Slashdot Mirror
AMD: No Grease For You!
bahamat writes "In a surprising turn of events, this article over at Xtreme Tek explains that the official stance from AMD is that you will void your warranty if you use any thermal grease or if you're not using the heatsink provided with your CPU. Sucks to be you if you buy a defective AMD CPU and put a Zalman on it for the first boot." AMD, the article says, doesn't want you to use anything "other than Shin Estu G 749."
I hate when companies get too big for their boots and turn into dictatorships like this :-(
Slashdot - The one stop shop for procrastination
Rubbing alcohol! They'll never know.
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
AMD doesn't want to be responsible for people using too weak of heatsink/fans or too much thermal grease. What is the problem here?
Abortion is advocated only by persons who have themselves been born.
--Ronald Reagan
You do something that could potentially damage the processor (read the article), the company is perfectly well within its legal and moral rights to void the warranty. The warranty is not insurance against malice or stupidity.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
State Law mandates a 1 year parts and manufacturing warranty irregardless of OEM status or not. Say what you will about Calif. but we do look after the consumer, except for the power consumer that is...
So what does that say? Either too many people are either applying the grease too thickly, or people are using heatsinks and OCin' their processors too much.
Basicly what it sounds like is, people are cooking their CPU's from either/or...and AMD is tired of floating the loss because of idiots.
Om, nomnomnom...
If you're an idiot and break your processor while overclocking on it, why should AMD pay?
Why should us other AMD customers pay for that matter?
I'm astonished that there's any kind of warranty for broken/melted cores at all.How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Well printer companies already do this with their "official inks" and every other company does this so that you use more of their stuff.
Is it good business? Maybe. See below:
Is is going to make customers like you? Hell NO!
Why slashdot? Why not?
and drive down the price of my Intel, thanks :)
AMD does not have the legal right to prevent you from using 3rd party heatsinks as long as they're designed for the AMD CPUs. This is the same as saying using 3rd party ink in the printer will void the warranty. In both cases, the company is still legally obligated to honor the warranty, but fighting them in court for it is another matter.
Jason
ProfQuotes
gotta cover your ass, can't be too careful.
PFY gets his hands on a new AMD processor and decides he wants to clock it 2x past where it was ever supposed to run and it dies....
they're supposed to replace that?
nah, they cover their butts by saying that you should only use one heatsink and one thermal paste.
anyone with half a brain could clean off their thermal compound anyway, so who's to know?
if you're to stupid to clean off your proc. after your overclock it, well then you should probably be using the default heatsink.
kind of like when people ask how to enable root. if you need to ask, you shouldn't use it.
"Sucks to be you if you buy a defective AMD CPU and put a Zalman on it for the first boot"
AMD Athlon XP(TM) Processor Thermal Solutions
When selecting a thermal solution for your system, please refer to the following listing of heatsinks evaluated and recommended by AMD for use with AMD Athlon XP(TM) processors. Note, the following heatsinks are recommended for maintaining the specified Maximum die temperature requirement. In addition, this selection is not intended to be a comprehensive listing of all heatsinks that support AMD processors.
From the article:
"using a heatsink other than the stock heatsink on a retail chip also voids the warranty."
So if you pay the $10-15 extra for the retail instead of OEM, they expect you to use the hs/fan that comes with it.
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
the only reason they did that was because they wanted to increase their standing as a tightass quality company like intel. they dont actually expect people to use shin tzu jr on their cpu. why dont the thermal goo people start making pads anyways? they could sell them to the heatsink manufs and save us some trouble. that way we have good interface material and dont have to void the warranty. i wonder if this bullshit goes for the opteron/athlon64 too?
Boycott AMD! Oh, wait, I'm already boycotting Intel for making high priced chips with high speeds that have poor performance.....CRAP!
first of all, i've seen quite a few systems that use
just the heatsink and the crappy thermal pad on the heat sink with no grease, and they overheat easily.
On the 100+ machines (all amd) i've built for clients (including a pile of rack mounted servers), i've always removed the worthless thermal pad, and used artic silver III, and i've NEVER had a overheating problem.
This is one recommendation from the manufacter i'd encourage everyone to ignore. Instead, read the overclocker sites for how to properly cool your cpus. I dont overclock myself, but i think the oc'ers have a good handle on cooling.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
AMD used to require heatsink compound / thermal paste / thermal grease / whatever it's called these days.
The Shuttle SN41G2 requires a user to not use the AMD heatsink, as the box comes with a custom heatpipe to get the heat from the CPU away from the chip, and the insides of the system. Using the AMD heatsink could lead to the system building up too much heat internally, and causing the box to shut down or crash. I'm sure AMD processors are also used in similar custom machines.
Why is it the consumers fault AMD never integrated thermal protection or a heat spreader into their processors to protect them? Personally, I'm glad I have a P4 in my gaming box that won't fry its self if a fan dies.
using KY jelly as a lubricant. it makes things run much more sexually, and reduces friction.
When I received my AthlonXP 2400+ retail box, the heatsink was missing the covering for the adhesive pad. I had two options: Return it and pay a shitload of shipping and wait a week or two, or get thermal grease. I went with the thermal grease. I think I'll go back to Intel when I have to upgrade again.
Someone should force AMD execs to sleep in a room with a stock fan/heatsink and see how they like it. I get terrible nightmares if I actually manage to fall asleep from the loud roar.
I've been in the electronics industry a long time and have never heard of this phrase. Google hasn't heard it either. I think it was a phrase made up on the spot to impress or intimidate us, like "quantum singularity" or "weapons of mass destruction".
Those who bothered to read the article would have found this little gem of a quote from Arctic Silver at the end:
Yeah, and anyone who takes their under-warranty low power, fuel efficient car and replaces the radiator with an unapproved aftermarket part, and replaces the coolant with something that doesn't meet manufacturer requirements, probably won't get warranty service, either!
Sorry to interrupt you tirade, but has it occurred to you that overclocking probably also voids the warranty regardless of what heatsink you're using? Just a thought, you know...
I'm astonished that there's any kind of warranty for broken/melted cores at all.
I've got an Athlon 1GHz. I'm still using the stock HSF and it hovers around 65 degrees celcius in the winter. During a summer day my core can hit nearly 80 degrees.
Now I know the core is rated to go to 105 degrees but if my core melted while running at 80 degrees I'd expect it to be replaced for an Athlon that does run properly at up to 105 degrees.
This makes it more of a pain for repair shops too though. Imagine having to stock certain fans [and I assume by heatsinks, they mean fans too], for the odd case of AMD that needs it or no warantee for the customer?
Why slashdot? Why not?
Didn't any of you notice that they only specifically said that Arctic Silver will void your warranty? The reason for this is that Arctic Silver is a Thermal EPOXY... While the text of the article also points out that they don't like the "conductive properties" of (obviously) the minute ammount of silver in it, they also on their "green-list" had a thermal greese that does have minute ammounts of silver. I do not think they are trying to dictate what you use, beyond trying to keep idiots from costing them needlesly large ammounts of money. Face it, just about everyone in the world thinks they know enough to set up a computer, but when they do it, they will completely forget the HS/FAN or use too much thermal greese to the point where it's minute conductive properties cause shorts... It is the idiots they are after, not us... give them a break!
Erutangis ym si siht.
Huh? You're going to sue AMD if you overclock and your CPU fails? I'm astonished too.
If Intel still provides warranty under these conditions then if I'm AMD I'd off-the-record recommend you use Intel. Doh.
If anyone is the overclocking type, they should be willing to put in a few extra hours. First test with standard boxed CPU heatsink+fan. I system works for a day (memtest86), then change to desired heatsink+fan.
If you bought an expensive heatsink and fan and your CPU dies after running fine on standard cooling kit, then either you screwed up or you've been cheated by the heatsink/fan manufacturer/supplier.
especially since overclocking already voids the warrant and all.
there is a warranty for broken/melted cores because sometimes fans fail to cool, even during normal use. Trust me, if your proc ever dies, you'll be glad for that warranty
YOU SUCK BALLS!
They can't *prevent* you from doing it.....
Any warrantee beyond the implied one usually required by law (fitness for a particular purpose, etc) is OPTIONAL, and they don't have to offer one at all; and if they DO, it can be under whatever terms they like.
So... if you take it home and it's busted out of the box, yeah, they have to do something about it.. because that's the law.
IF it breaks in six months, but had a 12 month guarantee on it saying you had to use the original cooler.. and you used another one, why should they honor it?
I have my folks here visiting right now from out of state. I decided to peek in and see what's cooking on Slashdot nonetheless.
Now, if I were to go in the other room and tell my folks that people were ranting and raving on a website about no being allowed to use the heat sink grease of their choice on a computer processor..... Well, regular down to earth real people just wouldn't understand.
The ultimate cooler review site: http://www.dansdata.com/coolercomp.htm
:-)
Just a good one to bookmark
No, I did not read the f***ing article!
WHAT? Are you suggesting that pushing your hardware to dangerous limits it wasn't intended to operate at is NOT condoned by companies? Furthermore, are you even suggesting that after my overclocked system dies, AMD won't happily shell over a new proc? LUDICROUS! How dare you spread such lies!
(ps: the above was an attempt at humor)
YOU SUCK BALLS!
fuck'em
I don't see a problem with this. AMD will only guarantee its equipment with parts they provide. Use your own parts, and you're responsible for damage. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
if I, for instance, cover the processor in oil, or rather, specially created oil for use with AMD CPUS, and "somehow" my processor dies, they should have to replace? Most(the VAST majority) of the time a processor dies, it's because people are either A. Idiots, or B. Overclocking, etc. AMD should not have to pay for people if they put an underpowered heatsink on a processor, or coat it in a pint of thermal grease. They're not saying "We will hunt you down if you use a different heatsink", all they are doing is saying "If it dies, we aint paying".
I noticed last time I did you. Slid right in, and I could hardly hear you with your face shoved in a pillow.
This has nothing to do with OEM status, this has to do with voiding your warranty through improper usage. If you hook up the wrong battery to your car and it dies, you're not eligible for warranty service. Same here -- don't use the heatsink that comes with it, and it's your problem if it dies.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Last summer, me and a friend built a computer using an amd athlon xp, after using thermal grease and a standard fan, we noticed the computer kept overheating insanely (nearly 90c with 5 fans running = bad). Anyways, we decided to return the cpu, covered in grease, back to the local fry's. Of course they don't accept cpu's covered in thermal grease, so we went to the k-mart next door, bought some rubbing alcohol and q-tips, and spent nearly an hour trying to get rid of the thermal grease. Needless to say, by the time most was off, the serial number on the cpu had been taken off, so the worker bee at Fry's had to stick it in their little test motherboard to see that it actually ran at 2.2Ghz of death.
