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Dell Offering "Open" PC
Sans writes "Dell began offering a new desktop Dimension E510n PC this week with no operating system installed. The machine is designed for people who want to run open-source software such as Linux instead of Windows. The PC comes with a blank hard drive and a copy of the FreeDOS operating system, which can be installed by customers."
This is the kind of thing that leads to misleading statistics...News headline: "Dell offers PCs without Windows but demand remains close to zero." Microsoft spokesman "It's obvious to us that most PC buyers want Windows running on their machines yadda yadda yadda..."
Who would buy this machine? A inexperienced home user? They wouldn't be interested in a computer that wouldn't even start up out of the box. Business? Business would buy the equivalent Windows machine for $70 less and replace Windows with Linux (assuming that was the intended use for the FreeDOS machine). Geeks? They'd recycle an old machine or build their own.
If Dell was serious about providing another OS on their hardware, they'd partner with a Linux company (Red Hat, Novell, Mandriva, Linspire, etc.) and let the Linux company provide the software support.
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
Dell has been selling machines with FreeDOS for some time. We've bought several (including the machine I'm typing this on) for work. Let me know when they start to ship with AMD chips. That will be news.
Trolling is a art,
From TFA: I was curious, so I went to the Dell site and priced out some systems myself to see just how much you save. Here's what I found:
Dell Dimenson E510n (no OS installed): $774
IDENTICALLY CONFIGURED Dell Dimension E510 (only difference: comes with Windows XP Media Center 2005 Edition installed): $804
So apparently, a copy of Windows XP Media Center 2005 Edition costs $30.
I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with Dell....for a second there it looked like they might actually be doing something worthwhile, but upon doing the math, it's obvious they're just milking this whole Linux thing for their own personal gain. I'll continue building my systems from scratch, thanks.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
... is much more popular than Linux, of course. Seriously, does this mean Microsoft is still pulling strings somewhere at Dell, or what?
I've bought 3 desktop PCs from dell in the last year that came without an OS, and with a FreeDOS cd in the box. So, how does this announcement qualify as news?
This post will enter the public domain 70 years after my death, unless Disney buys another extension.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/27/013520 8">http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/27/013 5208
And it was old news THEN as well!
- what is the definition of simultanagnosia?! I've been meaning to look it up!
[Quagmeyer]Aall Riiiight[/Quagmeyer}
Can I get one with an Opteron?
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
FINALLY they get it right! This is exactly what I did as soon as my Inspiron 9100 came -- wiped the HDD. At least they'll save a certain breed of desktop owners the trouble.
this is a good start, too bad they're including FreeDOS disks and not free Ubuntu disks though. But I'd guess that the people who would buy this sort of machine already have access to some distributions.
he envisioned back in '80s that PC with DOS will be good enough even in 2005.
839*929
...quite apart from being "old news", that is.
The number of times I've seen people post on here adamant that they don't want to pay the Microsoft Tax on a new PC, only to see the response so far to this, makes me smile. Complaining that the difference in cost is too small, or that Dell hasn't chosen their favourite Linux distro to put on there, doesn't have an AMD processor, blah blah blah.
It's a PC without a preinstalled forcibly-paid-for copy of Windows. So Dell gets Windows for cheap, you don't see a huge price difference, but all those people who wanted an MS-free PC can now buy one. You can't possibly be upset by that, can you???
Game dev and music blog
Open Source PC?? What if I already own a copy of Windows, simply _replace_ my current PC with a new one and use this copy of Windows. I don't want to pay a new copy of Windows each time I _replace_ my PC...
I can already buy a PC from my local "PC clone" vendor without Windows on it (Windows price removed) , so why is Dell, HP, IBM... can't do it?
Your local PC clone guy likely doesn't have to answer to stock holders. Dell, etc. do so they have to find ways to placate the peasant rabble whilst keeping stock holders happy.
It's a balancing act.
Cogito Ergo Sum
In the past, PC makers that offered non-MS variants were allegedly punished by MS with higher prices, delayed access to info on future MS OSes, etc. That both Dell and HP are offering machines with Linux suggests that the power has shifted, that MS needs HP and Dell more than those big PC makers need MS.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
At least is a start, even if it's not entirely new "news". If they actually promoted this, and gave it a better price drop, people might realize that there is a choice, and that "windows" is not the computer. We can hope. Xandros user
Registered Linux User #404114 [url=http://www.punkoiska.com][img]http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4379/posbannercf5.g
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/precn_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Took less than 5 minutes of looking. Hit *customize* and make it your dream machine.
-everphilski-
I didn't realize he was arrested and thrown in jail for copyright infringement.
*ducks*
I'll continue using my OpenCore FPGA, thanks.
if they put in a Nvidia card for the linux users.
Additionally I wouldn't be surprised if Dell already caters to companies who make large purchases from that to give them "open" boxes...
