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You can always buy a truck from an American manufacturer

AC, I fail to see how it has any relevance to any discussion involving the proliferation of electric vehicles, or the segue into the support infrastructure that will need to drastically change for them to make them relevant to urban drivers, but I bought #6 on the list of cars that will have the biggest impact on the American economy. Of course, with such a throw-away comment, you may have a horse in the game. Are you also embarrassed at how few "American" cars made the list (Ford, GM, Chrysler, Jeep, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Dodge, etc)? 4 of the top 10 are "Japanese", for whatever that actually means anymore.

And? Toyota didn't build their first large factory over the past year and a half.

Neither did Tesla. They bought a fully-functional factory from Toyota and GM. And you would think after 10 years of "production" that Tesla would have a better idea about how to do it...

(It's also worth mentioning, as a lesser point, that Toyota's average vehicle sale price isn't $45k)

Yep! The average Toyota is closer to half that amount. And yet, Toyota consistently makes a profit whereas Tesla consistently loses money. I guess if you want to gamble the value of a warranty/support on a $50K+ vehicle on a company that doesn't know how to make a profit, you have quite a bit of money to fritter away!

Maybe they do have better engineers. At least in this particular niche.

They have some real good engineers there alright.

Oh really?

If your vehicle tracks as straight as an arrow, you're wheels likely are properly aligned. Even so, it's a good idea to have your alignment checked annually, such as when you have your tires rotated. You certainly should have it done when you buy new tires so they don't immediately start to wear unevenly.

Wheel alignment is generally checked annually, at a minimum. The same goes for things like brakes--note my brakes only need replacement after about 7-10 years (manual transmission engine braking, or electric car regenerative braking), yet I have the brakes checked twice a year during tire rotation. Brake fluid gets a flush and full change every two years, not that you ever really need to change brake fluid in a real car--you just don't want to find out you've pushed it a tad too far.

A K&N filter is life time.

I ran a K&N filter and killed my car, kind of. What happened was I didn't annually take it out and clean it, and had lost something like 10% of my power by the end of the second year. Four years in, the car barely ran; when I took it out, it was murky and had actual bugs in it.

In general, you run a paper air filter for some 30,000-45,000 miles between replacement. With a K&N filter, you generally clean them annually, which is more-frequent service than paper filters.

This no car that requires this. It's not ever a thing.

I've had to adjust the tensioner in Mazdas and Saturns (although any Saturn car was a qualified piece of shit). The belts are rubber with fiber (cloth) radial, and can wear and stretch. Most often, the belts actually deteriorate and require replacement; you need to inspect timing, drive, and AC belts annually if you want your car to not suddenly destroy its engine head.

This kind of wear is more-pronounced on motorcycles, which use a chain in open air to transmit power. Car engines use timing chains inside the engine and bathed in oil (which last 100,000 miles without adjustment) or timing belts in open air (which last 30,000 miles, usually). Open-air chain drive leads to excessive wear on the drive sprockets if not continuously cleaned and lubricated. Belts are somewhat better because they require less maintenance; they require frequent inspection because they can wear much faster than their expected service life, and often need adjustment or early replacement.

All due to the teslas massive weight.

5,000 pounds is pretty hefty. The Volt is 3,500; the Ford F250 has a curb weight of between 5,500 and 6,700; and the F-150 weighs about what the Tesla Model S weighs. Of course the S-150 runs normal tires, rather than the low-profile tires the OP was running.

The Chevy Camero weighs up to 4,100 pounds, by the way.

How the hell can $30,000 be considered adequate insurance? Would that even cover the ambulance ride to emergency down there? I feel bad only carrying $2 million in the land of govt. healthcare as if I ever put someone in a wheelchair, I'd like to cover their expenses.

1. You're missing a zero. My example was $300k, not $30k.
2. Sadly, the actual limits are lower in a lot of states. For example, Florida only requires $10k of personal injury protection liability insurance.
3. In the USA, though, liability doesn't end with insurance, however 'most' people are judgement proof. IE if I'm a millionaire and carry the Florida minimum, hit somebody and do $100k of damage, my insurance will pay $10k and I'll have to pay $90k. Plus court costs, most likely. However, most people don't have the assets to pay their own lawyer through a trial, much less a judgement.
4. Car insurance in the USA tends to be more about protecting your own assets than making the other person whole.
5. My insurance is $250k/person, $500k/incident.

So it's not surprising in the least that Uber and Lyft drivers tend to fancy lower cost vehicles like hybrids and such.