This whole issue is just AMD's way to get out of making poor-quality processors (at least as of last summer).
*** As a side note, I contacted AMD tech support concerning thermal grease and got an answer just three days ago, and the support rep was the person that told me to just use a "smidgeon" (his word for "a tiny bit"). This absurd decree is coming from high up in marketing somewhere, not from the actual "know people". At least that's my guess. I would copy and paste the email, but I'm not sure how they would react, and my employer has a nice partnership with AMD, so.......
...but I haven't had to resort to any third party HSF units for any of the AMD systems I've built so far.
I find the stock HSFs to be more than enough to keep all of my systems running within normal temps, and they're not as noisy as some (most) aftermarket fans.
Sounds like you've got some bad air flow management going on in your cases. That's the only time I've ever seen an AMD proc with stock HSF run hot.
Everyone's mileage will vary. I think if AMD takes a hard stand against processor abuse, it'll ultimately drive down their prices.
Compute responsibly.
I've installed my last three heatsinks, including my current Zalman CNPS6000AlCu, with pink TIM wax pads. TIM pads are cheap, neat, and don't require you to get crap all over your hands during application. I'll never go back to the goop game.
Since it doesn't make a difference what the hell you use to stick your heatsink onto your CPU--hell, toothpaste works just as well as AS-3--I'll stick with the easy stuff.
Shut off your computer at night.
From m-w.com (highlighting MINE):
:-P
One entry found for irregardless.
Main Entry: irregardless
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
My comment on yours:
The prblem with dumping AMD is that the only alternative is Intel, who sells their lackluster-performing chips at inflated prices. My Athlon XP CPU is about $30 cheaper then the closest Intel Pentium offering, and performs much better. So what if it's loud and hot.
/.'ers can't like Intel, and if we can't like AMD either, what kind of processors will we use? =P
I am one of those people who assemble a PC, and don't touch it except to clean it out. I bought a retail AMD processor applied the HS/Fan that came with it, and have never had to take it off.
AMD only warranties RETAIL CPUs, OEM CPUs are usually warrantied by the retailer, usually if you buy a HS/Fan from them. So, if you buy OEM CPUs this doesn't apply to you. If you intend on using arctic silver / Zalman, then buy a OEM CPU (tcwo.com warrants them for a year with a HS/Fan purchase). If you want your warranty backed by AMD, buy a Retail procassor and use the included HS/Fan.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Let me explain the problem with a simple example. And this has nothing to do with those who want to overclock their CPU or otherwise soup up their system.
The fan on the "stock heatsink" they talk about is less than quiet, but more importantly is poor enough that in many cases it will not even last the life of the warranty on the CPU. And the phase change material is "one use", you can't remove the heat sink and reapply it again with the same strip of heat sink material and have it function properly. When my heat sink fan died some months after I started using it (as detected by the BIOS seeing it slowing down considerably and a reelated increase in CPU temperature), I went to the local CompUSA and got a replacement copper fan. The "stock heatsink" just isn't always available. The replacement heatsink does a far better job, but I had to use a non-conductive thermal grease to install it. By this proclimation, I would have voided my warranty in two ways, using thermal grease and a better but non-standard heat sink.
I much prefer AMD over Intel, but if AMD is going to do this they need to consider some real world situations. As far as I know they don't warranty the heatsink fan, and even if they were to start it would not be reasonable for them to expect a user to not use their computer for the time it takes to ship back a bad fan and get a replacement. If they were supplying a fan and heatsink that would never need replacement, they might be on a more moral high ground, but having a stock fan that dies easily and then claiming you void the warranty if you correctly replace the heat sink isn't user friendly. And, of course, there are some people wo have a problem with the noise the stock fan makes, and while the argument is not as strong as the one I just made, I think they should be able to replace the stock haetsink and fan with a quieter one if they want, as long as they follow good technical procedures. I certainly don't have a problem with AMD stating they will not be responsiable for problems caused by conductive thermal grease, but this policy does seem to go too far, particularly given the fan they supply on that heatsink.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
About a month ago, I decided to build a dual processor Athlon MP system. When I got the cpu, I thought "neat! this pink goo is a big improvement over the usual messy paste"
Except, my system wouldn't boot. It would start for about 1 sec., then shut down with an overtemperature warning. I called Gigabyte and a month or so later, I get an email "replace the pad with thermal grease". A little bit of thermal paste and some rubbing alcohol later, the system runs just fine!
So, anyway, if AMD doesn't want people to use different heatsinks or thermal grease, they should sell something that _works_.
I have two AMD Athlon MP 2000+'s in on a Tyan Tiger MPX motherboard, and a gig of ram, in a full-tower case with four intake fans -- one on the bottom front, one on the side middle over the cards, and two in the middle back under the power supply. The exhaust fan is the PS, of course.
When running Windows 2000 on this machine, the operating temp as reported by the BIOS runs between 50c and 60c.
When I run Gentoo Linux, set up from a stage1 install and compiled specifically for the Athlon MP, the machine crashes as the temperature rises to 75c.
I'm using the retail processors that came with the fan. It's plain that they're installed correctly, but the thermal pad on the bottom (even with the adhesive backing removed properly) isn't capable of dissapating the heat.
Does this mean I'm prohibited by warranty terms from running optimized code? AMD really needs to answer this question. If they want to they could easily come up with a recommended list of approved grease, or contract with someone to sell "official grease" for situations like mine.
Remove the caps and hold to a mirror.
I had to underclock my 1.2 GHz Athlon to 900 MHz to keep it from overheating in the summer in my unairconditioned apartment. In the winter, I had to keep my apartment uncomfortably cold to keep the thing from overheating, because the air vents for my heater are too near the computer area.
This was after trying a couple different heatsinks, and getting thermal grease.
Now both my systems are 2.4 GHz P4s. They run way cooler than the AMDs, even when I let my heater make my apartment toasty warm.
What if you're just trying to be responsible, and applied thermal compound to your cpu as per standard industry practice? Should you be responsible for a faulty CPU when you took every reasonable effort to protect it from overheating?
Not the only reason. Some want quieter systems, and some want more efficient cooling for whatever reason, regardless of clock speed.
The obvious intent here is to make it so they are not liable for people who overclocked their CPUs and broke them, because anybody overclocking would definately upgrade thier cooling system.
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal, Clerks
It's adequate to cool it down- with a room at precisely 75 degrees, a fully and properly designed case, and a VERY noisy fan. If any of those criteria aren't met, you start running at temperatures, that while within AMD's specs, will definitely shorten the life of the CPU and the motherboard it's sitting on and lower it's overall stability. For some, this stuff is so that they can have the performance without the noise. For some, it's to have an extended range of temperatures that are adequate for their machine's good operation.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I believe it's because of that white crap that would cause many different processors to blow, the older Cyrix and early AMD's were victims.
I know Cyrix is old but is 24 watts dissipation not such a big deal anymore?
Oh, via's remake of the Cyrix runs almost cold, but slow compared to shrieking new ones.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
That's news to me and about everyone else using it.
This is the Arctic Silver AMD's talking about.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I recently bought an Intel retail boxed P4 and they strongly urged you not to use thermal grease. They said instead to use the thermal tape that came on their heatsink, and I did. Their reasoning is that the grease dries and it makes it impossible to remove the heatsink from the chip and you'll damage the chip.
scott
After running for over 3 months continuously, my Athlon PC shut down due to CPU temperature... while reading the article!!! Too weird.
It appears Ockham lost his razor and grew a beard.
From your link
"It's water based, which makes it inherently useless as a real thermal transfer agent, because it'll dry out quite quickly. It may also cause corrosion."
Yep, every bit as good.
I read about this earlier today on hardocp.com.
AMD isn't saying you can't use thermal grease at all. It's trying to limit what you use. They are evidentally having problems with thermal greases that contain conductive particles (like the Arctic Silver grease) shorting out the processors. Unfortunately, a lot of enthusiasts and overclockers use that type of thermal grease becuase it *does* transfer the heat to the heatsink better.
End of line..
If the CPU was so covered in grease, it's no wonder it ran hot. Thermal grease is meant to be used very sparingly. You want a very thin layer, just enough to fill the microscopic crevices on the CPU and heatsink mating surfaces (if the surface of the heatsink has larger-than-microscopic grooves, it's time to get out the sand paper and lap the base to a shiny finish). As good of a thermal conductor as thermal grease may be, it's terrible in comparison to a direct metal-on-metal connection. If you see a lot of grease squeeze out when you apply the heatsink, you've got too much. What you want to do is apply a thin bead of grease to one end of the CPU die, and spread it thinly across using a credit card or other device (driver's license, heavy piece of paper, etc).
If your thermal grease is applied correctly, it will come off of the CPU with little problem. A cotton swab and a dab of rubbing alcohol should be more than enough. If you have to scrub, you had too much grease to begin with.
Hate to see what names they didn't go with, before chosing this one.
Help fight continental drift.
Exactly where did AMD say it would void the warrantee? All AMD said, according to the article, is that they recommend a particular type of thermal grease. They didn't even MENTION the word "warantee"!
The author is jumping to conclusions prematurely.
Jason
No one has seen what you have seen, and until that happens, we're all going to think that you're nuts. - Jack O'Neil
The implication that OEM AMD processors are without any warranty whatsoever is appalling to me. If they ship me a dead chip, they need to replace it. While I am aware of the problems with morons who crack/fry/kill their CPUs due to ignorance/OCing, I have been piecing x86 boxes together fo years. If they won't warranty their stuff (OEM or not), I won't buy it. I won't build machines based on them for my customers either. Either stand up and take a stand on what you have made (AMD's chips), or I cannot in good conscience base my professional reputation on those products. For the record, I don't overclock anything that is still in warranty (I have a k6-2 I just overclocked, because I could care less if it dies, and if it does I have a couple of spare CPUs).
This news really gives me pause. I was planning on getting a water cooled case for my current OEM Athlon 2100+ so that the damned thing would be quieter, and then another for the x86-64 I was planning to build before to terribly long. However the removal of that as an option.... I would rather not go back to Intel, but they at least stand behind their stuff.
What's the big deal? Just take the heatsink off. I did, and there haven't been any pr%L:``
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
No I just have to find a use for my old heat sink.
hmmmmm. It's twice the size of my car's radiator maybe I can overclock my Yugo.
I was at a seminar in Chicago last Friday. Among the AMD reps was Michele Lam from AMDs corporate HQ. She's some big person in the RMA area and she pointed this out to us. Among other things they don't accept are: cracked or chipped CPUs and burned CPUs. I found the burned CHPUs amusing as my CPU caught on fire on Thursday and after a long discussion with Michele, she assured me they would accept the chip. I would have to say it probably depends on who is working in receiving that day. :)
I can't speak to the issue of AMD CPUs frying themselves. None of the many AMD processors I've owned since I first bought a K6/166 have ever become overly warm or lit on fire. But then again, I usually take the 30-50% I save from not buying Intel and get a good cooler (along with other accessories).
