Dell DJ: Yet Another MP3 Player

X Bass writes "Available Tuesday, Dell's 15 and 20GB DJ adds to the growing field of iPod wannabes. Is it worthy or is it just another player that falls short of the iPod's greatness?"

Comments

a link that doesn't suck

[jbellis]

here

I'm probably not the only one more interested in photos than in learning that it has a 3.6h charge time. :)

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Ianoo]

I'm starting to get fed up with review sites that have so many adverts they don't bother to actually include a picture of the product they're talking about. CNET is a big offender, as is Anandtech, but the site on the end of this link is just as bad. I mean, it's a cliche but a picture really does tell a thousand words.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[YanceyAI]

Damnit!

I looked and couldn't find one. I'd mod you up if I hadn't posted another sucky link below!

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[frankthechicken]

Because of the fact that it will spend most of the time in your pocket, for me the biggest need for an MP3 player has to be weight and size, and measuring 3.9 in X 2.6 in X 0.9 in at 7.6 ounces, it just doen't cut the mustard for me.

Oh and it's hellishly ugly as well, no kudos for flashing that thing around.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[watzinaneihm]

The poster of the story missed a lot of stuff in the blurb. Dell has launched a Musicplayer, a music store, high speed internet connection and a HDTV. Its all there on the page jbellis linked to.
So Dell is no longer a PC maker?

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just curious, do you think the iPod looks cute ?

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[iCEBaLM]

Yeah, the "Dell Digital Music Store" has a great selection, I went to that page and imagine my surprise at seeing:

Check out Hoobastank's newest single!

I had to read that name atleast 5 times, while laughing, to make sure it was real.

-- iCEBaLM

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[bigbigbison]

Ads are irritating. However, this is from techTV, a tv channel. They want you to watch their shows to see the reviews. So while it may stink that there aren't pictures of the thing, the main purpose of the site is for people who have watched the show to go and read the review.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[twbecker]

Have you seen what Gateway is selling lately?

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[self assembled struc]

wait a second...

you signed your post "iCEBaLM" and you're making fun of a band named "hoobastank."

Pot, meet kettle.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[worm eater]

So Dell is no longer a PC maker?

Yes and no. The music store is just a branded version of the Musicmatch store, so it's not really Dell, but just a convenient partnership. The Dell DJ is just a relatively minor foray into consumer electronics. I wouldn't want to say that Apple is no longer a PC maker because of the iPod, nor that Microsoft is no longer a software maker because of the XBox. I think if the Dell DJ and the HDTVs take off, then Dell could become the next Sony (who just laid of 20,000 workers). But I would stay right now they are just testing the waters.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[jargoone]

So you addressed the feel, and the looks. That's great, but I tend to listen to my mp3 player. It sits on my desk or in my car, and I don't give a rat's ass about people being unimpressed by my choice of electronics.

Not everybody is as self-conscious, and has the same needs, as you.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[jared_hanson]

Imagine that, offering up a download from a reasonably popular band. Huh, who woulda guessed?

Hoobastank made a significant amount of airtime on MTV a year and a half ago, or so. It was their first album, and I assume this single is from their second (possibly forthcoming?) album. Not sure the name of the single, but I'd look it up if I was at my main computer. Descent CD too, real Incubus sounding (though you probably aren't aware of that name either).

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

touche

-- iCEBaLM

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Surlyboi]

Nor does everyone have the same needs as you. Most of the
people I see with iPods are commuters on the subway,
where weight and the ability to slip it into a pocket
definitely do come in handy.

And aesthetics aside, the techTV link says the sound isn't
quite as good. Though that assessment, like the one about
its looks is purely subjective.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[welsh git]

Adzapper programs are useful, though they unfortunately delete adverts on sites where the advert is really justified (like /.) The only reason I ever installed such a plugin to my squid proxy is because of the sites with loads of silly ads, all flashing or pop-ups. A database of "obnoxious ads" rather than 'fair ads' would be better, though very subjective!

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Descent CD? Feh! I've had Descent on CD for years.

Anyways, all joking aside, I'm not the original poster, so here I go.

First off, I've never heard Hoobastank, at least not that I'm aware of. I've seen interviews with band members though and they always struck me as, to put it mildly, the type of idiots I'd like to punch repeatedly.

Final question: Current or classic Incubus? Not that I really cared for either of the sounds...

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everybody is as self-conscious, and has the same needs, as you.

Uh, maybe thats why he was talking about what was important for him, not that it applied for everyone else.

Not everybody is as moronic, and as dickheaded as you.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

You've heard the old one. It's the Mountain Dew song. You know, "I've been crawling in the dark, looking for the answer." That one.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[gamgee5273]

Or they could be the next late-'90's HP or mid-'90's Apple. Remember the QuickTake? The MacTV? The Pippin, the Apple set-top box, the printers, the floppy discs, the cds...I think Apple even branded small children who just happened to walk by 1 Infinite Loop.

Dell is on the line between becoming the next Sony or completely losing focus, like Apple and HP did in the '90s. The thing to keep in mind about Sony is that they grew to where they are in a different era, and consumer electronics is a completely different starting point than computer manufacturing.

And, also keep in mind that the layoffs are because of losses Sony is incurring due to poor sales of the PS2 (who doesn't have one? I saw a homeless guy playing one the other day...) and their Trinatrons. Once there is a reason for more people to buy a PS2 (or PS X or PS3 or whatever), once they start moving massive amounts of Wega sets (you've seen the commercials, right?) and if there is reason to buy a PSP, then Sony is on top again. Now, will #1 happen any time soon? No, I don't think it'll happen without a move to a $99 price for the PS2 or introduce the PS3 early. But the other two could, possibly, bring some of those 20K jobs back, especially the move to the flat panel sets (the PSP is in an uphill battle against the GameBoy). So Sony is not out of the game. Far from it.

So, if Dell is aiming for Sony, I would suggest they look closely at the lessons Apple and HP have to offer and think very carefully about what they're up against. Sony isn't rolling over for anyone, least of all a cut-rate PC vendor.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

god im listening to there song on there site and wholly god it sounds like every other crap alternative/hiphop/hard combo that has come out since the late 90s....

its winey and trying to be hard but its not at all... same as incubus, limp bisket, perfect circle, creed, evenesence and a host of other shitty bands... actually they sounds like that song that goes like " i i feel so alive, for the very first time and i think i can fly" which makes me want to break a radio. when you sound like every other band, look like every other band, and act like every other band... guess waht you are. a tool of the music industry. and people wonder why i pirate all my musack

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read what Dell announced, you would realize that they are only offering an MP3 player and a TV. They are pushing people toward MusicMatch and they act as a clearinghouse for select broadband providers. You still get access through Earthlink, etc.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Saeger]

Names like "Hoobastank" will only get worse! You see, the increasing number of people in the world taking a bite out of the finite namespace means all the good names have been taken already! :)

--

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[frankthechicken]

It's already been said above, but my main use of an MP3 player is when I'm walking/jogging about, so size/weight/shape are fairly important, especially if I'm also carrying about my mobile, wallet and perhaps PDA as well.

Looks wise I was being slightly flippant, but to be honest I like nice looking things, and given same specifications, I will tend to choose the one I prefer the look of.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

"The only reason I ever installed such a plugin to my squid proxy is because of the sites with loads of silly ads, all flashing or pop-ups."

So stop looking at so much porn, and get some sunshine. You'll haver better luck actually 'getting some' if you meet chicks at the mall.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Good, because my mom has one leg and a uni-boob.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Anonymous Coward]

A bit OT but who cares... How can you put Limp Bisket and Perfect Circle into the same bucket of crap bands?

If there is anything crap about Perfect Circle, it is their similarity to Tool (same singer), and Tool are awesome.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[welsh git]

Ha ha, you're soooo funny. Though I think it would be someone who only looks at porn all the time that thinks that it's ONLY porn that has flashing ads and pop-ups. Do as you say, not as you do. HTH

Acronyms

[Ianoo]

Methinks Slashdot needs a new acronym. YAIPOD, anyone?

Re:Acronyms

[Anonymous Coward]

"Go And See This Rival iPod", or, GASTRIPOD

Re:Acronyms

[Anonymous Coward]

YAIADMBISGTCFI. Only an initialization and not an acronym, but it's 100% appropriate in this case.

Yet Another Invention Apple Didn't Make But Idiots Still Give Them Credit For It. In this case, the MP3 player.

Re:Acronyms

[Pieroxy]

Maybe because they were the first one to come up with a usable and convenient MP3 player? In this regard, they are the first ones to release an MP3 player that doesn't suck. The ranking of the player says it all.

Re:Acronyms

[Anonymous Coward]

you may be an apple fanboy and not even know it. how to tell if you're an apple fanboy:

1) you own an ipod.
2) you run itunes on windows
3) you tell people the ipod is so much better than [insert other mp3 player], without ever having used the other product.

if you're still not sure, try this: take a piece of duct tape, and cover the apple logo on your ipod. have you lost your erection? if so, congratulations, you might be an apple fanboy

the people that chose thig thing over an iPod

[the_2nd_coming]

will get sick of it when tehy get lost in that god awful MMJB Store.

Re:the people that chose thig thing over an iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad they aren't using iTunes, it could erase their data on Mac or disable booting on the PC and save them all sorts of money they otherwise would have spent on music.

picture

[YanceyAI]

Well, I searched and searched for an image because they said this:

Nice interface, smooth, curvy, and durable design, sweetly glowing blue lights...

But the best I could come up with is the animation on their USA site

Also, I thought this was an interesting subhead for the article:

An Affordable and Easy Way to Legally Download Your Favorite Songs and Albums emphasis mine.

Re:picture

[7*6]

I think paying the wrong artists hurts music.

Loads of the greatest classical works ever written were only written so the composer could make some scratch. However a lot of these composers would be working on something amazing on their own time and composed for roalty and richies to put food on the table and get their music heard.

Today the same thing still happens, however I think the artists you're talking about are the ones who are created by the record companies and who are not actually contributing greatly to their art. They just spend money in their spare time and make others look bad.

Paying for good music is a great idea as it keeps great music coming. It's paying for shit that is stupid and detrimental.

Re:picture

[xtink]

You can say that again some times I used to feel bad about illegally downloading music until I watched the episode of MTV cribs with MasterP showing off his 24K gold plated bathroom fixtures. Why if people keep stealing music he might have to plat his toilet in 12K instead of 24K the poor guy. To think he has to suffer this indignity just so I could afford to buy enough gas to drive to work at a crappie minim wage job to put my self through school

Re:picture

[geoffspear]

You should steal the gas too. The CEO of that oil company has a whole lot more money than MasterP.

Re:picture

[rbbs]

It is telling that the page they have on it has no pictures...
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topic s/segtopic.as px/brand/delldj?c=us&l=en&s=gen

compare that to the apple one...
http://www.apple.com/ipod/

ugly beast if you ask me. there is a lot to be said for looking good if you're selling to teenagers and 20 somethings.
i know which i'd rather have.

Re:picture

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You must be a democrat. Somewhere, someone else has more money than you, so you should knowingly commit illegal acts to compensate.

I'm sure in 5 years, when MasterP is panhandling on the street, you'll pay him back, right?

Re:picture

[Zapman]

Here's a reasonable picture. Found in an article a lower post linked to ('dells dud').

picture here

Re:picture

[YanceyAI]

The RIAA is not protecting the rights of the artist. (My husband is a musician.)

Do you really think they spend all that money because they are worried about artists' rights?

MOST publishing rights to songs are owned by PUBLISHING COMPANIES, not the "artists." Only large groups--Metallica and Madonna large--own their music. Hell, even Paul McCartney couldn't afford the rights to the Beetles' music when it went on the auction block.

These companies make millions exploiting talent and "manufacturing" hits.

I'm not condoning stealing from the corporations that make up the RIAA, but don't confuse the issue. You are not stealing from the craftsman, you are stealing from the monarch, Robin Hood.

Re:picture

[sewagemaster]

i agree.

well it's just part of the evolution. people would still pay for artists music but differently - ie, song books, tabs, and live gigs. they'd still buy their albums if they think it's still worth it so that they can support their artists. if it's 'bad', people arent going to buy the CDs, simple as that. it puts the artists more pressure into better song writing for the songs in the albums, and better performance live. not just robbing them $200 per lip-syncing concert ticket.

engineers making these devices deserve making money just as well.

Re:picture

[Oliver Aaltonen]

HUGE version of same picture.

Re:picture

[Anonymous Coward]

A. I think you missed the sarcassim.

B. Go ahead, keep picking on Democrats, who happen to be the majority of registered voters. See how long it takes for the backlash to bitchslap you conservative freaks.

C. Most Democrats are not irresponsible, poor, or unreasonible. Hell most are not even all that liberal. Most registered voters affliated with a party come from the same socio-economic class, regardless of whether or not they are Asses, Elephants, or Indies, which is why voter apathy is so high. All candidates are the same white, 50ish, rich guy taking money from the big corporations and special interest groups.

Re:picture

[paradesign]

Fear Factory was only done to fund the Mr Bungle project, which in my opinion is much better music.

Re:picture

[buck_wild]

So if I decide I want to sing or play music (and I really can't, trust me) and people want to pay me for doing so, how exactly do *you* have the authority to decide whether I'm the right artist or the wrong one?

What if I'm a really big Spears fan because *I like her music*? Who are you to say that it's wrong of me (or the millions of other fans) to purchase her music or go to her concerts, or that her fans have bad taste?

I call troll.

Archos av340

[way2trivial]

I may have spent twice the cash, but for 652 shipped, I have a "twice the hard drive" 40 gig device that I can watch movies on..

I do wish to christ my pc's TV recording software could record to the format the Archos uses for input.. conversion of every file is a pain in the ass..
but I can take my weekly shows with me when I want them

Re:Archos av340

[FuzzBucket]

After a very bad rebate non-fulfillment experience, I would never purchase or recommend an Archos product.

Re:Archos av340

[The Salamander]

The AV340 I played with lasted about one day, before becoming permanently
locked up displaying an orange screen.

And during the time it did work, it seemed quite large and the interface was quite annoying.

Just did not seem like a quality product at all.

Re:Archos av340

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just did not seem like a quality product at all. "

Typical English product.

And I say that loving the british and all things british.

Re:Archos av340

[EngMedic]

It seems like a more expensive version of the 40 GB ipod, but without the mp3 player frontend, and just the same amount of (with slower transfer speed) harddrive... why pay 650 when you can pay 500 and get a nice, firewire harddrive with headphones?

Re:Archos av340

[Anonymous Coward]

the idiot poster decided that the ipod is the best player ever when it's not even close. any and all archos jukebox multimedia products are better than the ipod. they store up to 40 GB, play music, VIDEO and PICTURES. not to mention the modules you can add on that can TAKE VIDEO, PICTURES, and with the built in microphone OR a LINE IN you can record audio. you can output to RCA you can have CF, SM, or memory stick (with the SM adapter thingy) memory. firewire AND usb2 AND usb 1.1. i don't know about this dell thing but whoever wrote the article needs to stop living in the past. i paid $100 for my JBM 20 (wholesale) and i get a 20 GB external harddrive that happens to play audio, video, and displays images. i can record and do whatever i want for less money than the ipod. screw you and your mac hugging cronies.

and speaking of photos

[jbellis]

the dell dj (gah) is not as good-looking as the nomad zen nx let alone the ipod. Disappointing. :-|

Re:and speaking of photos

[watzinaneihm]

Dell DJ is ugly as hell, but it is cheap enough. It also has a built in recorder and 16 hours of battery time. Kinda compensates for the ugliness.
keep the recorder on all the time at office, next time the pointy haired guy asks you to do something, and you want some evidence in case it blows up you have it.No need of paper trail. Or if you are a student then no need to take notes.
The only good looking mp3 player with recorder I have found is from Philips. (http://www.consumer.philips.com/global/b2c/ce/cat alog/subcategory.jhtml ) The link had a lot of cookie info, so search around a bit.

Re:and speaking of photos

[Anonymous Coward]

And the sound quality (isn't that sort of the point with an audio product?) is not great.

Personally it looks like a clunky box to me and with only average sound, who then cares?

Re:and speaking of photos

[Eccles]

Or if you are a student then no need to take notes.

Isn't the point of notes so that you can have something to review that takes less time to review than the class itself?

Re:and speaking of photos

[Strudelkugel]

Not as good looking? Dang, I think it's the ugliest player out there! The Edsel looked better. Maybe they should have put tailfins on it, if one can figure out where tailfins would go.

Re:and speaking of photos

[afidel]

Not only that, but for many people that are tactile learners the very act of transcribing the class causes them to be able to better commit the material to memory =) The interesting things you learn when you take seminars with titles like "Multiple learning modalities and their application to improving grades". There are actually six different styles of learning and each one has their best studying methods. I had to explain this to a teacher who thought I was sleeping just because I had my head down, I'm an auditory learner who at time needs to filter out visual information to better remember the material.

Re:and speaking of photos

[nomel]

use high speed playback...hello!?

Re:and speaking of photos

[jimbolaya]

Perhaps not...but it sure smells better!

Dells Dud

[Tomeck]

Interesting and relevant article: http://daringfireball.net/2003/10/dells_dud.html Tom

Re:Dells Dud

[Liselle]

That link is so-so. The author is plainly biased. Not the mention the date and the wild speculations inside sort of betray the fact that he/she is only making guesses based on a picture of the DJ, and not any actual experience (like the review linked in the article, for instance). I guess it's a nice read if you already have an iPod, and want to justify the purchase by needlessly belittling the competition.

Re:Dells Dud

[hype7]

Dude... you're getting a dud!

-- james

Re:Dells Dud

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it interesting or relevant? Looks like a whining Apple zealot to me.

Boo hoo, Apple's sold a gajillion iPods and now people are making units of similar size, capacity, and features now for 25% less money.

Yeah, gee, that really sucks.

I especially liked how he called $100 "a bit cheaper". Dude, in the scope of $400, $100 is um... a bit more than a bit cheaper.

I don't know if the Dell DJ is good or bad, but that was an idiotic "article" and shame on you for linking to over-indulgent self-important "articles" by prissy fan-boys.

Re:Dells Dud

[code_echelon]

That article is so biased towards the iPod its ridiculous. The iPod may hold good market share in these mp3 players however they are bound to lose some of it as there are many other products that are very similar that are coming out and several of them are less expensive. I have used the iPod and it is a great little and effective mp3 player however it will easily be duplicated and have worthy opponents very soon. He tended to lead towards the fact that he thought Apple will draw more people to the iPod, Apple is less than 3% of the computer market and clearly the reason that the iPod is a success is cause it is one of the first and best known hard drive based mp3 players. There are plenty of other companies now looking into the same technology and will be able to reproduce the iPod and make newer and better versions(as I am sure Apple will also continue to make better versions). This area of the market is fairly new and is going to get very competitive very quickly. Furthermore when and if Microsoft decides to jump into this head first they can easily render the iPod much harder to use on 90% of the worlds computers. Unfortunately big M$ has a lot of power and is not afraid to use it.

Re:Dells Dud

[AxsDeny]

How is it irrelevant? Gruber makes some great points, mostly about the usability of the product. His comparison, just like the /. post, is regarding the differences between the clear market favorite, and the new guy.

The best point he makes is about the scroll wheel. Apple spends gadzooks of money on usability testing and it's obvious when you use an iPod. Dell clearly didn't spend that much time on usability when creating the DJ. They went the cheap way out, with a mechanical wheel rather than a touch sensor with no moving parts.

I do not own an iPod. I wish I did. But I'll take quality over quantity anyday. The quality of the link, and the relevance of the article is something I was glad to see in this thread.

Re:Dells Dud

[lp_bugman]

"if Microsoft decides to jump into this head first they can easily render the iPod much harder to use on 90% of the worlds computers"

Welcome lawsuit!!

I imagine apple givine a little more PDA features to the iPod in the next few years! It will make people rable

Why is the iPod so much better?

[bjb]

I keep reading about these iPod wanna-bes, but after never really using any of them, I have to wonder: if the big thing is that the iPod has a built in hard drive, ample memory for caching, and good sound, why can't the several competitors make something good as well?

In other words, what makes the iPod the "gold standard" over all the others which seem to have similar specs?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[FatAlb3rt]

I've had Creative's Nomad Jukebox 3 (20G) for almost a year now. It's about the size of a portable CD player, so it's bigger than an Ipod. I don't see it's size as a problem, but the biggest drawback is the interface - it's a bit clunky, doesn't have a fast response, and navigating for a song isn't as easy as an Ipod. That's why I think Ipod is the standard - they produced an outstanding and compact product from the beginning.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

Several things make the iPod the one to get:

1. Firewire connection for fast synchronization. This feature is huge. When I add a couple albums to my iTunes playlist, I can dump them into my iPod almost instantly.

2. Small and light. When I unplug the headphones, it's less weight or bulk than my wallet, and I often carry it in the pocket of my jeans. This not only makes it nice for jogging, but at serves double duty as a "pull out" media player for my car when I park in bad neighborhoods.

3. AAC support. Okay, Ogg Vorbis is more Stalmanist, blah blah blah, but AAC at 128 sounds as good or better, at least to me, as VBR MP3 while taking up less space on the HD.

4. It can double as a portable Firewire/USB2 hard drive. It serves as massive storage for your digital camera, or a great way to "sneaker net" a Linux distro to another building.

5. Price. For once, Apple is not selling the most expensive product on the market. The iPod sells for very little above what the HD alone would sell for.

If there's something I would improve about the iPod, it's RAM. Bumping up the memory to 64MB would mean even longer battery life and better support for really long tracks. If an iPod were available for $100 more that doubled the memory, I would definitely trade up.

Another improvement that would be nice would be to somehow get rid of the momentary pause between tracks. I hate joining tracks just to avoid that interruption.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[krs-one]

Probably because it was the first, or at least the first one that combined function with style extremely well.

-Vic

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Psst.. the following are basically the same on the iPod, DJ, and iRiver: 2, 4, 5. (yes, the iRiver costs 25-50 more... big price difference for the features?) Beyond that USB2 may as well be firewire for your fast sync, Firewire is so unrealized it isn't funny. I'd rather not have to add firewire onto my machine to use it.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Talez]

6) iTunes.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[ozbird]

It can double as a portable Firewire/USB2 hard drive.

This is probably the real reason for the iPod's popularity - they can be slipped into purchase orders for Apple hardware as an "external Firewire HDD", and managers won't bat an eyelid! ;-)

(No I don't have an iPod, you insensitive clod!)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[the bluebrain]

Starting from the assumption that the iPod is indeed superior: it just works. I don't own one, but several friends do, and using it is a synch. Comapring it to for instance my SonyEricsson cellphone: whenever I pick up my cellphone, I get this twinge, in the style of "This is not going to be easy." - whatever it may be - calling someone (mysterious crashes, dropped calls, bad sound), sending an SMS (going through 5 levels of menus before you can start writing it), resetting the time (how come it doesn't recognise the end of daylight saving time itself?) and so on. The iPod, on the other hand, annoys me only for my friends' limited taste in music.

Assuming the iPod is not the be-all and end-all, on the other hand: even if there are some annoyances, and there are superiour products out there: it is and will remain simply a good MP3 player. Like old Macintoshes: if all you wanted to do with the box when you bought it is, say, write letters, then the oldie 256k original mac is still a good tool to do that, after all these years. Same for the iPod: I predict that 20, 30, 50 years down the line, once someone has worked out how to replace the worn-out rechargeables, iPods will still be good, elegant devices for doing nothing else that listen to adequate-quality stereophonic music.

/end rant. I'm platform-agnostic, for chrissakes.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[matthew.thompson]

The usual apple reasons.

- It just works.
- It's industrial design is a notch above the rest - the latest version has no moving buttons on the main control area - no pocket fluff can get in and clog the works.
- Firewire syncing and charging from one cable. This is far better than USB syncing as it provide more current and allows for just as fast, if not faster syncs than USB 2.0
- It's smaller - it's about the smallest hard drive based play you can buy
- Sound quality - the iPod doesn't sacrifice sound quality, there are technically better sounding units but the tradeoffs make the iPod a leader
- iTunes integration - ratings, sound check, play lists, etc - make a change on the iPod to a rating and it syncs back to the iTunes database.
- add-ons - line out on the dock, media card reader, microphone etc - the iPod has loads of accessories that are tailored specifically for it rather than generic add-ons which may or may not work.
- User interface - even with the revised top 4 buttons instead of the buttons around the you can operate it one handedly and everything is easy to read and get through.

