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New MP3 Portables
An anonymous reader writes "This has been a busy week for the announcement of the latest crop of MP3 portables, probably just the start of many more with the holiday season only a few months away. First Samsung has announced their first jukebox model the Yepp YP-900, a 10GB unit using Toshiba's 1.8-inch drive for storage (same one as in the iPod) and eschewing FireWire (400 mbps) for a USB 2.0 (480 mbps) connection to transfer files. Mambo has also announced a jukebox player called the Digital Media-X PhotoBank Jukebox that is more akin to the Archos Jukebox Multimedia in that it can store and display photo files and possibly video files in the future. The Mambo holds 20GB of memory on a more common 2.5-inch hard drive, making it a heavier unit than the YP-900. Like the Yepp, the Mambo also goes with a USB 2.0 connection, heating up the competition between FireWire in digital music portables. The most interesting feature about the Yepp? It also has a MMC/SD card slot to facilitate trading tunes to and from other digital music players. (Take that SDMI). Finally SonicBlue has started shipping replacements for the Rio 600 and the Nike PSA[play 120 (made by Rio for gym workouts). Both the Rio S30S for the exercise-minded and the Rio S10 come with 64MB of memory and are upgradeable to 192MB through MMC flash cards. The S30S comes with an FM radio, while the base-optioned S10 is claiming 35 hours of running time on a single AA battery. Both players transfer files via USB 1.1's 12mbps port."
then it wouldn't be an "mp3" portable. So don't ask.
the ipod is the only mp3 player i have seen that made me go wow. everything else is a joke.
why is it no one has caught with apple yet? the ipod is great but there is room for improvement.
its like no one wishes to actually compete. they arent even copying apple like they usually do. they just aren't doing ANYTHING
Id buy one in a second that had Ogg Vorbis support. anyone know of a portable player that has flashable codecs support?
adventure-today.com
VQF all the way
Do any of these come with short range FM broadcast for easy coupling to your car stereo?
I bought the GF2MX when it hit $90 and a GF3Ti200 when it hit $90. I bought my (older) 11 second buffering sony car discman when those hit $90. (It gets like 80 hours play on a pair of AAs, too, and works flawlessly to this day. Very nice.) So any MP3 player I'm going to buy is going to cost less than a hundred bucks.
I also don't want a device where the media costs more than the machine, which limits my choices to a pretty narrow range. Lik-Sang doesn't even seem to be loading, but that's where I'd ordinarily look for a device like that.
Does anyone know of a very thin CDRW/CDR/CD player which does VBRE MP3s and costs less than $100 which doesn't simply fall apart within a week of the warranty's end?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
..is an iPod that plays OGG and costs $50. The 5GB disk would be fine. C'mon Stevie boy, start dropping those prices.............
I thought we were against MP3?
I'm confused.
Seriously, when are all these big name vendors going to start using a truely free format? I can't imagine that the likes of Sharp or Sony want to be beholden to some german company in a case of patent infringement.
Software piracy is victimless theft.
Don't forget the Nomad Jukebox Zen... http://www.nomadness.net/images/jukebox_zen.jpg
How about paring down the description of the device to a few sentences, like you usually do? You really don't need all the details on the front page.
TheFrood
If you say "I'll probably get modded down for this..." then I will mod you down.
It's time to flush that Minidisc gear!
Score 5, Informative
oh apple when will you do the right thing ?
its libs are BSD !
they are can be compiled via ARM ADS
and its free
how hard is this for them ?
what I really think is the problem is quicktime/iTunes which cant deal with variable bit rate codec's so playing them on the mac is a no no
oh and USB2 connection ?
sure you dont have to pay a buck to apple every time you sell a device but the power has to be a separate plug
2 connections on my audio machine not me
regards
John Jones
Looking at www.sonicblue.com and saw some more info on the players. Some facts that might interest a few.
Supports Microsoft Windows Media digital rights management
Upgradeable to future music formats
http://www.sonicblue.com/audio/rio/s30s.asp
Not to troll, but:
Another crop of mp3 players does not make me excited. Especially the Yepp, which is basically an ugly iPod, it probably has a larger diplacement, too.
Also, the author of the article seems to beleive that USB 2.0 frequently reaches it's theoretical maximum performace and fails to mention that, despite its lower theoretical max, firewire commonly outperforms USB 2.0.
Help I'm a rock.
I like the Ipod but for the Price Ill stick with My sony Minidisc for my MP3 playback!
The Yepp player uses the same drive as the iPod, so it could have exactly the same form factor and weight (specs weren't released, so this si speculation), and has the same capacity. And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire, and is also more commonly available on the PC platform. So why is this "junk"? If anything its good competition.
thats because your a twat
Ive actualy given up trying to write sentances as machines dont understand them
seriously whats your problem whith it dont bitch about it send in a patch or have a cup of shut the fsck up
regards
AC
Once SATA gets more of a foothold... I don't see what would be stopping the use of SATA to replace all these other options, when speed is of importance, considering it is more than three times faster than USB2.0 or Firewire.
i al ATA_FAQ.asp
Cable length spec is 1 meter, hot swap.... And the interface is basically free. Imagine that the device already uses a SATA hard disk internally, you just pop the disk out and plug it in to your computer, that way the external device doesn't have to have electronics to support any connections to a host.
Power connections may need some tweaking, I'm not sure how that would be handled. On a side note, MS says about SATA hot swap:
When does Microsoft plan to support true "hot plug" for Serial ATA devices?
The Microsoft plan of record is to provide support in the next version of the Windows operating system.
http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/tech/storage/ser
This seems like a reasonable future direction for this to go in. It won't happen right away, but it almost seems inevitable now that SATA is finally snowballing.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
The problem there is that Slashdot is engaging in blatant advertising with "New Toys Soon To Come!!" stories like this. Hiding the details inside the article would result in less people clicking through to see them. We can't have that.
