Slashdot Mirror
Western Digital Announces 200 Gig Drives
twilightzero writes "Video capture fanatics and pr0n moguls, rejoice! Today marks the official release of the Western Digital 200 GB hard drive! Never again run out of space for your X-10 video stream of the neighbor's house! See the graphic, specs, and press release. This also marks the release of WD drives using fluid dynamic bearings rather than the old BB type." The glorious march of technology continues forward, and digital video fans rejoice. Update: 07/26 03:34 GMT by M : Headline corrected. Taco's at a conference, cut him a little slack.
This 20 megger is beginning to feel cramped. I might even be able to upgrade to MS DOS 5.0!
I'm just a little confused!
Mormon news and discussion at Mahonri.org
now I can store all my mp3's on one drive!
Oops! I did it again
Why is the headline for Maxtor if the whole article is about Western Digital?
Maxtor, or Western Digital????
Either a typo, sudden merger or most likely I've been under a rock for a long time.
Important Stuff:
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
Headline says Maxtor. Story says WD. Ooops. (BTW, let's see if this gets first post ;)
Would someone care to educate the Slashdot masses about the differences between the old bearings and these new liquid ones? I'm in the market for a new drive, and I'd be curious to know what the difference is. Would the new bearings come at a price premium?
*(ok, maybe not goodness, depending on your point of view ;-)
That's definitely huge. It could be good for webhosting though. But then again, with such a hard drive, more people would be eager to download large multimedia files like videos and movies. Right now, one of the only things to stop them would be the lack of space.
Not Maxtor!
I like Maxtor Products better.
No dead Maxtor drives yet, I have a few Seagates that died and gave up on WD.
This sig is self referential.
Slashcode needs a module that automatically uses sed to weed out user error :)
Article mentions Maxtor in the title, but all links point to Western Digital. Something I missed?
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
You'd only need the 160 gig HD.
Intel today announced the availability of the Athlon 3000XP!
so who is it? maxtor or wd with the 200 gig drive? to go so far as to get the name of the company the whole news item is about: now that's just BAD.
Video capture fanatics and pr0n moguls, rejoice!
Hurray!
This message was brought to you by the death of 30 brain cells.
This is really old news... the press release is dated June 25th. I found out about this last month from storagereview.com.
Also, Maxtor has not said anything about a 200GB drive yet, despite the title of the headline.
Would it be possible to launch a reverse DOS attack on the RIAA by storing hundreds of thousands of fake mp3 files with song names on a 200 gig hard drive, or better yet a network of computers with 200 gig hard drives?
~ now you know
Microsoft Announces the release of OS XI
Linus finally releases a stable NT kernel
Sweet
60 gigs a platter, so to get to 200 gigs there must be 4 of them. 4 times 60 is 240. What gives?? Is this one of those deals where they lock out sections of the drive so they can release a larger model later???
I remember when the computer community was clamoring about the new 200 MEG drives. :)
O.K. So I'm old.
Open Source: Every now and then, you get what you don't pay for.
is it any wonder that tech companies are dying left and right?
Im sure you all remember they days of the 20 Meg drive or the massive 200 meg drive. I remember people saying to me "Wow, You'll never run out of space with that". How wrong could they be. How long until we look back on 200Gig and say "what on earth did they use that for?"
Is there any limit to how much data we can store on a magnetic platter? If so how much? How long before we have a hard drive which hold 200TB?
Is there any movment towards solid state drives in the future as being the norm?
I did not come up with the following, but found it somewhere in here.
...)
Our yellow sun yields to the dark
as I begin my web based lark
Flowing, turning, through the pipe
I grep for text and dump the hype...
But as I ride the fiber trail
I test my faith as I read my mail,
Even as my bandwidth fattens,
I question life and 1-click patents...
Although I ask, and though I query,
I know the truth, I grock the theory
Life is a multimedia of sins
so he who collects the most pr0n wins.
(must not laugh
I noticed the Fluid bearings thing on newegg.com on a Maxtor, 40gb drive, earlier today.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
"Keep your life on it"
Do you get to claim life insurance when it dies?
sig.
So is this Maxtor's evil plot to slashdot the WD website?
It may be 200 gig...but I'm hearing this gorilla sized hard drive screaming as the slashdot effect takes over...
First of all i'm not complaining about "editor" mistakes... i could care less. But this is a western digital drive not a maxtor one, things like that seem rather silly to let slip through the cracks. And just to be sure I checked maxtor to see if they had anything, but all i could really find (in about 15 seconds worth of time) was a page about > 137 gig drives.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Video capture fanatics and pr0n moguls, rejoice! Please, somebody think of the l337 w4r3z k1dd13z and Linux/BSD ISO whores! They're people too!
I once shot a man in Reno 'cause they cancelled Firefly.
I want this storage on an Ipod, or a Nomad.
Hrm, my motherboards don't recognize drives over 120 gigs due to some weird LBA limit of 132 gigs.
Kris
Kriston
About one-third of the comments at the current count is about how it is WD and not Maxtor that makes this new drive. Dammit slashbots are lame.
I've installed a couple different drives with the fluid bearings, and they do run quieter than the older style bearings. Very nice!
Hey, now
Seriously, that is all I can say. The hard drive manufacturers have been colluding for more than a year now to avoid putting larger size drives out on the market. Well, you can only wait so long. Btw, what they were doing was prima facie illegal, but it will never been prosecuted. Fortunately, the detriment of their own actions will overtake them as other technologies invade and displace their (previously-easy-to-maintain) monopoly. Can't expect the march of progress to stop just for your profit grabbing Maxtor/Seagate/Western Digital/Etc.
Ford unveils thier new Chevy Blazer!!
...Or was it just a wild meetup for CmdrTaco? Anyway, do the "Special Edition" WD drives use liquid bearings too, or is the 8 MB cache the only advantage to them? And when will we start seeing Serial ATA compatible drives? That's what I'm waiting for...hot swapping, builtin CRC checking, 150MB/sec transfers, no "master/slave" settings, and no more wasting $$$ on rounded cables!
Cmdr Taco was quoted as "being disappointed" with the decision, but was "looking forward" to spending more time at home with his computer.
In related news, OSDN has banned drugs, alcohol, controlled substances and Cowboy Neal from the Slashdot campus.
WD Caviar® 60 GB-Per-Platter Family Satisfies Today's Need for Speed and Capacity
LAKE FOREST, Calif., Jun 25, 2002 - Continuing to lead the 7,200 RPM market with its WD Caviar® family, Western Digital Corp (NYSE: WDC) today introduced the industry's largest capacity hard drive - its WD Caviar 200 GB 7,200 RPM product. This milestone marks the fourth consecutive first-to-market 7,200 RPM hard drive delivered by Western Digital - which was first to deliver 7,200 RPM hard drives in 80, 100 and 120 GB capacities.
WD Caviar 60 GB-per-platter 7,200 RPM hard drives will be offered in capacities ranging from 120 to 200 GB and will be available this July. To ensure quiet operation in noise-sensitive desktop/work station environments, Western Digital offers hard drives equipped with optional fluid dynamic bearing (FDB) motors.
