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My Sony Z1 cost £30 more than my iPhone 5 did the previous year (both bought unsubsidised). Even accounting for inflation, it still works out more in real terms.

Based on this true anecdote, let's reverse your statement and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Really,

Iphone 5C = GBP 469
Sony Xperia Z1 = GBP 419

All you've demonstrated is that you overpaid for the Z1.

A high end Android phone is cheaper than a low end Apple device.

*sigh* iOS devices are more expensive to begin with. iOS users obviously have more money to spend than brains. It has nothing to do with the quality of the device, and everything to do with being willing to be gouged.

Fixed (again).

My Sony Z1 cost £30 more than my iPhone 5 did the previous year (both bought unsubsidised). Even accounting for inflation, it still works out more in real terms.

Based on this true anecdote, let's reverse your statement and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Really,

Iphone 5C = GBP 469
Sony Xperia Z1 = GBP 419

All you've demonstrated is that you overpaid for the Z1.

A high end Android phone is cheaper than a low end Apple device.

*sigh* iOS devices are more expensive to begin with. iOS users obviously have more money to spend than brains. It has nothing to do with the quality of the device, and everything to do with being willing to be gouged.

Fixed (again).

That's clear enough.

No, that's just the definition of a design patent.

And what gave you the idea that simply slapping "Pepsi" on a Coke bottle would make it not infringing?

What an idiotic strawman comment, i never said or implied anything of the sort.
Are the differences between the 2 devices pictured here not immediately obvious to you? Or here? Or here?

Taking a quick look at this makes me realise just how insanely similar they are, and just how much apple has a point.

But then you take a quick look at this or this or this and then you realise just how different they are. Yes it's possible to make them look very similar if you set up the screen just right and look at it from the right angle but obviously you can see why Samsung opposes this litigation.

and think that you can invalidate it by pointing out that tablets are not new, or that other things have round corners.

The reason for that is that Apple is cherry picking similarities and ignoring key differences, like this or this or this, that last one even Apple so obvious that they went to the trouble of photoshopping it to make them the same size and aspect ratio.
I just think it's a waste of time, no one who wants an Apple iPad is going to buy a Samsung Galaxy Tab just because they look similar from a certain angle, if they were infringing on the trademark then that is a different story though.

I'm logged in as UID 666, just like that other guy. I just linked to his comment not to bother with copy-pasting all the links from there.

What this clearly shows is a bunch of differences of "two otherwise identical products", even excluding the logo. Pics in profile show them especially clearly, like this one, though frontal pics with clearly differing shapes also add to that. So, what else should we specifically exclude from comparison - placement of connectors/buttons/camera, aspect ratio, backside profile - to make them otherwise identical? Or, rather, what defining identical characteristics shall we include?

For that you should... look at the law. As I stated originally.

Someone else made the case that Apple's own design differs significantly from their original filed design patent, enough that it's as different to the design patent as Samsung's device is, and thus it gives Samsung a route to appeal.

The definitions and wording of just how different a device needs to be is all laid out. It's then up to a judge to decide. I personally believe Apple has a case (DISCLAIMER: in only this lawsuit covering the design patent) given that the Tab was very similar to the iPad, right down to the trade dress and things like the power supply. Samsung has since changed both of those ancillary things (not in response to the suit), so I think they knew it too.

If you're logged in, you should post under your ID, otherwise you are demonstrating that you can't stand behind your own arguments - it only makes my case stronger, which is probably not what you want to do. It also means that we can't tell exactly what you've posted. I assume you're shilling for CleanPC.com right? (hey, if I can get a constant barrage of accusations over my integrity, then surely the guy posting as AC is fair game).

I'm logged in as UID 666, just like that other guy. I just linked to his comment not to bother with copy-pasting all the links from there.

What this clearly shows is a bunch of differences of "two otherwise identical products", even excluding the logo. Pics in profile show them especially clearly, like this one, though frontal pics with clearly differing shapes also add to that. So, what else should we specifically exclude from comparison - placement of connectors/buttons/camera, aspect ratio, backside profile - to make them otherwise identical? Or, rather, what defining identical characteristics shall we include?

They created a device that looks ridiculously like an iPad

Yeah it sure does, if you ignore the back, the sides, the lack of button on the front, the big words SAMSUNG, the different size, the different aspect ratio...but holy shit it has a black bezel and rounded corners!
I can't tell them apart.