There's probably more but I can't sit here and type all day - I have 2200 tracks to listen to on my iPod :o)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[10Ghz]

Several things make the iPod the one to get:

So why not get iRiver iHP-100-series instead? It has all the benefits of an iPod (well, it uses USB2.0 instead of FireWire), and it has several features not found on the iPod:

1. Remote-control with LCD
2. Built-in FM radio
3. Built-in microphone/dictaphone
4. Digital/Optical in/out
5. Built-in real-time mp3-encoding

So why get an iPod when superior alternatives are already available?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[marmoset]

Um, the interface? Does that thing really throw a raw filesystem tree at you?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[apoch2001]

I thinking the biggest thing going AGAINST the Dell is it's weight. 7.6 ounces is like a brick! The iPod only weighs 5.6. I guess Dell wants me to develop a limp or something....

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[harlows_monkeys]

why can't the several competitors make something good as well?

Depends on what you mean by "good". For example, if you are looking for something to have a bunch of music at your office, then Archos is as good as iPod (and was out years before). Here is what Apple did with iPod that Archos didn't do:

1. They used a smaller form-factor hard drive, allowing for a smaller unit. This makes the iPod attractive for people who want to carry the unit around a lot.

2, iTunes. Personally, I hate pretty much all music management software, prefering to simply use the filesystem to manage my MP3 files, but a lot of people apparently really like that sort of thing.

3. Marketing. Apple is really good at this. Heck, most people think Apple invented hard disk MP3 players, rather than being one of the last entries into the field.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[10Ghz]

I haven't seen any of the reviewers complain about the interface. In fact, quite few of them has said that the UI is excellent.

So it seems that there are portable players out there with far better feature-set than the precious iPod has.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[nuxx]

3. AAC support. Okay, Ogg Vorbis is more Stalmanist, blah blah blah, but AAC at 128 sounds as good or better, at least to me, as VBR MP3 while taking up less space on the HD.

Psst. Not to be rude, but at 128kbps MP3 and AAC will take the same amount of space for the same length track. AAC will sound markedly better.

I personally used to be a huge Ogg Vorbis fan, then I got an iPod and went back to MP3s for convience. Having acquired a G5 earlier this month, I decided to try reripping parts of my collection to AAC, just as a test. And there is a difference.

I have my iPod running line in to my car stereo, and with 192kbps MP3s (using Apple's encoder, which is very good), they'd occasionally sound flat, somewhat muffled, and just generally not as good as the in-dash stereo. Switching to same-bitrate AACs, everything sounds a bit brighter, almost indistinguishable from audio CDs in the player itself.

I've seen the same results in my living room as well, where I have a second dock running line out straight into the stereo.

Regarding the parent post, though, I think that the big seller with the iPod is the interface. It works night and day better than the competition, and the menuing system is very, very similar to the 'Browse' layout in iTunes.

Apple is big on design and style. Combine this, with a product that works very well and is priced reasonably, and you've got a winner. ...and it's been proven.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[raventh1]

5. Price. For once, Apple is not selling the most expensive product on the market. The iPod sells for very little above what the HD alone would sell for.

You're paying WAY to much for Laptop drives.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoops, there's some more of that world-famous sour grapes of yours leaking through, 10Ghz... Can't handle, even for a brief moment, that someone would prefer the emotional/design elements of an object than the purely rational features/price equation. And even worse, that MOST people are doing it! Your logical thoughts are meaningless in the marketplace! What do you do?! Where do you go for reason and simplicity?!

The mere thought of it makes you shudder like a six year old on the edge of a grand mal tantrum.

Your whole posting history is -1, Loser.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

1. The iPod has a remote control feature. I don't use it. The iPod itself is smaller than a lot of my remotes.

2. FM Radio would have been a spiffy feature 30 years ago when radio didn't suck. There are very few markets left that have stations worth listening to.

3. Also available for iPod, although it's an external device.

4. That's not a bad feature, if you have an amp that takes digital/optical in, and has better D/A logic than the player.

5. Unless I'm bootlegging a Phish concert or something, I would never use that feature. If I want to record, I will be doing it in my studio, which has a desktop machine for that.

Now let's talk about the iRiver's lack of anything like iSync, the piss-poor interface, the horrible and fragile-looking game-console style thumbstick controller jutting out of the front, total lack of either AAC or OGG support (they promise it as a future "firmware upgrade,"), meaning you will need to encode VBR MP3 at 192+ to realize any kind of worthwhile sound, 1970s Volvo-like boxiness... Unless you need the FM radio or recording capabilities, it is an inferior solution that costs more.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[ryanvm]

I often carry it in the pocket of my jeans. This not only makes it nice for jogging...

You jog in your jeans?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

Psst. Not to be rude, but at 128kbps MP3 and AAC will take the same amount of space for the same length track. Since you need to record at 192 VBR in order to approach the quality of 128-bit AAC, I consider AAC to be a space-saver.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

They are not laptop drives. They are about half the size of the drive inside your Dell Latitude, and that smaller size doesn't come cheap. Shop for an external Firewire drive that's the size of the iPod, and you will discover that it costs about the same.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

Badly worded. I was saying the fact that it's that small makes it nice for jogging, as well as taking with me when I leave the car.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

1970s Volvos are way cool!

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[10Ghz]

Can't handle, even for a brief moment, that someone would prefer the emotional/design elements of an object than the purely rational features/price equation.

Well, no. People keep on saying "iPod is the best mp3-player in the world!". I merely ask that how can it be "best" if there are players with far superior feature-sets? "It has a better UI!" is not valid, since the competitor in question has comparable UI and UI's are subjective by nature.

Seriously, it seems to me that some people think iPod is the best simply because it's made by Apple. Regardless of the fact that there are players out there with superior features.

Normally I don't reply to AC's, but I decided to make an exception in your case.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should try an iPod out then, find out what even windows users are raving about.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[10Ghz]

1. The iPod has a remote control feature. I don't use it. The iPod itself is smaller than a lot of my remotes.

iPod has a remote with LCD as a standard feature? Any links?

2. FM Radio would have been a spiffy feature 30 years ago when radio didn't suck. There are very few markets left that have stations worth listening to.

I know of plenty of radio-stations that are worth listening. Seriosuly, you are just making excuses for iPod lack of features.

3. Also available for iPod, although it's an external device.

So it makes the plauer even more expensive not to mention bigger and bulkier? Thanks, but I think I'll pass.

the piss-poor interface

How do you know it's "piss-poor"? I haven't really seen any of the reviewers complains aboit it. Or do you just assume that it MUST have a poor UI?

the horrible and fragile-looking game-console style thumbstick controller jutting out of the front

Subjective. I think the joystick is pretty nifty.

total lack of either AAC or OGG support (they promise it as a future "firmware upgrade,")

Does iPod support Ogg?

it is an inferior solution that costs more.

How can it be inferior if it has all the features iPod has and more? And the price is more or less the same.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[hseikaly]

I personally think the iPod is superior due to this reason: the integration between your Mac/PC and the iPod itself. It is seamless. Getting your music to the iPod and synchronizing your music collection is a no-brainer using this device. Plug in your iPod and iTunes will automagicallly load up and start synchronizing your tunes. Or using iTunes, you can manually just move music on. Total idiots can easily figure this out because the Mac basically does everything for you.

I have used other players and it absolutely sucks getting music onto the player. Musicmatch is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever seen. It's buggy, it crashes, and the UI is so damn confusing. I have never seen the ease of use that iPod and iTunes offers to the user in any other device. Its sad to see all these other makers try to compete when they miss the point. They miss the point that the iPod is just killer when it comes to the synergy between the PC and the device itself.

That is what you really pay for. Oh, and you also get a really sick device that looks awesome, easy to use, really light, and sounds great. What more can you ask for? Its not all about the actual device. Its about the complete package.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Ryan Amos]

It's not the specs, stupid. Anyone can make an MP3 player with a hard drive. That's easy. The iPod is so cool because it works the way you expect it to. The interface is so incredibly nice and easy to work with that you can pick up an iPod and figure it out within 10 seconds. This is what the competitors fail to copy; their interfaces are clunky and not very intuitive. If you get your boners off big spec numbers, then Apple doesn't make anything you can't get for cheaper elsewhere. If you just want to listen to some fucking music and not have to fuck with drivers, software, etc. (the "I Plug it in and it Works" factor) the iPod is for you.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[avdp]

I've never owned a Mac or anything made by Apple before the Ipod, so I can't say that I have some sort of bias towards Apple products. Personally, to me the appearance of player (white and nice shiny metal), plus the interface (the wheel and buttons), the gorgeous LCD and its backlight, is important. The UI is great as well - it is simple yet very functional. It's the WHOLE package, not any one feature that makes the Ipod so perfect. Nobody but Apple has managed to get everything right (in my book).

If the other players (such as iRiver) has additional features that the Ipod doesn't have, I don't neet them (i.e. I don't need to record, a digital output for MP3s is a bit overkill).

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[radish]

I'm sticking with my Rio Karma thanks:

1. USB2 for sync - basically just as quick as firewire.

2. Just as small and light. Actually, it's smaller in terms of width and height, but thicker to make up. Overall physical volume is about the same.

3. Support for Vorbis, FLAC, mp3, wma and a bunch of others. More coming.

4. It can double as a portable USB2 drive although you do have to use an app to load stuff onto it.

5. Price is pretty similar to iPod I think.

Oh and it plays whatever length of tracks you want, does proper gapless playback (or at least it will when the next firmware release comes out of beta), way more options from a UI point of view, and has built in ethernet with a webserver running right on the unit. Battery life is much better than iPod too.

Rulez ;)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Yort]

These things are all true, but I think the point is that other players do them almost as well (or better, sometimes):

Firewire connection

This is nice, but most of the other players out now have USB2.0 support at least. I know, it's probably not as good as Firewire, but USB2.0 still has a bigger market share, so for most people they're effectively the same thing.

Small and light.

What are the comparisons here? I was under the impression that they were all pretty "small and light." Plus, if you really want small and light, isn't that new RIO with 1.5GB card a tempting prospect?

AAC support

I'll give that one to you, as having AAC is the best way to implement iTunes. It *would* be nice to have Ogg support, tho, especially as more and more other players are supporting it.

It can double as a portable Firewire/USB2 hard drive

They can pretty much all be used as a removable hard drive.

Price. For once, Apple is not selling the most expensive product on the market.

Seriously? I got my Neuros 20GB player (with Ogg) for under $300. And every other player I've seen is either even with the iPod, or the same price (often with a bigger hard drive capacity).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the iPod - I think they're great. I just don't think the reasons you gave adequately answer the question of "why is the iPod so much better than any other player?"

Troy

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

what about the joystick thumb button for control.
worst idea ever
what a piece of crap

but it has that little apple logo on it, so it must be gold
even though it is mediocore at best compared to the rest of the players n the market

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[0x0d0a]

I personally used to be a huge Ogg Vorbis fan, then I got an iPod and went back to MP3s for convience. Having acquired a G5 earlier this month, I decided to try reripping parts of my collection to AAC, just as a test. And there is a difference.

I'm curious as to your impressions on Vorbis-AAC comparison, or whether you feel there is a significant difference.

For a few test clips I've tried (and I suspect the music type affects the tests quite a bit), I can actually distingish between Ogg and the real thing more easily, when listening to first one and then the other, than approximate equivalent bitrate (VBR) MP3s. Drums just sound more different in vorbis than in MP3. On the other hand, they don't sound *bad* -- they sound like drums. The main problem with MP3 is that the artifacts tend to make music sound much worse -- especially cymbals.

Also, why were you using CBR MP3s? There's a phenomonal quality difference on almost all music between CBR and VBR. I can see doing VBR *averaging* 192, but not CBR 192. Good VBR compressors have been around for ages. To a significant extent, I find that a not unreasonable portion of the MP3 to [other format] draw is not actually the MP3 format itself, but primarily the fact that some MP3s are *still* CBR, whereas everything modern is *always* VBR. VBR MP3s are *much* more competitive.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[0x0d0a]

It *would* be nice to have Ogg support, tho, especially as more and more other players are supporting it.

I'm with you on Vorbis support.

I'm waiting until prices for a good player with Vorbis support and 40 GB or more are around $200, and them I'll pick one up.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[DrEldarion]

I think part of it is because usually other manufacturers skimp somewhere in order to make their player less expensive than the iPod. I very frequently hear "If the iPod were less expensive, I'd buy one." All these companies are trying to get that market, the people who want a nice hard drive MP3 player, but want one that's inexpensive as well. Unfortunately, because they're aiming for the cheap market, the players tend to be crap.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[RevAaron]

Heh. I work at the university helpdesk. I had some to-be-frosh's mom call in- she wanted to know what kind of computer to get. So, the conversation went on and on about what the kid needed, etc. And we get to the end of it, and she's like: "Oh, and he said he needs something called an 'iPod.' It's a neccesary computer accessory." And I cracked up, wishing I had a dumb, rich mom (or just doubly dumb, willing to go into debt, which is more likely) to try something like that out on. But not really, I prefer my non-dumb mom. I don't know if he got an iPod after sending his mom my way.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[nguyenhm]

A recent Stereophile review of the iPod showed that its analog output circuitry is as clean as most CD players (e.g. very little distortion, etc.). Good enough to plug into your high-end stereo rig if you use uncompressed audio files, apparently.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[btlzu2]

I know of plenty of radio-stations that are worth listening. Seriosuly, you are just making excuses for iPod lack of features.

All I can ask is, where do you live? FM radio tastes like ass in most cities I've been to. This includes, alas, Chicago, the coolest city in the world.

As far as players, I've tried many mp3 players and none of them has the sound quality of the iPod. I'm pretty picky about the quality of the low & high ends and the iPod has them all beat for me including the iRiver which has nice features, but does not sound as good. Also, the interaction between iTunes, the online store, and the iPod is brilliant. Everyone has different likes and tastes. I'm willing to pay more for the iPod than getting less than I want with another device.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[ryanvm]

Heh - I was just messing with you man.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[RevAaron]

Just FYI- the iPods come with a remote control, although without an LCD. They can also do mp3 (or AAC?) recording. Used to be only in the debug mode, but it's in the regular menu with the latest update.

And who the hell wants or needs an FM radio? Not me! Although, if I were in the UK I might dig it, radio seems a lot less shitty there.

Why would I get an iPod? Because the 10 GB iPod is $80-100 cheaper than 10 GB iRiver iHP-100. Sees like a pretty big motivator to me- lower price, higher quality. But to each his own.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[RevAaron]

Some folks also say that the Zaurus has a great UI, an easy to use and reliable OS/environment- huh.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Fancia]

So... you jog in your car, then? ^.~

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

haha! she's so stupid for not knowing what apple's mp3 player is called. haha! she's not up on pop culture. so stupid, so funny! harhar! oh well, back to answering help desk support calls, i'm glad no one can laugh at me about anything! har har!

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the iPod has evolved very little, apart from increasing disk sizes, since it was announced almost two years ago, an eternity in technology.

None of the devices in the same category can be yet rated as an overall much better package (some may be better according to your need, but none by a wide margin). That's why the iPod has become the reference against which all other portable music players are measured.

I repeat it: an almost stable reference for two years in technology is quite an amazing accomplishment. Apple got it right basically on every point on the first attempt.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[shotfeel]

Some other things to look at can be found at

http://www.apple.com/ipod/beyondmusic.html

You might also want to check the cool accessories link.

And we haven't even gotten to all the 3rd party stuff. For example see

http://news.com.com/2100-1041-5095625.html

about Apple working with others to develop more software and more hardware. It also says Apple is boasting more than 130 add-ons for the iPod. Some include a voice recorder, media card reader, speakers with a dock for the iPod, an infrared remote, and, apparently, tons of custom cases.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[haystor]

WRR, Dallas. Classical music.

Umm, that's the end of my list.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[b-baggins]

Yeah, she was so dumb, that she called up the University to find out what the actual requirements from the University were and to verify her son's requests.

What is really dumb is confusing ignorance with stupidity.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[cuban321]

Does it run under linux?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

What did it for me was:

- Smallest, lightest, HD mp3 player out there (some of the other players are small too, but none are really as small as the ipod where it counts, in the width and depth department).

- UI has no moving parts (except for the hold button, which seems awfully hard to destroy and is rarely used anyway). This means sand won't get in your ipod when you take it to the beach.

- Most intuitive interface of all mp3 players out there. Try an ipod, then try another mp3 player. You will notice the difference.

- Best sound quality. Every review seems to agree the sound quality of the ipod is superb, and I have to agree it sounds just as good as my stereo. Though to be honest, I'm not an audiophile.

Also, even though it wasn't available yet when I bought mine, there's one more reason to buy an ipod:

- itunes. It really is the best music syncing app out there.

Reasons not to buy an ipod (note that some of these are pretty contrived):

- Price. Yes, they are overpriced (just look at how Apple keeps saying the ipod is their cash cow). And the lack of third-party repair options ensures that if it ever breaks outside of warranty repair won't come cheap.

- No support for flac or ogg vorbis. I don't really care for ogg support, but flac would be nice, since the only lossless codecs the ipod has are uncompressed, which take up way too much space to really make use of. Then again 320 kbps mp3 sounds fine to me.

- In europe, it's volume-limited. Classical music, even at maximum volume, is sometimes not loud enough. There are workarounds (a program called eupod, and a documented procedure to turn your EU ipod into a US one), but that doesn't change anything to the fact that this is annoying. Still, I suppose Apple had no choice in this matter, EU laws being what they are. Also, you can change the volume of individual songs in itunes, but this takes time, sweet precious time.

- complicated to copy music back from the ipod to your pc. On the ipod files get dropped into numbered folders, so that the number of files in one folder is limited enough that directory enumeration doesn't slow it down (listing all 600+ songs on my ipod is immediate). As a result, finding a music file you want to copy back isn't as easy as I'd like it to be.

- it's made by apple. Some people think apple are evil. If this is you, I can imagine this bothers you. This is not me however. I don't care what apple does, as long as their products are decent and cross-platform (and the ipod works easily in windows and linux, as well as on the mac)

- Impossible to use an ipod with both a mac and a windows/linux machine. You need to choose how you'll have your ipod's disk formatted, and by extension, in what OS you'll manage your ipod.

- Is limited to music playing, contact/note storing, and a few games (breakout, solitaire, and "parachute" if anyone's wondering). It's not very extensible. There is a linux on ipod project, but it's in its infancy. As a result, the ipod isn't very extensible.

- Note-storing functionality is limited to 4k notes. Though there are tools which will split larger texts into linked notes (the notes support some html tags). This is just annoying. But then the screen isn't really big enough to read e-books from anyway.

Another problem with the ipod is how apple is screwing up in the quality control department. Itunes 4.1 broke some win2k installs (4.1.1 fixed it), and ipod firmware 2.1 broke some ipods (and screwed up the backlight contrast and battery status indicator on mine, though it works perfectly fine otherwise). Added to the broken 10.2.8 update apple shoved out the door this is worrying. Still, I guess it's my fault for not waiting a few days to see whether it was worth updating (answer: no, I could have stayed with firmware 2.0.1). Downgrading firmwares is not possible without wiping the ipod's disk, which is too annoying for me to contemplate, since it would mean re-ripping all music on there (over 40 cd's).

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[jasonbw]

Actually, he said it has a 'remote control feature', he said nothing about an lcd. Honestly, the remote control is only standard on the midrange and up models, so he should concede the point, but don't put words in peoples mouths.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[lowmagnet]

No, they said it was "warm like hot grits down one's pants, with a petrifying edge." Or whatever it is that audiophiles say about such things. My eyes glazed over half-way through the mentioned article. All I know is it sounds good on my stereo rig.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[radish]

Yes it is supported under Linux. You can use the ethernet hookup to connect and then the music manager app is served from the unit itself as a Java app. So it works on any os which supports ethernet and Java. There are native versions of the software for Windows and (I think) Mac, but the Java one does everything you need.

I'm not sure if you can use the USB hookup under Linux, maybe. Check out www.riovolution.com for a decent forum with a presence from the developers.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Buran]

I did exactly that, and I have used it for that function a fair bit, although in the end with the boss I've got it's just as easy to wait for files to ooze over the 10mbps half-duplex network we've got. *sigh* He won't even upgrade to OS X because it's "too different"... I installed Panther for him and the getting-started guide scared him off. Hrmph.

Oh well. He's already getting left behind by new software (he can't use Acrobat 6, and he won't be able to use the new Photoshop software that's on the way) so eventually he'll have to upgrade if he wants new stuff.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[repetty]

"1. USB2 for sync - basically just as quick as firewire."

Funny, all the people who've used both strongly disagree with you. All the formal benchmarks I've seen show not just a narrow performance gap, but a WIDE performance gap.

Makes me wonder how you came to this conclusion. The nominal b.p.s. ratings? Please, tell me you didn't do that!

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[cuban321]

Hell, I'd rather not use the USB if I can get ethernet. Now if only it supported 802.11b ;)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[stripes]

"It has a better UI!" is not valid, since the competitor in question has comparable UI and UI's are subjective by nature.

A UI may be subjective, but one can study them anyway. The best method is to point a video camera at the user, and another at the device, and to give the user a list of things to do with the device and then for the researcher to leave the room. The UI that makes the fewest people frustrated tends to be better, as does the UI that people seem to learn faster, and depending on the task the one that either a new or experienced user can use faster.

It is easy to say "A and B have comparable UIs", but is it true that A and B have UIs that are not merely comparable, but actually roughly as good?

That is a question one can find the answer to, just not trivially.

Seriously, it seems to me that some people think iPod is the best simply because it's made by Apple. Regardless of the fact that there are players out there with superior features.

I'm more of the opinion that people think the iPod is better because it was the first to "not suck", and "everyone else has one". It may or may not also be the case that it is currently the best. There isn't a whole lot of blind love of Apple (if there were wouldn't it have more then 2~5% of the desktop market?) Oh, it may also be because the the iPod has some advertising and few of the other MP3 players have any (or as much).

(in the intrest of full disclosure, I have an iPod. I bought it when the 5G ones were pretty new and a modest amount of research showed nothing better on the market at the time. If it were to need replacing I would not automatically replace it with another iPod, but since I happen to use Mac OSX there is a pretty big chance that there won't be another MP3 player that works as well on that platform as the iPod. Then again a lot of the things I like about the iPod are really things I like about iTunes, so maybe it would work out)

Well, no. People keep on saying "iPod is the best mp3-player in the world!". I merely ask that how can it be "best" if there are players with far superior feature-sets? "

Well there is the chance that the features other MP3 players have are not all that important (or whatever features player B has that the iPod lacks are not as important to people as the features that player B has but the iPod lacks). For example while I would like it if the iPod played OGG files I'm not going to get a different MP3 player just because it plays OGG files, esp. if it lacks something that I really like about the iPod (like maybe how fast it sync's). I don't have any specific complaints about iRiver's player because it wasn't on the market when I picked the iPod.

You claimed that the UI is a subjective feature, and I agree. However you kind of missed that pretty much everything about an MP3 player is subjective. Yes you can establish that the battery in A lasts longer then the one in B, but you can't really say that makes A better then B because maybe a given user thinks B's battery lasts long enough. Worse yet some other user might think A is worse because B's battery charges faster or in a more convenient manner to him.

Unless product A is better in every way then product B you need to take into account that different people value different features differently and that while product B may be the clear winner to you someone else may decide that for them product A is far better. And you know what? You might both be right.

It won't stop anyone form arguing though :-)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[cens0r]

KEXP in seattle... the best radio station on earth. There is plenty of good radio out there, you just have to know where to look.

You're telling me the University of chicago or Northwestern or any of the other colleges around don't have a radio station?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Echoota]

'...Is it worthy or is it just another player that falls short of the iPod's greatness?'

There are flaws, and I resent that no one ever talks about them. I don't know if the newer competitors (past may 2003) have better options but a couple of the things I can't stand about the Ipod are:

1. No delete on the fly:
If I come across a song that sucks I can't get rid of it, and it continues to take space on my Ipod. I can give the song a bad rating and remove it later now that PC itunes is out, and I assume is compatible with this feature. This is dangerous though, as I usually use the Ipod while driving and it's extremely distracting to get the rating right with the somewhat erratic solid-state dial. Plus it's just a pain in the ass to constantly have to hook the Ipod up to my computer to get rid of the occasion song. Which leads me to...

2. An intermediate application (be it itunes, ephpod, music match, itunes for PC) is required to put the _playable_ files on the Ipod:
This just sucks. I run an on-line radio station, and have already gone through the process of sorting my MP3's. I want to be able to just throw my directory structure in, have the IPod parse itself, and go. Maybe Apple requires this as a layer of protection against piracy, but I don't see why the Ipod can't be more autonomous.

I admit the glamour and the non-stop raving (but biased) reviews did get me to buy the Ipod. And for the most part I'm satisfied with it. To give Apple credit, they are making/allowing some great add-ons, like the media card reader. I'm just sick of seeing the Ipod being hailed as the "perfect device" when it's not.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[radish]

I came to that conclusion from reading the specs (400 vs 480), and from others' experience. I have no real-world experience of firewire.

However I did just google for some comparisions, and this was the first I found.

