Slashdot Mirror

Indeed. I can't speak to how authoritative this is, but some choice parts:

I called this report questionable for a few reasons. Nikkei is generally a respected publication and they do seem to often have good sources, especially in the Asian business world and specifically in Japan, where Panasonic is based. But in this case, they don’t even cite sources and state everything as a matter of fact.....Also, the report states that Panasonic is suspending a planned investment in Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai, but we didn’t even know that they planned to invest in Gigafactory 3.

Here's some actual data to prove my point. Your fantasy of no oil change, no repair ICE cars is busted.

https://electrek.co/2019/03/18...

People keep trotting out the Volt as the ideal in these responses...

Which is ironic, considering GM has announced the Volt is being discontinued.

https://electrek.co/2018/11/26...

Now you have: via Electrek.

Reportedly this is true. See here.

V2 vs. V3 charging

The charge time to 50% charge really is close to half that of the V2 charger. I suspect future SW updates will optimize this somewhat further.

It recharges 1000 miles of driving in an hour.

Which isn't true. Overall the new system (including preconditioning the battery) reduces the charge time by about 33%. What used to take 60 minutes can now be done in 40 minutes. The 250 kW charge rate is only maintained up until about 16% state of charge.

It's still a very good improvement, but don't believe the hype.

As for the numbers... well this story has already been debunked last week on electrek.

Short version: the one person company who made the analysis doesn't understand statistics that well and bases his conclusion on 1% of the total amount of autopilot driven distance...

I can only think of one reason for disinformation around this subject: stock price manipulation!

As I pointed out to somebody else below, America, like most of the west, has gone down every year for the last 10, until this year. China has grown every year ( or flattened for a couple of years ), for the last 30+ years.

And as needed to be pointed out in return: China + India have about seven times the population of the United States. That means that they get to pollute seven times as much. As someone else pointed out, we don't say the Vatican is free to pollute just as much as the United States, because reasons. And much of the pollution generated in China is used to produce consumer products for entitled westerners.

We NEED to quit that and instead, push for SMRs like NuScale.

Yeah, no. Putting risk aside, nuclear power will never touch the cost effectiveness of wind and solar with a 20 light year pole. And the baseload BS that people love to trot out on wind and solar applies moreso to nuclear, as plants shut down for planned (or worse unplanned) maintenance all the time. Which means you need to build spare generators to pick up the slack when one of your plants goes down for days, weeks, months or sometimes even years at a time.

It would be cheaper, take less time, and involve none of the risk to just build extra wind and solar capacity into the grid and back it up with the sort of pumped storage that's used to back up nuclear power, or a Tesla Powerpack like they built in Australia, one that will pay for itself in a couple more years.

Um

https://www.hitachicm.com/glob...

How cute, not quite the size of a Tesla Model 3.

https://www.heavyequipmentguid...

More pocket rocket!

https://www.theconstructionind...

Even more pocket rocket!

https://www.theconstructionind...

Diesel-electric huh...won't solve your fumes problem I don't think.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018...

A commentary piece with encouraging words such as "development...coming...hydrogen fuel cell..."

https://electrek.co/2017/09/17...

So a single prototype demonstrator can work along all the diesel workhorse equipment.

tldr: fuck off ShortWilly, 140ManDickhead262Jamuna

Um

https://www.hitachicm.com/glob...
https://www.heavyequipmentguid...
https://www.theconstructionind...
https://www.theconstructionind...
https://cleantechnica.com/2018...
https://electrek.co/2017/09/17...

Also the second shipment to Europe will also arrive at Zeebrugge shortly.

And Musk is in Europe, supervising the Model 3 roll-out in Europe:

https://electrek.co/2019/02/09...

The problem with renewable energy is not so much the price to do so but the cost of not running non renewable energy.

... you need enough standby generation to cover those low days and they are going to get paid if they run or not.

THIS. I'd upvote you to 6 but I don't have any points, never mind cascading points.

All these guys with renewables forget they're not 100% dependable and unless you want to be in the dark you need a backup source ready to go within seconds, not construction years. And 10x overproduction is great, but at night none of the solar banks are busy. I want an average load-out with peaks, but I've got variable input that ranges from 0-200%. NOT the same thing.