They created a device that looks ridiculously like an iPad

Yeah it sure does, if you ignore the back, the sides, the lack of button on the front, the big words SAMSUNG, the different size, the different aspect ratio...but holy shit it has a black bezel and rounded corners!
I can't tell them apart.

Yes, exactly, we all know it's ok for Apple because they had 9 less buttons on the bottom whereas Samsung does not so, by the law of button count infringement, that means Apple doesn't infringe on the 2001 device but Samsung infringes on Apple's device.

The many buttons (or lack thereof) are an immediately-evident detail that shows we're not looking at a genuine iPad in 2001. When I searched on Google (for "2001 ipad" I think) to eventually find that page, I noticed small dots at the bottom of the 2001 tablet. That difference was evident in a thumbnail of a scene shot from a perspective of being 3 meters high overhead. That's a very obvious detail, and it contributes greatly to having an overall different appearance.

Apple has a symmetric bezel as opposed to an asymmetric bezel and because of the well-known bezel symmetry vs beveled edge inequality

The bezel is the frame around the screen. On the 2001 device, there's a thin bezel going around three sides of the screen, and a large bezel at the bottom to hold the buttons. The iPad has a roughly half-inch bezel around all four sides. The Galaxy Tab has a roughly half-inch bezel around all four sides.

it means that technically Apple's bezel is different to that of the device show[n] in 2001

Yes, exactly. Apple's bezel is different, because it's not the same.

but the beveled edges (show[n] here) are exactly identical.

Not exactly identical, but that's not really an issue. The bevel (meaning the smoothing of the edge, which is unrelated to the bezel being the frame around the screen) is a subtle enough detail that even a major change (like having no bevel at all) wouldn't do much to distinguish a Galaxy Tab from an iPad. At a glance, they look the same. Also note that the bevel can only really be seen in profile...

And lastly with the profile, we come to another law of inequality regarding profile and aspect ratio, profiles differ but 4:3 is exactly equal to 16:9 and thus the latter does not constitute a difference.

That's not what profile means. It means "outline as seen from the side", and again the 2001 design is significantly different from the iPad. Not only do the buttons appear to be raised from the surface, but the bezel with the buttons looks slanted upwards at the bottom. When viewed from the side, the 2001 tablet would have a distinctly different appearance from the iPad. The Galaxy Tab appears to be the same thickness as the iPad, with the same perfectly-flat design.

Also sorry Samsung but the fact that your corner radius is different won't save you either, we can come up with a way to oppose that one if you choose to use it as a defense so don't bother.

That's another ridiculously subtle difference that would only be apparent in a side-by-side comparison.

All together, there are enough similarities in the design and few enough differences that from a distance, it's unreasonable to expect people to see the difference between an iPad and a Galaxy Tab. Conversely, there are enough differences that an iPad is clearly not copying any design from 2001. No, this is not an absolute definition, and there are no fixed rules on what makes something different enough to not infringe on a trademark.

For a simple test of whether something is likely to infringe on another product's design, try this test: Write down a verbose description of the design, using as few actual measurements as possible. For the iPad, this would be something like "A rectangular platform with a glossy front surface. The front has a touch screen surrounded by a bezel roughly half an inch wide. There is a single concave button on a short side of the bezel with a picture of a ho

You mean the one with an asymmetric bezel, 10 buttons, and a completely different profile?

Yes, exactly, we all know it's ok for Apple because they had 9 less buttons on the bottom whereas Samsung does not so, by the law of button count infringement, that means Apple doesn't infringe on the 2001 device but Samsung infringes on Apple's device.

Apple has a symmetric bezel as opposed to an asymmetric bezel and because of the well-known bezel symmetry vs beveled edge inequality it means that technically Apple's bezel is different to that of the device show in 2001 but the beveled edges (show here) are exactly identical.

And lastly with the profile, we come to another law of inequality regarding profile and aspect ratio, profiles differ but 4:3 is exactly equal to 16:9 and thus the latter does not constitute a difference.

Also sorry Samsung but the fact that your corner radius is different won't save you either, we can come up with a way to oppose that one if you choose to use it as a defense so don't bother.

"That's why they won't let you buy a data-capable phone without the data service."

http://expansys.com/ does. If you've got loads of money: iPhones/iPads, Android, Palm, Blackberry, Nokia etc.

Oh, wait, you mean in the US where you've got weird old network technologies (CDMA), lack of effective regulation and bizarre pricing (pay to get a text message? Who thought that up?!)