"Hard drive manufacturers are providing incredible levels of performance and capacity to the PC market, as well as to today's emerging markets demanding massive local storage such as personal video recorders," said Mark Geenen, president of TrendFocus, a research firm specializing in the data storage market "Western Digital successfully focuses on the highest capacity and highest performance EIDE hard drives, and delivers another first with 200 gigabytes."
"Continued demand for the exceptional performance of 7,200 RPM hard drives at the highest capacities makes these hard drives an ideal choice for computing needs that range from top-of-the-line desktops and work stations to high-end IDE applications such as entry-level enterprise servers," said Richard E Rutledge, vice president of marketing for Western Digital.
You'll need an ATA133 controller, or a RAID controller that can address drives beyond the current limitation of most ATA100 controllers.
Promise makes one, I'm sure. Maxtor 160gig drives are sometimes bundled with a controller.
I'm in the market for a new machine, and I've been spec'ing out different parts for my budget...These drives are nice and big, but what happens when you lose a 120 gig drive...I've pretty much decided that I'm going to have to get an IDE RAID card and highly recommend them...the RAID cards at work have saved me hours and hours of restoring from backup...Check out the 3ware Escalade, the Promise SuperTrak, or the Adaptec 2400A. RAID 5 is the way to go (with or without removable drives). I've been watching the prices for 120 Gig drives drop and now it's just about the price where I can afford to spend 150 clams to buy an extra drive that would be used to protect myself from a drive failure.
- grunby
Heavy load.
/products/products.asp
Active Server Pages error 'ASP 0113'
Script timed out
The maximum amount of time for a script to execute was exceeded. You can change this limit by specifying a new value for the property Server.ScriptTimeout or by changing the value in the IIS administration tools
A Poem of Evil Systems Administration
rr: flicker! flicker! little modem light!
madprof: see you shine, so neat, so bright!
madprof: i wonder why you flicker so?
madprof: is it cos you're 'effing slow?
ford prefect: transmitting packets through the night...
rr: slinging porno byte by byte...
rr: watch the monitor's pink glow...
rr: as the image starts to grow...
madprof: ping it! ping it! watch it die!
rr: hear the hard disk crash and fry!
madprof: see the user weep and cry,
crusader: reboot again and wonder why?
Found at:
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~crypto/index.html
Instead of piping bytes from /dev/null have it repeat instances of something like the Copyright Law or the DMCA.
For kicks, get sued by the MPAA/RIAA and get them to open your files in something like notepad - in court. Smack them with a countersuit for being insanely stupid (which you're bound to win for obvious reasons), retire and live happily ever after, knowing that you've done us all a big favor.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
if you have five(5) that drives - then you have 1TeraByte of info. If you have 5000 of that drives - you have One Petabyte of information... If you bave
5000000 that drives - you have Exabyte (?) of information. But what if you have 5 000 000 000 ?
Backing up this sucker ought to be fun. Hmm, I only need 138,888 floppies! Lessee, at the rate of one floppy inserted a minute, that'll take me over 96 days straight!
If I get started right away, I'll be well prepared for the inevitable HD crash that will follow my installation of WinXP SP-1.
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
gotta be a bitch. That's something like
138,889 floppies. If they're 1/8 inch
that's a stack about a quarter mile
high!
Haha. Pun intended. But seriously, these new 200 GB drives are much like IBM's failed attempt at creating hard drives. They have a high failure rate because of the inferior parts used in manufacture (made in third world countries).
Do yourself a favor and do not purchase these drives until Maxtor cleans up their act and proves to be less like IBM and more like Seagate (using the newest technology available manufactured right here in the US of A).
..how much slashdot sucks. god, it sucks..
getting mfgrs wrong, 4th grade reuse of the word "rejoice".. CAN SOMEONE FROM LNUX TELL US WHY YOU ARE PAYING HIM WHEN THERE ARE STARVING CHILDREN IN AMERICA
The bottom half of the bottom platter is used to read sectors and such, like a grid. It doesn't hold any data.
Since when does Slashdot, the mecca of GNU/Linux, BSD, OSS/free software, etc., need to tell people about the hardware they'll need to run the next version of Windows?
#define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
Finally, I can store all my nude photos of CowboyNeal on a single drive!
We know that the maker is Western Digital... ;)
because Maxtor's site has not been Slashdotted
We're Doomed
Almost every expert on this matter will tell you that h.d. larger than 40GB is an inefficient way of data storage. Why? Because seek/read/write ratios on those drives are slower even if you increase RPMs (rotational speed). For fast access needs and I/O operations smaller drives are better, not to mention that when a larger h.d. fails it is moree costly to change it that a smaller drive. Larger drive cost more, right? It's the selling that drives the capacity. But this is one of those crazy things that comapanies like to propage to increase its sales, "I did this, I did that". I don't think anyone cares about it anymore.
IP was invented for the sake of lawsuits.
Yes that's right, no more ball bearings. That means I can actually see what happens when I shut down my Linux box. Not that I have to, but I dont' have to worry about my ball bearings getting dimples. An added plus it'll save a couple bucks off of the electric bill.
There was a recent ask Slashdot regarding temperatures (vehicle) and the effect on PCs. (Too lazy to look it up.)
Does anyone know if fluid dynamic bearings would change the minimum temperature that a drive requires to spin up?
It may be a bit more elegant if you actually hacked the p2p client or FTP server to just pipe x bytes from /dev/null.
/dev/null? Isn't that like trying to get oxygen from a vacuum or light from a black hole? "Null" is nothing, that's why it's called that. If you pipe from null, you'll get... nothing.
/dev/zero or /dev/[u]random. Or if you're doing this to piss of the RIAA and you're really stupid, then dd if=/dev/hda of=m00z4k.mp3.
Exactly how does one pipe bytes from
Perhaps what you meant to say was
Why bother.
maybe they got 66 gigs per platter
-or-
Switch(TM) to a larger drive. Oh, and my name is Lamerz and I'm a 133t h@X0r.
And the previous site that went down from a slashdotting was running PHP/Apache. Point? You're stupid.
i'll just rip everything to WAVs and leave them like that!
wtf is going on? did they shut off his electricity too?
You have been missed.
Writers imply. Readers infer.
Why would access times be any different that those that you have now? The platter size would be marginally larger, if the size changed at all.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
What about economics?
I was thinking that raid-5 might be a really cool way to go, but when I looked into it, it seems that raid-1 on the motherboard might be cheaper.
Wouldn't 4 x 120gig drives + raid-1 cost less than 3 x 120gig drives plus a raid-5 controller?
I wonder where the break-even point is...
Okay, so this has been bugging me for a while. Why do you think that there should be a moratorium on the use of the apostophe?
Now I can decompress all of that pr0n I have. WOO, fast access to pr0n.
Wow to back that up we are looking at like 138,886 floppies! Good thing Apple ditched floppies long ago. Maybe now PC users will get the wake up call that you just can't backup your HD to floppies anymore.
Back in the day, we had 20mb hard drives, and we liked it too!