Almost but, not quite. The way it works at Dell and HP is that they provide the PC with your image factory installed. That's right, your company's specific image including OS, applications (even in house custom apps), all settings and configurations right down to the hostname and asset management stickers pre-installed at the factory. The end-user receives the PC, plugs it in and goes to work. Zero configuration.
Now Dell is promoting piracy! Hasn't Microsoft told us that selling machines without Windows just means that people install pirated copies of their OS? :-)
Volume pricing on a windows license is about $30. We've covered this before. The price differential should be exactly $30 - it is - Dell is being honest (good for them).
-everphilski-
How can you tell? Well, for starters, you can buy the same system with a hard disk twice the size with a 17" LCD monitor and Windows Media Center Edition for the same price.
More importantly, the 510n comes with an ATI card that will be difficult to get to work properly with X.org (dunno if Xi Graphics is still in business), whereas the 510 uses an Intel chipset that, while not great, will probably work better.
And why not simply install a popular Linux distribution on it from the get go? They could "brand" it simply by adding a package with Dell-logo wallpapers, themes, and icon sets.
Dell's just grubbing for some positive press.
This can only spell one thing. Big trouble in little Dell!!
:-)
Micro$oft will undoubtedly begin the legal proceedings against Dell due to the fact that the fundamental purpose behind FreeDOS was to be able to run those old MSDOS programs!!! Microsoft wants em dead... dead... dead. Dell is just helping now to promote software piracy by mitigating users to continue to use those old MSDOS games and heaven forbid... Word for MSDOS!
Cheers
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I would have bought this earlier this year, as it stands I bought a Dimension 3.2G box for less than 500$. I DID NOT want to buy a machine with XP already installed on it, but get this; it was 80$ CHEAPER to buy the same machine with Windows than a 'naked' machine with a freeDOS option! I guess it's supply and demand, but it still irks the hell outta me that I paid the MS 'tax' and continued the 'look at home many ppl buy machines with XP installed!' FUD. Can these "Open" machines compete in price with Dell's (constantly) adverstised special? If not, I can't see too many ppl paying more for a machine with no OS vs a cheaper machine with XP (That I immediately installed over - no, I didn't look into the 'rebate' - sounds like it's a hassle anyway).
fak3r.com
What store would that be? I've never seen any Dells for sale in any retail store.
So apparently, a copy of Windows XP Media Center 2005 Edition costs $30.
I'm sure that Dell doesn't price it's machines cost + fixed margin. They price them to maximize profit.
Here are three possible scenarios:
Scenario 1: XP 2005 costs Dell rather more than $30.
Possible rataionale for pricing: 30 dollars is cheaper enough that people planning on installing a different operating system will buy this SKU instead of the equivalent Windows SKU. We pocket the difference as additional profit.
Scenario 2: XP Costs Dell a bit less than $30.
Possible rataionale for pricing (not very likely): Although are margins are somewhat lower, our volume may be higher by taking business away from competitors, e.g. people who object to paying the "Windows Tax" will buy this box instead of an equivalent Gateway.
Scenario 3: XP Costs Dell precisely $30.
Possible rataionale for pricing: there is insufficient gain in volume on reducing our margins to justify a lower price. Volume losses on price increases would cut into our net profit.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I just love that the use an ATI video card, an audigy sound card, and a Serial ATA drive. If you can pack more difficult components for linux into a single box I would be very surprised. Most distributions seem to have the USB issue under control, but the rest is laughable. The price is also out of this world.
Ross Winn "not just another ugly face..."
This isn't news (Dell has always had OS options). The real news will be when Apple offers machines with a choice of operating systems. Then we will be able to see how much the cost of the OS tax is on the Mac.
Remember... in slashdot land:
Lack of Microsoft choice = bad
Lack of Apple choice = brilliant
With a trampoline, you take off your shoes first.
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i nearly died.. i too, have paid about $500 for an almost identical system.. oh, and also, it comes with a gig of fuckin ram, and a 200 gig SATA drive.. what the fuck is this Dell?? Just a couple months ago you were offering a PC for $300 with a monitor!!! and THAT came with a $100 operating system!! this is re-goddamn-tarded..
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
Didn't check it out if they do, but besides the cost savings for the purchase, Dell should also reduce the cost of their 1yr/3yr support cost. Of course the HW can still fail, but I'm sure that the majority of the calls in their support centers is about people having problems with their (Windows) software. When people install their own software, they are of course on their own on that topic.
Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
A truly "open" PC would have:
FOSS software for anything flashable, including
- BIOS
- CPU microcode
- other code, e.g. video, etc. if flashable
To be "completely open" it must have
- no hardware, software, or anything else encumbered by trade secrets, patents, copyrights, etc. unless they were "free" as in FOSS.
- completely published specs, source code, and other design documents including specs for every component, so I can build my own from raw earth, all unencumbered
You will not have a "completely open" hardware PC in my lifetime but open-bios/microcode/etc is a possibility outside the USA. The USA is trending the opposite direction with DRM and "trusted computing."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Why would someone pirate a XP OS if it comes for the low ammount of $30?.