In most EU countries you can buy unlocked phones, and if you've got a phone on a contract, once the contract's minimum term is up, you can call the operator to get it unlocked or you can get your phone unlocked in the many quasi-legal unlocking shops. This is so widespread that loads of networks (all in the UK, for instance) offer SIM-only contracts.

(Personally, I have an unlocked Sony-Ericsson phone I won in a hacking contest. And I use a MiFi for data so I can use my laptop, iPod touch and various other gadgets. Both are pay as you go: 1Gb of data for £10, 3Gb for £15, 7Gb for £25 - lasts for 30 days.)

I post this only because so many "oh my, isn't mobile so fucked up" rants are tied specifically to US-specific things.

Pray tell, where are the iPhones that cost 2.5x as much as these Android phones sold?

Try looking at the unsubsidised market. These prices are from the UK and before you rabbit on about tax, being from outside the EU, we dont pay VAT (tax).

Iphone 3GS 8GB GBP 425/US$670

Iphone 4 16GB GBP 698/US$1095

HTC Desire GBP 340/US$535

Samsung Galaxy S GBP 375/US$590

Brand new HTC Desire HD GBP 430/US$675

So do you see that an Iphone that is over a year old is competing with the latest Android releases. For phones that are barely older then the latest Iphone you're looking at almost half the price.

I love the tears of fanboys in the morning, comparing subsidised phones to subsidised phones is pointless as carriers will just try to bilk as much money out of you as possible without you noticing.

Pray tell, where are the iPhones that cost 2.5x as much as these Android phones sold?

Try looking at the unsubsidised market. These prices are from the UK and before you rabbit on about tax, being from outside the EU, we dont pay VAT (tax).

Iphone 3GS 8GB GBP 425/US$670

Iphone 4 16GB GBP 698/US$1095

HTC Desire GBP 340/US$535

Samsung Galaxy S GBP 375/US$590

Brand new HTC Desire HD GBP 430/US$675

So do you see that an Iphone that is over a year old is competing with the latest Android releases. For phones that are barely older then the latest Iphone you're looking at almost half the price.

I love the tears of fanboys in the morning, comparing subsidised phones to subsidised phones is pointless as carriers will just try to bilk as much money out of you as possible without you noticing.

Pray tell, where are the iPhones that cost 2.5x as much as these Android phones sold?

Try looking at the unsubsidised market. These prices are from the UK and before you rabbit on about tax, being from outside the EU, we dont pay VAT (tax).

Iphone 3GS 8GB GBP 425/US$670

Iphone 4 16GB GBP 698/US$1095

HTC Desire GBP 340/US$535

Samsung Galaxy S GBP 375/US$590

Brand new HTC Desire HD GBP 430/US$675

So do you see that an Iphone that is over a year old is competing with the latest Android releases. For phones that are barely older then the latest Iphone you're looking at almost half the price.

I love the tears of fanboys in the morning, comparing subsidised phones to subsidised phones is pointless as carriers will just try to bilk as much money out of you as possible without you noticing.

Pray tell, where are the iPhones that cost 2.5x as much as these Android phones sold?

Try looking at the unsubsidised market. These prices are from the UK and before you rabbit on about tax, being from outside the EU, we dont pay VAT (tax).

Iphone 3GS 8GB GBP 425/US$670

Iphone 4 16GB GBP 698/US$1095

HTC Desire GBP 340/US$535

Samsung Galaxy S GBP 375/US$590

Brand new HTC Desire HD GBP 430/US$675

So do you see that an Iphone that is over a year old is competing with the latest Android releases. For phones that are barely older then the latest Iphone you're looking at almost half the price.

I love the tears of fanboys in the morning, comparing subsidised phones to subsidised phones is pointless as carriers will just try to bilk as much money out of you as possible without you noticing.

Pray tell, where are the iPhones that cost 2.5x as much as these Android phones sold?

Try looking at the unsubsidised market. These prices are from the UK and before you rabbit on about tax, being from outside the EU, we dont pay VAT (tax).

Iphone 3GS 8GB GBP 425/US$670

Iphone 4 16GB GBP 698/US$1095

HTC Desire GBP 340/US$535

Samsung Galaxy S GBP 375/US$590

Brand new HTC Desire HD GBP 430/US$675

So do you see that an Iphone that is over a year old is competing with the latest Android releases. For phones that are barely older then the latest Iphone you're looking at almost half the price.