I recently ditched my WD 8.4 GB drive. Not that there was anything wrong with it, nor had I even filled it. In fact, I had only used up 4 of the 8.4 GB is the 4 years I'd had it.
Why did I get rid of it? Because the WD 80 GB model was only $100 after rebate. And now that I have all this space, guess how much of it I use? 8 GB. This is after I loaded every conceivable thing I had (and every option available in each program. Yep, Street Atlas no longer needs a CD to run.
And so, after putting everything I had on the thing. I still can't fill it. Maybe a TiVo needs it, but I've probably got enough hard drive space to last me another 5 years.. That's gotta be music to the ears of hard drive manufacturers struggling to make a profit!
What happens when the smallest new HD available is
over 40GB ??? We are quickly approaching this situation.
-
-
As with processors when will HD manufacturers realize
that power usage has GOT to be brought WAAAAAAY down.
When I can run a 1GZ processor on a watch battery
for a year, then we will have real progress.
Until that time its just showing off who has the biggest
appendage of the bunch? pure bravado.
Just seeing the size of this drive made me hot. I really need to get one of these drives. It is watch keeps my ameture movie making alive, a Digi cam and TONS of harddrive space.
Dan Mayer: my blog, essays, art, etc
(That was assuming you're using linux and raid-5 controllers cost around $250-$300...)
Yeah, Taco's grammar, spelling, punctuation, and fact-checking abilities are severely impaired by all the Linux Bong-Hits he's been doing.
When he returns on Monday, he'll be back in top form!
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
...
My other first post is car post.
What?! I don't think is Maxtor guys, try WESTERN DIGITAL.
Glad to help straighten things out.
I guess it depends on how much drive space you want...You'd still be paying for the RAID 1 functionality on the mobo (albeit not as much as a separate card). 4x120gig with raid 1 on the mobo would probably be around the same price as 3x120gig with a separate raid 5 controller. $/gig with raid 1 is the most expensive so I guess if storage space isn't that great, raid 1 would be the way to go. But as you get more drives with raid 5, the $/gig (or the obligatory $/.jpg of pr0n) goes down...In my situation, I was thinking of getting 4 120 gig drives. I've got about 6 months of the howard stern show (set up a cron job to record it every morning and I've been to lazy to burn it all), vmware images of 3 different os's, and my family's vast mp3 collection all stored between three machines...but hey that's my situation...
oh yeah - and the pr0n...
- grunby
OK.. so there are cool hard drives for desktop systems? What can I do for my poor little laptop? 60 gig is the farthest I can go to right now, and even that is pretty pricey.
...compared to the new Ford Exorbitant.
Microsoft today announced that due to the revealed Western Digital technology, they can disclose that Windows Longhorn will actually be a Full-Motion Video (FMV) Operating System, which will require a 200Gig drive to install on.
Ñ'
Am I the only one who has had every single Western Digital drive I've ever bought fail completely within months? The failure is usually preceded by a horrible clunking noise that lasts a month or two, followed by catastrophic data loss. And it's happened with every WD drive I've purchased (and that's six so far). Needless to say, I've stopped buying WD drives.
Okay, so it's a 200GB drive... Not trying to rain on /.'s parade or anything, but that's hardly newsworthy.
Give me an inexpensive medium to backup such a beast (even 700MB CD-Rs seem inadequate in terms of capacity lately). If you have to post a story about hard drives, give me a story about next generation storage technology - not a higher capacity version of the same technology we're currently using.
Please save the "Western digital now has a 200GB drive" messages for somewhere it belongs - on your banner ads.
---
Siggy, siggy, siggy, can't you see? Sometimes your puns just irritate me.
dd of=m00z4k.mp3 bs=1 seek=1874373 count=0
so that no disk space (except the dentry and the inode) is wasted... Oh, you have just bought a shiny 200gb disk, haven't you?
Use unison and two drives to synchronize the filesystems. I actually use unison with two desktop computers and a server to keep all 3 in sync! With copies of everything on 3 hard drives, I don't worry too much.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Would someone care to educate the Slashdot masses about the differences between the old bearings and these new liquid ones? I'm in the market for a new drive, and I'd be curious to know what the difference is.
Well, I can't speak for hard disk drives, but I can maybe draw an analogy.
Wheel bearings - on cars, trucks, bicycles, whatever - use ball bearings. They're a set of caged balls, and one surface literally rolls over the other on a cushion of tiny little balls or cylindrical rollers. Here's an animated GIF and some other neat stuff. The problem is that, whatever the lubrication, eventually the balls and their races will wear, which increases the clearance between the two surfaces and causes looseness ("play") within the bearings. In wheel bearings, this translates into a shimmy in the wheel and weird tire wear. In a hard disk drive, this would result in a shimmy to the platters, causing less precision in data reading and writing as the platters vibrate nanometers back and forth under the heads. As the drives get to higher and higher capacities with the same physical disk size, the tracks being used must be getting smaller, and therefore this error becomes more crucial. Also, notice that hard drives which have been running for a long time tend to get noisy... Never mind that bits of metal being worn out of bearings have to be contained somehow so that the platters and heads don't get damaged.
Liquid bearings are used in all modern car engines. Oil is pumped from the oil pan into a very tiny space between a relatively soft bearing shell and a very smooth and hard crankshaft or camshaft journal. As the shaft spins, the oil is distributed thoughout the bearing surface and eventually leaks out the sides where it drains back to the pan to be pumped through the system again. Here's a picture of the main bearings of a Ford V8. You can see the little holes where oil is pumped into them. While the engine is running, theoretically, the shaft's journal and the bearing surface never actually touch each other; they ride on a cushion of continually replaced microscopic ball bearings (oil molecules). During circulation, the oil takes the heat away from the bearings, and washes away impurities.
How you'd implement something like this in a hard disk drive, I have no idea, and I'd love to see any real techical info on it. (Marketing hype will not answer the questions I have.) But it's a great idea; in a server, with the hard disks spinning all the time, the hydrodynamics of the situation suggest that the platter bearings would never wear, and would therefore never have their tolerances open up and incur vibration.
But a seal would be required to keep the lubricant off the platters, and that seal would itself eventually wear out. Not to mention that it's unlikely they'll include a provision to do an oil change on these things. Stopping and starting cycles will wear the bearing and journal material, causing tiny abrasive bits to be floating in the oil.
I like the idea, I think it's a great step, and I'll look forward to seeing how hard disk manufacturers have solved the problems.
Would the new bearings come at a price premium?For sure! Even if it costs less to machine these than the super-tight clearance ball-bearings that modern hard disks must use, they'll still be a "new feature" which can enhance prices and profit margins. But I think they will actually cost more to make; it's just that ball bearings (like older stepper motor head actuators) have too many limitations to work with modern capacity and track density demands.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Still not enough space to rip my whole CD collection. Guess I'll just keep listening to them on my phat stereo, the way music should be! :)
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
That's what he's saying... He's saying that with hardware, yes you get what you pay for, but with software, that's generally NOT the case.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Does anyone know if fluid dynamic bearings would change the minimum temperature that a drive requires to spin up?
