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These dual core things are less than I paid for my PII 400 years back. A X2 3800+ is $150, a X2 5000+ CPU is $290 today in lots of 1. I spend almost the same for a video card.... amazing cheap for what you get these days.

Actually, from what I can tell, it still isn't available.

It's not on newegg. Pricegrabber only lists it at one place, and they say it comes June 30.

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant. mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=120987&AF FIL=pricewatch&NR=1

It appears AMD preannounced the FX-62, at least in terms of availablity to other than 1st-tier vendors.

If FX-62 really ships June 30th, that'd only be 1 week ahead of Conroe, thus making your "ask AMD for next year's cores" comment extra stupid.

AMD's biggest efforts right now in making maximum hay from their AM2 releases before Intel makes their announcements, even to the point apparently of preannouncing their chips. And all this despite the approximately 0% speedup the AM2 chips have given clock-per-clock.

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant. mv
http://www.ibexpc.com/linuxsystems.html
http://gnupc.com/
http://www.sunsetsystems.com/
http://h10018.www1.hp.com/wwsolutions/linux/produc ts/clients/workstationcert.html

"You must be on crack."
Must be. After all, I'm responding to your nut job comment.

"The BIOS on all Dell systems made in the past 4-5 years, maybe longer, can now be updated from Linux. You don't even need to reboot into DOS. Did others put that kind of effort in supporting customers?"
I have news for you. HP has been doing it for few years. I believe IBM as well. Matter of fact, every Linux embedded device manufactures has been.

"That crack must be really good."
Must be. Your rampant ignorance is starting to make me dazed.

"Dell has in my opinion been doing a decent job, given the constraints."
Huh? What constratins are you talking about? Oh you mean, like outsource call centers to India? If Dell doesn't want to support Linux, that's fine. Good for them. But if Dell is going to support Linux, at least do a half way decent job of doing it. It has been less than half ass device support and inadaquate engineers filling up Dell Linux department since 2001. For instance, getting Dell's onboard SATA chipset with kernel 2.4.x was pulling teeth. I was fraustrated up to my eye balls with their engineering staffs and ended up emailing the motherboard manufacture for support which emailed me within 10 minutes with module tarball attachment.

"Everything in my 600m is supported."
I'm happy for you. I really am.

"On my PowerEdge running Fedora, I can even tell which DIMM bank has been causing parity errors."
Yeah, that's great. So can you with memtest86+. http://www.memtest86.com/ I think, it's been around for several years now. It seems, you get amuzed a lot. Install memtest86 rpm package from Fedora distro CD and run memtest-setup from Fedora and grub will give you an option to boot you right into memtest86+.

"Their engineers have been more helpful than they were required to."
Really? Did they fix your car or something? Because they are supposed to resolve issues with every items they sell.

Alright, I don't mean to bash Dell fanboys out there, but this bs has to stop. Having low expectation from vendors and manufactures for supporting Linux makes you applaude for what they are "supposed" to do, then go right ahead. Just don't bitch about same type of support for Windows installed systems.

Or, you could just buy the 6800GS for $229 and save $100 to use toward your next GPU upgrade, which I think is smarter.

The difference is no longer an order of magnitude or two even for the SMP boxes that you are talking about. Googling a bit, I have found these reasonably priced Opteron boxes. These are variations of the same opteron v40z boxes that Sun sells. Quad Opteron boxes w/ hot swap power supplies and hot swap hard drives w/ ECC memory for reasonably cheap for the chassis.

I've never seen a terabyte of ram on a single domain but the
very high end sun boxes will allow you to use either 576 or 288 gigs of ram on a single box, so I will use that as the base. The maximum in SMP mode for the opteron boxes you can homebrew is probably one based on the iwill motherboard which supports 64 gigs, which is now grabbing the midrange line of the sun server series.

In fact HP makes the ProLiant DL585 with opteron chips. They will sell you this machine w/ up to 128 gigabytes of ram, redundant roms, redundant power supplies, hot swappable hard drives, ECC memory.

Its not quite at the high end server sun range but the opteron chip and its use in machines built by traditional "big iron" builders is not really an order or magnitude off. Its really about a factor of 5 from the really high end (aka $1m+ sunfire installations).

And as the IWILL MB points out its not even that far away from home brew or at the very least a $100k officebrew given the amount of ram one has to buy.

Also its worth pointing out the processor supports up to a terabyte, the issue is the memory sticks/mb's are not available yet.

And here we are only talking about the SMP/redundancy style computing . For distributed style computing platforms (aka everything on the top 500 super computers), the 10th and 11th fastest computers in the world are Cray machines based on opterons currently running at Sandia National Labs and Oakridge National Labs respectively.