Check out the new MiniDisc Recorders. They have the new NetMD technology, that lets you drag and drop mp3's to an MD at 32x real-time. And MDLP lets you record up to 320 minutes in stereo on a $1.50 disc. They have a USB port built into the unit. The Sony MZ-n505 Model is only $135, now that's a damn good deal.
There's nothing wrong with anything - Phillip J. Fry
It's about time we got some decent USB 2.0 players to compete with the iPod. While the iPod is a nice player and all, I'm not prepared to fork over even more money for a firewiire card when I have 4 perfectly good USB 2.0 ports on my motherboard, which are faster. Plus, people with USB 1 can still use the player until they upgrade. With Apple hardware also supporting USB 2.0, it is a no-brainer choice over firewire in my opinion. This FM tuner on the Yepp is also a very nice feature, especially for switching over to catch the news or something.
I have an archos jukebox, which uses the traditional 2.5 inch HD. Even though I never had any problem with it, given the choice I would go for a player with a smaller harddisk. The biggest problem with jukebox is( even though its much smaller than creative nomad) that its too big to comfortably put in the back pocket of regular jeans or trousers. So if you are a regular guy who wears regular jeans, you will have a big problem because you have to always carry it in your hand, which aint so cool. If you are really insistent on putting it in the rear pocket, almost certainly U will push some buttons accidently because it fits too closely. I dont know if this fact bothers other ppl, but it bothers me for sure. So if you are planning to buy a mp3 player, dd consider this as well.
So in my opinion it makes sense to go for a samsung and if you have the money, for the ipod.
What's under yellowstone?
Let's not forget about the iRiver iFP-180T. It's a fixed flash-based player with 128MB of RAM. Although they haven't officially announced it in the US, Best Buy apparently has the exclusive distribution rights and is already shelving them. Rumor has it they will be advertised in their flyers for tomorrow's newspapers. I picked on up a couple days ago for the reasonable price of $140. For those on a budget, they also have a 64MB model for $100 and a 32MB for ... $70 (I think).
It's a tiny little thing, slightly larger than a bic lighter. Unfortunately, this means no storage upgrades. But it does have a very nice display, good battery life, ships with decent earbud headphones (Sennheiser mx300) and it supports Japanese fonts (something important to me...)
iRiver does offer upgradeable firmware. Plenty of people have been demanding ogg support and they claim they want to support it. Their engineers are currently evaluating the ability to add it. Interesting side note, the CEO of Xiph, Emmett Plant, posted to the iRiver user boards and offered support from their engineers to get it done.
But I digress. Despite a few minor short comings, I think this is a great little digital music player.
why not just make a portable audio player that allows you to flash any type of audio decoder into it. So when new versions/better formats come out, you just flash your player and you can play the new format.
they do apple use's a hardware MP3 decoder with a ARM7 much like the rio's so they could infact play windows media if they really wanted
you get upgardes via apple support infact I just downloaded a new firmware to allow it to act as a calander/phone book
Because then you wouldn't make money off of selling the next player when the old one isn't good enough any more?
this is of course true to an extent it is after all what the market will take most players claim that they are software upgrades and they fix bugs this way
regards
John Jones
why not just make a portable audio player that allows you to flash any type of audio decoder into it
Apparently, it's cheaper to build an MP3 player from a 4,000-gate 6502 processor plus a dedicated MP2/MP3 decoder than it is to include a general-purpose DSP that's fast enough for real-time playback.
Will I retire or break 10K?
What I wanted was a MP3 player that could be used under water. Those FM radios made for swimming have terrible tuning, specially when you dive a few inches (flip turn, for instance), and usually seek for another station when that happens. I understand the problems of doing a casette player for under water use (size, movable parts, water proof issues of openable containers), but a MP3 player seems perfect. That would be a sports friendly player.
I think there must be two distinct groups at SonicBlue designing MP3 players. One does fairly standard players, often sold under somebody else's label. The other grinds out these strange backpack players.
What the second group is smoking is one of the great mysteries of our time. The players and backpacks are filled with strange, inexplicable features. On the other hand, this series is one of the few that supports bookmarks, which are essential to us spoken word types.
then again 7 or 8 years ago mention mp3 and people had not heard of that
ogg because its free means not having to pay people for their libs which means reduced costs and so reduced cost to consumer (the fact that large companys have already payed does not mean its not true)
AND
its what I think is right
we can have an opinion infact they are credited to us in the small print at the bottom of this page
if your writeing a music app that is fairly self contained and your part of a small company I would not put MP3 in it because of the law simple as that
regards
John Jones
i thought mp3 was evil.
oh wait today is an mp3s are hip and trendy day.
It's tuesdays and sundays thats mp3s are evil.
ok i see, it's easy to get confused with all the waffling around here.
I've been looking (truly, quickly) at (MP3) players, CD players and stereo systems and I was hoping to see a few advertising OGG playback. So far I haven't been able to find any digital hardware equipment (not a computer) that would play ogg off-the-shelf.
If I'd find a reasonably priced player, preferably CD, that would play ogg I would buy it. I own a relatively small collection of music (~1GB) 80% of which is MP3 but I'm starting to rip my new CDs with ogg.
Anyone knows of CD players that read ogg files on CDs?
Disclaimer: I don't care about people saying "you stupid! just rip your CDs in MP3" because they don't get the point. I don't want to start a fanatic war on ogg vs. mp3 either because it misses the point too. I just want to listen to ogg files because I like it.
And don't talk to me about an FM radio. With 1000's of songs and playlists based on music style to ratings (ala iTunes) why the hell would I want to listen to a radio? Please, no replys unless you have USED an iPod... if you havn't, treat yourself and enjoy! Amazing design and usability WITH great construction (virtual wheel too! Woot!)