Well, assuming that these fluid bearings are smooth races with a "ball bearing" of oil molecules in between (ie. like bearings in any car engine since the 1930s), absolutely.
From the descriptions, from what I can tell, we're only talking about bringing automotive engine main bearing technology, on some scale, to hard disk drives.
Whatever the liquid lubricant, when it's cold, it's likely to be thicker. Which will mean that it will take more motor torque to get it spinning when it's cold. (Think of how much slower your starter motor turns your engine on a really cold day; not all of that is the reduced efficiency of the battery in cold weather!)
I think, in cold environments, these drives might take a while longer to spin up, but once they're spinning, the turbulence in the oil in the bearings will warm it up quickly enough. Also, when it's really cold, the bearing clearances will be smaller because they probably will have contracted more than the journals.
Compared to ball bearings which will have no fluid filling the bearing clearances as the temperature changes, I'd imagine these will be less prone to vibration and read/write errors as the bearing temperature changes. (Not that it matters much, all modern hard disk drives use a closed-loop servo system to detect the position of the heads relative to the platters.)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Never again run out of space for your X-10 video stream of the neighbor's house!
:P) So I never miss a chance to infuence people into computers. Kid said he played CS so I invited him to play on a station not being used.
You don't know how true of a statement that is.
A few weeks back I was having a lan party in my garage. Pretty hot, so the door was closed to about a foot. Halfway through playing the neighbors 16 yro ritilin hyped Add kid (aunt later told me this) kid crawled under the 1 foot gap in the garage.
I consider myself a computer philanthopist (yeah right, i'm unemployed
Well about 10 rounds later kid turns to me and asks, "Know where to get any dope?" I ask him his age, find out he's 16 and intruct him never to speak of that again in my house in order to maintain neighborhood harmony. After a few more minutes he takes off till about 8.
Now anyone that has ever been to a private lan party knows that after many straight hours of interactive gaming a break of non-interactivity is required. So we were sitting around watching funny pr0n when I looked over and the kid was back! He didn't announce himself or anything, he was just sitting there all quiet (creepy like)
Well, earlier that day I had fried the bios on a friends computer. So I payed him no mind and went back to searching the web for a fix when his mother and aunt came over. They both seemed pretty drunk and started flirting with my friends. I mean heavy flirting, like one of my buddies has japanese kanji characters tattood on his arm, and she was tracing the outline while running her fingers through his hair. These bitches were straight FREAKY DEEKS! No BS here, these middle age broads were down for some young cock!
Well, i'm still staring at my screen trying to not pay attention to whats going on when the kids mom started rubbing up on me. I got pissed (any true get gets pissed when someone breaks their concentration) so I thought I would make a smart ass remark to her..
"HEY TELL YOUR KID TO QUIT HITTIN MY FRIENDS UP FOR DOPE!!"
Everyone started laughing, she went up to her son, said his name in a whiny tone of voice NooooLAAAN and sorta hugged him. He sheepishly grinned and I thought that was that. I had told the kid no askin, and I had let the parent know what happened. I thought I had done my duty as a neighbor and went back to fixing that bios.
She went home, about 5 minutes later the kids stepdad comes out. NOLAN TOQER! COME HERE I WANNA TALK TO YOU! I told the guys to wait there, wasn't a big deal and i'd be back in a minute.
Well, I followed the guy out front, he got 6 inches in my face and started holding a fist, threatening to call the cops on me for delinquency to a minor, and was just being drunk and nasty (I could hella smell it on his breath)
"Hey if you want to come over here to get a point across thats cool, but getting 6 inches in my face isn't, now if you would just take a step back and a breath, maybe we can talk about this rationally" I took a step back while sayin that just in case, he started lurching forward so I started yelling "GET THE FUCK OFF MY PROPERTY!! GET THE FUCK OFF MY PROPERTY!!"
Well, by that time the clan had stood up, and his wife was over there pulling him back across the street apogizing the whole time.
Before people start dissin me, let me explain some known things about this cat.
1. He only bought his house 3 months ago
2. He's pissed every neighbor off by leaving his dog out front all day while he's at work so it wont shit in his backyard (guess where it goes?)
3. He's gotten into fights with 4 neighbors
4. nobody, and I mean nobody in the neighborhood likes this cat.
5. Oh and just today the mailman had to mace his dog, and told me he wont deliver mail to the neighborhood if his dog keeps getting left out.
6. If this guy is worried about his stepson being around dope, he shouldn't go asking his neighbors himself where he can get it.
Well, i'm really not that much of a fighter. I'm 29, pack a day smoker since I was like 10, and I really REALLY am a pencil neck geek. So yeah, basically i'm scared because this house I bought and planned on living in for the next 30 years has some drunken fat surly construction worker living across the street wanting to kick my ass. What to do???
Well, MY GEEK POWERS COMBINED! I set up a video capture card and camera combo. I mounted the camera in an electrical box, and put tinted plexiglass over the front. It now points at my frontyard waiting to catch his dog shitting on my yard, or my neighbors yard. The camera goes into a MS WMS on a win2k server (If someone can point me to something open source i'll use it)
The trusted neighbors all know about the camera and connect to it over our cat5 fence network to watch it. Currently I can store 24 hours of low quality video on the crud equipment I have.
I guess this comment really doesn't have much to do with a 200gig hard drive, or the show cmdr taco is at, but that comment on x10 camera's just hit home, so I wanted to post this.
--toq
So you think you are old?
TI-99/4A! :) I had a 5.25" single-sided single-density floppy disk drive, with a whopping 90k per diskette. The average application was about 20k, word processor, Editor/Assembler development package, etc. Sticking in another diskette was like adding a new hard disk drive to your machine today! :)
Then some nut in the TI User's Group realized that we could stick two of the new half-height double-sided drives then becoming popular in PC/XTs into the disk drive bay. 180k per drive, two drives at once! (TI Disk Controller cards wouldn't run double-density, so we didn't get the full 360k/disk.) Literally, you could go weeks or months using nothing but the two diskettes in the two drives.
I kinda miss that. But, then again, that was before the good porn came in large, high-resolution 1+ megabyte JPGs. (16 colors was enough back then, too...)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
(see parent post for original quote)
not that there's anything wrong with that.
To attempt to bring this post back on-topic (even though it is beyond redemption), will a rounded ATA-66 cable even work? I thought the reason those cables had extra wires was as grounded shields to prevent crosstalk, wouldn't rounding the cable reintroduce crosstalk?
I'm glad that the hard drive companies are realizing our need for more hard drive space. I mean sheesh, my Neverwinter Nights install takes up 2 gigs! One day we'll probably have memory sticks that size, strange to think...
Are you sure you're not JonKatz, getting mixed up with 16-year-old boys and all?
Just check to make sure the card is supported by your favorite distro first. I still can't get my integrated raid to work with linux on my soyo dragon plus mobo. Its especially wierd that linux has poor ide raid support considering the people who are most likely to run ide-raid are also big linux fans.
Jesus Christ. Do you realize how long and irrelevant that post is?
Stinky monkey.