Now perhaps in your world the top 500 super computers are not considered big iron because they are distributed but i'm w/ the joe slashdotter crowd that considers "big iron" to include the top 500 fastest computers in the world.

> Can anybody recommend a vendor?

I personally like http://monarchcomputer.com/ for that.

From the Monarch page

Shipping Weight: 13.00 pounds

Ultra light: 6.8 kg (14 lbs)

I'd like to get hold of that shipping container! Make it a lot of them. I wonder what the shipping weight of the shipping container is ...

This week I had to spec out a replacement server when one of ours disappeared thanks to a delivery company, and I really wanted to get a HP DL145, HP's entry level Opteron server. As it turned out CDW's site said there was a two+ week delay in shipping the servers, whereas I needed one pronto. Given that other OEMs have no problem with supply, I can only guess this may be part of AMD's case against Intel putting undue influence on the OEMs.

Damien

I find myself almost drooling over the upcoming dual core X2 chips.

Not upcoming. They're here and here and here and elsewhere. Yeah, I want one too.

When the Geforce 6800GT came out, it was $500. Now, it's $450.

And that was 6 months time.

Look, if you can't add anything constructive, just shut up. If you're not playing 3d games made in the past 3 years, or you're just surfing the web / writing spreadsheets, you can get by just fine with the "intel extreme graphics" that comes on the motherboard.

Some people play games, and some people want to have good framerates. If you're not one of them, then STFU. Go play zork.

~Wx

How much would a terrabyte of storage have cost you 4 years ago? You would have needed to stack 50 x 20gig drives, plus the cases, controllers, and power supplies, etc. Today? Under a grand, as an off-the-shelf item. Terabyte drives will be in people's boxes by Christmas of next year, if not this year. You can buy 2 TB of storage today for less than what I paid for an 80 meg hd 15 years ago.

Same thing for cpus. You'll have a hard time NOT buying a 64-bit dual-core within a couple of years.

Ram? Faster, cheaper, and able to stuff more in the box each generation. A lot of 5-year-old boxes can't handle more than 512 meg, but today a lot of retail boxes can handle 2 to 4 gig, and you can buy a motherboard that will handle 16 gig here for less than $400.

5 years ago nobody needed 256 meg of ram, or video cards with more than 12 meg. Things change. That $50,000 box will be less than $5,000 in 5 years.

Ch..ch..ch..changes ...

The boss usually likes to buy through Dell, as it is a name he trusts. I haven't minded, as fatwallet has often pointed me to fantastic deals & I could look good by stretching the buck as far as it went.

We recently needed to get non-SMP machines which could address massive amounts of memory. Dell's anti-AMD stance made this exceedingly difficult. Instead, we ordered through Monarch. They are fantastic! The prices are fair--not so cheap as build-your-own & not as cheap as the outrageous Dell deals that sometimes pop up, but very fair. They are also Linux-friendly & have excellent support. The boss was impressed with how far the buck stretched for top-of-the-line workstations (though Dell would be better for entry-level) & we've placed more orders through them.

Re-reading my own glowing review makes it seem a bit over the top, but I really have no other connection to Monarch aside from being an exceedingly happy customer. They're worth a try if you want AMD machines.

I use AMD processors in some of my servers and am evaluating purcahsing a new rack full of hardware for migrating off our current servers (mix of AMD & Intel) that are tower based. Monarch Computers (Linux Journal runs on them) is pretty reasonable but I'm also looking at the Sun offerings.

I like Dell computers reasonably well. However we have decided to go with AMD for multiple reasons. Unfortunately they don't offer what we are looking for and as a result have lost about a $30,000 purchase. Granted 30K is peanuts to them but over time it adds up, one customer here, one customer there.

Their slogan should be "Dell, providing what we say you need, not what you desire." Hell, even their linux offerings are a joke (workstation side).

They don't seem to have much super-big iron, but we're running just about our entire freaking company on a dual-Athlon machine we got from them, with an SATA RAID and 4G of RAM. It's a solid machine. Oh, and they're cheap.

One last note of particular interest to the /. community is that they have pretty good Linux presence -- I think you can buy SuSe or Redhat machines pre-installed, and they have no problems selling a machine with no OS whatsoever.

Of course, when you compare them to a monster like Newegg, they don't have the selection. But if what you want is not particularly unusual, Monarch's a pretty good choice.

