...
Slashdot is our only salvation from the dying and exponentionally more worthless news media...
Like New Orleans is the only city that was slacking off on disaster prevention. Remember the San Francisco earthquake in 1989? The one that collapsed that 2-story highway trestle that ran through the city? Well, Seattle Washington, also in an earthquake-prone area, has a trestle *identical* to the one in California. And now that we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the structure can't withstand an earthquake, what has Seattle done? Well, in 15 years they've... hmm... they've done about NOTHING. It's not torn down, it's not even closed. They braced about 5-6 supports with steel, then a few more after the 2001 quake, but nowhere near the entire structure is braced. They still allow cheap parking underneath it.
The real problem is that governments move too slowly to get things done until it's too late. And, what do you know? My corporation works the same way... we usually slack off on replacing old hardware until it actually fails, at which point you can talk management into paying for new hardware which we install at 5 times the cost it would have been if we'd replaced it before it failed in the first place.
Comment of the year
New Orleanes Registrar vs. Katrina.
DirectNIC.com, a registrar and host which is based in New Orleans, evacuated the majority of their personnel. The skeleton staff that remained spent a great deal of effort battling broken windows, incoming water, and flying debris, from their high-rise office and data center. Their hosting and registration services remained online and worked flawlessly however they are currently running on a back-up diesel generator. From their website "Please understand that with the aforementioned power outage, and the fact that travelling to and from our offices (on the 11th floor) is somewhat restricted, responses to customer support issues might take a little longer than normal to be addressed...You've heard of 'bullet-proof hosting'? directNIC.com is now proudly able to prove that their services are literally 'hurricane-proof'."
Their blog and photos of this event were featured on CNN.
I had submitted this almost 36 hours ago.Libertas in infinitum
I dunno, I'd be glad that the criminals occupying themselves with property aren't doing some other criminal activity. Stealing is a better outlet for criminal behavior than raping or killing.
"But that's exactly what was predicted in advance, and even at a slow walk, thousands of the able-bodied people that I'm seeing trash stores and mill around shouting at the people trying to help - they could have strolled all the way out of town before the weather and water even hit."
To where?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/36111 .html?thread=437263#t437263/
For those curious about the center. I have been there and have two servers running there. They are on the 10th floor of a big building in the heart of N.O. It is a very nice center actually built by Enron a few years back. There is a 750KW generator with a HUGE tank of fuel (supposedly enough for 7 days.) There are a couple of techs at the location that bravely stayed for the storm. One of which is Brian Acosta, who is working NON STOP (nothing unusual for this uberman) to keep this center up.
There have been many comments made on the blog about WHY this is so important to "keep a few webpages online" posted by some ignorant people. This Data Center represnts a large communications link for N.O. and other parts of Southeast Louisiana. They provide data services to New Orleans city hall, phone services to hospitals, banks, and several other very large businesses. If this Data Center goes down part of the communications structure of New Orleans is lost, as well as jeprodizing the lives of the people in the hospital, and the millions of dollars that will be lost by the businesses in NO and the surrounding areas that depoend on the services from that location(which translates inot lost jobs and worsening of the overall economy).
My hats are off to these brave men. This is the kind of thing this country needs more of!
Some historical background - "everyone" knew the hurricane with New Orleans written on it was coming:
October 2004 National Geographic Article about New Orleans getting whacked ... btw this site has been Drudged as opposed to Slashdot'd
October 2001 Scientific American article about New Orleans getting whacked
Informed discussion over at Belmont Club Blog
An obscure blog describes the hurricane's impact on YOU in Anywhere USA before the hurrican ever made landfall:
Perhaps this all means we can look forward to the next MikeMoore film proving that the "Bush Hitler Haliburton Rove Puppet Yale C Student Same As John Kerry" caused the hurricane.I believe Juanita
Several hundred megabytes of pictures from the disaster zone have been mirrored to:
/. away. Sits atop four GigE, and a load balanced www cluster.
http://www.nerdshack.com/katrina/
Yeah, on Sat when they were predicting a possible direct Category 5 strike directly on New Orleans I would have assumed that the federal government would be mobilizing the troops (literally and figurativly). For instance we sent in ships to act as desalination plants in the wake of the tsunami last winter but it took till 3 days after the hurricane for the aircraft carrier to leave New York. IMHO it should have been stationed at a southern port along the Atlantic ready to raise anchor as soon as the danger had passed. Taking over half the time that it takes for people to die of thirst to even freaking start heading towards them is just assanine! I think the scariest thing about this whole thing is that it shows how absolutly uprepared we are as a nation even after we have plowed billions and billions into disaster preperation under the banner of homeland security. If we can't deal with a natural disaster how can we possibly deal with the worst that a well funded and intelligent group of humans can do?
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
But according to you, why bother trying to save lives when we should be drumming up support for the war in Iraq.
... women and minorites hardest hit.
BLAME BUSH! and his evil imperialistic neocronies! It's all their fault!
Won't somebody please think of the children! They don't know that they are supposed to hate Bush for this!
Now that you agree with me, let me say that FEMA and the NOPD are two of the most notoriously inept and corrupt government organizations ever to pose as providing a vital service worth having. Not quite up to the standards of ineptitude created and maintained by the UN, but what the hey.
You seem to fervently believe that Bush was smiling and playing the guitar as he watched corpses floating in the flood waters. That is not true. (Would you prefer that the Commander-in-Chief, President of the greatest nation on Earth begin paddling a canoe around Bourbon street? I suppose he should also be manning a firehose whenever there's a fire, or unloading supplies off of a C-130. Yeah, no way that anybody else could do those things better than him, huh?)
You're sick, pal. You need help. Not just because you have bizarre fantasies, but because of your unhealthy desire to have those sick fantasies be accepted as truth.
Maybe Cindy Sheehan's handlers don't care enough about her to get her the psychiatric help she needs (too busy exploiting her psychosis for their political ends, I guess), but I'm willing to bet that you have family and friends that really do care and that they want to see you healthy. Good luck.
This is NOT libertarianism!
THIS IS ANARCHY in the city! NOTHING LESS.
ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!
According to http://www.m-w.com/ Anarachy:
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
Libertarianism involves a civilized society. I am sure you can Google to find lots of books and essays on the subject. But a few requirements for libertarianism:
- LIMITED government (not non-existant)
- free markets
- personal responsibility
- individual freedoms
The main philosophy behind libertarianism is 'your rights go so far until they impede on other people's rights"
DO NOT spread misinformation like this; it is iresponsible, and ignorant!
Libertas in infinitum
I would be in violation of the law but nobody would care. . .
No, you wouldn't be, because nobody would care. Normally what price you ask for generators is entirely up to you, just so long as you pay the applicable taxes on any sales you do manage to make.
And yet the price that Home Depot decides to charge for a generator is determined in exactly the same manner as "price gouging" prices are.
A)What do we have to pay to get another one? B)What can we sell the one we have for?
Make A as small as possible, make B as large as possible. Sometimes making B larger actually results in more sales (see the argument that people don't use free software because it's free).
The last time we had a generator shortage near me I had a truck sitting empty and local stores full of generators, but I could not move those generators to the people who needed them because I would have gone broke at the emergency price caps. It costs more to move emergency goods and the cost of moving goods is part of the perfectly legitimate price of those goods.
So people with money that was doing them no good under the circumstances, because they couldn't spend it on the things they needed, frickin' froze, some of them to death.
But hey, at least they died on a pile of cash, eh?
KFG
No, but it is what prevents our economy from looking like Cuba (no food is available), Russia (no heating fuel is available) or Canada (9 months of waiting for a mammogram).
And we are better how?
Health Care
40 million plus cannot afford it
Many more cant afford enough to cover all their expenses and are often driven into bankruptcy
We spend more than any other country for our healthcare (14% of GDP), the only thing we can show for it is you will get care when you want it if you can afford it.
Work
Many of us work 60+ hour work weeks. Some by choice my most not. This also drives up health care to due to stress related illnesses
Skilled labor is outsourced if possible leaving low paying service jobs open to those looking for work.
Money
Growing poverty rate
Push to personal and private sector retirement savings while encouraging spending and spending into debt to "stimulate the economy"
Most of the spending goes into what can provide short term changes (subsides to lower prices) rather than long term planning to a greater cost down the road (katrina)
Free market benefits the top 5-10 percent of the population. While the middle 60 percent MIGHT make it through alright, the rest get screwed. To have winners you need to have losers.
My bias, I'm definetly not a communist, but I'm not a free market hawk either. Some sectors should not be privatized (healthcare) and the other sectors should have legislation to keep the market in check.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte%2C_Montana The history of butte Montana his a good example of capitalism gone wrong.
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
Several hundred megabytes of pictures from sigmund.biz, taken in the disaster zone by Mike and his team at DirectNIC have been mirrored to:
/. away. Sits atop four GigE, and a load balanced www cluster. If anyone else needs a mirror of Katrina content, let us know.
http://www.nerdshack.com/katrina/
No need for "ethics". The price drop will be governed by what the market will bear. If your competitors start trying to take your business by lowering their prices, then you will have to as well. The "problem" you are suggesting doesn't exist except in the minds of people who think they are continually being screwed or that haven't taken a basic economics course.
Supply and demand regulates things quite nicely if allowed to. Price controls prevent necessary corrections from taking place (eg: people should be conserving gas at the moment, but instead they are draining all the stations. This is because the stations are not allowed to raise prices to levels that will reduce demand to only what people truly require).
You forgot to mention that price increases are the rewards of undertaking risk. Given that generators are $700, and there's only a 1 in a 100 chance of a hurricane hitting my area and necessitating the use of generators.
If I buy 100 generators, for $700,000, and warehouse them in such a way that they'll be accessible in time of need, I should be able to sell them during such an emergency for at least 100 times what I paid for them--because there's a 99% chance that I'll lose my entire investment. For me to undertake such a risk, I must have the ability to offset that risk in an unusual event.
If this was legal, enterprising folks might indeed warehouse such supplies--which would mean that they would be available in times of need such as this (albeit at inflated prices--still, that would be better than none at all.) As it is, I don't have a warehouse of generators in my area, as it's unlikely that a hurricane will hit here, so unlikely that I would rather put my money in something that has a better return to risk ratio.
--
$tar -xvf
This will be my least contributory /. post, but since I have no mod points... Subject says it all.
If Star Trek had the internet: Captain, we've received an IM from the romulans. "Surrender or be destroyed. LOL. o.O"
Don't worry, even as we speak, both our major political parties and their supporters are busy shitting on each other more then being terribly concerned with actually doing anything effective, even during a time of crisis... oh, you meant "our own" as in human beings. Well, as long as red vs. blue political supporters are involved we're pretty much SOL.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
To where?
It's 90+ degrees. No one is going to freeze to death camping out in any area just like the bridges, overpasses, and rooftops they're spending their days on now. Even just a few miles inland, the impact of the storm was greatly reduced. Believe me, I wouldn't have wanted to spend the day out in that storm, or hanging out in some parking garage outside of town... but the storm damage, per se, in town on Monday was pretty negligible. The mess we're seeing now (the stranding results of the rising water, and resulting difficulting in getting people connected with transportation, food, and water) took another 24+ hours to really manifest itself. How far uphill can you walk in 24 hours? In 8 hours? On pavement, most people can make it an easy 15 miles. That would get you well past the standing water area, and immediately able to get picked up by evac busses.
At the very least, the people who seem to be having the energy to hijack ambulances to steal narcotics, or to rape women in corners of the Superdome, or to carry looted merchandise through blocks of waist-deep water - there's enough energy there to just freakin' hoof it out of town. And that's before you get hungry because you were too shortsighted to set aside a few $0.59 cans of beans.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
http://www.findkatrina.net/
Has just what I had mind. Whew, at least I won't have to stay up building it. Good work. =)
The president take time off of vacation to play guitar in a jovial mood while the nation faces the worst natural disaster in history? Congress talks about ending their recess early? Glad that the feds are looking out for the thousands dead and dying in the big easy!
Check out some sad reports I've read today.
--
FROM CNN:
FEMA chief: Victims bear some responsibility
Brown pleased with effort: 'Things are going relatively well'
Friday, September 2, 2005 Posted: 0341 GMT (1141 HKT)
(CNN) -- The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.
Michael Brown also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands.
"Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.
"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," he said.
"And to find people still there is just heart-wrenching to me because, you know, the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there.
"So, we've got to figure out some way to convince people that whenever warnings go out it's for their own good," Brown said. "Now, I don't want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them."
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin have both predicted the death toll could be in the thousands.
Nagin issued a "desperate SOS" Thursday as violence disrupted efforts to rescue people still trapped in the flooded city and evacuate thousands of displaced residents living amid corpses and human waste. (Full story)
Residents expressed growing frustration with the disorder evident on the streets, raising questions about the coordination and timeliness of relief efforts. (See video on the desperate conditions -- 4:36 )
Sniper fire prevented Charity Hospital from evacuating its patients Thursday. The hospital has no electricity or water, food consists of a few cans of vegetables, and the patients had to be moved to upper floors because of looters. (Full story) (See video of a city sinking in chaos -- 2:54)
Brown was upbeat in his assessment of the relief effort so far, ticking off a list of accomplishments: more than 30,000 National Guard troops will be in the city within three days, the hospitals are being evacuated and search and rescue missions are continuing. (See video of National Guard efforts to rein in violence -- 3:14)
"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans -- virtually a city that has been destroyed -- that things are going relatively well," Brown said.
Nevertheless, he said he could "empathize with those in miserable conditions."
Asked later on CNN how he could blame the victims, many of whom could not flee the storm because they had no transportation or were too frail to evacuate on their own, Brown said he was not blaming anyone.
"Now is not the time to be blaming," Brown said. "Now is the time to recognize that whether they chose to evacuate or chose not to evacuate, we have to help them."
Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, whose father was a longtime New Orleans mayor, said there was "plenty of blame to go around," citing underinvestement by federal authorities over many years "despite pleas and warnings by officials."
Earlier on CNN, Brown was asked why authorities had not prepared for just such a catastrophe -- given that the levees were designed to withstand only a Category 3 hurricane and Katrina was stronger than that.
"Government officials and engineers will debate that and figure that out," he replied. "Right now, I'm trying to focus on saving lives. I think we should have that debate
zosxavius photography
Well, you might want to consider, too, the effects of not having a huge overpowerful country sitting beside you and being as annoying as it can because it does not like the way you at some point decided you wanted to be organized. You could really look into history to see where did the heating fuel actually go in Russia, and you could ask the average Canadian how much the idea of going under the auspices of the USian health system looks to him.
Hmm. Or you could simply look out of the little box you are in...
I have made a mirror for his images since his server is unresponsive at times due to the heavy load. http://gallery.bdubois.com/
God, I hate self-possessed tards who don't appreciate the work that other people do, and don't know what an OC3 or a metro-area disaster recovery plan is.
.45ACP ammo is not going to make a real difference.
Jackass, I was bringing up OC3s when you were playing Xbox with your buddies after junior high let out.
As for your "metro area recovery plan", the best plan is to GET THE HELL OUT OF TOWN. These people are NON-ESSENTIAL. Bell South is plenty capable of bringing commo to City Hall without help from these guys. By remaining in their office, they are putting themselves at risk and, potential, soldier/police officer lives at risk when they need to be rescued.
for someone with such a low UserID and who, apparently, has been around here for a long time, I'm surprised that you don't understand the importance of keeping telephone lines up in emergency situations.
Again, leave this to the pros (Bell South). Two guys in an office building with some clean underwear and
You have a very warped and unfactual view of libretarian theory.
A libretarian view is that the private sector does most things better than the government does (with the exeception of military and police). The government should stay out of these areas and let the private sector take care of them, since the private sector does things more efficently, more cheaply, and over all better than the government does.
Altrusim in not a libretarian no-no. I don't know where you pulled that bullshit from. In fact, libretarians encourage it and believe that private charities work better than state-sponsored welfare programs. (Because, well, they do). These are funded by altruism.
A libretarian believes in a limited government - a government that stays out of people's private lives (so long as they're not harming other people) and that stays out of the market place, because free markets function best.
For more information on Libretarian views, visit http://www.cato.org/.
What is happening in New Orleans (with regard to the looting) is pure anarchy - it reminds me of what Hobbes said the state of nature would look like...
Instead airlines bailed out while conditions were still good for flying, stranding their customers and countless others and Amtrak did the same.
If I were in charge here is what I would do:
1) Declare marshall law; put the military in charge
2) Drop paratroopers to secure sites for coming supply drops
3) Do air drops of food and medical supplies (water too)
4) Send in the SEALS with their dingy boats to begin to rescue people/pick off snipers/gangs
5) Send in forward air controllers and ham radio operators- by parachute if needed. I would include military medics as well.
6) Commondere every single bus in the state of Texas, LA, MS, AL and AR and move into the city heavily fortified by military support
7) Use 2 aircraft carriers, park them as close to the city as possible. AC#1 gets used as military command and HQ. AC#2 is used to put evacuaees aboard for food/shelter. If AC#2 isn't available commondere a cruise ship and use it.
Asking for British, Canadian, and Mexican forces to lend a hand is a good idea as well. This might mean major withdrawl from Iraq which would worsen the situation over there but free up resources here. However when faced with helping fellow Americans or keeping the stability of a foreign country (which is close to being on its own feet anyway) I would personally choose American lives over Iraqis.
Drastic times call for drastic measures.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE for the current situation and a severe leadership AND communication void exists. This scenerio is NOT being managed in the right way and once this is over I want to see several independent and congressional studies as to what the breakdown was.
As of noon, the media had more information about happinings inside the city than the FEMA director did! He didn't even know about the situation near the convention center until the media told him. It appears the media is closer and better informed of this situation than is the government. The CIA often uses the media as secondary source of intelligence. Most of the time I would disagree, but in this instance I would suggest that the authorities follow that lead and begin to pay attention to the media outlets as it appears they are able to get information in and out.
DISCLAIMER:
I realize I am not in charge and being a Monday morning/arm chair quarterback is not accomplishing anything but I feel the need to share my thoughts and vent nonetheless.
Feel free to post your input/comments. If you disagree with me that is fine but please be polite about it or I won't respond to your post.
Libertas in infinitum
And people who expect their government to "protect its citizens on basic issues of physical security and competence" end up with the government they deserve.
If people would learn to wipe their own asses without government assistance, maybe they wouldn't be stuck without any resources. If you live in a river delta, below sea-level, you should have emergency stores on hand for this kind of problem. If you don't, don't expect your sugar-daddy^Wgovernment to rescue you.
Yes. This was a huge storm. Yes. The loss of life is catastrophic. No! The government shouldn't be prepared to save every taxpayer (and tax spender, er, welfare recipient) from any possible trouble.
