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In offering the iMac in a 24" version it didn't just get a bigger screen. It got more pixels. It is 1920*1200, making it able to natively show 1920*1080 (1080i) HDTV at full detail, something most $4000 plasma televisions don't do. They're almost all only supporting 720p natively (720 pixels tall).

Perhaps it is no coincidence that El Gato Systems set the second week of September as the ship date for their Eye TV Hybrid which allows recent Macs to watch, record and play NTSC (analog) and HDTV (off air ATSC and IIRC, Clear-QAM Cable). The combination of the Eye-TV Hybrid or the earlier Eye TV 500 (digital only) and an iMac makes a great platform for HDTV. I expect that Steve will demo the two together. I've used an Eye-TV 500 on a 20" iMac. Good program material is stunning even with some detail being lost to scaling down for the 1680 pixel width of the screen. Getting the full detail and PVR functionality on a 24" iMac will be even better.

A relative near a major US city is getting about 20 digital program channels off-air (free), not counting a bunch of foreign-language and religious offerings. Those in remote areas won't be so lucky. But there are those BT downloads, and perhaps Steve will offer us a few more things from iTMS...

Take a look at EyeTV. It's a pretty decent PVR program. I've got their EyeTV 500 hardware to receive HDTV (ATSC), but I've got an EyeTV Hybrid on order, which will do analog and digital. Add the EyeTV in full-screen mode to Front Row, and you've got a pretty competitive media center. I got rid of my DVD player, stereo, and TV, and replaced them all with a Mac mini with the EyeTV and a RadioShark.

Take a look at EyeTV. It's a pretty decent PVR program. I've got their EyeTV 500 hardware to receive HDTV (ATSC), but I've got an EyeTV Hybrid on order, which will do analog and digital. Add the EyeTV in full-screen mode to Front Row, and you've got a pretty competitive media center. I got rid of my DVD player, stereo, and TV, and replaced them all with a Mac mini with the EyeTV and a RadioShark.

Apple is probably the candidate that would benefit least from buying TiVo. TiVo's greatest asset is its superior user interface, but Apple is probably the one company that knows as much as TiVo about creating a friendly UI. If Apple wants to expand into the DVR business, it would probably make more sense for them to buy Elgato, who already make an add-on DVR for the Mac.

But my suspicion is this is exactly the opposite direction from where Apple wants to go--rather than providing a means for users to capture TV from broadcast, cable, or satellite, Apple would prefer to replace those distribution channels entirely with internet distribution--something that they are already doing for the iPod. The next step would be to expand to HD, which the newer Macs are able to handle.

I just got a Mac Mini for this very purpose. Combine it with a USB 2.0/Firewire TV Tuner and stack it on top of an external hard drive, and you've got everything you need in one nice, tiny package.

This sort of thing is already available in many forms. For Mac users its in the form of the EyeHome unit from elgato. http://www.elgato.com/
The EyeHome unit accesses media content from any Mac in your home network and displays it on your TV. It requires a small server (OK, maybe not so small - its a modded version of Tomcat) to be installed on the Macs you want to access. The EyeHome unit can then access all the media in your music and movies folders etc. I've been using this for a while and its a good alternative to having your EyeTV computer next to your TV.

Here's a (slightly more expensive) alternative for non-geeks:

1. Buy a Mac Mini

Sorry - your 'alternative' is a solution looking for a problem.

1) Your solution is a good deal more expensive then your post makes out - for instance if you want to burn to CD/DVD using EyeTv you have to purchase roxio toast (and that is not the only hidden cost)

2) MythTV gives you Mame, VOIP, Weather, Web, Gallery & music player all-in-one. Mac Mini solution does not.

3) If you really want an easy solution, rather then a look-my-mac-is-as-good-as-linux solution, just buy a dedicated PVR (with a similar set of features to eyetv) & plug it in. Lots of cable companies give them away for free now - otherwise you can pick them up for less then $100.

If you want a full featured PVR, do what this guy did (but please use knopmyth to make your life easier).

If you allready own a mini, great, buy eyeTV & assoicated peripherals.