Newegg

8anet, also known as AcmeMicro

Racks And Stands

Sybercom

TechOnWeb

Amazon (I buy a lot through Amazon because I get a referal kickback for links from my website which is nice)

AccuPC

There are a lot more I'm sure but I can't think of all of them off the top of my head. Oh, I have bought from Monarch Computers also. There are some companies I won't buy from eve again. The main one that comes to mind is Computer Giants. Those folks tried to scam me once on a Maxtor hard drive that went DOA in the first couple of days of testing. Like all the people posting complaints about them on ResellerRatings they tried to con me into paying return shipping to send the DOA drive back. They also said I'd have to pay one of their people to test the drive and confirm it was DOA. Otherwise I'd have to pay to have it sent back to me. Most people find that the drives are OEM or used and that they are selling them as new retail. Yeah, they're a bunch of asshats. That's why merchant review sites are so essential to buying on the Internet. You can't walk into an Internet store, get in a manager's face, and demand your money back for the lemon they sold you when you buy something online. You have to rely on other people's experiences to weed out the crooks. Fortunately for me Maxtor was exceptionally nice about the whole thing and took care of replacing out DOA drive with a brand new replacement. Nice folks @ Maxtor.

Anyhow, I don't always buy the lowest price on Pricewatch and Froogle. I'll buy from a company I know it's going to try and screw me even if I have to pay a little more. I always check eBay before placing an order too. Take for example one of my recent eBay purchases. I priced rack-mount patch cable organizer (wire routing gear) on Froogle. I found a decent model by APC for $25/each. I just happened to search ebay before buying and low and hehold I found Leviton cable organizers for $4.99/each. Each! Ha! Needless to say I bought 4 instead of 1. They are also built extremely well. Always check eBay before buying something online. You may find it for half the price (or less!).

I buy the bulk of my parts from monarch computer, since they are located in my home state [local pickup for unpatient folks like me] and have pretty good prices, and the rest from newegg. :-)

If you can't afford this Cray, you can at least buy the parts to start putting together your own multi-processor Opteron system:

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/

A friend of mine and I were talking the other night about local Atlanta, GA computer stores, and he mentioned that Monarch Computer is one of the only vendors from whom you can purchase the 4-way Opteron 800 series processors ($1200 a piece -- damn!).

He's been in grad school out of state for a few years and was suprised to learn that Monarch Computer is, in fact, in his hometown backyard. Kind of kewl to walk in a store in your own town and walk out with a $1200 4-way processor.

Until the wife finds out and sends you back to said store with the receipt in hand for a refund. :-\

IronChefMorimoto

P.S. - I don't work for these guys or advocate their store. I just thought it was cool to have such a vendor nearby. Too bad they don't sell Shuttle XPCs.

90nm Athlon64s 939 soon to be available!
90nm A64s seem to draw much less power than 130nm A64s.

There is also Transmeta which produces the Efficeon CPU and VIA which makes EPIA.
You may also get an AMD Geode :)

Socket 754 chips generally cost far less than the s939 ones at comparable speeds...

Only until this Wednesday. These new 90nm chips run cooler too, 1.4V core instead of 1.5V. The 90nm 3500+ goes on sale Monday. I'd expect Newegg, MWave, and the rest of the usual suspects to get them around then or shortly thereafter.

DDR2 has much higher latency than DDR1 (negating one of the major AMD64 advantages) and costs twice as much. I don't know why AMD would bother with it. PCI-Express boards will be here soon enough, well before Christmas, if you absolutely have to have one.

AMD released the 90nm Athlon 64 3000+ Low-Voltage notebook CPUs today. Acer gets the first batch for their new Ferarri 3400 and Europe gets the first batch of those. Oh well, I'm holding out for an Athlon 64 notebook with a high-end nVidia GPU anyhow since ATI apparently can't be bothered to write decent 64-bit Linux drivers.

Socket 754 chips generally cost far less than the s939 ones at comparable speeds...

Only until this Wednesday. These new 90nm chips run cooler too, 1.4V core instead of 1.5V. The 90nm 3500+ goes on sale Monday. I'd expect Newegg, MWave, and the rest of the usual suspects to get them around then or shortly thereafter.

DDR2 has much higher latency than DDR1 (negating one of the major AMD64 advantages) and costs twice as much. I don't know why AMD would bother with it. PCI-Express boards will be here soon enough, well before Christmas, if you absolutely have to have one.

AMD released the 90nm Athlon 64 3000+ Low-Voltage notebook CPUs today. Acer gets the first batch for their new Ferarri 3400 and Europe gets the first batch of those. Oh well, I'm holding out for an Athlon 64 notebook with a high-end nVidia GPU anyhow since ATI apparently can't be bothered to write decent 64-bit Linux drivers.