The government doesn't, and shouldn't, have an obligation to protect the well-being, let alone property, of any individual. If you think otherwise, you really need to do a little research.
This comment may sound harsh at first, but keep in mind that in a war zone (which this has definitely become), criminal rights are an unaffordable luxury. The reason such rights don't exist in undeveloped countries is because limited resources must go very far. The police cannot spend time locking up the same criminals over and over. It's all they can do to preserve any resemblance of order. In this case, there is no jail to put them in. Anyone causing a problem should be warned if possible, and if they don't cooperate then appropriate force must be used.
Wired has an article about DirectNIC and their sister company here:? tw=wn_tophead_1
http://wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,68725,00.html
Libertas in infinitum
I don't think you understand the word libertarian. Libertarianism != anarchy (complete lack of rule). Libertarians don't believe in raiding high ground or infrastructure, and they don't believe in slavery (they believe it is a violation of one's freedom; remember, libertarianism has the philosophy of freedom and of non-coercion). And many libertarians have the heart to rescue innocent people for no charge.
I don't know what you've been taught about libertarianism, but somebody must have taught you that all libertarians are cold, apathetic, greedy, and selfish individuals. That's not true. Many libertarians support helping others, and many libertarians are filling the government's shoes and helping donate to Red Cross and other organizations. (Libertarians love private charity). I wish that the local, state, and federal governments (especially the local and state governments) had a more active role in providing these citizens food and water. It doesn't help to be in a huge shelter if you're going to die of dehydration. (And, yes, I'm a libertarian. Whaddo'ya know, a Libertarian who supports pinko commie ideas like giving food and water to displaced citizens. Who would've thought....) What you are seeing in the streets of New Orleans isn't representative of libertarianism at all. You're seeing almost pure anarchy.
This is flat out not true. I speak not from second-hand accounts, but from many hours walking the streets of Havana. As a sidenote, Havana is far and away the safest major city I've ever seen, and I've seen many.
This sounds like hearsay, or Internet rumors. Polls show that a vast majority of Canadians prefer their own health system to that of the US, and when the subject comes up in conversation with my Canadian friends, they express their deepest sympathy for us and the health system we have.
What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
The projects being discussed here are annual maintenance and emergency repair projects, not grandiose multiyear construction projects.
Its hard to say if the funding hadn't been gutted by the Bush administration it would have made a difference, but I'd sure like someone to investigate.
Levees are a place where "a stitch in time" is an appropriate axiom. If there was a low spot due to sinkage and you get a flood that weak spot leads to water spilling over which quickly washes out a whole section. That looks like what happened in New Orleans.
Chance are if someone had gone around and identified low spots due to sinkage and piled a few feet of dirt or concrete on them they would have held. I don't think a multibillion dollar multiyear project was required to prevent this, just good maintenance and some simple repair work. Maybe it wouldn't have happened anyway but cutting 80% of the funding, which is what the Bush administration did, certainly seriously degraded levee maintenance here.
@de_machina
the mayor of new orleans and the governor of Louisiana who
have direct control and authority over the police forces,
national guard and all other government agencies. Instead
of your not so veiled stab at Bush why don't you ask those
who were responsible for their citizens well being why they
didn't have or ask for these resources? Bush declared a 3
state disaster area before the storm hit. They had at least
48 hours warning and could have gotten a lot had they opened
their mouth.
And don't forget the zone is more than the same camera crews
outside of the superdome or on a hiway overpass. It is
90,000 square miles of complete anhilation.
Disaster stockpiles don't seem to have been in place in New Orleans, even for the cheap stuff. A shipping container of water purification tablets would have been a huge help. Nobody seems to have thought to equip the Superdome, the designated disaster assembly point, with some basic water purification gear.
Congress and the voters need to ask some hard questions about where all that money goes and whether it's being spent properly.
If you tell people that you have the last 10 and you actually have 10 + 90 hidden in the back, you are lying and probably demanding an unfair price for something someone may need to survive during a disaster. Doing it during a disaster is even more heinous.
What I can't believe is that officials couldn't evacuate the prisoners in a New Orleans correctional facility, so they just let them out.
When ordinary people are stealing shit and shooting at rescue helicopters mostly because they can, what the fuck do you expect convicts to do? Save kittens?
I'd like to nominate you for head of both Homeland Security and FEMA. Where can I send my campaign contributions?
everything in moderation
...while the others would rather soak the bastards for their rescue...
Many libertarians support helping others
...while the others say "screw 'em all!"
and many libertarians are filling the government's shoes and helping donate to Red Cross and other organizations
...while the others sit back in their comfy, non-hurricane-destroyed homes and tut-tut the "appaling behaviour of all those savages raping and pillaging"
You are right btw.. I'm not disagreeing with you..
Additionally.. why is that some peoples first instinct in a major crisis is to turn into snipers? Why do people think it's better to go anarchy rather than help out?
Maybe it's just me and the sheltered life I've lived (sic, sort of).. but my first instinct was to go help in some way. Not just donate money (which is noble, better than doing nothing, but easier than doing a quality something IMO), but actually try to get there and lend a hand in any way possible.
It's beyond my ability to comprehend the need to go snipe at rescue copters who are doing nothing but to aid those in need. This $hit didn't happen after 9/11.. this $hit didn't happen after any of the dozen+ times Florida has been demolished and rebuilt.. etc.
Part of me still wants to go help (not that I could - the only real help Red Cross is asking for are $$), but part of me think that if this is how lower class poor people (it's not a race thing - it's a quality of life thing) react to adversity WHEN PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO HELP [as best to their ability] then they should be given one big collective finger.
i'm not trying to be a troll.. I really do care about the people and their welfare there. I'm just so sick and frustrated at what looks like a highly publicized chicken w/ its head cut off. People are doing their best to DO SOMETHING to help.. other people are doing their best to f*ck up their efforts (god knows for what reason).. other people are just useless and have no clue what to do and can't think of what else to do but breakdown and panic.. and through all of this just about everyone is becoming more and more helpless.
Don't believe all the tear jerker nonsense NBC news is reporting. They are phonies. It's all about ratings.
I tried to call NBC news in on this in New York, they hung up on me the moment I mentioned internet. Absolute scum bags.
They would rather report sensationalist crap than the truth.
I don't know what can be done about shitstains like this, but any advice is welcome.
Wow. The trolls aren't even trying anymore.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
One of the most eloquent explanations I have yet seen. But there is an additional side, expecially with regards to gasoline. Disaster strikes, the station is on allocation and can't get the normal amount that they sell. You raise the price to prevent the unnecessary purchases. This is in effect rationing, which preserves the supply.
If Americans learnt a bit more history, they would not be so surprized how quickly civil society can and WILL break down and turn into complete, unlawful chaos under certain conditions. You may call it pathetic, I'd call it as the historically proven pattern.
So far nothing else seems to prevent this from happening then making sure that the public has access to food, drink, basic infrastructure, basic policing. To provide all these is the main function of the government.
In New Orleans and the sourranding areas the government has collapsed. What has happened is sadly "normal". That's how life looks like without government. It has always been like that.
Of course it's quite clear now that laws that provide rights to carry weapons by blow joe is not very helpful.
Taxcuts, that forced to shrink the budget to keep water away from the city - and the government alive - did not help either. At least not the greater public.
Some will profit quite nicely from the forced reconstruction of the city, paid mostly by the public with the least amount of tax benefits.
The value of lootings you are seeing on tv now will be nothing compared to the windfall some companies and individuals will get as a result of this catastrophy.
Ironically, those people will make the most money on this, who's tax benefit contributed for this to happen at the first place.
Umm in Canada you can walk into a private practice today and get a mammogram, if you are willing to pay. How is that different to the US?
The english health system IS a disaster, and I see that first hand.
One to two month delays between appointments for an URGENT, life-threatening condition for a relative of mine.
It makes me REALLY upset.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
You deserve a real big smack man..
1. These people, if they were able, probably DID put aside food and water. Which is now trapped under 9-20 feet of water in their houses.
2. There is only 1 road out of New orleans right now, and it's DANGEROUS to walk around. It's also on the opposite side of the most affected parts of the city. Put another way.. would you stroll through this with your kids? I'd wait for an escort with guns, thank you.
3. It is essential to get people moved out within 48-72 hours of a disaster. After that, the shock of loosing everything you own wears out and you go into survival mode.
3. These buses are driving right past thousands of people. Today was the first day that any serious evacuation was happening.
I'm not excusing the behaviour of NOLA people - but I understand it. There's looting, rape and murder happening - at the shelters. 60% of the NOLA police force quite because there's no command/control.
Most people got clean WATER for the first time since Monday. Even at the Superdome.
If I were FEMA last Tuesday:
1. Get school busses and get accessible people out now. Sort them somewhere else and reduce the need to ship in food. There should be armed escorts getting these people out. They should be swathing the city eastward so they can make effective use of the manpower instead of diluting it.
2. Evacuate all hospitals. Call in every ambulance you can and fly them out of Baton Rouge.
3. Air-drop food and water all over the city. Hell, have the coast guard drop food around as they're going to rescue survivors. It took 4 days to get those "tons and tons" into the city.
They didn't do that. Instead they:
1. Advised everyone to gather at central locations.. and instantly had supply issues because there's only one friggin road into town.
2. They thought they could fix a 500' levee of MOVING water in 24 hours. Huh?
3. The advised people to evacuate, but didn't coordinate escorts with the National Guard they had.
4. The police were overwhelmed. Many of them didn't even hear that they were under martial law! The city government left town leaving people with no knowledge of the city to coordinate the effort.
It's just totally wrong. Even an 8 year old could figure it out. If you've got limited access you're not going to be able to provide needed services.
FEMA gets billions of dollars to figure this out and completely botched it. Now they're complaining that people are shooting at them, which is wrong, but these people are mentally in survivor mode and if you don't have food or water then you don't matter.
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
News flash: Many, many people have young children. With 48 hours notice, walking is not an option.
Oh, and the fuckers roaming the Dome and raping girls in dark corners? Two in the thighs to shatter bones, one in the gut to promote pain and infection, and a gun butt to the face while they're still conscious.
Unless I'm running out of bullets, I can think of one additional body part of their's that might benefit from a dose of Smith and Wesson...
Someone should spread the rumor that there is a lot of oil now in New Orleans and potentially some of these terrorist gangs are building WMD from the hydrogen. The army will be there and restore order the next day.
why was the evacuation order given only 24 hours in advance?
Recommendations to get out of town started days before that. Not that it should have mattered - the people that live their entire lives below sea level on a coast that is regularly scheduled to have hurricanes hit every year - they've got no excuses not to know that water flows downhill. But the voluntary evac announcement came before that, and the mandatory one (ignored by tens of thousands) still came in plenty of time for people to even walk out of the low lying areas if they cared to.
why aren't there airlifts of food and water to people literally starving and dying of thirst?
There are. There have been since the first day, and tons of food and water have been being driven and flow in every day. They are running into problems, though. In one place, they couldn't even put the the helicopter because people were too dumb not to crowd directly under a descending aircraft. After several attempts, they had to just heave the supplies out to people from 10 feet in the air. Other people are getting huge piles of military rations (and actually complaining to TV reporters that the food is no good because it's "cold" - the same way that thousands of military personnel eat it every day). And, of course, the 10,000+ that are now sleeping in cots in Texas, with showers, hot food, water, communications - they'd probably disagree that they're not getting supplies. They've been brought to the supplies, and it's continuing non-stop, 24x7.
why did Bush wait two days to curtail his cozy vacation to respond to the crisis?
Are you really so desperate to score political points in the middle of this that you're willing to pretend you don't know what a presidential "vacation" is like? Everything - everything - that a president can and has to do follow him wherever he goes. Complete communications, briefings throughout the day, reports to read, findings to authorize, press briefings, and C-in-C duties that occupy much of every day. Just as true of Bill Clinton while he wiled away his time in the Hamptons with his show-biz buddies as it was for Jimmy Carter, or for Bush today. "Curtailing" his vacation just means changing the location where his teleconferences take place - the job is full time, 365 days a year.
why weren't buses used before the storm to bus out those without cars, the elderly, and the sick?
That would be a question for the local government in the city. Many civic organizations, churches, families, and companies did bus their people out of town.
why are the police looting and deserting their posts?
Because you're choosing to call it that. Lacking communications gear in many areas, the city police have no "posts" - they are tasked with using their own professional judgement about how they can be the most useful. In many cases, that's proving to be responding to bogus reports of conflicts, or having to report to real conflicts, such as where people are carjacking ambulances or taking pot shots at rescuers in boats and choppers. As for "looting," they are deliberately removing guns and ammo from sporting goods stores and other repositories, and arranging to haul out the safes that pharmacists use to store narcotics. In order for the cops to continue to function at all, they are comandeering vehicles, fuel, and other tools they need. They wouldn't have so much to do if some residents of the city weren't using this opportunity to roam the streets in gangs causing incredible distractions from the work of saving vulnerable people.
government has a role and a government that can't protect its citizens on basic issues of physical security and competence in the face of disaster is a government that doesn't deserve the consent of the governed.
So, when your neighbor's house burns down, or your whole block is destroyed by a tornado... has your government failed y
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
...And yet it continues to happen, disaster after disaster. World keeps on turnin'...
When you evacuate a major US city, chances are the people who don't leave are going to be the poor, ignorant, and uneducated that were either incapable or too foolish to leave. Many of them even believe they were abandoned and are now lashing out against everyone and anything they feel like. They aren't going to stop until they get a NATO round delivered from their friendly National Guardsmen.
It's anger. Those people were left there with no way to get out and no way to get help.
No way, that is, once they blew their ample opportunity before the storm, or even after the storm but before the water had risen so far. No way to get help? You mean, other than the constant stream of evacutation flights, inbound food and water, and roaming rescue operations that continue (despite being shot at)? Those people weren't left there, they stayed there. In fact, they make the ongoing decision to live below sea level, directly in the path of an every-year hurricane season.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
The moral of the story is that price gouging laws are not there to protect the consumer from getting gouged. They are there to prevent civil unrest. If you tell people you have the last ten and you have ten + 90 hidden in the back and you charge an exorbitant fee for each generator, and a riot ensues, you're directly responsible for creating the conditions that instigated the riot.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
I'm sure the people on the ground in New Orleans appreciate your politicization of the situation.
Everybody wants the response to this to be quick, efficient, and painless.
A Category 5 hurricane just swapped a swash of the gulf coast: there is nothing, repeat, nothing that can make this better. People will suffer -- people will die. It pains me that reporters relentlessly beat-up FEMA and other government personnel on-air (while people wait to be shuttled out of a disaster zone, no less) because they don't think their response is good enough.
It doesn't help. Unless you've got something productive to say or do, let Joe Allbaugh do his damn job and please, please shut the fuck up.
</flame>
This sig rocks the casbah.
I plan to be out of the city by then and in the countryside, preferably where I'm not noticed. Water, Shelter, Food, Clothes, Tools, and a helluva lot of recorded history, information, how-tos, and parts will be leaving with me. I thank God/Yalweh/Allah/the Random Factor every day that Wikipedia is in a downloadable format, so much for having to worry about "how do I carry around an encyclopedia set because there will be NOONE around to answer my questions"...
People want everything without the price; but the bill is coming due, and it's called Peak Oil. He who has an IQ over 90 and can read English, understand this: there is a fucking trainwreck headed into our homes and we're letting it happen. To those with an IQ over 120, shame on you for imagining that aibiotic oil exists, that fuel cells and hydrogen power are the answer, and that you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that the people running the government give a shit about the American populace? We're in Iraq to secure the oil supply of Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, and a few other countries; mark my words, Venezuela will be on the short list too, don't be suprised if we suddenly have a "war on drugs" that shows up in South America. Read Zbrinsky's "The Grand Chessboard", written in the 80's, for a taste of what has been planned for the last 30 years.
In the meantime, you can continue to build cities on top of fault lines, cities that are in the path of regularly occuring hurricanes, or better yet, cities that are under sea level (who was the genius that thought of that one?). We'll continue to build box-style houses, not because the homeowners want them, but because they are cheap and quick to build for the developers who are getting rich off of our backs (of course, alternative structures have been shown time and time again to be superior in strength, rigidity, and utility, but we couldn't do something as obvious as broadcast the fact that the two domes in the south are being used to house people, no, Gawd forbid, we need to have those suburban rowhouses...) We will continue to rely on mysterious, unknown forces to provide us with water (pumped with electricity, purified with chemicals, and tested by city personel for our safety - nevermind that nearly all of our freshwater reserves underground have been dried up and used), food (depends on no less than 4-5 different industries, all of which have direct ties back to oil consumption; hell, food is little more than plants that grew from oil-based fertilizers that are sprayed on the ground the same way we spray cleaners on a sponge), shelter (did I mention that the homeless people out there are no longer just druggies, bums, alcoholics, but former families that have no way to support themselves because our society requires a job to make anything happen; whatever happened to self-sufficiency?), and all of the other Wal*Mart made-in-China crap.
China? We're funding the communist party of China with American dollars AND American jobs, but they still hate our guts and would love to see the Imperial American Running Dogs collapse under the massive debt we're accumulating.
Technology will not save us. Returning back to primitivism - despite the appeal it has to the extreme environmentalists - will not save us. The established institutions have been perverted so badly that they are mere shadows of their original conception (the Government is little more than the mouthpiece of multinational corporate "entities", as if corporations were really people - another fucked up concept) Rational thought, compromise, teamwork, community, and a complete understanding of what we as a people are doing, just might.
Its admirable that he attempting to keep communication
While I understand that to be the philosophy, it is also my understanding that when applied to real life, those things I mentioned would be the outcome, as most Libertarians I spoke to are of a belief that free-market economics is a form of a religion and therefore flawless and universally applicable with no checks or balances. The resulting monopolies and concentration of wealth would quickly create some sort of corporate-feudal warlord society. Slavery would not be far behind. This has little to do with the ideals of Libertarianism, very much so as ideals of Marxism had very little to do with the Soviet Union or Mao's China. They were merely an ill-coceived system of concepts ripe to be abused in order to sieze power by some.
but somebody must have taught you that all libertarians are cold, apathetic, greedy, and selfish individuals.
Err, it was my personal experience with them which lead me to that conclusiom. Curiously enough, you and the other poster on this thread are apparently of a different variety, at least at the first glance.
Many libertarians support helping others, and many libertarians are filling the government's shoes and helping donate to Red Cross and other organizations. (Libertarians love private charity).
The arguments I had in the past were revolving around the contention that charity was all that was needed and the governments should butt out, partially because the proper size of a government are the dimentions of a telephone booth. Or something to that effect.
"As of noon, the media had more information about happinings inside the city than the FEMA director did! He didn't even know about the situation near the convention center until the media told him. It appears the media is closer and better informed of this situation than is the government. The CIA often uses the media as secondary source of intelligence. Most of the time I would disagree, but in this instance I would suggest that the authorities follow that lead and begin to pay attention to the media outlets as it appears they are able to get information in and out."