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
1) using grease means you are DIY with 3rd party stuff, which means it's easier for you (or the 3rd party suff you have) to screw up and
2) using grease *improves* thermal contact, making it easier to overclock, which of course voids your warranty anyway.
Now compare the XP's "no grease" tag like to this from the AMD Athlon(TM) 64 Processor Thermal Design Guide (from page 22, secion 2.6.6):
For those that don't know, the gum-paste stuff that comes on all XP heatsinks is "phase-change material." Seems the 64 is the *exact* opposite of the XP.
A dictionary search turns up:
Yay me!
I should know I've installed several dozen and got pissed at using various custom substances so a qtip dipped in wd40 along with a soft tissue dipped in likewise and one piece of toilet paper (to wipe off that nasty ass gasoline smell it leaves behind and the greasy looking stains you'd otherwise have left on it).
:)
And voila, looked like new, took a new coat of thermal paste/grease and... ran like new, all my servers still running after 2.0 years
That's my 2 cents.
JOKE: And to boot I bet it will never squeak either. Plus WD40 cuts through roughly any household thermal grease, including the vaunted Arctic Silver II stuff. The silicone paste comes off with water if anyone's worried. A moist towelette type thing will work just fine including the Staples/Radioshack anti static wipes. Hope that helps.
-Daedalus
PS - Arctic Silver 2 is good stuff, but not really much more effective than say... radioshack 1.99 tubes of thermal goo... the only rule is that you should use SOME form of evening compound to fill in gaps and uneven surface finish between cpu and heatsink... any paste will usually do, even thermal pads are better than nothing, unless that ONE degree difference from Arctic Silver II REALLY means much to you... in general all the silver compounds do is react to temperature changes more quickly... but unless you're running a superspiking cpu, you won't have an issue, and I have never had a cpu that spiked so fast and so hard that the thermal paste made a difference. Oh and to add, I've never had a CPU fail. It is all about cooling and how often you turn them on and off. Much like diesel motors...
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
And in case anyone is really worried, I have *never* heard of AMD refusing an RMA because of something like this. I just sent one back a month ago that died. It was almost certainly due to my mobo shorting itself out (but then comming back to life with a dead CPU), and I used both Arctic Silver III and a custom copper HSF. Just wiped off the CPU, packaged it up and sent it back, got my replacement in about 2 weeks, no problem whatsoever.
But a warning to anyone with a retail XP: KEEP THE ORIGINAL HSF. It doesn't matter if you don't use it, keep it on a shelf as the RMA process *requires* you to send the CPU back with the HSF, and the HSF has your serial # on it, *not* the CPU itself.
Oh well, seems it's already been moderated down. Oh my, what will it do to my Karma?
Only the moderators can tell...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I don't run the fastest/newest stuff, so when I bought an AMD 2200+, it costs me about $75.
I go on Priceline and I look for the cheapest stuff I can get, ideally from a place that I can trust (have used in the past). Ideally there are warrenties and stuff - but since I'm shooting for the cheapest... I get what I pay for.
As a result, I just sort of take it in stride - I can make my system the way I want and have to just eat it if I lose the processor.
But since it is only $75, it isn't that big a deal to me.
Were I making hundreds of these computers a year, or were I using the top of the line processors when they first came out - then I would likely care - but I can risk $75 on a computer that I build every year (at most).
That said - I do tend to use Crucial's RAM since I've never had issues with them - and they tend to cost a little more - but the difference is a few dollars - slightly different than processors.
I have been building a cluster and trying to have a fast buy cheap node and the Athlon has helped me with that. A cluster with the default heatsink would be loud as hell - so I use a quiet system instead - as a result, I use the thermal compound that comes with that. I've already had a case where the system was overheating and I wondered if it fried the chip - but the motherboard detects heat issues and shuts down if that is the case.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
After reading a few short posts... I came to this conclusion: screw em. Keep buying the oem processors. I just bought an XP 2400+ and got the retail version only because it was about the same price. (From googlegear.com) Now that I know the only difference is a restricted warranty and a crappy hs/fan combo, I'll continue to buy oem processors in the future. I'm sure the only ones who lose out are AMD. And btw, AMD, I used a tube of old Radio Shack silicon based grease and a volcano 5 (yes, 5) ... and my system is nice and cool at about 50C under full load (folding protein.) Nya nya nya.
FLR
It DOES work- and well. But I've found that "Goof Off" and "Goo Gone" do an equally adequate job and don't have anywhere near the flash point acetone does...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I recently noticed that on the home page the articles no longer have the jpeg image for the topic they represent. I.E. if the article is about portable games, right underneath the headline there is the jpeg of a game boy. I think it is easier for a reader to do a quick scroll down the main page and just see the image related to a topic he/she wants to read about...as opposed to reading each headline and caption. What happened, and will they bring this feature back?
So what if AMD only covers it for 90 days? Damn..the cpu's are cheap anyhow... buy 2. If you are using your own fan and heatsink, odds are you are familar with application of the thermal compound and heatsink/fan combo. Yes.. you may get a DOA cpu every once in a while..but what reseller has given people problems so far? I am far more likely to toast my CPU out of my own stupidity... and guess what.. it would be my fault. Go figure. Of course, I could battle it out with the reseller, AMD, or whoever, wait forever and try to get a replacment.... or I could get online, order a new CPU and away I go...
As noted in another comments, there are other "recommended" heat sinks.
However, AMD may or may not be willing to judge all heatsinks and just wants to set a "base" standard in that heatsink. Yea, it isn't great, maybe not that expensive for them to sell with it, and they'll replace it if it DOES break with it, that they don't question.
But, do you also expect them to review every heatsink and place it on a better/worse category than the one they use, and if they do, wouldn't you just demand that they use the best one for the same cost as the middle one they use now?
(from the zalman link)
Base Material: Pure Cooper width Gold Plating
No wonder it works so well!
This is a very inexpensive, easy to implement overclocking deterrent.
/., I can understand why they'd do this. There's no way for them to tell if you weren't using a HSF on their approved list.
Think about it. If it's a poor heat sink and fan that AMD requires you to use, then overclocking is out of the question because there's no way the HSF could regulate the temperature.
See, overclocking voids the warantee, but there's no way for AMD to tell if you were overclocking. This way they do know (or it's easier for them to tell) - assuming you used a different HSF while overclocking. I wonder what they'll do when hot cpus start failing in poorly ventilated cases, or in hot climates.
Personally I don't like it, because a crappy HSF... just sucks. I don't overclock, but I still want a half decent HSF. You could probably get away with using a different fan though. Watch, soon you'll see "heat sink extensions" that you lock on to AMD's required sink, and it extends the surface area of that heatsink.
Though given some of the crazy cooling solutions that have been posted on
-kidlinux.
Damn straight! I wish I could mod you up ! I was working at this electronics company, and there were these linear voltage regulators running REAL hot (10W in a T0-220, no joke), and the tech smothered them in grease, I mean thick gops everywhere, PLUS those rubber spacers. So the case gets barely warm and he thinks he's the thermal champ.
Of course, when I saw that shit I blew a fuse, (it was my design after all), but I couldn't make the guy grasp that the case has to be HOT for the heat to sink away!
I ask because I was swapping processors the other day and one was absolutely smeared with the stuff, and I got it all over my fingers. Anything to worry about?
The cheap stuff (including the stuff AMD's reccomending) contains oils that tend to dry out in a year or two, leaving this gummy mess that won't come off with isopropyl. (This is the main reason for my using Arctic Silver- it doesn't dry out like Shin Etsu, etc.) For that, you've got to use something like acetone, WD-40, Goof-Off, or Goo-Gone- even if you've applied it correctly.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Why exactly would I be voiding my warrenty by switching to something better?
but I got tired of reading through the posts...
;o)
i saw this yesterday...and basically, what it comes down to is this:
Artic Silver is conductive. People that do not know how to use the stuff properly have fried their processors.
'nuff said.
any other thermal paste is fine, providing it doesn't have tiny metal shavings in it.
so your cheapo go from radio shack will be fine, and no, they won't burn your warranty if you take off the crappy TIM.
You can still use AS(2, duh - you want to be able to upgrade, right?) just make sure it's off when you send it in
kinda like getting an auto manufacturer to cover that transmission that you blew up doing burnouts - if you don't clean all the rubber from the wheel wells, and the tires are noticeably more worn than the non-drive wheels, they probably will tell you where to go.
Just use the stuff with some knowledge, and you'll be ok.
You can always buy a comparable Intel part with integrated heatspreader / core protector for twice the price. Or you could buy an extra AMD chip to practice on. Or, my personal favorite: be careful putting the HSF on.
You have to be really careless to kill an Athlon. I've installed heatsinks dozens of times on Durons or Athlons, and haven't cracked a core yet. I've been progressively less careful as I've gotten more confident they're indestructable, but really this isn't a problem.
Test your CPU out with stock components. If it works, get a nicer HSF. If your chip dies a year after you bought it and AMD refuses to replace it because you used a nice Zalman heatsink, buy a new chip. Really. $50 will buy you what a year ago was a cutting-edge part. Take it as a blessing and move on.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
There is someone who apparently works at AMD over at the Bit-Tech forums who has been giving out unofficial information that seems to have quite a bit of merit to it. So make sure to check out what he is saying as he knows quite a bit about what he is talking about: Bit-Tech Forums (Remember, what he says isn't official, though)
screw CISC, give RISC the respect its due!
And with the new PowerPC 970 (Symmetric Multi Processing and NUMA) you'll smoke! ( and I don't mean catch fire...)
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I am suprised that no one has mentioned "The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act" which could be taken to forbid this kind of warrenty restriction.
It is the same law which forbids printer manufacturers from voiding a warrenty when you use a third party printer cartridge.
I suspect that AMD could forbid all thermal greases but limiting it to a specific brand probably would be illegal.
Well, I prefer a cpu that works and one where the company that makes it stands by it.
Of course, I use to be an avid AMD fan/supporter until I had just one too many dead cpus; I switched to Intel's P4. And I'm loving it. Every overclockable, and with the thermal management (throttling) that really works and higher clocks (if the clock is high enough, it can kick athlonXP's arse).
And another thing, I don't buy OEM and I choose items that come with a good warranty (no more "Death"-stars for me)
Hey... imagine that you're the dude at AMD who has to write the checks to pay back consumers who blew up their stupid chip and claimed it was defective. How would YOU feel about that? It makes your company look stupid. It makes your product look defective. It costs you money. It damages your business in every way.