It's kind of interesting what tesla is doing in Australia

THAT. Besides pushing trains or water uphill or spinning wheels or compressing air, that's the only innovation I've heard in a long time. And they're doing it with millisecond quantity, not just supporting a hospital or single neighborhood. (30,000 homes for an hour.)

Informative AND pretty pictures: One, Two, Three, Four, Five.

The problem with renewable energy is not so much the price to do so but the cost of not running non renewable energy.

... you need enough standby generation to cover those low days and they are going to get paid if they run or not.

THIS. I'd upvote you to 6 but I don't have any points, never mind cascading points.

All these guys with renewables forget they're not 100% dependable and unless you want to be in the dark you need a backup source ready to go within seconds, not construction years. And 10x overproduction is great, but at night none of the solar banks are busy. I want an average load-out with peaks, but I've got variable input that ranges from 0-200%. NOT the same thing.

It's kind of interesting what tesla is doing in Australia

THAT. Besides pushing trains or water uphill or spinning wheels or compressing air, that's the only innovation I've heard in a long time. And they're doing it with millisecond quantity, not just supporting a hospital or single neighborhood. (30,000 homes for an hour.)

Informative AND pretty pictures: One, Two, Three, Four, Five.

Holy fuck, when did Tesla increase its employees by 30% last year?

It was mentioned in the very email that announced the 7% downsizing, for starters. Or if you want lots of links documenting the hiring, here's the hiring spree they went on after their Q2 layoff last year, here's the rate of growth at GF1 alone, etc.

Holy fuck, when did Tesla increase its employees by 30% last year?

It was mentioned in the very email that announced the 7% downsizing, for starters. Or if you want lots of links documenting the hiring, here's the hiring spree they went on after their Q2 layoff last year, here's the rate of growth at GF1 alone, etc.

Somebody is already doing that

https://electrek.co/2018/09/24... or it could be like this.

Nope, guess again redneck

I was born well north of the Mason–Dixon line, but thanks for playing the "irrelevant personal attack" card.

the average new car price in the US last was $36,978

The average is skewed by wealth inequality in the US. The average middle class American can't afford a new car priced at the median average.

Far cheaper as well, at $0.11 it costs about as much as 2-3 gallons of gas to charge a Tesla from completely flat.

According to the EPA sticker on the Model 3, the estimated savings is $4,500 over 5 years. If the objective is purely to save money, a cheaper car still wins hands down.

The Prius was used as an example because the battery packs are showing that they are outlasting the idiot naysayers like yourself by leaps and bounds.

Being utilized in a hybrid, the Prius batteries aren't subject to the same usage patterns as an EV. We already do know what happens to EV batteries when they're run hard with improper cooling - older Nissan Leafs have extremely poor resale value due to suffering extreme battery degradation. It is also reasonable to assume that since the lithium battery technology used in current generation EVs is similar to battery technology used in portable electronics, that expecting them to last well over a decade (again, the average vehicle age in the USA) might be a bit too optimistic.

Redneck doesn't mean southern dipshit.

Wealth inequality is the weakest argument possible you could make for the average price of a car, since the poor buy used cars.

A cheaper car is still going to be the EV as per the link to Auto Trader dumbass, You can drop $5000 on an used all electric today that still has a few years left on it's warranty and charge it at home saving far more in transportation costs.

Except that they are using vented NiMH or LiFePO4 cells and not sealed Li-Ion pouch cells, which are the ones that are known for bulging and exploding, hence why you don't see hybrid and electric cars going up like Ford Pintos in crashes.

You still haven't made a single valid or evidence based claim you stupid mother fucker. And no, I don't have to be nice to a willful idiot.

Nope, guess again redneck

I was born well north of the Mason–Dixon line, but thanks for playing the "irrelevant personal attack" card.

the average new car price in the US last was $36,978

The average is skewed by wealth inequality in the US. The average middle class American can't afford a new car priced at the median average.

Far cheaper as well, at $0.11 it costs about as much as 2-3 gallons of gas to charge a Tesla from completely flat.

According to the EPA sticker on the Model 3, the estimated savings is $4,500 over 5 years. If the objective is purely to save money, a cheaper car still wins hands down.