Yea, next time instead of posting, just have a beer and click the [X].
Long and irrelevant? Nah. Kind of interesting. A little slice of life.
If someone had put a scene like that in a movie, it would have been called "over the top" and "cliche".
If you edit this down to the best 10 minutes every week, post it somewhere and then post the URL.
Sheesh, even Weird Al Songs do a better job staying on topic.
;)
And my, my, my, you could sure put a lot of Weird Al songs on a 200GB drive.
You don't need RAID cards to do RAID-5 under linux. Just get a couple of IDE cards, plug in the drives, and make them IDE. IIRC, Linux Software RAID is faster than hardware RAID, and cheaper too. ATA-100 cards are around 30 bucks and you can do A nice RAID5 with 2 cards. I did just that with the 99 dollar 120 GB 5400 RPM WD drives purchased at Frys here in Phoenix.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Keep in mind that most onboard IDE controllers lack support for any drives over 137GB. So expect to buy the latest controller card or motherboard.
...for Western Digital to rethink their webserver strategies.
/products/products.asp
/.ed, but I guess they can!
Here's what filled my web window in my attempt to view the specs of this 200GB hard drive:
Active Server Pages error 'ASP 0113'
Script timed out
The maximum amount of time for a script to execute was exceeded. You can change this limit by specifying a new value for the property Server.ScriptTimeout or by changing the value in the IIS administration tools.
I mean, I really didn't think that a company as big as Western Digital could actually be
(For those of you complaining about how 200GB hard drive is not any worthy news, there certainly was enough people interested to still bring the server to a standstill.)
no way i'm paying that, in a year it will be 100$
Yes, rounding a parallel ATA cable has the potential of introducing crosstalk, but since modern ATA drives have basic CRC checking built in, any data that is lost is retransmitted. This degrades transfer rates somewhat, but is basically negligible unless you're benchmarking. Also, rounded cables braided in twisted-pair fashion reduces the potential of crosstalk.
jeese..what they been waiting on?
Can you imagine a RAID array of these?
(rimshot)
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Dang that's a lot of gigs. It would take me over 2 years of sustained downloading on my 26400bps connection to fill that thing up.
In high school, a few of my friends and I salvaged PDP's and gigantic 5MB drives from dumpsters outside of a telecommunications building. Those beasts weighed a hell of a lot, made of solid steel, with belt driven spindles and massive motors with heatsinks on 'em.
:)
.. and it was really cool to run long lengths of those skinny little wires to the editing stations. After dealing with FC, I'm seriously looking forward to working with Serial ATA and Serial SCSI -- those complex multi-pin connections just gotta go.
:)
Interesting to think that something that's about 1/10th of a percent of the size of those monsters contains almost 41,000 times more data.
Technology. Great stuff.
Another story to bore your socks off:
When I was working at an animation/film editing studio five years ago, we dropped a serious amount of money on a 200GB fibre channel array to feed three Avid workstations. It was a beast of a box, easily weighing over a hundred pounds
Anyhow. Enough of my drivel.
heh... the day that i need to take my computer to Jiffy Lube / Grease Monkey to get serviced, i am officially never, ever touching on of them for the rest of eternity.
on a more serious note: Abrasives are not so bad when you get your race(s) sealed up well enough. and since they are never supposed to touch eachother, (and this is not like a crankshaft that's under tremendous load / temperture stress) -- the problem with particles getting suspendid in the oil / whatever would be fairly small.
i would, however, but concerned about the start and stop of the drive. when they spin up / down the liquid film has not formed yet and that's when, if ever, the races will grind into eachother -- albeit for a short time only.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
200 pornobytes! HELL YES!
The maximum amount of time for a script to execute was exceeded. You can change this limit by specifying a new value for the property Server.ScriptTimeout or by changing the value in the IIS administration tools
But *why* does Microsoft feel the need to deface every Slashdotted IIS website with instructions for the administrator of the box?
I mean, when something breaks, why not just have an "5xx Server Error - Oops, this server is overloaded at the moment, please come back when traffic tapers off" or similar visitor-oriented message?
I've had to support Windows users who see this message in a browser window, get confused that there's something wrong with *their* machine, and ask me to fix it!
Either Microsoft's plan is to make newbie users think that the reason they can't view the site is a flaw on their end (not with Microsoft's well-planned attempts to take over the server market as well), or the people who administer Microsoft websites are sufficiently stupid that they don't monitor their site's condition in ways other than visiting it! (ie. find the log files, and go through them periodically)
I think it would be so much more elegant to display a concise error to the website's visitor, and automagically mail a description of the error and corrective instructions to administrator@$HOSTNAME. (One would hope that by the time one is administering a server farm, one could have figured out the mail aliases database, and could have 300 servers reporting in to one e-mail address, yet, interestingly, few of these people appear to have figured out how to hide the ASP error messages...)
If you car breaks down by the side of the road, the gauges on the dashboard aren't flashed on a huge public billboard which instantly appears on the car. Passers-by seeing you and laughing at you: "Ha-ha! He ran out of fuel! Dummy!"
Yet this is *exactly* what IIS does. Don't believe me? How 'bout ASP errors primarily displaying programming bugs in the user-created scripting?
Not withstanding the experience of any particular site under a mighty Slashdotting, and even if Apache on *NIX were inferior, I'd still be embarrassed to run IIS precisely because insults my intelligence... in the public forum of my own webpage.
Yes, these people are paying money (electricity, bandwidth, machine time) to have their mistakes publicized. That sounds like a great way to run a business.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I have an automatic +1 licence to troll.
My other first post is car post.
Yes! YEES!!!! this is the best thing sence MICROWAVE POPCORN!
-zemo
Here's a good tip. You might want to consider FreeBSD. It's been stable for a long time and even run linux binaries---even better than linux kernels for that matter!
Wow, can I move to this classy neighborhood?
If you're using Linux, just use your motherboard IDE ports and do software RAID-5. I haven't actually used it myself since I don't have the other hardware, but from most things I've read software raid is faster than hardware. If it's just for a home machine, save the money and get 3 drives in a raid5, or buy all 4 drives and put them in software raid5. From everything I've read, for n drives, you get n-1 drives worth of usable space, with the rest being used for parity. So if you had (4) 200GB drives, you would have 600GB of usable space. Sounds good to me.
Does the same 134 GB limit apply to Macs? This is important to me because I'm looking to add a large capacity external drive to my iMac, so no room for an upgrade ATA controller.
-Alex
200 Gb hd, that's a little over 2.5 hours of uncompressed NTSC video. You can probably edit a short movie on one of these drives. Still, I'd like to have a 600 Gb drive to edit a 1.5 movie comfortably (3 times the space of a single one).
...
--
Others have mentioned backup problems with these large drives and joked about the number of floppies the drive equates to. Assuming my math went okay, here's a list of popular backup media and their estimated time to backup such a beast.
What these large drives mean to users is that you can't just buy one drive, as there is no feasable way to back up the entire drive. You'll need to purchase two identical drives and mirror them for backup purposes. While 200BG seems like a lot, you'll need at least 400GB in reality. You can't let all that good prOn get lost in a head crash.