I'll clip this out and post it on the BB every time someone critisizes the media. Thanks.
Anyway I agree that we should have gone in and evacuated everyone, period. Better to lose a city than it's citizens. Anyway we should go in full force, do what needs to be done, no questions asked, and then get out when no longer needed.
I second the nomination!
is there any way that web users could collaborate to create a map which would streamline search and rescue operations? there is a huge amount of information posted about trapped victims...could web users work together to crunch it all so that by morning rescue workers can have a clearer picture of where to start?
News flash: Many, many people have young children. With 48 hours notice, walking is not an option.
Then, why, WHY have they chosen to give birth to, and raise kids while living below sea level in the path of recurring hurricanes that happen every year like clockwork? This storm was inevitable, and the entire gulf coast culture knows the history and probability of hurricane damage. That is an inherently risky place to live, and if you don't have the means to live there and also provide that buffer you might need in case you see a giant hurricane paste Florida days earlier and head your way... well, perhaps it would be better simply to move to Tennessee, or someplace that your kids are less likely to be displaced by a cat5 storm. And of course, displacement or not, what kind of parent would have multiple kids in the house, and not have a least a week's drinking water and canned beans (perhaps a $50 investment, liberally?) available, especially in a zone like New Orleans?
The elderly and infirm would have so many more resources aimed at helping them out if the authorities weren't so busy fishing out the people who were still in bars ordering up Hurricane cocktails an hour before the storm made landfall, or dodging jackasses that feel some urge to take shots at emergency personnel.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
The Federal Government can't mobilize troops until the State requests it AND the President authorises it. It may be fucked up, but if Louisiana never asked and the President didn't authorise it then no dice. Also, New Orleans held up pretty well the first day. The flooding did not come as a direct result of the storm surge. Now the LA National Guard SHOULD have been mobilized.Also, there can't be much of a comparison with a natural disaster of this magnitude and a well funded and intelligent, and even numerous group of people. Yes, the people could do a lot of damage, but the extent and geographic expanse of devastation of Katrina could not be matched. e.g. they could take out New Orleans, but not damage the LOOP, all other oil structures, and the Missippi Guld Coast too
Is it a money issue? We've invested 100s of billions to "help the people of Iraq", sent billions to Sunami relief... just get it over with and turn on the supply line. Sort out the price later, its going to be a lot cheaper than dealing with the aftermath if the situation is just left to fester for a few more days. Why are the national guard suiting up and shipping out today instead of stocking supplies last Sunday and being airborn and on their way as soon as the winds died down?!
I additionally cannot understand the elected officials "concentrating on search and rescue" for the first few days. Is there any reason it has to be mutually exclusive of attending to the refugees or bringing food and bottled water?! Don't we have more than one or two aircraft to put toward this?
WTF?! This is America. We have resources, if nothing else. We've had several years of "Homeland Security" which ought to be looking at how to handle mass destruction (manmade or otherwise) and should have plenty of preplanned responses to scenarios similar to this. Have they been too busy redrawing the org. charts that whole time to get any real preparedness underway?
I just cannot believe how lethargic and incompetently this humitarian disaster is being handled... in our own back yard.
Mod parent up.
The lack of sympathy for what these people are going through astonishes me. The whole fucking nation was all warm and cuddly after 9/11 but in New Orleans all the victims have only themselves to blame?
Wonder why that is?
There are a lot of areas in other states that got hit really hard as well.
But you don't see this kind of moral failure in these other locations. Why? Because no-where else are people literally as trapped as they are in New Orleans.
This is not so much a sad day for the US as a model of why not to build a town in a place people cannot leave when something everyone expects to happen actually occurs.
The only solution is shoot-to-kill orders for all rioters and armed criminals there.
I would agree with this but for one immediate problem and one larger comment. When prices fall you certainly aren't going to sell the stock you bought at the high price at a loss. Either way the business is making money, the question is when does your making money infringe on other people's needs, i.e. for gas/food/water/whatever. Society is about the common good and sometimes you'll have to take one for the team (and not make obscene profits).
If I were in charge here is what I would do:
1) Declare marshall law; put the military in charge
2) Drop paratroopers to secure sites for coming supply drops
3) Do air drops of food and medical supplies (water too)
4) Send in the SEALS with their dingy boats to begin to rescue people/pick off snipers/gangs
5) Send in forward air controllers and ham radio operators- by parachute if needed. I would include military medics as well.
6) Commondere every single bus in the state of Texas, LA, MS, AL and AR and move into the city heavily fortified by military support
7) Use 2 aircraft carriers, park them as close to the city as possible. AC#1 gets used as military command and HQ. AC#2 is used to put evacuaees aboard for food/shelter. If AC#2 isn't available commondere a cruise ship and use it.
Asking for British, Canadian, and Mexican forces to lend a hand is a good idea as well. This might mean major withdrawl from Iraq which would worsen the situation over there but free up resources here. However when faced with helping fellow Americans or keeping the stability of a foreign country (which is close to being on its own feet anyway) I would personally choose American lives over Iraqis.
Drastic times call for drastic measures.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE for the current situation and a severe leadership AND communication void exists. This scenerio is NOT being managed in the right way and once this is over I want to see several independent and congressional studies as to what the breakdown was.
As of noon, the media had more information about happinings inside the city than the FEMA director did! He didn't even know about the situation near the convention center until the media told him. It appears the media is closer and better informed of this situation than is the government. The CIA often uses the media as secondary source of intelligence. Most of the time I would disagree, but in this instance I would suggest that the authorities follow that lead and begin to pay attention to the media outlets as it appears they are able to get information in and out.
DISCLAIMER:
I realize I am not in charge and being a Monday morning/arm chair quarterback is not accomplishing anything but I feel the need to share my thoughts and vent nonetheless.
Feel free to post your input/comments. If you disagree with me that is fine but please be polite about it or I won't respond to your post
Libertas in infinitum
Then, why, WHY have they chosen to give birth to, and raise kids while living below sea level in the path of recurring hurricanes that happen every year like clockwork? Every year? When was the last time a hurricane hit New Orleans? When was the last time ANYTHING like this happened?
But fuck, keep blaming the victims. Don't you feel better about yourself now? You're so smart. So good. Why, tragedy beyond your wildest expectations or control would NEVER happen to you.
People are DEAD. People are being RAPED. There are infants dying in the fucking streets and your focus is on blaming them, their parents. For all you know their parents DID stock up. But guess what? Their houses are now under nine feet of water. It is the government's JOB to maintain law and order, and they.. have.. FAILED.
+5 Really Gets It.
Prepare ye for slashdot cometh. Brace the storm lest it break you.
Redirection:
Redirect your enemy to fall upon others; thus only few straglers that find their way to you.
That way the urine will not overflow the chamberpot.
All logic and no say:
Removeth all dynamic content of all barrels, lest it's cumbersome tar like contents
slow you down.
Compression:
Press together all your things so as to make them smaller, every byte you take makes you
more able to handle the enemy.
The last advice I have saved for if all others fail:
Unpluggeth thy webserver, for how can any fortress be stormed,
if it is not there?
Actually, these guys *are* the pros. So why not let them continue, since they've proven to be more than competent? Either Bell South has to bring guys in, or they can let the guys who are already doing a bang-up job just keep going.
This is a little OT but I don't understand why officials are trying to send aid INTO the city as opposed to getting PEOPLE OUT. The whole place is a biohazard and must be completely evacuated minus engineers and health officials. If they do not do this perfectly healthy people are going to start dying in droves. They should be putting people on anything with wheels and sending them tent cities 20 miles out of town. I've heard nothing along these lines in the media. Can someone exaplain that to me?
This isn't flamebait! It's an honest (and sane) opinion.
[-- Trust the Monkey --]
and even at a slow walk, thousands of the able-bodied people that I'm seeing trash stores and mill around shouting at the people trying to help - they could have strolled all the way out of town before the weather and water even hit.
have you ever been to new orleans... you can't walk out of that place... not with all the cars that were on the bridge that goes over the SWAMP that surrounds the city.. I know I am nit picking here... but still man.. there was no way out for alot of these people...
1) Declare marshall law; put the military in charge
4 61521
2) Drop paratroopers to secure sites for coming supply drops
3) Do air drops of food and medical supplies (water too)
4) Send in the SEALS with their dingy boats to begin to rescue people/pick off snipers/gangs
5) Send in forward air controllers and ham radio operators- by parachute if needed. I would include military medics as well.
6) Commondere every single bus in the state of Texas, LA, MS, AL and AR and move into the city heavily fortified by military support
7) Use 2 aircraft carriers, park them as close to the city as possible. AC#1 gets used as military command and HQ. AC#2 is used to put evacuaees aboard for food/shelter. If AC#2 isn't available commondere a cruise ship and use it.
Asking for British, Canadian, and Mexican forces to lend a hand is a good idea as well. This might mean major withdrawl from Iraq which would worsen the situation over there but free up resources here. However when faced with helping fellow Americans or keeping the stability of a foreign country (which is close to being on its own feet anyway) I would personally choose American lives over Iraqis.
You can read more of my posting here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=160857&cid=13
Libertas in infinitum
normally I would agree with you, but we are forgetting that most people in a time of crisis are not rational and and want something way more, especially if the prices is increasing, so instead of prices reaching an equlibrum we get a funny feedback loop where demand and price contiue to rise. Look at atalanta 5-6 bucks a gallon for gas and the lines are just getting longer as the price climbs. I love the free market but it's not a religion.
This is a sig, there are many like it, but this is mine.
I don't think you understand the word libertarian. Libertarianism != anarchy (complete lack of rule). Libertarians don't believe in raiding high ground or infrastructure
Really?
So how do you intend to enforce this, exactly?
, and they don't believe in slavery (they believe it is a violation of one's freedom; remember, libertarianism has the philosophy of freedom and of non-coercion).
The things in employee-business contracts I've seen libertarians endorse have been incredibly scary.
How do you make non-coercion possible in an environment where there is no one present to step in and stop it when it happens? Without some kind of third party as an arbiter to enforce this, the more powerful party will always be able to dictate the terms of any contract. This will always be the business, never the employee. This is what coercion means.
Thank YOU. I'm not a big fan of libertarianism (see my sig) but by God I'm going to give you mad props for a reasonable and insightful post. The *fundamental* job of the government is to maintain law and order. Without it, man naturally descends into anarchy and chaos, as we are seeing stark proof of now. If the government cannot of will not prevent such chaos then it has failed at its most fundamental responsibilities.
Well, I think that ALL resources should be used no matter what EVEN if that means abandoning Iraq; they are close to being stable anyway. I am sure it would have very negative consequences however to me and all of my fellow citizens, I would venture to say that, American civilians should take a higher priority than Iraqi civilians.
Besides, there are tens of thousands of military personell left stateside or other areas of non-conflict that could be deployed.
Also we can make airdrops with planes, not just helicopters.
Personally I think this is a command and control problem, and not as much of a resource problem.
Libertas in infinitum
Look, my point is that Libertarianism is in the eye of the beholder. If there were no tension among freedoms, everybody could enjoy every freedom simultaneously and there would be no issue of bickering about laws in the first place, because we wouldn't need any laws. The problem is each freedom almost always makes some imposition, large or small, on other people. That's why we're stuck weighing freedoms against each other and sacrifice some to preserve others.
Sorry, just venting. All the speculation and self-righteous indignation in the comments on this article give me the impression that humanity really is as inherently cruel and self-centered as the violence on the streets of New Orleans.
Sorry again. Ignore all that. Just give blood. :^D
All, here are two batches of photos which the aforementioned individual posted and/or linked to earlier in the day, available via BitTorrent:
g z.torrent - 472.6MiBg z.torrent - 57.4MiB
http://media.ofdoom.com:8080/movies/katrina1.tar.
http://media.ofdoom.com:8080/movies/katrina2.tar.
Enjoy. This is from Pathwalker and I.
Many Canadians come to the US for life-saving health care rather than wait for their needed tratments in their socialized "universal healthcare" system. How's your little box working out for you?
everything in moderation
According to the Louisiana governor: "Blanco said President George W. Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."
But the Mayor had to sleep on it on start the evacuation the next morning:
http://weblog.sinteur.com/?m=20050828 In an interview on Eyewitness News, Nagin said his Saturday night dinner was interrupted by an urgent call from Governor Kathleen Blanco who asked Nagin to call the Hurricane Center.
Nagin said he would consider ordering evacuations by Sunday morning and may employ buses and trains to help get people out of the city.
"or Canada (9 months of waiting for a mammogram)."
You're being lied to, well maybe not lied to, but you allowing yourself to be misled, and you're trying to mislead others.
I live in Australia, we have nationalised health care. We also have private health care if you want it (though every one i know that has it usually end up in the public hospitals anyway when they have something go really wrong).
I've been in and out of hospital 5 times in the last two months with a recently diagnosed low risk heart condition, it will be fixed in an operation next month. Thats three months from when i initially passed out. This is a non life threatening condition and i'm in the state that is assumed to have the worst care in Australia (Queensland). If i went to Sydney i could of had it done this month, but it's not really a problem so i'll wait.
Immediate cost to me $0.
I broke my leg three years ago, One week in hospital, an eight hour operation, titanium bar in my leg and pysiotherapy.
Immediate cost to me $0.
Obviously it is not free, i pay $650p/a in my taxes as a medicare levy as does anyone who earns over $52,000p/a. The average cost for private health insurance is $1000p/a and you still have to fork over thousands if you actually need anything reasonable done.
I've received world class treatment in our public hospitals, Quick efficient and no problems outside of the norm, some doctors not listening carefully etc,etc...
See the good thing about the internet, it lets you hear and talk to other people about their experiences in their countries. Understand me, the US is *NO* better than here, thats not that its bad, its very very good, just like here. The major difference is that here i don't have to *worry* about getting sick or something going wrong, i know that i will get top class healthcare no matter my situation, and there will be not a $100,000 bill at the end of it. I know this from my own, my family and my friends experiences, this is in contrast to what you have "heard" by talking heads and 'pundits' about those evil nationalised health care coutries.
Even if you were correct in what your implying (which you're not), there's horror stories in every large system in the world that deals with people, funnily in this country the American system is used as the example of what we most definately don't want.
Oh well, what would i know i'm just a citizen living in a country that understands that there is more to life and society than profit motive for business.
According to the Louisiana governor: "Blanco said President George W. Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."
But the Mayor had to sleep on it on start the evacuation the next morning:
http://weblog.sinteur.com/?m=20050828
In an interview on Eyewitness News, Nagin said his Saturday night dinner was interrupted by an urgent call from Governor Kathleen Blanco who asked Nagin to call the Hurricane Center.
Nagin said he would consider ordering evacuations by Sunday morning and may employ buses and trains to help get people out of the city.
Other people are getting huge piles of military rations (and actually complaining to TV reporters that the food is no good because it's "cold" - the same way that thousands of military personnel eat it every day).
One disagreement here. The DoD is airlifting MREs (Meal[s] ready to eat) to the people. I have eaten these before. These meals, while initially cold, have a nifty little wamer in them that will heat up the main course to over 100 degrees fahrenheit. You put the main meal bag into this second bag with a chemical in it and add (drum roll please) WATER! It doesn't matter how pure the water is because the main meal is in it's own waterproof sub bag that is (usually) still sealed when being heated. (Note, that the MREs were specifically designed to work with untreated water of questionable purity) If these people are stupid enough not to read the directions and find a cup of water in a city that is drowning under 3 feet of water, I don't really think they should be getting the MREs in the first place.
Face it, some people are just plain idiots.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
We in Canada are sitting waiting for a phone call from the US. We have supplies, people ready to start helping.
FUCK.... Phone Call... Please
Not content with exploiting suffering to push your global warming religion, you leftist asses now blame chaos on libertarianism. I tell you, it's the libertarian types who are defending property with guns, or putting their own earned money on the line in emergency donations, that are doing the most good.
Why don't you fucks crawl to N.O. and apologise directly to the people you've insulted and to all the graves you've spat upon?
There are no words for how deeply you disgust me.
I don't think you understand the word libertarian
Unfortunately, neither do the vast majority of the libertarians I have met.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Me, too, and I am one of the anarchists he hates. :)
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Sigh
Except only congress can declare martial law, so that point is out the window.
Thanks for that... a good laugh is just what I needed after reading up on this tragedy for the last few hours.
People are born where they are born. If you've watched much of the coverage most of those left behind are poor and black. As a matter of fact more than a few of those interviewed said they couldn't even afford a tank of gas to get out, let alone the price of lodging and food.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/125282
But the good news is that Congress was able to secure $24 billion (not a typo) in pork barrel projects in the last transportation bill a few weeks ago, including Sen. Don Young's $250 million bridges to uninhabited islands in Alaska.
Well, according to all of the libertarian books and articles that I have read, nearly all libertarians are opposed to slavery because slavery deprives the slaves of many freedoms. The core of libertarian thought is that people should be free to do their actions as long as they don't use their power to restrict the freedoms of others. Slavery is one of the ultimate restrictions of freedom, and most libertarians are strongly opposed to slavery.
I sort of agree with you on the last paragraph. All libertarians don't think alike. Some are minarchists (small government), some are anarcho-capitalists (almost no government), some are Objectionists, and some are neolibertarians and geolibertarians. Many libertarians disagree with how small they want to make the government and what practices will they use to one day reach the libertarian goal. However, libertarianism isn't about "no laws and no order". Freedom doesn't mean a "free-for-all." A society needs law and order to survive, and there isn't a better organization that can handle law and order than the government.
Judging from all of the anti-libertarian posts here, I'm starting to think that libertarianism has already gotten a nasty reputation for being anarchist and overtly narcissic, even though it libertarianism is virtually unheard of in the mainstream society. Libertarianism is quite misunderstood. Libertarians aren't anarchists trying to destroy the government and give all power to corporations trying to suck your blood. All libertarians generally want is for this government to become less bloated and start respecting personal freedoms and free market economics.
I'm not so foolish to forget that once upon a time, there were no such things as hospitals, housing plans, and fossil fuels. All of these, without exception, are luxuries, and in my opinion, not really worth regulating. They are merely the creations of society, people working together, and have generally benefited the most through those that embrace both personal altruism and and capitalism. When you get right down to it, if some massive horrible event or a simple energy crisis completely destroys the modern incarnations of health care, transportation, and employment, the world will keep on turning.
Regulating healthcare, energy prices, and employment the way you seem to suggest is a bit like building levees around the Mississippi and draining the Lousiana wetlands. Sure, there may be some short term good, but sooner or later... usually sooner... it's all going to break down.