Only the licences for the fonts included are much more worth than that.
b.t.w. I run Linux for years...
Ok, two DIFFERENT stores.
There would be AS MUCH dust on the Linux pre-loaded boxes in one store as there is on the Apple systems (and Jeff Goldblum's career) in the other store.
Cogito Ergo Sum
However, with a bit of hunting around, it's possible to build your own similar specification PC for about the same price with components you know will work with Linux - so I really don't see a point to buying a blank Dell machine, except for avoiding MS tax if you have no need for a Windows license.
I've not used any recent Dell machines but I'd also be concerned about future upgrades - Dell PCs used to require Dell upgrades, as was the same with Compaq, Toshiba, etc.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
I've noticed the same thing.
:)
While personally I probably won't buy a PC from Dell one way or the other, at least not a desktop, I'm happy to see that they've taken this small step.
I could see this model appealing to people (admittedly, a small market) who are interested in playing with Linux but don't want to assemble their own system, for either technical or personal reasons, e.g. it's not worth their time for the money saved.
Rather than viewing it as a half-step less than Dell should have taken, I'd prefer to view it as a half-step more than they could have. After all, if they hadn't done this, we never would have noticed. It just would have been business as usual.
To me personally, I hope that it will encourage other models to be sold like this as well, particularly from other vendors (IBM/Lenovo, do you hear me?). This is mostly because I'm more in the market for a notebook right now than another desktop, and I prefer IBM to Dell, but I'm still not going to slam Dell for doing the right thing, even in a small way. That just seems counterproductive.
But then again, this is Slashdot -- counterproductivity is the name of the game.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
But where does Dell guarantee that it will even run Linux with 100% of the hardware working?
Maybe *that* is why they don't bundle Ubuntu or Fedora with it...?
I'd rather go with something like Sun's Ultra 20, which comes with Solaris pre-installed and is certified to run Solaris, Linux (RedHat), and Windows.
Nice to see Steve Ballmer is posting as A.C. again.
these is to run pirated versions of OS X. ;)
In the past year or two, a number of "hot deals" sites have featured Dell's low-end servers without pre-installed OS at nice prices in the $249-$349 range.
I recall model numbers 400SC and SC420 among others, decent Intel motherboards that you'd otherwise find in Dell's mid- to top workstations, P4 1.8 to 2.8 Ghz, various combos of RAM and HD, some bundles with flat panels, free shipping, etc. I remember one deal for the 400SC with buy-one-get-one-free 10K 70 gig SCSI drives; another deal for dual CPU low-end servers.
These make very nice desktops for the average business or home user - certainly they're a step above what Dell normally sells in the big ads in the consumer marketplace for roughly the same cash.
As with many hot-deals, you'll find plenty of these units - parted out and not - on eBay. The shipping is crazy, but the overall price is often still low.
Curator of the Jefferson Computer Museum http://www.threedee.com/jcm
This touches on something I've been thinking about sending to Ask Slashdot.
I'm sort of over the whole "building my own machine" thing. I'd like to buy a box that meets the following requirements.
1. Doesn't include windows.
2. Built from "standard" components. (I.e. I don't have to buy a Dell power supply if I need a replacement.)
3. All included hardware natively supported by stable Linux. (I.e. no lame ndis wrapper. I guess I'll probably have to live with binary-only video drivers.)
Can anybody recommend a vendor?
-Peter
why home & media center are often the same, but going to XP pro is always more then 100$,and lately always $119?
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
These are nothing new. My company buys a lot of Dell 2400 machines that come with FreeDOS. In fact, Dell has been offering FreeDOS with machines for a while, at least to businesses, probably because many of them either want to use Linux or have a volume license for WinXP. We use Linux on our machines here.
Dell has offered this choice to volume and channel sales for many years. The reason they sell it to you with FreeDOS is because their bulk license agreement with Microsoft forbids them from selling OS-less machines. This volume option was intended for two specific markets:
1. People purchasing tons of desktops for organizations with streamlined IT management with pre-defined system images, so they could pull the machine out of the box, put the image and send it to the proper user. Saves them a few minutes per machine in setup.
2. People purchasing tons of cheap reliable boxes intended to run a non-Microsoft OS. Think you just started your dream business as a hosting provider and you wanted to buy 500 $299 Dell servers.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
It appears that they've been selling these machines without an OS for awhile, but this is the first I've heard of it. I'm somewhat disappointed they're using ATI cards, and it's not much cheaper than the equivalent Windows machines, but I am glad to see Dell making inroads in that direction.
The university I go to has a wad of new Dell Optiplex n-series machines running Academic Linux and they seem to be very nice, but I have no understanding of the price deal they have.
Who really would want that? If someone is sophisticated enough to use a Linux OS...
why use a poorly made Dell? I've yet to see a Dell product that's of fair quality, forget about good.
The PowerEdge burns longer.