Socket 754 chips generally cost far less than the s939 ones at comparable speeds...

Only until this Wednesday. These new 90nm chips run cooler too, 1.4V core instead of 1.5V. The 90nm 3500+ goes on sale Monday. I'd expect Newegg, MWave, and the rest of the usual suspects to get them around then or shortly thereafter.

DDR2 has much higher latency than DDR1 (negating one of the major AMD64 advantages) and costs twice as much. I don't know why AMD would bother with it. PCI-Express boards will be here soon enough, well before Christmas, if you absolutely have to have one.

AMD released the 90nm Athlon 64 3000+ Low-Voltage notebook CPUs today. Acer gets the first batch for their new Ferarri 3400 and Europe gets the first batch of those. Oh well, I'm holding out for an Athlon 64 notebook with a high-end nVidia GPU anyhow since ATI apparently can't be bothered to write decent 64-bit Linux drivers.

Building a performance system is the best option to do it economically. Unfortunately, Alienware has a jump on the market with the dual PCI express graphics motherboards.

Barring that, I'd buy a system from a company that supports (indirectly or through ads) the OSS community.

I'm talking about Monarch Computer and similar vendors obviously.

If you want a RAID solution that is not absolutely awful without spending loads of money on SCSI hardware, the only way to go is 3ware. They are the only ATA hardware RAID solution (which means dedicated hardware on the controller is responsible for RAID operations, not some stupid kernel-space driver) and offer controllers with either parallel or serial ATA interfaces. I myself am using two Escalade 7006-2 cards (32-bit PCI interface, parallel ATA, two disks per controller) under FreeBSD and they are excellent. Performance is good, disaster recovery is flawless (they support background mirror rebuilding), and compatability is perfect.

They are also quite cheap. If you go to Monarch Computer, you can find the model I have for around $110 with free shipping.

I know it's hard to trust advice from Slashdot, but this is the best way to go. As many others have pointed out, RAID-1 is the obvious choice for personal uses. And always stay away from software RAID. Whether it's the Linux kernel RAID subsystem or Promise, Highpoint, etc. (these "RAID cards" are in fact software), software RAID sucks and will increase the chances of data loss, not reduce it.

I have a blog entry that talks a little bit more about this.

If you want a RAID solution that is not absolutely awful without spending loads of money on SCSI hardware, the only way to go is 3ware. They are the only ATA hardware RAID solution (which means dedicated hardware on the controller is responsible for RAID operations, not some stupid kernel-space driver) and offer controllers with either parallel or serial ATA interfaces. I myself am using two Escalade 7006-2 cards (32-bit PCI interface, parallel ATA, two disks per controller) under FreeBSD and they are excellent. Performance is good, disaster recovery is flawless (they support background mirror rebuilding), and compatability is perfect.

They are also quite cheap. If you go to Monarch Computer, you can find the model I have for around $110 with free shipping.

I know it's hard to trust advice from Slashdot, but this is the best way to go. As many others have pointed out, RAID-1 is the obvious choice for personal uses. And always stay away from software RAID. Whether it's the Linux kernel RAID subsystem or Promise, Highpoint, etc. (these "RAID cards" are in fact software), software RAID sucks and will increase the chances of data loss, not reduce it.

I have a blog entry that talks a little bit more about this.

Silly me, I should have given the direct link:
Asus A8V Deluxe Socket 939 board

Paul Sundling
www.planatar.com

i didn't see it mentioned here by anyone else, but as reported on a couple of (sites for one)
there's a neat new box coming out from IWILL that crams two(2) Opterons in a SFF case.
Unfortunately, if you need something now, this one will be coming too late for you unless you're a
developer/partner/etc:

"IWILL ZMAX based on nVIDIA nForce3 Pro 250Gb chipset will sample in July.
Volume production is planned in September, with a suggested price of $499.
IWILL plans to get attention in workstation market. ZMAXdp will include proprietary
form factor motherboard, 300W power supply, up to 2x3.5" HDD bay, and 1xAGP;
PCI and SI can offer various configurations for workstation market demand."

it sounds like it could be a nice little box...

other pre-built systems include:

Pre-built
Caliber

there are others, but I've lost my wish-list ;-)
You could also build one yourself, but I'd look for the nForce3 pro 250 or 250Gb, the NF3-150 didn't
exactly get extraordinary reviews.
Good Luck!

Well, the moral of the story, boys and girls, is that you shouldn't trust information you find on-line if you can't verify the source as someone you trust. Simple as that, really...