Drive type
(Native capacity) (native xfer rate)
(time to fill one media)
Time to complete a full 200GB backup* (approx media cost)**
DLT-8000
40GB 6MB/s
2hrs per tape
5 tapes 10 hrs $200
DVD-R
4.7G 2.6MB/s (2x write speed)
30 mins per disk
43 disks 21 hrs $43
CD-R
700MB 3.5MB/s (~20x write speed)
20mins per disk
286 disks 4 days $45
Floppy
1.44MB 25K/s
1.5Mins per disk
138889 disks 20 weeks $13,888
*These times assume 100% efficiency. IE: That the next media will be available immediately after the preceeding one is full. I did not allow any time for insert/eject, preperation/formatting or phyisical movement of the media. You would never be able to achieve these times. Perhaps * 1.5 would be more realistic.
*For media cost, I used pricewatch and took the lowest price I could find for bulk media. In the case of floppies that was 10/$1. These costs do not reflect the price of the device to write to the media.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
I hate that drives have gotten so big but not any faster. Give me a 10gb drive that's 10x faster over a 200gb drive any day of the week.
Seriously, if they could create a 10gb drive that could transfer a hundred megs per second (realistically) and had a real world seek of 1ms for everything, I'd buy. In fact, I'd pay $500 for it. But if they sold a terabyte drive for $50, I'd pass. Why? Because 60Gb of my 80Gb drive is STILL empty and I have run out of data and software to stuff on it.
I've used several 3ware escalade cards and they are faster than my old software raid5 in everyway. Plus, they setup in their own BIOS, can use hot spares, and were seen instantly by Linux Mandrake on installation (as a scsi disk). The 4 port 6410 escalade can be found for 89MB/sec sustained in Raid5, with bursts WAY higher using WDC120's. It takes some serious U320scsi to do those numbers in the real world.
-- Whitewlf White Wolf Networks
Their drives were always whisper quiet, and very cool to the touch. The only drives I used for the longest time were Fujitsus. Then Fujitsu went out of the consumer HD business to focus on the high-end business (where the big margins are).
:-/
My 20gb Fujitsu of only a year started to not work in my PC a few weeks back, and it's been replaced by a 20gb WD. It's also quiet, and seems to be about the same speed. However, it took WD 1.5 years to catch up to Fujitsu in this respect. And it doesn't (like my Quantums) have any S.M.A.R.T. temperature sensors, even though every Fujitsu I've ever tried supported this
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
A big clarification I would like to make here is that most cheap "hardware raid" controllers are NOT hardware raid controllers. They are clever hacks to implement RAID using a combination of a bios handler for software RAID and an OS driver implementing software RAID at the driver level. That is why linux md running raid5 is often faster - the implementation is better than the device driver provides.
Now, when comparing performance to a real live IDE RAID controller (Adaptec AAA or 3Ware, etc.), it is not as fast. These controllers have an on chip implementation of RAID 5 (ie hardware XOR etc. usually implemented on an intel i960 or somesuch) and perhaps some cache memory, and they interface with the OS using the standard SCSI drive api.
Now software raid 0 or raid 1 is often just as fast as hardware raid 0 or 1 because the implementation is so simple and the drive r/w speeds are the limiting factor.
BTW: does anyone know exactly what to call things like the promise and Highpoint "Raid" controllers that rely on BIOS hooks and software drivers to do the RAID dirty work? -- "Hardware" doesnt work and "Software" doesnt work -- is there a word for it?!?
~GoRK
The page linked to in your sig really pisses me off. I don't understand how you can write such intelligent and insightful posts and also write the same old tired anti-Microsoft FUD that we see here everyday.
Perhaps because Microsoft deserves it.
Code Red was awful, yes... The reason it got so bad was because of clueless IIS admins who didn't follow security news.Absolutely. It's like driving while talking on your cellphone. You're not being a responsible Information Superhighway user, and are putting the systems of others at risk. Those people sharing the Internet with you, like those unfortunate enough to have to share a freeway with you, have every right to be angry with you.
Please don't blame Microsoft unless you can show me an open-source alernative whose history is free from security flaws.I don't expect anything to be free of security or other flaws. Millions of lines of code, one "greater than", when you meant "greater than or equal to", is all it takes to make a buffer overrun.
When "I'm Happy Joe Hubby Accountant On A Cable Modem And I Can Install Windows Without Calling A Professional" installs Windows and gets IIS by default (some configurations of Windows 2000 Professional, for example) and is running that security liability with no need and often no understanding of what he's doing, Microsoft's actions put me at risk.
No software company should be enabling network services by default. You should have to decide that you need it and be forced to manually install it. This would weed out probably 99% of the machines which attack *my* server and waste *my* bandwidth. Sure, it's not as user-friendly, but Microsoft doesn't own the Internet, and I think I have a right to be pissed off about the waste of *my* bandwidth that *their* cavalier attitude has directly caused.
Apache has them too, despite the fact that Slashdot does not publicize them as heavily as Microsoft's bugs. Let he who is without sin yadda yadda yadda.I've been subscribing to the CERT security newsletters since... oh, about 1995. In those seven years, I've seen a lot more bulletins for Windows and its services than for any other single operating system. Based on that, Microsoft's code seems to be sloppy. Why? Don't know. Some open-source stuff is disastrous, lots of closed-source stuff is excellent. The problem isn't a fundamental distribution and review model; it appears to be Microsoft.
Second, I do not deny the fact that IIS seems to have more problems, but I'm going to defend Microsoft again for a second and note that IIS 5 on Win2k includes a hell of a lot more functionality than a base Apache install.Sure! That's a great idea! Probably 5% of the people running Intranet and Internet websites on IIS will use those added features; for the rest, they're a liability - and to me too, as an Internet user victimized by the bugs inherent in more code being run.
IIS also tends to have to run with administrator rights in order to make use of this. Hack IIS, and you've rooted the box. Hack Apache, and you've got a user account with limited permissions. All to provide higher functionality by default to the 5% who will use it? I'm *so* glad that they weren't inconvenienced at the risk of security.
I know that gobs of functionality and tight system integration may offend your delicate Linux-asshole sensibilities, but there are millions of people who find them to be benefits of Microsoft's application platform.I agree. In fact, that's why I'm running Windows 2000 at the moment. It's still better as a desktop than anything under Linux. But for a server, it's negligent. Microsoft's philosophy still isn't sufficiently paranoid for their machines to be safe on a routable IP address.
I'm not trying to excuse security flaws, but I believe that one reason why IIS has had a greater densitity of incidents than Apache is because of the incredible pace at which Microsoft develops new technology. (And their customers like that.)I didn't pay for someone else's copy of IIS to be attacking my machine. I don't like that.
One of biggest failures of quality control, in any industry, occurs when the marketing department gets ahead of engineering.
Want to fly in a 747 that was built with developments at the "incredible pace" Microsoft accomplishes, or do you prefer Boeing's current model, one that is more conservative, refusing to release products until they're unlikely to get you killed? How would you feel if Boeing switched to The Microsoft Incredible Pace method and their planes were consistently crashing on your house, even though you've never bought a 747 on your American Express, and are therefore not their customer but are being very much affected by their flaws?