If you just want a basic PVR, don't follow the advice above - you end up with a relatively expensive computer masquerading as $89.95 PVR.

Have you heard of Elgato Systems' EyeTV line?

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyet v500

Yeah, it's an external box. But two MacMini-sized boxes still fit into most people's entertainment shelves pretty easily. You might still need external hard drives if you want to keep a whole bunch of DVR'ed stuff, but it isn't necessary.

Also, as other people have noted, Front Row automatically finds media on other Mac's over the network, so you can yank music off of other machines too. Add in the auto-iPod-playlist (which can include TV), and it sounds like a pretty desirable set up.

--Mid

I wonder if Apple is going to go this route next. It would be certainly far more usable than a dedicated gaming console. Thats my biggest gripe about this new version:

Everyone's bitching about how this isn't the game machine they were hoping for, which just blows me away. This is obviously not Apples market historically speaking, and I doubt they'd jump into suck a market at all, much less in the middle of the way-overblown "PS3 vs. XBox360 vs. Nintendo Revolution" fight we keep reading about.

If you guys were saving up for some mythical, never before heard of Mac game box, it's no wonder you're disapointed. But why you'd be expecting such a beast is beyond me

But while I was wondering about the whole gaming thing, I was wondering if the new Mini (specifically the dual core) would be able to play recorded HD content recorded with Apple's H.264 codec. I love H.264's quality/size capabilities, but am unable to play them on my current PVR outfit (an aging, but still more than capable AMD1600 mated with a 8500DV vid' card).

I've been considering a Mini for a HD-capable PVR, but while I can purchase & record HD content using a Elgato's EyeTV-500 capture setup, I don't want to put my Mac, which is my main machine, in the living room, and the 1st generation Mini's are incapable of playing back high resolution video consistently. This new Mini sounds like it might do the trick.

And as for the games, I'm sure that the Mini will be more than capable of running Mame, ZSNES, and a variety of other gaming platforms that while not cutting edge 3-D FPS's, will entertain me and my friends for hours and hours.

Elgato makes a number of different models of TV tuner for Macs. They are USB or Firewire and depending on the model support analog, digital cable, HDTV over the air and HDTV cable signals.
I've never used them, so I can't comment on how well they work - but there is an option out there for Mac Minis.

I take it they still want me to pay $400 for a lifetime subscription or $14 per month? Yet, not allow me to export my recordings without using their proprietary app? No, thanks. I'll stick with my http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyet v500

It's not exactly a set-top box, but I currently use an EyeTV 500 to record over the air HDTV to my Mac. I love it.

Hopefully Intel will give the Mini a real good boost, then - or some magic has to be done with the tuner, because the current solution for an Apple-based PVR timeshifting 1080i HDTV requires no less than a dual G5 (click requirements on right side).

I wouldn't even dream of using one of today's Minis as an HDTV PVR. I got so frustrated with mine that I sold it.

Not to mention that unless the Mini does real-time compression it'd probably run out of disk space real fast with its 2.5" drives that currently max out at 100GB - at least, for anybody who records a lot (at 8GB/hr. for uncompressed - that is MPEG-2 - 1080i, that's at most 12 hours of recording time before something needs to be compressed, and MPEG-4 compression on today's Mac Minis is, IMHO, HORRENDOUS - it took mine 16 hours to compress MPEG-2 to H.264 MPEG-4 for a 2 hour movie - and that was at DVD res, not 1080i).

But who knows... Maybe Intel will make this bottom-rung Mac more powerful than some of the top PowerMacs out now. And I'm speculating like the rest anyway, so I hope you had your salt shakers with you while you read this comment. ;)

I found a far more more elegant solution. My "media" Mac is a G4 dual 867 MDD (wind tunnel) with 3 200gb drives and 2 more external 200gb firewire drives. It lives in the library (with my main work Mac: a Dual 1.8 G5. In the living room near the television, sharing space with the VCR, DVD, Laserdisc, and (since I am old old school) Betamax machines is a little silver box called an EyeHome

This magic thing is connected to a router (though it also works on a Airport Extreme or other wireless solution) and via Ethernet pumps avi mp4 and other formatted files to my television. It also handles digital optical sound and mp3s. My stereo system can rock to Weird Al or my collection of Dr Demento shows... Pictures can also be displayed and if you are all thumbs, Web surfing is available. It works with 10.3.9 and above (10.2.8 if you are creative) and oh yes, it works from a remote.