Online or offline. This isn't anything new here kids. If you put your trust in information whose source or quality can't be confirmed - you are an idiot.

Let me put this into terms that even a slashdot geek could understand:

Would you buy a dual Opteron workstation from some mysterious Romanian in a dark alley? Of course not, because its probably full of potatos. Would you buy a dual Opteron workstation from here or from here? Of course, because these are trusted sources.

Get it now??

We've got a couple of Opterons at work, one for 32-bit compatibility testing, and another for the AMD64 port. It's pretty cool to see this in Python on SuSE Linux 8.2 beta:

>>> type( 9223372036854775807 )
<type 'int'>

From Monarch Computer

Setup AMD Opteron Barebones System $35.00
CS-10182-BA Tower w/No PS - Black $84.00
Sparkle FSP460-PFN-EPS (ATX-EPS) $89.00
ASUS nForce3 SK8N DDR ECC RAID SATA $239.00
AMD Opteron 140 1.4GHz 64/32-Bit $269.00
512 MB DDR 2100 Reg ECC $119.00
512 MB DDR 2100 Reg ECC $119.00
Motherboard-CPU Warranty - 6 Month
Total: $954.00

Okay, I think I made a mistake, the box sitting NEXT to "The Hornet" was the quiet one.
The Monarch ULB 2800 Ultra Quiet

Sorry. It was a long week.

There's a fork called IPCop, no RM, no ego, and for those that wonder about noise, try using a flash card, or check out this little $283 dollar box called "The Hornet" at Monarch Computer They also have quieted boxes too. I was checking it out at Linux World last week, it seemed quiet enough (although there was quite a lot of noise (People) in general at LWE) So I *COULD* be mistaken. How can ya go wrong for 283 bucks though?

. Dont know why some people still opt for the $12 one that specifically says "all sales final", which can be translated to "we are warning you now, dont yell at us when it blows up tomorrow and takes your MBoard+cpu with it". Ive seen too many computers dead from blown PS's to count.

Tm

Yes virginia, it exists
And it's not just SuSe, RedHat has AMD 64 too (unofficially)-
ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/redhat/r edhat/linux/previ ew/gingin64/en/iso/x86_64

BTW, you don't want quad opteron with AGP, AGP just wastes a hypertransport and makes it all assymetrical. Maybe once they up the HT clock.

Fuck consumer-grade hardware. The vast majority of my hardware is workstation-grade hardware. It's better quality and is better able to keep running the current software longer than consumer-level hardware. Besides, I doubt you're going to see the G5 for any cheaper than the current price of the Opteron anyways.

>So would you like to retract your statement or would you like me continue kicking that dumb ass of yours?

??? You post a site which verifies that intel charges more, and you expect me to retract my statement?

This place is full of more whackos than I thought.

>Please try to choose a respectable site when comparing CPU prices.

So, a site that advertises a similar price on CPUs as sharky's, that anybody in my city who deals with computers knows about, that isn't respectable?

Well, clearly your idea of respectable and mine are different.

In fact, I am sure we differ on a great many things, like, for example, what the idea of costs less is. Usually less (by definition) means a lower amount.

You really have me wondering what drugs you're smoking.

I'd add you to my foes list, but perhaps you can explain what the hell you're talking about instead.

Oh, and learn to use A HREF, most especially when you're going to call others unrespectable. That verifies that you are a dumbass.

Last, but certainly not least, AT A MINIMUM, compare the prices from the same store for crying out loud!

Since you didn't, let me post the prices of both CPUs from the two stores you mentioned:

Monarch:
Athlon XP 3000+ = $324 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.
Intel P4 478 3.0 GHz (HT) 512K 533 FSB (Retail Box-w-fan) = $386 (Sharky's is so respectable they missed this. Really makes me want to trust them! NOT)
Intel P4 478 3.00 GHz 800 FSB (Retail Box-w-fan) = $549.00 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.

Okay, so Monarch (aside their crappy supply schemes) has similar pricing. Of course, you pay in the fact that they'll only sell you one. Which is really, really, really lame and disrespectable. At least the store *I* linked to would sell you as many as you wanted.

So, Newegg is the other retailer. Let's see how they match up. Hopefully their "big name" status will

Yikes! Sharky, your "reputable" source is wrong again with the prices.

I'll list the real prices instead of the lies Sharky is trying to spread.