So what do they do? They get some smart engineers to figure out something that works and that's what everybody is gonna do with their chips--if they want to retain their warranty, that is. You're still FREE (as in libre, as opposed to gratis) to mess around with the thing and put whatever you want on it, be it thermal grease, a different heatsink, or, hell, the radiator off your hermano's 35-year-old Chevy II that's sitting on blocks behind the house, if that's what you're so inclined to do. Just don't come crying to AMD that you blew up your chip, cuz IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT!!!
btw, do NOT use acetone to clean your credit card after using it to spread the thermal paste... as I said before, acetone cuts through almost anything, including the surface of credit cards. At least mine still has a magnetic stripe.
Business as usual, I would rather own an AMD than a cheap flimsey Intel (POS) processor. If they supported the millions of heatsinks/fan's out there with their chips, they'd be broke quick. Financially speaking they made the right choice. But I'm posisitive you can clean up your crispy chip from the overclock-killin' you did to it the last year and AMD will never know.
I use toothpaste. Works like a charm. Colgate BiCarb stuff works the best
Should you be responsible for a faulty CPU when you took every reasonable effort to protect it from overheating?
If you're overclocking, yes. Otherwise, no.
Actually, the cores aren't rated to go to 105C. There's a letter code in the part number that indicates the maximum rated temperature for that revision which can be as low as 70C. Although I think the original Athlons like you've got are rated at either 90C or 95C.
And what kind of stupid look do you think I would get if I went into my local computer retailer, ever the one with the AMD logo pasted on their wall, and siad I wanted to buy Shin Estu G 749.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
What a sad, sad story. I can't blame you for never getting over it. I'll bet you run Windows and think blues screens, system freezes and re-booting several times a day is acceptable. Pssst, wanna buy a Pentium with a minor floating point bug?
I have one of the Zalman deals on mine - copper and many blades that fan out. They all meet together at the bottom and at first glance it looks like a solid block there.
I put a little bit of thermal grease on my CPU, spread it around, and then put that heatsink down on it all and fired it up.
I smelled a burning smell, but it all worked for about a week.
Then it started overheating and shutting down all of the time.
I took off the heatsink and all of the thermal paste was gone.
The heatsink is made up of many thin fins and they are all pressed together at the bottom - the heat drove the grease up into the spaces between all of the fins and that was what I was smelling.
I put on a thicker layer and tried it again and the system runs without a hitch (or a smell) now.
So I guess there are sometimes needs for a bit more paste/grease.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Shuttle makes garbage. I bought a Shuttle barebones system (an SS40G) back in September, with an AMD Athlon XP chip. One day after 3 months of use the system just crapped out and died for no apparent reason. No video signal, nothing. Fans and lights are on, but nobody is home. Thinking it might be the CPU, I got a replacement. Nope, that wasn't it.
So I got an RMA number from Shuttle and sent it to their RMA center. It came back with paperwork indicating they replaced the power supply (which didn't seem to be broken). I put the chip back in, and the system still didn't work. The guy on the phone blamed my CPU. "Your bad power supply must have blown out that CPU sir... and we always test them before we send them back. So if you send it in to us again we'll just send it right back to you."
To complete the required mental masturbation, I tried a new (third) AMD CPU today. Of course it didn't work. This thing is going back with a nasty note. I wouldn't recommend Shuttle at all.
I think with the car example, if you install an important part yourself and are not a qualified professional, the company may be able to argue you did an improper installation job. Similarly, if you install your own heatsink, AMD could argue that you installed it improperly (not a farfetched notion, as a lot of heatsinks are improperly installed).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Greasing incorrectly makes things worse.
Furthermore, this is for AMD RETAIL cpus only, not OEM. So.. if you buy a retail cpu, they expect you to use the equipment they want you to use to cool it, or they won't honor the warrantee.
Fair enough.
If you want to use other stuff, don't buy retail, buy OEM.
So if I put water in the gas tank of my new car and the engine is defective I have legal recourse against the car manufacturer? Just one more reason I moved out of that idiotic country. Too many laws protecting the stupid person who can't read the fucking manual and gets burnt. Take personal responsibility.
It's a pretty low risk material. Alot less toxic than motor oils, paint or glue. Don't rub yours eyes, lick your fingers, or eat the stuff and wash your hands promptly and you'll be fine.
Here is a hazardous material datasheet for a typical thermal compound.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
"You do something that could _potentially_ damage the processor"
Due to consumer protection laws, they may not void a warranty if the potential problem did not actually contribute to the actual failure.
And a heatsink of better thermal capacity using an equivalent spec non-conductive thermal compound could in no way "potentially damage" the CPU. Seems to me they are trying to weasle out of returned CPUs that have been over-clocked and died early. And why I agree that the CPU should never have been returned (and the warranty voided) if it was run out of spec, this is the wrong way to go about it.
I think they should just focus on whether the CPU has been run outside of spec. There are technical ways to one time record (true or false) over-voltage/clock/heat conditions.
They are locking the barn after the horse has bolted. I can only hope that they have learned a lesson here.
Also there are ionic charges to consider, covalent bonding, and other factors. It's been 20+ years since I took chemistry, so most of this is a vague memory.
Plastic is of course made from crude oil (not all plastics come from crude, but you get the idea) and therefore readily dissolves in strong lipid solvents.
Hey, I didn't flunk out of college for nothing, man...
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
...AMD planted this story to use /. brainpower to think of ways to prevent violations :)
Next Intel will be posting about clock locking.
That's a bit too hot... try to keep it under 40C.
Oh yeah, and do like the other guy said: turn two of those fans around!
Buy a BOX CPU (Comes with integrated cooler). If CPU is defective, return it with the original fan and voila, no questions asked. Don't forget to remove all materials from the CPU, the perfect crime.
Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!
I can see where AMD is coming from. They are a business, and they are doing their best to remain profitable. It wouldn't be fair to AMD if it's customers used non standard 'grease' (damaging the processor) and needed to replace them under warranty. This has the potential to cost AMD a lot of $$$.
If AMD goes out of business due to replacing thousands of processors, they will stop producing affordable processors and stop working on speed increases. Then most of the world will need to purchase PowerPC or Intel machines at a higher cost.
What is so bad about "Shin Estu" grease? Is it expensive, or hard to get? If this is the case, AMD should consider testing similar products that are cheaper and easier to find. It would not cost much. After all, car manufacturers do not dictate the brand of engine oil that must be used, only the type.
Okay, so you have to use the stock heatsink. What's the problem? As long as you're not overclocking, it should be fine. If it blows up, it's covered under warranty. If you're overclocking it, thermal compound or not, YOU HAVE VOIDED YOUR WARRANTY ALREADY. The analogy at the end of that article is fucking stupid.
Look at it this way, if you applied the same criteria to selecting a car, everyone would be driving a low power, fuel efficient station wagon with rain tires and foot-thick rubber bumpers all the way around.
No, you would simply void your warranty by adding non-stock items on the car. Oh, wait, that's right, YOU DO. ANY TIME you heavily modify something, YOU VOID THE FUCKING WARRANTY. When you decide to overclock your chip, YOU DECIDE TO VOID TEH WARRANTY. When you put a V8 in your Hyundai, YOU ARE VOIDING THE WARRANTY. It's not that difficult to understand, people.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Why oh why do companies have to pull this kind of shit? AMD, don't you know who your target market is?! Do you really want to alienate your bread and butter by pulling stunts like this?
The warranty comes from the fact that VLSI chips have a tendency to have natural faults that come from overheating singular transistors. While they are extensively tested, those faults can naturally happen during normal operation with very low probability. Of course, overclocking greatly increases that probability, because with every clock tick the same current flows through the chip, but since the ticks are more frequent, the total energy dissipated within a unit of time is greater, increasing chance that certain points can be overheated and polysilicon at transistor gates will melt and short-circuit to source and/or drain of a transistor.
In any case, those things happen normally, too. It's a probabilistic problem and depends on temporary conditions and variation in chip manufacturing process.
iThink iHate iMod
My 1.33 had major heat issues it took 4 diffent coolers end up using a orb rated for 2200+ just to keep her stable. coolers i had were rated for 1800 and 1900 wert cutting it. and that with a very very thin layer of aritic silver.
What you want to do is go to a law library and look up Vandermark v. Ford Motor Co. 61 Cal.2d 256 (1963).
Vandermark bought a new Ford in Los Angeles. Six weeks later, with 1500 miles on the odometer, the brakes failed, causing the car to wreck, seriously injuring the driver and passenger.
The Ford Dealership acknowledged that the crash was caused by defective brakes, but pointed to the warranty that read, "Dealer's obligation under this warranty is limited to replacement ... of such parts ... acknowledged by Dealer to be defective." In other words, neither the dealer nor Ford would assume responsibility for the damage to the car or the injuries to its occupants caused by the defective brakes.
One could argue that if Vandermark wanted a car with a warranty that would cover defective manufacture more comprehensibvely, he should have bought a car from a dealer that offered a better warranty, but no dealers offered warranties with significantly greater coverage. In 1964, the court ruled that the Ford dealership was strictly liable for product defects irrespective of what the warranty might say because
. This followed the train of thought set in motion by Benjamin Cardozo, who wrote in 1916 in MacPherson v. Buick Motor Co. 138 NYS 224 (1912):You may argue that it is a long way from automobiles whose manufacturing defects put consumers and bystanders in danger of life and limb to a defective cooling fan on a CPU, and you would be right. But if you complain in general that the state has no business interfering with product warranties, a century of case law disagrees with you.
In closing, I will point to one of the most egregious cases in this regard. In 1937, the Massengill Company put on the market an antibiotic elixer for children composed of the drug sulfanilamide dissolved in diethylene glycol and flavoured with raspberry extract. Massengill never tested the product for safety. Diethylene glycol being a very nasty poison, 107, mostly children, died shortly thereafter from liver failure caused by this medicine. Massengill could not be sued under the laws at the time because, as the President of the company said,
The nation's response to this was to pass the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, which established the FDA and granted it sweeping powers to regulate the market to ensure that all food, drugs, and cosmetics were safe. Many conservative jurists, such as Richard Posner (one of Ronald Reagan's first appointments to the federal bench) promoted this expansion of tort law, noting that there is an imperfect market for information and that when information asymmetries are present, a free market does not optimally allocate resources (this observation won a Nobel prize in economics for Ackerlof, Stiglitz, and Spence). The thinking of the economics-and-law crowd was that expansion of strict liability would produce a corrective force for disclosure of information that would enhance the efficiency of markets.My Athlon's fan is starting to annoy me, what are all the other AMD users here using to keep their CPUs cool and quiet? Besides the power switch.
Why the hell are they doing this when the heatsinks they ship with Athlons are pieces of crap. I bought an Athlon and used the stock heatsink for about a month. Mind you, I didn't even overclock it and, according to the internal temperature sensors, it was running it at about 65-70 degrees (celsius)! The heat alarm would start to go off every time I'd play Warcraft III. I went to the computer store, and bought the cheapest heatsink/fan there, slapped it on there and it runs at least HALF of that.