Eventually, the world may get to a point where the hospital is a relic of an overpopulated and wealthy planet, horses will again become a primary means of transportaion, and out old people will start dying earlier. It's not necessarily a bad thing, just a bit different and a bit more inconvenient.
As seen in the Wall Street Journal, Holman Jenkins:
http://studiocritic.com/nola/
Armed gangs are in control of New Orleans, and their FedEx, apparently.
On the contrary-- this is exactly what you socialists want. The government is in charge, didn't let people get out, has been running around stealing property....
In a libertarian society, there would be massive amounts of aid there. But say you live in Baton Rouge and want to drive a truck down with water and food. Can you? Hell no- the police won't let you in... and if the do, they certainly won't let you sell the food and water. So, less people are doing it. Where is the RED CROSS? Where is anyone with food or water or medicine? The National Guard is tooling around in empty trucks. The cops are too busy keeping people from leaving the city, and herding them at gunpoint. This is not libertarianism-- this is fascist socialism.
500 tourists were stopped by the police as they tried to exit the city tonight. One was interviewed on CNN. They were stopped at gunpoint. Their busses, which they had paid for, were commandered. And not to pick up people who needed them-- there are thousands standing outside the superdome, who have been there for 3 days, and have gotten ZERO busses. No, the police just stole them, and forced the tourists back into the city at gunpoint. Wouldn't let them walk out. If some of those tourists had had firearms and the sense to use them, less of them would die than will now die because of this police action. THIS IS THE SOCIALIST POLICE STATE IN ACTION.
You socialists want people disarmed and dependant on the state-- and this is what you get.
Congratulations. Thousands dead. You happy?
-- its very interesting that the troll posts are getting modded up and anyone who disagrees is getting modded down. Proof that the slashdot moderation system is totally broken.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
They could be damn sure it was going to hit SOMEWHERE (hurricanes usually moving north and such.)
NOT moving them out surely is going to be a "major disruption" to some people i.e. being DEAD and all...
Ever considered people who a) are poor and didn't know there was public transport available to move them out? b) were unable to move because they are too sick/disabled/emotionally disturbed to move out?
Darwin rules? Yeah right! You just be glad you're not one of those people stuck there.
Quote from one of The Gubernator's previous personas: "Fuck You Asshole!"
Where can I donate to this worthy cause? I have spare ammo.
everything in moderation
I mean, like, get WITH IT, man. Freedom is soooooo passe.
Is that what you're saying?
No, the government isn't perfect. You want to take your turn trying to fix the world's problems now?
I believe you have never met a libertarian, or you are not being honest about what they believe .
for instance, in a free market, there would be no monopolies-- because the only way monopolies can exist is when government creates them.
In a free market, if someone got monopoly power, they would quickly lose it because their prices would be above market rates.
Hell, even opec wasn't able to keep pricing power.
Libertarians don't believe in slavery. Democrats do. They just call it "taxes".
Libertarians don't want to seize power-- because doing so would be to violate others rights.
Libertarians believe in capitalism which, unlike the communism you seem to espouse, DOES WORK in the real world.
Libertarians in the area would be in New Orleans right now sellign food at cost and water at cost and getting people fed and hydrated... but the socialists will not let them in. Hell, the socialist police state you lvoe so much will not even let the red cross in.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
a lame excuse because the next question
should be: Why were were you building something
that would not have made a difference?
I think the guy writing the blog would strongly disagree with you. Were it a less stressful time, I would suggest that you take it up with him. If you had read his words, you would realize that chaos is the perfect description, and it's only getting worse. But of course, commenting on the article itself was never your intention.
Excellent troll, AC. Kudos to your bandwagon respondents too. An issue like this does not need to be politicized or taken over by ideologues. But as your foolishness demonstrates, inevitably it will be.
No. Coercion means you signed the contract because I have a gun to your head.
It doesn't mean you signed the contract because it was the best deal you could get.
If you couldn't, or wouldn't, get a better deal elsewhere, then you weren't coerced.
YOU are the one who wants to enslave everyone by saying that they can only enter into deals you agree with, no matter whether they agree with them or not. This is what minimum wage is-- more people have starved because of minimum wage than would have without it.
You socialists would rather people be unemployed for the whole week at $5 an hour and make $0 that week, than employed at less than minimum wage and make $150 that week.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
It's not just Europeans (speaking as an Australian).
You're a fucking idiot, and you know everything you say is a lie, but you are so fucking pathetic all you can do is run around and smear your betters because your bullshit theories don't play in the real world. Fortunately, reality is pretty good at keeping score, and all the pain you're spewing in this thread is well earned. Try being a decent human sometime.
Hey, at least you picked an accurate handle.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
I was unaware that the police were preventing people from leaving at gunpoint. I can imagine the police looting for food and water only just like everyone else; I think that is acceptable. I can also understand their efforts to rally everyone in one area but even that might be not such a great idea.
Are you suggesting some sort of larger unknown to us reason of why this is? A conspiracy perhaps? Do you think that there is a specific cause for why there is very little, if any, traffic in and out including the Feds?
Or do you think that it is simply due to lack of orginazation, coordination, and communication? In otherwords command and control.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Libertas in infinitum
After that, any armed civilians should be given one warning to disarm and pick up a shovel. They say no? Two in the head.
See if they are trustworthy for helping out with security first. I know a lot of retired military who I would rather see with a gun and leading a group in a case like this than diging with a shovel.
Refuse to dig in and help? Two in the ass.
Nah, waste of ammo. Just refuse to give them food and water until they decide to help out.
Take a shot at the Guard or a rescue chopper? Two in the gut and let them roll around in water that's been filtered through a few hundred dead bodies. Infection and the sun will take them in a day or so, and they'll suffer like they deserve.
I think you're being to leanient on these guys. One in the gut, then string them up someplace in the sun (while still alive) to serve as an example to others.
Oh, and the fuckers roaming the Dome and raping girls in dark corners? Two in the thighs to shatter bones, one in the gut to promote pain and infection, and a gun butt to the face while they're still conscious, just to let them know why they're being removed from the gene pool.
Again, too lenient and a waste of ammo. Cut off their dick and balls, make them eat them and let them bleed to death from loss of blood.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
That's a great idea. Extreme violence works so well at curbing extreme violence. Who cares about helping and protecting people in need, somebody just stole a fucking television and we need to send out the death squad ASAP!
I can answer this for the United Methodist Committee on Relief, someone else will have to fill in the information for the others.
UMCOR has two things going for them. One, they stick around for months and help with the long-term recovery. Two, the regular church budget covers all their overhead so that out of every dollar you donate, 100 cents goes into the field.
I've always heard that the Salvation Army is outstandingly efficient as well.
No, actually, only the poorest people in Canada actually wait nine months. In the US, some twenty five percent can't afford a mammogram at all.
Short term, property is supplies that can be sold, or donated to the suffering. It's the belongings of individuals and businesses, and the difference between whether they have anything to come back to, or not.
Medium term, property is the seeds of new infrastructure and the resumption of civil life. It's a job for the employees and a place to spend money on food and rebuilding. It's the social core of a healing city.
Long term, property is what will hold jobs there and restart the economy, rather than have the last scraps of the city collapse from disuse and economic irrelevance, and blow away in the winds of time.
Property is life. A disaster just makes this more evident. Shooting looters to protect property is fully justified.
So, uh... Is livejournal considered a blog now??
In the US i wouldnt have to pay. (assuming i had insurance)
The delays and waiting lists are a disaster, agreed. *But*:
- Everyone has health care
- It costs much less than a lot of other health care systems
I'm English, but live in Germany. Everyone has health care here and waiting lists are more-or-less unheard-of, but for that privilege, everyone's paying about 13% of their gross salary.
I'm not saying the English system is great, but it certainly isn't a disaster as a whole - all health-care is a compromise between cost and quality of service. Germany's towards the high cost and pretty good quality of service end (I imagine some Scandinavian countries go further in that direction). England's low cost and pretty shitty service. The US has such high cost that bucketloads of people can't afford the healthcare - which, irrespective of the quality of service for those with healthcare, seems like a worse compromise for their society as a whole than either the English or German systems.
PenguiNet: the (shareware) Windows SSH client
Err, and your point, besides the foam and spittle, was what exactly?
Indeed.
You idiot.
everything in moderation
It is so hard to keep track of the far out wacko social theories.
Please, please--tell the class what's far out and whacko about Libertarianism. You're posting just to get a rise out of us, and it's ridiculous--instead of actually discussing something you obviously know dick about, you're acting like you're in 2nd grade (as is basically everyone in this thread) Seriously, what's your beef?
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
I would reject your suggestion of many, but some do and those are the ones who can afford it. For the rest of us who don't have the money there is a good chance that we could die or receive substandard care if we had an american system where the user pays. I know I probably wouldn't be alive today or at the very best in extremely poor condition had I lived in America. Don't fool yourself some cases may make the news because they couldn't get treatment, but many more of us do get our treatment and depending on our situation get it quickly. And as a Canadian I am very proud of our healthcare system and many of our other socialist programs.
One of the weird things is that the first major breach happened on one of the few sections that had recently been upgraded:
No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls.
Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded."
[link]
It is not surprising that there were multiple levee failures, given the underfunding of the system... especially during the Bush administration.
But on the other hand, to really do it right and improve the system to survive a direct hit from a category 4 hurricane was estimated (in 2002) to cost around 14 Billion dollars. link
It's obvious to everyone now that this would have been a bargain compared to the loss of life that is going on today. But politically it would have been almost impossible to commit that kind of federal funding without a major disaster happening first. The reason the levees were improved to handle a category 3 hurricane was the flooding and deaths caused by Hurricane Betsy in 1965. And in any case, such a project was estimated to take over ten years to implement.
It is sad that practically all of this was foreseen, and that the government did not have the will to do anything about it. Clinton (and the Republican Congress of the time) at least increased rather than decreased the funding. But even then, it was nowhere near enough of what was needed to handle a storm like Katrina.
If that's true, those cops are not cops, they are armed thugs and they should be shot.
What you're saying is that everyone should be like those armed thugs. Just fight your way out!
And what of those old ladies dying in wheelchairs? "Socialists" or many other kinds of people that might disagree with you don't "want" her disarmed and dependant on the state, the fact is that she is disarmed and dependant on the state.
Should she 1) arm herself or 2) use all that cash she has on her to hire a private contractor to take her out of there? And you're seriously saying that tourists should have come armed? Come visit Louisiana! And bring your gun!
It seems very implausible that many kinds of people such as the sick, the dying, the young, the elderly, the destitute could fight or buy their way out of this hellscape or any other more moderate predicament.
Right, the same libertarians who want everything to be run for profit would cheerfully abandon everything to lose their shirts and possibly lives by personally investing vast sums of money in the rescue effort. Perheaps you did not hear that private citizens are abandoning the rescue effort because of the cost of gas and shortage thereof (here is free market for you) and the bullets whizzing by.
Their busses, which they had paid for, were commandered. And not to pick up people who needed them-- there are thousands standing outside the superdome, who have been there for 3 days, and have gotten ZERO busses. No, the police just stole them, and forced the tourists back into the city at gunpoint.
Yes and the busses were used to organize a sight-seeing excursion for the police. Complete with a BBQ and a recreational boat tour, following which they took off for Disney Land. You are raving mad, but being such, you probably do not know that.
You socialists want people disarmed and dependant on the state-- and this is what you get.
We get our state to help us out in need. Our Canadian government handled many a disaster with no problems, including the "flood of the century". Curiously, in all prior instances, when FEMA was not run by Libertarians, it never failed. Only after Bush appointed a Libertarian it cant seem to find its ass. I do wonder.
They should have left them all outside where it was safe.
And why didn't they fly the supplies in before the hurricane passed through? Surely that would have saved time? Two jumbo jets should have been enough? Ten?
Well, since they didn't do that, they should have been running semis across the levy Monday morning. Checking for structural damage can wait, right?
Let's see. God doesn't do politics anymore, so you want the government to play God, right?
I have a better idea. If you're in the area, get your shovel and dig in. If you have some other chance to help, do so. Plenty of time to second guess the president/governor/mayor later.
This is flamebait? Am I the only one that finds it shocking that even though theres a national disaster in the US, but at least they got network services up and running? There isnt even running clean water!!! There seams to be a problem with priorities here.
The "interdictor" shouldnt be playing with his routers, he should be out there helping people. Theres bodies laying there in the streets that arent getting moved as there isnt anyone to move them... the next stage is the outbreak of serious disease! My god people get a grip, your knee deep in shit and the dead but at least you can bitch about it on your blogs?
Thanks for re-enforcing my perspective that the human race is seriously disappearing up its own backside.
You are as predictible as most USians, thinking that because you are richer are superior than undeveloped countries.
Right. Because the best way to deal with a disaster situation is to have all on hand personel spend their time searching through people's bags to check if they contain food or other items. Maybe we should set up a X-ray machine or something? A few neat orderly queues for inspection? Though I suppose some people might enjoy conducting strip searches for weapons, (I guess we expect people to wade through literal sh*t to get to invasively probed...) this might not be the best way to save people.
Thanks for the (mild) insult.
I doubt you care, but my sighing was caused by the disheartening feeling of not being able to compactly and at the same time coherently conveying a world view. On my part.
I sigh at the feeling I feel that actually going to the motions of explaining what I think is useless. It's extremely discouraging: it's discouraging for someone who very much believes in the power of communication to find himself daunted with the task of communicating.
Yup, all those people should just manage fine eh? So, why do we need governments then, if everyone is so self capable?
Your position comes across as a shallow justification of a sheltered position. Excessive affluence is always so damned obvious.
Right. Lets see. How many protections do you see preventing an oil production cartel from forming which would own most of the production fields and distribution? Hmm? Or a system of interlocking companies which would essentially own the entire towns in which their workers live? Do names like Carnegie, Mellon and others ring a bell? How about the Bell Telephone company? You sir, should read a book or two on some rather recent history.
Hell, even opec wasn't able to keep pricing power.
That is why we have a $15 per barrel oil today, thankfully, no?
Libertarians don't want to seize power-- because doing so would be to violate others rights.
Ok so you have 10 libertarians with regular guns and 5 non-libertarians (lets call them anarcho-capitalists) with really big guns. Since we have no police or government (no taxes), fast forward to 2 days later and we have 5 happy dudes served by 10 unhappy but well chained former libertarian bitches. Get the picture?
Libertarians in the area would be in New Orleans right now sellign food at cost and water at cost and getting people fed and hydrated...
Selling?! Selling at cost?! Those people have no money, you barely coherent cretin.
Part of me still wants to go help (not that I could - the only real help Red Cross is asking for are $$),
Give what you can. Every $ helps.
Maybe they expect New Orleans to be a big campground for a couple of weeks? A big catered campground? Maybe a little damp?
Probably they're in shock and aren't thinking clearly, but since they can't be all evacuated in an hour, getting supplies in is important.
Amazing little tidbit I found at MSNBC: SA is hosted at this site. That's one hell of a load to be able to host entirely through the storm and last few days, but it seems that they've intentionally taked it down to conserve bandwidth (SA doesn't dns resolve for me anymore).
In a free market, if someone got monopoly power, they would quickly lose it because their prices would be above market rates.
Er, no.
In The Real World companies would join together to form massive conglomerates, take control of the resources and simply make entering any market impossible.
The logical conclusion of an unrestricted free market is a small number of massive corporations - if not a single one - monopolising every conceivable good and service. Entry into any market on anything more than an insignificant scale by a potential competitor would be dealt with by either a buyout or predatory below-cost selling to drive them out of business.
Currently, global corporations are well on the way to this goal, and government regulation is probably the only thing slowing them down.
Libertarians believe in capitalism which, unlike the communism you seem to espouse, DOES WORK in the real world.
Both "capitalism" and "communism" work in the real world, in moderation. Neither work as absolutes because both fall victim to people's greed.
Libertarians in the area would be in New Orleans right now sellign food at cost and water at cost and getting people fed and hydrated [...]
I'm not quite sure why you think they'd be selling these things "at cost", but I can't see anyone with a profit motive doing so - and out of "capitalism" and "communism", the latter is the one that doesn't have profit as a fundamental tenet.
from the city that used to have (and still might, from what it sounds like) the highest murder rate in the nation by far? I hope not to sound insensitive, but if you ask me, it's always been a pretty shitty place. I hope that if they rebuild something better will end up there.
What is whacko about Libertarianism, beside very enterntaining, raving madmen like that BitGeek fellow, is that it is, like Marxism, a utopian social system. That is it would "work" only if a set of make-believe conditions were met, and if those conditions are not met, it degenerates into feudalism of one sort or another. Very much like Marxism degenerates into Stalinism when its make-believe utopian conditions do not materialize.
It is quite true that hospitals, housing plans, and fossil fuels were not there before: they have been acquired. But basic human rights like the right to not be killed at the whim of someone else, freedom of speech, freedom from slavery and others were not there before either: they have been acquired through a process not very different from them one that got us hospitals. The vote for women, Rosa Parks's right to sit on a bus whereever she wanted, weekends, 8 hour work days, public education, being payed for one's work, payed vacations, basic health care, the right not to be burned, the right to a fair trial, and many more I am sure you can name, are things that were not there before they were there.
As you say, they are creations of society, as mostly everything is.
I have to admire your faith in humanity if you think that such feats of creativity on society's part would endure time if this just depended on market systems...
Darn my cynicism, but isn't it high time someone reminded us that after all those Mardi Gras parties, God's wrath was due? I mean, the total absence of hellfire and damnation surrounding this tragedy is kind of stunning. Given 9/11, the tsunami...
I dunno, did Pat Robertson use up all his jerk-quota before the hurricane hit shore?
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
So libertarians believe in non-coercion but use a definition of "non-coercion" radically different than that held by anyone else in the populace; and if you support the idea of a minimum wage this apparently makes you a socialist in libertarian eyes.
See, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes people not take libertarians seriously.
A very Sobering read, but this struck me as very odd... In the post where he's askin for supplies// " socks (white)" - wtf does it matter what COLOR they are?
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
What is whacko about Libertarianism, beside very enterntaining, raving madmen like that BitGeek fellow, is that it is, like Marxism, a utopian social system. That is it would "work" only if a set of make-believe conditions were met, and if those conditions are not met, it degenerates into feudalism of one sort or another. Very much like Marxism degenerates into Stalinism when its make-believe utopian conditions do not materialize.
Any homogenous political system will fail--period. In its purest form, every party as we know them is utopian because they're all trying to build a world on a set of ideals. It's just the "ideals for whom" that sets tyranical dictators apart from democratic parties. Thusly, the usage of the word utopia here is relative.
While I can understand your gripe, it doesn't hold water--Libertarianism isn't headed by a despotic leader who wants to genocide all in disagreeance with his political views; it's just another party who wants to put more power back where they think it belongs: in the hands of the people.