The tests seem rather crude, but to quote "As I've been saying all along, Firewire and USB 2.0 are pretty close to being equal in terms of throughput and in real world use, neither will have 100% of their channel capacity used even by sustained hard drive access. The performance gain of Firewire over USB 2.0 is probably small enough in most situations that either will be perfectly usable for storage devices. "

Good enough for me.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Matthew Weigel]

Then the reviewers have already had their expectations lowered beyond recognition.

On the iPod you can browse by artist (and select an album of theirs, or a song in an album of theirs), by album (and then by song), by genre (and browse by artist, and then by album, and then by song), and even by composer. This is how people look for music, not according to a fixed directory structure. A fixed hierarchy doesn't handle albums with mixed artists well; you either have to put each song with the appropriate artist, eliminate the 'artist' level of of the hierarchy, or introduce that most productive of musical groups, "Mixed Artists". All three have drawbacks that disappear when you allow fluid hierarchy.

Further, the iRiver has inferior input design; do you really want to use up and down buttons to scroll through a thousand songs (or even 100 albums)?

Finally, it has inferior software on the computer end... you say elsewhere how wonderful the 'drag and drop' interface of the iRiver's software is. Drag and drop? The thing is designed to hold all of your music, so why does there have to be some kind of 'select what music to install' step? Why not just automatically synchronize everything on the iRiver with everything on the computer, and be done with it?

The iRiver has a few interesting features (simple test of an 'interesting feature': "yeah, I'd like that feature on my iPod"), but it fails at the most basic level, just like a lot of other mp3 players do, which is why consumers mostly pick the iPod.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[demonbug]

Out of curiosity, what kind of car stereo do you have? I was just wondering if you actually have one withy a line in on the front. I had an old Panasonic (I think - it was about the cheapest CD player I could find at the time, only about $150, and it came with a remote - this would be about five years ago, maybe six) cd player in my old car that had an auxillary in on the front of the unit, but I haven't been able to find one since (of any brand). They all seem to stick the line in on the back, which makes it a pain. Anyway, just wondering if you've managed to find one with aux-in on the front, as this is a feature I'm looking for next time I get a new car stereo.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Matthew Weigel]

"It has a better UI!" is not valid, since the competitor in question has comparable UI and UI's are subjective by nature.

Well, that's the problem, you're wrong. UIs can be judged by well established, well regarded, and quantitative metrics... that is, UIs are not subjective by nature. That you completely discount UI explains why you discount the iPod.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

No delete on the fly

Ok, I'll bite: why do you need to delete a file when you have no way of reusing the space without hooking up a computer to it to re-sync? You just can't stand the thought of the bits on your harddrive?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Slime-dogg]

How big is the HD? All of the Rio's that I've seen are somewhere in the neighborhood of 128 MB to 512 MB. I think they all have flash drives, which isn't too shabby, but it also limits the storage capacity.

With an IPod, I could load up a crapload of music onto it, at good quality, and probably never have to sync up again.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[radish]

20gb is out now, 40 soon.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[nomel]

And, don't forget the iHP-120 series that just came out.

Some features you missed:

Records radio,
Plays MP3, WMA, ASF, WAV and OGG and any format that they decide to make a codec for in the future,
Plug it in, and it shows up as a drive in windows,
and, has a nifty remote for easy manipulation.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, he drives to go jogging. Probably an SUV too. Boggles the mind, it does.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[u38cg]

The problem with the break in tracks is not your player, but your encoder, and it's not really its' fault either. MP3 wasn't designed with this in mind - it's a streaming format, not a storage format.

What's happening is that each frame records a small amount of time, say a twentieth of a second. Information from two different tracks is not shared by your encoder between the last frame of the first file and the first frame of the second file; this means that nine times out of ten, there's a gap consisting of unfilled frame.

You need to check your encoder documentation (or more likely, mailing list) to figure out how to get your encoder to fill each frame completely at the expense of track integrity (which doesn't mean anything in real life).

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[SmittyTheBold]

If there's something I would improve about the iPod, it's RAM. Bumping up the memory to 64MB would mean even longer battery life and better support for really long tracks. If an iPod were available for $100 more that doubled the memory, I would definitely trade up.

Ir would probably lower battery life, actually. RAM is expensive (electricity-wise) to keep active. As it is, the iPod can spin down its hard drive for ~30 minutes with the current memory, then spin it back up momentarily when it needs to re-fill the buffer. The power drawn by the drive for that short period of time is miniscule compared to the power required to keep double the RAM active for a half-hour.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[jayteedee]

7) If you own a mac, you can have an OS installed on the iPod and boot your Mac in a fix.

Since I've had two problems with my PC with Win2000 having boot problems because of a mildly corrupted HD. The 1st time I was at home and could yank the HD and put it into a desktop machine to clean up the HD. The second time I was in a time crunch (thank goodness for Knoppix, or I wouldn't have gotten anything done for 2 hours). Eventually I booted from the win2000 boot disk and fixed the HD (2 hours, yikes). It would have been nice to had the boot from firewire capability that the Macs have.

Someone already took 6 :)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

"In other words, what makes the iPod the "gold standard" over all the others which seem to have similar specs? "

There is nothing special about iPod, except that it costs too much, as the Dell product proves. Apple zealots will disagree of course, because they respond with emotion rather than reason.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

...what makes the iPod the "gold standard" over all the others which seem to have similar specs?

A built-in base of gullible consumers who follow Jobs off whatever cliff he points at...

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Zagadka]

I've been looking for a new car stereo myself, recently, and I've noticed that Crutchfield sells a bunch with front aux inputs. Just go to "Car Audio & Video", select your car's year/make/model, then go to "All CD Receivers". The "Features & Specs" tab on a each receiver's page will tell you if there's an AUX input, and whether it's on the front or rear. You can also usually confirm this by looking at the photos they've got.

Shameless plug: if you're going to spend $200 or more at Crutchfield please feel free to use my referral code, "phy84-qzqew-9sek1". That'll give you a $20 discount on your purchase.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

Is English your second language, or do you just quote stupid shit?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[nathanh]

Heh. I work at the university helpdesk. I had some to-be-frosh's mom call in- she wanted to know what kind of computer to get. So, the conversation went on and on about what the kid needed, etc. And we get to the end of it, and she's like: "Oh, and he said he needs something called an 'iPod.' It's a neccesary computer accessory." And I cracked up, wishing I had a dumb, rich mom (or just doubly dumb, willing to go into debt, which is more likely) to try something like that out on.

She's not dumb just because she doesn't know the names of all the latest fad products in the computer business.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[jimbolaya]

Whoa! Sounds like your boss better slow down there. What's with this 10Mbs half-duplex, leadfoot? AppleTalk should suit you all fine.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well then, you'd appreciate the USB 2 iPod dock and linking wire...

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[jimbolaya]

3. AAC support. Okay, Ogg Vorbis is more Stalmanist, blah blah blah, but AAC at 128 sounds as good or better, at least to me, as VBR MP3 while taking up less space on the HD.

Psst. Not to be rude, but at 128kbps MP3 and AAC will take the same amount of space for the same length track. AAC will sound markedly better.

Not exactly true. Note the post says, "VBR MP3". In VBR, the rate refers to the minimum bit rate. So the average bit rate of the encoding will be something equal to or greater than 128kbs.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Buran]

The funny thing is, he actually DOES drive like a maniac. Whodathunkit?

Then again, he's a professor. I think that's all the explanation there is. :p

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

That you can tune into while out of shouting distance from the campus?

No.

Some of us don't live/work/drive around campus 24/7, Sparky. Some don't even live/work/drive anywhere near one even for 15 minutes a month.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see:

A maximum drive half the size of an iPod

A substantially larger form factor (the remote you harped on with the other person is almost half the size of an iPod!)

An annoying interface (I loathe designs where pressing DOWN on the joystick is select)

A feature set that, while impressive in it's amazing array of complexity, can't help but drive the cost up. (I suspect that's why there's no 40GB model)

And last but not least - the inability of buying it in the U.S.

Enough for you Sparky?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Onanismous Coward]

Want transparent windows [insightbb.com] in Win 2K/XP?

No, thanks !

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Mairsil]

MP3 wasn't designed with this in mind - it's a streaming format, not a storage format.

MP3 was designed as the audio component for VCDs, so it was most definitely designed as a storage format.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[nuxx]

Sorry. I guess I took a while to reply... I didn't do any direct Vorbis-AAC comparisons, but both sounded better than MP3 to me. The MP3s I was using were created with iTunes as 192kbps VBR. My biggest problem with MP3 has been the tendancy to distort high end stuff and almost sound sloshy and watery.

I'd been using Ogg Vorbis for about two years, but I really wanted an iPod. Going back to MP3 seemed like a step down, but switching to AAC is much nicer.

I just can't wait for ~5 years to pass so I can rip everything to a straight PCM bitstream, be it AIFF, WAV, AU, or whatnot. It would be real nice to see something like FLAC, or a non-lossy compression, but I don't know if Apple will add that anytime soon (yes, I know you can do it with plugins...), and I don't want to use all my drive space for that. Yet. Maybe once I can get 1TB disks off the shelf.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[u38cg]

This is a common misconception. The format was actually adopted for VCDs; it was originally conceived as one of a range of digital broadcasting formats. If you actually look at the way MP3 is structured, it is possible to actually compress it further, because frames include redundant information that allows a decoder to lock on with only one frame of data. If it was supposed to be a storage format, it wouldn't be made this way.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Mister Furious]

so, I should have to remember all the songs that I want to delete until I'm hooked up to my pc? deleting it on the fly and then having the software sync makes way more sense.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Echoota]

Well the logic is, the software will then sync the deletion and the room will will be free so I don't have to hunt down the song later.

Convenience is the key here.

Well...

[Sir Haxalot]

Is it worthy or is it just another player that falls short of the iPod's greatness?
You're assuming everyone likes the iPod with that statement, I personally think it's a great mp3 player but aren't too pleased with the aesthetics. Each to his own...

Re:Well...

[Boone^]

The aesthetics of the iPod appear to fetch a $100 USD premium (at least for the 20G version-- DDJ is $300 and iPod is $400). To each his own, indeed.

Nice...but...

[hookedup]

Dell Digital Jukebox 20GB1
Stores over 4,900 songs

(Assumes audio format is 128kbps MP3 encoding with average song length of 4 min.)

I dont know about the rest of you, but most, if not all of my music is in 192kbps.

What kind of space available are we talking about with that bitrate?

Re:Nice...but...

[mirko]

What kind of space available are we talking about with that bitrate?
More than enough for a footing, unless you plan to run as long as Forrest Gump

Re:Nice...but...

[FatAlb3rt]

1. Find a napkin or piece of paper.
2. Grab a pencil or a pen.
3. 128*4900/192

That's a good ballpark answer.

Re:Nice...but...

[Mr Smidge]

You've got to be trolling.. with an average of 4 minutes per song..

4900 * 128 / 192 = ?

Tough one, I know.

Re:Nice...but...

[Steve B]

(Assumes audio format is 128kbps MP3 encoding with average song length of 4 min.)
I dont know about the rest of you, but most, if not all of my music is in 192kbps.
What kind of space available are we talking about with that bitrate?

Enough to store all the textbooks on basic arithmetic in the Library of Congress.

Re:Nice...but...

[TheRaven64]

Please tell me this isn't a serious question.

It tells you that it's a 20GB device.

20GB = 160Gb.

1Gb = 1000x1000kb = 1,000,000kb (assuming that they are using the usual hard disk manufacturers trick of using decimal rather than binary values).

Hence 160Gb = 160,000,000

160,000,000kb / 192kbps = 833333.3s

833333.3s is about 13889 minutes, which gives 3472 4-minute tracks.

Or, to put it another way, a track encoded at 192kbps will take 192/128 as much space as a track encoded at 128kbps, so the total number of tracks will be 4,900 / (192/128), or 4,900 * 128 / 192 (This gives a slightly smaller number, which leads me to believe that the hard drive is actually smaller than advertised, or there is around 1GB of FS overhead, probably including firmware). Didn't they teach you basic algebra in primary school?

Re:Nice...but...

[MrMickS]

Apple has advertised using the stores N songs method since the launch of the iPod. This was using 128kbps MP3 and 4 minute song length, they now use 128kbps AAC as their benchmark. These settings are/were the default import settings for iTunes. As for how many songs you can fit on at a different bit rate, find a four minute (or so) song that you've encoded at that bit rate. Divide the size of the hard disk by the size of the encoded file.

Re:Nice...but...

[ajs318]

Assume that the metadata is insignificant compared to the audio, then the filesize will be roughly proportional with the bitrate. So you can assume that 192K MP3 files occupy 192/128 times the space of 128K MP3 files. 192 / 128 = 1.5, so I'd say you'd get about 3266 songs on it.

On the other hand, a portable device is most probably going to be used with fair-to-middling quality headphones as opposed to proper studio monitoring cans; and there's not much point making with the extra bits if the improvement they make is beyond the ken of the 'phones through which you will be listening. Since you obviously have the original discs for this to stand a chance of being even remotely legal, you might as well re-encode at the lower bitrate just to get the benefit of the larger storage capacity. It's at least worth an experiment, if you can enlist someone to help you with a blind trial.

Re:Nice...but...

[TheRaven64]

a portable device is most probably going to be used with fair-to-middling quality headphones as opposed to proper studio monitoring cans

This is not true of the iPod. Since it comes with a dock which has a line out it is very easy to use the headphones while mobile, then just drop it in the dock connected to your stereo while you are at home, for no interuption to your music listening.

Re:Nice...but...

[elcheesmo]

I remember when the first mp3s players started coming out (Rio, Lyra, etc...). Most of them had 32mb and claimed to store an hour of music. They must have assumed either it was 22khz or mono. While almost all the mp3s I get now or 192kbps, the majority of my collection is still 128kbs. The 128kbs/4min assumption seems reasonable enough. They're not fudging the figures nearly as bad as the could. And I doubt anybody is going to be disappointed when the only manage to get 3000 songs on their player. Besides, if you get caught by the RIAA with only 3000 songs, that might be a few less billion dollars they'll sue you for.

Re:Nice...but...

[Anonymous Coward]

This gives a slightly smaller number, which leads me to believe that the hard drive is actually smaller than advertised

Hard drives are always smaller than advertised these days. What they are actually saying is a Giga is a billion byte hard drive. You end up with 18.62GB on a 20GB hard drive. Just multiply the HD's advertised GB's by 0.9313 to discover it's real capacity.

Dell DJ Site

[sp1nl0ck]

The Dell DJ site is worth a look for a review and fairly in-depth discussion of the DJ, without being too fanboyish.

Re:Dell DJ Site

[phlyingpenguin]

The battery life report... give me a break? He has to be a headcase if he expects people to believe that (esp comming off a fanboy site)

mp3 players = natural market extension

[davejenkins]

What do OEMs contemplate?

So, everyone who wants a computer has one now, no new market there. Everyone who wants a laptop has one now, no new market there either... Now what?

Cell phones? nah-- not dependent on PCs, and hardware too disposable.

PDAs? Yea, we tried that, but market not really that big (mostly just businessman toy-mongers). We have some products there, and they are doing okay.

Hrmmmm... peripherals, peripherals....

I know! That iPod thingy is pretty cool. And Apple usually makes new markets pretty well! Let`s make an mp3 player!

---

I would expect an mp3 player from Sony, Samsung, and maybe Hitachi. IBM and HP are too into the high-end server market to bother.

iPod greatness!?

[daBass]

I am not disputing that the iPod is a good player, but what is great about only 8 hours battery life (and that much only when playing disgusting sounding 128Kb MP3s) without the option of taking a spare? How good are controls so sensitive it's way too easy to make the player do things you don't want? And did I mention soundquality is not oustanding, but just OK? So how does a 50% greater price tag make up for the slightly smaller size?

There was a time when the iPod was the only game in town, but it isn't anymore and there are other good players out there. I am a very satisfied owner of a Creative Jukebox Zen NX 30GB.

Maybe all those spammer are right, size does matter and bigger is better.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[darnok]

As a proud iPod owner, I have to respond to this ;->

The controls are pretty sensitive, but when you're carrying it around with you, you use the remote and disable the controls on the iPod itself. The remote's buttons aren't anywhere near as sensitive - you have to give them a decent push to use them.

The sound quality is winning "audiophile" recommendations; it's more than "just OK".

With respect to the high price tag, Apple got smart when they put a (token) address book and calendar on there. They're very close to useless, but the existence of these features qualifies the iPod as a tax deductible expense for lots of people. If you like, the "50% greater price tag" is being subsidised by the government. The lack of these features on other MP3 players means they don't qualify as being tax deductible, so they "cost more" as a result.

The addition of several 3rd party add-ons is also helping to push the iPod. Along with the expected car charges, battery kits etc., there's a FM transmitter (listen to your iPod through the car stereo without wiring it up!), an addon to dump your digital camera's card contents onto the disc and a few others that aren't of any interest to me personally. The 3rd party market sets the iPod apart from the rest; these features simply aren't available on other MP3 players.

I have to agree about the 8 hour battery life, though; it's not enough to commute to and from work and to use at work, which is what I'd like. Furthermore, since the life of the internal battery is limited to so many recharges, I suspect the iPod becomes a throwaway item after a couple of years when the batteries won't hold a charge any more.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Zobeid]

Disgusting sounding 128 kbps MP3s? I don't get it. . . I've tried, but I can't hear any difference between 128K MP3s and the audio CDs that they were ripped from. (I usually make 160K MP3s just to be on the safe side, and because that's the default setting of iTunes anyhow.)

Am I a tin-eared boob? Or am I listening to the wrong kind of music? Or both?

Incidentally. . . I'm 37 and don't need a hearing aid yet, but I don't have the ears of a teenager anymore either. Maybe hearing loss is a factor -- as opposed to merely being ignorant about what kind of distortion to listen for.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[daBass]

I have to admit I haven't heard it with my own files, but I wasn't overly impressed with what I heard. And the only time I saw an article refering to it as "audiophile" quality was when straight WAVs were being played.

I would think that the only goverment in the world that can be bribed into accepting it as a deductable is the US, so that doesn't apply to me. And with tax rates as low as they are, I doubt it makes up for that. Except if you get your company paying for your personal player, of course.

Car chargers are avialable for most players, just get a universal one that outputs the right voltage for your player, the actual charger part is built in. And in most countries outside the US, the FM transmitter is outlowed and besides, it would work on any player. The only one being unique to the iPod is the card reader (actualy, it isn't, some of the horribly looking Archos boxes support them) and I am sure others will follow suit, soon.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Liselle]

An excellent post, to which I will only add two things:

1) You can buy an adapter for extra power for the iPod (it's a case, so you can throw in standard or rechargable batteries, and help extend the life of the iPod for when you are not on the move, like at work)

2) If you are having troubles with iPod's internal battery: http://www.ipodlounge.com/faqs_more.php?id=103_0_1 0_0_C

Re:iPod greatness!?

[daBass]

Your milage may vary, but I can tell the difference instantly. How did you try, listen to your computer speakers or a proper stereo? Encode the same file in 128Kb and 256Kb and listen to both on the iPod. If you still can't hear it, you are a lucky man, I have to put up with buying bigger drives and lower battery life... ;-)

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Golias]

I have to agree about the 8 hour battery life, though; it's not enough to commute to and from work and to use at work, which is what I'd like.

I use the Belkin 12V cigarette-lighter adapter, which also uses the firewire port's line-outs, to listen in the car. If my iPod is slightly depleated in the morning, it gets charged up for the day during the commute, so I've yet to run the battery down while in the office.

As for battery replacements, some hackers have already done it, and it's not quite as hard as you would think, as long as you can get your hand on the right battery.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed... I don't notice the difference. Maybe people just want booming bass or something. *Shrugs*

Re:iPod greatness!?

[jpkunst]

I suspect the iPod becomes a throwaway item after a couple of years when the batteries won't hold a charge any more.

There are third-party battery replacements for the iPod available: http://www.pdasmart.com/ipodpartscenter.htm. (First item on the page.)

JP

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about battery life? Where I live, there are these strange three pin sockets on the wall, with a switch alongside each one. If you push the power plug of an appliance into one of these so-called "power points" and push the bottom half of the switch so you see the top half pop out and a painted-on red bit appears just to let you know, then your appliance works fine without batteries. When you become tired of using your appliance, you push in the top half of the switch so the red bit disappears, withdraw the plug, coil the power lead around the pins so as to avoid painful plantar penetration during periods of pedal naturism, and put the appliance somewhere safe.

Seriously, I make a point that no DC-in jack == no sale. Most of the "battery powered" kit I've ever bought has lived and died without ever going near a battery. Eight hours is plenty long enough to be spending away from a power point. Or you can always rig up some hefty D-size NiMH cells to a plug that fits the player's DC-in jack.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Top marginal tax rate in the usa is just under 40% and it isn't that terribly hard to hit if you live somewhere like NY City or Silly Valley where cost of living is nuts to begin with. So, if you can write off close to 40% or, hey, even 30% of the cost of the unit that is what, around $150 saved from uncle sam?

Re:iPod greatness!?

[nelsonal]

Grab some techno or R&B with an interesting baseline (quick punches, changing frequencies, I noticed in about 2 seconds with the Propellerheads), and use a sub, it seems like the lighter codecs do a worse job on the sub 50 Hz frequencies because so many people won't be listening with a proper speaker system. WM9 and AAC at 192 kbps both to a better job in the lower frequencies, but 128kbps mp3s or even quality 7 or 8 oggs didn't. I have decent but not audiophile stuff (Paradigm speakers around and a Technics amp), and I run my computer through the home theater system. Over most computer speakers or walkman style headphones you are probably wasting time beyond 64 kbps with a good codec.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Er... remind me again what the point of buying portable equipment is if you let it sit still...?

Re:iPod greatness!?

[SithLordOfLanc]

Archos makes a Jukebox 20 unit that appears to do all than you say the iPod does PLUS has a gadget available trip video from TV and VCR as well as a 1.3 MP still AND video camera attachment. Add USB 2.0 OOB and Optional FW and you've got a killer piece.
They have larger available as well. The newest one has a 3 inch screen on it too. I've been using the older 20GB version for over a year and have never had a bit of trouble.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[genka]

I own a "docking" IPod. This is my 3rd mp3 player and the best one.However, there are some things I don't like about it:

1 "Touchpad-like" controls- you touch it in a pocket, and it skips a song or does something else
2 Sometimes those buttons don't respond- have to touch up to ten times (not sure if I got a bad unit, or this is typical)
3 Can't "drug and drop" mp3 files on iPod- must use a software
4 Doesn't understand file names or directories- identifies fiels only by ID3 tags
5 Battery life- have to charge it as often as analog cell phone. Forget about overnight trips without a charger
6 Forgets the last played track after being connected to a PC, sometimes does it for no reason at all. Very annoying to audiobook listeners.
7 Clip on the remote is designed in such a way that the controls face outside only when clipped to a shirt with buttons on the left- ladies style.Does it confirm a popular Slashdot opinion that Apple is for gays?

Re:iPod greatness!?

[daBass]

I hear it in all and every style, though some more than other; piano/string/vocals ballads for instance are terrible, because there is so little information anyway, the encoder has to throw away the important stuff to make the bitrate. But at 256Kb (Fraunhofer pro codec) and through my pro audio card at home, I have to admit to not being able to hear the difference between original CD and MP3, for which I have done blind tests. At 192K it was hit and miss and at 128, I spotted the MP3 every time. Memory is cheap these days, so 256K it is.

About the walkman style headphones: it all depends on the headphones! I use Sony MDR-G72s, which are actualy really good and it's easy to spot the difference. I have a handfull of downloaded files in my collection (the rest is all own stuff), usualy at 128Kb and they sound terrible compared to. I guess it also doesn't help that many dumbos think that faster MP3 encoders = better. (Xing comes to mind, shudder)

Re:iPod greatness!?

[manly_15]

Apple got smart when they put a (token) address book and calendar on there. They're very close to useless

I'm suprised to hear someone say that. For me, having the (basic) PIM functions has been a lifesaver! I use the alarms so I don't make sure I miss any lectures, the todo list to keep on top of my homework, the address book for quick access to phone numbers. I even use OmniOutliner (free with my powerbook!) to export my lecture notes to my iPod for quick refrence. I have a shared calendar in iCal with movie release dates so when I'm out with friends it's easy to see what's playing. I would easily pay $100 for these features.

My only complaint is that I can't mark todo's as completed. While I can understand limiting other editing functions, a checkmark widget should be easy to implement on the ipod. Perhaps in the next software revision :)

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the Archos come with a forklift to help you move it around?

Re:iPod greatness!?

[cens0r]

Unless you're playing WAV's I wouldn't talk about "audiophile" quality. I would bet the rio karma playing flac would probably sound better than the iPod playing the same song compressed.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[cens0r]

Actually, when I listen to MP3's I get booming bass. I think it's because the 60-100Hz range is compressed less than the 20-60Hz range. Therefore when I listen to the music at higher volumes the lower end doesn't amplify the same as the boomier frequencies.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[cens0r]

It also has alot to do with what you listen to. If you're listening to complex music with tons of different frequencies playing at one time, it's going to be harder to compress, and hence will sound worse. A good example is the polyphonic spree. There are 25+ members in the band. The feature a choir with girls singing alto and men singing tenor and barritone. The lead singer is a tenor. The have keyboards, guitar, bass, drumms, percussion, violin, viola, flute, trumpet, tuba, harp, etc. In their more complex arrangements it really doesn't sound that good in ANY lossy compressed format i've tried. But on your average 3 or 4 piece band, MP3 even 128kbps will sound find to most people.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[RestiffBard]

Someone blowing on a dog whistle must drive you to fits of agony.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[dekker]

The FM transmitter isn't a differentiator, it's available for any MP3 player (or any audio source for that matter). For instance, this one from Belkin. If it was built-in, that would definitely be a differentiating feature.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know there's a microphone addon, but it's just a little microphone that attaches directly to the iPod. Is there a way to get a line-in? I want to use a good battery-powered directional mic to record lectures.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[plover]

I can't personally speak for your boobness, but I think you might be a bit tin-eared. You may also just be listening to the "right" kind of music where the distortion caused by the extra compression is less noticeable.

I find 128kbps audio to be noticably "flatter" sounding (less dynamic, not pitched too low as in a musical flat) than uncompressed music. The highs are "muddy". I think 192kbps is OK, but I still rip at 256 or 360 when possible.

If you're interested, try listening to a stream encoded at 64kbps, or even 32kbps. You should definitely hear the mud or flatness at these lower quality compression rates. That'll give you an idea of what kind of distortion you might expect to hear at the 128 kbps rate.

Anyway, it's a 100% personal thing. I'm over 40, and spent way too much time listening to The Who the way they were meant to be heard. Even so, I still can tell when lower qualities of compression are being used.

Is it even Dell technology?

[rsfpc]

First off, Musicmatch has always been... hmmm a player in the shadow of Winamps greatness so, in that they would partner with Dell to bring the DJ online tells me right up front that this is a gimmick. I don't have a real opinion just yet until I can learn more on the devices scalability. I guess my position is "waiting"...

Re:Is it even Dell technology?

[Anonymous Coward]

That Dell DJ-player is re-branded Creative's NOMAD Jukebox Zen Xtra

same thing that makes $300 cell phones better

[jbellis]

ipod is smaller and sexier.

Re:same thing that makes $300 cell phones better

[Anonymous Coward]

If you worry that your friends are questioning your sexuality, you have problems that no portable music player will fix.

However, a good way to hide your homosexuality would be to get a lap top and paint it camoflage. Add a confederate flag sticker and you're good to go.

Re:same thing that makes $300 cell phones better

[Anonymous Coward]

If you carry an Apple device around and aren't thinking about it, you might wanna watch your cornhole. Just because you think you're okay, doesn't mean everybody else is okay.

Re:same thing that makes $300 cell phones better

[Anonymous Coward]

Tonight on Fox: When Homosexuals Attack!

Eww, pastel is soooo 90s. Gag me with a spoon!

Not universally supported however.

[rueben]

OS Supported: Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP, Windows 2000
Supported Media Players: Dell Jukebox by Musicmatch, Windows Media Player 9, RealONE Player

Well, the iPod was only available to Apple users to start with and they sold pretty well...

I wonder if you can use this as a device to store files like the iPod. If it is plug-and-pray w/USB 2.0, couldn't they say it is supported by any OS that supports USB?

The MMJB Store is a copy of iTMS

[Sonic McTails]

If you check there link to the music store (I can't post it as it uses Javascript), you'll notice it's almost extactly the same as the iTMS. Music can be on upto three PCs, you can burn to CD, songs are 99 cents with most full CDs $9.99. It's like they copyed the iTMS and made an clone of it.

Re:The MMJB Store is a copy of iTMS

[Anonymous Coward]

> you can burn to CD

Umm, if you look at the fine print - you've got to pay MusicMatch $20+tax to burn at the full speed of your CD burner. Otherwise it's crippled.

Apple's iTunes is free and doesn't have that limitation plus it's not using that shitty WMA format.

Re:The MMJB Store is a copy of iTMS

[bendude]

What this link?

www.dell4me.com/music

Re:The MMJB Store is a copy of iTMS

[LemonYellow]

I suppose that Apple has done the hard work of softening up the music companies a little. I suppose that all the music services will go to the same user rights eventually. At least Apple was first to market.

I don't suppose that Dell is talking about supplying music outside of the USA?

Re:The MMJB Store is a copy of iTMS

[Sonic McTails]

No, it's the link on that page "What 99 cents gets you" that I'm talking about.

Re:The MMJB Store is a copy of iTMS

[Sonic McTails]

According to Musicmatchs's Web Site, the service is for US residents only. There is a clear screenshop of there music store, and it looks like crap compared to iTMS.

Dells Business strategy...

[Sophrosyne]

All Dell seems to do is look at what Apple is promoting, try and copy it, then throw on some homo-erotic ads showing some model-esque interns in some fantasy Dell-Land then hope to sell the stuff.
It seems to work, Dell does seem sell their crap-puters probably because they can get their PCs looking cheaper in a standard configuration by cheaping out on the Hard Drive, Ram, video-card, or optical drive.
The most simple consumer thinks... "Dell seems popular, it's cheap so i'll buy it"....you are probably thinking i'm a bitter mac user, but I'm not-- I just hate those Dell ads.

Can't load music from outside sources

[abe ferlman]

According to the review I read, this device only lets you load music through the musicmatch jukebox service- is this their way of trying to enforce DRM?

Is it really too much to ask for a USB mass storage interface? It's so simple, and everyone who has a computer understands it- it's just a new disk.

Geez.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[Edward Scissorhands]

You're right; you can only get it to play music that you've added using their bundled version of MusicMatch Jukebox. However, it still does function as a Mass Storage Device-- you can copy whatever you want onto it. However, it will not play any audio files that you copy over manually. I would assume that someone would be able to write some software that gets around this if it could be discovered what the MusicMatch program does that is so special. But until that's available (and provided it doesn't get DMCA-slapped), I don't know how useful the player is to non-Windows users.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[jdreed1024]

Is it really too much to ask for a USB mass storage interface? It's so simple, and everyone who has a computer understands it- it's just a new disk.

Which is another benefit the iPod has going for it. It's a simple firewire disk drive (I think the second generation ones are USB2 drives or firewire drives - I have an older model). Plug it in, and your Mac (or PC, if you formatted it as FAT32) will see it as a plain vanilla firewire drive. You can dump files on there without affecting your its use as a music player at all (well, unless you specifically go in and erase the hidden directory structure containing the MP3s, but that takes effort and it's your own damn fault).

My iPod has saved my ass more than once - once when I had to take my laptop in for servicing, I simply backed up my important data to the iPod, and wiped the laptop drive (I don't trust the technicians). Again when I had to bring a large (read ~2.3GB) data set into work. I did not have a DVD burner (nor did work have a machine that reads DVD-ROMs), and uploading that much data via a cable modem that's throttled to 256Kbps upstream sucks hard. So, I could either have archived the data set with zip or rar and split it across several CDs, or used my iPod. The latter option was decidedly faster, and worked great.

A friend was telling me how I got screwed by spending twice as much on my iPod as he spent on his Nomad, but I told him, add up how much you spent on your Nomad and how much you spent on your 1GB pendrive, and now see who got the better deal. Of course, if you care about WMA audio, then maybe this Dell player or something similar is the way to go for you. Me, I prefer to keep my MP3s on an open filesystem.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[Sean Starkey]

The Neuros (www.neurosaudio.com) is a USB interface. It's currently USB 1.1, but will be releasing USB 2.0 real "soon".

The Neuros also has a way to upgrade the firmware easily, allowing additional features as the product matures.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[profet]

Quote:
According to the review I read, this device only lets you load music through the musicmatch jukebox service- is this their way of trying to enforce DRM?

That's because windows users like choice.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[Trollificus]

If I'm not mistaken, the Nomad also has a DRM structure where you can copy music to the drive but not from it(you can only delete). At least, this was the case with their original Nomad Jukebox, and also the reason I decided to pass on it in favour of a simple(and cheap) MP3 CD player.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because on the iPod you can just copy MP3 files over and it plays them, right? Oh wait - it can't, you have to use iTunes to send them over into the secret filesystem and database. I guess it's really not any different than the Dell scheme, but of course it's still an advantage because Apple did it.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[flink]

gtkpod or ephPod will sync your iPod without having to use the horrible MusicMatch software.

The iPod works fine with Linux. Looks just like an external USB or Firewire drive. The only time I've connected my iPod to a Windows machine was to format it - I wasn't brave enough to manually back the firmware up and repartion it for FAT32.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[Edward Scissorhands]

I was talking about the dell kit.

It's an MP3 player ...

[peatbakke]

... and ... well, I guess that's it. Can I use it as a portable hard drive? Can I use it to sync calendars and contacts between work and home? Can I extend it with accessories for voice recording, download from compact flash cards, play games, or hack away with my own scripts?

I dunno. If I'm going to spend $300 on a gadget, it better do a hell of a lot more than simply play music. I think a full featured iPod with 10 GB of space is hell of a better deal than a 20 GB hard drive with a head phone jack.

Re:It's an MP3 player ...

[watzinaneihm]

Can I use it as a portable hard drive? Can I use it to sync calendars and contacts between work and home? Can I extend it with accessories for voice recording, download from compact flash cards, play games, or hack away with my own scripts

Why dont you just RTA? They say you can sync your computer with the musicplayer, it has a built in microphone and recorder so no accesories required, does not have a compact flash reader or any easy programmable interface. It has also got a remote control port built in.

Re:It's an MP3 player ...

[Anonymous Coward]

The ipod has a remote control port too. And the parent was talking about using it as a USB drive, which Dell's thingie doesn't do.

Close but no cigar

[SuperBanana]

Is it worthy or is it just another player that falls short of the iPod's greatness?

Let's see:

• iPod: revision #3 or 4(I've lost track.) Like the rest of Apple's electronics, each revision is better than the last and encorporates everything they learned from the previous. Dell: first shot. Probably went to taiwanese companies and said "make us an iPod".
• Larger all around
• buttons versus iPod's touch-sensitive, sealed, no-moving-parts interface
• No remote, no mic, no flash reader, no nifty powered-from-iPod FM transmitters.
• Not cross-platform
• Not useable as a storage device(or is it? Couldn't tell)
• Not nearly as pretty(chrome, white.Tough to beat)
• World's most popular online music service versus...musicmatch.

I take it back- not even close.

Re:Close but no cigar

[PurplePhase]

The specs (see the dell.com link posted earlier) say:

• Recorder, mono @ 8Khz
  
• USB hard drive capability
  
• And the FM transmitter prevents the iPod from Euro markets, IIRC.

It disturbs me that someone else thinks it can use only Musicmatch as a source for songs, though. I wonder how that could be with the HD ability.

8-PP

Re:Close but no cigar

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you're missing some of the positive aspects:

• For one thing, it has about 2x the battery life of the iPod.
  
• The look and feel versus the iPod is more a subjective thing, IMHO, and not simply "worse".
  
• Does have a mic (see middle of this page).
  
• $100 cheaper price tag for the same amount of storage space (20GB)

Some of the other things may or may be not be fixed in the future, too, but of course this is purely speculative:

• Remote and FM transmitter could possibly be offered as accessories.
  
• Software/firmware might be upgradeable, possibly allowing it to be used cross-platform, as a storage device, and with other programs besides from MusicMatch (although probably not if Dell has an agreement with MM).

Still, the Creative Nomad Jukebox Zen seems to offer many of these features too, including the longer battery life, and it's even cheaper than the Dell. *shrug*

Re:Close but no cigar

[salah67]

There is a remote, it is even included with the 20G model. You're post was pretty quick. I prefer my iPod, but please get the info right before you post!

Re:Close but no cigar

[GreenHell]

I don't know anything about this, so this is just conjecture:

It's possible that Musicmatch is used to build a database of the songs, therefore allowing for fast access.

Actually, that's quite likely. Therefore you would only be able to add songs through a mechanism that creates and updates said database.

While it's possible that it doesn't do this, that doesn't seem likely for performance reasons. I don't know about you, but I prefer not to wait while the hardware searches through the HD for every available song and then reads the ID3 tags off them.

Re:Close but no cigar

[Anonymous Coward]

Errrr... That should read 'while the software searches through the HD'

That's is what you get when you edit the middle of a sentence.

Re:Close but no cigar

[alienw]

Read the article, you dumb fuck. It says SPECIFICALLY that it has a mic (which the ipod lacks), there IS a remote, and that it's made by Creative and not some taiwanese company. As for prettiness: I believe the iPod (and most other apple stuff) is the epitome of "ugly". The iPod is only compatible with Windows and Mac, so it's not cross-platform, either. And you can use it with pretty much any music service that supports WMA, of which there are several.

Re:Close but no cigar

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone drop this post's score to 2 for misinformation. :/

Re:Close but no cigar

[Anonymous Coward]

And the FM transmitter prevents the iPod from Euro markets, IIRC

Hmm, this EU ipod lying next to me must be imaginary then. Now, where is that shrink's number...

It is true that the itrip (the fm transmitter) isn't legal in the EU. But you can still buy it here, and it's not even made or sold by apple.

Re:Close but no cigar

[Anonymous Coward]

STFU, YOU'RE the dumb fuck -- linux zealot! somebody call the waaaaaambulance, another product doesn't support linux! cry me a fucking river!

Re:Close but no cigar

[Anonymous Coward]

Only compatible with Windows and Mac? Hmmmm... More than one plaform, I think that sounds like it's cross platform to me.

As for Linux, the friends who keep sending me links to how to get ephpod working under Linux in an effort to make me switch must be sending figments of their deranged imagination.

So they don't support Linux directly and you have to use a 3rd party program. Boo hoo. Do you think this product will be any different?

No choice ?

[DarkDust]

From Dell site: With the Dell DJ, our customers no longer have to choose between what they can afford and what they really want.

I don't have much choice anyways, since I fsck'ing want Ogg Vorbis support, and AFAIK only iRiver's products support that, damnit !

As a DJ and audiophile I've archived my CD collection with Ogg Vorbis, and I'm not going to recode everything to MP3 just to have it portable... my PC would be busy for several days.

Re:No choice ?

[Mr Smidge]

Hear hear...

The parent makes a good point that I feel exactly the same about. How much can it cost to implement an Ogg Vorbis decoder anyway?

Let's see:
Open source integer-only decoding algorithm, check.
Zero royalties, check.

The demand isn't going to change hugely until some hardware players are out there.. so what's stopping the hardware players get out there with Vorbis support? (don't say lack of demand, I know that already)

Re:No choice ?

[sebi]

As a DJ and audiophile I've archived my CD collection with Ogg Vorbis, [...]

May I enquire what you, as a DJ, do with these Ogg files? Traktor doesn't seem to support it and as far as I know there aren't any other viable computer-DJ-solutions out there. Traktor does support the iPod, incidentally, but maybe it will support that Dell thingy (or other players) at some point in the future.

Re:No choice ?

[DarkDust]

May I enquire what you, as a DJ, do with these Ogg files? Traktor doesn't seem to support it and as far as I know there aren't any other viable computer-DJ-solutions out there. Traktor does support the iPod, incidentally, but maybe it will support that Dell thingy (or other players) at some point in the future.

I do nothing as DJ with Ogg Vorbis... I still find my CDs way more inspiring than just some lists with names. I just wanted to highlight the audiophile part ;-)

My collegue uses AtomixMP3, which really is a very nice DJ program and has really intelligent GUI, but I just like my CD cases better, although they are now becoming a space problem and are far heavier than a PC. Besides, AtomixMP3 also doesn't support Ogg Vorbis so sometimes when my friend wants songs from me I have to recode them. No problem, shell scripting rulez, but still annoying.

The thing was that last year I decided it's way easier for me to leave my CD cases in our disco and have copies of them in my office (where I listen to music the most), I read a detailed article about music formats and since all players under Linux I know off support Ogg Vorbis I decided to go the Ogg Vorbis way since it seemed that they offer a better sound at the same bitrate than MP3... and now that I have finally encoded my collection I don't like to recode them, which is why I will buy an iRiver even though I'd like to get an iPod instead.

Re:No choice ?

[stripes]

How much can it cost to implement an Ogg Vorbis decoder anyway?

Testing costs money and takes time. The vague possiability that you might get sued by someone who thinks Ogg Vorbis violates their IP (even if it doesn't). You need a bit of space for the code which could have held the breakout game or something.

In other words "a little bit, but not much, unless you get unlucky".

But what do you get for it? There isn't a lot of demand (I say that, and I want it!), it doesn't let you make your product cheaper, it doesn't let you use a popular music service that folks want, it doesn't really do much past letting you put "OGG Vorbis support" on the box.

It's a hard sell, even with it being just this side of free!

Re:No choice ?

[cens0r]

The Rio Karma supports Vorbis and FLAC. It has the ability to use ethernet to sync using a java so that you can use any OS. It's equivalent to the iPod in every other way I can find. And it even weights .1oz less. This or the iRiver (i've had a good experience with the slimX) is what I would buy.

Good for the iPod

[KJE]

We may joke about this being YAiPOD, but i think having things like the Dell DJ and the Rio Karma out on the market will are a great thing for the iPod.

When the iPod originally came out, it was out of this world. Nobody had seen anything like it. Now it's a couple of years later, and yes it's smaller, and got a bigger hard drive, but not a lot has changed.

Having these new music players on the market is going to make Apple have to start thinking again. I'm not saying that Apple has to come out and give us a brand new, kick ass iPod (although I wouldn't be supprised if they did), it's just that now, they're going to have to work for that marketshare.

Re:Good for the iPod

[Slime-dogg]

Another good thing about competition (for consumers) is that it tends to drop the prices. I have a hard time believing that an iPod costs so much to manufacture, that it has to carry a pricetag of $300+. If Apple sold for $20 over OEM parts, assembly and shipping, the iPod might be cheaper, and Apple would still be making a profit.

Just another iPod wannabee

[jesboat]

:-)

Says me with my 10GB 3G iPod

Rio Riot

[Loosewire]

Got one and its been great to me, slightly bulky (smaller than a personal cd player though) Great song navigation, poor software to transferr songs on windows (RioJukebox) but its a great little unit :)
Rio's new multi gig player looks even better, ogg and flacc support and i *think* though not sure you can use it as a removeable hdd

A summary of what's up

[Schlemphfer]

1) How does it look?

The form factor is exactly what you'd expect from something with Dell on the nameplate: it's totally nondescript. It's actually made by Creative Labs and rebranded. As far as looks go, it's not an iPod any more than my 1990 Accord is a Porsche 911. In other words, it's not bad looking, but it's not good looking either.

2) What advantages does it have?

It looks like there's one, and only one, big advantage of this over the iPod -- this thing has a 16 hour battery life (The Tech TV people tested it and says you will get 15 hours.) That is a really compelling feature; when I spend an entire day driving, or have a long flight with a nasty layover, I can toast my iPod's battery.

The Dell is also a bit cheaper, but not by a lot. A 20 MB unit goes for $329, while Apple sells its 20 MB iPod for $399 at its store. I'd personally want to see the Dell more like 50% cheaper than the iPod for it to be a compelling alternative.

3) Is it an iPod killer?

In battery life, yes. In price, sort of. In looks, absolutely not. Tech TV gives a slight nod to the iPod, but without saying why.

Dell's entry into the field just means that digital music players are no longer cutting-edge products, and are about to be commodified. Expect to be able to get a good one, though perhaps not an iPod, for under $100 within the next couple years.

Re:A summary of what's up

[meta-monkey]

Remember that an educational discount at the Apple store applies to an iPod, too. I got the 15GB model last summer and it was $359 instead of $399.

Oh, and I freakin' love it, and wouldn't trade it for this Dell thing, ever.

Re:A summary of what's up

[amembleton]

It looks like there's one, and only one, big advantage of this over the iPod -- this thing has a 16 hour battery life (The Tech TV people tested it and says you will get 15 hours.) That is a really compelling feature; when I spend an entire day driving, or have a long flight with a nasty layover, I can toast my iPod's battery.

The Dell is also a bit cheaper, but not by a lot. A 20 MB unit goes for $329, while Apple sells its 20 MB iPod for $399 at its store. I'd personally want to see the Dell more like 50% cheaper than the iPod for it to be a compelling alternative.

Wouldn't you get a bit bored listening to 20MB of music over and over for 16 hours?

Re:A summary of what's up

[watzinaneihm]

Sheesh, I'll never understand the slashdot point of view
When music industry hypes up Brittany spears or Shakira (looks good, sounds bad) every geek worth his salt hates it. When Apple does the same thing its a good thing ?
I have listened to the iPod and it is excellent as far as sound quality is concerned. But apple refuses to release tech specs, so we have to take the audiophiles word for it,who talk in terms I cant understand. Dell on the otherhand talks of a Signal to noise of 94dB and harmonic distortion of 0.1 percent on their website, which I think is pretty good.
iPod does not have a recorder built in, while Dell has one.It also has a remote control port built in.
Dell is cheaper, also has a longer battery life (almost double that of iPod). Ipod has less movable parts and so is probably more long lasting. Dell player is almost the same size as iPod.
And last (atleast as far as I am concerned), Dell looks ugly while iPod is not. Hardly an unequal contest.

Re:A summary of what's up

[ceeam]

Can anyone explain me what's the reason having 15 hrs play time when you only can store 20 MB of audio?? 20 MB is like.... 20 minutes of MP3 maybe. I'm sure I would NOT like to listen _any_ song for 40th(!) time in a day or two.

Re:A summary of what's up

[PPGMD]

Wouldn't you get a bit bored listening to 20MB of music over and over for 16 hours?

I can't complain, I owned the original Rio with a whole 32MB of Flash memory built in (along with the big IEEE-1284 interface). I am never owned any of the media cards.

Though I have upgraded to a 15GB iPod after someone stole the Rio this summer.

Re:A summary of what's up

[Hawthorne01]

When music industry hypes up Brittany spears or Shakira (looks good, sounds bad) every geek worth his salt hates it. When Apple does the same thing its a good thing ?

That's because any geek can go buy an iPod, but has zero chance of getting ahold of Shakira or Britney SPears. ;-)

Re:A summary of what's up

[larry bagina]

I hope they mean GB. I got a 64mb flash-based MUVO mp3 player. The thing weighs almost nothing, but I had a hard time finding a CD short enough that I could fit all the songs onto it. 20 mb means your songs will sound like shit, or a 3-song limit.

Re:A summary of what's up

[Anonymous Coward]

Shakira (looks good, sounds bad)

Shakira sold her soul to the American music industry. Buy any of her earlier (non-english) albums, and you will see that she is far from the "Latin Britney" that she is often stereocast as,

Re:A summary of what's up

[avdp]

The original poster made a type. It's 20GB.

Re:A summary of what's up

[Anonymous Coward]

But apple refuses to release tech specs, so we have to take the audiophiles word for it,who talk in terms I cant understand. Dell on the otherhand talks of a Signal to noise of 94dB and harmonic distortion of 0.1 percent on their website, which I think is pretty good.

If you don't understand what the audiophiles are talking about, then you don't know enough to interpret Dell's numbers usefully, either.

Re:A summary of what's up

[hellfire]

As far as looks go, it's not an iPod any more than my 1990 Accord is a Porsche 911.

The fact that its a 13 year old car doesn't help the appearance factor either. How's the paint job holding up? ;)

Re:A summary of what's up

[Anonymous Coward]

There's an optional clip-on battery pack for the ipod which doubles its battery life. Sure, it makes it bigger too, but as the dell dj shows, size is the price you pay for battery life.

Re:A summary of what's up

[lowmagnet]

Stereocast, eh? I prefer surround sound, myself.

Re:A summary of what's up

[stripes]

When music industry hypes up Brittany spears or Shakira (looks good, sounds bad) every geek worth his salt hates it. When Apple does the same thing its a good thing ?

Who says Apple has done the same thing? You have "Looks good, sounds bad" (Brittany/Shakira) on one hand and "Looks good, isn't perfect" (iPod) on the other. There is a big differnece between "that thing sucks but lots of people buy into the hype" and "that thing is pretty dern good (but there are better) and yet people buy into the hype".

And that's even assuming the 4 ways you have chosen to compare the Dell and iPod are the only 4 things that matter! Or that you even did it right (which matters more, what Dell writes on paper for the StoN, or what you can hear with your ears?)

Re:A summary of what's up

[elemental23]

When music industry hypes up Brittany spears or Shakira (looks good, sounds bad) every geek worth his salt hates it. When Apple does the same thing its a good thing ?

How can you compare musicians (or in this case, singers/performers) with hardware? Bands exist to make music. If they don't sound good, they aren't worth anything. The best looking people in the world (which those two certainly are not, IMO) can't make bad music sound better.

An .mp3 player, on the other hand, is something you'll be carrying around with you and looking at quite a bit. Think of it as an accessory like a nice watch or something. You'd want a watch to look good as well as work well, right?

Re:A summary of what's up

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want REAL specs for the iPod, go read the Stereophile review. No wait, DON'T read the review! Skip to page 5 "measurements" where they hook the 3rd generation iPod up to the AudioPrecision and also do jitter analysis for the DA converters. Read the text that goes along with the measurements:

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?934: 5

This is better info (spec wise) than any MP3 player manufacturer publishes with their product. Not only do you get to see things like THD and signal to noise, you get plots that show how these parameters relate to frequency in the audio band. And for what its worth, the iPod performed extremely well in these measurements.

The real problem here

[ColourlessGreenIdeas]

There's no defined USB filesystem-level interface. As a result, the devices that look like drives have to read and write blocks and then try and understand what's happened when they get unplugged (e.g. the Archos, which is a bit clunky) or have a special file that needs to be updated (e.g. the iPod). If there was a USB profile that talked in terms of files and directories it'd be much easier for the device to keep track of what's on the disc. Doing this would also make it easy to have a device that can play and sync at the same time. But it's up to the USB people.

And what about the iHP-120

[NtwoO]

As if Iriver didn't make a suitable match to these dogs. The I river comes with Ogg support and a whizz of cool features. They may be a little more expensive, but it tends to be worth every penny.

Re:And what about the iHP-120

[Bob Davis, Retired]

The neat thing about the iRiver is that once you attach its 'backpack' hard drive, upping the stored music from 128MB to 20GB, it's so bit and heavy that it actually creates its own black hole!

Seriously, the iRiver is one of the most retarded things I have ever seen. Plus, it has OGG support!

Re:And what about the iHP-120

[onemorehour]

Wow, you're clearly thinking of a different product than this.

But, at least you were trying to be offensive and clever.

Lack of apt-get for iPod/Dell DJ biggest problem

[Debian Troll's Best]

Due to the many hours I spend flying these days attending various open source conferences, a good MP3 player with large capacity and battery life is a must. I have been considering the Apple iPod, and now the Dell DJ very seriously. However, there is one very big shortcoming which both of them suffer from.

apt-get support is absolutely non-existent. When I want my music synchronized from my Debian box to my MP3 player, I want to do it with a simple 'apt-get install music' command. And when Justin Timberlake launches his latest album, adding it to my collection should only be a simple matter of 'apt-get upgrade Justin-Timberlake'.

Does anyone know if there is planned apt-get support in either of these MP3 players any time soon? It's a big issue for me. The only other thing I'd like to see changed is the iPod's interface be altered to use the 'dselect' interface for selecting songs and playlists. That would be cool.

It doesn't look so bad

[gsdali]

not as good as my 3rd generation iPod but good nonetheless. It looks pretty big to me but the photos may not do it justice. It doesn't appear to have PIM features , which I find very useful on the iPod, but I'm sure a small software updates would sort that out.

I'd like to see some real world battery life figures. I get much less than the Apple advertised 8 hours but then I use it to drive fairly high impedance headphones.

We'll have to see how it sells though and how it faces up in a marketplace dominated by the iPod in terms of marketing and brand recognition.

Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Polaris]

is to be avoided. Thank God Apple released iTunes for Windows, so I don't have to use MMJB any more; dumb, painfully unintuitive, annoying and just plain incompetent (told me my iPod was "full" after loading about a hundred songs!)

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing crashes my Windows like the fucking iTunes Music Store. I'm talking FORMAT, REINSTALL WINDOWS, NEVER TRUST APPLE AGAIN. Yeah, iTMS has a nicer interface, but IT DESTROYED WEEKS OF WORK.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[nuxx]

I purchased a 30GB iPod back in May.

And almost returned it.

MusicMatch is such garbage that I had a very, very hard time getting it to see my iPod. Once I did, I had a hard time getting any of my personal music in it. I too had the problem with my iPod being 'full' with only a few songs in it...

Then I found EphPod. This piece of software kept me using my iPod under Windows for a few months. After that I got a used PowerMac G4 Cube, switched to iTunes, and never looked back.

With iTunes for Windows I think that Apple finally has a complete system in place for users to rip and sync music properly. Not the MusicMatch hack...

This is a good thing, in my opinion.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[rhizome]

Good thing you backup regularly.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[cosmo7]

It's totally messed up your caps lock key too.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing you're a pompous ass fanboy

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

that made me laugh out loud...you rock

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

Like everything related to Apple, we're going to attack you for telling us your experiences if they don't support our "Apple sales agenda". These crashes did happen, they were widely reported, and were the reason for Apple issuing a patch the very next day, but we don't want you to ruin the good work of selling Apples to the Linux geeks that we're doing here. We are trying to kill Free Software and the GPL by cutting off their developers and converting them to Mac OS X. Our idea is to get them to trade a little freedom for a little beauty, and it's working. So shut up. If you don't have anything nice to say about Apple, don't say anything at all or we will mod you down as a troll.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[lowmagnet]

Good thing you don't know the difference between a serious post and a troll.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Thank God. The Lord is good, and he works through his Holy Servant, Steve Jobs. Without him, the world would be nothing. [*rolls eyes*]

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

oh wait... did I just respond to myself, pretending I was someone else? Why, yes I did!

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, NOBODY does. They're ALL trolls. We mod up the trolls we like, and mod down the trolls we don't like. But they're all trolls.

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

that made me laugh out loud...you rock

:)

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Anonymous Coward]

heh.
This is why it's sometimes worth reading "Score: 0" AC posts!

The importance of iPod

[DeepDarkSky]

it isn't so much that it's a nice sleek design that makes everyone - not just geeks - lust after it. Partly, it's the higher, mass-perceived "premium" price tag that makes people think it's better. The iPod is a well-design little gadget, but hardly the best, nor the most cost effective. No, the iPod is successful because it is part of a complete marketed solution.

You want to listen to MP3s you ripped from CDs? no problem. You want to listen to MP3s you downloaded from IRC/Usenet/? Sure. If you are a regular consumer who is not tech savvy, who don't know where to get MP3s, you can now purchase from the iTunes store, and get legally, and worry-free, the music files that you'd like. Hate to break this to you - not everyone LIKES to download MP3s illegally - especially those who can afford to pay for it. Those who cannot afford to, or just plain don't want to, well, they have to turn to illegal means.

So what Apple has done is say, look, we have a complete solution for you. You can easily go anywhere with this iPod thing, it's pretty, it's "premium", and we will make it easy for you to get MP3s without worry about legal issues, without having to know how to rip CDs, without having to know how to download MP3s illegally using P2P programs, which may contain malware and cause you to share files that you are not aware of which can then get you sued by RIAA.

The RIAA's suits' merit notwithstanding, people just don't want to even take a chance that they'd be put into that position (which is exactly RIAA's scare tactic).

And that, is the greatness of iPod. It's not the device itself, it's the whole thing.

Another player crippled...

[PurplePhase]

...because it's missing a second interface: 1394

I'd also like to know the playback time with the backlight on continuously - that should have been given so we know the other end of that spectrum. Unless, of course, everyone knows what music they want to listen to over a 16 hour period when they program the playlist back at home while the battery is charging...

8-PP

Re:Another player crippled...

[alienw]

Hey, retarded assmonkey: get with the program. Nobody needs firewire when the player has USB 2.0. Not to mention that only Macs come with firewire built-in.

Re:Another player crippled...

[Zed2K]

Unless of course you buy any modern pc. About 90% of them now come with firewire ports also. Oh and if you get any of the new soundblaster cards they all have firewire also.

I'd still use firewire for an mp3 player and video instead of usb. I'll leave usb for my keyboard, mouse, printer, and compact flash reader.

Re:Another player crippled...

[PurplePhase]

There's also the fact that a variety of modern PCs don't yet come with USB 2.0 out of the box versus the elder Firewire which is built into my 2+ yo x86 mobo. It would be great if they could make an existing install base happy!

I wonder how many people use their iPod as a sink for their digital video recorders...

8-PP

Re:Another player crippled...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad I'm not you.

Re:Another player crippled...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... Then this Dell with a built-in firewire port and no USB 2.0 (1.1 only) that I have sitting next to me must be a figment of my deranged imagination.

Well, thats nice but...

[emtboy9]

First, heres a good link to the 20GB version:

20 Gb Dell DJ

but after reading that , I dont know. The intro price is 299 for the 20GB version, but I could pay not terribly much more for a similarly equipped iPod, AND have the bonus benefit of sexiness that is the iPod.

Actually I have been looking at these for a while to replace my lil mini-disk player, and after all that, I am still leaning to the iPod.

The Dell looks nice, but it still looks utilitarian... it just doesnt have the smooth lines of the iPod, and the jog dial too...

And yes, I will be buying an older iPod, because the new ones just dont have the smurfiness of the second gen jog dial.

Re:Well, thats nice but...

[emtboy9]

Damn, what happened to my link?? here it is again:

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productde tails.aspx/dj_20?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[satyap]

If MP3s are illegal, why do corps keep making MP3 players?

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

If MP3s are illegal, why do corps keep making MP3 players?

If braindead stupidity were a crime, you'd be serving fifty consecutive life terms.

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[FinestLittleSpace]

No, he's right. Lets ban CD burners and also obliterate just CDs in general because you can lend them to your mates. I also think harddisks sohuld be illegal, as they aid this massive problem of 'piracy'. Ahem.

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[Ours]

I don't see what illegal about listening to my own ripped CDs on my own MP3 player. Might as well make portable CD players illegal. It's called fair use buddy.

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[satyap]

I know. I'm on your side. Sigh. Online sarcasm just doesn't work. (Oh, and the AC above can go jump in a gravity well.) If the *AA had their way, it wouldn't be fair use. They want you to buy the CD, the MP3, the expanded set, the millenium edition, etc. All sold separately. Also see: Region Encoding.

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[saddino]

MP3=legal,sharing MP3=illegal

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[larry bagina]

The RIAA convinced congress to pass a law making sharing copyrighted music punishable in civil court at thousands of dollars per song.

What is the true cost of the infringement?

Well, iTunes and other services sell downloads for $0.99 each, of which the RIAA, music labels, artists, etc. get about $0.60.

Gentleman, I am reminded of the 1980s hacker cases where ATT claimed millions of dollars worth of damages when hackers accessed private tech manuals. IIRC, the court bitchslapped them when the defense attorneys revealed that they sold the same manual for $100.

This injustice cannot stand.

Re:MP3=illegal, MP3players=legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even this is not true, as many musicians encourage their fans to share their MP3s.

but the zen nx is even cheaper than the dell

[jbellis]

although slightly larger.

I might pay $300 for an ipod but I definitely wouldn't pay $260 for the dell.

Battery life time

[Dan Connor]

I think the battery life time alone will make this a big seller.

I might get it

[LeoDV]

I, for one, think it's really beautiful, and I'm one of those people who don't consider the voice recording option a gadget, but actually something very useful. The "play all our tracks" thing doesn't bother me a minute since I would never do that. It's also quite pretty looking, and a lot cheaper than the iPod. Sounds like I might get it.

Re:I might get it

[Trurl's Machine]

The "play all our tracks" thing doesn't bother me a minute since I would never do that.

Not so fast. With "shuffle" enabled it's actually quite useful. Sometimes I'm too tired to even think of what I want to listen and I want to have a button like "just bloody anything". iPod then starts to play your entire library in random order, what sometimes can lead to very nice surprises like "oh yeah, I forgot how much I dig that band". Then you begin to feel better and you can browse artists and playlists in a more conscious manner.

Of course it would be useless if it would play library in alphabetical order, from "The Aardvark Song" to "Ziggy Stardust And Spiders From Mars", but the point is that it's RANDOM.

Re:I might get it

[LeoDV]

Yeah, I know what that option is about, but I'm actually a purist when it comes to music and shuffle is a heresy to me. Albums are one work of art, and I listen to them one at a time, like the artist intended me to.

Re:I might get it

[Trurl's Machine]

Yeah, I know what that option is about, but I'm actually a purist when it comes to music and shuffle is a heresy to me. Albums are one work of art, and I listen to them one at a time, like the artist intended me to.

Apple is aware of the existence of purist consumers (Jobs being probably one of them!) and offers you two ways to shuffle - "songs" and "albums". I'm not a purist and indeed I shuffle songs. But it's only a matter of few clicks to set "shuffle" to "albums" - and the button "play me just bloody anything" will bring you a random album from your library. Obviously, beginning with Track#1, like the artist intended you to.

(artist my ass, it was probably the producer, but that doesn't matter)

Re:I might get it

[LeoDV]

That's beside the point, I was just saying that the DJ's inability to shuffle through your music directory doesn't bother me as I don't use it.

piss on music match

[yaar]

my experience with music match has been anything but positive. seems to me, half the time you go to play a track/album, MM chokes. yet i see that MM has won pc mag awards and is apparently fast becoming the standard. wts?

the dimensions on this unit are a killer from go. imo, even the ipod could be a *bit* smaller.

on the up-side, perhaps this will prod apple adjusting ipod price?

Re:Lack of apt-get for iPod/Dell DJ biggest proble

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's coming in the next version. Apparently the installer comes as 78 rpms or something.

IPod looks better and so does the Nomad Zen

[Slashdot Junky]

IPod looks better and so does the Nomad Zen!

-Slashdot Junky

Re:IPod looks better and so does the Nomad Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is scary, as the Dell DJ is really just a rebranded Zen NX.

Deactivating a PC is permanent?

[weave]

What is this bit in the fine print?

Deactivating a PC is permanent and cannot be reversed, ever. Should you decide you no longer wish to play Musicmatch Downloads on a PC because (1) You already have three PCs activated and you wish to activate an alternate PC, or (2) You no longer use a particular PC, see ?Deactivate a Musicmatch Downloads account? from within Musicmatch Jukebox Help to learn more. Remember, deactivating the account will permanently prevent that PC from playing or downloading Musicmatch tracks.

I know of quite a few people who deauthorized a Mac before doing a clean install of Panther this past weekend to be safe, then reactivating it when done.

So what do they mean by "permanent?" If someone wants to wipe and reinstall their OS, what happens?

Re:Deactivating a PC is permanent?

[Bob9113]

So what do they mean by "permanent?" If someone wants to wipe and reinstall their OS, what happens?

Assuming this is the case, and with sufficient effort it can be fixed, I'd guess this is lawyerism. If they say, "it's not possible", but it is, you won't sue. If they say, "it's possible, but it's really hard and should only be attempted by experts", and it can't be done by a Luddite with a sledgehammer, that Luddite will sue, and win.

Contracts aren't supposed to make sense. They're supposed to make jobs for contract attorneys. They depend on the fact that most of their target market won't read the contract. This is the newspeak definition of perfect information.

Re:Deactivating a PC is permanent?

[Buran]

I did not deauthorize -- it isn't necessary. ITMS authorizes off the logic board (which knows the system's serial number) so once ITMS finds out whether the number is on the authorization list, it automagically changes the menu item to say "Deauthorize Computer" where I didn't do a thing to authorize in the first place, post-clean-install, because it isn't necessary.

Dell's system is a joke. Why does everyone have to reinvent the wheel when it's already turning nicely? Crossplatform, no less.

Re:Deactivating a PC is permanent?

[RestiffBard]

Since you're already +5 informative I'll just mention how terribly good of you it is that you noticed this. as for deactivating prior to my Panther install you're right. It went without a hitch.

Re:Deactivating a PC is permanent?

[vcjim]

It does not matter, MusicMatch DRM is flawed and do not work well on any PC other than the original without asking for a password and crashing the whole system. Let's hope Napster does better. I bought $200 worth of musicmatch songs before realizing this and had to rip them all to MP3s.

Major downfall

[joel8x]

Selecting and playing songs wasn't as intuitive as I would have liked. In order to play your entire music library -- something most people do -- you need to create a playlist of all your songs on your PC. Otherwise you'll have to select songs or albums individually.

This is a real PITA to me, I listen to my iPod's complete library in random. With a DJ I would have to add every new song to a playlist in order for it to be heard. It may seem like a minor gripe, but I can't understand how something so simple was overlooked.

Re:No choice ? Try a Neuros

[adsl]

www.neurosaudio.com They are having a Sale

dunno if it is worthy ...

[DaneelGiskard]

... but it certainly is ugly

Does it work EASILY with Linux?

[harlows_monkeys]

Here's what I want from an MP3 player:

I plug it into a USB or Firewire port, and it shows up as a disk, with a filesystem that Linux can read and write.

I can copy music on to and off of the device by simply copying MP3 files (it is OK if other formats, such as those with DRM, are supported, as long as I can manage regular MP3 files with simple copying.

It uses the organization on the filesystem to determine the organization shown to the user. That is, if I want to play an album, I can simply navigate to the directory and tell it to play, and it plays all the songs in that directory (I'm willing to make sure my songs are named so that alphabetically they are in the right order).

If I can point it at playlists in a standard format, that is fine, if it is in addition supporting simple playing of all songs in a directory in order.

On my computer, I don't use any jukebox application. I simply have my MP3s organized in directories. I leave an XMMS directory browser open in my music directory, so with a double click or two, can add a whole album to my playlist. Since I've got everything organized for that, I don't need fancy jukebox or sync software...I just want to plug in, and use the usual Linux tools to make the directory on the player match my Linux music directory, and be done.

I can't tell if the Dell does this or not.

The Archos players work perfectly for this, but I'm running out of space on my 15 gig, and so am hoping Archos, or someone, will come out with a 30 gig or more that works this way, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Audio quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

From an audiophile, I would have expected a sound-off on the loss of data when converting from one lossy compression format to another.

Re:Audio quality?

[iceperson]

he never mentioned converting. He said that he archived his CD collection so what makes you think he would convert the ogg files to mp3 instead of ripping from the CD?

iPod's "greatness"

[jargoone]

Ok, yes, it's small, and it looks pretty good. But seriously, is it really worth the premium for everyone?

I have an Archos Studio 10. I admit, it's ugly as sin, and it's big and heavy. But I can't count one time I have used it while carrying it. It's always on my desk, in my car, or on a plane. The reduced size of the iPod would have been nice, but I can't say it's every been an issue. Also, while the default firmware sucks, there is an open source replacement that absolutely rocks. It's probably still not as easily usable as an iPod, but it gets the job done.

I can appreciate the iPod, but I got my Archos for $120 after rebate, and there's absolutely no way I would have paid nearly 3 times that for something that's "sexy".

Oh yeah... and by the way... the Archos Studio contains NiMH AA's. When they go dead, replace them for about $8. Can you do that with an iPod?

Re:iPod's "greatness"

[wadetemp]

Oh yeah... and by the way... the Archos Studio contains NiMH AA's. When they go dead, replace them for about $8. Can you do that with an iPod?

If the battery dies before the warranty ends I believe they'll replace it for you. That gives you a year. If it dies after that you can get replacements online from about $40-60. So no, you can't replace it for $8. Yes, you can do it.

Re:iPod's "greatness"

[foo12]

Oh yeah... and by the way... the Archos Studio contains NiMH AA's. When they go dead, replace them for about $8. Can you do that with an iPod?

How often do you replace the batteries? Every night when I get home from work, I drop my iPod in the dock and it's fully charged by morning.

Even if the iPod battery needs to be replaced yearly (not likely), my battery bill is still probably cheaper.

Re:iPod's "greatness"

[jargoone]

How often do you replace the batteries?

I haven't yet. Wasn't there a big thing with the batteries on early iPods going dead? But the point is, I can do it if I have to.

Even if the iPod battery needs to be replaced yearly (not likely), my battery bill is still probably cheaper.

I, too, plug in my Archos and it's ready by morning. I can also take along a spare set on a longer trip, and just put them in when the originals die. Can you do that?

(It just occurred to me that you maybe didn't realize that NiMH batteries are rechargable. In case you knew that, I'll leave my comments intact.)

Microphone

[Anonymous Coward]

It's got an integrated microphone. Ok, but what I really need is a line-in. I want to be able to get a good-quality voice recording of about 30 hours of lectures, and an integrated mike just ain't gonna swing it when I'm sitting in the back.

It's not like it's a huge legal liability for the manufacturer, it's an analog line. It'd make it easier to convert your old vinyl but that's about it.

I've seen a one or two that have a line-in, but a review of one complained of reliability problems...anybody have suggestions?

Oh yeah, these are wilderness classes, no AC power even remotely available.

Bundle, Bundle, Bundle...

[Chris_Stankowitz]

>What do OEMs contemplate?

Don't foeget, its one more thing they can budle with their PC sales. Much like they do with printers and cameras.

Therer are lots of people that enjoy getting all their accesories in one place. Makes them feel like they are:

A: Getting a deal

B: Can get support from one company.

same OS as iPod

[mydigitalself]

looking at the screenshots, dell appears to have licensed the same OS that apple has for the Dell DJ. apple must be a bit annoyed about that one!

Re:same OS as iPod

[weez75]

Or it could be that just like the rest of the design, Dell simply ripped off the simplicity of the iPod's OS.

Let's not underestimate the power of being the second mover in the market folks. The ability to simply copy without a great deal of R&D makes things cheap. Dell has never been a real innovative company--just one that waits until the market tells them what to build.

Re:same OS as iPod

[mydigitalself]

i doubt it. i'm quite sure i read somewhere that apple OEM some OS/software for the iPod. although i've been googling for the last 5 minutes without being able to find out from who.

Re:same OS as iPod

[gutter]

It was a company named Pixo, which has now been purchased by Sun:

http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2003-07/sunf lash.20030717.1.html

Re:footballs for closet fags

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with a broomstick up the ass, huh?

At what point...

[badasscat]

At what point do we stop calling these things "iPod wannabes" and start simple calling them MP3 players? (Or, if you want to get technical, hard drive-based MP3 players.) I mean it's been a while since hard drive based players have become popular and the iPod is far from the only one. Why do we not call IBM-compatible PC's "IBM PC wannabes"? Or portable CD players "discman wannabes"?

I just think everybody's way past the point of trying to copy Apple. Apart from being square-ish, there's very little that I can see in almost any of the current crop of drive-based players that resembles an iPod. People always complain about things like "it's not as small as iPod!", "it doesn't have the buttons on the front like iPod!", "it's not white like iPod!" Well, maybe that's because it's not an iPod and it's not trying to be an iPod! It's an MP3 player, and it's different than iPod.

Myself, the important things in one of these are price vs. size, stability, openness, and ease of use. I don't care how much like the iPod it is; in fact, the iPod has significant problems (DRM, stability issues, high price, past quality control problems) that preclude me from buying one. If it syncs fast and easily, if it doesn't skip or otherwise flake out while playing, if it plays a variety of formats without DRM and if it's cheap for the amount of space it has, then it seems like a good deal to me. I don't know if this thing fits that criteria (its use of MusicMatch for syncing seems to rule out a good interface, so that's disappointing), but I'm not measuring anything vs. the iPod. People need to use their own criteria; if you want an iPod, just buy a damn iPod.

Re:At what point...

[nelsonal]

Weren't PCs known by their longer name "IBM PC compatibles" well into the mid 1990s? I know my first system was billed as that.

Re:At what point...

[RestiffBard]

Well, maybe that's because it's not an iPod and it's not trying to be an iPod! It's an MP3 player, and it's different than iPod.

I think there is the problem with your theory. they are in fact trying to be an iPod. the iPod is the number one mp3 player on the market. Are you saying that these other fellows don't want to be number 1? They'll settle for being number 4?

Re:At what point...

[natmsincome.com]

It's generally because the players just copy what made the iPod good: 1. Large Screen 2. Similar menu system 3. Long inbuilt batteries 4. Small Before the iPod most of the Hard drive players were the size of portable CD players with little screens, often external batteries and with hard to use menus. As for PC there was about 5 years where any PC that didn't come from IMB was called a "clone" it wasn't till the Pentium came out and most of the smaller players left that non-IMB boxes stopped being called clones. I expect that while the MP3 player is still a premium item $200+ most people will get the best after all you don't want to be cheap when they are that expensive. As they drop in price they start to change.

The Problem with Many Players

[Robert Hayden]

One thing I really hate about the iPod is that it requires you to make a playlist for everything. I have a large MP3 collection all sorted into directories by Genre/Artist/AlbumName/Tracks. I just want to move up and down the directories and select a starting point to play at and just go.

Two years ago I purchased an Archos Jukebox (20GB) that does it. It has problems with lousy battery life and USB1.1 but it at least works given my directory-based layout.

Who makes a current-generation player that does this?

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[wadetemp]

Are you kidding me?

The iPod does exactly this. The only thing you might not like is that iTunes manages the directory structure for you by /Artist/Albumname/Track. You have no control over how it does this. Genre is a an indexing of that structure that is navigable as /Genre/Artist/Albumname/Track. If you had another file convention you'll have to ditch it, because iTunes won't deal with it. If you have playlists those get synced too.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[blackchiney]

Dude, have you even bothered to use an Ipod? I assume not. Right on the main screen below "playlist" is "browse". You can search by categories including artists, albums, genre, or all. Categories don't require a playlist. If you have Itunes you can use smart playlists to really chisel the selections. Example, I have a smart playlist called "Just Jay Z," guess what's in there...

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[GreenHell]

Playlist for everything? You've got to be kidding me.
Just to prove a point, let's dig out my iPod and take a look, shall we?

Starting from the root menu screen:
Browse -> Genres -> Genre Name -> Artist Name -> Album Name

Well wadda ya know, there's all the tracks for that album, and in the proper order too.

As long as you've bothered to provide your MP3s with ID3 tags then you're fine.
iTunes, XPlay, and all the other iPod software out there just read the tags and creates the iTunes DB entries using that info.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Robert Hayden]

And what if you don't have ID3 tags? You're fucked. All mu stuff is sorted by subdirectories, not by ID3 tags.

iPod is useless unless I plow through my 200GB collection and I have other life to live.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Anonymous Coward]

Then just get an iRiver device, which tosses you a raw directory structure, and quit bitching that you're too lazy to tag your songs.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[jpkunst]

You could do this with the iPod/iTunes combination if you add the correct MP3 tags for Genre etc. and make 'Smart Playlists' that update automatically. If you do it like that you don't have to worry about the actual physical locations of your MP3 files.

JP

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[vrai]

The only thing you might not like is that iTunes manages the directory structure for you by /Artist/Albumname/Track. You have no control over how it does this.

Too bloody right you have no control. My experience with the Windows version of iTunes was ...

1. Install iTunes and point it at my MP3 directory tree
2. Wait
3. Admire the nice interface and have a play
4. Think, this isn't too bad
5. ... time passes ...
6. Rip a new track and upload it to my main server
7. RSync the Windows machine, notice that it's retrieving the entire MP3 tree
8. Hit Ctrl-C and take a look and what iTunes has done to the file structure
9. Swear, delete MP3 tree, rsync it from scratch, and uninstall iTunes.

When Apple can produce a piece of software that adapts to the way I organise files, rather than expecting me to adapt to it, then I'll buy an iPod. Until then I'll just have to keep my money.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Zed2K]

Ugh...I can't stand it when one downloads some mp3's and the person that ripped them was too damn lazy to click the box to have it assign the ID3 tags. The applications do it for you and people still don't bother to do it correctly.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[twbecker]

If you would have bothered to RTF iTunes help, you would have seen that unchecking 'Keep my iTunes Folder Organized' will stop it from rearranging you directory structure and filenames.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Yo Mama]

MusicBrainz will auto-id your mp3s for you.

http://musicbrainz.org/

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Leto-II]

Try foobar2000. It's a music player but it has a built in 'mass tagger' that has an option to guess the tag info from the filename. There are many other taggers and players that have this functionality as well. Do a quick search on google. Even if you're a big lazy turd there's no good excuse not to have ID3 tags in your MP3 files.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[RalphBNumbers]

"When Apple can produce a piece of software that adapts to the way I organise files, rather than expecting me to adapt to it, then I'll buy an iPod. Until then I'll just have to keep my money.

Apple released iTunes 4.1.1 a few days after the 4.1 version you tried, and it comes with the prefrence to organize your music folder off by default. Now go buy that iPod.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Anonymous Coward]

? You're fucked. All mu stuff is sorted by subdirectories, not by ID3 tags.

You're a dumbfuck.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Dominic_Mazzoni]

One thing I really hate about the iPod is that it requires you to make a playlist for everything. I have a large MP3 collection all sorted into directories by Genre/Artist/AlbumName/Tracks. I just want to move up and down the directories and select a starting point to play at and just go.

Ummmm, I don't understand your complaint. I hardly use playlists at all on my iPod, and it does everything I want. I just picked up my iPod and navigated to:

Browse -> Genres -> Jazz -> Arturo Sandoval -> Danzon (the album)

Or if I want to listen to all of my Arturo albums, I select:

Browse -> Genres -> Jazz -> Arturo Sandoval -> All

Or all of my jazz:

Browse -> Genres -> Jazz -> All

What's wrong with that interface?

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[brightloudnoise]

This isn't a shortcoming of the iPod / iTunes, it's a shortcoming of your improperly id3 tagged music collection.

if you took the time to rip / download 200gb of music over the years, what is a few minutes per disc spent on making sure the id3 tags are correct.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[RestiffBard]

Well, if you used iTunes it would take you far less time than your whole life to put in your id3 tags. Also, if you ripped with iTunes all of that would sort out on its own. course, if you didn't rip all your sounds that would mean you stole them and then its your karma you should worry about. I don't think you did that though. Why on earth would you sort by directory in the first place though? That makes terribly little sense.

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[Stormie]

You could check out some of the approximately 5000 "mp3 categorising" programs on freshmeat. ID3 tag fixers are the single most popular project for novice programmers, I'm sure you can find one that will zing down your directory structure and construct the tags appropriately.

Not much compared toiRiver's entry

[Xeth]

The Player I've been looking at is definately the iRiver IHP-120. It's got an extremely slick chrome and black case, a wired remote, and it plays OGG files. The only thing is that it has a bit of a hefty price tag.

Opinion based on previous experience.

[CFBMoo1]

Given my recent encounters with Dell's support people. I'm not really interested in their products just because I want good support to go with them. After a three hour session where I was forwarded to a fax machine, hung up on, warned that their support service center was under attack by the latest virus and put on hold again indefinatly, and finally tossed on hold in India several times about a month ago.

I'd recomend against buying products from them. Doesn't matter how good the product is, if the support is lousy like Dell's, your going to suffer. I'm still regretting paying $2800 for a laptop that had full at home service coverage. Especially if it takes an act of God to make their support people move.

Buyer's remorse...

[Tom7]

Buyer's remorse... and a pretty case. ;)

UI.

[Xenex]

"So why get an iPod..."

The same thing Apple products have had for over twenty years - superior user interface.

Re:UI.

[10Ghz]

there's nothing wrong with iRiver's UI. So you get alot less functionality for same amount of money.

Re:UI.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the iPod UI sucks, the buttons don't work well and the battery life is poor. It also has the worst self-discharge rate I've ever seen. The first generation iPods were the best and they've gotten worse ever since. The wheel is an abomination.

Re:UI.

[Anonymous Coward]

Trust me -- Rob's discharge rate is MUCH worse

Kathleen Fent-Malda.

Re:UI.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha, so you want to use Arrow keys to get to the bottom of your 1000+mp3 collection list? Be my guest

Hefty Price??

[phlyingpenguin]

It might be hefty off of iRivers site, but the other resellers sell the device for up to $50 less than iRiver. This still isn't quite the price of an iPod and nowhere close to the DJ, but the iRiver still comes with a WHOLE lot more features than the others plus (from the tests/reports I read) has much better sound quality than any of the players available (granted, nobody knows much about the DJ yet). I'd say that's worth the ~50-100 extra dollars, especially when you're already going to dump more than 300 out on a music device.

Somebody already hurt my karma for dissing the iPod, but I'd say the iPod is pretty junky compared to everything in the iRiver. Some things aren't quite as refined, but that's also giving people a whole lot more freedom to dump files onto their player instead of use REALLY junky software like iTunes or MusicMatch.

Re:Hefty Price??

[cens0r]

I just looked up both the 20gb ipod and the iriver... and they're both $399. So the iRiver is the same price (or cheaper if you shop around) and you get more features. Plus I own a iRiver SlimX and must say it has impressed the hello out of me.

Re:The Apple Zealotry on this site is out of hand!

[yatesatron]

Go troll somewhere else. No one is saying Apple is king (ok, maybe thinking it, but not saying it), but let's face it, the iPod is the first really great mp3 player and it is the standard that all mp3 players will have to step up to in the future.

Re:You blocked my MSN

[Anonymous Coward]

that's nice, but it's nowhere near as much fun as using javascript to disable your back button, then open hundreds of pop-up windows to goatse.cx

Or, only redirect 50% of slashdot referrals, so some people will claim it's a gostse link, some will claim it's informative and interesting

Price? I don't think so...

[ZipR]

Ipod 20 gig $399 Ipod 40 gig $499 Archos Recorder 20 gig = $309 Recorder 30 = $369 Recorder 40 = $389 Recorder 60 = $439 Recorder 80 = $609 Of course it's not as sexy and only plays mp3s, but I think $100 dollar differences in price are substantial. (Prices from Apple.com and newmp3technology.com)

Don't Forget MSFT

[telstar]

Microsoft announced their plans to introduce their own device in the coming year. More devices = more competition = lower prices.

Re:Don't Forget MSFT

[Winterblink]

If you read up on that article you'll find that Microsoft isn't actually producing the hardware, merely the software. 3rd party hardware vendors will be doing the design and manufacturing.

What about the iRiver iHP-120?

[naelurec]

Since we are promoting products today, how about we talk about the iRiver iHP-120?

- Smaller than the Dell unit
- 10GB (iHP-100) and 20GB (iHP-120) models
- Same 16 hour rated battery life
- USB Hard drive interface (no MusicMatch crappiness)
- Line In/Out, Digital Optical In/Out
- High end recording features (direct to WAV, MP3)
- Integrated FM Tuner
- Supports MP3, WMA, ASF, WAV and OGG music files
- Cross platform compatibiltiy (anything that can see a USB hard drive will work with the unit)
- 3rd Party *nix development
- $399 MSRP ... currently selling for ~$350

I dunno.. seems like this would be the unit Slashdot would be ga-ga over.. not the Dell unit.

I am not associated with iRiver in anyway ... Just been researching to find a small (iPod size) unit that interfaces as a USB hard drive and has high end recording features (record my band for practices and during live performances) -- so far, this unit seems to be the best there is.

Re:What about the iRiver iHP-120?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, it is the best portable audio player available nowadays. By the way, AAC support is coming soon through a firmware upgrade.

Re:What about the iRiver iHP-120?

[onemorehour]

I agree. Seems to be the best thing... too bad NOBODY HAS IT IN STOCK! aaaarrrggg...

Even the tagline is a ripoff

[Anonymous Coward]

From the DJ product page on the Dell store:

"Download. Rip. Go."

If Apple Legal keeps to form, this may change to

"Ripoff. Get sued. Settle."

Re:Lokkit the Apple fanboys go!

[Anonymous Coward]

Backlit keyboards are kinda pointless, especially when 99%-100% of the time you work with a light on.

80 gig hard drive that is SLOW (4200 rpm) and CHEAP.

Firewire 800 is not used yet

Gigabit ethernet is not useful either.

You must like to pay for useless features, just so you can say you have them in case anybody ever starts using them. haha.

crappy battery life.

I swear. The pre-conceived notion that because its an Apple, it's better is the stupidest thing I can imagine. Nearly all laptops come from the same places, including Apple. Yeah, you really think different, pal. Nice going, but you've learned nothing--save how to pay Apple thousands of $$$ more than you should.

Read this

Absolutely iTunes

[JayDiggity]

So I just bought a Creative Nomad Zen Xtra (what a long time!) from the store a couple of days ago, and you know something? I returned it. I'm a PC user and a fairly faithful one at that, but I love iTunes. For me, it's entirely in the rating system. I can create a playlist that has only songs that I rate highly, and it's amazing.
Too bad I can't sync those playlists to my Nomad. I have to use their crappy software, which I hated. Apple releasing iTunes for Windows is "first hit's free" mentality - you get a taste of how good to iPod software is, and suddenly you have to have an iPod. It's awful. And I'm buying one.
Unless Dell's bundled software is as good as iTunes (and it's MusicMatch, which means it can't be anywhere near as good), then I won't even think twice about it.

Re:Absolutely iTunes

[Zed2K]

I don't understand the whole rating thing. I mean if you don't like the song why do you keep it around on your hard drive? You would think that every song on the HD that someone has is rated the highest.

Re:Absolutely iTunes

[RatBastard]

Well, let's say you are listening to an album (CD for you youngsters) and the music on the album flows together. A concept album, if you will. There might be songs on that album that go well with the rest of the music, but don't really work out on their own. You might rate one of those songs a "two". Other songs on the album really kick ass and you like to listen to them at any time. So...

You create a smart playlist that plays only songs with better than three stars with appropriate genre and year settings. When you select this playlist your player bounces around playing the songs that meet your criteria.

Okay, now you want to listen to that particular almbum from start to finish. You select that album from the browser and your player playes every song from beginning to end. Even the ones that don't make since as stand-alone songs or that you only really like in conext with the rest of the album.

See? Flexibility without having to setup 50,000 different playlists with different sets of links to teh same bloody files.

Re:Absolutely iTunes

[cens0r]

You should have tried using notmad explorer from redchair software. It's one of the best pieces of software I've ever used, and lets you use your nomad like god intended.

Re:Absolutely iTunes

[2nd Post!]

Probably because, with how cheap hard drive space is, it's easier to keep everything rather than deleting the songs you don't like.

This is the mentality of someone who rips CDs to hard drives, btw, not downloading music online.

It's easier to rate the songs you do like than to delete the songs you don't like. If you download your songs, it's trivial to delete the song if you don't like it, as it was just downloaded. Vs on iTunes, where you just hit skip if you don't like it.

K.. check this out

[bigjnsa500]

I am getting really tired of the Mac zealots out there. "Mac rules!" "iPods rock!" The simple fact is that your stuck with proprietary hardware and you paid 3 times the price. The only thing you rule at is you took it without vaseline.

Re:K.. check this out

[cosmo7]

Dude, you're the first person to mention Macs in this whole thread. And what's all this about vaseline? Is there something you're trying to tell us?

Re:K.. check this out

[Anonymous Coward]

The simple fact is that your stuck with proprietary hardware and you paid 3 times the price.

Uh, for players with the same capacity, Dell charges $299 vs. Apple's $399. 399 / 299 = 3? Where did you learn arithmetic?

Re:K.. check this out

[RatBastard]

Vaseline? Why on God's green earth wiould you use Vaseline? It will give you the shits like mad! KY, Astrolube, or any other water based lube is what you need.

Maybe if you tried one of those you wouldn't be so damned grumpy.

Apple releases iPod

[nitehorse]

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

Is there still a pause between tracks?

[Deslock]

Looks cool, but I'd still get iPod instead. However, all MP3 players I know of have a serious flaw:

There is a pause between tracks during playback (while the next song is loaded into memory). When I'm listening to the new Rush live album on CD, I can close my eyes and imagine being at the show. When I listen to MP3s, there is an annoyingly abrupt pause every ~6 minutes. Crossfading doesn't solve the problem.

Does this new player finally get rid of the pause?

Re:Is there still a pause between tracks?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no pause on my ipod. I think the latest software update fixed it.

Re:Is there still a pause between tracks?

[TCaM]

If I was ripping a live album and this bothered me that much I would just rip the entire thing into a single mp3 or vorbis file instead of breaking it up. Of course then skipping to a particular track becomes a pita.

Oh well..

Re:Is there still a pause between tracks?

[Anonymous Coward]

My PJB100 does gapless playback - and this was the first hard drive MP3 player on the market. This is something that other players still have yet to get right! If the iPod were updated to support gapless play, I would by one this very second. (After all, the iPod is actually less expensive than what I paid for the PJB, and the iPod got high marks from Stereophile - not just in a subjective way, the audio circuitry measured extremely well when they hooked it up to the AudioPrecision.)

Re:Price? I don't think so...

[Golias]

I didn't say it was the cheapest on the market, just not the most expensive, which I think you will agree is almost completely unexplored territory as far as Apple is concerned.

If the Archos had the iPod's feature set, in particular iSync support, I would consider it a very good buy... and even as it is, I wouldn't hesitate to reccomend it to my friendly neighborhood Linux zealot. For the features I listed in the earlier post however, I still see the iPod as the best choice for most of us.

Yes, there's "nothing wrong".

[Xenex]

I never said there was anything wrong with the iRiver UI. However, the iPod UI is better.

Some people will always look at price before quality.

Re:Yes, there's "nothing wrong".

[10Ghz]

I never said there was anything wrong with the iRiver UI. However, the iPod UI is better.

How do you know? Like I said, iriver has an excellent UI. To quite one review: "The interface is exemplary and the transfers are drag and drop. If you need help with it, then you really need help."

Your line of thinking seems to be "iPod is made by Apple so it MUST have superior UI!". And even if iPod has marginally better UI, would it make up the lack of features? I don't think so.

Re:Yes, there's "nothing wrong".

[Ryan Amos]

I know you think you're a smart shopper, but also consider this: which company is gonna be around in 5 years? Some company with 'i' in their name? Or the company that started the whole damn iEverything craze in the first place? 5 years from now, is the iRiver going to have working drivers? Or is it going to fall into the abyss of neglect like so many other products of the same ilk? Your line of thinking is "It's cheaper and the numbers say they're the same so it's gotta be better!" Not to mention the iPod has that "Oh wow those things are super cool. I'm a hot chick, will you have sex with me?" factor. You and your stupid iRiver will be jerking in the corner while me and my iPod are tapping some of dat azz.

Re:Yes, there's "nothing wrong".

[MrBlint]

USB based mass storage devices don't need any special drivers. Anyway 5 years from now your iPod will be gathering dust in a draw along with all other 5 year old hard disk based media players. Instead you will be listening to uncompressed audio on your fag packet sized terabyte media player.

If you think that owning an iPod will enhance your sex life then you are mad.

When oh when will they make an Ogg player?

[StringBlade]

So far every piece of consumer audio hardware using a compressed medium is MP3 (at least that get any publicity). Why do we keep sticking with MP3 when each encoder/decoder requires patent royalties to be paid and the total file size of the encoded song is larger than it has to be?

There are some very cool Ogg Vorbis software players available for Windows and some less-cool ones for Linux and Mac.

I think Vorbis has shown that it is an efficient, royalty-free codec worthy of more mainstream attention (read: hardware players) and there are plenty of converters to change over your existing collection of MP3s to a smaller (file size) collection of Vorbis without a noticable loss of quality.

Blows my mind.

Re:When oh when will they make an Ogg player?

[Zed2K]

I'd say never. For one thing the name is horrible. It may be meaningless to geeks but to the general population naming is everything. No one even knows how to pronounce it. Just because it sounds better doesn't necessarily mean it IS better.

Appleturns

[mr100percent]

As the Apple Turns spoke about it a while back. "Imagine the class action suit when people's thumbs start to fall off"

"Overall, you can't look at this thing and not think 'iPod.' Or, more accurately, 'iPod after a twenty-minute beatdown with the Ugly Stick.'"

Mod parent UP - Re:It's an MP3 player ...

[cvd6262]

Mod parent UP

RTFA. The iPod would be great for my needs were it not for the lack of built-in voice recording. While the Dell offering falls short on some point, its lower price and its built-in recording make it more usable in my life than the iPod.

The recorder is an extra for small notes.

[momus_radar]

I think the recorder features of any portable device (that's not a dedicated recorder) is more for short notes like "buy the new Black Rebel Motorcycle Club CD" or "Great Jones Diner is at the corner of Great Jones & Lafayette."

Do you really think a cheesy recording on your mp3 player will save your ass better than the email thread showing ponity-haired's initial requests/demands? Or that a student who doesn't take notes to begin with would listen to them later on their player full of songs?

Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[burgburgburg]

And looking at the final design of this thing, I can see why. How you say ...yechh. Even ignoring the iPod, this thing is just fugly. Damn.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[RevAaron]

But even so, it is hard to ignore the bar that the iPod set. It certainly doesn't look like it topped the iPod in any area but price- which is enough for most Americans, who are used to low quality. Not that the Dell DJ is neccesarily low quality, but there's a good chance of it considering the price.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[yomegaman]

I don't think you'd have to cut too many (if any) corners to undercut Apple's prices. Paying extra for quality makes sense, paying extra for status is stupid, but it's often difficult to figure out where that line is.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[RevAaron]

In the case of the iPod, they're not making the (percieved) huge profits, as they are with some of their other products. Buying just the HD that goes in the iPod can cost more than buying an iPod and yanking it out. Mind you, in both cases, we're dealing with retail prices- I'm sure Apple gets a swell discount in buying in bulk, but that's normal.

Dell's unit manages to be cheaper, at least in part, because the HD is bigger and cheaper.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[smaug195]

It uses a 1.8" Hitachi drive, Apple uses a 1.8" Toshiba drive... There are lots of players out there now that use 1.8" Drives.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[afidel]

No, Dell is using the same 1.8" unit as Apple AND they are selling their players for ~$100 less than the same capacity Apple player which means Apple is making somewhere in the neighborhood of $60-80 more per player (I will give them some of the increase in cost as increase in materials and build quality). Dell hopes to make their money by selling more of these that Apple does iPod's and by having all those units purchasing songs through the branded store.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[Anonymous Coward]

" And looking at the final design of this thing, I can see why. How you say ...yechh. Even ignoring the iPod, this thing is just fugly. Damn."

Another Apple sucker paying too much because Apple made him think their product was better.

Re:Dell didn't even have pictures up until today

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem awfully sure about that $60-80 markup. Are you sure Dell isn't succumbing to loss-leader mentality with their new player?

They certainly have done it for other products from time to time, and for an introduction, they certainly could sell it at break-even for cost-of-goods (as in, they sell it for the price of the components, but they eat the cost of building the unit, distributing, marketing etc).

God knows Michael Dell is rabidly anti-Apple enough to do it out of pure spite, with the concept of really breaking even in 6 months when costs go down due to economies of scale, etc.

Of course, if you have access to the actual accounting numbers, then I'll bow to your superior knowledge. But if you did, you wouldn't be foolish enough to post them on Slashdot anyway ("Yes, Mr. Dell, I know I just kissed my job goodbye."), so you're just pulling those numbers out of your ass.

Re:Lokkit the Apple fanboys go!

[presearch]

Yeah know, when you put it that way, it makes sense.
I'm gettin' me a PC, loadin' it up with Windows, and living the rest of my life in pure cumputing satisfaction.
Thanks for pointing all of this out. Where can I get one of these wonderfull machines?

Dell doing the Apple

[0x0d0a]

It looks like Dell's taking an Apple-like approach, selling a hardware player, 99c songs in their online store, and software with too bloody much eye candy.

All the folks that said "finally, Apple got the right idea" can rejoice -- the meme is spreading. Computer manufacturers have caught on To What People Want.

Even more enjoyably, for the first time that I know of, a storage medium that was *not* endorsed by the MPAA/RIAA has caught on -- hard drives with MP3/OGG/WMA. No design provisions to avoid copying. Just pure what-people-want. It was bound to happen -- with CDs being digital, once ripping systems became popular, people were no longer bound by the medium, as they always had been in the past. Music can flawlessly be moved from medium to medium, and it was only a while until the monopoly shattered.

Re:Dell doing the Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

WMA has been endorsed by the RIAA. Just because Microsoft sucks at implementing it's DRM doesn't mean it's not there.

I haven't seen anything as far as what files Dell's online store comes in. They seem to use MP3 and "Digital Music" interchangeably in all their press releases, which isn't too surprising given marketing flunkies usually have less technical ability than the average end user. Which is bad.

If they let you download DRM'd WMAs, then you're at least as screwed as Apple's service, if not moreso because Microsoft's DRM system can be really draconian. Yes, you can get around the DRM, but then you're breaking the DMCA, and we all know how much the RIAA loves that abberation.

Just use Vorbis

[StringBlade]

Ogg is simply the audio-related media compression project name. Agreed that it does sound funny and I can see people being turned off by it (sort of gutteral and grunt-like), but Vorbis is the codec in question that is competeing with MP3, WMA, and RA(M) codecs.

I think Vorbis is a much smoother word than Ogg and more accurately reflects the portion of the Ogg project. It is unfortunate that the files have the .ogg extension instead of .vor or something else. But the fact remains, Vorbis is less offensive than Ogg.

In my personal opinion, I think Vorbis is a velvety word that drips off the tongue like drool from an audiophiles enjoying the high quality of the codec even at low sampling rates. ;-)

iTunes, what iTunes?

[vida]

Everybody mentions iTunes support as a reason for the iPod's popularity.

Please remember that for a considerable part of the iPod userbase this wasn't available until a couple of weeks ago. So while it is great, it's not the reason for its popularity (at least for what? 1/3, 2/5?)

The last time I check in a businessweek article I think, the iPod had sold almost 1M units and was expected to sell 300k shortly after been released for windows. (more than what entire line of macs had been sold)

BTW, does anybody knows exactly what % of iPod users are windows users? I tried to google this (didn't put a lot of effort into it thou) but came up unlucky.

-Facun

Re:iTunes, what iTunes?

[stsuida]

At the Apple music event Steve Jobs said about half of all iPod buyers were windows users. BUt they can't track it anymore because they ship a dual platform edition now. So, I can't even feel as smug when iSee an iPod anymore, for all I know they have a Dell.

Lol try again

[antin]

Superior UI? Have you seen any app Apple has released for Windows in like, *ever*? They preach about standards and then go completely their own way - hell their Windows apps wouldn't even look standard on a Mac so that doesn't count.

Re the iPod, once again - lovely UI choices... lets see... oh plug it on a new computer and have it format itself - that is a sure fire winner.

I am not sure what point you were trying to make as you didn't actually state what the great UI choices the iPod made were. The iPod design is generally more evolutionary than revolutionary - I own an Intel Pocket Concert and I can tell you the iPod looks pretty damn similar... same shape, some position for the play etc... buttons, same position for the LCD. Similar interface for moving through songs, oh and a scroll wheel that clicks... (cept the Intel puts it on the side not the front).

I don't want to sound like a troll, but I don't understand why everyone slavers over the iPod. It is nice, it is small, and it looks kinda neat - but it wasn't anything new, and it isn't the standout product. Creative had harddrive players before apple, and the iPod design as I already mentioned is derivative. Now that nearly every mp3 player looks like an iPod but is cheaper, and more feature packed, the iPod is nothing special.

Re:Lol try again

[nat5an]

Re the iPod, once again - lovely UI choices... lets see... oh plug it on a new computer and have it format itself - that is a sure fire winner.

It's not been my experience that this happens at all. I'll dump some files on my iPod and use it as a portable hard drive to copy files onto some other computer. I've never even been given the option to reformat my iPod when I plug it into another computer. This may have been a problem with earlier firmware versions, but I've never seen it. Perhaps what you're referring to is the fact that each iPod "belongs" to only one computer, which is the one that syncs its mp3s with the iPod. In order to "give" the iPod to another computer, it needs to be reformatted. It's a minor DRM feature, and one easily avoided by simply backing up your music, and copying it back over after you reassign the iPod.

Re:Lol try again

[antin]

No on the PC when you plug it into another computer it brings up a message box saying "Readying iPod for use" by which it means "Formatting all your files". It is really just a misleading message, but I call that bad UI and my brother lost a lot of files to it (he had used it to back up some of his files before reformatting his computer).

Re:Price? I don't think so...

[ZipR]

I agree. The Archos units require a bit more ingenuity on the user's part to get the most out of them. They do have digital output, easily replacable batteries, and great open source software, which the Ipod does not. I wouldn't recommend them to a casual listener, though.

As friendly as their website?

[b-baggins]

Sheesh. If this thing is only half as hard to use as Dell's website, it's a waste of money.

IT WORKS WITH LINUX

[Ars-Fartsica]

My iPod is the first HD-based player to reliably work with linux.

makes $300 cell phones better...to customers

[0x0d0a]

The deal is that somebody that just dropped $300 or $400 on a device is unlikely to criticize it. It's the same phenomenon on game consoles (the dollar amounts are lower, but so is income for teens) that leads to "fanboyism".

The iPod was just about the first player that a lot of people would consider. It was well-built, small, had plenty of storage space, a good interface (AFAI can tell, the iPod team is where all the *good* HCI people at Apple fled when OS X came out), and software that *didn't* have an awful custom-bitmapped interface. As a result, a lot of people picked one up. Now, the subconscious thought of "I blew all that money on an iPod, and I'll argue against anyone insinuating that buying an iPod might no longer be worth it" starts affecting people. Same thing happens to Porsche owners, or owners of other luxury goods. As a result, the iPod gets a disproportionate amount of praise.

Re:makes $300 cell phones better...to customers

[Jord]

But you also have the other side of the coin. A large group of people who cannot afford an iPod or refuse to purchase on who start knocking it just to justify their own purchase of a cheaper unit that is not as well made or has a poor interface.

Seems like the universe balances itself out quite nicely.

Shame on the mods

[antin]

My brother owns an iPod and I can tell you he isn't that fussed about it - it has issues, but I notice most of them are mentioned here already... shame is they aren't modded up. Nor are any posts that suggest the iPod is not the be all and end all.

On the other hand every post saying that the Dell model will suck and that the iPod is soooooooooooooo superior has been modded up.

I don't mind you guys having your own opinions or anything, but perhaps be a little less biased in your modding? Ugh I see this happen in so many threads I suppose it isn't worth bothering to point it out... in fact I have basically learnt the rough topics that have awful modding and I generally stay clear of the comments (anything with apple is fanbased; anything with microsoft is hate based; etc...).

Re:Shame on the mods

[cens0r]

And of course you were modded down.

Not Worthy

[Kurt Wall]

No, it isn't worthy, IMHO, and, yes, it is JAP (Just Another Player) falling short of iPod's greatness.

Needs to support .ogg format

[Phloyd]

Until someone can come up with a player that supports .ogg files, I won't be buying.

Think about a "thinkpad" mp3 player!

[liberteus]

I own an IBM T40 Thinkpad and I just wish IBM produced consumer oriented devices.
An IBM Pad Player would look bulky, but it'd feel rock solid in hand, lightweight, cold and clean. And of course, just like my T40, it'd be black alloy on a side with a "IBM Player" tag, and the other side black plastic, like the one they use on Thinkpads.

Damn it's so bad IBM doesnt make one of these devices.

Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting how attitudes change over time.

Actually, he could have.

[Anonymous Coward]

Michael Jackson outbid him based on inside information he gained through his friendship with Mcartney.

Re:Actually, he could have.

[Anonymous Coward]

Michael Jackson only owns 50%. He sold 50% to sony to pay off his pedophile habit. Since then, he has put his 50% up as eecured collateral for loans that he can't pay off.

Michael Jackson: An ugly white woman.

The UI of the iPod itself.

[Xenex]

That's a nice piece of writing you've got there, however you forgot to touch on the iPod's user interface.

You know, the thing on the screen that the wheel interacts with...

I guess all I can say is "Lol try again".

Wow

[autopr0n]

That submitter wasn't biased or anything. Holy fuck.

It's not just Dell...

[Anonymous Coward]

HP, Gateway, Apple - everyone has twigged that consumer services are pretty much the way to go.

I'd argue that Sony first set this off in the 1980's - build consumer trust around a brand name. PC's are a good introduction to a brand. Buy a Dell and have hassle free computing and good support and services, and the chances are you'll go back for your WiFi base station, your laptop, MP3 receiver and media jukebox. Apple played more of a second fiddle to Sony, who you could argue took the whole service issue to the extreme buy making video recorders and DVD players, and selling movies - for PCs the analogy is pretty much the same.

Incidentally, Dell used to be known as Dell Computer. In the last month or so they filed with the SEC to remove the 'Computer' part. Now they're just Dell Inc. I guess that says it all about their intentions.

Re:ID3 Tags

[gilgamesh2001]

No you're not.

Import your songs into iTunes. Then use the built-in functionality to access the music database online.

If you have your stuff organized by albums, iTunes will find the artists, albums, etc. etc.

Bought an Iriver for 329$

[liberteus]

at J&R New York City: Iriver 10gb 329$+tax, Ipod 10gb: 299+tax.

Consider that Iriver has remote, case, FM, mp3 recording, hard-drive w/out drivers, the price difference is null.

True, Ipod looks sexier, but Iriver is just more bang for the bug.

Re:Bought an Iriver for 329$

[RevAaron]

Doesn't seem like all that much bang to me.

Again, the iPod comes with a remote, case and mp3 recording as well. The iPod is also a HD without drivers. The only thing you get get for that $30-100 is an FM radio, of little to no value to a lot of us, who haven't listened to the crappy commercial radio available most places for a long time. There are better college stations around here as well, but why listen to the radio (esp if there are lots of annoying ads) when you can listen to your own tunes?

Re:Bought an Iriver for 329$

[jasonbw]

hold up, thats completely incorrect. the 10 gig ipod does NOT come with a remote, case or mp3 recording. For $50 you can get WAV recording via an add-on microphone module.

if you can find an apple store with 15 gig ipods still in stock, you can get one for $329 (i think) under an educational discount (you need a student id or other proof of enrollment to a college), which do come with a remote and case.

Re:Bought an Iriver for 329$

[RevAaron]

OK, then why not pay $329 - the same price or cheaper than the 10 GB iRivir- and get all of that stuff, including 5 GB more HD space?

Enter Dell: Bye Bye profit margins

[RoshanCat]

Dell entering a market is huge irrespective of the quality of the product they sell. When Dell enters the market all their competitors can kiss their fat margins goodbye. Sure people will pay a premium for quality products but they wont pay anything more than 15-20%.
Now Apple has to significantly reduce their prices. No matter how good their product is (most of them care just for the hard drive anyway, which is a commodity)
Expect price drops in all mp3 players

Re:Enter Dell: Bye Bye profit margins

[lp_bugman]

Not quite. Apple has managed to sell PC at higer prices than Dell for quite some time.
Apple sells differently it sells class, design, status, quality and functionability!

That is the only reason why Apple is still around and are gone

Re:Enter Dell: Bye Bye profit margins

[li99sh79]

Dell entering a market is huge irrespective of the quality of the product they sell. When Dell enters the market all their competitors can kiss their fat margins goodbye. Sure people will pay a premium for quality products but they wont pay anything more than 15-20%.
Now Apple has to significantly reduce their prices. No matter how good their product is (most of them care just for the hard drive anyway, which is a commodity)
Expect price drops in all mp3 players

b'uh? There have always been lower-cost HD-based alternatives to the iPod. Nomad3, Zen, Archos etc, and those all came out either at the same time or before the iPod. Hasn't affected the pricepoint apple's set for their units
This new Dell unit looks to be a smidge better than most of the USB2 players, but I don't think it'll cut too heavily into iPod sales.
-sam

Why are you Running in Jeans?

[m_niessner]

and I often carry it in the pocket of my jeans. This not only makes it nice for jogging, but

That is sick. I bet even Steve wears shorts when he runs.

Check out the Rio Karma.

[Gondola]

The Rio Karma is on my Christmas list this year.

Check it out here.

It's tiny; 2.7" by 3" by 1". It's got USB 2.0 and *ethernet*. The unfortunate thing is, the ethernet connectivity requires proprietary software, it's not just an SMB server on ethernet, and it's not a mass storage device with USB. However, there is a Java version of the software, and it runs on just about any platform that can run Java.

Battery life is fifteen hours, about double the iPod's.

It comes with a DOCK so you don't have to plug in power, usb, whatever, every time you go home. It's got a rechargable battery, and you just put it in the dock to charge and connect to your LAN/PC. The dock has RCA out, ethernet, and USB.

MSRP is $399, but you should be able to get better deals online, and there's a $20 rebate right now.

Re:Check out the Rio Karma.

[cens0r]

I agree... i think this or the iRiver players are much better deals than the iPod. they do everything the iPod can do (except work with iTMS) and more.

iPods still too expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

The competition has the same feature set, but as Apple normally does, the iPod is till significantly more expensive. I have a Nomad and have used it as a portable hard drive and an MP3/WMA player and it also has Firewire as well as USB 2.0.

Re:Lokkit the Apple fanboys go!

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely true. Sager kicks ass, IBM kicks ass (and my ThinkPad makes me feel like Darth Vader using it), and my dad's Dell widescreen kicks ass. And they all run Linux out of the box (Winmodems excluded, but we all use highspeed - and the PowerBooks have software modems too). I don't trust anything I read on Slashdot anymore; it's become a real hype pit. Really sales oriented, always hyping everything Apple. Step back and look at it. The only things that get modded up are Apple sales pitches. Even Linux doesn't have as many zealots as the Mac. It's crazy. Slashdot's gone in the toilet. And the editors don't seem to care, they're all on the take too, now that they're part of struggling and dying VA Software. They need all the corporate sponsoship they can get, I guess. Microsoft ads in heavy rotation, lots and lots of Apple pimping... they've sunk pretty far. I'm guessing VA's in talks to be acquired by Apple. Another nail in Open Source's coffin. Sold out by Taco. Sad. It just proves how important the ethics and philosophy of FLOSS really are. Without them, you're defenseless.

Re:Lokkit the Apple fanboys go!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm glad you asked! You can simply click

Link to non-Apple product removed at request of Apple Legal Department

"only Win & Mac" != cross-platform??

[danaris]

Since when did something have to support more than 2 platforms to be considered cross-platform? Does your personal definition of "cross-platform" mean "supports every platform out there," or just "supports my particular flavour of Linux/BSD/whatever"? Because neither of these is what the rest of the world thinks, or even reasonable.

If you are running Linux/BSD/whatever, have you tried iTunes under WINE? (I haven't; I have a Mac, and don't know if it works--it's just a suggestion) You might want to try it. And until you do and it doesn't work, don't complain: Windows is a reasonable market for Apple to try to penetrate. Linux isn't; it's far too small, and most of the people in it are mindless zealots, like you.

And you're in profound disagreement with a large chunk of the world on aesthetics, there. Millions of people have iPods. I, and everyone I've talked to, loves the iPod's look. And Apple is generally considered to have the best (read: prettiest, most aesthetically pleasing) designs out there. *shrug* De gustibus non est disputandum.

Dan Aris

Re:"only Win & Mac" != cross-platform??

[jo_ham]

Indeed, if Apple tried to break into the Linux market with the iTMS (which would mean releasing quicktime with AAC support for Linux), people would just complain that they'd never buy any music unless it was either uncompressed, available in Ogg or have Britney come round to their house and perform the track personally every time...

much like people do now in fact!

Re:"only Win & Mac" != cross-platform??

[gotr00t]

Have you ever even used an iPod? just because of the fact that Apple does not officially support more than mac and windows does not mean that you simply CANNOT use it on Linux/BSD, or whatever OS that you use. I can tell you from being an iPod user that it works PERFECTLY with Linux, and it does not involve iTunes at all.

iTunes is simply an application that manages music and makes it easy to transfer music to the iPod, but it DOES NOT serve as the software that interfaces with the iPod and lets you access the hard disk. Using the SBP2 module in Linux lets you use the iPod like any other firewire disk drive, and there are tons of third party apps out there that let you sync your iPod with Linux (GNUpod... etc).

The iPod follows many standards, and therefore it works with more than just win+mac, but any platform that supports USB/Firewire disk drives. If your OS does not support either Firewire SBP2 or USB, then the problem lies within your OS, and not Apple making the iPod "not cross platform."

Like every other

[Cyberllama]

This would be an ipod killer. It has battery life that would make ipod users drool -- 14 hours if theres alot of hard drive access. However one reviewer tested his out of the box and got 20+ hours on the first charge.

It's cheaper than the ipod, it's got all the functions that the 3rd generation ipod has and it's got controls which, while perhaps a bit short of the ipod, are still excellent.

In other words, it's everything ipod is plus a bit more and it's cheaper. Unfortunately for Dell, they cluelessly cripppled it with some Bad DRM. Plus this bad boy directly into your system as a USB hard drive and transfer your mp3 files to it and then watch in confusion as it completely refuses to play them. All songs have to be transfered via music match to the player before it will play them -- a setup similar to the one that the RCA lyra has used in the past.

It's really sad too, becuase before Dell cluelessly added DRM to this player, it was definately an ipod killer in every respect.

On a slighty off-topic side note. Let's talk about why there haven't been any ipod killers yet. I know this will be unpopular, but the reason no has put out a better player is because Apple has been using anti-competetive practices -- the kind of stuff we'd boo Microsoft for if they were the ones doing it.

How you ask? Simple. They've monopolized access to 1.8 inch hard drives. The other manufactureres of mp3 players aren't still using 2.5 inch drives because they're idiots and think consumers want a big clunky mp3 player, but because they simply can't get thier hands on anything else.

Until just recently, the only company making 1.8 drives was Toshiba -- and Apple had a strangle hold on their supply. They bought pretty much all of them.

Well, finally we have a second company making them, hitach (which is what the dell player uses)so now other companies can *finally* start to make players which are the same size and form factor as the ipod.

So to say that MP3 hardware manufacturers just don't "get it" is unfair. They haven't even had a chance to compete with the ipod until now. Hopefully now that the playing ground is a bit more leveled we'll finally start to see some real competition for the ipod.

P.S. Way to go slashdot! My post is ninety-five percent text, but you refuse to post it until I use "fewer 'junk' characters". Wow, it's a sad day when proper punctuation sets off the lameness filter.

Re:Like every other

[stripes]

How you ask? Simple. They've monopolized access to 1.8 inch hard drives. The other manufactureres of mp3 players aren't still using 2.5 inch drives because they're idiots and think consumers want a big clunky mp3 player, but because they simply can't get thier hands on anything else.

The question is how did they monopolize access to the 1.8 inch drives? If they merely told Toshiba "we'll buy as many as you can make at $X per" and nobody else wanted to pay that much (or more), then that ain't the least bit unfair.

If they did it by ending up being the only one that jumped when Toshiba said "we can make 1.8 inch drives, but it looks like nobody will buy them, so we aren't gonna quite finish figuring it out unless someone will commit to buying X of them" (and X being a number that hasn't been reached) then that ain't unfair either.

If they did it by standing up when Toshiba said "we can make 1.8 inch drives, who wants them?" and saying "we'll buy them for $X each, but you have to sell only to us for 3 years" then that is unfair on Apple's part and stupid on Toshiba's (note the diffrence between the last case and this one is mostly just that Toshiba is assumed to have the product ready to market here, and in the last case it was "we don't see the market to finish the R&D, find us a market and we'll reward your leap of faith with exclusave access" vs. "we have this product, so let's ignore an open market and just sell to Apple")

If they did it by telling Toshiba "sell to dell and we'll go elsewhere" then yeah, that would be unfair (and Toshiba beign the only maker of the drives would have to have been stupid to beleve them).

The thing is, how did they really get the strangle hold on the things? Somehow I susspect it is really that they were the only ones willing to pay what Toshiba wanted for them.

Re:Like every other

[Cyberllama]

Apple simply bought them all. IT would be akin to to you or I going to every supermarket in town and buying all the ice cream to keep others from enjoying it. Whether or not some exclusive deal as involved -- I don't know, but I doubt it.

Other companies might want them, but after apple gets it's share, there simply isn't enough left over to base any sort of product line on them.

This is not a problem with the iPod...

[ErnstKompressor]

IIRC, before last week, the iPod came with musicmatch software for PCs. The iPod's music database was organizable without iTunes, so I don't see how that would affect your existing organization...or am I missing something?

What DRM issue?

[SuperKendall]

I was not aware MP3's had "DRM" issues. The iPod can play any number of unprotected MP3's. Even unprotected AAC's in fact, which is another open format, similar to WMA only not as annoying.

Quality control problems?

Stability issues?

I have a old (now really old) 5MB iPod. I would wish that everything else on the planet had the same stability and quality control issues the iPod does!

I think you ended up rationalizing yourself out of the best MP3 player on the planet, for no benefit whatsoever!

30 Gigs for $250

[erik umenhofer]

The Nomad Zen NX can be had for 250 bucks and holds 30 GIGs. This is suck a better deal for the geeks out there.

With the iPod you have multiple pleasing choices.

[SuperKendall]

First of all, you can just hit play at the top level and it just goes off and plays everything. You can of course have it randomize either by song or by album.

But if you want only a selected set of songs, you can browse by artist or genre or album.

It was not always true, but iPod now has about the most complete browsing ability around. The randomize by track feature was something I requested after I got my iPod a few years back, and I was thrilled to see it included via update (though I'm sure I'm not the only one who asked for that).

Slashdot.org = Applefanboys.org

[craenor]

Why don't you just change the name now?

Dell isn't selling this as an IPOD clone, but rather a competing product. It doesn't have the ipod features it has it's own features.

Hmm...USB 2.0 makes it a lot easier for me to use than 1394, I only have one computer with 1394, I have 4 with USB 2.0.

15-16 hour battery life is fantastic

Most importantly though, it can play .mp3 format, which can be uploaded from your own music collection on your computer and doesn't require some proprietary format that I have to convert all my files too.

Is it the perfect player? No, I'm sure over the next two years we'll see a lot of changes as this, PDA's and Digital Phones are all combined into one device (no reason to have 3). But for now, it's a competing device with attractive features.

Now that I've had my say, you can mod me down for flamebait since I didn't bow at the Altar which is Apple...

Re:Slashdot.org = Applefanboys.org

[foo12]

Hmm...USB 2.0 makes it a lot easier for me to use than 1394, I only have one computer with 1394, I have 4 with USB 2.0.

iPod Dock Connector to FireWire and USB 2.0 Cable (Windows PC only)

better yet and cheaper

[nitz7978]

www.archos.com enough said

I was so impressed by a "preview" I saw a week ago

[callipygian-showsyst]

I was so impressed by a "preview" I saw a week ago, that I sold my iPod on ebay (for $200 total after I unbundled the unopened earbud and remote and sold them separately)!

I was disappointed with the iPod because:

• It would konk out on a cross-pacific trip
• People would think I was some sort of Mac freak and ask me questions
• It had no record capability
• Windows was an afterthought. (And iTunes windows is pretty poor)

Dell tells me my "dPod" will be here by Monday, just in time for my next overseas trip. Whoo-pee!

To sum up all the posts:

[Anonymous Coward]

It sucks, the iPOD is much better.

We will link to the crappy and overpriced competitors products to prove our point that ours is not only better but cheaper.

Let me write paragraphs of text about how much better my life is because of the iPOD.

There are no other portable mp3 players, there is only the iPOD brought to us by our almighty God Steve Jobs.

See several posts with just a cut and paste of the iPODs features and how much better they are compaired to XYZ. Even if XYZ is better in some respect, either don't mention it or dismiss it.

All posts about the competition being better or disagreeing with the iPOD are modded down.

See lots of posts from people who probably are getting off to what they are writting about.

WFCAIPODs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who fucking cares about iPODs?

I say they are an over priced and over hyped pieces of crap.

Re:WFCAIPODs.

[Anonymous Coward]

I say they are an over priced and over hyped pieces of crap. ...because you're too poor to afford one. Maybe your minimum wage job can allow for a Muvo.

I don't own an ipod

[jbellis]

but it's the one I would buy if I had $300 to drop on a player to replace my rio 500.

design counts in consumer electronics. sony proved this years ago...

Read the article

[spideyct]

"A customized version of Musicmatch 8.1 comes bundled with the hard-drive player. (The Dell DJ also works with Windows Media Player 9 and RealOne Player.)"

Do I get points for just re-printing part of the article linked from the story submission?

craenor = misinformation

[kelzer]

Most importantly though, it can play .mp3 format, which can be uploaded from your own music collection on your computer and doesn't require some proprietary format that I have to convert all my files too.

Um, the iPod supports .mp3 files, it even supports .wav files, so I guess your most important issue is a non-issue.

Now that I've had my say, you can mod me down for flamebait since I didn't bow at the Altar which is Apple...

Maybe if you did a little research before making completely false claims, you wouldn't get modded down so much?

AVOID MusicMatch et al like THE PLAGUE

[zeno_lee]

Sorry, for the all-caps. You should avoid hardware that ships with this software. I too have had the same experience as others with MusicMatch and iPod. MusicMatch used to be bundled with the iPod. Other than the fact that the UI is crappy and unintuitive, it could not transfer songs to my iPod. I had to download ephPod as a temporary solution until iTunes for Windows came out. MusicMatch is the perfect example of a company that somehow survives despite its flagship product being such a big piece of turd.

Bah - It's not an iPod....

[greymond]

The only thing I see Dell and Phillips having in common with the iPod is that they took the same features and designs as all the previous MP3 players on the market that were $150 for 20gigs (Nomad) and raised the price tag to $300 so morons would go hay thats expensive it must be really good.

Personally I've played with the Nomad and the iPod and didn't like either. I don't like the interfaces and would rather just use my zaurus for 60min of music while running on the treadmill at the gym.

No 1394?

[Aero Leviathan]

Why oh why has everyone stopped making portable mp3 players with IEEE-1394/FireWire/i.Link? My only computer here (a laptop) is rather new, but it only has USB1.1 and 1394. As long as I have the 1394 port I'm not going to suffer slow USB1.1 transfer speeds.

And I know the iPod has it, but it's out of my price range... I have looked for a while and not found a single other alternative. Has anyone else?

Re:No 1394?

[OSeXy]

Not sure what your budget is, but you can get a referbished 10GB iPod from Apple for S229.00 iPod 10GB (Mac & Windows) Dock not included This package contains the following items: (1) iPod for w/rechargeable lithium battery (with new dock connection) (1) Headphones (earbud-style) (1) Apple iPod Power Adapter (1) Apple FireWire Cable (2m) (1) Manual: iPod Getting Started (1) CD-ROM Disc w/iTunes and electronic documentation (1) One Year Warranty limited $229.00

Re:No 1394?

[nutshell42]

Get a rio karma - it has an ethernet port

Well, no shit, Sparky!

[RatBastard]

Paying for good music is a great idea as it keeps great music coming. It's paying for shit that is stupid and detrimental.

Think you for stating the obvious. But the problem here is this: what you consider good, I might consider to be garbage. I loathe rap, hiphop, country (with the exception of Johnny Cash and a very few others), disco, bubblegum pop, thrash, death metal and that awful Pat Boone/Osmonds white-washed bland middle America crap. Does that make all of those forms of music crap and the artists that make it talentless?

No. It simply means that I don't like it. I'm sure that there are many people here that like music that I don't and I'm willing to bet money that I like music that other people here do not.

So, how do we decide which is the wrong artist and which isn't?

Dell DJ photo

[Anonymous Coward]

it's on the techtv link now - it looks pretty utilitarian. the ipod is infinitely cooler

Yes, this needs to be recognized

[default luser]

All those 128k AAC tracks from the Apple Store are VBR ENCODED with a target average bitrate of 128k.

VBR is part of the original mp3 spec. The only reason CBR became popular was because back in 1997/98, the processing power required for VBR wasn't there, and good free VBR encoders didn't exist.

If you encode an mp3 in VBR with a target bitrate of 128k, it will sound MUCH BETTER than a 128k CBR mp3 ( quality somewhere between 160k and 192k CBR ) because the encoder will use 160k and 192k frames for many of the more complicated portions of the song.

On top of this, I don't understand why Apple cannot relese tracks that have been optimally encoded, rather then average bitrate encoded. The 128k AAC is not nearly enough to reproduce accurately every song on the planet, and it may actually be a waste for some music. When you consider that a lame --alt-preset only uses as much storage space as required to meet a TARGET QUALITY LEVEL, not a target file size, then you wonder why Apple doesn't offer such an elegant optimization with their AACs. Is the encoder just not capable of this?

Finally, yes AAC uses less space than a comparable-quality CBR mp3, but when you compare to a VBR mp3, the gap closes significantly. I wish people would educate themselves before so readily bashing mp3, just because they downloaded some crappy 128k CBR rips off of Kazaa, or they stupidly ripped all their albums in 192k CBR. I personally find it impressive that mp3 is still capable of competing despite being a decade or so old, but it cannot supplement ignorance.

Re:Yes, this needs to be recognized

[Mryll]

Good comments.

What do you think is a good "minimal" CBR for a segment of complicated music? I guess I find 256k to be about minimal for the most trying segments of music. I guess VBR 192k should capture almost as much as CBR 256k unless the track has no "less trying" segments.

I haven't listened to any 128k AAC tracks, or any AAC tracks at all. If 128k AAC is comparable to, say, 192k CBR, then the "standard" format for iTunes falls just a little shy of what I would like. It will be interesting to see if qualities improve through time, or if they're intentionally kept at a level distinguishable from CD out of copyright violation fears.

Re:Yes, this needs to be recognized

[pod]

VBR is part of the original mp3 spec. The only reason CBR became popular was because back in 1997/98, the processing power required for VBR wasn't there, and good free VBR encoders didn't exist.

VBR is not part of any spec per se. MP3 streams have a bitrate field in every frame header, so by definiton they are VBR.

The reason we've been stuck with CBR so long is not because of CPU power (each MP3 frame is the same as any other). It's because it was easier to encode from algorithmic point of view. Perceptual codecs have advanced far enough that you can get a good sounding VBR file.

Xing popularized VBR, and added its own header/tag to help with playback a little. These days we also have ABR (ave bit rate), which really needs two passes to do a good job of allocating the bits.

Re:craenor = misinformation

[craenor]

I should have actually been more clear. It's my understanding that iTunes only supports their proprietary mpeg-4 codec (AAC?).

While musicmatch allows mp3 and .wmv downloads.

DELL = Poor Quality, Slow Support, Branded Junk

[PetoskeyGuy]

I don't have one of these devices, and I would recommend to anyone out there not to buy anything from Dell. Their tech support takes forever to get through to someone and they always seem to be from India.

I have a Dell Axim and it's been nothing but pain trying to get it working with PocketPC 2003. All other manufacturers had their handhelds working with PPC2003 the day it was released. Now 2 months later, Dell STILL doesn't have a working upgrade available. They tried releasing it and ended up recalling it because of very poor performance. Dell Engineers (if they have any) suck.

Dell Laptop had the similar problems. They make shit and replace it for free if you have a support agreement.

Not my decision to use Dell, the Company buys them. Another annoying thing is that they have different prices for Home, Government, Business and Education and you can not view products on their website until you decide which category you fall into.

I consider this informative, even if it may sound like a flame. I know some people have had no problems with their Dell products. My point is when you do it wastes lots of time or costs more money.

Re:Price? I don't think so...

[spectecjr]

Nomad Zen NX 30Gb... $299

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3765176

Better picture

[prostoalex]

Print-quality high-res pic of the new player

Needs to be asked 100000 times

[t0ny]

Does it play Ogg?

Re:Needs to be asked 100000 times

[nomel]

iRiver iHP-120 does. so does Rio Karma.

Nomad Zen NX Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Can be found here:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/437/437957p1.html

Looks pretty cool.

The overflow from the crappy helps the good

[sdcharle]

Most artists don't make money, it's like with investing, venture capitalists fund a lot of losers hoping to find a few big winners in the bunch.

A really sucky (but high-selling) artist like Britney Spears brings in money that keeps the record company in business so they can put out the latest (worthy artist) release.

So, the profoundly sucky (musically) but successful (financially) artists have their place.

Of course, Indie labels and independent music distribution help cut out the middlemen, both the record labels and the sucky artists that keep them alive. But the reality is there's not going to be an overnight power-to-the-people shift.

Re:The overflow from the crappy helps the good

[larry bagina]

Think of the millions of dollars that Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Mariah Carey were given the last time they re-signed their contracts. Then look at the shit they've put out since that djs won't play for cash.

The RIAA and record companies are a bunch of back-room good old boys, out of touch with reality. Any accountant could have told them that trying to sustain over-the-hill has beens wasn't a wise investment.

Re:The overflow from the crappy helps the good

[buck_wild]

So it sounds like the message is "Keep things the way they are." At least, until you read the rest of the thread.

Re:The overflow from the crappy helps the good

[sdcharle]

Naw, I quit working for the record company a few years ago, and buy all my stuff from iTunes or an independent record store. Down with 'the man'!

Anyone else notice this little copyright snafu ?

[Razor Blades are Not]

So on the main philips Portable Audio page, I see a little photo of a girl reclining on a bed with a Philips MP3 player in her hand...

It's the exact same shot from the DELL animation, but with the dell DJ overlayed with the philips player. You can tell its Philips who did the "appropriating" here, because the girls fingers are blurred out in their shot, and not in the Dell one.

For Shame Philips !

Vorbis hardware players that exist *right* *now*

[Z-MaxX]

From the current and rapidly expanding Vorbis Hardware list: Consumer products that support Vorbis natively:

• Neuros Digital Audio Computer
• Rio Karma 20 (Picture)
• PhatNoise's PhatBox, Kenwood's Music Keg (Powered by PhatNoise) These are in-car players that are installed into the trunk of your car and hooked up to your car stereo. Both players run ARM-Linux and support playback of FLAC files. Beta firmware to support Ogg Vorbis is available at http://phatbox.sixpak.org/phatbox/ogg.phtml.
• KISS Technology's DP-450 and DP-500 DVD Players
• MPST Digital Jukebox
• Freemax FW-960
• iRiver iHP-120, iHP-100, iGP-100, possibly others
• Umax/Yamada have a few standalone DVD players that support Vorbis.
• Neuston provides a standalone DVD player (model DVX-1201) that supports Vorbis.
• Samsung The MCD-CM600 is now available in Korea. It is a CD portable that can play Vorbis, MP3, and WMA. Page with photo of MCD-CM600. Closeup of MCD-CM600.

CNet review

[blixel]

CNet has a review for this proudct.

"The good: Extremely intuitive operation; robust design; long battery life; clean sound; on-the-fly playlist creation; voice recording; in-line remote.
The bad: Battery not replaceable; no display on the remote; no FM tuner or line-in recording; albums don't play in order."

Re:craenor = misinformation

[rjung2k]

I should have actually been more clear. It's my understanding that iTunes only supports their proprietary mpeg-4 codec (AAC?).

And you're still wrong.

Putz!

I need answers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough with the iPod is better thread OK... How about some real info?

1) Can I use this as an external hard drive under Linux via the USB interface?

2) Can I move my music files to/from the device without any bullshit?

3) Does the device have any DRM built-in?

4) In otherwords, if I don't want to screw around with the MusicMatch thing, and just want to dump a bunch of songs from my Linux server to it, can I do that? If I want to move them off somewhere, can I do that?

5) CAn I simply move my voice recordings to/from the device?

I could give two shits less about what it looks like, so long as it works and doesn't cause me to have to engage in any workarounds...

Re:craenor = misinformation

[GreenHell]

OK, here we go:

If you mean that the iTunes software only supports AAC, then you're wrong. It supports wav, MP3, AAC, and probably a few others.

If you mean iTunes music store only supports AAC, then you're right.
On the flip side, the Dell store only supplies files in the proprietary WMA format.

Checking on the licensing FAQ for MPEG4-AAC, it would appear that fees are charged for sales of encoders/decoders. No word in there on what happens with freely available ones.

As for the DRM being proprietary, well, what did you expect? Do you really think the RIAA is going to allow someone to distrubte digital copies of their product without making sure there's strict controls on who can use them and how they can do so?

The WMA files you get from the Dell DJ music store are going to have DRM in them too, and you better believe that it's going to be proprietary.

You don't need iTunes to use an iPod, do you?

[porkchop_d_clown]

So, what's your beef?

Re:Lokkit the Apple fanboys go!

[Anonymous Coward]

No offense... but you seem to have justified your lack of an Apple product with... "I don't cares" or "It doesn't matter". Why are people so happy when they use Apple products? Why will I never use a Windows product again. It is basically quality. True, whenever benchmarks show a product in a favorable light, it will be used. But the details of my compting experience is what I care about.

Marketing hype, maybe. But the products are what they are. My powerbook hasn't let me down yet and my IBM Thinkpad is collecting dust.

Quality. most definitely. Even my box that my powerbook came in was quality. It is the fine details that you missed.

But... it all comes down to preference. If you are happy on Windows... stay there, but keep in mind that a Windows user just uses Windows, A mac user loves Mac so much that they try to spread the love.

Use Mac or Windows, Python or Perl, Audi or Ford... its all preference. Just don't let your judgement be clouded by Microsoft Propaganda. Try Apple before you dis it.

Excellent list, but doesn't address the main issue

[StringBlade]

The problem is not that they don't exist as much as they don't get any real publicity.

You ask Jane Streetwise what an MP3 is, she'll most likely be able to tell you basically what it is and probably has even used it or owns an iPod. However, ask her what (Ogg) Vorbis is and you'll most likley get a confused look, blank stare, or straight-out "don't know" response.

I'm really very happy that there are Vorbis players, but myself and 1/3 to 1/2 the /. crowd buying one isn't going to keep any of these devices in production for very long ('cause seriously..how many hardware MP3/Ogg players does one need?). Mainstream exposure is where the the future needs to lie for any of these in order for them to survive.

What the hell?

[pr0ntab]

Apple the most recognized/relevant brand?
Bullshit. It's Puffy, and we all know it.

So when are the Sean Combs Ghetto-pokeblasters cummin out?

except for the portion Apple used

[Anonymous Coward]

Which was purchased by Apple before Sun bought Pixo.

What you call the OS of the iPod is not available to other licensees any more.

The Dell thing is just a clone.

Not only that...

[pr0ntab]

it also boasts USB mass storage support (at USB 2.0, whee!).

So it's a OGG capable, long battery lifed, removable hard drive with multimedia playback.

And it's a bitching black/blue design. I think Dell should just forget about it.

Did you check 'organize library'?

[2nd Post!]

Because iTunes default behavior is to *not* touch your file structure unless you explicitly tell it to organize your library.

I just bought a Zen NX...

[Leomania]

So of course it figures a new contender would come out. But all it took was one look at the $300 price tag (after rebate!) for the 20GB model to know I wouldn't be loooking any farther, no matter what. As another poster stated, for $300 I'd be buying an iPod. What drew me to the Nomad Zen NX was the price ($229 at Fry's for the 20GB model) and the reviews. There was a good article on "Ask Slashdot" that talked about the iPod vs. the Zen and I found that informative too. The controls on the Zen leave something to be desired, but it works and that's what really matters to me in the end. The awesome Notmad software from RedChair Software is very nice. It's not as necessary now that the Zen software has integration with Windows Explorer, but it's more fun to use. I've always disliked Creative's "over the top" applications; they're bloated and ugly.

This Dell unit would need to blow the doors off of the iPod to even be a contender... and that's not going to happen with MusicMatch as the front end (for me, anyway). Same reason the iPod wasn't a contender until they came out with iTunes for Windows; I really don't like MusicMatch software at all.

- Leo

Re:I just bought a Zen NX...

[buck_wild]

Does the Zen have a propriatary format for MP3s? Can I use it to transfer data files as well?

I ask these questions because I bought my wife a Sony Mini-disc player and it can't do anything other than play Sony-converted MP3 files.

Re:I just bought a Zen NX...

[Leomania]

It's not a proprietary format. You can use it to xfer data files as well.

The old software for the non-NX model didn't have Windows Explorer integration, but now it does.

Enjoy,

- Leo

Precompile

[AllenChristopher]

'Cause God knows the first thing you want when you have 5000 files on your hard drive is for your iPod to scan them all to make sure there's nothing new, every time you start it up. Then it should import their tag information, sort them into the lists... Or worse, check every time you use the menus. It's a music player, you want it to start up and play music.

Sometimes you have to pre-compile a list to make something work well. That requires software. If you had some retching, frothing allergy to using iTunes just to transfer the files, whatever you use for playing them, you could use EphPod, either on Windows or Linux.

If run Mac OS X and absolutely refuse to use iTunes to transfer the mp3s, whatever you're using to play them, you'd probably better send that Mac to me. It's probably not really your kind of thing.

iPod at the Apple Store currently $269

[Golias]

It's now even cheaper.

Re:Price? I don't think so...

[Golias]

By the way, if you take a look at the Apple store right now, you will find that Apple has closed the price gap with Archos a little bit. It still costs more, but for iSync alone, it's definately worth it to me. I'm seriously considering selling my 10G iPod to a friend and moving up to a bigger one soon.

Use Smartlists

[meehawl]

I have a large MP3 collection all sorted into directories by Genre/Artist/AlbumName/Tracks. I just want to move up and down the directories and select a starting point to play at and just go.

No doubt many Pod People have posted responses, lauding the iPod's ID3 tag approach to playback. It is a nice touch. Unfortunately, like many Apple design constraints, it's a Henry Ford "any colour as long as it's black" all-or-nothing approach that makes you buy into their way of doing things or not at all.

But you can get the same functionality with the Archos (or any other directory-based player) and using J River's Media Center. MC9 offers Smartlists, which allow you to create on-the-fly playlists that aggregate songs accordig to logical parameters (based on ID3 tags or playlist membership). Just create a bunch of playlists and dump them in a playlist directory. Then pick and mix.

iTunes does a kind of Smartlisting as well but the iTunes implementation of Smartlists is rather limited.

MJ has had the "make a playlist out of query parameters" feature for years, but takes it further: you can define custom fields in the database and search on them (though to be fair, iTunes already includes the things I used those custom fields for.) More importantly, its notion of (non-dynamic) playlists is much more flexible -- you can use a song's presence on a static playlist as a query parameter for a smartlist. I've come to think of playlists as a way of attaching attributes to songs. It's a much more flexible, nuanced way to represent things like genre, where multiple values can easily apply to a song.

You can then dump those generated playlists to the audio player and select a mood- or place-based playlist according to your whim.

And as regardes battery life, the first thing you should do is load Rockbox, if you have not already done so.

The next thing (a bit more tricky) is to replace the old, degraded, low-capacity NiMH AA batteries with some modern 2300 mAh ones. You will double or triple your battery life immediately for a cost of around $5. This site shows you how to modify an Archos safely.

A third option is to expand the Archos from 2MB to 8MB -- this lets the RAM cache more data and reduce the energy required to spin the hard drive.

DJ Hacks

[bios10h]

DJHacks: "News, Info, and... yes, Hacks for the Dell DJ (Digital Jukebox) MP3/WMP Player. Because we knew someone was eventually going to ask "Can it run Linux?""

Re:You blocked my MSN

[Anonymous Coward]

i find your views interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

iPod Needs 3rd Party Add Ons!

[meehawl]

The 3rd party market sets the iPod apart from the rest; these features simply aren't available on other MP3 players.

It's my perception that the reason the iPod has these outrageously expensive add-ons (such as crummy Microphones, incredibly slow flash readers, and crappy FM tuners and transmitters) is because the iPod itself ships with such limited hardware.

Many other audio players have this stuff built in. Some at the same price point as the iPod even do video recording and playback. Have you seen what iRiver and RCA offer in the same price bracket?

Another thing I can't understand is the explosion in "skins" for the iPod. If this little hwite look is so damn perfect, why are so many people paying big money for some really ugly bras for their iPods?

Doesn't wannabe as expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

"Dell's 15 and 20GB DJ adds to the growing field of iPod wannabes"

The lowest cost iPod is $300 with a 10G drive. You can get a 20G Dell model for the same price.

Dell changed their company name.

[DigiShaman]

Quoted. " Mr. Dell, chairman of the board and chief executive officer, reinforced in remarks at the company's annual meeting of shareholders here this morning that the competitive advantages of Dell's customer-focused, direct way of doing business are enabling it to expand and deepen its customer relationships. "We've always done business differently from other companies," said Mr. Dell. "That allows us to better understand the needs of and create superior value for customers, and consistently produce leading operating results for investors and others who hold stakes in Dell." He said the applicability of Dell's direct model and opportunities for the company are vast. While the company's United States business remains exceptionally strong, growth in other markets is also rapid. Product shipments last quarter were up 40 percent in Asia-Pacific and Japan, and 29 percent in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Operating income in both regions nearly doubled, to record levels. In the enterprise, Dell's first-quarter server shipments rose 40 percent, more than four times the average of other suppliers, and the company accounted for almost one-third of U.S. server volume. External-storage revenue was up 65 percent. "Customers are increasingly using clusters of standard servers in place of mainframe computers that rely on costly proprietary technology," Mr. Dell said. "Standards-based systems are now the better choice for most computing applications, and the trend to such powerful and reliable technology favors our company." Dell's large and growing influence in the enterprise explains the company's name change, a management proposal approved by shareholders in proxy voting. Mr. Dell said the company's formal name is "catching up" with its evolution from supplying strictly computer hardware to providing a diverse range of technology products and services. In other matters, shareholders voted to return three directors-Michael A. Miles, Alex J. Mandl and Morton L. Topfer-to the Dell board. They also approved two other management proposals: that all directors stand for re-election annually, and for a tax-deductible, performance-based executive compensation plan."

Re:Dell changed their company name.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the enterprise, Dell's first-quarter server shipments rose 40 percent

This was an abberation. Seriously. This past quarter they offered a Buy-2-get-1-free server offer. No matter how large the server.

Buying a couple $50,000 servers? Get another one of equal or lesser value free. I know of Fortune500 companies that replaced literally hundreds of servers because of this promo. They were buying servers anyway, they just got some free ones tossed in that - in some cases - were used to retire older hardware. As many as possible were used to come in under budget of course, but that's not always possible.

This is why they're talking about shipments.

As for the name change, I had to do some digging on their site to find it. It's down at the bottom for 2003. In other words, their name is now "Dell, Inc." instead of "Dell Computer Corporation".

Boy, that's gotta help their marketing flunkies come up with even more synergistic buzzword crap.

Re:Lack of apt-get for iPod/Dell DJ biggest proble

[damiam]

Yes.

"What you get for 99 cents"

[ElGanzoLoco]

They've ripped off the Music store and the iPod up to the terms and conditions: -99 cents a song, 9.99 USD for an album (same as iTunes) -Burn a playlist to CD up to five times , DRM-free (iTunes: 10, but you can delete your playlist and do it again) -3 authorised PC's (same as iTunes) -30-second samples of all the music in the store -250 000 tracks from all five majors + independents (moreless same as iTunes in the beginning), "500 000 by the end of the year" (which is what iTunes has now) -US residents only So, what remains in favor of iTunes? -AAC (dell uses shitty WMA ...) -automatic network sharing through rendezvous (hmmm sweeet) -PC and Mac -iPod :) (though the Dell DJ doesn't look bad) -iTunes (Jukebox is SHITTY) But I think what will really, really separate the winner from the loser will be the number / quality of songs available at the stores... One concern though: admitting I buy songs at both stores, I have to maintain two separate libraries, one through iTunes, the other through the Jukebox... Duh. Just like if I stored my CD's bought at Virgin Megastore in one room, and my CD's bought at my local disc retailer in another room, with no way to mix both libraries. That sucks, hard. (well there's that blurb on dell's website: "Because Musicmatch Downloads is based on the Windows Media standard, songs can be played on all software players that support secure WMA." So maybe iTunes could read those songs.... oh but wait, apple doesn't do DRM)

lOl!

[Scrameustache]

1970s Volvo-like boxiness...

Lol!

You made me spit on screen, you insensitive clod! : )

Re:iPod greatness!? Yes, Dream-like greatness.

[Scrameustache]

but what is great about only 8 hours battery life

It last an entire shift? It has yet to run out on me when I remember to plug it in once in a while?

(and that much only when playing disgusting sounding 128Kb MP3s)

You can play any quality mp3s you want, AND you can play CD-quality 128AACs. AAC != MP3. Lower bitrate for equal quality. the 128 AACs are of equal quality to 192 MP3s, you uninformed oaf.

without the option of taking a spare?

Oh look: A spare!

How good are controls so sensitive it's way too easy to make the player do things you don't want?

Man, talk about trolling! "Oh no! The controlls are sensitive!" Jeez!

And did I mention soundquality is not oustanding, but just OK?

Repeat your little lie all you want, but audiphiles disagree.

I am a very satisfied owner of a Creative Jukebox Zen NX 30GB.

Wich you either bought because you didn't research the product correctly, or because you're a cheap bastard who needs to troll slashdot by bad-mouthing the better product to compensate for feelings of inadequaties.

Nice thing about Ipod bootable & 3rd party ap

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the fact that the IPOD is bootable. I just upgraded Panther but I cloned by powerbook to my ipod just in case. The Ipod is a bootable drive so I can run other OSes -- E.G. Darwin, Linux.
Another nice thing is that it doesn't need some
silly file manager app to move files. I copy 8 gig ISO DVD files and play my backup DVD movies with no problem. Because of this, our dept will buy IPODS for emergenncy restore discs. We will have OS X and classic 9 bootable with us at anytime.. A justifieable IT expense!

Secondly, I like the fact there are lots of 3rd party apps. I even wrote one myself that extract mp3s from the hidden file directories. There is a great one called ANAPOD that allows you use your ipod as a streaming mp3 server. It streams mp3s to any web client. Great app and worth $15.

Along the same lines, I like how you can play music right off the IPOD from the computer without copying mp3s back-n-forth. It shows up on itunes as a playlist and you can just lug around your mp3s to any machine. It is a lifesaver, my personal file server crash and all my music was on my ipod..

Re:iPod greatness!? Yes, Dream-like greatness.

[daBass]

Wow, you have a chip on your shoulder, don't you? I never said the iPod is a _bad_ player, just that it is no longer by default better than any competitors. Both have their merrits.

As for the audiophile aricle you refer to, they haven't tested any other players there, have they? So how can you state other players aren't equal or better? (did I mention they were playing 16/44.1 AIFFs, and not any compressed files?)

Speaking of "uninformed oaf", baterry life does go down when using higher bitrates. (which is what I was refering to, RTFA) I had an MP3 life before a portable and I am not going to re-encode my entire library in a non-standard format that some people say to be just as good. (a claim I heard many times but never actualy delivered, mind me playing safe?)

Seriously, have you ever held, listened to and used a Creative Zen NX? I _have_ tested both and decided they were a close match. For my use (I travel a lot) the longer battery life, smart volume (great for noisy planes and trains, or offices) and considerably lower price simply won out. I haven't fully tested the audio quality of the iPod (nor the Zen before I bought it, but several reviewers who knew their stuff described it as better than the iPod, so I took my chances), but the Zen sounds better than any portable I ever owned, which includes expensive CD players and MiniDisc, so I don't see the iPod being capable of much more, if any more at all.

So maybe you should rethink the troll comment you made. If you feel so secure about your iPod, why the rant in the first place? I could make the same comment about you as you did as me...

One word...

[Anonymous Coward]

Faggott !