Fortunately I live in Britain, where all you need is a demultiplexer to grab the digital signal and record it completely unchanged on the harddisk

I'm guessing you may not get out all that often and may not be aware of the status of digital TV in the US. The transition from analog to digital began in 1998. At this point essentially all current prime time network programming is produced in HDTV and available over the air for free (more accurately: advertisement supported). It seems possible that Apple could decide to just support ATSC (the digital standard) and leave behind most of the legacy standards that will fade away in any case. A German company, elgato, has been pioneering the integration of digital television with the Mac and includes digital standards from all around the world. I would expect they would be acquired for this venture much like Astarte was for DVD authoring on the Mac.

Considering that the project here is run by computer geeks who had to search the net for hours in order to get everything working, what are the odds that this will actually become a consumer device?

As a matter of fact.
Pretty good.

The Apple Video Adaptor enables you to connect your mac mini to a regular television. (Sorry if the link doesn't work. It's from the apple store.) It costs 19.99 US.

Elgato makes TV tuners with Tivo-like recording capabilities. These products range from standard television signals, to DTT to HD, etc. Most handle encyption/decryption outside of your computer. Some even have remote controls.

If your HD television has DVI input, you can connect your mac to your HDTV without an adaptor.

So, out of the box, you are right, the mac mini doesn't do those things. Apple doesn't make pre-packaged "media machines" as some PC manufacturers do. However, it is trivial to build a system to do all of those things and more.

Taft

On the bright side, the new "Front Row" software and the remote brings the Mac closer to being a credible competitor to Windows Media Center. Once they come out with a package that includes a remote and an IR receiver (to retrofit to older Macs), I'll get that and a EyeTV and have a nice PVR without the hassle of MythTV or the shoddy quality of Microsoft software.

"If I cared about streaming video all over the house, I probably would have looked at getting my fingernails dirty with MythTV on Linux"

Actaully Elgato also sells Eye Home which lets you stream all the video you collect with the EyeTV to your TV. It is a very elegant solution.

Commercial Products and Services:

ReplayTV: TiVo's ancient nemesis, it also 'just works'. I can't say whether it is more user friendly than TiVo, but it is far more customer friendly.

Windows XP Media Center Edition: Yes, them. Choose from multiple manufacturers but expect to face Microsoft Corp's version of the 'personal' computing experience.

Hardware vendors are now pushing DVD/HD Recording devices quite a bit. RCA, Motorola and Panasonic have products available.

Service Providers like Comcast and DishTV are now providing time shifting hardware and tv-on-demand solutions. Check with your choice of cable or satellite service provider.

Hobbyist Solutions:

MythTV: The Open Source, Do-It-Yourself DVR. Expect to build your own machine and play around a bit before it works the way you want. (Linux)

Freevo: MythTV, but not. (Linux)

MediaPortal: Who ever said Open Source was limited to Linux software? (Windows)

Meedio: It was a community based freeware product (myHTPC) that morphed into a commercial product without warning. Still a reasonable alternative to Microsoft for PVR function on the Windows platform. (Windows)

eyeTV: This Mac product has me seriously considering picking up a Mini-Mac to use as a media center. (Apple)

SnapStream (Windows)

SageTV (Windows)

Chris-TV (Windows)

ShowShifter (Windows)

On a personal note, I purchased the ReplayTV when it was first released and am entirely satisfied with it. Plus, by purchasing early I have never had to pay a subscription fee for data that is freely available elsewhere. If there had been a subscription fee I would not have purchased it.

Dan

Video capture may or may not be a problem (are there Linux-friendly Firewire video capture devices?), since I haven't looked into that at all.

That's a big issue, because the main task of a VIA mini-itx board is to support a PVR setup. Many of them have onboard MPEG2 and sometimes MPEG4 acceleration. Some of them also have an IR input for a remote control. They usually have a single PCI slot which you could use for a Hauppauge card or a wireless card.