The Prius was used as an example because the battery packs are showing that they are outlasting the idiot naysayers like yourself by leaps and bounds.

Being utilized in a hybrid, the Prius batteries aren't subject to the same usage patterns as an EV. We already do know what happens to EV batteries when they're run hard with improper cooling - older Nissan Leafs have extremely poor resale value due to suffering extreme battery degradation. It is also reasonable to assume that since the lithium battery technology used in current generation EVs is similar to battery technology used in portable electronics, that expecting them to last well over a decade (again, the average vehicle age in the USA) might be a bit too optimistic.

Because there's no such thing as *Grid Scale* batteries.-> FIFY

Or... maybe there is now.

BTW, The M3 has a battery that was designed by Tesla and is considered to be Teslas. With over 3000 charge cycles, it still remains in the 80+% range. It is also considered the cheapest and best battery out there.

Musk failed so miserably with Tesla.
I mean Tesla loses even against "domestic" competition like the Chevrolet Bolt which beat the snot out of Tesla Model 3 by 20% price-wise.

LOL. The Chevy Bolt sold 3,949 cars in the third quarter of 2018; at the same time, Tesla was making and selling more Model 3 cars per week than that. For the whole quarter Tesla sold 55,840 Model 3 cars. That's over 14 times the sales.

The Model 3 costs more, but it's also a better car than the Bolt, and it appears that customers are willing to pay the premium.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/chevy-bolt-ev-sales-slumping-us/

In November 2018, the Tesla Model 3 was the 6th highest selling car on the market, period. The Model 3 outsold the Ford Fusion and the Nissan Sentra. It sold about double compared to Volkswagen Jetta and about triple compared to the Toyota Prius.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/08/tesla-model-3-completely-crushing-us-luxury-car-competition-10-cleantechnica-charts/

In fairness, the above is with a $7,500 tax credit. That credit will be reducing soon and then will go away. But by then, Tesla should have their $35,000 model available to sell.

Elon Musk had hoped to have the $35K car available by the end of 2018. That's not happening but it looks like it will happen in the first half of 2019.

https://insideevs.com/base-35000-tesla-model-3-production-8-months/

Another fun fact: the Honda Civic and the Honda Accord are two of the top five trade-ins of Model 3 customers.

https://electrek.co/2018/08/01/tesla-model-3-top-5-trade-in-cars/

I don't think the word "failure" is the right word to describe Tesla or the Model 3. I expected it to beat the stuffing out of the BMW 3-series and other luxury cars; I didn't expect it to be competitive with the Honda Civic or the Nissan Sentra.

Also, for your prediction about Japanese car makers beating Tesla to come true, the Japanese car makers are going to need a guaranteed source of batteries. Tesla spent the big money to build their own battery factory, which at the same time gives them the lowest cost on batteries and a guaranteed supply of batteries. There will be millions of Tesla cars on the road before any other company can even begin to compete with them.

Musk failed so miserably with Tesla.
I mean Tesla loses even against "domestic" competition like the Chevrolet Bolt which beat the snot out of Tesla Model 3 by 20% price-wise.

LOL. The Chevy Bolt sold 3,949 cars in the third quarter of 2018; at the same time, Tesla was making and selling more Model 3 cars per week than that. For the whole quarter Tesla sold 55,840 Model 3 cars. That's over 14 times the sales.

The Model 3 costs more, but it's also a better car than the Bolt, and it appears that customers are willing to pay the premium.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/chevy-bolt-ev-sales-slumping-us/

In November 2018, the Tesla Model 3 was the 6th highest selling car on the market, period. The Model 3 outsold the Ford Fusion and the Nissan Sentra. It sold about double compared to Volkswagen Jetta and about triple compared to the Toyota Prius.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/08/tesla-model-3-completely-crushing-us-luxury-car-competition-10-cleantechnica-charts/

In fairness, the above is with a $7,500 tax credit. That credit will be reducing soon and then will go away. But by then, Tesla should have their $35,000 model available to sell.