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Zinside is a fast growing provider of Open Source IT solutions. They sells Linux PC and they offer a full range of Linux servers.
I don't find this news anyway exiting frankly. I manage to buy desktop computers without windows for a long time. What I find really frustrating is the near impossibility to buy a laptop (well, the one I want at least) without windows; I'll find DELL offers interesting once they move toward that direction.
...if you keep an eye on all their deals, you can almost always do better. It'd be one thing if they were saying across the board "No OS...subtract $30" like they do when you take out a modem, NIC, floppy, speakers, etc. But this is more of a "religious" thing than an actual cost-saving measure.
From TFA: "[Dell's] Dimension E510n PC... retails for US$849 and comes with a Pentium 4 processor; 512MB of advanced DDR computer memory; a 128MB ATI Radeon X300SE HyperMemory video card; an 80GB serial ATA hard drive and a one-year limited warranty."
From Dell.com: Dimension 3000, $579, 2.8GHz P4, XP Home, 512 MB, 160 GB ATA/100 7200 RPM HD, and an analog 17" LCD. $659 gets you a Dimension 4700 with a 3.2GHz HT P4 and a 160 GB SATA drive. Oh yeah, and a 17" LCD.
Yes, there are differences, chief among them the video card (onboard versus *ahem* ATI) but still... $200 less *and* an LCD? Come on.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Anyone else read this at first as Dell looking to cut costs even more by neglecting to give you a full case? No? Well, I guess that's what sleep depervation will do to you. :-P
Have they not been doing this for some time?
I have ordered servers that were 'blank' as far back as 5 years ago.. And i know back then they also offered bare desktops too ( but you had to dig deep to find those ).
Ibm also used to offer 'choice'. Donno about now, considering they dont actually make desktops/laptops any longer.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Guess honesty is kinda fuzzy here :)
The cost to dell may indeed be 30 dollars, but as such the selling price should come down more than 30.
No company trying to turn a profit sells its product at cost.
Do you think the rest of the PC's components are being sold at Dell's cost? No way.
What happens with most manufacturers is that they price for retail at a desireable price above Bill of Materials. Let's say the entire BOM cost of an 800 dollar PC to Dell is 150 bucks. Dropping a 30 dollar fixed cost really helps their bottom line and should have a bigger impact to the consumer.
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
People commenting here seem to think that Dell owes them. Why on Earth (as some people have suggested) would Dell jeopodize their profits in order to satisfy an open source addicted minority? People have to remember, Dell are in it for one thing: making money. I'm not saying that they're little money grubbing Bill clones, hell bent on open source destruction. But at the end of the day, if you're going to sell more and make more money when your selling Windows, you're not going to put much time or energy into anything else.
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
No, you can't give your copy to your grandma. Not if you intend to live up to the terms of the MS EULA for OEM Windows, anyway. The copy you got with your machine is only licensed for use on that particular machine.
Those willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.
I could not agree more! We actually HAD a PowerEdge Server that started smoking...
"I did this cuz Linux gives me a woody"
That not all of the hardware is usable under the included OS, FreeDOS.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Wouldn't it be great for those people that go "I'd really like to learn more about linux, but I can't figure out how to install it." Installing and configuring any kind of *nix system is a black art, and it's a bit harsh to have to subject newbies to it.
FreeDOS doesn't do many people much good these days, but at least with linux a person could check their e-mail and browse the web. Dell could offer a disclaimer saying they won't offer support if they don't want to deal with the hassle.
Or are Windows installs more tenacious to remove on a Dell machine? I've never had a Dell, for pretty much the same reason I don't eat Big Macs.
I've seen kiosks selling them, haven't seen a store with them though.
Could you please explain how in the world you're going to replace the chipsets on an existing PC motherboard with an FPGA? Or even what motherboards out there ship with an OpenCore FPGA which allows you to do this, for any reasonable modern CPU?
I don't keep up with the current state-of-the-art with OpenCores; but I was under the impression that they aren't at this stage yet. A quick perusal of opencores.org doesn't dissuade me from this view.
So, could you either provide a link to what you're referring to? Or is this just BS?
Note to mods: I wouldn't mod the parent up until some more real proof comes along. Hopefully my skeptiscm is misplaced.
Thanks.
The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
Dell has been offering machines pre-loaded with FreeDOS, Linux or no operating system at all for probably a number of years now. The price to include Red Hat Enterprise Linux is just slightly lower than that of Windows so it's not always a great deal like people think. (Thanks Red Hat for being a bunch of assholes as usual...)
Why not just leave it blank? Or why not one of the Linux/*BSD distros?
I can purchase a new PC, install CP/M and not have to pay the Microsoft tax or deal with "modern" OSes whose sole purpose is to use up CPU cycles so you have to upgrade you hardware every couple of years.
I've been buying Dell computer without any OS installed for quite some time.
The trick is to call Dell to order and tell them that you do not want any OS.