Too much text, all in italics. Whatever happened to summaries, or are the editors just refusing to do any editing now?
Oh Apple, when will you do the right thing? The libraries for Ogg Vorbis decoding are released under the BSD license. They can be compiled via [either GCC or] ARM ADS and its free
GCC and the Tremor library (integer arithmetic Vorbis decoder) are free software, but ARM ADS software is hardly "free". It's proprietary and $6,000 per seat.
How hard is this for them? What I really think is the problem is that QuickTime and iTunes cannot deal with variable bit rate audio codecs, so playing them on Mac OS is a no-no.
Actually, the big problem is that the iPod player runs audio through a chip that takes MP3 audio on one pin and produces PCM audio on another. It's much harder to change hardware than software.
Oh, and USB2 connection? Sure you don't have to pay a buck to apple every time you sell a device, but the power has to be a separate plug.
Not necessarily. USB 2.0 devices can be bus-powered. Besides, you need batteries anyway for when the device is disconnected from the host computer.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I was hoping for a "surfing habits of the blowfly" version, or maybe "Mambo Theology"....
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
why USB ?
because firewire you have to pay apple for every device you ship (unless your sony who apple love)
USB is a standard that is Open and backwards compatable and people love that because it works with all your old hardware
but it might have to have 2 ports one for power and one for USB which kind of sucks (although this has changed in USB 2 it depends on the power )
unlike the firewire that you can draw a decent amount of power from
regards
John Jones
I dunno about you, but I will find the player I want independent of bus interface and THEN, and only then, will I decide that I am not too cheap for
AN EIGHTEEN DOLLAR PART!!!
Sorry 'bout that.
El Karma: excelente(principalmente la suma de moderación hecha a los comentarios de los usuarios)
ADS and SDT is what most people use because you can use MultICE and the libs are very good its what I presume the engineers are using
;-)
I didnt think that the chip they used was brain dead you live you learn (-;
I knew that USB2 could draw more current than USB1.1 is it really that much ?
(enough to power a drive and recharge the battery ? if so cool
regards
John Jones
I don't understand why there are no popular Compact Flash-based or microdrive-based mp3 players?
Wouldn't a microdrive-based player be a *lot* smaller, weigh less and use less power - and thus be more versatile - than most of the other players with a capacity on the order of a gigabyte (and who wants more than 1GB - that's a heck of a lot of mp3s)? If 1,073,741,824 bytes isn't enough, just upgrade by putting a bigger drive in. If a miniature spinning disk is too unreliable, then just put a flash-based memory unit it. You could even plug in wireless card and play from a network!
It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do.
- Jerome Klapka Jerome
Is there anywhere I can get popular audiobooks in mp3 format? I go to the gym every day, and it'd be handy to be able to load a book into an mp3-portable and listen to book while on the elliptical machines.
I hesitate to deal with audiobooks on CD, but only because I don't want to pay CD-prices for a book that I'll probably only "read" once. As a corollary, I have no problem with paying for an mp3-audiobook, just as long as its priced such that could still be affordable even if I only listen to it once through.
PS: Yes, I'd normally ask "where can I find books in Ogg format?", except that I know of no portable players that can play Oggs :(.
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
I have been using the Yepp YP-700 for workouts, it works great, 128 megs, with upgradable flash too. i wear it on my arm via a homemade workout-mp3 player-holder... if you have the same and want one, email me for instructions.
-r-
I'm confused. Does this mean I could potentially use this thing as an external ram disk (must be AC power only), or does mean that just mean that it might show up on ebay gutted and outfitted to hold 20 1gb DDR sticks?
I just put a JVC head unit in my car. It plays MP3 and also has a front panel input. Can plug in WalkMan, iPod, etc. no problem.
Apparently, you have never read a critical review of any Bose audio products.
Yeah, I think he kinda blew his credibility by looking to Bose for anything but great marketing.
- Apple overnights me a box
- I stick ipod in box
- I call to have the shipping company pick up box
- Apple sends me a brand new ipod, arrives 2 days later
That's what I call service, most of the other players I've seen have a very limited warranty and the companies are almost guaranteed to object to a replacement. Apple was amazing and they should be, with the recent release of the ipod for windows, they are bound to get a few converts if they keep that level of service.Listen Carefully: No one but a small group of linux zealots gives a flying fuck about ogg vorbis. MP3 is too widespread and is the defacto standard now. Ogg is just about as popular as VQF in terms of market saturation.
Now if ogg is that important to you then buy something with upgradable firmware just in case.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The PC iPod comes with MusicMatch and a plugin to interface with the device. But that software sucks royally, and chose to go with Ephpod (www.ephpod.com) instead. It's free software, and does a decent job of transferring songs and handling playlists. It's definitely not perfect, but its good enough to switch from MusicMatch altogether.
There's also XPlay, but the software costs $30, and was mainly useful for interfacing with Mac-formatted iPods. Now that there are FAT-32 iPods, I don't really see the need for it anymore.
If only Apple released a version of iTunes for Windows. Surely it couldn't be that hard! I think they made a big mistake by not doing so. Newbies are going to use MusicMatch and assume that the iPod sucks since the Windows interface is so shitty, not being aware that other alternatives are there.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
I'm ready for a tiny video player. A small color screen, TV and FM tuner, 20GB+ HD and maybe a CD or DVD drive. Add a camera and you get a camcorder, too.
Archos has something similar coming out, but the screen is too small.
Frankly whether it has USB 2 or Firewire is really an uninteresting question -- who really cares? Whichever it has, that's the interface you use. If you don't have that interface, you buy one. Done deal. The interesting questions are:
1) Is the user interface usable?
2) How long is the battery life?
3) How big is it?
4) When will it support Ogg Vorbis format?