Elon Musk had hoped to have the $35K car available by the end of 2018. That's not happening but it looks like it will happen in the first half of 2019.

https://insideevs.com/base-35000-tesla-model-3-production-8-months/

Another fun fact: the Honda Civic and the Honda Accord are two of the top five trade-ins of Model 3 customers.

https://electrek.co/2018/08/01/tesla-model-3-top-5-trade-in-cars/

I don't think the word "failure" is the right word to describe Tesla or the Model 3. I expected it to beat the stuffing out of the BMW 3-series and other luxury cars; I didn't expect it to be competitive with the Honda Civic or the Nissan Sentra.

Also, for your prediction about Japanese car makers beating Tesla to come true, the Japanese car makers are going to need a guaranteed source of batteries. Tesla spent the big money to build their own battery factory, which at the same time gives them the lowest cost on batteries and a guaranteed supply of batteries. There will be millions of Tesla cars on the road before any other company can even begin to compete with them.

Let's imagine that was true. It isn't, but let's pretend.

It is true. Current EV rebates in California are about $10,000. With half a million purchased, that's around $5 billion; if anything, the original estimate may be a bit low.

We know that fossil fuels get $22 trillion in subsidies EACH YEAR.

That's not true... Citation needed. That is greater than the GDP of the US, the EU, or China. That's pretty much a straight-out lie. So - yeah. Citation needed.

Now, want to tell me which of those numbers is the more significant?

A real $5 billion, or a fake $22 trillion? The real $5 billion. Additionally, the $5 billion is directed to those who can afford, on average, $60,000+ cars. So it's a gift to the top 10%. Any subsidies to oil benefit everyone, from the rich with their supercars and private jets to the poor using a plastic bag at the grocery store or buying new tennis shoes.

If you think cars shouldn't be subsidized, fine. Abolish the subsidies on fossil fuels as well. All of it. Go on. Or is it only causes you agree with that get handouts?

Great! Let's do it! And let's also include subsidies for renewable energy - energy source for energy source, right? Because actual US subsidies don't fall as you think they do. Taxes paid by just ExxonMobil and Chevron are easily 3 times the most generous "subsidies" list you can reasonably come up with. ExxonMobil and Chevron paid $45 billion in just Federal taxes in 2012, compared to a supposed $15 billion in "subsidies" for the entire US industry.

Autopilot lanekeeping & collision-avoidance is now better on average at avoiding accidents than most human drivers.

This (along with the assumption that autopilot is always going to be operational and operate as intended) is clearly the assumption underlying your entire post, and I'd be surprised if you have any real data to back that. If you'd like to share some, I'd be happy to look at it. (Remember, it has to span a reasonable sample of all potential weather conditions, road conditions, and routes, not just a cherry-picked sandbox.)

A car stopped on the shoulder creates an active road hazard for everyone else.

Limited-access highways are designed with emergency breakdown lanes that put the car completely out of the travel lanes. The only reason a car outside the travel lanes would cause a hazard to people inside the travel lanes is if the people inside the travel lanes are driving unsafely.

Again, where's the data to show that keeping a 2018 semi-autonomous vehicle rolling down the highway without a conscious driver is safer in the aggregate than pulling that car to the side of the road?

Following lines & not colliding is easy.

Yeah. Just ask Joshua Brown.

Ah, the first random brainfart that entered the tiny mind of an internet dweeb. Yes, I'm sure it does.

What's needed is a thing called "storage". Tesla has been busy providing solutions to that:

https://electrek.co/2018/01/23...

Of course now you're going to say "what if there's no wind or sun for a whole month?"

Haters gonna hate.

There is a Model S that has done 400,000 miles in 3 years. It's had two battery replacements during that time (under warranty), but the maintenance cost for the vehicle is a fraction of the cost of an equivalent luxury sedan.

One of those battery replacements was due to always charging to 100%.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17...

ESTIMATED BASE PRICE: $37,000 Wheelbase: 102.4 in Length: 164.6 in Width: 70.9 in Height: 61.2 in Passenger volume: 93 cu ft Cargo volume: 19 cu ft Curb weight (C/D est): 3715 lb PERFORMANCE (C/D EST) Zero to 60 mph: 7.6 sec Standing ¼-mile: 16.0 sec Top speed: 104 mph EPA FUEL ECONOMY Combined/city/highway: 120/132/108 MPGe EV range: 258 miles

THis speaks more about the MSRP on the Kona based on what they are charging in norway.