I've been doing so not anly for the Dimiension but also for the Optiplex line.
The web form do not provide the option to remove the OS.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Ah yes, the ubiquitous cost-plus pricing.
Who ever said this maximizes profits? In fact it usually doesn't.
Suppose Dell is selling only two products: Computer W and Computer N, which differ only in that W has Windows, and N has no OS. Presumably, Dell would set prices (pX, pN) on those two computers to maximize profits. Anyone who has taken a sufficiently advanced economics (or pricing) course would know that the profit maxmizing prices could differ by virtually any amount. That is, pX-pN need not be $30 (the cost of Windows). In fact the difference could even be less than $30, depending on consumer preference!
(Here's an extreme example. Suppose we finally reach Slashdot Utopia: everyone uses Linux. In such a world, Dell could not sell Computer W at any price higher than Computer N's price! pX-pN would actually be negative in this extreme example. Now this is not a realistic example, but it illustrates why "cost-plus pricing" may not be profit maximizing.)
So why is Dell dropping the price by exactly $30? *Shrug* Probably to keep goodwill with the masses who think cost-plus pricing is somehow "fair". No math can overcome that factor.
just sell Windows for $30, period? If the majority of OS they sell come bundled with great manufacturers... will they really lose a lot by offering Windows for 30 bucks? They can still sell it to manufacturers for $15.
cheap but not reliable. We've had 4 out of 12 Dimension 4000 series machines die - unacceptable.
And some have come with no AGP slot, completely unable to upgrade or improve them over the crap onboard video.
If I were going to buy a mass produced machine I would buy something else. I've always had good luck with Compaq.
Another bonus is that when you by from the small business side the prices are somewhat lower
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
Dell is finally giving us a more stable and secure OS!
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Unfortunately, HP does not allow you to actually buy such a notebook.
I'll stick to building my own PC's. Been doing it since I was a teenager, and I have no desire to buy a big name PC. Plus, I don't trust what they put in there. I've seen the inside of several low/mid range Dells, Gateways, Compaqs, etc. With the exception of the very new Compaqs (from HP), most of them use cheapo generic parts, inadequate cooling, etc. Sans-OS or not, they don't interest me. I like to know exactly what I put in there. Also I don't have to send my PC's off to some "authorized repair center" where some PFY will likely erase the hard drive and reinstall everything to "fix" it.
Just my two cents.
My friend got $50 back from HP after he bought his laptop and said he cdidnt accept the Windows XP EULA. Customer care had never heard of this before though, but after being redirected to a few people, they agreed to give him back $50. Not bad at all...
We have purchased many n Series Dimension systems, those all came without an OS. I prefer it that way to keep all the FREE trial software off the machine. These have cost anywhere from $265 to $345 and work for many office tasks with no problems. The only thing about this that is NEWS is that they have the E series of Dimension now.
Seriously.
Everytime I've tried to do a 'naked' install on a 'brand-name' low-cost system, I end up with driver problems, either with Windows or Linux.
Something is *always* futzy. You *always* end up downloading strange roll-up drivers from the manufacturer, and they never seem to work properly. Basic things like suspend/resume end up being flaky unless you can figure out the exact set of drivers your system has been certified 'workable' with; this is true even down to the revision!
Sony, Dell, HP, Compaq, the lot of them. In the low-end market, these machines feel like crap.
I thought the purpose of buying a system with a pre-install was so that you didn't have to go throught that hassle?
Mind you, I haven't had near as many problems with the higher end stuff.
It's been awhile since I've purchased one of these, however, so I can't be sure.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
As far as I can tell, no Dell really "comes with Windows" these days. There is usually some approximation of Windows installed on the hard drive but no Windows media. You get a hardware-restricted OEM license and no tangible product.
Does Dell even still give you a "restore CD", or do they rely on some hidden partition on the hard drive to hold the image?
But without the dog and the pony.
I bought my current home desktop 4 years ago from Dell. It came preinstalled with RedHat Linux 7.1. This was one of the last Dell Dimension desktop PCs that came preinstalled with Linux before they stopped offering Linux desktop to end-users. I am looking toward buying more Windows-less desktops from Dell in future.
Two words, site license.
....), why should you have to pay again?
If your business have a site license for MS Windows (or Red Hat or Novell or
As for the build your own market, no thanks. It's fun the first dozen times but after a while you realize that your time is more important than saving a few bucks. Not all Linux users build their own machines and not all Linux users use Red Hat, Novell, Mandriva, Linspire, or any company sponsored Linux, so I definitely wouldn't want to be "taxed" for it.
As for inexperiences users, their "I know a guy who knows lots about computer" friend usually handles PC purchase and setup. If the inexperiences users have a copy of Windows and plan to junk their old machine or give it away to charity (which will wipe out the OS anyway to avoid legal issues), why shouldn't you be able to move their MS Windows license to the new machine.
Back in the early 80s, as part of the anti-trust settlement, IBM was forced to decouple the OS from it's hardware. It was a good thing.
