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Are there even any unhacked non-PC devices that play FLAC? Nothing against FLAC

FLAC is currently the most popular Lossless compressed format for hardware players.

High end living-room digital players usually support it. Some offer services where you send your CDs and when you receive your player it's pre-loaded with FLACs of your music (like Olive for example)

Several Jukebox also exist with support for FLAC, like in car systems from PhatNoise's.

Logitech's latest Squeezbox supports it too, for a more recent example.

For more detailed and longer list see FLAC's own list.

In addition to all these branded software, don't forget also about all the countless of no-name "multimedia-harddisk-case" (small box usually centered around some miniITX board running a small embed linux-based mediaplayer. Sold pre assembled in store and buy-your-own-harddisk in computer shops). Granted most of them DO use Linux and PC-like hardware. But they are sold as ready-to-use appliance, like your DSL/Cable modem and Wifi router (which is most likely to run Linux, too).

In short the fact the iPod doesn't play it, and Microsoft's "Play-for-Sure" logo forbids it in the USA, doesn't mean that the rest of the world isn't already using it.

A whole new batch of devices and stores support FLAC: for portables there are the iAUDIO T2 and iAUDIO F2, TrekStor's Vibez, the Onda VX737, and the AP3000 from Green Apple. For the home stereo, Slim Devices' Transporter and Ziova's CS510 and CS505. For music in FLAC format check out digital-tunes for electronic and underground, or FestivaLink.net for live shows.

Bluedot's BMP-1430 portable supports FLAC.

AudioReQuest's new S.Series music servers support FLAC.

Cowon's A2 now supports FLAC with the latest firmware, and Olive's new Opus both plays and records to FLAC.

The new Iwod G10 portable supports FLAC.

Want some FLAC with your Volvo? Volvo's Digital Jukebox, developed with PhatNoise, is fully integrated with the car's audio system and available for the S60, V70, XC70, and S80. PhatNoise's PhatBox in 2002 was the first device to support FLAC natively and has gained a loyal following.

When I got my new car last year, I wanted to be able to do mp3s. I went out and got an iPod and an iTrip. That was thrown away as soon as I got in the car. I live in Toronto, and there is approximately 1 free spot on the FM dial that you can get FM on for the iTrip, and even it gets overrun sometimes. I found the quality horrible, so blah. Next was a tape adapter .. that worked great, but was messy (cables for audio and charging). VW didn't offer an iPod integration kit at that time, and 3rd party kits were like $500. So I started looking at VW options and found this:

http://www.phatnoise.com/

I got a Phatbox. It plugs right in to the the desk, through the CD Changer control cable already in the trunk. It's fully accessable through the deck (And steering wheel contols). The cartridge comes out of the player (it's just a laptop HD in a fancy case) and you plug it in to a cradle to load music on it. When you change songs/cds/artists, depending on what mode you're in, it reads you the title, so you don't have to look at anything. It's completely simple to use, and I never have to take my hands off the wheel, or eyes off the road.

The point of this is - while the iPod is a good device for mobile use, if you want something in your car, it's probably not the best solution. There are many solutions out there that are sound better, work better, and are cheaper (The phatbox was a whole $300 installed).

plus, for the Phatbox, the hacking community is alive and well, because the Phatnoise player actually runs Linux. And now that they've figured out how to upgrade the drive sizes, you can buy the 20gig DMS and drop whatever size laptop HDD in there you want.

http://www.phathack.com/

Just my $0.02 CDN

PhatBox has had this feature for years.

http://www.phatnoise.com/

My Phatbox has had this for years.

Are you familiar with Phatnoise? Their device will play FLAC encoded files.

http://www.phatnoise.com/

...or maybe the 'Kenwood Music Keg' which seems to run the same firmware.

The ogg question is addressed here.

I bought a PhatBox that works well for me, on account of the fact that it can handle flac - Free Lossless Audio Codec. flac gives you the option of compressing like MP3 or OGG, but at best those are still lossy, that is, you lose some data. I ripped my entire CD collection to "full quality" which, the claim goes, gives you the identical information as the original WAV file, but it's only about 70% of the size.

A 20 GB media player gives me 800-900 songs, though some of those are MP3s, so a flac-only disc would be 750+ songs. You can also get up to 120GB of storage now.