Luckily, local media is reporting that in Norway, the 64kWh is going to be 325.900 kr. At today’s exchange rate, that translates to $39,852. But it isn’t that simple.

How does this compare to Model 3? Wheelbase 113.2 in (2,880 mm) Length 184.8 in (4,690 mm) Width 76.1 in (1,930 mm) Height 56.8 in (1,440 mm) Curb weight Standard RWD: 3,552 lb (1,611 kg)[5] Standard Dual-Motor AWD: 3,757 lb (1,704 kg)[5] Mid-Range RWD: 3,686 lb (1,672 kg)[5] Long-Range RWD: 3,814 lb (1,730 kg)[5][6] Long-Range Dual-Motor AWD (including Performance): 4,072 lb (1,847 kg)[5] Electric range 220 mi (350 km) Standard[3] 260 mi (420 km) Mid Range (est. EPA-rated)[4] 310 mi (500 km) Long Range (EPA-rated)[3] Here is info on Model 3's performance

It looks like it can be pushed to accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 3.3 seconds and travel a quarter-mile in 11.8 seconds without any mods. ... Last month, Musk said that Tesla Model 3 Performance’s 0-60 mph time could improve to under 3.3 seconds with even better tires.

Of course, at the track, the model 3 is being improved to take on and beat Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc.
Of course, the $35,000 Model 3 has yet to show up, but then again the $37-40K Kona is not out either.

As to the other that you list, you have to be kidding. Nissan/Renault started much later than Tesla and has pure junk. Same with BYD.
And as to reliability, MS is great. MX has issues early on with manufacturing, as did M3. All of those have been fixed (though I question it when Musk pushes the lines).

ESTIMATED BASE PRICE: $37,000 Wheelbase: 102.4 in Length: 164.6 in Width: 70.9 in Height: 61.2 in Passenger volume: 93 cu ft Cargo volume: 19 cu ft Curb weight (C/D est): 3715 lb PERFORMANCE (C/D EST) Zero to 60 mph: 7.6 sec Standing ¼-mile: 16.0 sec Top speed: 104 mph EPA FUEL ECONOMY Combined/city/highway: 120/132/108 MPGe EV range: 258 miles

THis speaks more about the MSRP on the Kona based on what they are charging in norway.

Luckily, local media is reporting that in Norway, the 64kWh is going to be 325.900 kr. At today’s exchange rate, that translates to $39,852. But it isn’t that simple.

How does this compare to Model 3? Wheelbase 113.2 in (2,880 mm) Length 184.8 in (4,690 mm) Width 76.1 in (1,930 mm) Height 56.8 in (1,440 mm) Curb weight Standard RWD: 3,552 lb (1,611 kg)[5] Standard Dual-Motor AWD: 3,757 lb (1,704 kg)[5] Mid-Range RWD: 3,686 lb (1,672 kg)[5] Long-Range RWD: 3,814 lb (1,730 kg)[5][6] Long-Range Dual-Motor AWD (including Performance): 4,072 lb (1,847 kg)[5] Electric range 220 mi (350 km) Standard[3] 260 mi (420 km) Mid Range (est. EPA-rated)[4] 310 mi (500 km) Long Range (EPA-rated)[3] Here is info on Model 3's performance

It looks like it can be pushed to accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 3.3 seconds and travel a quarter-mile in 11.8 seconds without any mods. ... Last month, Musk said that Tesla Model 3 Performance’s 0-60 mph time could improve to under 3.3 seconds with even better tires.

Of course, at the track, the model 3 is being improved to take on and beat Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc.
Of course, the $35,000 Model 3 has yet to show up, but then again the $37-40K Kona is not out either.

As to the other that you list, you have to be kidding. Nissan/Renault started much later than Tesla and has pure junk. Same with BYD.
And as to reliability, MS is great. MX has issues early on with manufacturing, as did M3. All of those have been fixed (though I question it when Musk pushes the lines).

It is done in Europe since a decade.