Wait, what?

Might want to re-evaluate it based on what everybody is seeing and not just on what you see with your 2 cars.
Volvo is WAY down the list. And mazda is just barely above average.

Sadly, JD Powers refuses to rate Tesla. Interestingly, Tesla is now at the same sales volume as Porsche was in 2000. And if all goes well Tesla will surpass Porsche by 2018. Of course, the question is, will JD Powers finally rate Tesla then?

In fact, they have to, because haggling is their entire profit margin.

Actually, haggling only represents part of their profit margin. Nearly every manufacturer provides a dealer with a holdback on every sale, usually around 3%. In addition, there are also factory-to-dealer incentives (which dealers are not obligated to pass along to customers), where manufacturers sell cars for less than the invoice price. There are various other rebate programs that manufacturers use to help dealers with their margins and move vehicles. Many manufacturers are willing to sell greater volumes at lower margins (especially when it comes to fleet sales).

It doesn't invalidate your point, but dealers don't survive on the haggling process alone.

Also, if a manufacturer sells directly, what stops states and localities from collecting taxes on the same and use of the vehicle?

Yeah, that's been my best guess too. But (10,000 miles / (40 miles/gallon diesel)) * 2% urea/ diesel = 5 gallons urea per service interval. Passat has a 5-gallon urea tank, which is just the right size.

So they're not skimping on size/weight of the tank. The only explanations left that I can see: either the urea system puts some performance limits on the engine that I haven't figured out yet, or else they just want to save some money on urea (since they pay for it for the first 30,000 miles.) But risking billion-dollar fines and your company's entire reputation to save $20 worth of chemical? No way. Volkswagen may be unethical but they're not that stupid.

Electric vehicles have lower maintenance cost as gas vehicles. Hybrid vehicles have the same maintenance cost as gas vehicles.
https://www.cars.com/articles/...
http://www.carsdirect.com/car-...

I was under the false impression that hybrids also had lower maintenance, because of things like regenerative braking. The second article points out that as an advantage, but says it is offset by other things.

That doesn't narrow things down a lot.

I was trying to point out that 4 years ago this month (when I bought my "2011"), many of the features from the new Corvette were already available.

I have no idea exactly which models have the same feature, but this shows the Focus had it the model year before (in a more limited feature set), so the answer would be "pretty much every Ford had it back then".

I started a post with the aim to thoroughly rebuke you and refute your claim. The first place I looked was a Google search for standard warranties which gives US manufacturers' warranties as about the same lengths as foreign warranties. Next I looked for how well manufcaturers actually stand by their warranties. The number of hate articles and lawsuits over various foreign and domestic manufacturers' warranties seems about the same. Cars still on the road is another way to look at reliability. After some research I have come to the conclusion that the oldest cars longevity isn't related to quality of manufacture but rather dedication of the owners, older common cars are foreign -- but that doesn't count toward my point since the increase in US manufacturers' quality is relatively recent -- and common cars aging on the road today are about the same across country of manufacture.*

The late 1980's and early 1990's saw Honda et al. Eating Ford's lunch and US manufacturers' advertising focused on brand recognition. Later ads focused on features. Since this is a case of competing against quality with features (and because Tesla) I'm not even going to contest that US manufacturers ever fell behind on features.

Foreign cars still dominate in the mileage category but that alone is insufficient to state in the grand sweeping way I did that US made cars are inferior.

In short I stand corrected. US manufacturers have fully caught up with foreign makers in most categories of vehicle quality.

*excluding outliers.

Compared to the cost of maintaining even a very reliable gas-powered car like a Honda Accord, $600/yr looks like a bargain.

Funny. But I think the OP was thinking of multipoint fuel injection. http://ask.cars.com/2012/03/wh...

The BMW didn't win by chance, but because it is based on a totally different construction method to makes it lighter:

What makes the i3 different from every other car on the market is under the skin - it's almost entirely made out of plastic. This is no ordinary plastic, mind you - it's carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic. It's basically the same stuff used to make Formula One cars and stealth bombers. What's remarkable about the i3 is that it's the first mass-market car made out of carbon fiber. There's no metal in the car's body - all the bumpers, doors and skins are plastic as well. The only major metal parts are the drive unit and suspension components. The result is a four-seat, four-door city car that weighs only about 2,700 pounds - or nearly 500 pounds less than a BMW 1 Series.

This actually quite a bold and innovative new product. It's a shame they made it so ugly. I'm really curious to see crash test results.