5) Is the user interface usable?
The only one I know of that has gained any popularity is the NexII from Frontier labs. And yes it's small, versatile and has low power consumption. I bought one since I own a CF based digital camera and wanted compatible media. I got a 256 meg CF card for $150 (cdn) and haven't looked back. .ogg fans, Frontier Labs has commented that they are "seriously considering" adding .ogg support in an upcoming firmware. *fingers crossed*
In addition, for those
... comparing the sound quality of any of these codecs at low bitrates is like trying to decide which kind of feces smells the worst.
:P
They *all* suck at anything less than 128Kb/sec, and only WMA sounds close to FM radio *at* 128.
I never use anything less than 192Kb, and even then it's just for background filler while I code. Unlike many of you kiddies who destroyed your ears with Walkmans, *I* can still hear.
You know where you are? You're in the $PATH, baby. You're gonna get executed!
If only Apple released a version of iTunes for Windows. Surely it couldn't be that hard! I think they made a big mistake by not doing so.
I keep hearing that exact sentiment and I don't know if it's really true or not but at the very least there could be another way of looking at it. In the first scenario Apple made a huge mistake when not making a "Windows version" of iPod because that's just plain lost sales! Similarly, Apple makes a huge mistake when not porting iTunes because the bundled Windows software sucks ass and will impact sales of Windows iPods...again, lost sales.
The second way of looking at it goes a bit like this. Apple doesn't hurry to port the iPod because the lure of using one is enough to drum up some computer sales. Maybe not the same number of computer sales as the lost iPod sales, but computers are higher ticket items and presumably Apple makes more money on them. Similarly, Apple doesn't bother porting iTunes because it's one of those things that make the Mac look really good compared to the PC - again, more computer sales.
Which scenario is closer to the truth? Only Apple knows and even they don't know for sure because you can't count sales you didn't get. We can assume, however, that they are the most interested party when it comes to Apple sales and revenues...and thus they probably did their homework before deciding how to play it.
Which brings me to my final point: why are there an endless stream of second-guessers who figure they know that Apple would have made more sales/money if they had done differently?
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
Is there any product out on the market today that is both an mp3 player and a cell phone? I've had zilch luck trying to find a device with those capabilities... :(
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
I have and 80 gig USB 2.0 portable hardrive. It runs fine under 98,2000, and xp at USB 2.0 there is support, just a driver issue. My drive is an IBM Desktar that I picked up for 125 bucks. I use it as a backup and also have another one that I have just about every driver, OS, ISO, that a tech guy needs and it sits in my tool kit next to a usb 2.0 pci card. Case I need something on site and I don't have the cd and usb 1 is too slow.
Do a little research.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
What I am waiting for is an MP3 player with bluetooth that will automatically "discover" its relatives in a subway, office, concert etc and swap songs using predefined criteria. Of course it should also be able to talk to PCs and send songs manually, using bluetooth multicast. This will get RIAA off our backs. Unless they try to harass people in subways, then they'll probably just get mugged.
But the question is, do they play ogg?
And if they can't, meybe they can be hacked?
How many people have written companies since Teremor?
I stand somewhat corrected! Having a cdplayer do MP3's and ogg is a nice mix. 640 megs on an inexpensive device, on blanks that cost pennies... not bad!
Can anyone recommend a good MP3+OGG seperates
unit i can attach to my Hi-fi, and upload to
via my home LAN (standand CAT5 ethernet). With
10-100G of HD, and no loud fans. I was looking
to homebrew one, but i don't really have the
time. I Don't want to spend more than £300 (UK pounds), can anyone help?
Are there any MP3 players with both Firewire and USB 1.1 ports? I'd like to have Firewire to use between my Macs, but it would be nice to have a "lowest-common-denominator" too (since the PCs we've got around here don't have Firewire or USB 2.0, and my Macs don't have USB 2.0 either). Or, is there any kind of Firewire->USB 1.1 adapter out there, so I could (say) plug an iPod into a PC using it?
When I was in the market for a 20GB player, I narrowed it down to an Archos and Nomad. Both were the same on paper, but the Nomad had great sound quality (while the Archos' was deplorable), and the Nomad's interface was much more intuitive and easier to navigate. These two features make or break your experience with a player, but you can't read about them on the back-of-the-box description. If possible, buy a couple players from Best Buy et al, use them for a couple days, then return them.
MMC card ? Expensive and not popular.
No Ogg ? I would stick with My Nomad II which already
has radio, 192MB memory and 10 hours running time.
Interesting.
I have iTunes here, with a library of around a thousand mp3s mp3s I've ripped myself and encoded using lame --r3mix. The same mp3s have been used in QuickTime many times, and are also sitting on my iPod.
Are you sure you have a clue what you're talking about?
I switched from various brands of PCs to using Macs about seven years ago. On the rare times when I've had an issue with a Mac that was covered by warranty, I've had incredible service just like what you describe. In fact, there was one time when I did something to cause a hard drive to die. I knew what I'd done and was very willing to pay to have it fixed. The guy said they'd cover it anyway. To be honest, service like that is a big part of the reason I happily pay a few more dollars for a Mac. I don't WANT Apple to start allowing cheap clones again, because the excellent service is part of what I'm paying for when I buy their hardware.
iPAQ touchscreen dies. Send you a box, stick iPAQ in box, shipper picks up... and then it differs from there. HPAQ bitches about how Linux is loaded on there. They try to charge $150. They send iPAQ back. I replace bootloader with CE bootloader. I send it back. They say "We found Linux." I say "Update the problem description! They say "Ok, fixed." They ship it back with a replaced stylus lock. Touchscreen still not sensing right. Finally, call and scream. Compaq says "Someone might get back to you within 48 hours." Later that night, someone calls: "We're sorry. Linux really was supported on the iPAQ. We're shipping you a new one." Courier arrives next day, delivering new iPAQ, and asking for old one. New iPAQ works.