Thinking that Libertarianism is about making a complete Libertarian state is ludicrous and as undesirable as the two party system we find ourselves in today. Seriously--your argument rests on the government being overthrown by a laissez faire group in one fell swoop, and disallowing the democratic principles that Libertarians champion. This is one of the most oft-repeated arguments, and one of the most pourus as well. If someone wants to argue real-world situations, an argument such as this is about the poorest way to do so.
Might I add your flamboyant ignorance differentiates you little from that BitGeek fellow.
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
for instance, in a free market, there would be no monopolies-- because the only way monopolies can exist is when government creates them.
In a free market, if someone got monopoly power, they would quickly lose it because their prices would be above market rates.
---You didn't do too well in Economics 1, did you? There is such a thing as a natural monopoly. In a free market, if I can, to use an outrageous example, produce TVs at a cost of $25 apiece, provided I do so in batches of a million, then having a monopoly would mean that nobody could compete unless they first gather $25 million in initial production capital, plus enough to store a million TVs (that warehousing won't be free) and somehow gain the ability to sell a million TVs with no momentum. And, of course, they have to compete with the monopoly's natural defense - a sale. (selling at low/no profit or at a loss to deny sales to a competitor)
No, the market only acts as you describe for small producers without price-setting power in near-perfect or perfect competition - i.e. commodities.
If the producer who raises their prices has enough market power, then the market price as a whole will simply follow suit. In the US, the high-fructose corn syrop you see in just about everything these days comes from only four companies: Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill, Staley Manufacturing Co. and CPC International. (They control ~85% of the market.) This oligopoly was not created by any government, but by simple economics. Given a free market, these companies can charge whatever they want, because they pretty much own the market. If they raise their prices, their new price is the market price. Thus, because they own the market, they will not be corrected by it.
Or let's look at a retail chain like Wal-Mart. If Wal-Mart wants to clear out local retailers, all they have to do is sell stuff really cheap - below their competitors' costs. Of course, they'll lose money themselves, but they can subsidize that by raising prices in other areas - areas where competing retailers have already been wiped out. That kind of power pretty much ensures that any monopoly can, barring the most foolish of mismanagement, dominate and expand its market indefinitely.
And a free market most assuredly does not sell products "at cost" in a shortage situation. (the old "water more valuable than diamonds" bit)
You are standing in an open server west of a blue house, with a boarded front door. There is an Exchange mailbox here.
Maybe folks could STOP FUCKING for a bit until things get back to normal?
;)
I'm doing my part. I will only engage in anal sex, oral sex, mutual masturbation, solo maturbation (if I can get to free 'net pr0n), and possibly frottage, in solidarity with my horny nawlins brothers.
Just got a blowjob a few hours ago, and that was before I took the pledge.
So editors... please fix
This kind of proves that both the submitter and the editor did not read the article (the above is stated on line 5 of the blog, not like you really have to look for it)
The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
It's sad that some seem to get turned on by the thought of government authority commanding and murdering civilians en masse in civil emergencies. Usually fanatical movie watchers who get excited when someone "takes command" and overides those arcane "civil liberties".
It's not impossible to deal with civil unrest without massacering large groups of people.
They're your own countrymen, the thought of your own military killing even one of them "for the greater good" should make you squirm with conflict, and at best only be grudgingly accepted into your thoughts as an acceptable thing to happen on your own soil. Instead you seem almost turned on by the thought.
I'm glad you don't live near me...
Of course then there is the thought of who modded up an obviously disturbed persons thoughts.
"Two in the gut and let them roll around in water that's been filtered through a few hundred dead bodies. Infection and the sun will take them in a day or so, and they'll suffer like they deserve."
Your countrymen...
Slashdot, normal thoughts, for authoritarians.
(To those who will flame away "you support poeple raping babies and puppies and and and" no i don't. What happens happens if they get shot then, thats that, but that doesn't mean i mentally masturbate over the thought of people being murdered by their own military like the parent poster seems to).
Let me see, a party in power, which would significantly reduce or eliminate the last remaining restraints on multi-national corporations and allow rampant consolidation of ultra-wealthy companies. Then to remove all protective regulations, allow media to become completely consolidated and owned by the sellers, thus removing any independent information flow to consumers/citizens. Followed by removal of nearly all forms of government assistance to elderly and the sick etc etc. This kind of party would deliver a sledge-hammer blow to the entire society of the USA and although, luckilly, its power would be curbed at its borders, the citizens within would not be so lucky. Just look at what happened to FEMA. The same organization which handled the California erthquake or previous disasters like 9/11 is now paralysed shortly after a Libertarian was appointed its head. It wants people to donate to Pat Robertson's fatwa-issuing religious fund instead to directly assist the victims.
Any homogenous political system will fail--period. In its purest form, every party as we know them is utopian because they're all trying to build a world on a set of ideals. It's just the "ideals for whom" that sets tyranical dictators apart from democratic parties. Thusly, the usage of the word utopia here is relative.
Sure it is "relative". Some systems can fail within weeks (Marxism, Libertarianism) and some take centuries to falter (Socially-Responsible Democratic Capitalism of various stripes).
Seriously--your argument rests on the government being overthrown by a laissez faire group in one fell swoop, and disallowing the democratic principles that Libertarians champion. This is one of the most oft-repeated arguments, and one of the most pourus as well. If someone wants to argue real-world situations, an argument such as this is about the poorest way to do so.
No, my argument hinges on the true players, the already ultra-wealthy, laissez faire hyenas, who would immensly benefit from the naive goofuses calling themselves Libertarians, making way for them to take over in the short order via controlling the nations economy. That is what you seem to be missing in the whole scenario. Your silly utopia is in fact a battering ram with which these would-be robber barrons and feudal lords would smash the last remaining barriers holding them in place.
Might I add your flamboyant ignorance differentiates you little from that BitGeek fellow.
You are very long on bold proclamations and very short on actual logic.
I use directnic.com to manage my domains I think it's really got to be hard when your 30 feet under water to do any biz. My prayers go out to all the victims of this trajedy and hope the Government spends more on easing this National crisis by tapping the reserves and building more refineries and mass producing alternative fuels such as french fry grease to run our automobiles. I hope directnic is insured and that the insurance compaines get down there and start writng checks to these people.
Uh, Bush appointed a Libertarian to the head of FEMA? Are you on crack? Please provide a link to credible information to back your claim up. Also, you have a very skewed and wrong understanding of Libertarianism, or maybe you have a point of view of some fucked up version of it that you have up there in Canada. Libertarians are not all about profit. I think you are confusing Libertarian with Ayn Rand's Objectivism. Big difference. The core Libertarian view, which has been pointed out many times now but you keep ignoring it, is ultimate personal freedom with ultimate personal responsibility. In a Libertarian world charities (e.g. welfare, social security, getting much needed supplies to vicitims of hurricnaes) would operate much more smoothly since they would be run by private CHARITABLE AND NON-PROFIT organizations funded by private individuals instead of clumsy government agencies. Try to get your facts right before you post.
They got people to gather in centralized locations so that they could more effectively distribute aid. You want aid dropped randomly around the city so that these tired, half-drowned people have to swim a few blocks to get it?
It was not a perfect plan, obviously things could have been done much better. Before the hurricane, the city should have been more forceful in getting people to leave, as that was their best opportunity to get people out of the city. In hindsight there's always improvements to be made. Why don't we criticize the founders of the city for putting it in a place with restricted land access and a vulnerability to flooding?
It's rediculous to suggest that shooting at doctors and police during such an emergency is in any way justified. Just two years removed from being consumed in riots, Los Angeles somehow managed NOT to erupt in violence after the Northridge earthquake. I don't remember any shooting in San Diego when it was on fire last summer.
You deserve a good smack yourself for suggesting that these people who are risking their lives to try and help somehow deserve the violence they're facing.
Not enough people are helping, and those that do help are to blame for the problems? Absurd!
remember, altruism = a Libertarian no-no
During the 1920's and 1930's a whopping 2/3rd of Americans belonged to "mutual-aid" societies...which were different organizations that dealt with poverty, hunger and related issues. The altruism has been displaced by government programs (although, I feel they've been more than disproportionally displaced and I really don't know why.) I point this out because true altruism was alive and well not 100 years ago.
And on a technical note, altruism is a type of contract anyway. Charity is a way of assuaging guilty or freeing your conscious, in exchange for money.
But I would posit that vast majority of Libertarians I run into so far would be of the, as you defined it, objectivist-libertarian-selfish-ass type, and of the I-am-too-sexy-for-my-shit class and the gimme-gimme-screw-everyone-else sub-variety.
The odd thing is that there are so few rich Libertarians, of any type. You could count the millionaire Libertarians on two hands.
Anyone with an armchair understanding of economics and a slight interest in libertarianism just lost that interest. Other responders have already pointed out the practical flaws behind concepts that, even in theory, you are wrong about. I won't belabor the point, or drum up Smith again.
I'm struggling to actually find a sentence in your post that can be seen as true or accurate with even a moderate respect for rational thought. I know a few libertarians. A couple of them would be angry at how stupidly their ideas are being represented, but one of them would just plainly love it. He's merely a libertarian to be a troll when talking about politics.
Let me see, a party in power, which would significantly reduce or eliminate the last remaining restraints on multi-national corporations and allow rampant consolidation of ultra-wealthy companies. Then to remove all protective regulations, allow media to become completely consolidated and owned by the sellers, thus removing any independent information flow to consumers/citizens. Followed by removal of nearly all forms of government assistance to elderly and the sick etc etc.
What country are you in? If the party in power in your country can automatically mandate everything it wants, I'm sorry...maybe you should considering moving? I'll sponsor you at your local US consulate for your visa application--no, really.
Like I said, any system that's only one party (or the party in power has absolute power, without checks and balances) is doomed from the get go. Even though you quote it in the parent, you missed it. I know I forgot an e in homogeneous, but is that any reason to not look the word up?
Sure it is "relative". Some systems can fail within weeks (Marxism, Libertarianism) and some take centuries to falter (Socially-Responsible Democratic Capitalism of various stripes).
Your misunderstanding of my usage of relative utopia was amusing. To bring your ego back, though, I meant utopia for one person isn't utopia for another. I, for instance (and contrary to your later assertation) am very much against the traditional utopia--my personal utopia is that of a world in constant flux, changing and challenging, one where my own views don't rule over. Would I like to see a Libertarian president someday? Absolutely. Would I like to see a congress whose membership is half-or-more Libertarian? Hell no. Personal view, so take it for what it's worth (and I just know you will!)
No, my argument hinges on the true players, the already ultra-wealthy, laissez faire hyenas, who would immensly benefit from the naive goofuses calling themselves Libertarians, making way for them to take over in the short order via controlling the nations economy. That is what you seem to be missing in the whole scenario. Your silly utopia is in fact a battering ram with which these would-be robber barrons and feudal lords would smash the last remaining barriers holding them in place.
You're right--because if Libertarians had their way, no one would be accountable for anything. There'd be no due process, there'd be no environmental laws at all, and every player in business would conspire. That's why the media gives Libertarianism so much play, and why the LP gets so many "donations" from businesses who want so much power.
You are very long on bold proclamations and very short on actual logic.
I apologize if my responses seem odd--afterall, I am debating things you wrote.
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
Well it is said that "Civilization is 3 meals away from barbarianism"
I'll go one further. WTF is up with the government? Weren't all their efforts in the past four years supposed to prepare for a national tragedy /exactly like this/? Wasn't DHS set up to promote cooperation with all the agencies?
True, I rather suspect they where expecting to deal with a city nuked by terrorists or something of the like, but wouldn't the consequences be exactly what we are seeing in NO today? So WTF have the agencies been doing the past years?
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
Repeat after me, those people down there need
FOOD, clean WATER and MEDICAL SUPPLIES!
What are they thinking, flying a FedEx plane all the way from New York to bring in supplies (ok saw this on CNN, but anyway...)
For all I know they would consider flying in Moon dust by Apollo landers to fill the breached levees!
Why oh why can't they save the time and stop the waste of fuel for people who need it and commandeer the surplus of every Wal-Mart in a zwundred mile radius and just start carpet food/water dropping it to those desperate people? That would require only a fraction of the fuel needed to fly in FedEx from friggin' NYC.
I really don't get what's in those peoples' minds anymore.
The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
...the hurricanes have already won.
The problem with FEMA preparedness and intervention goes a bit higher up.
I can't make up my mind. First I hear about National Guardsmen given "shoot to kill" orders, Bush asking for a paltry 10 billion in aid (as opposed to 80 billion for Iraq this year - I guess a New Orleans citizen is worth 1/8th of an Iraqi citizen?), helicopters dropping sandbags instead of food, and Bush and congress were all on vacation when this went down. And now I come on Slashdot and read people saying, in effect, that because they didn't clear out of town when they were told, it's all their own damn fault?
Remember, 1 out of 3 New Orleans citizens live at or below poverty level. What can you do when you have no car? How can you hear a warning if you don't have a TV set or radio? How can you evacuate when you're told to go to a convention center and wait for a bus that never shows up?
The storm was devestating. The response and aftermath are sickening.
Fuck you.
Tell me how it goes when your country is demolished.
Cheers.
At cost? Why? Why would you ever sell at cost?
I guess you don't own your own business.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
I assumed the list was a starting point and a reminder.
If you have a church, you ought to know whether or not you can trust their relief work.
In fact, if you attend regularly, you probably aren't here, but are on your way to help in whatever way your local group is helping.
If you are volunteering, volunteer with the group that you work best with. If you are donating, donate to the group you work best with. (If you're wondering why I'm here and not volunteering, I'm not in the country, so there isn't much I can do right now.)
Heh, welcome to capitalism.
Anarchy has a sort of double meaning. Originally, anarchism (as political movement) and libertarian socialism were synonymous, although the meanings have diverged a bit since then. Especially in the US.
This is general politics in action. You have the local people and politicians in NO who really did not prepare for it. In fact, they made things very bad by overdeveloping the area. There is no doubt that many a politician was paid top dollar to look the otherway and allow building under the ocen level.
Then to top it, a very inept president. He should have had help there MUCH faster than this. What is interesting is reading the top blogs on this. It sounds like federal agents are only protecting the rich areas. My guess is that these are marching orders from above. How far up is another question for a later time (that is, if the press will go back to doing their jobs and quite rolling over).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I mean...yeah...that's some rough shit...but come ON! Three days has just passed since the storm hit and it's anarchy already. It's not like nobody is coming...they are...it's just all fucked up. If you can't keep your shit together for three days....man....I dunno...
Blar.
Well played sir...but the 'do something constructive' rang a little sour considering this is Slashdot and if it can't be done constructively with a keyboard it usually isn't done at all :D
Blar.
You deserve a real big smack man..
If you can't join in a reasonable discussion of this nature (in reply to some quite reasonably expressed sentiments by the parent poster) without resulting to threats of physical violence like a knuckle dragging goon, it's a good indicator that your probably don't have as much meaningful insight to share as you think you do.
From the nature of your post I can quite imagine it's people with your sort of attitude that are those behaving the most despicably in the area's effected.
This is just trollish nonsense for a start: "they're complaining that people are shooting at them, which is wrong, these people are mentally in survivor mode and if you don't have food or water then you don't matter". They are the usual underclass scum (who are looting for goods and money, not survival) and have no intention of behaving reasonably they are simply exploiting the situation for personal gain.
And however much you might want to think it's true that "These people, if they were able, probably DID put aside food and water." basic common sense is enough to know it's not going to be true in the vast majority of cases. What's closer to the truth is, they just thought "they would be fine".
Even though they live in an area prone to flooding and hurricanes and that lies below sea level they thought "they would be fine", so they lived their anyway. Even as other people who heeded the warnings and actually evacuated in advance (thus not costing tax payers tens of thousands of dollars per individual to evacuate after the disaster) - they thought "they would be fine", so they stayed.
As you put it:
"It's just totally wrong. Even an 8 year old could figure it out".
Well then, I guess all of florida and Texas should have evacuated north then by your logic eh? It was going to hit somewhere!
Evacuating areas you don't need to is bad for the reasons I already listed. If you know a hurricane is coming you can always throw some clothes in a bag, make sure the car is gassed up, and then leave once you know it's really going to hit (the 24 hour notice).
NOT moving them out surely is going to be a "major disruption" to some people i.e. being DEAD and all...
That makes a pretty damn good arguement for leaving the area once you know it's coming. Lots of them didn't.
Ever considered people who a) are poor and didn't know there was public transport available to move them out? b) were unable to move because they are too sick/disabled/emotionally disturbed to move out?
Certainly there were some elderly and sick people who couldn't easily move. Of course I feel bad for them. The vast majority of people you see on TV down there, however, were QUITE capable of *walking* 10 miles across town to higher ground if that was their only means of transport and escaping likely drowning. It's those idiots I don't feel sorry for.
If those idiots had left like they were supposed to, the job of bussing out, sheltering, or rescuing those who were too sick or infirm to move themselves would be much much easier.
You mean like the civil unrest that occurs when artificially low prices spark panic buying and people fight and claw to get every drop of gas they can while they can because there isn't going to be any tomorrow?
Remember the Apple notebook riot? This is what has happened, does happen and will always happen every single time with every single commodity in strong demand that is priced significantly below market price. IKEA had a grand opening with incredible deals on couches and they had a riot. WalMart has annual obscene Thanksgiving sales on DVD players and they usually see a person or two get trampled. What on this great, big, wide earth could possibly give you the idea that people won't erupt into general civil disorder when gas that is worth $8/gallon is sold at $3? Every now and then some gas station will have some promotion or another, usually in cahoots with a local radion station where gas will be sold for the station's frequency (97.1, 100.5, etc) or some other such thing. When these promotions were selling the gas for 40 cents below market value there was bedlam, lines for 1/2 a mile and invariably a fight or three.
During the great midwestern blackout the other summer gas was in tight supply because most stations didn't have power for their pumps. Those stations that -did- have power promptly saw a long line of people who were topping off the tanks of their SUVs and their boats because the owners were afraid that if they didn't fuel up today they wouldn't be able to go boating next week. This did not please the others in line and there were, as always some arguments and fights. If gas priced had been allowed to hit $3.50/gallon they would have bought only what they needed, and you wouldn't have had nervous crowds of 200 cars lined up just waiting for a single spark to trigger a riot. You also wouldn't have needed to have all those cops sitting around watching people pump gas - they could have been out doing much more useful things, such as patrolling the darkened neighborhoods watching for looters.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
I thought most places in the US had a law like this...making it illegal to not render assistence to someone in need. I hope they prosecute those greedy bastards grabbing luxury items and pushing to the front of the line and causing riots. If they survive that is. What a mess.
Blar.