Intel Pentium 4 / 3.0GHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB - RETAIL = $545.00 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.
Intel Pentium 4 / 3.06GHz 512k 478 Pin Processor HT Technology 533 MHz FSB Retail ETA 4/20/03 = $384.00 (!!! LIMIT FIVE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- Seems that Newegg has serious inventory issues. Perhaps they need a stock manager?
AMD ATHLON XP 3000 "Barton" 333 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- RETAIL = $326.00 (!!! LIMIT FIVE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- Seems that Newegg has serious inventory issues. Perhaps they need a stock manager?

But don't let that stop your blind devotion to intel's high prices and inability to provide stock!

And, let's not forget the (for us Canadians) week of wait

>So would you like to retract your statement or would you like me continue kicking that dumb ass of yours?

??? You post a site which verifies that intel charges more, and you expect me to retract my statement?

This place is full of more whackos than I thought.

>Please try to choose a respectable site when comparing CPU prices.

So, a site that advertises a similar price on CPUs as sharky's, that anybody in my city who deals with computers knows about, that isn't respectable?

Well, clearly your idea of respectable and mine are different.

In fact, I am sure we differ on a great many things, like, for example, what the idea of costs less is. Usually less (by definition) means a lower amount.

You really have me wondering what drugs you're smoking.

I'd add you to my foes list, but perhaps you can explain what the hell you're talking about instead.

Oh, and learn to use A HREF, most especially when you're going to call others unrespectable. That verifies that you are a dumbass.

Last, but certainly not least, AT A MINIMUM, compare the prices from the same store for crying out loud!

Since you didn't, let me post the prices of both CPUs from the two stores you mentioned:

Monarch:
Athlon XP 3000+ = $324 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.
Intel P4 478 3.0 GHz (HT) 512K 533 FSB (Retail Box-w-fan) = $386 (Sharky's is so respectable they missed this. Really makes me want to trust them! NOT)
Intel P4 478 3.00 GHz 800 FSB (Retail Box-w-fan) = $549.00 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.

Okay, so Monarch (aside their crappy supply schemes) has similar pricing. Of course, you pay in the fact that they'll only sell you one. Which is really, really, really lame and disrespectable. At least the store *I* linked to would sell you as many as you wanted.

So, Newegg is the other retailer. Let's see how they match up. Hopefully their "big name" status will

Yikes! Sharky, your "reputable" source is wrong again with the prices.

I'll list the real prices instead of the lies Sharky is trying to spread.

Intel Pentium 4 / 3.0GHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB - RETAIL = $545.00 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.
Intel Pentium 4 / 3.06GHz 512k 478 Pin Processor HT Technology 533 MHz FSB Retail ETA 4/20/03 = $384.00 (!!! LIMIT FIVE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- Seems that Newegg has serious inventory issues. Perhaps they need a stock manager?
AMD ATHLON XP 3000 "Barton" 333 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- RETAIL = $326.00 (!!! LIMIT FIVE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- Seems that Newegg has serious inventory issues. Perhaps they need a stock manager?

But don't let that stop your blind devotion to intel's high prices and inability to provide stock!

And, let's not forget the (for us Canadians) week of wait

>So would you like to retract your statement or would you like me continue kicking that dumb ass of yours?

??? You post a site which verifies that intel charges more, and you expect me to retract my statement?

This place is full of more whackos than I thought.

>Please try to choose a respectable site when comparing CPU prices.

So, a site that advertises a similar price on CPUs as sharky's, that anybody in my city who deals with computers knows about, that isn't respectable?

Well, clearly your idea of respectable and mine are different.

In fact, I am sure we differ on a great many things, like, for example, what the idea of costs less is. Usually less (by definition) means a lower amount.

You really have me wondering what drugs you're smoking.

I'd add you to my foes list, but perhaps you can explain what the hell you're talking about instead.

Oh, and learn to use A HREF, most especially when you're going to call others unrespectable. That verifies that you are a dumbass.

Last, but certainly not least, AT A MINIMUM, compare the prices from the same store for crying out loud!

Since you didn't, let me post the prices of both CPUs from the two stores you mentioned:

Monarch:
Athlon XP 3000+ = $324 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.
Intel P4 478 3.0 GHz (HT) 512K 533 FSB (Retail Box-w-fan) = $386 (Sharky's is so respectable they missed this. Really makes me want to trust them! NOT)
Intel P4 478 3.00 GHz 800 FSB (Retail Box-w-fan) = $549.00 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.

Okay, so Monarch (aside their crappy supply schemes) has similar pricing. Of course, you pay in the fact that they'll only sell you one. Which is really, really, really lame and disrespectable. At least the store *I* linked to would sell you as many as you wanted.