I love the tears of fanboys in the morning, comparing subsidised phones to subsidised phones is pointless as carriers will just try to bilk as much money out of you as possible without you noticing.

Certainly as a leftie I've never once had a problem or felt disadvantaged when using any kind of computing device, ever...

Apparently you've never tried to use one of these...
http://www.ink2print.com/gbu0-prodshow/ergo_500.html
or these...
http://www.expansys.com/zoompic.aspx?i=160630
or these...
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=224053
or these...
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/mice-pointers/mice/devices/5845
or these...
http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900/categoryId.35208800

Try using any of those left-handed ranges from impossible to an exercise in discomfort and frustration. The two keypads are completely unusable. The joystick is uncomfortable, and most of the buttons are awkward to reach. The mice are also uncomfortable and all the 'thumb' buttons are effectively impossible to use well.

There are some ok left-handed friendly options available...
I use a Fang keypad, which is ambidextrous
http://www.amazon.ca/ZGP-1000-Fang-USB-Gamepad-Keypad/dp/B000FRW8KS

Cheap ambi-mice are plentiful, but getting a good gaming/laser mouse is hard. Ambidextrous options are pretty limited and have fewer features, and ergo-left are non-existent. I enjoyed my ambidextrous razer copperhead, but after it died I haven't found a good replacement yet. I see razer has a left-handed ergo deathadder...that must be fairly new... I'll definitely be looking into it.

As for joysticks... Saitek used to make a pretty decent ambi/convertible flightstick... but I'm currently looking for a new stick, and can't find anything that looks decent right now. Flightsims are out of fashion for the last decade and there isn't much available that isn't either super cheap and basic or super ergo-right-only.

not like Android phones are any cheaper.

Really,

Motorola Milestone, new and unlocked GBP 349
HTC Desire, new and unlocked GBP 399
Apple Iphone 3G, 16GB, refurbished and locked to O2 BP 459

A New 3GS is GBP 574 for the 16 GB model. Remember that those of us outside the EU do not pay VAT so take about 17% off the prices.

by the time you buy a SD card it's more than an iphone

In Australia a class 6, 16 GB MircoSD card is A$45 (approx GBP 27-30). So here's your reminder, a new Desire with 16 GB is cheaper then an old Iphone 3G by A$220 and US$190.

not like Android phones are any cheaper.

Really,

Motorola Milestone, new and unlocked GBP 349
HTC Desire, new and unlocked GBP 399
Apple Iphone 3G, 16GB, refurbished and locked to O2 BP 459

A New 3GS is GBP 574 for the 16 GB model. Remember that those of us outside the EU do not pay VAT so take about 17% off the prices.

by the time you buy a SD card it's more than an iphone

In Australia a class 6, 16 GB MircoSD card is A$45 (approx GBP 27-30). So here's your reminder, a new Desire with 16 GB is cheaper then an old Iphone 3G by A$220 and US$190.

not like Android phones are any cheaper.

Really,

Motorola Milestone, new and unlocked GBP 349
HTC Desire, new and unlocked GBP 399
Apple Iphone 3G, 16GB, refurbished and locked to O2 BP 459

A New 3GS is GBP 574 for the 16 GB model. Remember that those of us outside the EU do not pay VAT so take about 17% off the prices.

by the time you buy a SD card it's more than an iphone

In Australia a class 6, 16 GB MircoSD card is A$45 (approx GBP 27-30). So here's your reminder, a new Desire with 16 GB is cheaper then an old Iphone 3G by A$220 and US$190.

Yeah, the network shops aren't great for this. Try http://www.expansys.com/ - they carry it for £354. I'd be very surprised if they didn't ship internationally, too. Great company, no affiliation etc

Just like here in Australia where Vodafone have been "planning" to release this phone since it was frigging announced. I got sick of waiting so I checked out google's online store. "This product is not available in your location". Well great. Thanks a lot. Spent my money on beer instead.

Expansys AU - A$860
Expansys UK - GBP 480 (A$790)

I bought the Milestone instead.

Heck Google does almost no advertising just sells the phone in three countries and then everyone expects that the phone sells like hotcakes. The entire EU except Britain for instance cannot get it the same goes for Asia and the rest of the world is left out as well.

Are you referring to the Nexus One or Android in general.