That's because in Atlanta $5-6/gallon still isn't the fair market value. When the city is quickly burning through a ten day supply (did they get that pipeline back up?) the let's-prevent-gouging ilk are trying to make sure that everything is business-as-usual until the end when in reality a time of dire crisis (and this qualifies) is not a time to make sure that everybody can still get to the movies, the strip club or the tractor pull. It isn't business as usual. People need to drive the absolute bare-minimum and the only reasonable way of ensuring that they do is to allow the market to force them.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
There is one thing I don't understand.
There was a Tsunami that killed 250.000 people and destroyed homes for 4.000.000 and there have been no reports of hospitals being looted, snipers shooting at patients, people looting a whole city, etc, etc.
I'm sure the NRA will find a way to blame the Democrats, maybe 'see... if they didn't ban assault rifles, the honest people could defend themselves against full gangs!'?
This is crazy.
One of the standard answers to the question "why do drugs cost so much money in the US" is "they have to subsidize the drugs sold to other nations at below-market cost". Medical care (any commodity) will always cost what it costs or said commodity will no longer be available. Living in a border area I see a steady stream of Americans going to Canada for cheap drugs and a steady stream of Canadians coming to America to see oncologists for whom they would be waiting months to see in Canada. People in Yellowknife can't get an appointment with a cancer specialist tomorrow and people in Topeka can't get Tamoxifen for 60% off. But it works well for people in Detroit, Toledo or Buffalo...
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
Does the fact that everybody carries a firearm make you feel safer now?
Does "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms" really help in a emergency situation?
I think not.
It has made it much harder to give help to the majority of defensless people an given power to the animals and looters.
Before the hurricane, the city should have been more forceful in getting people to leave, as that was their best opportunity to get people out of the city.
Not to be judgmental or condescending, but if you don't heed a mandatory evacuation, then it's down to just you and Darwin.
Note that what we're arguing over isn't "artificially low prices" it's lying about the scarcity in order to raise the so-called actual price, while in actuality there is plenty to go around at the normal price, and hey, you can even restock at the normal price too!
Do you actually believe in a free market? Or do you just have wet dreams about making millions of dollars as you walk over the bodies of anyone in your way? Do you really just want a "free market" where the government can't interfere, but the people are simply kept in the dark and forced to make buying decisions based on lies and misinformation?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
In the private lab in Canada, you wouldn't either, assumnig you had insurance. If you have no insurance, at least in Canada you'd have the option of having your mammogram taken at all.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
When you are shooting at buses, ambulances, helicopters, police, etc., that's NOT survival mode. That is more correctly, "Road Warrior" mode.
Figuring out a way purify and drink the water that flooded your house, that's survival mode. Figuring out a way to cook that coon that was up on your roof, that's survival mode. Shooting at the looters trying to steal what's left of your grandmothers silver, that's survival mode.
Trying to steal a large plasma screen TV in the middle of that, that's just being a very low-life criminal.
Usurper_ii
Ron Paul
we need to have a study on areas surrounded by volcanos or other major natural disasters that will occur someday.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
DirectNIC used to be me registrar of choice. My first domain ever was purchased through them. They were my training wheels in the world of internet domains and hosted my accounts for years.
I fired them back in July when I moved the last of my hosted accounts from DirectNIC over to GoDaddy.
It was purely for business reasons. But God, I feel terrible for them. I feel like I abandoned them even though I know my little domains probably never mattered to them. Just one of many customers.
And as of yesterday, the customer control panel was still working!
I am deeply impressed with their courage and bravery in the face of the terrible situation.
Good luck and God bless -and keep the ammo dry!
Sig for hire.
What about the The Posse Comitatus Act ?
I see soldiers being deployed in the area, but isn't that forbidden by that act ?
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
Florida?! What the hell are they thinking?!
Again, leave this to the pros (Bell South).
ROFL! retard alert! cjsnell is a retard!
These guys have been called upon by the bell south guys to help them because they can't do it themselves.
Leave it to the pros? ROFL!
cjsnell is a retard who can't think!
Can anyone explain me what the Department of Homeland Security really is? Because I've been thinking it was a crisis center that can react on any disasters by nature, "terrorists" or whatever. 3 days for evacuation for a million dollar department? plundering? Is New Orleans such a big city to support and guard for looting? Why don't they use water purification units or tablets? It was known something huge, big enormous was coming; why didn't they start evacuating?
...
I wonder where your money really is going to?
I'm impressed and kudos to the guy who keeps up the good work though, he seems to be taking his work more serious than some others running the country
no offense intended to anyone of'course...
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Every year? When was the last time a hurricane hit New Orleans? When was the last time ANYTHING like this happened?
The Gulf Coast is hit by hurricanes every year. It's like throwing darts at that whole area, and New Orleans isn't a bit different than Galveston (remember when that was totally removed from the map?) or any of the towns that were devastated by Camille, which caused incredible destruction. If San Fransisco gets the same earthquake again that it did 100 years ago, you'll see similar horror - though not the sort of swampiness. The difference is that the people choosing to live in New Orleans have picked a spot that's below sea level and about which phrases like "dodged a bullet this time" and "next time we won't be so lucky" are routinely used whenever a storm twitches a hair to the east or west of it.
But fuck, keep blaming the victims. Don't you feel better about yourself now?
Are you even following the context of this thread? The whole point is that the comment I responded to said that there was "no sign" of any relief, no food, no water, nothing being done. My entire point is that even as that guy was writing that comment, thousands of people were getting showers and a meal in Texas, dozens of military and private helicopters had been flying supplies in and people out non-stop, 24x7, and there were thousands of people flowing in to help.
The worst of the misery that we're seeing now would have been greatly alleviated if more people - instead of blaming the government - had actually listened to the countless warnings for days before this happened. I can't believe that I'm seeing ablebodied people who walked away from their homes, able to pull jammed suitcases with them, but who are yelling that the government hasn't given them any water since Monday. How can you not have $5 worth of bottled water ready in a backpack or that same rolling suitcase when you've been watching that storm on your TV for days before hand?
People are being RAPED
So, you've got thousands of New Orleans citizens gathered together in the spots where the supplies are coming in, and the buses are pulling people out. Thousands. How does someone, standing amid thousands of their fellow citizens, just stand by while someone rapes someone else? That is the government's fault?
People are DEAD. Yes, it was a horribly deadly storm, just as predicted.
are infants dying in the fucking streets and your focus is on blaming them, their parents.
No, my focus, in the context of this thread, is to point out the nonsense in the comment to which I replied, which stated that no one was doing anything to help. It is up to each of use to do what we can to not burden emergency services (who should be focusing on the babies the elderly, and so on) with BS like not carrying some drinking water in the face of a well advertised, monster storm approaching an area where the local culture is very familiar with seasonal storms, flooding, and tropical heat.
Their houses are now under nine feet of water.
That water did not rise so fast that at least a majority of them couldn't have a few liters of drinking water in a damn shopping bag, if nothing else. Not everyone can be expected to, but more people sure should have. Of course we're not hearing from (or about) the people that absolutely did prepare, and throw what they'd need in a couple of book bags - because that's not as horrific to watch or hear about.
It is the government's JOB to maintain law and order, and they.. have.. FAILED
And it's the citizens' job to not loot electronics stores in the middle of a crisis, to not shoot at boats and helicopters, and to not hang out in a crowd of their stressed-out neighbors deciding it's a fine time to rape someone. The reason there was a mandatory evacuation order in advance of this, on top of the non-stop news reports of exactly how
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
You Sir, are an idiot.
... because I'm sure there's nothing more the destitute people dying of hunger and thirst in NO would like to do than update their blogs.
Some of this behavious is still simply inexcusable. Scared and angry I can understand but when you start shooting at your rescuers and raping the women and forming gangs and trying to take power...
No excuses for that. Absolutely none.
Blar.
Bullshit like this gets modded as insightful? For Chrissakes, mods!
People are born where they are born.
True. And they are definitely impacted by whether or not their parents provide them with enough backbone to realize that they can live 20 or 30 miles away from where they were born... and not below sea level in a habitually poor, corrupt city that roles dice with hurricanes every year.
If you've watched much of the coverage most of those left behind are poor and black.
Yup, just like much of the population that was also devestated in Mississippi and Alabama. That is the main demographic in the urban south, no question.
As a matter of fact more than a few of those interviewed said they couldn't even afford a tank of gas to get out, let alone the price of lodging and food.
No question that if you're on public assistance, etc., you're not likely to be able to afford a hotel room somewhere. But so much of the misery we're watching could have been avoided if more (just some more!) of the people who didn't get out under the mandatory evacuation, had put aside $5 worth of water and $15 worth of food in a $5 duffle bag as they watched that huge storm approach for days. There is no one, no matter how poor, that has grown up on the gulf coast without understanding the consequences of a hurricane on their power, water, and food supplies. If just some of that complacency had been avoided by the city and its long-term residents, the emergency folks would have been able to concentrate much more effectively on the people who were not physically capable of carrying a few gallons' water supply and four days' worth of snack bars and canned beans.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
I've often wondered why the feds (FEMA) don't create a disaster relief ship (operated by the coast guard). I would imagine a decommishioned amphibious assault ship would be great for this. Convert the ship into a command center/mobile hospital and have one on each coast ready to ship out at a moments notice. The ship would already be equipped to handle rotorcraft and can also launch and retrieve boats very easily.
Most natural distasters in the US (and most of the world, for that matter) occur on the coast, so setting a staging point from a ship makes a lot of sense.
I would imagine this ship should be ready to go at a moments notice and would require a minimum crew to operate. When we see a potentially deadly hurricane approaching the coast, have the ship trail behind the hurricane. If the hurricane doesn't cause much damage...well...it was a good training exercise for the crew.
Would this be expensive? Absolutely...but would it save lives? Yes. Better than a lot of other pork barrel projects I can think of.
You know, it doesn't surprise me at all that someone posted this, especially as AC. I've been around
I guess I'm just not jaded enough yet, to be unfazed by someone wasting an "Insightful" mod point on it, especially on an AC post.
"Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
Perhaps when it is rebuilt it is done right and will be able to withstand a major hurricane as well as any other city might.
It is not clear that New Orleans will should be completely rebuilt. A majority of homes, particularly in low income areas in the east, are not insured against flooding. Where will the funding come from? The inhibitants would be a lot better off elsewhere, above sea level. New Orleans' levy system is clearly inadequate. It seems to me if it is going to be upgraded some better decisions must be made about what parts of the city should be protected. Then it should be engineered to actual protect them, not be there for looks.
Even if you don't appreciate culture and history, at least you might consider your increased gas prices. Wars have been started for these types of things :)
Locals in every corner of the country are convinced of the same thing. Fact is the French Quarter has become a cheap attraction and a charactature of itself. The St. Charles district is ok. I think Savannah or Charleston are nicer. The food is overrated. The city wallows in proverty, crime, and violence.
an ill wind that blows no good
That New Orleans will go down in history as the first city lost to global climate change.
The irony that America should be the first victim of global climate change is only overshadowed by the irony of Bush personally profiting by millions of dollars because of rising petroleum prices.
There was extreme looting and rioting in Baghdad the first week after the US takeover despites tens of thousands of coalition troops in each major city. It might be human nature to panic or abuse in such considitions. There were no operational utilities, terrible weather and shortages of all kinds too. We kid ourselves thinking the US is "special" and above this all. It might just be human nature.
Florida voted republican. Do those people left behind in new orleans look like republican voters?
"I'm watching an interview right now with people sitting on top of an overpass eating military MREs (meals-ready-to-eat, as consumed in the thousands by our troops every day) that were just dropped off by a Navy chopper. Their response? That the food is "impossible to eat" since it's cold. Incredible. "
Impossible to eat since it's cold???? Are these people too lazy or too stupid to read the freaking boxes that the MREs come in. A little splash of water into the heater pack and bingo, a few minutes later you have a nice hot meal!
Granted, they aren't the best tasting dishes in the world, but they really aren't that bad.... especially if you haven't eaten in a while.
WTF - the president being inept? He warned everyone on that region to LEAVE (let me make sure you read the word LEAVE aka get out LEAVE) 2 full days before the catastrophe happened; I forget who did you say was inept (you remember that LEAVE thing).
The president has sent war ship to help supply the region. This is a stretch of his delegated powers. Imagine what the states would be saying if this was an effort to thwart only looting like what happened in the Rodney King thing. Sure help us when its bad but only when we mess up and cant save ourselves. You can't blame the president. He said LEAVE. He has sent troops to help, battle ships, hover craft. The president can only do so much until he exposes himself into an awkward situation of being impeached for overuse of federal powers. The state is supposed to run state issues. The Feds can only help with Fed matters. Like it or not that is the structure of the government.
Especially with the prospect of sea level rise, it seems only logical to me to start again. Preferably somewhere above sea level. It would be a massive project, but then it may well be easier and cheaper than trying to recover. I doubt they will move though, they will just continue to throw more and more money at holding back the sea.
"Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings. For there is none worthy of the name but God, whom heaven, earth and sea obey" Canute the Great, King of 'England' circa 1016, sat on his thrown on the beach telling the sea to retreat... sound familiar.My spelling isn't bad, I'm evolving the language
Do the directions come with each MRE? Are they in an obvious place or are they tucked away somewhere? Also, there may be the mentality, "Fuck the directions - I'm in a disaster area, I'm not going to be able to follow the directions to cook this thing, so I won't bother to read them." Or, "fuck the directions, I'm STARVING!!"
Female Prison Rape in NY
Thank you, Maximus.
"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
http://home.austin.rr.com/fema/
Are you nuts
Have you heard the lame FEMA director? Sure, they told people to go to a central location, but they didn't even know about the Convention Center until yesterday. How does that work again?
I also remember that on two seperate occasions (Gulf War I and II), we were able to move hundreds of thousands of troops --- and supplies --- halfway across the world to fight an extended war. Yes, I realize it's the military but it shows that it is possible.
And you are suggesting that the complexity of this is beyond our capabilities? C'mon. ANYTHING can be done. It's a matter of money and resources. And I *know* our country has more resources that any country on earth.
I used to buy the "we are trying our hardest"...until now. It's been 4 days and we can't even seem to get the basic necessities to these people. How the hell does that happen? Why aren't the choppers dropping pallets of food, water, and medicine? Why aren't there evacs going on 24/7? Why aren't there Nat'l guardsmen keeping the order? You can say that all of these things are going on - and they are to a small extent. But it's a matter of scale. And we didn't scale very well to this one.
The real gougers are Bush's oil buddies (Bush's family made their money in oil).
They're the ones who are selling you the wholesale gas at $2.50/gallon instead of $1.00 a gallon.
You, as the retailer are, as you said, pretty much screwed. You have to raise your prices b/c your supplier did, but you get the rep as a "price gouger."
Meanwhile, BP, Shell, and all the other LARGELY FOREIGN OWNED oil companies are raking in extra BILLIONS of dollars.
A woman in a bar I was in last night remarked that when the tsunami hit, the US helicopters were there hours later droppping food and fresh water, but here it is 3 days after the storm and people are dying of thirst.
Another country has a disaster, we're there to help. We have a disaster, the rest of the world sees an opportunity to make tons of cash from our misery.
What is saddest about this situation is that some people have no compassion, shame, or human feelings. And I'm not talking about looters, I'm talking about oil companies.
Evil God damned sons of bitches. If I hear of any oil company executives being murdered, I'll cheer.
> Not to be judgmental or condescending, but if you don't heed a mandatory evacuation, then it's down to
> just you and Darwin.
Nah, that's more ignorant and assinine.
Exactly how are the hospital patients supposed to get out of town?
How about those without cars? Public transit couldn't keep up.
How about those that don't have hundreds of spare dollars to spent on public transit & hotel rooms?
Really? How many of the crimes being committed down there right now involve legally obtained firearms? My guess is less than five percent (figure pulled firmly from ass). Most of the idiots doing this either had illicit weapons before hand or have looted gun stores.
If anything it makes me want to increase the number of concealed carry permits available to law abiding citizens. At this point it is obvious that the police cannot do their job, so your self-preservation falls to.. tada! Yourself!
Want to rape my wife? Want to take a pot shot at me? Want to take my stuff? Meet Mr.
You're comparing this to the events in Los Angeles & San Diego? You're either stupid or woefully misinformed about what is happening in New Orleans right now. I suggest you start paying more attention because this mess is not over. We are witnessing a complete breakdown here. And Panaflex was not suggesting that anyone "deserved" to be shot at. Youargue here without paying any attention to what is being said. It's a reflection of all that is wrong today with the "dialogue" between both "sides" in America today. Go back an re-read what was posted before spouting off with your sanctimonious crap. Really, it's so fucking depressing to see the absolute ignorance of such a a large portion of American citizens these days.
"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
Ok BitGeek. Time to take your medicine now. There there its going to be alright. Just let me get this white jacket with the really long sleeves onto you. There we go...easy...easy.....ok now just let me get this funny looking hat with the ballgag on you ok there we go. All better now.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
1. The evacuation, too little, too late, and poorly planned. "Mandatory evacuation" in NO apparently meant something else. 75% or so of the city got out, the remaining 25% didn't and are paying the price.
2. Contingency plans for handling catastrophic levee failure either non-existent, or grossly inadequate.
3. Civil disorder should have been addressed with deadly force on day 1 of the disaster, when the deterrent effect could have positively influenced events over the next few days. Now it's too late, and valuable time and resources have been wasted that could have otherwise been used for rescue and evacuation.
4. Post-disaster priorities needed to be set and acted upon. Evacuate the city, secure the hospitals and critical facilities.
5. Local government needs to plan for these things, and prepare to cope for a few days without outside aid. It takes time for the federal bureaucracy to get things moving.
6. People need to be more resilient and forward thinking. Sorry folks, but the only one who can protect you and your loved ones is you. Prepare to bug out in case of a disaster, and prepare to hunker down in case you can't bug out. Water, food, shelter, clothing, medical supplies, weapons, and the knowledge to use them all.
7. If you live in a flood area, you're going to get flooded. Don't live there, or lay on plans and resources to evacuate in case things get bad.
What is whacko about Libertarianism, beside very enterntaining, raving madmen like that BitGeek fellow, is that it is, like Marxism, a utopian social system. That is it would "work" only if a set of make-believe conditions were met, and if those conditions are not met, it degenerates into feudalism of one sort or another. Very much like Marxism degenerates into Stalinism when its make-believe utopian conditions do not materialize.
And what's happening in Iraq, a failed secular capitalist state? The lesson we learn from this is that even if a workable social model is used if the culture is not ready for it, and if the wrong means are used. Rushing a trasnition like that by means of revolution is likely to go bad. After all,
you can't blow up a social relationship.
My point is that any social model may be workable
in the right situations. Look at Sparta for
instance. At one time pederasty was as common as little league (more, actually) Yet by all accounts this was a very successful society. The founding fathers picked Athens as a model for our government not because it was objectively better, but because it was a better match for who we were as a people at the time.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
With as little respect as possible I will say this:
you're a fucking opportunistic vulture devoid of humanity, you're taking the opportunity to communicate your slanderous take on politics using, and taking advantage of, people who are dying right this instant.