I'd love to see average body damage repair costs.

What makes the i3 different from every other car on the market is under the skin - it's almost entirely made out of plastic. This is no ordinary plastic, mind you - it's carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic. It's basically the same stuff used to make Formula One cars and stealth bombers. What's remarkable about the i3 is that it's the first mass-market car made out of carbon fiber. There's no metal in the car's body - all the bumpers, doors and skins are plastic as well. The only major metal parts are the drive unit and suspension components. The result is a four-seat, four-door city car that weighs only about 2,700 pounds - or nearly 500 pounds less than a BMW 1 Series.

This actually quite a bold and innovative new product. It's a shame they made it so ugly. I'm really curious to see crash test results.

There's actually about 16 million cars sold last year in the US, and the overall fleet has a median age of 10.8 years. (11.1 for cars, 10.4 for light trucks) so you have even longer to amortize the cost, and across fewer vehicles. While I would agree that the safety benefit of a backup camera on a Chevy Spark is dubious at best, the shift toward SUV's and minivans, combined with the design trend toward thicker roof pillars has contributed to a much larger blind spot behind modern vehicles. And yes, most victims are little kids, or the elderly.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingt...
http://www.consumerreports.org...

Maybe you should take a look at the Ford testimony about the bailout. You know, Ford? The car company that *didn't* take any bailout funds?

Apparently you don't know Ford:

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/12/report-ford-took-federal-funds-too.html

Good riddance. These infotainment systems have historically been buggy and lead to animosity misdirected at the auto manufacturer rather than the software provider. Witness the story of Ford. On the rebound after the auto-crisis of 2007, Ford quality grew by leaps and bounds, outpacing the industry in 2008, and resulting in a top-5 JD Power and Associates ranking in 2009. That year, Ford added Microsoft SYNC to their vehicles and called it "MyFordTouch." The interface was so buggy and inconsistent that it lead to Ford dropping from number 5 in JD Power's quality 2010 quality rankings (despite no major overhalls and no new engines that year), to number 23 a year later, and then all the way to 33rd this year. Now Ford customers have launched a class-action lawsuit against Ford.

The sooner auto manufacturers standardize on a infotainment system, the better. The fact that this is open-source and based on Linux (specifically, Tizen) makes it even more likely that updates will be provided many years down the road. (even if not by the manufacturers themselves, by the community; think Cyanogenmod). This makes cars less like disposable toys and more worthy of being the second-largest expense that most households make.

Top Gear had the same issue with the sports car (drive it "fun" and the range is nearly nothing)

They have similar issues with all cars. They did a nice test of five supercars. The results:

#5: Ferrari 599 - 1.7 MPG, rated at 11/15; and as James May pointed out, that works out to GBP 3.20/mile.
#4: Aston Martin DB9, rated at 11/17
#3: Mercedes McLaren SLR, rated at 12/16
#2: Lamborghini Murcielago - 4.1 MPG, rated at 8/13
#1: Audi R8 - 5 MPG, rated at 12/19.

And in the same segment they compared a Toyota Prius to a BMW M3, with the Prius hitting 17.2 MPG (rated at 48/45) and the M3 getting 19.4 MPG (rated at 14/20).

Amazingly Clarkson actually has sound advice in the end. It's now what you drive, it's how you drive it.

Then again, I live in California and don't suffer from the bad map issues that other regions have had.

Actually, I live in southern California and I've found various issues.

I've found that Apple Maps seems to work fine if you enter a street address. However, you definitely don't want to let it search for you.

For example, if I'm in my house and I search for "ribs", it will tell me about the Tony Roma's up the street. The one that closed about 5 years ago. That's the only one it shows. It doesn't show BBQ Bistro just down the street, which opened last year.

There's a great article I saw which compares the iOS 6 Maps application with Android and a stock GM GPS. What's interesting in the article is that he was talking about how he'd put in dozens of addresses and it did a wonderful job on all but one of them. However, as soon as he searched for the closest Verizon store because he needed a cable at the last minute, it sent him miles away to a location where there was no Verizon store.

As I pointed out, Apple's data seems to be years out of date. What would have been interesting is if Apple could have used their own maps but used Google to do searching.

Cash for Clunkers only ran for 6 months and ended in 2009. So every car traded since July 2009 has ended up on the resale market (if the car is worth it). The data showed that the effects on inventory (and therefore used car prices) lasted about 6 weeks.

It's nothing more then a temporary blip in the grand scheme of things, since there are so many other long term factors that effect the price of used cars.