So now back to the Mac Mini:

The only video-in setup I've seen for a Mac mini via firewire is the Elgato EyeTV, which - as far as I can tell - only works on OS X. It is also rather expensive.

So after you get your Mac Mini (the SuperDrive version -- remember you want a PVR, so you probably want to record DVDs) plus keyboard and mouse, you're in for almost $800 to start. Then tack on another $300 for the EyeTV. Oh and don't forget Toast 6 Titanium for another $100 or so.

I can definitely build a mini-itx system with the same features for less that $1200. Plus it won't have the ugly external firewire gadget hanging off it.

There are no real affordable do it yourself HDTV PVR solutions.

Only if you are a rabid anti-Mac bigot.

So why hasn't it?

It is. PVR=no commercials. As they become more common, ad-funded TV will wither and die, and good riddance. Commercials are a lousy way to fund programs, a key reason being that they force networks to appeal to the lowest common denominator. 10 million viewers of a random sitcom get higher priority than 5 million devoted Firefly fans, even though the Firefly fans would be willing to collectively pay more.

Superdrive Option $100
Copy DVD to HD. Point and click, easy as pie. Freeware.
PVR over firewire. As low as $149 US

$499 mini+$100 Superdrive+$0 handbrake+$149 ATI Eyewonder USB 2.0=$648 US.

That's about 525 Euros... how attached are you to your price point? You get your PVR for 400 Euros, and on top of that you get the rest of the Mac for 125 Euros. You also have the benefit of using a general purpose machine, which means no lock-in, limitations on storage, whatever. Just plug in a firewire drive for more when you run out.

It doesn't really make sense to require it cost no more than a PVR when it is far, far more functional than one. Stickies and iCal alone can turn the TV into a great central life management area. Streaming video. iChat videochatting on the big screen makes it into a real videophone. Whatever.

In the UK where we actually need a license to watch TV (no, seriously I'm not joking) I refuse to pay for it so I don't watch TV in the home. (However I do get hassled to DEATH by the TV Licensing Nazis)

For the odd thing that I do occasionally want to watch (Dr Who for example) I have a Mac G5 installed at work with EyeTV (a PVR) set to record the things I want from the digital broadcast (MPEG2). From there I export it as MPEG4 to get the size down, then scp it to a share on the Linux server at home from where I watch it on my PowerBook.

Perfectly legal (as I'm not 'receiving broadcast services') and much more convenient for me - I'll watch things when *I* want to watch them thankyouverymuch.

The Pinnacle box converts analog video to digital. For MythTV you want a TV tuner, like the EyeTV Wonder:

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyet vwonder

Lots of people are speculating about the "iPod Video", even though Jobs and others have pointed out that while music is a "background" to daily taskes, watching a video is an action that few want to commit 2+ hrs to on a 2" screen.

But, I propose that the latest itteration of the iMac G5 is the perfect "iPod Video". Here's why:
- G5 processor can decode H.264
- Upgraded graphics cards in the iMac line can now handily manage HD video
- Beefy 1GB Eithernet can get content (from the iMovie Video Store?) in a flash (too bad Cable/DSL lines can't fill that but it's atleast faster than a USB2 iPod connection)
- BTO options for internal 400 GB at 7200 rpm means no HD lag or filled drives
- External Firewire drives and the Dual layer DVD burners in the iMac G5 allow for archiving large video libraries
- 17" and 20" flat screen options also have VESA mounts for dramatic display opportunities
- standard bluetooth means wireless keyboards and pointers from the sofa
- add an Eye TV 1080i tuner and you have a great PVR

Even if Apple introduced an "iPod Video", I am not in the market. But with an iMovie Video Store, an iMac G5, cable/ADSL modem, and a stack of dual layer media, I am in the market to dispose of my Blockbuster membership card.

http://www.elgato.com/

Look for the various EyeTV products (as the original poster mentioned). The 200 is your basic PVR stuff. The 500 is the HDTV version.

And this is with the rabbit ears sitting on a desk indoors in an office building with lots of metal everywhere (including the window frames).