In either case you are wrong, if the UK can get the N1 under EU trade laws anyone in Europe can get The N1. In fact if it's being sold in the UK and it is, anyone in the world apart from a few special nations like Iran and North Korea can buy it if they have the money.

The Nexus One in Hong Kong.
The Nexus One in The United Kingdom.
The Nexus One in Australia.

If I can buy it from HK, I can get it anywhere in Asia, if I can buy it from the UK I can get it anywhere in Europe. The whole idea behind the N1 is that we can finally become separated from this damned telco control over handsets and software (yet Vodafone are in negotiations with Google to release worldwide).

BTW, there are more Android handset then the N1, take a look around the Expansys and MobiCity web sites, also try clove but they aren't offering the N1 just yet. I bought my Motorola Milestone from Expansys UK (non EU residents don't pay VAT, about 70 Pounds less for me) so they do deliver internationally.

Then if you look at iPhone OS, that has been highly, highly optimized. An iPhone 3GS with a 600MHz CPU outperforms a Nexus One with a 1000MHz CPU. The iPhone 3G with a 400MHz CPU outperforms a Palm Pre with 600MHz CPU

Citation needed? I think you'll find that Iphone only appears to outperform Android because Android is doing a lot more then the Iphone. Further more many things that work on Android do not work on Iphone, slashdot for instance works fine on my HTC Dream or newer Motorola Milestone with the standard browser, it works even better with Dolphin browser.

This cannot be a fair comparison until the Iphone can do everything that Android phones can, unless you want to compare functionality where Iphone is an epic failure.

Those optimizations are part of the reason why Apple is currently undercutting both Android and Palm on price,

Now I can tell you're full of it. All prices are incl of local taxes, and UK VAT does not apply outside the EU for those in Australia, Canada and the US.

UK Expansys
Motorola Milestone GBP 379
Nexus 1 GBP 599
Iphone 32 GB GBP 799

AU Mobicity
Motorola Milestone A$659
Nexus 1 A$849
Iphone 16 GB A$959

The cheapest Iphone 3GS available is A$100 more expensive then the newer Motorola Milestone (droid for the Yanks) and Google Nexus One. Not to mention that both the Milestone and Nexus One can do more as well as lack the restrictions of the Iphone. But then again I suspect you were merely looking to confirm your quite obvious bias rather then do an accurate comparison.

Apple's operating systems are not very well optimised, not even as much as Windows operating systems, Apple's OS pretend to have optimisation by providing the OS with more hardware then it needs and limiting functionality to prevent any perceived loss of speed. Most people using a Mac or Iphone rarely use the full power of the hardware, ergo an un-optimised OS goes unnoticed by the user. Here is the core of the design (in an engineering perspective) a design does not have to work well, it just has to work. The vast majority of people will ignore tiny flaws if they can get the task done, OTOH if a computer doesn't do the task the user will get annoyed no matter how pretty the interface.

As a good developer friend of mine likes to say, "If given the choice, a user will press the 'I just want it to work today' button". OSX provides this very shiny button but only in a few select places, Windows provides this not so shiny button almost everywhere. This is why Windows is still the number one OS on the planet.

Then if you look at iPhone OS, that has been highly, highly optimized. An iPhone 3GS with a 600MHz CPU outperforms a Nexus One with a 1000MHz CPU. The iPhone 3G with a 400MHz CPU outperforms a Palm Pre with 600MHz CPU

Citation needed? I think you'll find that Iphone only appears to outperform Android because Android is doing a lot more then the Iphone. Further more many things that work on Android do not work on Iphone, slashdot for instance works fine on my HTC Dream or newer Motorola Milestone with the standard browser, it works even better with Dolphin browser.

This cannot be a fair comparison until the Iphone can do everything that Android phones can, unless you want to compare functionality where Iphone is an epic failure.

Those optimizations are part of the reason why Apple is currently undercutting both Android and Palm on price,

Now I can tell you're full of it. All prices are incl of local taxes, and UK VAT does not apply outside the EU for those in Australia, Canada and the US.

UK Expansys
Motorola Milestone GBP 379
Nexus 1 GBP 599
Iphone 32 GB GBP 799

AU Mobicity
Motorola Milestone A$659
Nexus 1 A$849
Iphone 16 GB A$959

The cheapest Iphone 3GS available is A$100 more expensive then the newer Motorola Milestone (droid for the Yanks) and Google Nexus One. Not to mention that both the Milestone and Nexus One can do more as well as lack the restrictions of the Iphone. But then again I suspect you were merely looking to confirm your quite obvious bias rather then do an accurate comparison.