The other draw for me was the fact that it took the place of my 6-disc changer, and I just had to plug it in; no head unit surgery was required. It took seconds to install it, though I also opted to rip the unit out of its 8 pound steel casement and jam it in where my 6-disc changer was. It works with your existing head unit, that is, you use the 6 CD buttons on the existing stereo to browse the songs by playlist, artist, genre, etc.

The downside is that they have a 'list' price of $800 (not sure about the Kenwood Music Keg). I happened to find one on a VW enthusiast site for $120. The firmware is written to particular type of car stereo, so the same piece of hardware will be $800 for a Porsche, $600 for a BMW (as my BMW-owning boss discovered to his irritation), $400 for a Toyota, or $120 if a VW dealer is trying to get rid of them, as in my case. ...and no telltale iPod wires hanging out of the dash, or proprietary closed formats.

...or maybe the 'Kenwood Music Keg' which seems to run the same firmware.

The ogg question is addressed here.

I bought a PhatBox that works well for me, on account of the fact that it can handle flac - Free Lossless Audio Codec. flac gives you the option of compressing like MP3 or OGG, but at best those are still lossy, that is, you lose some data. I ripped my entire CD collection to "full quality" which, the claim goes, gives you the identical information as the original WAV file, but it's only about 70% of the size.

A 20 GB media player gives me 800-900 songs, though some of those are MP3s, so a flac-only disc would be 750+ songs. You can also get up to 120GB of storage now.

The other draw for me was the fact that it took the place of my 6-disc changer, and I just had to plug it in; no head unit surgery was required. It took seconds to install it, though I also opted to rip the unit out of its 8 pound steel casement and jam it in where my 6-disc changer was. It works with your existing head unit, that is, you use the 6 CD buttons on the existing stereo to browse the songs by playlist, artist, genre, etc.

The downside is that they have a 'list' price of $800 (not sure about the Kenwood Music Keg). I happened to find one on a VW enthusiast site for $120. The firmware is written to particular type of car stereo, so the same piece of hardware will be $800 for a Porsche, $600 for a BMW (as my BMW-owning boss discovered to his irritation), $400 for a Toyota, or $120 if a VW dealer is trying to get rid of them, as in my case. ...and no telltale iPod wires hanging out of the dash, or proprietary closed formats.

At least this guy's not making money off of it.

Look at the Kenwood music keg, then look at the "About us" link on the orignal Musc Keg's web site (aka phatnoise.com) that mentions when they first started developing it. 1999. Then search rec.audio.car for my /. name and look at the posts asking about info to make such a device in late 1998 (my website's down due to an ISP failure, or I'd point at that, too).

At least I only know of one place where someone actually beat me to market (I was gonna give my software away - those asses at phatnoise won't help anyone out, though they're sure benefitting from their Linux-based system), so the other things that are old news aren't quite as irritating.

Well, there is the PhatBox but that probably isn't quite what you wanted.

I have a phatbox too (Nissan version). When you tell people it uses voice navigation, they automatically assume that you talk to it. But the way it talks to you is really ingenius. You don't need to look down to find the controls, because you already know where they are, and you don't need to read the display, because you hear the titles. Sure, pronounciation is not perfect, but I can figure out what it's saying, and would rather have that than be screaming "B-jork" (*you* you have to be mis-pronouncing it for it to understand what you want) in my loud car with the windows down. I guess that's why Audi and Volkswagen sell Phatboxes, It's a safety thing. Plus, you can't beat true integration with your native stereo.

This reads more like a press release of an "amazing new product" that they haven't actually built yet than some concrete information. If mobile phones have voice control, and mobile phones can play MP3s, how is "a voice controlled MP3 player" suddenly an amazing new advance?

Of course you could just go out and buy one now if you actually wanted one for your car. There's even a funky flash demo.

There are car MP3 players, but the ones I have seen require you to burn a CD with MP3's on them.

Try this:

http://www.phatnoise.com/

Have you ever used a Phatbox? I have one in my car, it's a 20gb hard drive based player that announces things. You can read the display if you want, but since it speaks to you (literally) you can do without the screen. Great for driving. No reason that an iPod can't do the same, especially if you craft your playlists correctly. The Phatbox can navigate via playlists, artists, albums and genre, like the iPod.