So, Newegg is the other retailer. Let's see how they match up. Hopefully their "big name" status will

Yikes! Sharky, your "reputable" source is wrong again with the prices.

I'll list the real prices instead of the lies Sharky is trying to spread.

Intel Pentium 4 / 3.0GHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB - RETAIL = $545.00 (!!! LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- CLEARLY Indicates price dumping, or REALLY poor stock, either way, a VERY bad sign.
Intel Pentium 4 / 3.06GHz 512k 478 Pin Processor HT Technology 533 MHz FSB Retail ETA 4/20/03 = $384.00 (!!! LIMIT FIVE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- Seems that Newegg has serious inventory issues. Perhaps they need a stock manager?
AMD ATHLON XP 3000 "Barton" 333 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- RETAIL = $326.00 (!!! LIMIT FIVE PER CUSTOMER !!!) <--- Seems that Newegg has serious inventory issues. Perhaps they need a stock manager?

But don't let that stop your blind devotion to intel's high prices and inability to provide stock!

And, let's not forget the (for us Canadians) week of wait

And don't forget that price differences are often overstated - sure, you can get some cheap PC hardware with superficially good specs, but there is usually some compromise in there.

I went over to Monarch Computer to check out their hardware (a side note: Monarch is a respected hardware vendor that was responsible for building the "Ultimate Linux Box" series that have become an annual feature in Linux Journal) and see what I could get. Lo and behold, I configured a dual AthlonMP 2600+ machine with the same ATI card (I want DVI output for a flat panel), same amount of RAM (2GB), same HD size (180GB), a 4x Pioneer DVD-RW drive, Intel network card and a Firewire card. That's parity with the Apple right there. However, I also was able to add an Audigy 2 sound card and get 3 years parts, labor and software support, a step above the Apple's configuration (Apple offers extended warranties and such, but they are quite expensive). Drop WinXP Pro in there, and it comes out to just a little over $2,550.

Now of course, this is also without a monitor, so I figure shelling out about $500 (Pricewatch price) for a Viewsonic VX800 flat panel (which has an additional inch on whatever's coming with the Apple). So that brings the PC total up to about $3,050. That's $1,550 less than the Apple right there, for what is undoubtedly faster hardware. With that kind of price difference, I could throw in Avid XpressDV (which is more mature and better than Final Cut Pro, and certainly has more quality third-party software support) and come out with a machine that cost me slightly more (like $50).

So, to sum things up, I could choose between the Apple, or a machine that is faster, cheaper and better-equipped for about $1,000 less when one figures in the cost of Final Cut Pro. Not to mention the wealth of games available for Windows that will never be ported to OS X.

Thanks, but I'll stick with PCs.

money is an issue (which it is for me) then I'm going through the time to research Price Watch

Hope you also research the companies as well. Otherwise you may be very unhappy with what you actually end up with.

My personal suggestion is to forget about Pricewatch and just buy from Newegg, or an equally highly rated vendor (I've also used MWave and Monarch Computers recently with good results - Monarch is local for me though). No, I have absolutely no interest in these companies, just good experiences. Newegg is the best of the three though - I've bought, returned, and RMA'd, all with absolutely zero issues.

As for a gaming PC - if you're not going to build it yourself, I wouldn't go Alienware unless you have money to burn. They're deeply overpriced for nothing special. Your best bet is to either go with an online vendor that sells entire systems (like Monarch) or to go to a local computer store and buy from there. The local angle always has the advantage of someone that you can lean on if you have problems or questions, and they're also very dependant on referrals for business, so they don't want to piss you off.

And, yes, they can get funky cases like Alienware has too.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

Asus A7M266-D AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $199

Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW AMD760 RAID DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $250

MSI K7D Master MPX AMD762 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $205

Tyan K7 (S2462UNG) AMD760 SCSI DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $409

Tyan (S2462NG) AMD760 REG DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $305.00

...More Tyan Thunders, all over $300...

Tyan Tiger (S2466-4M) AMD760-MPX DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $209.00

Tyan Tiger (S2460) AMD760 DDR (AMD Dual MP) -- $168.00

Prices and links to Monarch Computers. I was quite surprised with the prices, I thought they'd be in the $125-$150 range. I my dual AMD shopping at Monarch (built a dual MP 1600+ on a tyan tiger mobo in december for a friend), you can hit pricewatch for price comparison, but I've found Monarch to be fairly representative.