Apple's operating systems are not very well optimised, not even as much as Windows operating systems, Apple's OS pretend to have optimisation by providing the OS with more hardware then it needs and limiting functionality to prevent any perceived loss of speed. Most people using a Mac or Iphone rarely use the full power of the hardware, ergo an un-optimised OS goes unnoticed by the user. Here is the core of the design (in an engineering perspective) a design does not have to work well, it just has to work. The vast majority of people will ignore tiny flaws if they can get the task done, OTOH if a computer doesn't do the task the user will get annoyed no matter how pretty the interface.

As a good developer friend of mine likes to say, "If given the choice, a user will press the 'I just want it to work today' button". OSX provides this very shiny button but only in a few select places, Windows provides this not so shiny button almost everywhere. This is why Windows is still the number one OS on the planet.

Then if you look at iPhone OS, that has been highly, highly optimized. An iPhone 3GS with a 600MHz CPU outperforms a Nexus One with a 1000MHz CPU. The iPhone 3G with a 400MHz CPU outperforms a Palm Pre with 600MHz CPU

Citation needed? I think you'll find that Iphone only appears to outperform Android because Android is doing a lot more then the Iphone. Further more many things that work on Android do not work on Iphone, slashdot for instance works fine on my HTC Dream or newer Motorola Milestone with the standard browser, it works even better with Dolphin browser.

This cannot be a fair comparison until the Iphone can do everything that Android phones can, unless you want to compare functionality where Iphone is an epic failure.

Those optimizations are part of the reason why Apple is currently undercutting both Android and Palm on price,

Now I can tell you're full of it. All prices are incl of local taxes, and UK VAT does not apply outside the EU for those in Australia, Canada and the US.

UK Expansys
Motorola Milestone GBP 379
Nexus 1 GBP 599
Iphone 32 GB GBP 799

AU Mobicity
Motorola Milestone A$659
Nexus 1 A$849
Iphone 16 GB A$959

The cheapest Iphone 3GS available is A$100 more expensive then the newer Motorola Milestone (droid for the Yanks) and Google Nexus One. Not to mention that both the Milestone and Nexus One can do more as well as lack the restrictions of the Iphone. But then again I suspect you were merely looking to confirm your quite obvious bias rather then do an accurate comparison.

Apple's operating systems are not very well optimised, not even as much as Windows operating systems, Apple's OS pretend to have optimisation by providing the OS with more hardware then it needs and limiting functionality to prevent any perceived loss of speed. Most people using a Mac or Iphone rarely use the full power of the hardware, ergo an un-optimised OS goes unnoticed by the user. Here is the core of the design (in an engineering perspective) a design does not have to work well, it just has to work. The vast majority of people will ignore tiny flaws if they can get the task done, OTOH if a computer doesn't do the task the user will get annoyed no matter how pretty the interface.

As a good developer friend of mine likes to say, "If given the choice, a user will press the 'I just want it to work today' button". OSX provides this very shiny button but only in a few select places, Windows provides this not so shiny button almost everywhere. This is why Windows is still the number one OS on the planet.

In the EU, you can. Lots of high-street cellphone shops carry all the networks. They also sell sim-free, unlocked (and therefore unsubsidised, full price) handsets, and SIM-only contracts/pay as you go, as well as the usual bundles. Or you can get a sim-free phone from eBay or http://www.expansys.com/ and stick any SIM in it...

Try Expansys and weep.
http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=183742

You are cheating and that is not comparing the same thing. It is not legal to break your contract by jailbreaking and unlocking your phone.

I am talking about a totally carrier free unlocked phone. No contract, no subsidies. And in that case Apple is reaming your ass totally.

So, I am afraid that you are the one who is totally wrong and should check your facts.

If you're in Britain, you can get a new n810 for about that much.

http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=158518&partner=gadgetoid

Expansys in the UK is doing pre-orders for the MSI wind; from what I can see the linux version is identical to the windows xp home one in hardware spec (same ram, HD, 3 cell battery, BT included) but £30 cheaper.

The devil's in the details. This map app doesn't look too hot. And lacking a touchscreen (and virtual keyboard) my guess is it'll take a LONG time to do any amount of text entry with less than 20 buttons. Predictive text doesn't help much when it comes to names, email addresses, URLs, city names, etc.