Disclaimer: I am not an employee of Phatnoise, I'm just a very, very satisfied customer.

Try the PhatBox. It's been out for several years. I love mine. Plays pretty much all of your popular formats, plugs into your factory head unit (some after market ones as well like Kenwood or Sony) and sounds excellent! But I will say.. the artifacts that come with mp3 encoding don't really matter when you're in the car and factor in road noise. It sounds good enough when it's competing with wind blowing in through the windows.

An additional plus of the PhatBox is that it supports both OGG and FLAC in addition to WAV and MP3.

As to the harddrives - they use off-the-shelf (albeit the ruggeder line) of 2.5 inch drives.

Strange that nobody heard about Phatnoise or the Kenwood Music Keg. Beats anything on the market.
http://www.phatnoise.com/

Hey Silwenae,
That sounds like a unit that wasn't quite ready for prime time. That's a shame. I know how upset & disappointed I would be if I has the same issues. Perhaps if I tell you a bit about my choice, you might be a bit less skeptical.

I have a Phatnoise AKA Music Keg. The Phatnoise device is a HD based player designed to emulate a CD changer. You install it / have it installed just as you would any CD changer. It sends the audio & pulls the power from one cable attached to the head unit, so it looks like it would be really easy. (I wouldn't know, I had it professionally installed.)

I really enjoy the interface because it uses the Kenwood head unit for control & display. The head unit I chose has 2 lines of text & it makes it easy to see the name of the song & play list that I am listening to. I also have a remote installed on my steering wheel, so I don't even have to take my eyes off the road. This is important, as I have a KDC-X959 head unit. Pretty to look at, but a horrid UI.

In the Phatnoise forums, there is a constant discussion as to why the DMS aka "cartridge with the hard drive in it." It appears that they use laptop hard drives with better than average anti-shock characteristics. I'm not sure if that is the case, but I do know that what ever they use, it works.

The drawback to this arrangement is the cost of the unit. I paid about $600 for the Phatnoise with a 10 Gig drive about three years ago. The current cost for the largest upgrade, 80 Gig DMS, is $349. This gets you a hard drive in a case that slides into the Phatnoise unit.

There is also no wireless networking. But there are rumors of this coming in a future version. All in all, I would say it is a great setup. It never skips, it is easy to use, it is expensive, but it is worth it.

Good luck in your search.

http://www.phatnoise.com/

The first car MP3 player, http://www.phatnoise.com, is still the best. You replace you trunk-mounted CD unit with it, and it translates the key-presses from the stereo faceplate. It's very slick. It runs a little embedded linux (well, not embedded, it's actually on the drive cartridge) and you can mount the linux filesystem and hack at it to your heart's delight. I haven't looked at the forums in over a year, but last time I checked someone was hacking in a wireless device. Is it *really* such a pain in the ass to pull out a cartridge to load new music? Yes, I guess it is.

With all this talk always going on about small handheld music players such as the ipod, etc, I wonder why companies haven't done the same thing to home/car stereo systems.

Sure, I know that people always say that compressed 128kbps mp3 sounds crappy in the car. But with compactness being less important for your car, you can afford to put more storage and higher quality audio equipment as well.

Okay, I'm sure somebody will point out that there are companies (like PhatBox) that do something like this already, but they are very few compared to the number of portables.

Given that the VW stereos from recent years (1999 and later) can control the PhatBox system, I imagine someone could make a hack to connect the iPod to the CD changer connector that is prewired in most of these Volkswagens. Hacks already exist to use just the audio connection. It is possible someone could make the stereo buttons control the iPod and display the current track name on the head unit. The only problem is that most Vokswagens have the harness in the trunk, which isn't as convenient as the glove box.

better alternatives may be available for a whole bunch of cars/models other than BMW: and is called PhatNoise

the omnifi is quite a piece of junk (i know, i own one).

the best product i've seen so far is the phatbox. it's being sold by volkswagen and audi as optional equipment. the kenwood music keg is a derivative of the phatbox that only works with kenwood stereos, but you can buy a phatbox that works with many types of car stereos.

there are several other makers of in-car mp3 players. ssi neo, the omnifi, the now defunct empeg/riocar. none of these made any inroad with real manufacturers because of poor quality and terrible usability. after having used the phatbox SSA interface (it talks to you, so you can find your songs without ever having to look down at a display), i'm never buying another product without it.