Lesson: Wipe it clean before sending it back.
--j
Hmm, I was going to ask about ehci drivers for linux, but I found the answer via google:
Q: Does Linux talk to USB 2.0 devices?
A: Yes, in two ways. First the backward-compatible way: all high speed (480 Mbit/sec) devices can be used at full speed (12 Mbit/sec) in all current Linux kernels. Second if you have the EHCI driver, and a USB 2.0 host controller (EHCI, currently available as add-on PCI cards) then you can use these devices at high speed. EHCI support is available in the Linux 2.5 development kernels, and also in 2.4.19 kernels. (The 2.4.19 code should handle USB disks nicely, but for more complete USB 2.0 support, use 2.5 instead.) At this writing the EHCI driver is labeled "experimental".
-no broken link
Anyone who is interested in signing a petition to add OGG support to the Ipod, Here's the link!
I didn't sign it, but then, I don't really care.
El Karma: excelente(principalmente la suma de moderación hecha a los comentarios de los usuarios)
... if you're game, so am I. ;-)
I totally disagree about artifacts in WMA @128 vs. the other codecs mentioned, but that is perhaps due to our respective high frequency hearing abilities.
WMA doesn't trash tthe highs as badly as other codecs, IMO -- instead of aliasing like crazy like, say, MP3, WMA merely sounds rolled off on the top end -- which is a far better way to handle things, again IMO. At higher bitrates, WMA starts to sound like Sony's ATRAC (MiniDisc codec, if you need reminding), an impressive feat.
Having said that, it's pretty amazing how well Ogg does at 64Kb. It's not listenable, but it comes pretty darn close to sounding like poorly-encoded 128Kb MP3.
the only portable ogg player there is is the sharp zaurus. otherwise it cant be done on non floating-point processors, yet that is. read this article here for the nitty gritty.
I hate sigs.
Ok, I know this is a bit offtopic, but it's a question nobody seems to know the answer too.
I'm very very close to buying an ipod (10gig version.) I've had a a rio 300, nomad jukebox, and now one of those panasonic SD devices. I decided I want a small device that holds lots of music with an intutive interface, hence I'm getting the iPod.
But, I live in a Mac/PC household (ibook and big desktop PC.) Now I want to be able to use my iPod on both machines (or at least have the potential to use them on both.) So do I get the PC version (with the extra PC software) and if I do will that just plug into my ibook (since all the ipod software comes standard in Mac OS X) or will the Windows iPod be locked out of the Mac?
If that's the case, maybe a Mac iPod with ephpod or XPlay would be better? Hmm... Basically, anyone know if the windows ipod works on the mack?
The only difference i'm aware of is the MusicMatch software that comes with the win version.
I see no reason why you cant use a win ipod on a mac.
Especially the iPod since it literally has no moving parts that can't be water proofed. If you want to jog in the rain you have to do it without music.
No one is really trying to make these devices replace their counterparts. I mean, costs aren't coming down, features aren't getting better, usability is still in the toilet and real life features are being neglected.
Water proof devices should be the norm. I mean does anyone even own a wrist watch that isn't? We learned a long time ago that people fall into puddles. Passing cars splash us. Tsunamis hit without warning, etc etc. Shit happens, and if it happens while using your 500$ mp3 player it's magnified by several orders of magnitude.
I know the people designing these things probably have no lives, but the users sure do.
I have and 80 gig USB 2.0 portable hardrive. It runs fine under 98,2000, and xp at USB 2.0 there is support, just a driver issue.
I stand corrected on that one point. Kinda. There do appear to be USB 2.0 interface cards with drivers for older versions of Windows. I assume by "driver issue" you mean that each vendor must provide its own [driver]. I guess whether it runs fine or not is something to take up with your vendor when it doesn't.
You learn something new every day. I don't think that guarantees USB 2.0 more ubiquity than FireWire on the x86 (yet), but it helps.
Yeah, Im not a Big Mac fan either.
Its gonna be charcoaled flesh for me!
From Apple's web site:
Question 9: Can I use my existing iPod for Mac on a PC, or my iPod for Windows on a Mac?
Answer: You can reformat your iPod for Windows into an iPod for Mac, but it is not possible to reconfigure your iPod for Mac to an iPod for Windows. This is because Windows does not support the HFS+ file system and therefore will not see the drive.
You can convert your iPod for Windows into an iPod for Mac by using the iPod for Mac Software Updater on the Apple website. Note that once it is reformatted, it will only work with Macs. You need Mac OS 9.2 or Mac OS X version 10.1 or later to reformat an iPod for Windows into an iPod for Mac.
Using the iPod for Mac on a PC, or using the iPod for Windows on a Mac, is not supported by Apple.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _>8
Too many errors in one post (make fewer).
Anyone know of any open hardware designs of MP3 players (ie, circuit schematics available) that don't use a specialised MP3 decoder chip? I'd like to examine one and then modify it to play Ogg instead.
Specifically I'm after a circuit primarily designed for a single task like this - I don't want to modify something that is otherwise a full-blown PC.
-- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
I can transfer my entire mp3 colletion onto your computer without you having anything other than a firewire card. The so called "anti piracy mechanism" is called a hidden folder.
Random is the New Order.
That's the way forward. Buy the Mac version and get XPlay - then it will work with both machines.
Another poster above explained the situation from Apple's FAQ - the Mac won't see FAT drives and the PC won't see HFS+. XPlay uses a MacDrive driver, included in the package, to add HFS+ support to the PC (for iPods only).
Cheers,
Ian
Overall, the machine is quite good and probably the best on the market. However ther are a few things that it doesn't get right.