Nobody is going to want to download 30+GBs of MPEG-2 video just to watch a 30-minute video (minus commercials).

Get your Numbers right

Broadcast quality mpeg-2(8 megabits) runs about a megabyte a second. So 30 minutes * 60 seconds = 1800 total seconds for a 30 minutes clip.

1.8 gigs is a far cry from 30 gigs. While that is broadcast quality and not HDTV quality, HDTV is not going to be of a 15x the size.

I did a quick google to find the size of a HDTV stream... The EyeTV guys write it up as about 8 GB an hour.

Mac Mini 1.42MHz: $599
EyeTV 500: $349

That's $950, without any upgrades. Holy crap, how can you afford that?

Somehow I'm guessing that that an Xbox/PVR combo will cost far less.

Nonsense. I have immediate use for at least that much storage, for example. Lossless music storage, ripping of DVDs (I use an eyeHome for streaming to TV), offloaded Tivo recordings, full dumps of DV tapes from my camcorder for later editing - not a torrent or pr0n stash to be had.

There's plenty of legitimate uses for large amounts of storage. Most revolve around AV it's true, but that AV needn't be swiped stuff from dodgy torrents or half of every posting ever to alt.binaries.redheads...

Cheers,
Ian

I think you're right, and that may be on the horizon, but many people want PVR now. Hence EyeTV -- am I missing something here, or does EyeTV replicate everything that TiVO offers? Why would someone buy TiVo over EyeTV?

This is probably as good a time as any to put in a plug for El Gato's products. They make some really excellent hardware and software that can do TiVo-style recording via Mac OS X. It works and works well, with no DRM whatsoever.

~jeff

MythTV including support for the Plextor ConvertX (which has linux drivers as well as a Mac flavored version bundled with Elgato's EyeTV)

*shrug*

e.

The mac mini includes firewire and USB2 ports. People using it for a media PC will generally use external hard disks and media capture cards. The EyeTV capture cards seem to be particularly popular -- You can even get HDTV working with a mini.

One of the nice things about a mac is that the non-PVR features of a HTPC, like watching DVDs, playing music, managing your picture library, and burning DVDs are Apple supported best of breed apps.

Sure. Look into the hardware from El Gato.

This, for the most part, exists already and works great. The only difference between the eyeHome and what you describe is that instead of 802.11g, the eyeHome has an ethernet port -- so you essentially bring your own internet connection.

With all of the consoles (PS2, Gamecube, and X-Box) having ethernet ports, it makes sense to put a hub next to your TV anyhow... but it would be nice if some sort of A/V bridge could act as that, too.

~jeff

Nope. It needs to become a wireless product to be even close to what I'm describing; it has to be disconnected from the PC, so it needs 802.11g. The EyeHome still needs a cable to plug into an Airport Express.

Elgato already offers something like that: EyeHome

How would this give Apple anything but TIVO's name and set-top box? Unless Apple wants to get into making set-top boxes I don't see why they would do this. If the PS3 and XBox2 incorporate PVRs in them I don't see how TIVO will survive.

Elgato sells a whole slew of PVR thingys for the Mac, and they all use hardware encoding.

Hardware accelerated PVR systems are missing from the Mac platform? You must not be familiar with EyeTV

A decent PVR setup (with hardware acceleration) has been missing for the MacOS platform.

They use hardware compression and provide a nice DV-stream to your computer. All it has to do is write it to disk.

I think that it is likely that Apple will get into the PVR business, probably once the CableCard 2.0 standard is finalized and it becomes possible for 3rd party devices to replicate and extend the function of cable boxes.

As a TiVo owner, I'd like to see Apple buy TiVo.

But as an Apple stockholder, I don't see what Apple gets out of the deal.

DVR technology? It's no great secret. There are open-source DVRs. If they want to buy the technology, Elgato is probably cheaper, and their stuff already runs on OS X.

The TiVo brandname? Apple is probably one of the few companies with little to gain from the Tivo name. Apple already has more brand recognition than TiVo, and they'd to better to merchandise a hypothetical Apple DVR as "the company that brought you the iPod" than on the basis of the less well known TiVo name.