the omnifi is quite a piece of junk (i know, i own one).

the best product i've seen so far is the phatbox. it's being sold by volkswagen and audi as optional equipment. the kenwood music keg is a derivative of the phatbox that only works with kenwood stereos, but you can buy a phatbox that works with many types of car stereos.

there are several other makers of in-car mp3 players. ssi neo, the omnifi, the now defunct empeg/riocar. none of these made any inroad with real manufacturers because of poor quality and terrible usability. after having used the phatbox SSA interface (it talks to you, so you can find your songs without ever having to look down at a display), i'm never buying another product without it.

Bah! to all those who made cracks about dayton ohio. You forget we host the Hamvention.

Regardless, this guys got the right idea. Personally I decided not to put a computer in my car after ludacris sang about it. However, I still use a laptop and a digital FM converter to play my music.

But really, think about it. Shouldn't this be the way car audio is headed. No need for damn disk. Also, CD are easy, frequent targets for thieves. If your neighbors don't see the wank stealing the server out of the back of your car, then they should buy your replacement. The e450 is a little big. I mean where are the 4 15"s gonna go. And wouldn't the vibration of my subs kill the E450.

Even so, when you compare the price of a computer to that of the phatbox there isn't much difference. Really the computer is more fun and could very well be put to more use. Think replacing the head unit with a touch screen that runs software you wrote to control the system. Who needs a dvd nav system. Put the GPS receiver and the software rigth on the computer. Think wireless file server so you can listen to the music on your car at your desk at work and then transfer all your hard work to the backup car system.

This guy isn't the first person to put a computer in his car. He definitely won't be the last. While there will still be a solid market for component systems, I strongly believe that portable, multifunction car systems will become the norm within 10 years.

I wrote the following recently in my blog:

I've been thinking lately about the iPod phenomenon. In many ways, it seems to repeating past patterns similar to the competition of Microsoft versus Apple.

Steve Jobs is loath to share Apple technology and partnerships with anyone else. Despite embracing Open Source in the form of the BSD kernel for OS X and adopting other GPL projects such as KDE for the Safari browser, Apple does not seem interested in reciprocating.

Currently, the iPod and the Mini iPod are the darlings of digital cognoscenti. With good reason, it is a slick product with good fundamental design. I would wager even its elevated price even makes it appealing in some perverse way as well. However, lifting the lid, just a little bit, may reveal some trouble down the road.

The recent news about Real making an overture to Apple to open up its proprietary cloaked DRM AAC format has revealed some of Apple's thinking. While Real's overture was in some ways rather pathetic, it did point out a growing problem that will be interesting to see Apple navigate.

The problem as I see it is that Apple by retaining sole control and manufacture of the iPod and the DRM AAC format it is ultimately in danger or winning the battle but losing the war in almost exactly the same way they lost the OS war with Microsoft.

Of course, I am referring to the difference in how Microsoft is pursuing the same market. In contrast to Apple, Microsoft has licenced the WMA/WMV codec far and wide to third party hardware and software manufacturers. The current WMA codec has fared very well in codec shootouts and has several unique capabilities. For example, while Apple has just in the past few days introduced a lossless compression option to their codec, WMA has had this option for nearly two years. In addition, WMA also supports multi-channel which as had limited application in such releases as Peter Gabriel's recent UP release. More obscurely, Microsoft gobbled up Pacific Microsonics and their HDCD technology in an acquisition several years ago.

What really has momentum is the rapidly expanding universe of diverse hardware products supporting WMA. From DVD players to hundreds of portable players there is support for WMA. This includes such applications as the PhatNoise car audio system that uses a removable hard drive for audio storage. The recent adoption by the DVD Forum of the WMV format in the next DVD standard is a real watershed event. This guarantees that WMA/WMV files will be supported in all future DVD players! On top of this, I have heard that future direct to digital movie theaters will employ WMV technology. Finally, I recently read that the new VOOM HD Satellite service will be using WMV for broadcasting their standard definition channels. See announcements. A recent editorial by Paul Thurrott at Wininfo.com talks about the upcoming new version of the Windows Media Players will incorporate the ability for leasing music rather than outright ownership. This would allow an individual to access as much music as he wants for a fixed fee and be able to play it on portable players, etc. Paul has taken heat for some of his pronouncements but I think he may be right in describing this as a paradigm shift.