I doubt you have the faculties to actually understand what you did so please consider killing yourself right now so as to do humanity a favour.
And whatever retards modded the parent insightful are asked to seriously consider their actions: do you people realize how low this shit the parent posted is?
If people stoop as low as this just to bash Bush OR ANY OTHER PERSON they are in no way whatsoever part of any solution to any problem - wise up people you've got a brain AND a heart, use both.
And leave the goddamned blame-game to until well after the catastrophy is dealt with (and if you're aiming to be really helpful don't fall into the blame-game at all but do the truly useful stuff instead).
I'm grateful the parent is not representative for the human race in general.
Do the directions come with each MRE?
The directions are printed directly on the heating bag (with pictures) in plain english. They are not on a seperate peice of paper or something like that. THere is also plent of other things to eat in the bag while waiting the 30-60 seconds for the main meal to heat up.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
threats of physical violence like a knuckle dragging goon
Yeah, go ahead and compare me to a thug stealing TVs in NOLA.
What's closer to the truth is, they just thought "they would be fine".
Yes, many people thought they would make it through, but those same people had axes and staples.
Even as other people who heeded the warnings and actually evacuated in advance [...] they thought "they would be fine", so they stayed.
You've missed the point entirely - there was NO PLACE TO GO. Some people are poor (a lot of people in Louisiana to be brutally honest), others have duties such as care for the elderly, doctors, family. Others were tourists that COULD NOT GET OUT.
You seem to be completely lacking in reality, assuming that everyone has cash, a car, and a place to stay?
Wake up and smell the coffee bud.. the vast majority of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, and risking a hurricane may be just as dreadful as being completely broke.. they both lead to the homeless shelter.
I'm tired of smart comments like this that have no sympathy - nay even empathy for suffering people.
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
Wasting your money, of course.
It's real convenient to blame the people stuck in the middle of this shitstorm, but the DHS is an utter and adject failure. Nothing they have done, from airport security on up, has been anything but an unqualified disaster.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
and you sir have the funniest post i have ever seen on the slashdots.
i tip my hat to you sir!
And many Americans come to Canada for free health services. And many Americans and Canadians go to Europe for specialized treatment, and many Europeans go to Asia for cheaper yet better treatment, and many Asians go to Europe, US, or Canada for free/better treatment. It's called freedom, what's your point? A few examples and anecdotes don't prove that one system is broken or the other is better. At best, they prove that world economy is working and that airplanes are actually Good Things.
Which is precisely what I am trying to make you see. Libertarians are to billionaires as what suicide bomber "martyrs" are to the likes of Osama. A set of disposable tools to an end of gaining unlimited power. They encourage you, fund your "learned" discussions, grant you a platform to reach wide audience, while laughing their heads off behind your back.
Just as one example, there are some libertarians who argue that corporations themselves represent an unwanted government interference in "the market" (since they are purely a legal fiction anyway). Those libertarians are hardly likely to "reduce or eliminate the last remaining restraints on multi-national corporations" - they're more likely to elimnate the laws that allow corporations to exist in the first place.
No, the idiots who had the ability to leave and did not when ordered to evacuate caused this. You cannot in any seriousness tell me that with all the cars I see floating in NO on TV that most of those couldn't have driven a few hours inland to where it would be safe.
I personally know 3 folks who got the hell out of dodge as Katrina came barreling in. They're all fine. Sure, their stuff and jobs may or may not be gone, but they were never in personal danger. Except maybe for the one who drove straight through to central IL, that's a long drive to drive alone.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
We get our state to help us out in need.
Just to chip in: I am certainly no scholar of Chinese history, but this guy makes a pretty good argument that China became a huge state long before transportation, communications, or mathematics could support it, largely because the regular huge floods made it a necessity to be able to help large areas by gathering stuff from an even larger one.
I am watching from Europe and frankly, everybody here is just baffled and can't comprehend what's up with the US.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
This is normal, this is how disasters actually are, turn on CNN or search the net for the interview with Jan Egeland on this, he's more knowledgeable that either one here and he said this is how big disasters are - simply because it is unfeasible to do enough stuff fast enough for anyone - and that it always gets worse in the period of 5-6-7 days after the disaster before getting better.
So don't be disappointed in America: the U.S. is no more a superman nation than any other. Yes people within the U.S. and outside, people pro-american or anti, all have some tendency to overestimate the might and power of the U.S. of A. in some respect or other - but that doesn't make it true that so is the case, and indeed it is not.
What you are seeing is a natural disaster, but the important bit is that you're seeing it from a close perspective, much closer than the tsunami, almost from the inside out because of the extensive media coverage and much more so because it happens inside the U.S.A. on the front porch of some of the biggest media in the world.
It's simple: no amount of knowledge can really prepare anyone for the reality of such a massive disaster, so it will always have an element of surprise even when one knows it's coming. The only thing that really can make people understand is living through it or to a lesser extent having been involved directly on the scene in previous disasters.
(Not an example that does the above or the situation justice but it's a bit similar to experiencing a real 3rd world slum for the first time, you might have seen it plenty on tv but nothing you see will ever prepare you for the shock of actually being there which is something completely different)
That being said I think the silver lining of this awful disaster is that with the intimate media coverage it might actually help a lot of people begin to understand if they realize just how extremely big of an event this was (especially in New Orleans).
All this is not meant as an excuse not to try to do better and aim higher for the future, so please do not take it that way - yes there have been failures, things everybody agrees should have been way different.
My heart goes out to all affected.
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
If it is the facility I am thinking of, they put them on the center of a bridge and surrounding them with guards. They weren't given a hall pass...
"As the intrepid kobold companion continues his journey, he begins to wonder... if priests raises dead, why anybody die?
"/. away. Sits atop four GigE, and a load balanced www cluster."
i dont think that matters as of 8:30am PST second of sept, its dead jim.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
12:47 am Time for my beauty sleep -- if you've seen me on cam tonight (red shirt), you know I need it.
6:36 am When Bravo Team becomes functional this morning, we're going to do a Medium Range Recon Patrol around our section of the CBD.
I've watched enough Star Trek to feel VERY bad about this plan.
sich heil! das ist so offtopic.
...because Plutonians are teh suck
I tried to get a job at this company a few years back. They kind of dropped the ball, with poor communication, and didn't work out. Dispite that, I still have my domains registered their (at the time, they were the cheapest). And my father has put some of his clients on their hosting packages.
After working at SBC, and now at Yahoo, BCP - Business Continuity Plan and DR Disaster Recovery have been driving forces for the companies, especially post 9-11.
My point is, (especially if I would have been there) is that BCP/DR would have been a point I harped on. New Orleans is below sea level, and over the last 5 years, there has been many reports and specials about what would happen if a category 5 hurricane hit New Orleans. At the price of colocation and hosting, its a commodity these days, renting a rack a few hundred miles away, and then failing over to the data center remotely sounds good to me.
Maybe this is financially unfeasible for this small company. But I think anyone in IT right now knows exactly what I'm talking about. Regardless of how big or small your company is, Nerds (and hopefully the business people too) - take notice. Talk about, plan, and be ready to implement your DR/BCP plan.
What would you do if your city, Somecity, USA is evacuated ?
Two words: mandatory evacuation.
They all knew this was coming. Read an article in National Geographic that predicted all of this. It's downright prophetic.
The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level--more than eight feet below in places--so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.
Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.
Do you place any blame on those who stayed behind? I know for some it is impossible to move (elderly, handicapped), but I'm seeing a crapload of people who look healthy enough to wade through hip deep water. WTF were they doing staying in New Orleans? It was a mandatory evacuation. I'm sorry for the pain these people are going through, but you have to place some blame at their feet, don't you?
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.
http://iraqnow.blogspot.com/2005/09/logistics-of-d isaster-relief.html
The logistics of disaster relief operations
I didn't think that Ann Althouse would panic, but she did, in a way that would make MoDo proud.
There's something called "logistics." Check it out.
You cannot just snap your fingers and make the military suddenly appear somewhere.
Nor can you legally send federal troops willy-nilly to shoot looters, courtesy of the Posse Comitatus act. You should know this, Ann. You're a lawyer by profession. You shouldn't need a dumb grunt to explain it to you.
But watch for much of our news commentary and public debate to predicate itself around a vast ignorance of logistical capacity and principals.
For instance: Suppose you got a brigade worth of troops (5,000 or so) available,. How are you going to support them? How will you transport them? Think organic trans is sufficient? Think again. Even at 100% operational readiness, a typical infantry battalion can only self transport perhaps a company at a time. And if every soldier is bringing a rucksack and a dufflebag, you're really talking about maybe two platoons. And unless you expect the unit to become a drain on local resources, every company is going to take a half truck or more of MREs and a half truck or more of bottled water, along with its own water trailers. I've seen it happen. I've done it. I've been a battalion S4 in combat, an HHC XO for dozens of major moves of a hundred miles or more, and an HHC company commander for six hurricane mobilizations.
Now, you can use busses. But only if you take busses away from the immediate mission of transporting people out of the most severely affected areas of New Orleans. Well, suppose a 44 passenger bus has a round trip of a half day between a National Guard armory in Texas. That bus can not even transport a platoon of soldiers in a single day (and will have to refuel somewhere.) But that same bus, if you keep it in New Orleans, can make as many as 8 or 10 trips back and forth, and evacuate maybe 600 to 800 people, assuming an hour round trip between an affected area and a safe area.
So which do you choose? My money's on the evac.
But suppose you stripped the evac effort dry and got enough busses to support a 5,000 man move. Well, a few hundred of them would show up driving the brigade's vehicles (armed with fuel cards to use at pumps that don't work, so the army would also have to transport in its own bulk fuel).
Well, in order to move 4,400 soldiers by bus in 48 hours, with a 1-day turnaround time, you would need 100 busses. Which is most of the FEMA effort right there. The available truck transportation would be hauling food, water, tents, portable kitchens, and other gear -- not troops.
Well, I think FEMA came up with 140 busses. You want to strip 70 percent of the FEMA effort to bring in National Guard? I didn't think so.
And then when the Brigade got there, it would take them nearly a day to set up. Where are you going to put them? You'd need an entire park or fairground, and you'd need to clear vagrants out of there. That's doable, but it takes time. And meanwhile, you've got 5,000 soldiers on the ground. Where are they going to crap, Ann? Did you consider that question?
No.
So you'd have to contract with portalet providers -- competing for the vendors with bidders from the city, county, churches, and neighboring cities and counties. Portable shower and latrine facilities can be trucked in from all over the country. But that takes time as well. Oh, and you might have to contract with Brown and Root. I can imagine the screeching and howling already.
Trust me. Brown and Root is good at this. If we're not contracting with Brown and Root, we're fools. They're even better if they can hire all Palestinians, Bosnians, and Philippinas.
Well, suppose you've overcome all these hurdles. Congratulations. You've only
I agree with what you say about human desperation and anarchy, all major disaters have villans and heros to a varying degree, what has triggered this particularly nasty reaction???
I read this on the BBC: "People are going to kill you for water," Thomas Jessie, a 31-year-old roofer, told the AFP news agency after spending the night in the convention centre.
The disaster happened Monday, people were on TV shouting about a lack of water on Wednesday, water started arriving on Thursday. Most people can't last more than 3 days without water, even one day without water is unplesant for a healthy adult. Most are either totaly freaked out or dying after two, add to that the tropical heat and humidity. When people think they are going to die they do some nasty things to survive, none of us are immune to that kind of depravity given the right conditions. Certainly there are a small minority who will do the perverse shit the first chance they get (eg:rape) but they are there every day of the week, disasters just bring them out in the open.
Between Monday and Thursday, what took priority over bottled water drops to the designated shelters?
Why were tens of thousands of people who had gathered at the designated shelters left thinking they were going to die from dehydration for 3 days?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Looks like Interdictor and Sigmund are the only people in NO who did any disaster planning.
Out here in earthquake country (San Francsico) the authorities are telling people - don't expect any help for 72 hours.
http://www.72hours.org/
A lot of businesses have an "ark" - shipping containers with food and water for several days for all employees, and I carry powerbars and a liter of water everywhere I go. My family spends several hours per month on preparedness, if you count quake-proofing the house as preparedness (we have our own little ark). We are trying to organize our little suburb with a network of FRS radio-linked block captains. San Francisco is already way ahead of us and is fairly well organized. (The DHS has recently standardized and begun promoting this Community Emergency Response Team system.)
However, only our worst-case scenario (a 7.0 right under Berkeley/Oakland) would result in a scenario as bad as what NO is going through, with thousands of housing units destroyed and hundreds killed.
Still, NO got caught asleep at the wheel. This is not an act of God, it's a 90% man-made disaster.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
How do you know it's all being seen by credible witnesses? How do you know it's all being reported? What if people are being hush-hush so as not to scare away the rescuers?
Oh and yeah...they're all dying because the rescuers are scared...last I heard people were still going in despite the reports. If some asshole is shooting at a helicopter desperately needed for this operation...it would be criminal for the pilot to NOT leave the area and go elsewhere.
Personally, I think all these people are dying due to the local government's lack of planning and the Fed's cutting of the FEMA budget for city improvements.
Blar.
You have no choice but to lower prices. To continue the example: gas wholesale prices drop to $.90/gallon. The guy across the street has am empty tank, so he buys 10,000 gallons of gas. His margins are the same as yours, but since his cost is lower than yours he can sell gas at $1.20/gallon, make 7 cents profit, and still undercut what you can afford. If you are smart you will respond by lowering your price to $1.15/gallon, because it allows you to show the community that you are selling cheap gas.
Owning a gas station is about evening out these spikes. Sometimes you loose, sometimes you win. It all evens out in the long run if you manage your business carefully.
I was wondering if anyone else happened to watch the Oil Storm special on FX (not FOX, the FX channel) that aired back in May/June 2005. It was a dramatized documentary about a hurricane hitting Port Fourchon in September 2005, including fake news reports and fake accounts of people affected by the event. The kicker to the whole story was that a major pipeline that runs into the gulf was severed, and the main canal that oil ships take to get to the refineries was blocked off. Oil prices surged, the president delcared a new emergency energy czar (they seriously called him a czar) to manage the energy crisis, we invaed Saudi Arabia or something to secure our oil supplies, gas shot up to $7/gal all across the country, farms shut down, etc. There were plenty of things wrong with the show, and I found that somewhat absurd premises were placed at convenient locations throughout the show. But otherwise it was interesting to watch.
...
Now that Katrina came through and had similar effects around the same time of the year, it's kind of eerie
Air dropping supplies onto roofs is also bad, as there is no way to tell which roof will support that kind of activity. You do not want to try and help people and instead cause their building to collapse, killing them. That would be Bad.
Air dropping around the Super Dome or Convention Center is bad because you will hit people.
Right now, boats and trucks/busses are the best way to get supplies into the affected areas.
There are ass loads of busses and trucks, but the drivers are balking at going back into the city, due to the lawlessness. Yes, it's only a few, the vast majority are not doing it, but remember, you are asking bus drivers and truck drivers to risk their lives by just going in.
A co-worker's dad is a truck driver. He was in Baton Rogue when Katrina hit. He's now driving supplies in and people out of NO. He said it's like when he was in Nam, there's water everywhere, and you never know if the folks are friendly or will shoot at you till it's too late.
In order to get the supplies in and the people out, we need to ensure that the people helping, and the victims, are able to be moved safely, and that means hunting down the folks shooting at the aid workers and victims.
Food and water are going in. People are coming out.
Food and water was staged nearby. It could not be staged within the city, or it would be ruined/underwater now. Due to damage to the roads and especially the bridges, we were "slow" going in. Ever been to Louisiana and seen their roads on a good day? Can you imagine what they're like now?
The military bases nearby had to move their helicopters and rotor craft fairly far away so that they were not destroyed by the huricane. They're back now and are ferrying people and supplies.
We can not rescue people with the big (Chinook) helicopters, as the prop wash would injure the people we'd be trying to rescue.
They are using the larger copters to ferry in supplies and to work on the levee breaches.
The people that can, and are able to, need to start walking out. The further they get, the less resources are needed to help get them out. If only half could walk out, it'd help a lot.
Let this be a wake up call to everyone. You need to have personal emergency plan. Know where to go, and how to get there in case of an emergency. Have some supplies, food and water. Have some hand tools, like a hammer, axe, and prize bar, so that if you are trapped in an attic or within a collapsed house you can try to escape. Have a first aid kit. If you require medication, hae a few days extra supply on hand. If you are in a flood prone area, this all needs to be in floatable, waterproof containers (rubber maid and duct tape works). Know where to go to find high ground.
The onus is on us, at least at first, to take care of ourselves, so be prepared.
-gandalf23@work
They thought they could fix a 500' levee of MOVING water in 24 hours.
I saw a report late Tuesday or early Wednesday that they were going to try to sink a barge into the hole. That might have worked, but I guess it didn't pan out.
Sometime Wednesday, the water level in New Orleans reached that of the lake, but there were still reports of helicopters dropping 15,000 pound sandbags into the break (Chinooks; I guess they only had Blackhawks, earlier). At that point it was too late, and it really was stupid that they were wasting energy on that rather than bringing in food, water, medicine and probably some various medical professionals.
Yes, it's funny. I think what you're parodying is Franklin, though.
libertarianism does not always equal Libertarianism. Please differentiate the two.
If that's the case, I know I for one would be happy to have anything to eat at all, not giving a shit if it's warm or cold. The audacity of complaining about cold MREs when there's nothing else to eat is ridiculous at best.
~jaraxle
If anyone can donate some bandwidth and server space to mirror the wiki, pictures, and video for these guys, please join the IRC channel:
irc.freenode.net
#interdictor-tech
As a college student living in America, I simply cannot afford to see a doctor, dentist, etc for even a checkup. Haven't seen a dentist in like 5 years nor a doctor in 3 (and that was for just a physical). Even with a "good economy", there are many teens, young adults, and poor people who are prohibited by such a healthcare system from receiving even the most basic care. Sure, we have the most advanced medical techniques, equipment, drugs or what not, but with such high costs, many can't afford it. I guess only the wealthy deserve to live.
Considering that many of the people dying and in trouble are the poorer, and possibly poorest members of the populace, it would seem to increase the country's per-capita net worth to let them die. Pretty simple step towards keeping yourself the richest (money-wise) nation in the world.
It would callously explain Bush's (non-)response, anyway.