First, gap removal -- I have many albums that arte contimuous (live recordings, DJ mixes, classical music, etc.) The iPod provides no gap suppression, so that in between every track there is a noticeable gap of about 1/2 second (or up to five seconds if the hard disk decides to spin up at the same time.) Now, I realize that due to the architecture of most portable mp3 players, gap suppression is not feasible because it requires processing on the decoded audio. So I went and re-encoded all those albums as single mp3s. However, that didn't work well because of:
File size limit: The iPod is very poor at handling files that exceed the size of its 32MB memory buffer. It is incapable of playing music while reading from the hard disk. So if you have a file that is longer than 32mb, it will play the first 32mb, then pause for 3-5 seconds while reading the next 32mb chunk into memory. This means that there is no way to properly listen to continuously recorded albums.
Furthermore, the iPod provides no mechanism for bookmarking or labeling points within a track, so it's impossible for me to see what the title of the current section on my continuously encoded album is. I would find this even more annoying if I listened to audio books.
The backlight is not adjustable, and it's too bright. In a dark room it hurts my eyes.
The backlight, unlike most other kinds of backlight, needs to invert the screen when it's on, which you can see if you take the iPod out into the sunlight. But on a cloudy day, the backlight and the ambient light balance out almost exactly, and the display is unreadable. I can hold down the "Menu" key to turn the backlight off, but that isn't helpful because when I move the wheel the backlight turns on agin immediately. So I have to navigate through the menu system (which is tricky when you can't see the display) to turn off the backlight.
Did I mention the menu interface? The menu interface provides no provision for muscle memory; it cannot be operated by touch. You must be constantly looking at the display while you move the wheel. This makes the iPod downright dangerous for use in the car (which is about 50/70% of where I use the thing). Much of the danger could be alleviated if the wheel provided any sort of tactile feedback -- there is a audible "clicker" you can enable, but you cannot hear it in a noisy environment, or while the music is playing. You cannot adjust the volume unless you are in the "Now Playing" section of the menu interface. If you wanted to turn down the volume without looking at the display, the sequence you have to go through is this:
That's a little much to expect when you're trying to just mute the damn thing while keeping your eyes on the road!
Finally, iTunes seems to have some speed issues in reading files off of CD-ROMs. Off the hard drive is nice and speedy, but from the CD it clocks in at around USB1.0 speeds. I don't know why this is the case.
I would like to know if there are any portable hard-drive based mp3 players which address these issues.
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
... Now I want to be able to use my iPod on both machines (or at least have the potential to use them on both.) ...
My understanding is that iPods can be converted from one platform to another, Win to Mac officially, Mac to Win unofficially. The software needed to reformat the HD (Mac uses HFS+ and Win uses FAT32) and restore system software is available as a download on Mac but is ONLY available for Win on the CD that comes with a Win iPod. There is also a CD-Key required for the Win software. iPods have lightweight security that is supposed to only let them synch with one machine. However it also has a hard drive mode. The Win version can be a removable drive under either platform. Keep in mind that it is a FAT32 filesystem so resource forks get lost, you need to Stuff or otherwise prep Mac files for a non-HFS filesystem.
If only Apple released a version of iTunes for Windows. Surely it couldn't be that hard!
:)
MusicMatch lame? Well Steve did promise a better user experience on the Mac.
To be serious I am not so sure iTunes for Windows would be much better. Look at Apple's premier software package, Quicktime, I've found it to be pretty flaky under Windows. YMMV.
I expect we'll see some of these things play .ogg in the next 6 months to a year.
;)
Don't forget, that an integer-based codec was released by xiph.org under the BSD license...the original article was here towards the beginning of the month.
More memory would be good too since most of my files are either 192kbps MP3s, or Vorbis ripped at quality level 6. (CDex rules!)
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
Recently, one of the best German computing magazines performed an extensive public test of various audio compression codecs, judging Ogg Vorbis as the clear winner. Slashdot article here.
While certainly not a flawless study, it seems a lot more legitimate than what you cite.
I replied to your last FUD, and i'll reply to this one, you fucking idiot. Tremor is released under the BSD, anyone can download and use it. Go die or something.
USB 2.0 has a theoretical transfer ceiling of 480Mb/s.
Firewire has a theoretical transfer ceiling of 400Mb/s.
Supposedly ATA 133 means that hard drives can transfer data at 133MB/s, where everyone here should know (with an off the shelf drive) that in no case whatsoever will you ever max out the channel on one of these UDMA cards for even 2 seconds. U160 SCSI on the other hand with a few drives can really come close to maxxing out the channel at a sustained rate. One of the arrays we have at work runs at 95% of theoretical maximum. Anyone know of a UDMA card pushing even 50% of theoretical?
Engineers that I have talked to, as well as many posts that I have read state that in laboratory conditions USB 2.0 has rarely sustained much more than 1/2 of it's theoretical bandwidth. Furthermore USB is a time-division bus. So if you have 2 devices plugged into a channel each device gets 1/2 of the total bandwidth, 3 devices get 1/3, 4 devices get 1/4, etc.... Firewire is packet based and therefore can support one device using 10% of the bandwidth leaving the other 90% for another devices that can take advantage of it.
USB IMHO really only good for slower order devices that don't have bandwidth needs, du to the above limitations. Firewire was not designed for keyboards and mice, it was designed as a bus for fast external connections. Firewire has the further advantage that it can act as a bus between devices. USB _requires_ a computer. You can plug a Firewire Digi-cam into a Firewire enabled VCR with no computer present. USB does not work that way.
I don't take large storage devices, CD burners, hard drives, MP3 players, digital camcorders (don't even think they bother with USB), seriously if they have a USB connection on them. This is very similar to when I ran Macs and PCs with SCSI and my friends all had parallel crap. If you want cheap USB is built in, if you want better then you may actually have to pay a bit more.