No it hasn't been done for a decade in Europe or anywhere else. There have been some baby steps in the last 2-3 years. Nissan and some others have been working on the problem recently but we're just now seeing early versions of the technology roll out. I am not aware of any technology for a Tesla or Bolt EV that would permit direct use of the traction battery to power your home much less the grid. This isn't because it isn't possible but just because they haven't bothered to work on the the problem.

Honestly it seems ridiculous to me that EV makers (Tesla especially) aren't using this as a fantastic way to show how they are better than ICE vehicles. The marketing almost writes itself.

Angelo has a pretty strong track record of completely making shit up. Note that there is never a link with his claims to back up his BS. He just says what he wants to be true, regardless of whether it is or not.

It is done in Europe since a decade.

No it hasn't been done for a decade in Europe or anywhere else. There have been some baby steps in the last 2-3 years. Nissan and some others have been working on the problem recently but we're just now seeing early versions of the technology roll out. I am not aware of any technology for a Tesla or Bolt EV that would permit direct use of the traction battery to power your home much less the grid. This isn't because it isn't possible but just because they haven't bothered to work on the the problem.

Honestly it seems ridiculous to me that EV makers (Tesla especially) aren't using this as a fantastic way to show how they are better than ICE vehicles. The marketing almost writes itself.

Oooo, they are now?
[...]
Oh, no, seems like they are trying to provide a LOCK-IN repair experience.

Wow, such drama.

You're right of course that if you want to fix your own car, Tesla is the wrong brand to buy.

Tesla promised they were "working on" opening up repairs. They said this 22 months ago and there has been no news about it since then as far as I know.

https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-opening-up-service-replacement-parts/

The good news is that Teslas are quite easy to repair, assuming you can get the parts.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/Tesla-Owner-Frustrated-Fixes-Model-S-491889781.html

Elon Musk has said that they will open up repairs eventually but hasn't promised a specific time. He has also said that Tesla will only try to break-even on repairs, never treat them as a profit center. Musk is a believer in Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming and wants to get everyone switched over to electric cars, so I don't think he's lying about the repairs, but I must admit that there's no end in sight to Tesla being uncooperative about owner and third-party repairs.

Sensationalist FUD much? Microsoft has never updated Windows 10 with such a jarring UI change. The Windows 10 steering wheel is where it has always been, as is every other fundamental control you need to use the OS.

A more accurate description would be owning a car and waking up to find the air-conditioning controls now have a few different control options, oh and as part of that it set itself back from Celsius to Fahrenheit, also additional prompts now come up with different alarms while driving. Maybe the dashboard speed indicators have changed colours.

Sounds horrible doesn't it?

Personally it's a feature of exactly the car I want to buy: https://electrek.co/2018/09/03...

Your information is incorrect. I drive a 2014 Volt. It still has the same range as I had at the start of ownership (6K miles) as today (50K miles). By your logic I would be replacing the battery pack. I'm not. Not even close. Chevrolet also provides a 8 year/80K mile warranty on the drivetrain -- including the battery. Would GM offer a warranty that would require two replacements of the battery on average? There are at this point more than 70 EVs at my office from a range of manufacturers. I'm in touch with a lot of that community. No battery replacements. There are longevity tests conducted by Idaho National Labs (a US DOE testing facility) that show the battery of an EV will last hundreds of thousands of miles. A nice summary with backing data for the Volt is presented here Tesla owners have gathered real world data to show 10% degradation at 160K miles There are many other such studies in this vein. Batteries are also to some extent like hard drives. They are sold with extra capacity to allow for failure of cells over the vehicle lifetime. Hard drives and SSDs also have this same capacity with blocks/sectors the user cannot access but are remapped as others fail. So even if a battery drops 10% of its capacity, the range presented may not change. Or in the case of the Volt, a 10% change in capacity would present itself as the loss of a couple of miles of range.

Um, huh? Tesla's Autopilot had driven 1,2 billion miles as of July. Two orders of magnitude more than Waymo.

Uh, Tesla's "autopilot" is a driver assist, not a self-driving vehicle. And it racks up the miles on expressways-- that's the easy kind of driving.

So, no, not the same thing.

10 million miles is really nothing. In the US, there's only one fatal accident per 86 million miles on average.

Indeed, that's the metric to compare to. But not all miles driven are the same.