Federal regs now require stability control, which in turn requires ABS and TCS.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/04/stability_contr.html

Power steering is a luxury, and not even needed on a car that light. But ABS is a definite safety plus, both for the occupants and everyone else. (Yes, it would be great if everyone was trained in threshold braking and was always alert and ready to employ the technique. It is also an absolutely absurd pipe dream to expect that of two hundred million+ drivers, every day of every week.)

Yeah, still not right. I'm sure Ford had the same discussions internally about Chevy at some point.

Patents and Patent Infringement are not about protecting / stealing ideas, they are about protecting / stealing the particular method of an idea. The rest IMHO is justifiable hogwash built to create "outs" for companies to sue one another. Patent law shouldn't be applicable to what colors are used, what shape things are. It's evident that the products differ it's also evident that they are the SAME product.

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/24741059+w750+st0/0909_04_z+chevy_camaro_vs_ford_mustang+engines.jpg
http://blogs.cars.com/putc_special_reports/images/2010v6so/Lead.jpg
http://image.hotrod.com/f/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1012_2010_chevrolet_camaro_vs_2010_ford_saleen_mustang/31149805+pheader_460x1000/hrdp_1012_01_o+2010_chevrolet_camaro_vs_2010_ford_saleen_mustang+front_view.jpg

From across the room can you tell the difference?

... You should consider the $14000 + the cost of the original honda civic as the total cost of the finished vehicle. ...

I agree.... So much so, that I looked up the MSRP of a 1996 Honda Civic.
This site-- http://www.cars.com/honda/civic/1996/
shows a low-end of $10,350 and a high of $16,480....

So converting this car increased its cost roughly 2 to 2.5 times, and cut its range from 330~440 miles, down to 30 miles.

This is the reason car companies wouldn't build these things until the govt paid them to....


I am fully supportive of improving transportation efficiency, but electric cars just aren't it--and aren't going to be it as long as there's still oil left in the ground.
The ONLY form of electric transportation that is in significant use around the world is trains, and the reason is because they are fed from overhead lines and so are free from the technical limitations of storage batteries.

Cars.com just released their yearly American-made index. Toyota has 3 (including #1 spot), GM 3, Honda 2, Ford 1, Jeep 1

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0712

FWIW Toyota and Honda have cars that are 80% made in USA by content (including the parts). At one point they might even have been the most American cars ;).

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/american-cars/story?id=13801165

It's pathetic how few vehicles get decent mileage. but this one will fit your adults and dog, http://www.cars.com/kia/soul/2012/

Dunno if the Soul is any good but Kia has really come up

At least one site claims that Toyota Camrys are the most "american" cars :).

2011
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611&referer=&aff=national

2010
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0710

2009
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0709

At least one site claims that Toyota Camrys are the most "american" cars :).

2011
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611&referer=&aff=national

2010
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0710

2009
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0709

At least one site claims that Toyota Camrys are the most "american" cars :).

2011
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611&referer=&aff=national

2010
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0710

2009
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0709

And if you trust Consumer Reports' methodology, you have less than half a brain.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/03/consumer-reports-admits-reliability-data-was-scarce-for-chrysler.html
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php

There are plenty more articles out there explaining the problem.

Many "Japanese" cars are made in the USA: http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611

They are still reasonably affordable.

Which also happens in the US.

Apple are the heavyweight in cheap consumer electronics, and American owned. We should be asking why they aren't building in the US, especially as most of what they "build" is putting together other companies' components.

And we should be defining what "make (or made)" and "build (or built)" mean. If I buy a motherboard from taiwan and build a computer from it in the US, is it "Made in America"? What if the motherboard is from taiwan, CPU from Arizona, hard drive and case from China, power supply from California and I build the computer in Dallas, is it "Made in America"? What if the parts are mostly from the US but they're assembled in Mexico, what is that? And we can take it further, what if the parts are made in the US but the rare earth elements used in those parts are from China, where is it "made"?

Car manufactures have been playing this game for years, buying parts from overseas but assembling the car in the US and calling them "American made". It's so bad that there's a American-Made Index where they rate cars based on how many of their parts come from the US and vehicles like the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord are more "American made" than the Chevy Traverse or Ford Explorer and American icons like the F-150 and Silverado don't even make the list, so people buying trucks from Ford or GM thinking they're supporting America really aren't, they'd be better off buying a Toyota Tundra.