Side note. I would like to see benchmarks for transfers of 256Mb or 1Gb of data to each of these drives by a reputable source. I am interested in exactly how big the differences in transfer time are. MP3 players that hold less than 256Mb are rather useless as far as I am concerned.
Why dont they ever put ethernet ports on these things?
If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done?
Also, I suspect that the iPod uses that horrible Chicago font, which is quite possibly the ugliest font in the world and an insult to the people of Chicago. I know it sounds silly, but I would be prepared not buy one of the players because of this font. It is just so ugly!
My brother was having problems with QT6 under windows. He finally reinstaled it and all is well.
I've been a Mac user since 94 and a Mac owner since 96. I've always been impressed by the function of Apple's products. I liked how they "just worked", but the iPod is the first Apple product that made me really go "WOW"! Even the packaging is beautiful.
If the Windows software for the iPod is really as bad as everyone says, I would just recommend the Media4 software. The iPod itself is just such a gem!
It's mandatory to wash your hands before returning to the land of Dairy Queen.
128MB is enough for around 2 hours of music, so I could see using a 128MB player like I use my cassette walkman (yeah, I'm a dinosaur). If I want to listen to music at school or something, I take the walkman and pick out a cassette or two from my collection on the way out of the house. Choosing a cassette takes just a few seconds. If instead I had to download 128MB at Firewire speed (say 20 seconds) I could tolerate it. But spending several minutes waiting for something to happen that would normally be spontaneous is awful. They really should put an SD slot in the player. It wouldn't make it much bigger, and would allow fast swapping of music. It would also allow storing much more--SD cards are available up to 512 MB, though those still cost a lot.
What I really want is an iPod device that plays Vorbis, has a hard disk and firewire port, and has some internal flash (say 64MB) or an SD slot. It should allow transfering (automatically even) music between the HD and flash. So I could pick out a bunch of tracks on the menu and start listening to them. The player would copy the tracks from HD to flash at high speed while simultaneously playing the audio at normal speed. After a few seconds or a minute, the tracks would all be in flash and the HD would then spin down, keeping the power consumption to the level of a purely flash-based unit. I guess they could even do that with RAM instead of flash, but then it would have to be reloaded if I powered the unit down.
It's because most of the people on slashdot are stupid fucks.
I don't need some cheesy FUD site for my sense of "community".
Anyone who respects slashdot and takes it seriously is a fucking moron.
I think i'm gonna have to start asking that at interviews...
"So ever read slashdot?"
"Ya! It's a totally radical community of freedom loving geektivists who are gonna change the world by watching anime and crappy sci-fi all day! They rock! Microsoft sux0rz!"
"Thanks for coming in, uh we'll let you know...the secretary can show you out"
I like using full sized, over-the-ear headphones (Sony MDR-V6) instead of those awful earbuds or flimsy Walkman-style headphones. I notice that the headphone jack on my laptop can't really produce enough output to drive these phones at normal listening volume. My stereo receiver can drive them easily. Do any of the portable music players have reasonably powerful amplifiers? Of course I still don't want to buy one til they support Vorbis.
Actually the purpose of the site is to line the pockets of the (wannabe) fat cats in the VA Software boardroom.
You thought Slashdot wasn't just more corporate media?
Bwahhaha. You are naive.
and add a USB d/a converter like the Edirol UA-1A (www.edirol.com). The USB converter will give much better audio than the laptop's built-in sound card.
Hey dude didnt mean to come off pissy. It was a long day.
Here is an Intel Faq:
http://www.intel.com/technology/usb/faq.htm
Yeah the drivers are vendor related for the USB 2.0 cards that you can get for 98 boxes but I have used several and have been fine.
My drive supports USB 2.0 and firewire by the way, so I get the best of both worlds.
Down side is that pc's just started shipping with 2.0 support so while this is the perfect movable device for me(size of a large paperback). I generally need to bring the card if I am doing large data dumps or backing up a clients box. Well it did two weeks at a client site as a backup drive while they waited for their tape to be rmaed. Then they didnt want to give it back.
I have two 120 giggers on my machine at home sitting side by side as an attached storage solution and have had no problem enclosures have a little fan in them. And considering again the cost. I paid 160 for each one. you can beat it.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
To add to MagnusDredd's comments...
m p/ 0,24331,3393574,00.htmll d.com/news/0004/26.usb.sh tml
It drives me nuts every time I see this crap about USB 2.0 being faster than FireWire. Firstly, the theoretical maximums are only 80Mbps apart (400 vs 480) so who would care at those speeds?
More importantly is that FireWire's actual speeds leave USB 2.0 in the dust. In many tests FireWire is over 100% faster, and in NONE is it slower, than USB 2.0. Why? Several reasons but, most importantly is that FireWire was made for massive data transfer point-to-point. USB was designed for peripherals of all sorts and requires post processing between your two transfer points, a huge amount of overhead and lost performance when all you want to do is move data. Sure, you wouldn't want a FireWire mouse, but you would only want a USB 2.0 mp3 player, or other mass storage device like hard drive or DV camera, if you were unfortunate enough to buy a PC with USB 2.0 built-in. Given the choice, only the misinformed would choose USB 2.0 over FireWire. And if you really need speed, the rumored next generation of FireWire is going to hit 800Mbps.
A short list of evidence (plenty more where this came from)...
http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/supergeek/ju
http://maccentral.macwor
http://www.barefeats.com/fire26.html
My minidisc player was recently stolen so I'm going to be getting a new portable music device of some sort.
Can you run with an iPod or any of the other hard drive based players? An iPod is my first choice for music, but I don't want to run and destroy the hard drive by having the head smash into the platters. Also I don't want any skipping.