Let's not go down that road again.
Dell will ship PCs and servers with anything you want preloaded.
All you got to do, is buy one, configure it the way you want, send them the disk drive and ask them to make more.
I received four Dell machines with Red Hat installed a couple weeks ago.
Oh well, what the hell...
Bah... Dell has been doing this for a long time in China. People just install their own copy of Windows XP Pro from a $1USD pirated version bought from their local street vendors.
because our techs consistently forgot to put the side on the computer prior to shipment. Try explaining that to the end user...
http://overat.blogspot.com/2004/09/desktop-pc-vend ors.html
Visit my blog http://www.protocolostomy.com
Maybe they are realizing that the people who buy more hardware more frequently are... the people who matter most: system tweaking geeks. A lot of us have realized that if you don't need to spend money on software (to be legitimate that is), then that money is better spent on things like CPU/RAM and storage. Or... top put it another way: only the hardware is valuable in terms of dollars.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Clue time dude. Nvidia is 100% closed source. Many ATI cards can be driven directly by X.org in 3D and work is ongoing to support more. ATI can't seem to bring themselves to openly support these efforts but somebody there has to be helping under the table. Nvidia on the other hand is closed, likes it that way and has zero intentions of ever allowing an open driver to develop. Nvidia has been on my "NEVER BUY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" list for years and most Free Software supporters have a similar policy. Dell made the right call when picking a vendor for their n series as far as I'm concerned.
Still wouldn't be dumb enough to buy one though. Why pay the same or more to NOT get a Windows license or tech support? We all know support is the #1 expense for a beige box vendor these days, if they want to skip out on that they better give me a bargain big enough to put up with their sub par hardware over.
Democrat delenda est
Unbelievable that 3 different Microsoft apologists have said that "FreeDOS" is necessary for testing the machine. That would make sense if it was *installed*. It's not, the disk is blank. RTFA.
And another person said the reason FreeDOS was included instead of NOTHING is because they don't want to support Linux. CLUE: installing NOTHING means you don't have to support Linux *or* FreeDOS.
In fact something is screwy. And the Microsoft apologists are really scrambling to explain away the real reasons, which the original poster certainly nailed.
The types of folks who want to set up a linux workstation will probably just build the machine. However, building a laptop is more difficult. Selling laptops with blank disks would be a good move, IMO.
BTW, I too found it difficult to configure a Dell desktop system sans XP without the price going up. I ended up buying one with XP and formatting it as soon as I got it. Seems like I should be able to sell my XP license to someone else who needs it, but I don't believe that's possible given their license. Frustrating.
The last time I tried to take one of their desktop machines apart.. Well.. I couldn't.. Half of the case was locked in by some hidden mechanism and the motherboard appeared to be epoxyed onto the surface of the frame. Not to mention that the only reason the other side even came off in the first place was because it was at one point very forcably removed. I wish they'd also make these things servicable by users. Talk about vendor lock in..
When I bought a Dell this year, I requested dual booting so I could have Windows and Linux. -Yes sometimes Windows is better to use. I'm a realist on the OS not a fanatic. I dont like Windows anymore than the next intelligent person, but they have such a hammerlock on so much out there that sometimes it is more efficatious to use them, like for mmorgs.- Anyhow, Dell said they did not support dual booting. The machine came with a Windows xp, and a lot junk an AOL hookup, MacAfee virus protec, etc.. It would really be nice if Dell would support some meaningful things like dual booting.
that measn i can install my Open source copy of XP pro on it with my Open source fake serial?
COOL
My employer has an MS site license, but it stipulates that while Windows upgrades are covered it does not cover new purchases, ie any box that we buy with the intent of running Windows on it must come with a windows license. Don't know if that applies to other site licensees.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
My first computer didn't have an OS installed.
But then, it didn't have a hard drive either.
Microsoft has over $40 billion in cash. They can survive in their present form for 5 years without any income. They could also layoff people and cut down the business to survive longer. Without Dell and HP, their sales market would take a major hit, but their revenue from other vendors would continue revenue. Plus, with no one purchasing Dells or HPs, people would migrate to Gateway, Toshiba, and others.
HP doesn't need Microsoft so much, because their printing division keeps the company afloat.
Dell, on the other hand, needs Microsoft. If MS pulled Dell's licensing, they would dry up within a year. Linux on their machines would keep them going for a bit, but as soon as word through common folk learn that Dell Pcs are harder to use and software at Walmart doesn't work on them, no one would purchase them, when they can get a Gateway, Toshiba, Sony, or other brand that works.
Microsoft isn't going anywhere anytime soon. They've commanded the market for over 20 years. All the open source shit software is for programmers and geeks, not first time computer users.
Besides, once Linux goes mainstream, all the geeks will move to a new counter culture, such as BSD, or whatever new comes along.