If you can't accept the fact that there are people with different -- not better or worse, just different -- opinions than yours, then you're no better than that dipshit Rob Malda.I don't know Rob, so I can't comment on him.
What I can say, though, is that you have yet to demonstrate that your opinion is even remotely technically on par with mine. Therefore, your opinion is, I'm sorry to say it, worse than mine. If your arguments weren't ill-considered and ill-guided, you would succeed in causing me to change my mind.
But you haven't, and therefore you remain wrong.
Third, and most importantly, IIS is used by a hell of a lot more people than Apache.Really? www.netcraft.com
Many of these people are not qualified to administrate an HTTP server, but we'll discuss that in a second."NEW FROM BOEING! A 747 SO EASY TO FLY, EVEN YOUR GRANDMOTHER CAN DO IT! WHILE TALKING ON A CELLPHONE! SEATS 400! PILOT'S LICENSE NOT REQUIRED AND YOU CAN RENT THIS AIRPLANE AT ANY THRIFTY'S AIRPLANE RENTAL!"
Is that a good idea, or would you be building underground too?
Before that, I want to remind you that Microsoft has always tried to keep these kind of people from running a web server without knowing it. WinNT4 Workstation does not come with IIS, and Win2k Pro does not install it by default.Hmmm... Windows 2000 Pro full install? That's interesting, I could swear that it did.
Even if not, you know that during installation, many people will choose Custom Install and manually click literally every single checkbox, without understanding what they're doing. Next time you're reinstalling Windows, why don't you go upstairs, get your dad out of his living room chair, invite him downstairs to your basement suite, and watch him follow the on-screen instructions.
The only potentially problematic situation is when a user upgrades from Win98 with Personal Web Server installed to Win2k Pro -- then IIS is automatically installed as a replacement. But even in that case, the user had to have known enough to install PWS on Win98.See my last reply.
As I was saying, the real reason that IIS is installed on so many machines is that Windows is popular. And the IIS graphical interface is much simpler for users who don't have time to learn the details of HTTP server administration."YOU TOO CAN FLY THIS 747, ALL WITHOUT HAVING TO LEARN HOW TO DRIVE A STICKSHIFT AUTOMOBILE, MUCH LESS LEARN HOW TO CALCULATE WIND SHEAR VECTORS!"
Two weeks later: "House for sale. 38 bedroom mansion, all the amenities. Only $44,000. (Right at the end of a runway)"
Yes, there is a good argument that such users shouldn't be running servers, but are you going to stop them? Who are you to decide who can and cannot run a web server?An Internet user who is incurring costs directly due to Microsoft putting chainsaws into the hands of high school children.
you can blame Microsoft for being bother popular and easy to use, you're nothing but an elitist who is bitter that what you once considered technical work can now be accomplished by "mere" businesspeople.Nope; if they weren't polluting and endangering the Internet though their tactics and incompetence, I'd salute Microsoft for being a very important part of getting web publishing into the hands of the masses.
And Mopar, when will you tire of your childish anti-IIS rants?I tired of them long ago. But the problem still isn't gone, so I will continue to be a voice until the problem is gone. It's called "advocacy". Unfortunately, it does take time. You know, like baking a potato before microwave ovens became popular. (You do know about that, right? Before we had microwave ovens, we had to actually wait 45 minutes to bake a potato well. Or, are you too young to know about patience? Ever downloaded a megabyte of Fidonet mail at 2400 baud? No? Then you won't understand the patience advocacy often requires.)
I have plenty of complaints about pro-Microsoft bigots, but at least they have a sense of perspective. I don't hear Bill Gates blasting UNIX because of the original Internet worm, do I?Probably for the same reason that Hyundai wouldn't dare to make fun of Mercedes because their first car had wooden wheels.
Are anti-Microsoft bigots really so starved for factual arguments that they will beat a dead horse until it is pulp and bones?Nope. IIS is my particular horse, and, while I keep on putting potassium cyanide into its feed trough, it still hasn't died yet.
I'm trying to do you a favor. Try to look at that IIS page with an objective eye. The logfile itself isn't the problem; it's your sneering, condescending attitude.I feel a right to be every bit as condescending in that page as I am with you right now.
Why's that? I get the occasional e-mail from people telling me that they followed my instructions and their computer stopped working. Apparently, I'm not condescending enough.
Besides, I own the domain name. I own the hardware it's running on, and I pay for the electricity and bandwidth it consumes. I believe, within the rules of slander, I am entitled to freedom of speech; therefore, I can say what I want. Don't like it? Go away. I don't care. I don't like children.
If your Linux/Apache platform were perfect, such arrogance might be justified, but it is not.When you sit in your grade 11 math class, do you feel justified in sneering when you've worked hard to do your homework, and get a 95%, but the guy who sits behind you and always pokes you with a pen because he's bored, gets a 52%?
It's just a different choice. There are advantages and disadvantages to all systems. That's why even though I run my personal website on the same Linux/Apache combination as yours, I don't look down on Windows or IIS as a platform.Really? Which of the Linux/Apache advantages made you choose that over Windows? It must have been really great for you to spend all that time learning about icky text files.
You're making yourself look stupid, and whatever truth there is in your open-source advocacy is lost when you promote open-source in such a disgusting manner.I would be well not to have my webserver attacked constantly by misconfigured machines outside of my control. Maybe if that happened, my attitude would change.
I suspect that most visitors to my website will see my open disgust and contempt for Microsoft's waste of my bandwidth; those who are too simple to understand it are unlikely to convert to the "complexities" of *NIX. ("What do you mean, there's no C drive! That's preposterous, do I look like I was born yesterday?")
You would do well to study the former Representative Traficant's case -- you both have poor attitudes that make it difficult for an audience to listen to your message.I think my message came through loud and clear. Judging from the number of people who bookmark it (favicon.ico, and grepping out Konqueror users which retrieve the icon by default), lots of users seem to have enjoyed the presentation enough to want to see it again.
Now, then... I found your post very Interesting and Informative. If I weren't a member of the Troll underclass, I would mod you up. Instead, I've crafted this post in the hope that it will make you think, and perhaps even improve your technical advocacy.Well, you're right about being a troll, anyway. And, besides consuming oxygen, I think the only other thing we have in common is a fondness for writing.
You may email me at trolltuesday@yahoo.com if you have any comments.I'll pass. If you want to read this, you're welcome to come back and read it. Otherwise, my reply shall remain such that you may be mocked in a public forum and this post may be spidered by search engines. The keywords "microsoft", "irresponsible" and "security" are repeated often enough and close enough together that a Google search for those words should find this tome pretty well.
You see, that's advocacy. Slow, tedious, and effective.
Oh yeah, I post at +2. Cleaning out your smegma on a daily basis might increase your IQ sufficiently for you to share that honor.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I still remember using TBUG to write assembly programs for a TRS-80 and having to reboot and reload TBUG from a cassette tape when the program would hang. Anyone remember the animated bunny rabbits?