However, on a lighter note, I don't see why the thermal pads (or whatever comes stuck to the AMD heatsinks) are any better. I could be wrong (and I most likely am), but I was under the impression that thermal grease, even cheap thermal grease, is better than the pads they put on those things.
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
Some locales have implied warranties for all products sold. They specify minimum periods of time the manufacturers must warrant their products. It is normally a limited warranty, that is designed to protect consumers by ensuring that a product does what the manufacturer claims. These implied warranties can not avoided, regardless of what the manufacturer claims.
i haven't had any problems with my 1.33, all im using is one of those Volcano II's, a couple of case fans, and a topside blowhole. Nothing fancy, just the stock fans that came with my Lian-Li.
there is a warranty for broken/melted cores because sometimes fans fail to cool, even during normal use. Trust me, if your proc ever dies, you'll be glad for that warranty
I'd like to second this; there is also another reason why I will never buy an OEM CPU again: From three different places, I recieved OEM CPU's that were 'raised', meaning that they had the original speed removed, and a higher speed stamped on.
I never overclock; but these CPU's were behaving horribly! One even (no kidding) overheated enough to melt (and seize) the heatsink fan into the heatsink... making things get even hotter. By the time I noticed anything was wrong (weird smell...), my motherboard was hot enough for several components came unsoldered and fell out when I removed the cover from the case! (Being quick of reflexes, but frequently slow of wits, I reached out to grab these scalding hot components...) Upon closer analysis, this CPU was found to have been 'raised'. To make matters worse, the place wouldn't refund/replace anything because "We don't warranty OEM CPU's for more than 7 days past the date of purchase" -- and what do you know-- it took 8 days after I purchased it for them to even ship it. (Thank you pricewatch!) Better Business Beaureau? Ha! They coudn't have cared less. And I didn't have money for a lawyer.
So you can imagine that I am actually pleased to hear that AMD is going to use anti-overclocking tech; I had no intention of ever overclocking, and yet because some shmuck broke a few laws and sold me a raised CPU, I had a horribly unstable PC that eventually melted itself.
I've long since decided that I will gladly pay the extra lettuce for the warranty, and to buy the CPU from a more expensive, but well-known retailer. I've offered to pay the price difference for friends who wanted to go with a cheaper OEM CPU (since I end up repairing it and/or taking the blame anyway...) There's also the fact that the 'retail' CPU's are packaged entirely differently, and at least the Athlon XP's I've looked at, have a different color to the die when compared with the OEM CPU's (greenish vs. brownish); I can go to CompUSA or even Amazon and feel confident that I am getting the CPU I paid for, and not some clock-raised fire hazard fraud from Skeeter's PC hut.
In fact, I'm much more confident of AMD honoring the warranty on a retail CPU that has thermal grease and a custom heatsink than I am of any PC builder honoring the non-existent warranty on an OEM CPU. And, considering my past experiences with OEM CPU's (I have three Athlon 1.4's that are utterly toasted; worth a pretty penny 18 months ago...) with them, I'm also much more confident that the OEM CPU will fail first. This is reasonable, as I have been through four OEM Athlon 1.4's, on three different motherboards; the longest one lasted was 6 months. But the Retail CPU has been ticking for several times longer than that, and still has given me no problems.
In fact my favored local system builder, who actually uses retail CPU's rather than the OEM's in their computers, still uses custom heat-sinks and thermal paste.
And seriously -- I have a quiet power supply; Enermax is known for this, and I paid for the silence...
And yet the enermax PSU still covers up AMD's heatsink fan completely; button up the case and the only thing you're hearing is the PSU and 2 Enermax intake fans.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
THis is a shameless plug, but still on topic: I have 23 AMD heatsinks + fans for sale, without the processors. Anyone interested contact me...
Non-Linux Penguins ?
where were you when i was building my system? that advice really could have come in handy
My homebuilt 2200+ box's got thermal grease on the CPU. Who else is it too late for? I wonder if this measure is retroactive...
Overclocking voids the warranty too and non retail box chips (OEM) have no warranty either. Taking that into consideration how many of us are actually covered? Be honest.
I know I'm going to hell, I'm just trying to get good seats.
I think this article may be full of it. Most AMD resellers have a complete list of AMD approved heat sync / fans.
u ct s/0,,30_177_6798_8903,00.html
Here is just a sample off of AMDs web site...
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/SellAMDProd
Thanks for the tip... I just bought one of those for my Athlon-now-I'll-void-my-warranty-1400. Personally, I think that perhaps they should have an approved list of heatsinks and paste. AFter all, some 3rd party heatsinks are total crap, but many are better than the block-o-aluminum that AMD gives you. On the other hand, I'm sure that you can void your Apple warranty by replacing the monster heat sinks on those.
I'm pretty okay with a car company saying that if you overhauled your car, it's your responsibility to deal with it if it breaks. Even if you were responsible, proving so would require them to go through each of your dozen amateurish modifications to find and prove which one caused the problem, which raises the cost for the rest of us.
Now granted, there's some reasonable middle between "can't touch it without voiding the warranty" and "manufacturer has to honor the warranty even if you turned your car into a rice rocket," but I certainly oppose the latter.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I have the standard fan and a 2100. For the first couple of months after put it in in December it ran fine. However in the recent rush of warm weather when I do anything that puts a heavy load of the CPU, e.g. compiling stuff or playing games the temp quickly goes above 80 degrees and the computer crashes. The only way to stop this atm is to lower the frequency from 133 to 100, so I'm effectively running a 1500 instead of a 2100. I'm going to have to put some other fan/heatsink combo in there. Otherwise by summer I'll be able to roast marshmallows over the top of my case.
If you OC ur warr is already void (technically) so who cares, I like a huge percent of AMD owners am OC'ing my amd proc's... If I burn one I'll just go out and get another one for $60 I would be pissed about this if I was buying a $$$ Barton 2800XP or higher, but heck for $59 my Tbred B 1800XP is kicking butt @ 1.8Ghz (going to O/C higher soon...need better RAM). Honestly I don't give a damn about their warranty even if I burn this 1800XP ... I'll just go buy another one, for $60 I can afford to kill a couple of em' (which I have yet to do to even one...)
I still think it is a stupid move because the 'Pump-Out' only seems to occur at temp cycles of 0-100C or higher... but if your proc is at 100C your pretty much toast already?
What would suck is buying an OEM proc, which is DOA, and then not being able to return it cause you have used AS3? But I have yet to hear a case of a DOA return being denied for this reason?
Anyway I'd just like to say this not withstanding AMD ownz, for less than the cost of a
2.0 P4, I got an 1800XP and Soltek SL-75FRN-RL (nf2) motherboard. And even with the craptastic DDR 2100 I'm running right now it is kicking butt.
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
While this is interesing anyone notice how long the average CPU warranty is? I think most are around 90 days from the manufacturer. Your PC shop may give you longer but the actual hardware maker itself doesn't give you shit. So what are the odds of a fan dieing in 90 days anyway unless there's a serious defect to beging with. Also I think Intel says the same thing, certain modifications not approved by them will void your warranty.
Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
Compared to that, AMD's decision seems quite reasonable. Not that I like it, but I understand it. They notice that many of their chips go to replace processors destroyed by some overanxious 0verclockerz who claim "the chip was fried when it got here." Basically, this is an official excuse to deny them a warranty replacement (since it's hard to do an autopsy on a dead processor).
I think what they're hoping for is that people just stop trying to invoke their warranties and sheepishly buy one of their newer and better chips as a replacement.
what if i cool my cpu with liquid directly onto the core........ :)
no voided warrenteeeeeeeeeeeee for me
Seems to me that the best compromise for AMD would be to have a list of 'AMD approved' heatsinks and greases, from which you could choose freely without voiding the warranty.
Is it just me or anyone else has found the Xtreme Tek site suspicious to the point of intolerability?
Their name is probably a play on the well-known ExtremeTech. After seeing a huge banner featuring a scantily-clad girl in a horizontal position, I closed the window without waiting for download to finish. Thank you, but my standards of acceptance typically require a bit more ingenuity.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
Friend of mine goes to Fry's Electronics a glorified West Coast Radio Shack for computer folks for present day. Anyway, he always buys their $5.00 warranty and has so far burned 3 AMD's because of his own stupidity, no thermal compound, forgot to attach heatsink, and cracked the core. Each time they replaced it no questions. Im sure they send it back to AMD.
So how long before AMD's policy alters their in store $5.00 policy?
Yes, it did specifically mention (a) thermal grease, which if used would void the warranty.
But whilst it mentioned that using a HSF other than that supplied might void your warranty, as I understand it, it says that it would *if* used to overclock the processor.
If that is correct, then it might be better to have not said anything about HSFs, as it appears to cause confusion - overclocking your processor will void your warranty, stock HSF or not.
As for the thermal grease, I can partly understand where they come from - why should they 'allow' you to use a grease that can damage the processor if applied incorrectly? Any damage that would cause is your responsibility, not theirs.
However, they do have their argument a little back to front. They don't want us to use high-performance components, because it allows for overclocking? But it can only allow for overclocking, by improving cooling efficiency - something that would *benefit* the life of the CPU, even when run at stock speed... particularly in a heatwave!
When I built my Athlon systems, AMD supplied some
kind of thermal grease with the boxed CPUs! I
chose to use Arctic Alumina instead, which is
ceramic. No problems, so far (about a year).
Yes, ok, AMD are trying to save a few dollars here and there, is that so bad? How much did you save on your last AMD CPU compared to an intel?
I'm sure AMD is swamped with indirect customer returns due to badly installed heatsinks, squashed dies and fried CPU's most of which could probably be avoided by a policy like this. Thus saving AMD money, and probably YOU money.
I would have prefered that had compiled a recommended list of heatsink/fans which they would accept as warranty compatible.
I'm sure I break at least 2 warranties on various products everyday! Every company does it, it protects their product from a bad reputation due to faulty third party products.
Anyway, enough of my ranting, I still love ya AMD, tho' I aint using your stinkin' heatsinks.
Uhm, boxes of latex gloves are dirt cheap and you :^)
can also use them for refilling ink cartridges,
or committing crimes (I guess).
Seriously, after the research I did when building
some Athlon systems last fall, the wax pads are
NOT the way to go. Weighing all the options I
went with Arctic Alumina (ceramic material) from
Artic Silver. Dirt cheap (shop around), and no
regrets.