Minutes may be aweful for you, but it's just not that bad for me. Maybe I'm getting patient in my years. I might be more time sensitive if I had ready-made play lists from which to choose. Instead I create a new list every few days based on my mood/tastes that day. Choosing the songs to go with me takes me a few minutes. So it works for me.
Some sort of removable media would be nice for this unit. Such things would have added size and price to it. Both were variables I was trying to keep low.
I like your ideas about a hard drive player. Unfortunately I still wouldn't buy one. I was an accident prone child. While I don't break as many bones or need stitches as often, I still have bouts where my manual dexterity just vanishes. I will inevitably drop anything I carry on a daily basis. I delight in the idea of it having no moving parts, period.
BTW, do you have an mp3 player now? Which one? What's really stopping you?
thank you kindly sir for bringing me up to speed on the latest developments in the ogg movement, and thank you for your incredibly cordial attitude in so doing.
I hate sigs.
No, I don't mean a CD player that can play MP3 CDs. The player has to be able to Is there a player, with recordable storage that can play normal audio CDs?
I have a friend with an old stereo, a good one, that they want to add CD and MP3 support to. But they don't have a CD-R and are unlikely to get one, so the current crop of MP3 CD players don't help much. I saw one that actually lets you record on small CDs, but can't read or write standard CDs. That won't work.
....The speed are equal in all the tests I've seen. And these tests are run with nothing else running. The minute you start soemthing else up, Firewire just kicks USB 2.0's ass. USB depends on the processor for its speed, where Firewire is its own chip. In my opinion far better, besides the fact that you can also charge your iPod while it's connected without needing soem damn power supply.
I first saw the iPod while Christmas shopping last year. If it had windows support I would have impulse bought it on the spot. As always Apple kicks ass at physical design. The iPod is definitely sexy.
This spring I had my discman stolen so it was time to buy an MP3 player. I took a serious look at the iPod, at the time it was as follows: 5GB for $400 and 10GB for $500. Plus firewire adaptor plus the software for the filesystem.
$500+ for an MP3 player? Not Bloody Likely. I don't care how sexy the iPod is, it isn't worth that much.
I decided on the Archos Jukebox 10GB model. It is not perfect but I'm real happy. The physical design is big and garish. I can't stand the rubber baby buggy bumpers. I would have paid $50 for mobile phone battery technology. The menu interface could be better. It took me a while to figure out.
People have been debating the interfaces. I am on the road continously and have my Windows 2000 StinkPad with me. It comes with USB and not Firewire. Firewire is extra cost, hastle and another PCMCIA card to carry and not lose. (I have 4+ with me) I don't particularly care about speed, USB is plenty fast for the amount of transfering I do. I still haven't filled all of my 10GBs.
Somebody made the comment that Apple not selling a Windows compatible would encourage people to buy Apple computers. Get Real! Anyone looking at an MP3 player probably has a computer and I would be real surprised to find out that someone would spend $1000 to make a $400 MP3 player work.
Bottom line: iPod is sexy as can be, Archos Jukebox could be better but bang for $$ the iPod doesn't stack up to the Archos.
Personally I think they did the right thing (from an Apple POV). You release the product as Mac only. Get a lot of people drooling over it who can't actually use it. Maybe persuade some people to drop PC's for Mac's in the process but in short say, "hey, if you want cool. You have to come to our side".
The margin on the iPod's isn't that great. So they wait until the price of Toshiba HD's comes down in price so that the iPod makes a healthy profit (even when they've reduced the price slightly) and then release it to the PC world.
Volia, they're making all the money on the PC owners snapping up a high profit product and at the same time, inconveniancing them, because they don't own a Mac.
Which brings me to my final point: why are there an endless stream of second-guessers who figure they know that Apple would have made more sales/money if they had done differently?
Apple would have more sales if they'd released the iPod to PC's at the beginning. They made more money this way holding off.
As for second-guessers, they'll always be them - and sometimes they're right too.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Word on the street is that iPod will support Ogg when iTunes 4 is ready. There's, of course, much more to iTunes 4 than Ogg, but it has to wait.
Apple likes to hedge it's bets, even if only for negotiating power. Remember, a software update made the iPod capible of playing Audible.com content, reportedly an MPEG4 file. The iPod can also play WAV and AIFF already.
The question is: this MacWorld or next?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The Creative Nomad Muvo is a new mp3 player that I was excited to see. I can now summarize my experience with two Muvo 128 units a couple of thousand apart in serial numbers.
.wma files. Some files that play fine in MS Media Player and MusicMatch (ripped at 64k) will cause the Muvo to turn itself off at the same point in the music.
;rob
Both units show the following common behaviors:
* They cannot play all
* Both units show corruption of the firmware area of the flash memory. In this state the units will no longer turn on until you have gone through a special recovery procedure which reloads the firmware and hard formats the data area. This happens every day or two with the units I bought. One of the units also showed corruption of the file directory.
In addition the Muvo has the following design misfeature which compromise the functionality of the 128MB unit.
* After a power off the Muvo always returns to the first song! There is no bookmarking, so to hear anything beyond the first half hour or so of music you have to do a lot of pressing of the fast forward button.
* There is no way to control the order of the music other than reformatting and recopying everything in the order desired.
Simplicity is more than doing just a few things, it is also doing them well.
I think the Muvo is a great idea, but in my experiece the execution from Creative in functional simplicity and quality leave a lot to be desired. My guess is that these problems can all be fixed in the firmware, but with only a 90 guarantee, I've returned mine and will wait for better execution of this idea.
Scotty: Captain, we din' can reference it!
Kirk: Analysis, Mr. Spock?
Spock: Captain, it doesn't appear in the symbol table.
Kirk: Then it's of external origin?
Spock: Affirmative.
Kirk: Mr. Sulu, go to pass two.
Sulu: Aye aye, sir, going to pass two.
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