Obviously if the metal, chemicals and other rare materials were mined in the US to make the parts in the US used to assemble the device in the US then it's 100% American made, but that's almost never going to happen so we need to clear this up before we can call something "Made in America".

Even using the new EPA rules, the list of the most fuel efficient cars is still full of 80's and early 90's economy cars, as can be seen here. The only modern cars to make the list are hybrids.

You mean like this?

Toyota doesn't even have the highest number of complaints per 100,000, VW/Audi does. Toyota is the second highest, but BMW is right behind them.

Do you buy it now? Since, you know, your criteria for not buying it is completely wrong?

My ancient Ford truck did some sort of random mechanical stick-down a few times when it was young. I just stuck my toe under the edge and gave it a jerk back toward the resting position, problem solved. No migratory floormats or computers involved, and no driver-error either. Of course, given that I'm a rather light-footed driver, it was only stuck a *little* ways, not mashed to the floor, so the effect was fairly trivial.

Someone posted a link to a chart, see here: http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/03/toyota-not-the-only-automaker-linked-to-unintended-acceleration.html

I'd guess that even if the problem is wholly driver error, there's some design issue that makes it more likely for *some* drivers (depending on driver height from floor, leg length and leverage, torso width, etc.) to hit the wrong pedal. For that reason it would be a lot more useful and interesting to see this charted by specific models. I know that while driving my neighbour's old Chrysler minivan, I have to pay a lot more attention to where I'm putting my feet, because it's designed for a very short and short-legged person of a certain torso width, and no matter where I adjust the seat it's just not natural for my legs to find the right pedal -- the seat would have to be adjustable a couple inches to the right to fit me correctly (and I've never heard of a lateral adjusting carseat). Conversely even when I first got into my truck, having never driven a pickup before, the pedal position was utterly natural and I never ever have to think about it.

Side thought: I wonder how much correlation there is with captain's chair or bucket-type seats, which constrict your seated position laterally? My truck has a bench seat, which means my ass can be wherever it needs to be to put my feet in a natural and comfortable line with the pedals. Not so in a 'chair' type seat, where there's usually only one spot for your butt, and it's your legs that are required to adjust laterally, if need be to reach the pedals.

This has happened with all automakers. Every automaker that I can think of has had a recall for floor mats interfering with the accelerator pedal. Honda had so many it redesigned the pedals on the new Civic to pivot from the floor instead of the firewall so the mats can't get under them.

This is just for model year 2009, I've seen more complete tables as well...
Unintended Acceleration - All Brands

Toyota got nailed because it got a lot of publicity. The other brands are all nervously waiting for someone to point the finger at them, knowing they all have these complaints... even with mounting evidence that it's driver error.

Bullshit. Normalized data going back many years show Toyota has a far higher incidence rate. Either old people buy way more Toyotas or Toyotas really do have a problem.

VW seems to be having even more issues than Toyota.

So true. The average new car buyer's age is 45 - 50. If you reasearched age comparison with any defect you'll most likely come up with the same data. http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/01/down-economy-mo.html Data is a little old but still valid

Sure. On the other hand that is pretty close to what people said about South Korea in the 80's. Nowadays Hyundai, which used to be synonymous with dispose-a-cars, has now passed Toyota and Honda to become the leaderin customer satisfaction. I suspect the Chinese took a real close look at what South Korea did - first get the foreign investment and trade connections by providing cheap labour, then increase quality to move up the food chain.

Sure. On the other hand that is pretty close to what people said about South Korea in the 80's. Nowadays Hyundai, which used to be synonymous with dispose-a-cars, has now passed Toyota and Honda to become the leaderin customer satisfaction. I suspect the Chinese took a real close look at what South Korea did - first get the foreign investment and trade connections by providing cheap labour, then increase quality to move up the food chain.

As to the GP, GM "pieces of shit' are mostly china parts assembled in mexico or Canada. You cant buy an American car anymore. They dont exist.

Sure you can! The Toyota Camry made the Cars.com American-Made Index top choice in terms of domestic parts used and factories in which it was assembled.

Okay, so Toyota isn't an American company, I get your point there, but they are still have to pay taxes here and are traded on the NYSE, so any investor can invest in the profits.

IMHO (and near-total guess), I don't think this is an RIAA-type copyright nazi push. It seems in the last 2 months or so that there's been a quiet directive from the current US administration to be more protectionist. It's a stand the president can't make publicly because then everyone else will follow suit, but it seems that in the quest for jobs, they want to try to encourage domestic consumption.