Competing with other companies with autonomous-vehicle programs like Uber, Tesla, Apple, and GM's Cruise, Waymo is leading the pack in terms of road miles driven.

Um, huh? Tesla's Autopilot had driven 1,2 billion miles as of July. Two orders of magnitude more than Waymo.

10 million miles is really nothing. In the US, there's only one fatal accident per 86 million miles on average.

Don't be silly, your local taxi can still have an accident. https://electrek.co/2017/12/14...

Article Topic: "Model 3 Achieves NHTSA's 'Lowest Probability' of Injury Ever"

GGP: "...either way, the tesla 3 goes on my list of 'cars to buy'..."

You: "Except for your extremely high probability of burning to death in a battery fire."

Me: "With a couple hundred million miles under their belt, the total number of battery fires in customer-owned Model 3s..."

You: "Go to Youtube and you will see plenty of videos of Tesla's on fire"

Notice how everyone else was talking about the Model 3 but you.

Why are you so intensely interested in a car that only 0.001% of the planet can even afford?

Wrong.

The top 5 cars people are trading in to buy Model 3s are: Toyota Prius, BMW 3-Series, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Nissan Leaf.

It isn't "green". No personal car is "green"

That's like saying about rhubarb vs. water hemlock, "It isn't nontoxic. No food is devoid of toxic compounds". While true, people need cars and not all cars are equal.

Are you getting paid to shill for Tesla?

My Shill Check strangely hasn't arrived! Do you know where it might be? Does this mean that they've gone Bankwupt?! ;)

What is it?

Um, exactly what it says on the tin? I like the cars, I like the tech, and I like the company.

Interesting, I found a picture of you on the internet.

Note that my statement was about specifically the Model 3. There's not merely "a couple hundred million miles" on S and X; Tesla's total miles as of April (when Model 3 miles were low) was 7,2 billion. Also, S and X use a different battery tech from the 3 (but are still an order of magnitude less likely to catch on fire than a gasoline car).

Jesus, I can't believe I'm falling for a piece of shit troll. Thanks a lot, now I'm wasting my time going through your bullshit.
Fine. FINE.
Here's a report of a Nissan Leaf catching fire.
Mitsubishi has had problems with their Lithium Ion batteries overheating, it resulted in a temporary halting of the production of the model.
Apparently the Dodge Ram had a hybrid for awhile (who knew?). They were designed to have a reverse power flow, so vehicles plugged in could power a building in the case of a power outage, but the battery packs overheated again.
GM redesigned the Chevrolet Volt to reduce the chance of fires in an accident.
There are a number of incidents with a bunch of smaller EV manufacturers outside of the US as well.

Believe what you want; facts state otherwise. I know it's hard to comprehend the rate at which they're churning out battery capacity, but it's reality whether you want to believe it or not.

The complete reversal and over the top priase, doesn't at all smell like money changed hands.

Oh, money changed hands all right. But it didn't involve Tesla.

UBS (an investment company that has been consistently anti-Tesla) paid Munro Associates to perform the Model 3 teardown. Munro's initial impression of the Model 3 was prior to the teardown, and they rightfully focused on the car's poor fit and finish. But after completing the teardown and realizing just how inexpensive the car would be to manufacture, Munro had to "eat crow", and publicly, otherwise his company would look foolish and it would hurt his business in the long run.

But then some "unknown entity" sued Munro over his latest "Model 3 is insanely profitable" pronouncement. It's pretty clear to everybody that the unknown entity is UBS. This didn't fit in with their narrative on the Tesla Model 3. Shortly afterwards, UBS put out their own hastily-organized teardown analysis of the Tesla Model 3, stating that it is unprofitable. By that point, a second teardown analysis by a German firm confirmed Munro's finding that the Model 3 will be profitable.

The complete reversal and over the top priase, doesn't at all smell like money changed hands.

Oh, money changed hands all right. But it didn't involve Tesla.

UBS (an investment company that has been consistently anti-Tesla) paid Munro Associates to perform the Model 3 teardown. Munro's initial impression of the Model 3 was prior to the teardown, and they rightfully focused on the car's poor fit and finish. But after completing the teardown and realizing just how inexpensive the car would be to manufacture, Munro had to "eat crow", and publicly, otherwise his company would look foolish and it would hurt his business in the long run.