Eh? This is major news to me, to date Nvidia kit worked great in 2D but zilch for 3D. When did this change and is it a reverse effort or has Nvidia seen the light? Of course this URL http://www.x.org/X11R6.8.2/doc/nv.4.html doesn't mention it so I'll remain a bit skeptical.
Democrat delenda est
Local computer stores have been doing this for years.
If I'm gonna install open source software, it requires less powerful hardware than WinBloat, right? So why buy the overpowered e510 when I can get a 2400, wipe out the Windows, and get acceptable performance from Linux?
This is incorrect. Michael Dell himself invested $100m into Red Hat, not Dell itself. They are different entities.
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/09/ 1221229&tid=110&tid=98&tid=106
I don't moderate anymore. Karma penalty for 90% fair mods? Can I mod that unfair?
When I saw the heading "'Open' PC" I thought it was going to be some kind of open-source hardware or design model, but it turned out to be the usual PR bullshit.
Long live the DIY computer builder.
I'll ditto the two-screen brokenness of ATI. For some reason I can't get my two monitors to do better than 1024x768 resolution. If I do single screen, they'll do 1280*1024 just fine. Apparently the "ati" driver only supports a max 2048x2048 desktop size.
The "fglrx" driver would apparently do better, but all I get is massive artifacting all over the desktops when I try to use it.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
where Microsoft has to PAY people to use Windows? I call that Progress.
Viper is the preferred editor of the Emacs operating system.
Given the fact that most ANY computer nowdays made by major manufacturers can install/boot an OS by simply inserting the CD and restarting the computer and then telling it to boot from the CD-ROM (Or floppy in the case of some very minor OSes) what's the big problem *EXCEPT* the OS install config?
In Ubuntu, you hardly have any problems installing it if you're used to the M$ install procedure. For other flavors of Linux, you may have to do some-to-MAJOR configuration. In Windows just plug in, hit the keyboard button to install, pick your file system, then Windows *NORMALLY* takes care of the rest.
The fact that this comes with FreeDOS (Which has a native CD-ROM driver included) just makes it easier for people to choose what OS they wish to install, instead of forcing them to use the pre-installed OS.
Oh, BTW, Dell does offer support for Linux if you install iot, and have supported it since they started putting Linux on their main-and-small-business servers. OTherwise, they'd be SOL by moving their server line to Linux.
This coming from a Dell-certified technician. Take my words as lightly as you wish (since being certified doesn't necessarily mean you've got experience with what you're talkign about, but I've installed Ubuntu many times before. I'm waiting on my latest release CD to come in, sadly, they're not accepting requests to ship the newest version to the customer.)
BTW (OFFTOPIC) Did you know out of all the Apple repair jobs that are done, only one out of every 15 are done by true Apple-certified technicians? Want proof? Move to Memphis and work for FLEXTRONICS. Only 3% of their staff is Apple-certified, [I'm not one of them, BTW] but we ALL did repair/reimaging work on every Apple laptop [from the 72B model iBook to the Titanium G4 powerbook] contrary to Apple's claim that "Every laptop is repaired by an Apple-Certified technician." How can you trust that kind of support? I won't trust Dell as far as I can throw the company's main building, but damned if they don't have better support at least.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
It's not that hard to look up the simple fact that Mr. Gates sad that 640 k of RAM was all we needed!!!
On a personal note, he *MAY* have been right, but we've got so many advances, more instruction sets, different instructions that are (potentially, depending upon who;s doing the coding) slower than the older processors. Remember this. In the PS2 console, you're running RISC, which means you need to streamline and make the code as efficient as possible to make the most out of the processor. Guess what? I'll *GUARANTEE* that most proprietary programs have about anywhere from 1,000-1,000,000 million lines of USELESS code.
Yes, I'm an advocate for more efficient coding. If we can squeeze more out of less, we should be doing it. Instead, most programmers are trying to fit this bloated code onto one-two-three CD-ROMs (or 1 DVD-ROM) just to *WEAKLY* attempt making the program faster, when an older version of a program runs faster on older processors than the new version does. (See my journal about my test between a 533 MHZ P3 vs. a 1.8 GHz P4. No benchmarks except my own stopwatch, forget software tests, I want *REAL-TIME* results. Take off the blinders.)
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
... What I'm really looking for is to have every PC they already sell (or at least some significant percentage of them -- it could exclude their prepackaged "Outrageous Deal" systems that have no options) to have an "O/S" option, with the choices: "XP Professional (+ $100)", "XP Home", and "None (- $30) *". The asterisk would be explained by a note that says "Unit ships with FreeDOS to allow hardware checkout; if you choose this option, Dell will not provide support for consumer installed O/S."
A while back, I purchased a 400SC server from them with no O/S. I remain quite happy with it, and Mandriva runs great. I just want the same options available on their PCs.
We apologize for the preceding message. All those responsible have been sacked.