Those of you who have been to Scotland, particularly Skye or Ullapool (two areas that are particularly bad) will doubtless have encountered the infamous Highland Midgie. These fearsome beasties are about 2mm long and look harmless enough, but appear to be equipped with diamond-tipped drills on their teeth. The only thing that stops them (and isn't horribly carcinogenic or a respiratory irritant, and doesn't strip paint off things you walk past) is Skin-So-Soft. There's a huge stand of it in my local agricultural store, fishing boats buy it in gallon buckets, and you'll always find a tube tucked away somewhere in builders' vans and tractor cabs...
Uhm, just because you use a thermal product and
better (ie, 3rd party) heatsink/fan combo does
NOT mean you are overclocking. I used those
things with my boxed Athlons, and I've never
overclocked. I just want a cool (temperature
wise) system.
I highly doubt that California's involvement in business practices has greatly added to a $30 billion deficit.
Besides, governments often have to play a crucial role as watch dog to regulate businesses, such as Enron. Wasn't it deregulation of the power industry in California that has contributed to such a great deficit?
My bad. AMD included a tape or wax type thingy,
not thermal grease. Hey, its late...
especially since wd40 may have implications for your
a ct ion=list_products&category=2
. cgi?act ion=list_products&category=15
electic flows if not applies sparingly, plus its a very very crouchy substance that may suck itself into your cpu socket pins for capilary effects.
KEEP WD 40 AWAY...
do what i do - go over to chemtonics an order some electrowash CZ.
its a mixture of
1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroe-thane(811-97-2) Cirozane (mixture), Carbinol(67,56,1)
http://www.chemtronics.com/catalog/catalog.cgi?
warning on the side: this stuff is health hazardous an will degrease about anything,
including hands and eyes.
its e.g. used by sun microsystems, sgi and others.
you can use either kimwipes (Kimberly-Clark) or some of chemtronics stuff
http://www.chemtronics.com/catalog/catalog
for the wiping off, other than q-tips or cotton,
they are ANTI-STATIC and LINTFREE.
the other approach suggests a pighair brush.
Well, If the chip isn't fried, it is made of glass... just drop it and say the "ups/fedex guy musta broke it" If they paid the extra $X to insure then a simple phone call explaining that "well it's made out of glass, and it broke in shipping, and it was insured..." and you've got a replacement cpu for $0 -- as long as it hasn't been that long since you got it.
http://www1.zkm.de/%7Ewvdc/ascii/java/ Another type of ascii movies !
..wasn't sure...
Government imposed quality regulations only hurt the industry.
Thats not always the case. I don't think you'd find too many people that would bash the FDA and the FCC for making sure that you can buy food thats not poisoned and drive from New York to California without having to change radios because of different broadcast standards.
They make it so companies don't want to improve quality, they make the barrier to entry lower for quality, and they put companies who've built a good names for themselves on the same level as some new startup who just happens to meet the minimums.
How is the enforcement of warranties a disinsentive to improving quality? Haven't you ever seen a car ad that totes its ratings on government saftey tests?
Note to consumers, don't be an idiot, do some research on the product you buy before you buy it.
That assumes that you have plenty of choices to choose from. But what if you don't have a choice? Look at the hard drive manufacuters that want to drop drive warranties to a year. If they all did it, how could you take your money somewhere else?
And having plenty of choices can be a bad thing in the grand scheme of things. Look at HDTV standards: last time I checked there were about 40. Few consumers are willing to purchase such sets because they don't want to spend $2,000 (for a cheap one) only to have it cease working when a different standard becomes available. Constrast that to if they FCC had dictated a standard 10 years ago. Manufacturers could have rolled out HDTV years ago and consumers wouldn't have been afraid to buy them. In cases like that, regulation's better for consumers and industry.
I bought a couple before, they worked fine. After of course some heatsink tweaking to stop it crashing all the time. Then I found this statement somewhere:
"Be very careful if you want to install AMD CPU's yourself, because the AMD warranty policy became very severe. Guidelines from AMD: '' NO warranty on mechanical damage of the CPU like bent or broken pins, cracked dies or packages. NO warranty on manipulated CPU's by e.g. overclocking. No warranty on overheating e.g. caused by use of non-recommended (www1.amd.com/athlon/config) or improperly mounted coolers (www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon/pdf/23986.pdf). or by overclocking or use of core voltage different from the datasheet. You can recognize overheating by e.g. brown spots on bottom side of the CPU, different colors on the chip surface, destroyed support pads, head conducting pastes spread all over the package. Especially no warranty for findings like: open/short at Vcc- or I/O pins, Micro Cracks (invisible cracks), when part is fully functional. ''"
Why is their warranty very severe? And why are they backing off thermal grease and non approved heatsinks? Because they have a severe overheating problem, and their design is certainly not rugged enough to bear any type of slip or mistake. With some investigation I realise that most of my friends with AMDs have overheating problems, one running 10 fans in the case to get it 55 degrees.
You get what you pay for, and AMD is cheap. Their stock heatsinks are crap, and some of the design decisions they've taken are flawed. Ho hum.
Its sad, but next one for me is a intel. At least it might still be running on a sunny day, rather than setting fire to the house...
Toothpaste was actually better at transferring the heat than arctic silver. (Not that toothpaste would be a good solution in the long run :))
Wow. You totally kicked cheezedawg's ass! That was cool.
"It's Dot Com!"
Seems to me this is analagous to an auto manufacture trying to void your warranty for using, say, a FRAM oil filter instead of an OEM. This seems like an especially dumb policy in the instance of a fan that meets or exceeds AMD's own specs, or is "AMD recommended". If they recommend it, how can they say it is unacceptable to use!?!
I don't think this policy won't last long... all it will take are a couple of irate customers.
-A
Presumably, the reseller tried it the AMD way and found itself getting too many burned up chips back.
So they require phase change pads and stock fans?
Sounds like they're more interested in selling replacement CPUs than making customers happy. Maybe they've got an Intel mole who comes up with bright ideas like this.
Too bad VIA floating point performance isn't that hot... because their chips don't require a whole lot in the way of cooling. Yes, suspecting that there's a relationship between these two facts has occurred to me.
If I'd been buying for a server, I would have bought the VIA chip. I went with the Duron because I do graphics on this thing once in a while and big bitmaps run. . . slowly.
Tech Public Policy stuff
I wonder if Shin Etsu G-751 would be an acceptable grease, beeing it is from the same company as the recomended by the article (I can only assume this is true, because the editor said so..right guys?....guys?), and is also non-metallic.
The reason I care is because this particular grease is (again) non-metallic, outperforms Arctic silver 3, is non conductive, etc.
If you dont believe me (so many people dont seem to), here is a LINK to a review of thermal compounds, and the shin-etsu comes out on top.
HERE and HERE are places to buy it, i looked since it seems to be kind of hard to find.
Either way, it would be nice, despite the fact that any overclocking, using non stock heatsinks, tinkering of almost any kind..all void your warranty. People RMA stuff after they fry it OCing anyways, been done before, will keep beeing done in the future.
It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
if you do what they suggest it will just get noisier and noiser until it breaks. Which is what mine is doing now as I steadily go deaf from my underclocked AMD Cpu using AMD fan... Wooo Athlon 1600+ running at less than normal bus speed at 1.1Ghz just to stop it crashing..
I fitted a Zalman heatsink (QuietPC.com) to my Athlon, it came with quite a lot of thermal paste preapplied, so I wondered if I should take some off, since I agree with your point about not using too much. I chickened out and convinced myself I'd done the right thing by not wiping any away on the grounds that as long as the paste could flow, the stupidly high pressure applied when mounting should squeeze most of it out
According to libsensors, it runs at 57C idle (with ambient inside the case at 33C), rising to 70C at full load (encoding stuff). Since the chip dissipates 72W, that doesn't sound too bad, albeit it still seems a bit on the high side. Did I do wrong? I dunno.
Were these the words burnt into this man's mind before it began?
Oh, the humanity!
You're absolutely right. Even some of the most powerful heatsinks on the market have trouble cooling Athlons without heat transfer compound. If AMD expects us not to use good thermal grease like Arctic Silver, they'd better back up their with one hell of a cooler to make up for it.
"In a surprising turn of events, this article over at Xtreme Tek explains that the official stance from AMD is that you will void your warranty if you use any thermal grease or if you're not using the heatsink provided with your CPU."
What I don't fully understand is the gripe about those who buy in the retail box who have fans that are inadquate and need replacement? Doesn't it say "heatsink" not fan? Now I don't know about anyone else in here, but can't you just replace the fan with a series of 4 screws?
While yes, they make BETTER syncs, users who's fan has failed on the stock heat sync, who have no complaints about the present heat sync, provided their replacement fan is within the same size, speed, and airflow specifications don't have anything to worry about (in theory).
Personaly, I find it "much" easier removing 4 sheetmetal screws then dealing with the cpu clip anyday!
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
It's too bad that AMD has taken this stance with their warranties. Comparatively speaking, there can't be that many people who go nuts with the thermal grease and heat sinks, and even less so the number of people who actually mess up their CPUs.
For customer relations' sake, it seems that their move was imprudent. Had they just decided to quietly replace a few CPUs and not make a fuss, they would have looked better as a "corporate citizen."
They may be saving a few dollars down the road but the bad will that their move generated may have repercussions later. Slashdotters, are you mad enough to actually switch to another vendor?
Don't have a Zalman, but my Athlon 1600 runs between 42C (idle) up to around 55C (after a couple hours of UT2K3). For *my* machine, 57C idle would be quite high.
You don't mention which model Athlon you're using, however. I'd imagine the faster you go, the higher the "acceptable" temperature range goes, up to a point.
Just be careful picking it out, because some of them *don't* use acetone now.
These: Sai Baba Anti-these: Wahrheit (und Treue zum Dienen) Synthese: ? (Wahrheit um der Wahrheit willen suchen und offenbaren. Bedingungslos der GÖTTLICHKEIT im anderen und sich selbst dienen). ES IST ! Transzformationsstrahl ES IST ! FIS JOKER *** Diese Einschübe gebem dem Göttlichen in mir Raum. "Transzformationsstrahl ES IST ! " bildet ein Geistigen Gefäß in das die Göttliche Absicht hineinprojeziert wird. Ich schalte mich gleich mit der Göttlichen Absicht, bilde also einen Kelch und empfange bedingungslos was das Göttliche dort hineinlegen will. Das Schreiben bewirkt den RHYTMUS, das ich dies instinktiv IMMER AUTOMATISCH tue wenn ich/jemand dieses Transzformationsstrahl ES IST liest. ES IST ! Transzformationsstrahl ES IST ! FIS JOKER *** FIS ist der "Geheime Name" Eines Elohimprogrammes das für die Bildung der konkreten ERfahrungsebenen in der persönlichen Subjektivität der Menschheit zuständig ist. Mit "FIS" wird also ein persönliches ERfahrungspotenzial hervorgerufen. JOKER ist der Name eines Weiteren Elohimprogrammes, das diese Erfahrungspoltenziale vitalisiert und damit subjektiv erfahrbar macht und freisetzt. ES IST ! Transzformationsstrahl ES IST ! Alles Liebe Vywamus Ramana Simhanada FIS JOKER ***
Für bewußte Geistfunken ist es die Hölle in einem Schwarzen Kubus zu sein.