But then some "unknown entity" sued Munro over his latest "Model 3 is insanely profitable" pronouncement. It's pretty clear to everybody that the unknown entity is UBS. This didn't fit in with their narrative on the Tesla Model 3. Shortly afterwards, UBS put out their own hastily-organized teardown analysis of the Tesla Model 3, stating that it is unprofitable. By that point, a second teardown analysis by a German firm confirmed Munro's finding that the Model 3 will be profitable.

No, sorry. they don't.

They don't even have one.

Here's one.

It is pretty easy to compete if you don't have to make a profit. Ford turns a nice profit and a nice 6.5% dividend on top of it. Tesla loses thousands (nearly $18,000) on every vehicle it sells. EVs really don't compete on range (most modern cars can go 350+ miles on a single tank), on cost (well, only if they give them away at a loss AND get a fat Government subsidy added in), and most can't compete on performance (yes, there is "ludicrous" mode, but you will permanently lower the capacity of your car with a few too many hard launches), take hours to charge versus a few minutes, and unless you really dig the "iPad in the dash" or a Maserati-esque styling, just aren't cool.

Tesla are making about 30% on their cars: https://electrek.co/2018/07/16..

Only if you don't count the Model 3. Tesla's own numbers tells a different story:

Gross margin for total automotive decreased from 28% to 21% in the three months ended June 30, 2018 as compared to the three months ended June 30, 2017.

Nope.

Tesla are making about 30% on their cars: https://electrek.co/2018/07/16...

That's a much higher margin than gasoline car makers are getting and shows that Tesla has a huge start on everybody, "special technology" or not.

Why do american car companies insist on building stuff people can't afford anyways en masse? don't they realize that 80 000 dollar + cars are an extreme luxury, just because they live rich themselves? is it because they can't optimize their production for worth shit?

They have years of back-orders right now, why would they sell for less?

(and they aren't even taking orders in all countries yet!)

  because Musk sure as fuck sold the cheapo model of the 3 but can't deliver.

Targets are being met, production is on schedule.

OMG, a car caught fire - quick, get breathless overcoverage of it! Wait, you already did? Good!

There's one car fire in the US for every 20 million miles driven and one fatality per 85 million miles.

Teslas have been driven 9 billion miles. This should correspond to 450 fires and 106 deaths.

Where are they?

Concerning fires, here's a list of Tesla fires between 1 January 2013 and 11 March 2018, which is the vast majority of Tesla miles. The total count? 14. Vs. an expected 450.

Concerning fatalities, three months ago an anti-Tesla Twitter account added up the number of deaths in Teslas and arrived at 34. Note that many of these occurred in other countries like China that have a much higher road fatality rate than the US. It's still a third of the expected number for US-only driving of that many miles.

Let's look at the newest Teslas, shall we - the Model 3? So far there have been no fatalities and no reports of fires in customer cars (there was one Model 3 found up for scrap that had been gutted by fire, but it was "Location: Fremont" with 1 mile on the odometer, so clearly something that happened at the factory. Also, the fire damage was heaviest on the bumper, where it had melted the alumium - but hadn't managed to do so over the pack itself. So it's not clear that a battery fire was actually involved). But how many miles have been driven for this rate of "0/1 fires and 0 deaths"?

Lacking specific numbers, the best we can do is estimate. The average driver drives around 12k miles per year. Owners of new cars put significantly more miles on them during their first year, and particularly first few months because - obviously - it's a new car that they bought because they wanted to drive it. Bloomberg says there were around 25k made in the past month (0-1m ago), 19k in the previous month (1-2m ago), then 13,5k (2-3m ago), then 9k (3-4m ago), the 9k (4-5m ago), then 6,5k (5-6m ago), and 9k earlier than that. So around 19k*(30k/12)*0,5 + 13,5k*(30k/12)*1,5 + 9k*(26k/12)*2,5 + 9k*(23k/12)*3,5 + 6,5k*(21k/12)*4,5 + 9k*(18k/12)*6 = ~315M miles. Meaning if they were gasoline cars we should expect 16 fires and 3 1/2 deaths. Where are they?