The TiVo interface? It's impressive for a consumer electronics product, but nothing special by Apple standards. Presumably, Apple would want to roll their own, as they did for iPod.

Tivo's current customers? If they aren't making a profit for TiVo, why would they make one for Apple? Besides, Apple presumably will want to introduce something like the iTunes Music Store for HD video. This will require H.264 for efficient content delivery. Current TiVo hardware can't handle this. Presumably, current TiVo owners will be looking to upgrade in the next few years to a DVR with HD capability. Why shouldn't it be an Apple instead of a TiVo?

TiVo's patents? This is the only thing I can think of that Apple might want. But I'm not sure how crucial they are. They certainly haven't stopped cable companies from handing out competing DVRs, or Elgato from implementing one on the Mac. Still, I suppose that it is possible that TiVo has some patent that would be crucial to the kind of user experience that Apple hopes to create.

Eliminating a potential competitor for the DVR market? Again, perhaps, but at the moment TiVo isn't seeming like that big a threat.

There's gotta be a cheaper PCI option for Mac owners that want an HDTV tuner.

Intro to HD PVRs

Broadcast flag info and list of HDTV cards

And BTW, the Elgato eyetv 500 is the answer to your question.

I found myself asking this same question, too. So I put the question to the makers of the EyeTV 500. This is their response:

"EyeTV 500 does not support the broadcast flag. Units bought before July 2005 will never support the broadcast flag. We will not update EyeTV 500 units bought before then to support the flag.

Thus, your EyeTV 500 will never support the broadcast flag. It will ignore flags, and not use DRM for any content. That means you'll have the maximum freedom possible with its recordings."

It's a little pricey, but it does the compression on the box. I don't have digital cable yet, but I may buy this come May/June just for the fuck of it since pre-July box prices will probably go up dramatically come July 2 (on the black market, of course, since the law bans all inter-state trade of these devices).

The EFF's BayFF is having a related event next Tuesday in San Francisco. I'm planning on being there.

EFF Celebrates Innovation at BayFF!
Check Out the Latest Gadgets and Hang Out with EFF at Our February BayFF

WHEN
Tuesday, February 22nd, 2005
7:00 p.m. to 9:30 p.m.

WHAT
Inventive Gizmos - A Celebration of Innovation

Innovation. We love it.
The upcoming BayFF is a celebration of all the technological wonders we've been able to enjoy thanks to the legal shield provided by the 1984 Sony Betamax ruling. Come check out cool new gizmos from local tech companies Elgato, Slim Devices, and Sling Media. EFF attorneys and tech gurus will talk about how you can help protect the pro-innovation environment that allows gadgets like these to flourish.

WHO
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Elgato - elgato.com
Slim Devices - slimdevices.com
Slingmedia - slingmedia.com

WHERE
111 Minna Gallery
111 Minna Street
San Francisco, CA
94105
415.974.1719
(map)

This event is free and open to the general public. You must be 21+. Refreshments will be served.

Newsflash, dude.

It's not a "small minority of TiVo owners" - it's almost everybody who has a DVR, whether it is a TiVo or not.

I've talked to dozens of people who don't use TiVos but refer to their DVR as a TiVo anyway, and who refer to "TiVoing" TV shows.

TiVo brand name strength is a reality, and it is something companies will pay for, if TiVo gets acquired.


"All DVR owners" is still a tiny fraction of the market that Apple would hope to capture. If Apple announced a DVR product, it would attract the attention of people who never even heard of a DVR and who have at best only a vague notion of what a "TiVo" is. This is not to deny TiVo's brand name strength, which would be of considerable value to a company that was not already the world's top brand . As for Apple, if they wanted to buy DVR company (and don't already have a DVR well along in development, which strikes me as more likely), they'd probably be more likely to be interested in somebody like Elgato, makers of EyeTV.

If you have an old macintosh laying around you can couple it with and Elgato EyeTV system. It may be a more than you are looking for though and, as I said, requires a macintosh to work with it. It uses a free online program guide as well as scheduled recordings. It works for me. Alternately you could build your own with a cheap PC, and MythTV.