But no mind, you just go on being a raving, frothing at the mouth Nokia fanboy, oblivious to what most people in the world actually want. (Note the proper use of 'oblivious.') We'll compare sales numbers in a year. The parent was specifically talking about "iPhone killers," and if the iPod has shown us anything, it is that feature counts alone don't sell products.

Java? Are you freaking kidding me?

I'm sure it's a great phone. I just wanted to bring you down to Earth, same as you wanted to bring down the parent.

The HTC Touch - nice interface, small form factor. Okay, so it's not made by Mr Jobs and Co, but it's a damn nice piece of kit. Works with corporate email (read Exchange), has a decent camera, no network lock-in, and it's cheaper.

Yes, the Apple fanboys will say it's Microsoft-based, but the fact is; it's a damn fine piece of kit - oh yeah, and you can write proper software apps for it using .NET, not some poxy Javascript web-based thing...

That would be great example except http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=145613 and http://www.laptopshop.co.uk/acer-travelmate_c213tm i_vista-tablet_pc-4-t2.htm kind of show that Vista has made it onto Tablets. My biggest issue with Tablets is the hardware & price can't compete with laptops. As for WinFS wasn't some form of that originally planned for windows 95? Nice joke but you kind of shot yourself in the foot

Your in the UK? Pop into your local O2 store and look at this:

https://shop.o2.co.uk/phone/specification/O2/Xda_O rbit_-_Sat_Nav

Its probably going to be much cheaper than the iPhone, its small it looks damm good (seriously the photo doesn't do it justice) The UI is WM5 which is 1 hand operable and while websites don't always render properly everything does render, for me the on screen keyboard is a pain (tis why I have a XDA Mini S (HTC Wizard)) but it does have GPS and comes with UK sat nav maps, WiFi, Windows Media Player 10 on it is very easy to use (the on screen buttons are big enough to be hit with your thumb and 90% can be done through the physical buttons) you can sync it a few ways although I prefer to use WMP11 for my own Wizard. At this point I think WMP11 is substanially better than Itunes But then again I've hated Itunes since Version 4. When you couple it with one of these:

http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=127830

Your phone can suddenly store 600 tracks (I currently have 593 with 84MB to spare with them encoded to 128Kbps) oh did I mention its 3G and has a radio built into it? Sure thats not the iPhones 4GB or 8GB but its still pretty good. If you hate that what about:

http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/index.cfm?go=paymonthly .productdetails&pid=445
https://shop.o2.co.uk/phone/Nokia/N95
Anouther extremely nice phone, while not that cheap its a great phone and worth looking into, if you really can't find anything better you haven't been looking, I mean if high memory is what your after Nokia had relased the N90 which was designed to be a music player with a 8GB memory the carriers dropped it because no one bought it but I'm sure its on ebay.

Is they don't have to. According to this, it appears that iPhone will simply be sold SIM free, which is great.

Will be interesting to see how much it costs in the UK and if we are able to take advantage of the $/£ 2:1 exchange rate, meaning we will be looking in the region of only £300 for an iPhone, which would make it attractive to the 'looking for a new iPod' crowd, however I suspect a SIM free iPhone will cost at least double that with resellers offering their own tariff bundles. The lack of third party apps and 3G of course making it nothing more than an expensive toy for the serious Smartphone user crowd who are used to being able to install third party apps that do not require a data connection to work (and considering the extortionate price of some data plans here and lack of EDGE then just as well). I can see T-Mobile with their 'web and walk' package becoming very popular with people who simply want an iPod that does email over GSM.

Personally I'll consider one as my next iPod once they up the storage and /or make it 3G (as perhaps we will see a move to streaming music live from the net and cheaper data by then). If they allow third party apps then I'll have one for sure.

At the risk of stating the obvious, "branding" = "phone service provider has customised the phone". this can range from a simple logo silkscreened on the casing, to a fairly extensive customisation of menus, adding logos to the phone's OS, and/or removing certain features (such as the ability to play MP3 ringtones, transfer files via bluetooth, etc).
All handset manufacturers make "unbranded", vanilla handsets. You can buy them - they're just not cheap or common as the market would prefer to buy branded, discounted handsets.
In the UK you can get unbranded phones without a contract from lots of sources such as http://www.expansys.com/ - but check the non-discounted prices versus what you'll see in the highstreet.
There's a thriving backstreet industry in debranding phones in the UK - for Windows Mobile devices there are communities that provide "clean" ROMs that are faster, have better GSM performance and add features - see http://www.xda-developers.com/ for details.
Oh, and for those pesky silkscreened operator logos on the casing, rubbing it with a sugarcube will remove them without scratching the phone - mask off holes in the casing first with sticky tape!