As you can see, there are quite a few motherboards on the market, you can get reviews of most of them off http://www.amdmb.com . Of all of them, I recommend the cheapest Tiger with the older 760 chipset. I know that reviewers have gotten both non-MP athlons and durons to run on the system. I'm not sure if current XP processors will work, there was talk three months ago about AMD thinking about locking out the SMP capabilities out of the XPs, but they did not do this with older versions. The main difference between the XPs and the MPs is that the MPs are certified for SMP operation, if you want a cheap and powerful server (which appears to be your goal) then you probably don't care that your chips are uncertified. The newer 760-MPX chipset (last I heard) still has isses with the southbridge's USB 2.0 and most motherboards ship with an add-in card. I can't recommend it because I'm not sure if the chipset checks for MPs or not.

Of course, YMMV.

First place I go is www.newegg.com, everyone seems to respect them and I have always had luck with them.

Then I go to www.mwave.com because I have actually been to their warehouse, although sometimes their prices are higher than others.

This past January I put together a dual Athlon system with SCSI from www.monarchcomputer.com and they had everything I needed and they put the heatsinks and procs on the motherboard for me (so I didn't have to worry about chipping the Athlon core.)

If those 3 places don't have it I usually go to a local shop because I don't like buying from any where else.

(Plus the first 2 places have good (IMHO) RMA support.)

I realize Dell has pretty huge exposure in the PC industry, so whatever they do people pay most attention to, but the fact is other companies have started offering Linux pre-installed on their computers. I'll cite Monarch Computer as an example, from which you can get RedHat or Mandrake preinstalled as well as customize your entire order. There are several other companies like this...so stop complaining about Dell dropping Linux and start buying from other places that do offer Linux. If these companies start making enough profit off selling Linux computers, Dell and others will take notice and perhaps start offering it again.

I followed the link to MonarchComputer.com site they used to build their "Ultimate Linux Box", and what did I see?

This site is best viewed in Internet Explorer 5.0 and above.

Yuck.

While we're at it, I'm going to post the specs on a more down-to-earth machine that I'll be building shortly. My ultimate goal is to create the ultimate workstation / gaming box that won't sound like a small aircraft when you turn it on.

$189 Seagate Barracuda IV SoftSonic 80 Gig
The 'Cuda IV is probably the quietest and one of the fastest Ultra-100 Drives in existence. A pair of 40-gig platters with Softsonic fluid-bearing motors keep the noise down below 30dB

$757 2x1.2Ghz AthlonMP
2x256 ECC DDR RAM
Tyan Tiger MP
2xThermalTake VolcanoII Cooler
The Tiger is the baby-brother of the Thunder. You get the same performance as the Thunder, without the extras, such as on-board SCSI, & integrated ethernet. You can look up specs at tyan.com.All of these components may be purchased, pretested, from Monarch Computers as an "AMD Pretested Combo;" Monarch produces very high quality boxes (my last three, actually).

$070 SD-M1502 Toshiba 16X DVD Drive
This drive's a fairly good performer, (try a google search for the model number and "review"), but what I am interested in is the noise and vibration factors. Toshiba's introduced a type of balance mechanism designed to handle unbalanced / cheap discs.

$335 Asus GeForce3 Pure 64Meg AGP
At this point, the choice of video card is purely up to the builder; I chose this one simply because it was one of the better performing, and the higher quality cards (google will tell all about this card...)

$85 SB Audigy X-Gamer!
Hey, why not? At $85, it's not a bad deal at all for a new whiz-bang sound card.
??? Speakers?
Up to you.

$014 floppy
Duh. Pick one.

$170? Lian-Li PC-60 Case
Reasons for this part: 1. It's cool. Literally.
2. It's light-weight.
3. Lian-Li cases are extremely high quality, which explains the high price.

$089 Enermax Whisper 431W EG465P-VE(FC) Power Supply
The Whisper is an ultra-quiet PS with variable speed fans. If you look at the Product Page, you can see the various nice specs on this PS.

$214 24X10X40 Plextor CD-RW
Based on various net reviews (again, google), this is the current burner of choice. That'll probably change by the time I finish typing this setence, but that's the nature of the technology.

$80 Wireless Keyboard / Optical Wireless Mouse from Logitech
As a long-time logitech fan, the Logitech Cordless Freedom Optical takes all of the good stuff from their keyboards, mice, and wireless devices and wraps it into one package. Note that RF mice are not very good for games. I've owned one of these for about a month, and can say that I have no problems with either device until I try to play DoD or Q3A, in which case my trusty Mouseman Optical comes in handy.

$1918 Subtotal sans Shipping (If the numbers don't add up, I'm gonna look really, really stupid. Oh well.) (updated price 10-13-01)

Most of my price info came from either Pricewatch or MySimon, fyi.