There are new pictures availible. I will do my best to keep this mirror up to date...
http://www.nerdshack.com/katrina/
Nice. People have just had their entire lives wiped away before their eyes, spending days living in a place that we'd otherwise think would make a neat apocalypse flick, and you're drawing moral strength from the fact that someone was caught on film complaining about an MRE? Do you think our troops LIKE eating MREs? I'd airdrop the troops (and these people) a lobster dinner if it were possible. Why you feel the need to apologize for our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT when we're being bombarded with pictures and videos of tens of thousands of people NOT getting help is beyond me. Sure, thousands have been bused out. No facts for this, but it seems likely there are still 4-5 people in need of help/transportation for every person that's gotten it. It's been multiple DAYS, and only now have more substantial help. You have goddamn FEMA chair on TV saying he 'didn't know' there were thousands at the convention center or Superdome in need. Maybe the timing of the questions are worth looking into? Certainly, Thursday is looking better than Tuesday - helpwise. But it's still not enough. We should have seen trains running by yesterday, not explosions in the train yard. We should have seen airdrops by now. It's FEMA's and the feds' job to respond to a tragedy of this magnitude. This federal government is big on strategic decisions (let's turn Iraq into an unsecured aircraft carrier) but sucks ass on tactical implementations. Americans are dying on streets that look JUST like ours because of this mortal weakness.
The rescuers are not charging a fee before they lift you of the roof.
Fees would be voluntary, rather they tax you your whole life under threat of physical violence -- much more altusitic.
Warlords did not take charge of the high ground and critical infrastructure so far.
No?
That'd be you, homey. Ayn Rand didn't like non-Randist libertarians, condemned the Libertarian Party of the U.S., and generally had no use whatsoever for the whole idea. Her followers are called Objectivists, and they are more likely to be gently made fun of by reasonable libertarians than anyone else, even though they are sometimes useful political allies.
George Orwell was a socialist who made fun of Communists. This works much the same way. Altruism isn't immoral. It just doesn't always work.
Your examples ignore the fact that "gouging" occurs when there is insufficient competition, or when there is collusion.
When there's a competitive marketplace, and prices skyrocket due to a common supply bottleneck, then there's no collusion or lack of competition, and it's not gouging. But when all of the sellers are owned by one company, and they jack up the prices, claiming there's a shortage, when there isn't, then that's "gouging" - and that's the situation the laws cover. That's not stupid. It's survival.
The supply is the same whether you impose rationing, or allow the free market to ration a supply of a critical commodity (like say, food, or gasoline). When you let the free market rations a commodity, some people can afford it, and typically hoard it, and the rest go without. Those who go without food, quite simply, die. If 50,000 people in a town of 250,000 die, then the survival of the other 200,000 is imperilled. People are tied to eachother economically more than most people think.
When you impose rationing, then everybody gets a share - and nobody dies, and you get through the crisis.
The truth is, there are some commodities, and some situations that demand rationing, everybody benefits more in these cases. Likewise, there are situations where a Free Market approach is best (not that there is such a thing, it's a theoretical construct which is approximated, but never very closely, in the real world) - for exactly the reasons you cite. Reward is a key motivator of human behavior. Neither extreme ideology to the exclusion of middle ground is healthy, or even survivable.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
To illustrate my point that fear of dangerous black people is freezing rescue efforts, read:
i ndex.html
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/scene.blog/
Guard gathering in Baton Rouge
Posted: 1:20 p.m. ET
CNN's Deborah Feyerick in Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Right now, the main priority is to restore order to New Orleans.
One official told us, "You can't rescue people when you're being shot at." (See the video of how violence is hindering help -- 3:13)
There are hundreds of people from the National Guard here in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We're seeing people from all the agencies. They're waiting to deploy.
Their sense is that the condition inside New Orleans is so unstable they don't want to be sending people into harm's way.
----
They... haven't deployed troops because SOME few people are shooting... dangerous black poor people.
This is the ARMY that's afraid of the REPORTS of people shooting. That's a few idiots with guns in a crowd of 100,000, and the guard is waiting in Baton Rouge BECAUSE THEY MIGHT GET HURT BY ALL THOSE VIOLENT PEOPLE????
Give it one, two more days, and the riots with hundreds of dead will be in full swing. The guard will come in too late, and shoot anyone who makes a funny move.
Would this happen if this was a nice white suburb in Illinois with a few nuts with guns holding off aid to all of Schaumburg? You all KNOW the Guard would be in already if it were. They're staying out, as the post indicates, because they are afraid of the superpowerful violent blacks. It's Louisiana -- the whites have a terror of the blacks of New Orleans.
It'll be the wikipedia entry; Shitstorm: see Katrina....
You now have an extended locus of absence of rule of law; the heat, the poverty, the desperation, all combine to generate a self-replicating and possibly growing region of chaos.
These armed bands and warlords won't just go back to dealing crack and running hoes 10 months from now when the city again meets first-world standards.
USA must seize, NOW, the opportunity to project caring civilisation right into the middle of that mess, or the toxic sludge will surely metastatize and spread throughout the lower states.
Wakey Wakey!
At least in bagdad, they're religious......
A society in which there is no protection of property or well being of individuals is in anarchy, whether there is a body that calls themselves a government or not.
Lets be clear about this: anarchy is bad.
Troll Like a Champion Today
Um, no. Please check the applicable state laws and statements of your local governors and attorneys general. If, after a hurricane, pipeline or other event that creates a shortage you have 9 stations charging $3.50/gallon of gas and a 10th that is charging $9.50/gallon that one station will be charged with gouging, even though consumers can simply go elsewhere. The situation you describe is monopolistic price fixing and is what the government routinely encourages by allowing - if not chartering - said monopolies.
Uh huh. You also encourage cheating, such as the widespread counterfeiting of 'Red C' stickers in the WWII era.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
What would they call it? New New Orleans?
Futurama, here we come!
and you're drawing moral strength from the fact that someone was caught on film complaining about an MRE?
No, you're saying I am. I'm pointing out that all we're seeing on TV are reporters looking everywhere they can for people who are willing to say that they're getting no help at all, even as help is obviously pouring in. And the degree of misery would have been hugely, hugely reduced by the people of that city (that didn't) spending literally a few minutes and a few dollars being better prepared with enough Tuesday-through-Thursday food and water so that the people that weren't able-bodied could get all of the attention from the emergency services.
Why you feel the need to apologize for our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT when we're being bombarded with pictures and videos of tens of thousands of people NOT getting help is beyond me
Who's apologizing? I'm not - I think think it's shame that despite everything they're doing there are people who, for whatever reason, insist on saying they're doing nothing. They're spending $500 million per day, and have been since Monday to help out the people in all three states that were impacted. It's the least that someone sitting in New Orleans watching that storm approach could have done to personally help by not making matters worse, given the opportunity. That opportunity was completely squandered by thousands of people that are now bitching at the thousands of people that are trying to help.
But it's still not enough
Which is why thousands more people, and endless shipments have already been enroute and continue to flow in. If all you do is listen to the people that are crowding around reporters, all you're going to get is their perspective - and not see the huge efforts that are under way.
We should have seen trains running by yesterday, not explosions in the train yard.
Really? You think that a swamped rail yard with no power and wrecked switching equipment should be working just over 48 hours after a broken levee dumped a whole lake on it? Even when all of the people that work those yards and maintain the equipment - even if they had power - are subject to a mandatory evacuation? Do you really think that every place those rail lines go could have been evaluated by engineers for soundness and safety within hours of that mess? You seem to think that the government is magic - but I'd be curious how much more influence over local affairs, and command of more taxes you'd be willing to cede to the feds so that they could always deliver what you're talking about everywhere in the country where it might happen.
We should have seen airdrops by now
You mean, like the ones that started on Tuesday, and have been going non-stop ever since? I'm wondering where you're getting your coverage. Can a million homeless people over 90,000 square miles be all helped in a matter of three short days? Simply not possible. Would it have been easier if more of the people in New Orleans had actually prepared, and not ignored the evac orders? At least in part. Would some of those hospitals have had an easier go of it if the people trying to land there to drop of supplies and pick up sick people weren't getting shot at be punks looking to corner the market on stolen pharmaceuticals? Probably. Just a few people making the process in any way harder have been costing time, supplies, and savable lives.
It's shouldn't be FEMA's job to make sure, in the wake of an enormous storm, to make sure that everyone has diapers and warm meals (rather than cold) meals within hours. Readiness to do that, and the provision of a family's immediate food and water, is at best a local responsibility when it's not within the individual's ability. Longer term relief from a disabled infrastructure and shattered local economy is where FEMA should be focused.
Every member of my family, from Seattle (storms? volcanos?), to San Fransisco (earthquakes?), to
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Capitalist Democracies or Democracies in general are only capable to function uner certain societal conditions, i.e. a well established national identity combined with general respect of the ideals of democracy and liberty. If the prevailing situation is that of tribalism and religious zealotry, authoritarianism of some sort (after a civil war) is the only possible outcome. Which was seen by anyone with any clue long before the idiotic crusade to fit a square peg into a round hole started. Similarly, Marxism can function in a scoiety composed exclusively of altruistic, mild mannered, atheists (or something like it). Libertarianism can only exist in a society of ... I have no clue what conditions would make Libertarianism function, any way I look at it, due to extreme Social Darwinism and worship of individual greed such a system implies, any scenario I see will devolve into some sort of feudal-like structure. And that is precisely the problem. While the old Dictatorship, Democracy, Oligarchy, Feudalism are stable configurations, Marxism and Libertarianism are not. Any but a utopian scenario will devolve into one of these other stable end points.
My point is that any social model may be workable in the right situations. Look at Sparta for instance. At one time pederasty was as common as little league (more, actually) Yet by all accounts this was a very successful society. The founding fathers picked Athens as a model for our government not because it was objectively better, but because it was a better match for who we were as a people at the time.
Their sexual activities and other cultural curiosa have zero impact on the governance. Sparta was essentialy a variant of feudalism (where the power was shared between royalty and a nobility council), one of the known stable configurations.
In other words, your entire argument hinges on Libertarianism being counter-balanced, constrained and continuously beaten back by pinko-commie liberals and old-school democratic capitalists or else a Hell-on-Earth scenario I described would break out, right? You will then cause only partial havoc and catastrophy, as oposed to a complete one. Brilliant. By the same token you should try a majority of a Nazi or Stalinist party in the Senate. They cant get too bad if the Democrats have 40% seats, right? They will only build 60% of gulags and the gas chambers will run at below 40% capacity, no?
I think you should step back and look at what you are proposing. A band of Libertarians in any significant power will (and the small group presently there already is) cause a catastrofic destablization of the capitalist system with dire and deadly consequences, just as a band of Nazis would do the same to democracy.
You're right--because if Libertarians had their way, no one would be accountable for anything. There'd be no due process, there'd be no environmental laws at all, and every player in business would conspire.
Pretty much so. Unless of course you are one of those "far left" Libertarians. You should read up on what majority of your "soul mates" are proposing around the net and see for yourself. Even in moderation, Libertarian ideas are causing untold havoc. Look at the increasing gap between the richest 10% and the rest of the globe for example as the old rules of controlling wealth distribution are deemed "quaint". One of the tenets of capitalist free-market, that is of distribution of wealth based on competition instead of inheretance is already nearly destroyed. You should ponder why the theorists of free-market are great believers in nearly 100% inheretance taxation in light of the mechanisms of free market and the impact which lack of such taxation will have.
That's why the media gives Libertarianism so much play, and why the LP gets so many "donations" from businesses who want so much power.
Please do not try to paint yourself as a tiny, voiceless, powerless minority. Many of your very closely aligned ideologically (on the "free market should do absolutely everything, government nearly nothing" front) neo-con operators are presently at the levers of US power. A closet Libertarian is running FEMA (with great effects as you can see). The Bremer's rules for the Iraqi economy could have been written at the Cato Institute etc. So do not try, Your kind is very well represented and financed by the interests of wealth and power.
That is a semantic difference. If you eliminate all such constraints, you will end up with outright feudal-like empires with hereditary kings (a vast multi-national private-propiatorship) vs. roman-empire-like empires (a corporation with a Ceasar/CEO and a senate of nobles/Board). This is essentially splitting hair as in both cases the serfs (i.e. the rest of us) will not fare too well as some of these empires would have unchecked powers far in exceess of nations of today.
The only intelligent, well-thought-out, non-blaming post I've seen on this topic all day!
SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
How else can one interpret his statement of his intention to turn FEMA into a "charity coordinator" and to "shift the burden of their mission onto private enterprise" or something to that effect. Google yourself.
The core Libertarian view, which has been pointed out many times now but you keep ignoring it, is ultimate personal freedom with ultimate personal responsibility
Which only takes one renegade to use his "ultimate personal freedom" uncoupled from his "ultimate personal repsonsibility" to screw the whole society up beyond description. See Marxism -> Stalinism. But that is all academic as most libertarians are actually narcisstic objectivists in drag and are in search of ideology to justify their desire for moneygrubbing.
In a Libertarian world charities (e.g. welfare, social security, getting much needed supplies to vicitims of hurricnaes) would operate much more smoothly since they would be run by private CHARITABLE AND NON-PROFIT organizations funded by private individuals instead of clumsy government agencies.
Here we go again: the charities are not capable of dealing with large scale disasters. Period. They lack sufficient up-fron capital expenditures, coordination, have huge overhead (10000 charties all need administration) and lack authority to take charge of the situation.
Try to get your facts right before you post.
Now I remember why I should not reply to ACs. Confused trolls, nearly all of them.
That's it, it's pointless--your non-stop pejorative comments coupled with a complete lack of scope/understanding on your part have shown me once a troll, always a troll. Whatever, have fun.
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
Read: fees would be nearly non-existant and certainly nowhere near sufficient to do any good. Might as well forget the whole pretense of helping others, instead of just making useless token feel-good gestures. Much more "altruistic", Libertarian style.
Warlords did not take charge of the high ground and critical infrastructure so far. No?
I was behind the news apparently. I stand corrected, the practical results of Libertarian idals are blooming indeed.
Translation: I dare to actually question your proposals and demand sane, in-depth answers from you instead of being satisfied with vague proclamations and empty slogans. Which you find unnacceptable.
As I remember the events unfolding, the Mayor of New Orleans only finally agreed to a mandatory evacuation after FEMA scared the crap out of him about what was about to happen. Remember that President Bush declared this area a disaster area two days BEFORE the disaster happened - which is highly unprecedented.
At one of the first news conferences the day after the storm, the mayor in the same news conference said the following:
FEMA asked me what my priorities are, in order - and they'll work from that list. I told them:
1) Search and rescue
2) Repairing the levees
3) Evacuation of the people who hadn't left
Spin forward about a minute later, he says:
And I'm getting really angry about this hole in the 17th street canal. I was told they were going to drop sandbags in it to try to fill the hole, but the helicopters were diverted to work on Search and Rescue missions.
Is it at all clear now why people are running in circles?
By the way, if you read his biography, he's an "outsider". He ran on an anti-corruption compaign, and he won based on having no prior experience in city government.
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
Capitalist Democracies or Democracies in general are only capable to function uner certain societal conditions
While the old Dictatorship, Democracy, Oligarchy, Feudalism are stable configurations
Spluh?! These statemenst are contradictory though.
I like your idea of stable configurations though. Let me point out that as in chemistry a state change (pun intended) from one conformation to another may fail if the activation energy is not high enough. This has nothing to do with the stability of the end point, and everything to do with how hard it is to get there. Also, it is by no means clear that we have discovered all stable conformations.
Their sexual activities and other cultural curiosa have zero impact on the governance.
Social policy is intimately connected with governance. If you don't believe it, compare the social policies of any fundamentalist dictatorship with those of any secular capitalist republic.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Bah, it was late and I was tired (you should see that by the amount of typos). Anyhow, the idea of "matter state change" is a rather good analogy. What I was trying to say is that each of these stable end-points has a certain set of conditions attached to it, and I was specifically enumerating the ones for a Democratic Capitalist society. It is a stable configuration of course. While I posit that Marxism, Libertarianism and other similarly unbalanced systems lie outside these minima (maxima?) of the societal stability function.
Social policy is intimately connected with governance. If you don't believe it, compare the social policies of any fundamentalist dictatorship with those of any secular capitalist republic.
I didn't express it clearly enough. What I was aiming at is that the core nature of the system itself is not impacted. You could have a dictatorship based on a religious zealotry and strict sex-related code and you could have a secular dictatorship based on worship of personality and militarism. Both are essentially in the same "matter state" but differ in other areas which I do not see as relevant to the point I was discussing.
True. Generally the higher the price is jacked, the more likely you'll get slammed with a charge of price gouging. A fifty-cent increase isn't going to piss off people as much as a five dollar increase per gallon of gas (which is why few in California are complaining of price gouging), because it's still within the range of affordability. Similarly, you could raise the price of a generator a couple hundred bucks over the advertised price and it won't screw people nearly as hard as if you jacked the price up tenfold. The greater the variance (in your favor, particularly), the more inclined the consumer is to assume he's being taken for a desperate fool.
Especially if the consumer has evidence of your previously advertised prices. Else, how would they know if they're being gouged in the first place unless they had a prior price to compare to?
If you're sold out and a riot breaks out, it's not your fault. You upheld your end of the bargain by selling at a reasonably fair price. If you've got plenty left and are withholding the supply because nobody can pay your exorbitant fees, whatever happens as a result is entirely your fault.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
This guy is a moron for staying and the fact that he has become some IT hero to all the geeks on the internet is disturbing. Why would you want to spend a bunch of days in a small room with a bunch of other dudes surrounded by total chaos? I also don't like in his blog when he wrote "Law enforcement have absolutely lost their minds. Some guy wearing khaki fatigues and black vests which say Police on them have their faces covered in black ski masks and are touting M4-A1s with front hand grips -- like they're some kind of Delta Force operators waiting to hit the tire house. They're guarding the four corners around the Bell South building for crying out loud. And what, they need secret identities? Come on. You can just tell some of these guys have never gotten out before. Now's their big chance to play Army." Basically this guy is calling people who are on the ground "p*ssies."This coming from the guy who is sitting in a high rise in a small room surrounded by police and national guard. THis guy gets people to protect him every time he leaves the building and he is calling those guys wimps all becaus they want to be protected? This moron doesn't know what chaos is because is fatass has been sitting in a high rise the whole time making other people put their neck on the line to get him fuel for his generators. THIS GUY IS NOT A HERO!
If gas priced had been allowed to hit $3.50/gallon they would have bought only what they needed
And if gas had hit $35.00 a gallon, would people have bought only what they needed? Or would the line have thinned out, with CEOs duking it out to make sure their cigarette boat could get topped off before they take their girlfriends motorskiing next weekend?
Raising the price doesn't make anyone smarter, all it does is force the people who can't afford it to do without.
It is a source of great amazement to Europeans that when something goes wrong, Americans shoot each other and the rescue personel.
It's not just Europeans (speaking as an Australian).
It's not just Europeans and Australians (speaking as an American).