Nur durch eine Große Entsagung/Kreuzigung kann sich ein Geistfunke von sich aus, aus einem Schwarzen Kubus befreien.
Wenn Intelligenz auf einen Schwarzen Kubus projeziert wird, entwickelt dieser Schwarze Kubus ein Eigenbewußtsein das sich dann immer Kryon/KREISCHTON nennt.
Das Magnetische Gitter zu programmieren, ist das was man den Freien Willen der Menschheit nennt.
NUR das Gruppenbewußtsein der Menschheit kann und darf das Magnetfeld der Erde programmieren.
Um das konstruktiv zu tun müssen POSITIVE GEFÜHLE wie Liebe Freude Frieden etc. erzeugt werden.
Anders gesagt das Magnetfeld der Erde spiegelt IMMER den Gesamtgefühlszustand der Menschen wider.
Nun die Menschheit wollte in die Einheit hat dies "occult-technisch" aber völlig falsch angegangen. So wurde durch den starken Wunsch nach Einheit dann eben teilweise das Magnetfeld DURCH Kreischton von der Menschheit programmiert.
Kreischton/"Kryon" ist also ein ELEMENTAL das von der Menschheit erschaffen wurde und die innere Kraft stammt TATsächlich von der Zentralsonne, weil nämlich DIE MENSCHHEIT von der Zentralsonne stammt...
In Göttlicher Ordnung
Sanat Kumara
(Simhanada)
Geschrieben von Sananda am 13. Juli 2002 23:10:15:
.
1.
Stelle mir einfach konkrete Fragen dann kann ich dich da abholen wo du stehst !
Konkrete Fragen, kann ich gar nicht stellen, da ich praktisch kaum verstehe, was du da schreibst.
1)
Aber erzähle mal, was die Quelle deines Wissens ist. Ich meine Elemente der vedischen Lehre wiederzuerkennen, aber wohl auch nicht ausschließlich, habe aber davon eigentlich keine Ahnung.
2)
Meine Freundin hat den 3-teiler von Armin Risi gelesen, daher hab ich davon gehört, aber mehr auch nicht.
3)
Wenn du ausschließlich Kanäle öffnen wolltest, dann ist mein Einwurf, dass das wohl kaum einer versteht wohl nicht mehr so wichtig.
Das was danach kommt, kann und will ich nicht werten, kenne weder dich noch die Texte.
P.S. Woher kommt dein Name?
Welchen Hintergrund hat er, warum hast du ihn gewählt?
4)
Liebe Elite
Ich habe mal vier Punkte zusammengestellt ES IST !
Transzformationsstrahl ES IST !
zu 1)
Dann frage danach WAS du nicht verstehst oder frage nach Begriffen die dich interessieren und erleutere was du davon verstanden hast !
Damit ist eine geistige Norm für dich und für mich fixiert und auch die anderen können dann den ANfangspunkt der Disskusion nachvollziehen wodurch Mißverständnisse vermieden werden die darauf beruhen das man über die selben Begriffe spricht aber jeder was anderes unter den Begriffen versteht erfasst oder begreift !
Das ist vor allem bei Dem Thema zu Jesus Christus SOOO wichtig da Jesus Christus MULTIDIMENSIONALIÄT gezündet hat !
Damit muß man sich klar sein das JEDER sein eigenes Bild von Jesus Christus hat sowie das es VIELE Jesus Christusse gibt !
Jesus Christus hat eine BEWUSSTSEINSnorm verkörpert !
ES IST ! Somit das Recht jeder Seele die diese Norm ERreicht sich Jesus Christus zu nennen !
Christus IST zuerst ein KOLLEKTIVES Symbol !
Somit ist das was Christus auszeichnet ein VERWIRKLICHUNGSZUSTAND und nichts persönliches !
Die Persönliche Verwirklichung gehört zum Heiligen Geist und der Heiligen Geistnatur=Buddhanatur in jedem Menschen ! ES IST !
Der innere Buddha ist der personifizierte Heilige Geist während der Heilige Geist GRUPPENBEWUSSTHEIT IST !
ES IST !
Transzformationsstrahl ! ES IST !
2)
Nun ich habe im Subjektiven den ANfangskontext der Lehren der Brücke zur Freiheit oder in den ANfangsbüchern von Godfre Ray Kind:
Die 33 Reden über das Ich bin !
ES IST !
Transzformationsstrahl ! ES IST !
Dies sind SUBJEKTIVE Lehren
Das heißt sie sind sehr gut geeignet eine spirituellen WEG zu GEHEN !
Aber sie sind NICHT gut geeignet um zu sie als philosofische Plattform zu benutzten weil sie PRAKTISCH sind und SUBJEKTIVE Realitäten beschreiben !
Und dort wird NICHT beschrieben wie man das subjektive Objektivieren kann, sprich in sinnvolle Begriffe zu kleiden die man äußerlich zu ANderen Subjektiven Realitäten (Glaubenssystemen) kommunizieren kann !
Für diesen Zweck der Begrifflichen Kommunikation studiere ich seit meiner inneren Durchbruch ("Aufstieg") Ende Oktober 1998 die Alice A. Bailey Bücher die GERADE als geistig Begriffliche Norm gegeben wurden ! ES IST !
Transzformationsstrahl ! ES IST !
ANsonsten meditiere ich sehr viel und bekomme mein Wissen AUSSSCHLIESSLICH REIN INNERLICH ! ES IST !
Ich lese Bücher NUR um Begriffe für subjektive ERfahrungen bilden zu können !
Und da sind die Alice A. Bailey Bücher für mich die optimale Norm !
Aber ich lese ALLE Heiligen Schriften soweit sie mir "zufällig" aus dem Leben heraus begegnen.
Die Bücher von Solara sind für ABSOLUT Zentral
Und das Buch des Wissens die Schlüssel des Enoch sind meines ERachtens die aktuell gültige Lehre.
Die Schlüssel des Enoch von JJ Hurtak sind vollst
What you want to do is apply a thin bead of grease to one end of the CPU die, and spread it thinly across using a credit card or other device (driver's license, heavy piece of paper, etc).
I used my AMD warranty registration card before I sent it in.
Sun Blades for home systems!
I did and I never had any problems whatsoever. One time one of the technicians cracked the die by accident, but since the damage was not too apparent I got new cpu in 48 hours.
Of course this was on reseller level, but since most cpu's were boxed (we get all higher end cpu's boxed for extended warranty) I dont think there would be much difference for the end user
That ships thousands of faulty fans in their Retail boxes, so now there's no way to avoid their slip-ups (well, you COULD pay for an Intel, but..)
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
Interesting news. This gives me yet another reason to buy a pre tested bare bones setup next time I decide to upgrade. Or even go as far as to have the system completely built and ran through the a burn-in cycle. You don't have to sacrifice getting a custom built system either. I've found several custom builders online who provide a wide range of high quality components such as Lian-Li cases and Asus motherboards. I haven't yet reached the point of laziness that I'd be willing to buy a pot luck system from Best Buy. Allthough with PC prices as low as they are, and with CPU speeds and RAM doubling every year, it is sometimes tempting to go with a Dell.
The point (obviously?) being if CPU manufacturers are going to be so stringent with their products, then I may be better off letting resellers deal with the manufacturer so I will just have to deal with the reseller. That may very well be what AMD wants to achieve in the first place.
http://www.peepresearch.org/solubility/acetone.htm l
Death to Argument by Slogan!! (This post twice-encrypted with ROT-13. Replies not using same will be ignored)
Look here for CPU info Mine is a 1400 MHz Thunderbird, 133 MHz FSB so I'd expect it to be hot, but your 1600 MHz takes about teh same amount of power, so my heatsinking isn't as efficient. (I don't have the flower cooler, but the cheaper ducted quiet fan thingy - maybe it isn't a Zlaman after all, but I recall it came from QuietPC) OTOH, I do have a 20C to 25C margin of error remaining, so AMD expect this puppy to cook!
I am a single guy, no girlfriend, no fingernail polish remover anywhere nearby. Opposed to this, I walk to my garage and get my can(s) of WD40. Point in case. You might live in a city and therefore have no garage, but I'm sure you've had problems with squeaky doors.
EITHER WAY, USE WHAT YOU WANT to use. I'm not forcing you to use WD40, it just works for me. It's easy to clean off. It has not impaired any of my CPUS. Part B. I know what I'm doing. Part C, I don't feel like buying fingernail polish remover when I have the necessary tools AT hand. (40 or so footsteps away). Why waste 2 gallons of gas getting to a CVS or some other drug store when I got my thermal goo removing materials right nearby?
THAT is what I was saying. Thank you for your time.
-Daedalus
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
spread it thinly across using a credit card
Spreading the grease is a bad idea. It puts ridges and valleys in the grease. When the parts are mated, the trapped air pockets create voids. Not a good idea. Always put a small dab in the center of the die and set the heatsink on it. Apply pressure and lock into place. The blob flattens out forcing all air out ahead of the grease. This prevents hotspots that lead to die failure. Don't remove the heatsink to inspect it. If you ever remove the heatsink, completely clean it and start over. You don't want air pockets in the grease.
The truth shall set you free!
...puts the burden of proof on AMD to prove that your upgrade was what caused the processor to die. I suspect they know this, and I also suspect if you raise enough of a ruckus you can get your processor replaced, as it's not worth going to court over. They're probably just betting most folks won't raise much cain about it.
I've been using AMD CPUs for years. Never had one fail.
Technically speaking, most people using Arctic Silver are probably voiding their warranty in other ways as well (non-approved heatsinks, overclocking, XP->MP mods, etc.). So why all the fuss about thermal compound all of a sudden?
How many people know someone who has had an RMA on a CPU refused for the explicit reason that they used the "wrong" thermal compound? I sure don't know anyone.
Go ahead and keep using your "unapproved" thermal compound and heatsinks -- I certainly plan to. And in the (IMO very unlikely) event that you do need to RMA the CPU, chances are excellent there won't be a problem anyway.
Solvents are generally categorized into polar and non-polar solvents (water being a good example of the former, and benzene a good example of the latter).
It all has to do with the kind of substances you are trying to mix, or put into solution (polar, ionic, covalently-bonded, etc), and your solvent of choice... oil and water do not mix because water is unable to adequately penetrate and dissolve the long, largely non-polar hydrocarbon chains that make up most oils (the oil is more attracted to itself than it is to the water). you are correct that oil and water don't mix, and polarity is the reason. The best you could hope for would be some kind of suspension.