So, Microsoft, by widely disseminating the WMA/WMV technology and setting licensing costs very cheaply it has once again positioned itself to possibly own the standard of audio/video distribution just as it currently owns the desktop computing standard.

Apple, by contrast, could find that while it owned the early lead in music distribution ultimately is relegated to single digit market share once again. It is fascinating to observe that this is inherently a Steve Jobs blind spot which repeats itself over and over again.

The future will indeed be televised.

this was recently the subject of a funny april fool's joke.

I saw that show a little while ago. I kept thinking the same thing over & over. Why didn't he just get a Phatnoise? Much easier interface IMHO.

not quite true. the real reasons most players don't support ogg are:

1. flash costs money. the amount of sales generated from adding ogg support are not sufficient to justify adding the additional 128kb of flash or so that would be required to throw in an ogg decoder on every single device shipped. you'll notice that most harddrive based devices (such as the phatbox or audiotron) have quickly added ogg support, since it essentially costs them nothing.

2. integer-math ogg decoders have not been around for too long, and are still fairly processor intensive. as optimizations to the tremor code occur, expect to see more ogg implementations out there.

how about a phatbox harddrive-based player for your car? there is probably one that is compatible with your truck's existing headunit (so you don't need to buy a new one), and you can have 20-60 gigs of music, instead of shuffling cd's. and yes it does support ogg.

this product is sold directly at audi and vw dealers so you can bet it's a pretty solid product. it's also the same as the kenwood music keg, but works with non-kenwood stereos.

i have one and i love it. i can't imagine having to deal with switching cd's to find my music ever again.

• Neuros Digital Audio Computer
• Rio Karma 20 (Picture)
• PhatNoise's PhatBox, Kenwood's Music Keg (Powered by PhatNoise) These are in-car players that are installed into the trunk of your car and hooked up to your car stereo. Both players run ARM-Linux and support playback of FLAC files. Beta firmware to support Ogg Vorbis is available at http://phatbox.sixpak.org/phatbox/ogg.phtml.
• KISS Technology's DP-450 and DP-500 DVD Players
• MPST Digital Jukebox
• Freemax FW-960
• iRiver iHP-120, iHP-100, iGP-100, possibly others
• Umax/Yamada have a few standalone DVD players that support Vorbis.
• Neuston provides a standalone DVD player (model DVX-1201) that supports Vorbis.
• Samsung The MCD-CM600 is now available in Korea. It is a CD portable that can play Vorbis, MP3, and WMA. Page with photo of MCD-CM600. Closeup of MCD-CM600.

how about a phatbox car mp3 player. it plugs into your stock stereo and emulates a cd changer with voice feedback. linux software is here. up to 60 gigs.

or a kenwood music keg.

or a vw/audi phatbox.

can you tell i love this product? works with the audio controls on my steering wheel. no need to look down at an ipod screen while speeding.

Phatnoise 20GB removable MP3 player, that works with your factory changer controls. Seems to be based on the Iomega's peerless drive technology. Same thing as the Kenwood Music Keg, but works with factory changer controls.

Info here.

-ted

PhatBox

I know, it's not cheap and doesn't support vorbis files and the manager is Windows only.

But to me the ability to control it through my factory head unit makes that a non-issue.

It does support mp3, wma, flac and audible.

If I wasn't leasing my car I would have gotten one as soon as Audi officially supported and started installing them.

sooner than you think.

the phatbox and kenwood music keg already support ogg.

volkswagen and audi sell these as dealer installed options. and they are compatible with a wide range of car stereos.

here's how to play ogg files on it!

sooner than you think.

the phatbox and kenwood music keg already support ogg.

volkswagen and audi sell these as dealer installed options. and they are compatible with a wide range of car stereos.

here's how to play ogg files on it!

My first /. post and I hit submit instead of preview. Please accept my sorries ...

PhatNoise product page

Press release

actually, it does work with many factory headunits.
volkswagen and audi (at least in the US) now sell phatboxes in their dealerships as dealer-installed options. you can get them for bmw's, fords, toyota, nissan, honda, as well as kenwood and sony, and some others. check out their list of compatible products.
i have one and it totally kicks ass. haven't had to listen to clearchannel radio in over a year.