The only people who pay full price for unlocked phones are early adopters and geeks. Others, like me, buy the phones the early adopters are bored of via ebay, and unlock them ourselves.
I've just got myself a nice HTC Wizard for 120UKP this way, which I've unlocked and debranded, and sped up by around 40% using a "Mr Clean" ROM via http://www.xda-developers.com/.

At a forum for tomtom help at http://www.expansys.com/ft.aspx?i=112333&thread=27 96, a user asks,

this is my first post, when trying to download the map of western europe v6.6 direct from TomTom Home site to my PC the following message appears '' an error occurred while dowloading this file: read error., followed by the options ''continue'' or ''cancel.

Can anyone help me with this problem?

His first reply:

Disable your firewall and anti virus and see if that helps.

Silly windows users.

I have a 5 MP camera phone as I write this. Things are starting to get better in the phone area, so much that I guess 5 - 10 years later, we might see the promised ubiquitous all in one device. It isn't perfect today, but for non-professional use, a camera phone is more than what the majority requires.

> Who is going to pay for an Internet connection on a really long flight when their laptop
> battery can't carry a charge long enough to use it all the way?

Modern long/mediaum haul aircraft have personal power outlets on each seat into which you can plug special power adapters/inverters. I only had a problem once, and that was easily solved by asking the stewardess to turn the power on....

The biggest issue with these kind of internet connections is the price, which would certainly stop me from using it unless the company is willing to foot the bill (Anyway, I'd rather be watching a movie or sleeping than working).

Steve.

"Pretec 12GB Compact Flash Card" @ http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=123205

A steal at £4,959.95.

The phone is targeted for emerging markets, where people don't like to tie themselves into monthly contracts, and with little value proposition presents little interest to US wireless operators.

The wireless operators won't tell you this - for obvious reasons - but you're absolutely NOT required to purchase your phone from them. The bottom line is that you can aquire an unlocked, factory-direct phone from places like eXpansys. After that, simply call the carrier to do an ESN swap or in the case of GSM place the SIM in the new phone.

The trick, of course, is knowing the technology your carrier supports. I don't expect that to be an issue for this crowd.

Where have you been hiding? There is a wide range of mobile phones that run the latest versions of WinCE: Windows Mobile for Smartphones or Windows Mobile for PocketPC Phone Edition. Look at what's on offer at somewhere like Expansys.

Have you ever heard of assumptions? AAC being a open format can be implemented by other music players very easily, I'm not that passioned by the subject so I don't know for sure if there are or not music players that play AAC. HOWEVER the problem is clear when you talk about songs that you bought (and that's why my assumption) -- in which case Apple AAC is not better than WMA.

Actually.... just a quick look and I've found a music player that plays AAC
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=SOUNDBRID GE_M2000&partner=register

So, I guess the issue is not if you can play AAC on other players -- you can, I'm sure there are other players beside the one that I've found in 10 seconds, the issue is clearly about playing non-free AAC formats. I clearly don't support the idea that free AAC is just like WMA, what I'm saying is that AAC songs bought from iTunes are just as useless as WMA songs -- even worse actually since you can play WMA on more players than bought AAC which play only on iPod (and prepare to be surprised: there are people that don't like iPods or there are people that want something cheaper or different, or people that listen to radio and so on).

We used the Socket low power CF WiFi cards and got pretty good battery life with a SL5000D and a bunch of C700s that had the fantastic 640x480 crystal clear screen.

Similar to this, cant remeber the exact model...:
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=108979&pa rtner=register

They are sold rebadged under another brand too (symbol i think).

I use Expansys (US site)- while their prices aren't quite as keen as ebuyer (UK only I think) they have a great range, an easy-to-navigate site, loads of product compatability information, and a discussion forum for every product. I've been buying from them since they opened under the name of 21Store in 1997.

I use Expansys (US site)- while their prices aren't quite as keen as ebuyer (UK only I think) they have a great range, an easy-to-navigate site, loads of product compatability information, and a discussion forum for every product. I've been buying from them since they opened under the name of 21Store in 1997.

A quick Google reveals this discontinued product and this software. If you're going to get free calls you may as well be able to sit in an armchair.