Emulsifiers can create the appearance of solubility... but that's another lecture.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Another plus point in it's favour is that it's very easy/cheap to get hold on - it's what liquid fueled cigarette lighters run on. If you're feeling sneaky you can use it to make envelopes 'invisible' before it evaporates leaving no trace.
Well, the toothpaste would probably dry out and fail after a few months, so I wouldn't recommend it. (I agree with your contention that the brand of goop doesn't matter, though!)
I'm intrigued by your TIM comments. I've avoided TIMs because older CPUs didn't really have a lot of pressure on the pad. With the new XPs and P4s, maybe it's time to rethink that.
Got any links that demonstrate similar OCability or better temps with TIMs versus goop?
I imagine (imagine, not "know"!) it being "easier" to trap a bubble of air between a largish TIM like the one used on the P4, and the heatsink. Yeah, it can happen with goop too, but if you get crappy temperatures, it's easier to fix with goop.
Anyways - has anyone found a difference between goop and TIM in terms of cooling performance (i.e. overclockability), over a large enough sample, to say that maybe it really *is* time for all us 31337 d00dz to give that gummy pad a second chance?
What is thermal grease? Doesn it run Linux?
Hate that thermal-pad s**t... doesn't give you much space for error if you mess things up attaching the heatsink, like I did.
Call me a sceptic, but isn't this very convenient for them if you mess up the pad and have to reattach the heatsink with something else?
BTW, for what it's worth, I did that to my Pentium 4; not only does it work fine with the cheapo grease I bought after panic-rushing into town, but more significantly, it runs even with a noticable *kink* at one side (and yeah, I was responsible when I almost squashed it with the heatsink in the first place).
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
LISTEN UP!!!
The e-mail sent to Xtreme Tek was NOT an official statement from AMD.
I repeat:
The e-mail sent to Xtreme Tek was NOT an official statement from AMD.
That e-mail was sent from Steve Knauber, who has no rights to release an official statement!
STOP SAYING that AMD put out this statement.
I am supprised at how weak some people are.
It is correct that NO THERMAL GREASE is recommended.
This it due to particles in the grease that can cause malfunctions, whether electrical, or mechanical.
Does that mean Greases void your warrenty?
NO!!!!!!
It means that they are not recommeneded for permenent installations.
AS STATED IN THE E-MAIL!
Phase change substanced such as, but NOT limited to Shin Etsu G 749, are better than greases for long term installation.
Phase change turns to a liquid once heated and will fill in the spaces between the die and heatsink.
Once installed and heated the phasechange will not cause wear to the die, will not pumpout due to vibrations from the CPU fan.
BUT STOP SAYING THAT AMD HAS RELEASED THIS AS AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT IS JUST PURE STUPIDITY.
It's easy getting AS II or III off of the CPU die, but what about getting it off of the wafer. Sometimes, as I try to smooth out the goop to get a thin smooth layer it falls of the edge. I use something my pocket knife to get it off, but still, I might bump it on the ceramic and get some on the sides. I can take the AS off the ceramic wafer, but it leaves a stain that I cannot get off. I use detergent, rubbing alcohol, and nail polish remover. What will get it off?? Maybe WD-40??
I humbly request that this article be filed as both. Ask Slashdot "How to remove your unapproved heatsink grease when returning 'Defective' CPU's" and AMD "AMD: No Grease For You
here is an article on overclockers.com talking about this besides are tehy really gona know if you used a diffrent fan?
http://www.overclockers.com/tips00357/
There have been cases where software bugs in medical equipment killed people. In those cases, there would be strong precedent for product liability lawsuits.
Suppliers to the military are harder to sue, which is probably good news to the folks whose bugs killed soldiers when their mortar targeting software made incorrect assumptions about target altitude or when a Patriot missile targeting system's clock overflowed after 8 hours.
For further reading on software liability issues, see this Business Week article, which was discussed on /. and badsoftware.com, which surveys software liability issues from a consumer's perspective.
AMD put out notes about not using thermal grease on the newer processors to shops and distributors months ago. The document goes on to give what sounded like a reasonable explanation of what happens to thermal grease and how it gets pumped out over time by the heat.
Suprised me when I saw it, but its old old news
... is going to point out the obvious pun?
Anyways, we decided to return the cpu, covered in grease, back to the local fry's
So you got a greasy chip in your fries?
Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
Distilled water. The cheap white paste stuff does dry out, and leaves you a lumpy surface that you need to clean off if you want to switch heatsinks. But distilled water and paper towels and air drying have always worked fine for me (or spit-wipe-blow if i'm in a hurry!).
Pure H20 is also great for dissolving out coffee and soda in keyboard guts, too. For really bad messes, you can soak and rinse--it's the best way to thoroughly de-soda circuit boards, for example. (Obviously, dissasemble first!) No mess, no fumes, no grease, no residue. Just make sure everything's dry before you reassemble--let dry overnight, turn over, repeat. Use a hair dryer to speed things up or to make doubly sure. WD40 any mechanical bits.
"This is not a sig." -- R.
It seems like AMD is only saying if for some reason your running your computer in fairly highstress environments (or highstress use) unless use AMD ThermalGo and AMD Heatsink they cant garantee validity of your claims. This is reasonable it'd be the same from apple if you built your own computer and passed it off as thiers.
I'm really sick of hearing the toothpaste is better bs. If it's not good in the long run then there is no point. If the length of time the protection lasts didn't matter than I'm sure I could cool it much better than anything else out there but it would only live for 1 minute or so.
Use one of those really soft mechanical erasers. Takes the stuff off perfectly.
I've found the OEM fans included with AMD's retail chips are lousy. They spin at 5000RPM making them noisy and tend to get noiser over time and fail.
I much prefer a larger 80mm fan spinning at 2500rpm to cool my processor.
What is this supposed to mean? They are Frickin' Grease Nazis?
Sign-ima-ture
If you open your mind too wide, people will throw trash in it.
If it breaks, you go to THEM to get it fixed/replaced, not to AMD.
When you've got an engineering sample CPU that you got from the company? There's no warranty on that!
Shin Estu is the brand of "grease" that Honda Dealers use to fix sticking minivan doors on the Odyssey.
So it must be good stuff - if you swap CPU's a lot, you should lube the pins with this stuff too!
Sandpaper is a bad idea, the bottom of the heatsink is machined to be almost perfectly flat, though sometimes slightly concave or convex depending upon the CPU it's for. Using an abrasive will change the shape and make thermal transfer less efficiant. If you have a heatsink with larger than microscopic grooves, mount it on your forehead, it'll keep you cool in the summer.
What's the problem with that? They're designed to run there. If it's actually unstable, then it's up to AMD to replace, if you're using the default heatsink and fan.
If you just want it to run cooler, then why is 105 OK? Why not mount some stacked peltiers and go for 50F? It's gotta be better, right?
"(ps: the above was an attempt at humor)"
status: failure
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
Being one who has always bought OEM and never had (too) much of a problem with OEM hardware, this doesn't bother me too much. In short, if you go the extra distance and pay the extra money for a retail CPU, you are being told basically "use this fan/heatsink combo, 'cause it does what we want it to do and meets the (minimum) standards we set for our product."
Not too much of a concern for most people who build custom boxes for home personal use - You get a computer that you want, so you upgrade the crap out of it.
At most, I feel that this is more of a problem for companies like Alien Ware or Zenatek. The ones that have the most to lose because they use AMD products in their products (custom comptuers).
IANAL, but Hey, I'm also in CA, which protects my butt too.
blah
I don't recall AMD processors COMING with a warantee registration card.
From the retail boxed AMD CPU Limited Warranty...
"This limited warranty does not cover damages due to external causes, including improper use, problems with electrical power, accident, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing
This Limited Warranty shall be null and void if the AMD microprocessor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty is used with any heatsink/fan other than the one provided herewith."
Since the provided heatsink/fan includes a thermal pad and AMD instructions say that a recommended TIM must be used and ONLY PHASE CHANGE PADS are on the recommended TIM list, using a thermal grease would be considered improper installation and WILL VOID THE WARRANTY.
If you're installing your own HSF you're pretty likely to fuck it up. If you do it's not AMD's fault and they don't want to have to rise prices because a few ididots keep melting their chips trying to install a coller to OC it. As much as everyone hates to admit it, a 3rd party HSF isn't necessary (if you want it istall at own risk).
It's funny - laugh
They do sell spray cans of crap you can blow that stuff off with, you know. Go to an electrical technician's store. Give your whole board a good cleaning.
"Has [being a kidnapped teenage girl, raped repeatedly for months] changed you?" - Katie Couric to Elizabeth Smart
I'm going to have to disagree with this. First off, let's remember that thermal greases and pastes are malleable. Even if the spreading of the grease causes some hills and valleys, the ridges will flatten down into the valleys when the heatsink is applied. If you end up with trapped air pockets between the cpu and the sink after applying grease, you've got a problem -- your grease is stiff to the point where it won't flatten out (buy newer/better compound), you didn't apply enough grease (applying too much is just as bad, but for different reasons), or your sink doesn't have enough pressure to create good contact with the CPU die whether or not you have grease in place.
The point of pre-spreading the grease is to make sure that you have enough to cover the die with a thin film, and not too much. If you just put a small blob on the die and let the heatsink spread it via pressure, you're either going to end up with way too much grease or not enough. If you don't check how the grease spread, you're not going to know whether you got sufficient application without overdoing it. But as you mentioned, checking means cleaning it up and doing it over again so that you get into a cycle where you basically practice several times until you're sure you know exactly how much grease you need to drop to ensure proper application. That seems like a waste of time and grease (and money, if you use the more expensive compounds).
I used the required fan, and it is LOUD AS HELL. I need an extra inch or two of Dynamat(R) before I would put this in my case.
I got this sig off of KaZaA this morning
"'Till then, you're still wrong unless you can find me evidence of cheaper Athlons, preferrably from reputable dealers, and from the same store, which you haven't done in even the slightest way."
That would be cheaper Pentiums, of course.
unless you want your girlfriend to get pregnant.. WD-40 can do ANYTHING.
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
obivously not :P
YOU SUCK BALLS!
_____________
[*] Although with CPU die sizes and increasing power consumption, your typical high end desktop CPU might be considered "extreme".
[1] Yes, I know, "the source", ydadda yadda blah blah... I read the instructions long before, and I remembered the WD-40 warnings, I should have double checked before I meta-moderated
[2] Arctic Silver (company). Instructions For Arctic Silver, Arctic Silver II, and Arctic Silver 3. Arctic Silver, Inc.(2003). [Thermal compound application(v.) instructions.] Available online:
[3] Ibid.
[4] Ibid.