Check out PhatNoise. I just put the Kenwood eXcelon Music Keg into our new ride, and LOVE it. I might be getting another one for the other car. Post a reply if you're interested in seeing some pix of the install - I don't want to overload the servers at the forums where they're hosted.

Made by PhatNoise. It appears as a CD changer to your head unit, and has a removable drive with cradle for your pc.

oh yeah, and here's some compatibility info on various head units that are supported. not suprisingly, the kenwood unit only supports kenwood heads. i can however highly recommend kenwood's in-dash mp3 players. just burn a cdr with your mp3s and hit the road. you're still left juggling cds, but with roughly 10-12 albums on each disc it's at least a little easier. the top of the line model (KDC-X959) even allows you to upload your own mpgs and jpgs to the unit for display on the road. i like it so much i run a site for 959 movies to download and info on hacking the movie format for optimal playback (and even a handy perl script to do it for ya!).

although it probably won't connect to your factory head unit (the radio itself), the the phatnoise music box is an mp3 player that runs linux, supports mp3 and ogg, and connects to many makes of head units through their cd changer controls presenting cd text information to the head unit from id3 tags or filenames. they've since sold the rights to the product to kenwood, who now sell it as the music keg in 10 and 20gb version. the hard drive comes in a removable cartidge, and the system includes a usb docking cradle. the thing looks like a typical car amp, so you just grab the hd from the unit and slap it into the cradle to transfer your songs back and forth.

... I'm pleased with the AAC support and the iPod update (maybe even LONGER battery life than 1.2.6), but this freshening isn't terribly innovative or interesting..

Music service? Hmm. There needs to be a 'grab bag' discount, an Audible-style subscription (20 tracks/mo for $10 is about right), et al.

Perhaps the new docking station is step 1 in the ongoing struggle in audio integration, eventually leading to a Car CD changer emulator.

And someday, a video iPod. Who needs a remote control if you have a touchscreen? DVD menus are designed for use on PCs anyway, sometimes abominably so, and worst case you can put a T68-style joystick on it..

windows media has been available on linux-based devices for years. microsoft has released wma decoders for arm- and mips-based linux systems (as well as other os's). the phatnoise car audio system (aka kenwood music keg) has been playing wma for 2 years now (it's a car mp3 player running linux on arm).

windows media drm, on the other hand, has not been available until now. however, the upcoming release of the mercury system, linux (and other os) based embedded systems will be able to play drm'd wma files (without additional hardware support). note that this is a "write only" type of scheme, where the files will be useless if you pull them off the device (unless it's on the windows desktop that created them).

make sure the players support upgradeable firmware for future codec upgrades

you are definitely right about firmware upgrades. there is no reason a player that can read a filesystem should not be able to play any format that can be stored on it (obviously it must have enough horsepower to do so).
a good example is that i have been able to upgrade the firmware on my car mp3 player (Kenwood Music Keg) to play Ogg (and FLAC). apparently it's made by this company and they keep updating the software (it runs linux, you can see the system files on the harddrive) to support more features. very cool to have paid for something and then gain additional functionality at no cost.

My car player has been able to play Vorbis ever since Tremor came out.

well, the kenwood music keg and phatnoise phatbox support both ogg vorbis and flac (in addition to mp3 and wma). flac has turned out to be the best way to keep single session recordings (ie, concert recordings) continuous without gaps on digital music players. i'm guessing we'll be seeing more firmare upgradeable devices start adding support for flac real soon now.

well, my phatbox already plays both flac and ogg (in my car). if they're merging, does this mean i'm losing a media format?

Personally I prefer the PhatNoise PhatBox. Supports MP3, FLAC, Windows Media, Audible, and soon to support Ogg (available in alpha test now). It comes in either 20 GB or 40 GB carts and interfaces with a bunch of head units. Also the Kenwood Audio Keg is the same thing (licensed PhatNoise). It uses 10 GB carts and works only with Kenwood Headunits (I got an Audio Keg myself). There are a lot of cool features including m3u playlists and text-to-speech technology to announce the name of each playlist.

The Phatnoise Car Audio System and Kenwood Music Keg both run Linux (on an ARM processor) and support WMA audio. While the Linux kernel is open source, the WMA player is not.