I mean first off you've got the DOT secretary going nuts about Toyota. Deserved? Maybe. Did the Secretary help the situation by saying "don't drive your cars"? Definitely not. Then there's NSA's involvement with the China/Google issue. More government involvement that seems out of place. The "Buy American" clause, changes in tax breaks announced at the State of the Union address, blah blah blah.

So if that's the case, then I focused in on the part of the summary about "policies and practices in foreign countries". Reading the actual docket, the request for info is strictly about what countries should be placed on a watch list, not what policies etc (searching iPods at the border) should be (or not be) in place. It's JUST about what countries out there are making fake CDs and handbags etc. and need to be placed on the "watch list".

I'll bet a fake Rolex that China ends up on the watch list.

Lets see... Kia, Hyundai, Mitsubishi and GM all offer 10-year powertrain warranties (that's "engine parts, transmission, drive system") on new cars. Chrysler's powertrain is covered for "lifetime" as long as you keep a record of proper maintenance.

Yeah, that's not "bumper-to-bumper" coverage, but TCP/IP is pretty damn close to an "essential" part of the car.

There's some interest in small cars with small engines in the US, but you've got to admit that it isn't that substantial. Small cars sell in Europe and Japan, but larger cars sell in the US. A large part of this is due to perceptions of safety; your family will be perfectly safe if they're encased by a 4-ton steel cage.

The Top 10 Best-Selling Cars of 2008
* Ford F-Series: 515,513
* Chevy Silverado: 465,065
* Toyota Camry: 436,617
* Honda Accord: 372,789
* Toyota Corolla: 351,007
* Honda Civic: 339,289
* Nissan Altima: 269,668
* Chevy Impala: 265,840
* Dodge Ram: 245,840
* Honda CR-V: 197,279

Three large trucks, and a crossover SUV make the list. Notice also that the Accord outsells the Civic, and the Camry outsells the Corolla. Large cars sell.

Personally, I believe that maneuverability is more important to safety than structural integrity, so my personal choice for less than $50k would be a Lotus Elise, but I don't have kids, and I realize I'm not in the majority.

Maybe be some bizarre coincidence you personally really do "see so many Minis and Smart FourTwos on the road," but that is not representative of the entire American car population.

Trucks and mid-size sedans are by far more popular than compact cars. Source: http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/01/the-top-10-best.html

About 20 to 30 thousand Mini Coopers and FourTwos sold last year. The Ford F Series sold half a million trucks last year. Sources: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/25/u-s-smart-fortwo-sales-so-strong-penske-wants-15-000-more/ and http://blogs.automobilemag.com/6271167/car-news/2008-mini-cooper-us-sales-hit-a-new-peak/index.html.

Where can I go to a car dealership and buy a brand new 2004 model car?

Some car makers in at least the United States offer programs where a dealer will inspect and refurbish a vehicle according to the maker's specification, and the maker will provide a warranty. I first heard about such a certified pre-owned program from a Lexus commercial.

• The Lexus LS460 parallel parks on its own.
• Mercedes introduced a radar Cruise Control system on its S-Class to automatically slow the car or stop it completely if the car in front is braking. (Adaptive CC is now on several German cars.)
• The new VW Passat CC has "Lane Assist" to correct the car if it senses that it's drifting out of a lane.

So where does that leave us? We now have cars that will follow other cars to the point of stopping entirely, can park themselves, will stay in the lane on their own (to a point)...the obvious goal here is to remove more & more of human input from driving.

So can we just skip all of this crap and go right to the computer-driven car, so we never have to worry about insurance premiums, speeding tickets, drink-driving, falling asleep at the wheel, and all of the rest of the nonsense that goes along with cars?

On the flip side, if you're a sports-car enthusiast, this is likely to be the last generation where one can purchase a raw, loud, driver's car. We're going to wind up like the character in Rush's Red Barchetta before we know it.

I'd like to ask if you actually own a Prius, and if you've actually paid attention to their ratings.

According to even the EPA, the 40mpg rating is overstated. This reviewer got the same mileage overall that I get in my car.

The Prius does not in most cases for most people achieve more than 40mpg on the highway with non-aggressive driving, and does substantially worse if you drive aggressively due to the substantially lower power to weight ratio.

In-town driving is another issue altogether, and if that's all you do, then yay for you. Personally I drive over 30,000km a year and most of it is highway driving.

PS, I paid less than $17,000 for my GM. Want to calculate how efficient that Prius would have to be to compensate for the price difference? Didn't think so.