Since I'm about to purchase a new system I've been comparing Dell models and configuring a number of systems/options. When I log in to Dell via my Univeristy Employee Purchase Program interface, the n-series machines are not listed as options. That kinda sucks since I can obtain a licensed copy of Vista, XP, etc. through my institution, so I don't need *another* copy via Dell.
The target market for this product is people who want to pirate Windows.
So, has anyone actually managed to buy one of them yet? Interesting analysis from The Register here
Dell this week received much praise for releasing a new version of its "open source" PC. The computer fits into Dell's n Series range of Windows-less systems. These ship with a copy of FreeDOS in the packaging material - but not installed on the PC - which is apparently a bizarre concession to Microsoft. While Dell garners glowing reviews for shipping such an open source OS-friendly product, the company's new E510n actually stands as yet another example of how hard Dell tries not to sell non-Microsoft gear.
_ pc/
If Dell has an official press release touting the E510n, we sure can't find it. In addition, the company doesn't present the n Series systems to customers looking for desktops on a standard shopping page. Instead, you'll have to go ahead and search for "n Series" on Dell's web site to find the gear. But even then you've only just started your journey.
Rest of article
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/dell_open
FreeDOS is hardly a true operating system. It lacks features... almost ALL features. So how can you point out flaws to Dell? Say, the GPU overheats when playing OpenGL games, or the Firewire port doesn't work. Are you going to confront Dell using Zeke's Diagnost-A-Rama floppy?
I don't think so. You buy this PC for Linux or whatever, and you are on your own.
Buyer Beware!
If you want to lay down cash to take part in Michael Dell's little experiment in making his customers helpless, saving him big bucks on support overhead, or just exploring whether he can grow a Linux / OS X market from a core of curious hackers... Should this appeal to you, then for crisesake just send the money to me instead and I will buy you a computer from a vendor that supplies a Linux distro for free and supports it. Then, even if you replace the supplied OS, you can still restore it and most likely use it to demonmstrate a hardware failure should the need arise.
The Linux box is probably more expensive because it comes with support and possibly commercial software (staroffice, viavoice etc...), the Windows box doesn't and nor does the ISO that you download of the net.
I very much doubt that Del would install an ISO off the net, so you'll still get more bang for you buck with the Linux box that a Windows one.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Why is everyone focusing on conspiracy theories instead just buying the cheaper PC, formatting the hard drive, installing the Linux distro of your choice, and selling the Windows XP key on eBay for $30 OBO? You'll come out way ahead dollar-wise, someone who wants Windows XP will be getting a legal XP key at a greatly reduced price while sticking it to MS at the same time, and you don't have to install FreeDOS if you don't want to.
My GOD, people, you're Linux users. Since when did you need a PC manufacturer to pre-install Linux for you? It just seems like you are more interested in complaining about MS trying to screw the world than you are in screwing MS back. Of course they're trying to screw the world; they're Microsoft. Get use to it.
If you really want to screw MS, "give" the key away to someone that was going to pay $89 for it. There, you just stopped a sell of Windows XP. Feels good, doesn't it? Now imagine every Linux user giving away there Windows XP key that they were "forced" to buy.
If you are going to pay for the XP license anyway, you might as well get it, and use it as best you can against MS. Have fun with it; get creative.
What eats resources is the X11 windowing system.
You can get X11 servers that are a few hundred K total of code, and require less than a megabyte to run. For several years, I was working on a UNIX-based PC with an X11 desktop on a 33MHz machine with 4Mbytes of RAM.
Your desktop X11 server may be big and slow in comparison, but that's because you permit it to grow that large, because current desktops cache lots of bitmaps in the server, and because the XFree86 implementation of it isn't all that great. And if you look at the size and speed of XP and Quartz, you'll see that even XFree86 is pretty good in comparison. The biggest culprit in poor GUI performance (and Linux GUIs can be sluggish, though no more so than Windows and Mac) are Gnome and KDE.
I'm sure that you could create a display server optimised for applications running locally on a desktop machine with a single monitor {most people's configuration} and it probably would be less resource-intensive.
All three major desktop window systems (XP, X11, Quartz) these days have a client/server architecture. X11, like all the others, supports local IPC mechanisms and shared memory on local machines.
All of them can, in principle, be remoted. The thing that makes X11 "network transparent" is that it has standards for how to actually do that; if you try to remote a Windows app in the same way you might remote an X11 app, all sorts of things stop working correctly (unfortunately, this is a misfeature that both Gnome and KDE have started to copy).
You can break network transparency, but it won't make your window system any faster or any less bloated.
Unfortunately, you still can't by Mac hardware without an OS.
Furthermore, YDL does not support even all built-in hardware because Apple keeps some stuff secret.
Hopefully, things will get better with the x86-based Macs: selling those in a choice of OSX, Windows, Linux, and empty would make sense.
There were so many spelling mistakes in your post we won't even try to correct them here. Suffice to say we've decided to take a more decisive course of action instead.
Kind regards,
The Global Federation of Spelling Nazi Associations
P.S. Very funny post. Won't help you though.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone