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So now even Pigdog DeCSS is a circumvention device. I've seen everything.

Well, I am happy to leave it up to everyone's personal consideration whether GNU and FSF are Socialism. In the US, Socialism and Communism have a such morbid echo to them (like Terrorism has today), that people eagerly go to great lengths to deny any connection to these ideologies whatsoever. Obviously any free and open public debate on these central tenets of the 20th century political discourse is still nearly impossible in the US, which is a terrible loss for the political discussion climate when observed from the outside.

But no matter how you look at it, the copyleft/ShareAlike properties of GPL are in effect creating a insulated, parallel ecosystem ideologically opposed to the traditional profit-driven software market, that plays on its own terms and is very much akin to the core ideal of Socialism - the lack of ownership.

Also, Linus Torvalds, the head developer of the Linux kernel, is the son of a well-known Finnish hardline Stalinist and Communist party frontman Nils Torvalds. Not to say that his son Linus necessarily shares the believes of his hardline Stalinist (=Genocidist) father, but there is no question that Linus has been influenced by his father's hardline Communist enthusiasm in his childhood. Just saying ;)

skids sneered:

Somehow I don't think the Republican Primary this year is a "major political event" to anyone but the pundits.

Wrong. It's very likely to determine who wins the Presidency - and control of the Legislature, as well.

That's not a kick; that's just DeCSS.

Ever heard of the other DeCSS?

The Cascading Style Sheet remover

> Yes spying and everything is wrong. But with the NSA having more power than ever and needing to acquire/sift through more and more information all the time, wouldn't it be a very cool place to work.

Dude, are you SERIOUS?! That's like a physics student saying, "Yes, killing and everything is wrong. But with the defense industry having more power than ever and needing to develop/upgrade more and more weapons all the time, wouldn't it be a very cool job to have?"

To me that's the ethical equivalent of selling your soul to the Devil. You may reap material rewards for the time being, but at the cost of permanently subverting your humanity. Some nuclear physicists who worked in military research realized this later in their careers, and developed a form of "executioner's guilt" -- one such scientist admitted to being unable to get any decent sleep because he kept dreaming of hearing a million screams coming from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Here's something more for you to chew on:

http://www.pigdog.org/auto/software_jihad/link/258 1.html

That diatribe was aimed at the programmers who cooked up the Sony DRM software. So how much more outrage is warranted for *a tech who actively develops the tools to arm Big Brother*?

Dude, I use the IBM Model M Space Saver keyboard, and it's totally awesome. It's just like a regular Model M high-durability buckling-spring keyboard, except minus the numeric keypad. Here's a page with a picture comparing the Space Saver to a full M and a Happy Hacking. This other page depicts the more typical beige Model M Space Saver, albeit retrofitted for Dvorak. BitchKapoor, over and out!

Style is everything at one of these burns. Appearances count. Any idiot can pick up a tiki torch at a Home Depot and wave it around like a deranged circus clown; it takes talent and panache in abundance to dig a five-foot-wide hole in the ground, dump in an engine block from a scrapped VW bug and set it on fire, then exhort onlookers -- with bullhorns -- to "Look away from the fire; it is many times brighter than the sun, and it will destroy your eyes." Yes, kids, burning magnesium is fun, but the consequences are dire: magnesium burns at 1,200 degrees Fahrenheit and reacts explosively with certain salt nitrates. Good thing, then, that our fellows at Burning Man protected onlookers from the burning block by partially burying it in an alkali lakebed.

Shamelessly stolen from Pigdog.

... it's not socialist or Communist because those have to do with centralized ownership of things. We're not talking about centralized anything. It's about individual freedom.

[From "Pigdog interviews Richard Stallman"]

Which was what happened, an example can be found here, along with the authors explanation for creating the application in the first place.

You mean like this Cascading Style Sheets tool?

body {color:black;}
a:hover {color:red;}
DeCSS

RMS probably has some good abused but working hardware stories. No longer, but at least as of a couple of years ago, this was RMS' laptop.

RMS probably has some good abused but working hardware stories. No longer, but at least as of a couple of years ago, this was RMS' laptop.

His answer:

I mean, if you look at the kind of signals that we're currently using, sort of spread-spectrum signals and things like that, they're very complicated, and they're completely unlike the kind of things we look for in SETI. The kind of things we look for in SETI are signals that are just what are called narrow-band signals, that are on one spot on the radio dial. So they take all the energy of the transmitter and pump it all into one small frequency range. Okay? You with me?

Siduri: Yeah.

Seth: All right. The advantage of that is that it makes it really easy to find the signal because all the energy is in a small band so it really stands out as a big spike of energy. Whereas if you spread it out over five megahertz, like a TV signal, then the energy's spread all over the band and it's very hard to find. But on the other hand, the actual signals that we use are spread out, more and more. And ET will be at least as advanced as we are, so you might say, "Well, why would they make those narrow-band signals?"

And the answer is, probably: most of the time, they don't. For their own internal communications they probably wouldn't do that. But if you have a beacon, which you want to hear at great distance--if for some reason they want to get in touch, or they're sending the galactic weather report, whatever, GPSs--there's lots of things that would have narrow-band components in the signal. So that's what we look for. But Zach has a point.

Siduri: So the assumption is that they would have to be kind of trying to get in touch.

Seth: They might have to be trying. Or, I'm not sure I would even go that far. If you asked Marconi a hundred years ago, what would he think the radio signals would be like in the year 2001, or whaddya think people will be using this technology for in the year 2001, he wouldn't have had a very good idea. He probably wouldn't have gotten it right--not much of it, anyway. So for us to say what kind of signals ET uses, a hundred thousand years ahead of us, what kind of signals he's producing--you could guess if you want. Probably not a very good guess.

I mean, one thing you always need is high-powered radar to look for incoming comets. Long period comets. Cause they can come in, and as you know, ruin your whole day. Land in Yucatan. But I mean, he has a point. It's just that we're looking for the signals that are easy to find.

There's just something magical about the Model M. It doesn't have a windows/meta key... but that is what capslock is for! Just remap it to be the windows key and TA DA. Capslock-R for Run! and so on..

I much prefer this to the windows key between control and alt anyway.. its too easy to hit in games and too much of a pain to disable every time you run a game. Capslock is just the right spot for it. :)

Because many geologic eras/epochs/etc are usually named for type localities. In this case, the type locality for the Ediacaran is the Ediacara Hills.

According to Wikipedia, the Cambria is the Roman name of Wales, where rocks of Cambrian age exist and were studied.

But then again, I could be completely wrong since all languages have their nuances. Take for example "Canada/Canadians" ;)

(Note, I really do love my Canadian friends. It is just a funny page. :)

Well, a price hike sucks. But stepping back to look at the big picture, I have to say that we are in the middle of a huge step in the right direction. As Apple continues its pursuit of Playfair, I'm sure everyone has noticed a subtle paradigm shift not just in the tone of people here on Slashdot but in the technical community at large.

When the MPAA sued 2600 for linking to some source code, a lot of technical people got very upset. How could source code be banned? It's free speech, isn't it? While many flavors of speech (from fire in a crowded theater to bomb-making instructions) have been illegal for years, this was the first time that dangerous technical speech was being regulated. And for many, this meant the onset of Chicken Little histrionics.

But the digital crowbar that spawned a million T-shirts only hurt the movie industry. Technical people were slow to empathize with the enrichment of Scientologists like Tom Cruise. And the "tyranny of the majority" was definitely hampering the effectiveness of the DMCA, halting the prosection of reverse engineers like Skylarov and spreading decryption software like DeCSS across the globe.

With the advent of PlayFair, however, the shoe is now on the other foot. Geeks are walking a mile in Rosen's shoes, and they are not happy. For the first time, the technical community has something to lose because an encryption scheme is under attack: iTunes may be going away, with geeks standing to lose everything from TMBG to Devo to Whitney Houston (all for 99c+ a song!) just because some software developer decided to piss in the public pool.

And the paradigm shift is now very evident. In place of Slashdot stories decrying the "MPAA witchhunt", we now have highly moderated comments in support of Apple for taking the fight to their attackers using the DMCA. And why not? After all it is much easier to understand the Israeli use of helicopter assassination after you've lived through your first bombing at a West Bank disco.

I think that this paradigm shift represents a crucial "turning of the majority" in favor of accepting the DMCA. Once groups like EFF get on board I think the final stone will be in place for Microsoft to release a cheap "convergence device" that will allow pay-per-use movies, games, music and all other digital media on trusted hardware all across the globe. And the consumer will benefit.

I mean, which of us wouldn't defend Lode Runner for 99c a game?

What you're really looking for is an IBM Model M Spacesaver. Not as compact as the HH, but higher quality construction (buckling spring!!!). Too bad they're so rare.

You may also know me from such interviews as the Solex vs. the Pigdog and GNUisance.

I'm here to talk to you about three special letters: DEE. ENN. AY.

You may also know me from such interviews as the Solex vs. the Pigdog and GNUisance.

I'm here to talk to you about three special letters: DEE. ENN. AY.

Sorry this guy ripped off your stuff, man.

Yeah, except it's an exact copy of a Pigdog Journal article by yours truly.

Who would have thought a simple CSS remover would create such news ;)

and more news.

Anyone know what happened to that guy?

From what I understand if you try to copy a CSS-encoded DVD with a regular burner and regular file copy command, you will NOT gain access to the CSS keys, so you will NOT end up with a playable copy of the film. So while you may have a copy, there is not much to do with it.

Producers of programs that get around this seem to get sued.

The prosecution demonstrated this during the appeals trial. First they showed a short clip of The Matrix played through a licensed DVD software program on a portable computer. Then they attempted show the movie files copied from the Matrix disk, with some other player. The result was mostly a black screen.

The prosecution DID NOT demonstrate how DeCSS works...

Well then, it's now illegal to link to websites that may contain copyrighted material. Gotcha.

Well, here's a link to a page about a DeCSS program (no, not the one you're thinking).

Here's another that distributes freeware.

Oh, and a link to Disney just for the hell of it.

A note to /. mods, editors, hosts, OSDN, etc.:
The (RI|MP)AA will not come burn your house down if you "inform them" of me this second! But the instant that you mark me as +1 Funny and click on, they're going to get you, too!

Pass this on to 15 of your friends within the next 1000000 minutes or you'll have bad luck forever and your dog will die, too!

i just see this as one use when closed source would be better. same goes for mission critical military, intelligence, and government applications.

Please read Bruce Schneier's Secret's & Lies to understand why this is the antithesis of how things really work.

Schneier provides a good high-level view on security issues and helps explain why security within complex systems requires as many perspectives as possible. He also provides numerous examples of "perfect" closed-source security systems (e.g. DeCSS DVD encryption, broken by a seven-line program), "uncrackable algorithms" broken by trivial attacks and other illustrations.

*scoove*

Oh, say - being threatened by the FBI any time you watch a video? Getting fined or even jailed for linking to de-CSS or the Diebold memos?

Could you graft a fruit and, oh, I don't know...say...a cannabis plant, and produce a fruit with THC?

• Oranges that get you high
• Orange You Glad You're Alive?

Deftly links to the completely legal DeCSS

FWIW, that's not how I remember it -- the original DeCSS was (I assume) a C program, and there was a trend of re-implementing it in different languages to keep it from being eradicated. The Perl example you cite was the shortest implementation, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the original.

I can't find direct citations for this, but the "remove cascading stylesheets" DeCSS -- which came out as a protest to the original DeCSS decoder -- is talked about in this page, which is dated 16 Feb 2000. There's a reference to the 7 line Perl version from this article, dated 8 Mar 2001, and in this Wired article from Jun 2001.

This is enough to convince me that the original DeCSS wasn't as you describe here. I'm still not sure if it was Perl or not, but it wasn't the 7 liner that came out over a year later than the original.

----

REPOST: the original version of this comment had a broken anchor tag, which is corrected here. Feel free to mod the other version into oblivion...

FWIW, that's not how I remember it -- the original DeCSS was (I assume) a C program, and there was a trend of re-implementing it in different languages to keep it from being eradicated. The Perl example you cite was the shortest implementation, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the original.

I can't find direct citations for this, but the "remove cascading stylesheets" DeCSS -- which came out as a protest to the original DeCSS decoder -- is talked about in this page, which is dated 16 Feb 2000. There's a reference to the 7 line Perl version from this article, dated 8 Mar 2001, and in this Wired article from Jun 2001.

This is enough to convince me that the original DeCSS wasn't as you describe here. I'm still not sure if it was Perl or not, but it wasn't the 7 liner that came out over a year later than the original.

Ok, here you go! Not that I know why you want to strip Cascading Style Sheet tags from HTML documents... ;)

Bow before the Model M, infidel!

Bah! Infidel! Use a Post Ban Dvorak like God^H^H^HIBM wants you to!

I wonder if hollywood will try to sue PigDog for using the trademark'd name "DeCSS". I mean, they are suing for it, why not take advantage of it? Go get em guys!

RS: GNUStep I think is sort of --

LE: It's a framework.

RS: It's a framework, and I guess it, you know, I think it interoperates with Gnome now, and there's lots of people on that, so...

NM: I've been using WindowMaker for a long time now. That's, that's the window manager for GNUStep. And I know that there's a page called GnomeMaker, which is how to get Gnome and WindowMaker together, so... It proves that they are working together.

RS: So, uh, I don't if WindowMaker is build using GNUStep. I think it just works with GNUStep.

[General assenting noises]

But I think that uh, I think that uh, GNUStep works on their stuff to make it work with Guile and interoperate with Gnome. I think. I'm not sure how far they've gotten. Uh, I don't give, uh, I don't give GNUStep as our focus. It's something some people work on because they like NextStep and they want something like that on top of... I'd be happy to have them working on it, but, uh, that's not the GNU project's desktop focus.

Gnome is the project's desktop focus.

RM: There's a current editorial by Jim Dennis urging the Gnome and GNUStep people to join forces in some fashion. I haven't read it yet. [Then maybe you should pipe down, Rick!]

RS: Wholly I agree. I've been talking to the GNUStep people all the time, saying it's important to work well with Gnome. And I, I don't remember exactly what they said, but my vague memory is that they said, "Yeah." So I don't think that there's any need to, to cajole people. I think that they are working in that direction already.

...claiming that Opt Out is not a viable model for telemarketers.

Since when do the rights of US citizens depend on whether or not an industry whose entire business model is based a dubious technology get to have unpopular laws passed to protect their pitiful existence? Oh... wait...

This is an open letter to all applicant for the position of Linux Boot-Level Programmer:

d00d, Quit being a FUCKING ASS

MY GOD MAN!!! Do you realize what you're doing? DO you? What kind of HONEY BITCH TOOL have you become? Have you no shame? None at all?

Look at you. Look at yourself. Look at what you've BECOME. Your job is writing code to BREAK PEOPLE'S COMPUTERS if they dare to put a CELINE DION CD into their disk drive. Is this what you always wanted? Is this what you went to school for? Is this what we've all -- all of us, every other hacker and programmer and geek and computer person -- is this what we've all helped you to do?

Do you really think that you don't OWE us anything? That you don't owe anybody anything? That what really matters is that you get some of Celine Dion's FILTHY CANADIAN LUCRE? Hell, man, I'll pay you out of my OWN POCKET to quit your job right now. What kind of job is that? What kind of man, or woman, are you?

I know you didn't start off like this. I know that you're like me, that you're like all of us. That you love these things called computers, that your fingers itch when you're away from them, that your whole essence pours out of your fingertips into the keyboard when you make that system DO YOUR MAGIC. It's incredible, it's power, it's a tradition that goes back centuries, and it's flowing through you right now, right this very second.

And you're BETRAYING it. You're standing on the shoulders of giants and SHITTING on them. For something you believe in? For something you're PROUD OF? Or for the dollars of Sony Megacorp and the opportunity that that brings?

Who the HELL are you? What the FUCK has gotten into you? Just in case you didn't notice, this recession is OVER, and there are a JILLION jobs out there for you to take. Jobs that make people's lives easier, jobs that OPEN DOORS onto a new plateau of human awareness that the people we owe our livelihoods to only DREAMED of. Jobs that could make this world a PARADISE instead of the shitty money-grubbing craphole it's been since the dawn of time.

And instead you choose to take a job fucking up people's IMACS. For NO GOOD REASON.

It's really not too late. You can stop RIGHT NOW, you can get up and walk out the door and turn your back on the forces of REACTION and of GREED and of SMALL-MINDED CONSERVATIVE ASSHOLISM that say that the most important thing in the world is keeping some tweaked housewife in South Dakota from sharing a goddamn CELINE DION TRACK with her mom or friend or neighbor. You can stop. You can do it. YOU ARE BETTER THAN THIS.

For the sake of everyone who ever helped you with your homework. For the sake of everyone who answered your plaintive and ignorant plea for help on Usenet or some mailing-list. For the sake of every person everywhere who wrote a driver or an app or a goddamn EXAMPLE PROGRAM to show you how to make these machines sing like angels under your hands. Pay us back. Stop this crap. Stop this humiliating bullshit and stop being a tool of The Man.

[UPDATE: This article originally linked to a Knowledge Base item at apple.com covering the wilful breakage of Imacs by Sony engineers. Seems that that article has gone missing. Searches for "Celine Dion" or "copy-protected CD" on the Apple site come up empty, too. I guess maybe the problem went away on its own, hmmm? I THINK NOT. This is bad juju. Anyways, I redirected to an article in UK's Mac user about the deal. -Mr. Bad]

Behold the superior reviewing technique on display in the Pigdog Journal review!

Did a google search for decss and here you go! Oh BTW, this ./ story was on the top of the page (in the news section)!
http://www.pigdog.org/decss/
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q =decss

So? You can find DeCSS over all sorts of servers in europe, even a Google Search will create some interesting results. Infact the first few links, are a collection of links to where you can download DeCSS: First Link, Second Link and Third Link. I just hate it when people make a big deal out of something so pointless.

I'm the editor of Linux Journal and vice-president of the Silicon Valley Linux Users Group.

# Why should we burn all GIFs?

The Internet is a good thing because you don't need the permission of any one entity to publish. If you choose a patented format, you are throwing away the advantage of publishing on the Internet in the first place.

Many commonly used image editing programs come with a GIF license. However, GIF licenses on shrink-wrap software do not apply to GIFs that you may generate on the fly -- every site that does a dynamic map or chart in GIF format has to get a separate license.

# How do you burn something that is not tangible?

You print it out, and if you're holding your event in a place that prohibits public fires, you draw flames on it with a marker. It's not the burning that's important, it's freeing yourself from needing a license to publish.

# Greplaw still uses GIFs. What should we do instead?

Use PNG or JPEG images, depending on which gives you the best quality and image size. Almost all browsers in use today support both.

# Software patentability is entering Europe and European strong author's rights are entering the US. Why is this is a problem?

I'm not familiar with the strong author's rights issue.

Software patents are a big problem, though.

Best to start from first principles, since people argue the same issue from different points of view and never get anywhere. I'm going to be US-centric and look at our Constitution, which I think soundly expresses the point of view that patents are not a property right or a natural right.

Copyrights and patents appear in the Constitution in Article 1, Section 8, along with other miscellaneous economic powers of Congress. They're right next to "Post offices and post roads".

If patents are not a natural right or a property right, what are they? As you might guess by the post office and road connection, they're a government program to promote economic growth. Patents are intended to do two things: promote R&D investment by the private sector; and encourage the private sector to publish inventions. The Constitution makes this explicit in its stated reason for copyrights and patents: "to promote the progress of science and useful arts."

Patents reward these two economically desirable behaviors (doing research and publishing) with a temporary government-granted monopoly on a particular invention. Congress has full discretion on what kinds of content can get a patent and on how long a patent can last. (If patents were a "right" the Constitution would require them -- as it is, the Constitution only allows them.)

So, how should Congress decide which kinds of content get a patent and which don't? You have to strike a balance between, on one hand, the economic benefit of any R&D motivated by the prospect of a patent that would not have happened otherwise, and on the other hand, the transaction costs that are an inevitable result of the patent's existence.

You have to draw the line of what gets a patent and what doesn't somewhere. If you allow the patenting of rhyming words, sports plays, or musical notes, day-to-day life becomes an impossible mess of patent cross-licensing. And, as for these areas, there is no economic evidence that software patents help the economy or even encourage R&D. They may do the opposite -- see the Bessen and Maskin paper (PDF-format).

Software is a good thing because in software, a small investment can create and manage great complexity. When you impose the same transaction costs on software as on hardware, much useful software that could otherwise have been created does not exist. We are seeing this today in the field of video compression. The MPEG patent licensing mess is excluding everyone except for large, well-funded corporations from creating innovative new video-related software.

There may be increased R&D investment in a few areas, such as video compression, due to the prospect of a lucrative patent, but this economic gain is swamped by the loss of productive software later.

As a software patent opponent, I argue simply that patentability creep should be rolled back. The patent office should again exclude algorithms and business methods, as it already excludes ordinary mathematical theorems and their proofs. Forming a "GPL patent pool" might help to cut some of the transaction costs where GPL-covered software is concerned but cannot hope to ameliorate patents' harm to developers who use other licenses.

# Why should a lawyer be interested in Linux?

Why should a lawyer be interested in Cat 5 cable, or ATX power supplies, or USB keyboards? Linux is a generic, commodity item that does what you want it to do, as part of a larger system that you control.

# How will free software change society?

Free software won't so much change society as it will bring the computer business more in line with the rest of the economy. If you went shopping for any non-computer product, and got offered an End User License Agreement like those offered in the computer business, you'd laugh and walk out. Free software gives the customer the same rights of inspection and control that he or she has when buying non-computer products such as furniture (you can cut a hole for your cables in your desk) or cars (you can change your own oil.)

If you want to read a novel where software-like licensing is applied to a regular product with ludicrous results, read "Secrets of the Wholly Grill: A Novel about Cravings, Barbecue, and Software" by Lawrence G Townsend.

# Many countries consider public procurement policies where free software should be encouraged or even mandated. What is your take on a "Peru law"?

Governments have a responsibility to their citizens not to enter into unfair contracts. Most or all proprietary software licenses are unfair contracts, and subject the customer to lock-in and limit the customer's ability to fix problems.

Microsoft's lobbying against fair software purchase laws has been weak. They don't even put an End User License Agreement on their web site. If even the people who wrote it are ashamed of it, why should anyone else be willing to accept it?

# After September 11, 2001 you wrote an open letter to Michael Eisner, head of Disney, urging him not to go to Washington, D.C. to lobby for the SSSCA. Why did you do that?

I am on a mailing list based on a Linux server across the street from the World Trade Center. On September 11th, the traffic was about who's where, is everyone all right, which hospitals are open for blood donations, is a particular subway station open, what's going on. Stuff you can't get from TV. We can't let the media corporations seize control of hardware, lock out free software, and turn the net into a one-way medium like TV. Unless printing and postage get real cheap real fast, free speech in the USA needs the net.

# If major companies like IBM and Sun discontinue their support of free software, what will the effects be on the current movement?

Remember the question, "If the Linux startups fail, what will happen to free software?" There's enough customer pull that if customers can't get free software products and services from IBM and Sun, they'll get it someplace else.

# Declan McCullagh of News.com has stated: 'Trust me, a few--even a few thousand--peeved e-mail messages won't change vote totals that lopsided', hence geeks should focus on code, not on government. Do you agree?

Email spam was a "geek" issue until recently, and now, as it affects more and more people, the organizations that begain calling politicians' attention to it are involved in the mainstream political process. If you learn and understand the political process now, and begin making contacts, you will better be able to use the support you get as the anti-Net crackdown affects more and more people.

Declan is half-right in that focusing on code is good too. By all means, develop something that's questionable DMCA-wise but that everybody wants to use. You will motivate more people to be interested in DMCA reform.

# Finally - what is Pigdog and why?

Pigdog.org is the leading Internet news and content site. I am not an employee, just a satisfied reader.

Don Marti was interviewed by Mikael Pawlo.

http://www.pigdog.org/auto/drive_in_pigdog/shortfe ature/2592.html

DeCSS

So, I decided that if I couldn't distribute DeCSS, I would distribute DeCSS. Like, I could distribute another piece of software called DeCSS, that is perfectly legal in every way, and would be difficult for even the DVD-CCA's lawyers to find fault with.

So that's what I'm doing. I wrote a small utility called "DeCSS" that strips Cascading Style Sheet tags from an HTML document. Yes, agreed, that's pretty much USELESS, but what the fuck. Maybe somebody wants to do that. AND it makes the name of the software much more plausible.

Funny looks like he's still there. Took me awhile to dig that far back into my bookmarks though:

DeCSS

http://www.underwhelm.org/freedima/073001.html

Makes you wonder how many they were expecting

Looks about 30-40 people in this one

Interest in your petty piracy wars is low among the general public.