My school also had an obscure HP minicomputer that had an eight or nine inch black and white CRT and a cassette tape interface.
Those definitely were not the days!
I also remember doing some punchcard jobs at the local university during some summer classes and flirting with the undergrad who was accepting the cards for the batch jobs.
Ahhh youth!
Hmmm.. I had a similar issue at an apt. I was at, drunk people kept banging on the back door so I finally stuck a camera up. Then I captured video of drunk people banging on the door at 2am looking for friends.. hmm... I wish I had thought of how un-useful that footage was before going through the effort of hanging a camera in my back window.
oh well
BigBlockMopar, a Chrysler man I see. Well I might be able to fill this in a bit. Back when I was working in heavy manufactureing, we used alot of liquid bearings and such. Before the pre-start and early startup of the motors, a micro-oil pump would pump some oil into the sleves. I mean, small the pumps we used were itty itty bitty. Probbly 2" long, and 1/4" in diamiter. It would surpise me that they use something similar for a pre-start application.
The other thing is, once you get the drive spinning, you no longer need to use this pump. Since you can build a micro-pump into the base of the spindle to draw the oil up and into the bearing.
Now, the other thing I can see is a "dry start" since the drives are spinning at 5400-10000RPM the ammount of time that the drive takes to bring the pressure up in the pump, and the ammount of cold ware you get from start up, since most people use their computer every day, I can see this being a possible idea.
The last and best idea is called a centrifugal oil reserve. Where the oil is stored in a center chamber and when the drive powers up the oil is almost immediatly sloshed from the center to the outside, resulting in a very low chance of dry starts. It's cheap, inexpensive and very common on side mount high speed, high load bearings in machines.
Om, nomnomnom...
Damn good post, sir.
I'm only able to use some of my Photoshop work as a reference; I once made an image something like 2400x1800 and it was about 60MB.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
For more information on how bearings work, and wear in general, do a search on the field of "tribology". It's all there.
BTW: does anyone know exactly what to call things like the promise and Highpoint "Raid" controllers that rely on BIOS hooks and software drivers to do the RAID dirty work? -- "Hardware" doesnt work and "Software" doesnt work -- is there a word for it?!?
Jelloware, sludgeware, pillowy-brick-ware.
I think firmware sounds about right.
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
I wish they'd offer a bulk version without the "free" IDE controller on their website. $400 for the drive seems high now that you can buy 80 GB for around $110...
Well, I'm going to save all my life in that HD. and my sons lifes, and the wife's life, and the son of my sons lifes. (Well, when my sons born, and I get married, of course.)
Correction.
:P
(any true get gets pissed when someone breaks their concentration)
Should read
(any true geek gets pissed when someone breaks their concentration)
I write my flow without spelling or punctuation, maybe CowboyNeal can check it for me
--toq
The one thing most people fail to consider is the possibility of incramental backups.
/-/4xx04z where tapes will. Additionally, a proper backup procedure should also include a monthly backup to be taken off site in case of a fire, flood, act of god, or act of pissed off ex employee who is owed a lot of money by ex employer (you hear me, you bastards? [yes, I'm joking. Don't sue me.] ; )
Consider that on a 200gigabyte drive, it's improbable that there will be more than a couple gigs of new content in any given week (even if you're a major porn hound.)
2 gigabytes worth of data is plenty small to do incramental archives nightly on a tape drive.
With that said, you're right... A second hard disk is far more efficent for the needs of the average consumer.
Most IT industries use tape drives as well as RAID arrays simply because it creates a sort history of the data on the drive. Where RAID won't protect you from stupid user errors and 1e3+
People seem to forget that tapes are generally an enterprise solution... Not somthing intended for the desktop.
The IDE standard allows for up to 40% on-disk errors before the low-level (factory) format. 60 GB x four platters = 240GB, 16.6% standardised on-disk errors, with the rest being sold as smaller drives or binned, and you have your 200GB drive.
With the four 60GB platters drives it obviously isn't worth assuming less than 16.6% errors currently, presumably because 10% errors disks don't give them enough volume to make a viable sales line yet. Watch out for a 224GB model later, if they've been putting the 10%'s aside for a later release.
The use of liquid disk bearings and the subsequent discussion about drive noise bring to mind a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. I've noticed that my drive (20GB unbranded, 4GB ext3 partition, 16GB FAT32 partition) under Linux makes much more noise than it does under Windows2000. A couple of years back when I first got Linux installed (SuSE5,2) on a different drive in a different machine, I noticed that the drive made less noise under linux than it did under Win95. Has anyone else noticed anything similar? Is there a reason for this? Should I be using a different format (Reiser, XFS or whatever)?
scamware ?
I know lots of zealots buying this crap just to came crying later about how it's impossible to transfer volumes, make it work in Linux etc etc.
Go with 3ware or software. You'll love the flexibility of software raid.
When I tried software raid5 the performance was pretty terrible. Software raid1 adds pretty much no overhead though, so that's certainally an option to consider..
Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
Did WD finally learn not to screw with DMA? Does thier hardware still require a workaround to make sure data doesn't get occasionally lost?
You obviously don't play games.
A Game Boy Advance emulator takes 300 KB. The driver for my Visoly GBA cart reader takes 300 KB. Golden Sun takes 8 MB. Mario Kart Super Circuit takes 4 MB. Tetanus On Drugs takes 160 KB. Who needs a 200 GB drive just to play games?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Microsoft after hearing about western digital's announcement of a 200 GB drive decided to finally release the much anticipated Office 2002 with Drive Morph. No longer do you have to deal with empty sectors on your hard drive, Office 2002 with drive morph will fill the drive you install it on...
no more 1.6 GB office installations for me 8)
The really dedicated ones can siphon more than 2 gigs of porn a *day*.. there's always sets to complete and fills to look for. A 200 gig drive becomes a playground and then a serious albatross - gotta stop and burn all that off to CD at some point to make room for more, after all.
(incremental)
I hate to say it, but Western Digital makes the shittiest drives out there. Without fail, they've been the most unreliable, shortest lived drives that I've ever used throughout my life. I wouldn't trust a Western Digital to save old Nigerian spam. They're junk. They're cheap as hell, but you get what you pay for, and when it comes to hard drives, I'm willing to pay extra.
Saying that WD has a 200 GB hard drive is like saying that Ford came out with a 400 HP Mustang. Who cares? Slap a big engine in a piece of shit, and all you've got is a piece of shit with a big engine.
Granted, XP is HUGE....
But Linux is bloated as can be nowadays.
My last Suse came on 8 CDs or 1 DVD, and RedHat recommends like 2.5GB of space.......ugh
That WD drives suck ass. I wouldn't trust it enough to put 200gigs of my data on. WD would only replace the drive and say to hell with your 200gigs of lost data. No thanks.
What's the seek time on one of theses? ged68
I just wish damn HD companies would advertise a gig as a gig. :\
No more of thise 1,000,000,000 byte crap.
I want 2^30 damnit! Since these bigguns will only format to ~ 186 GB minus filesystem overhead of course...
(and that my friend, is 3 x 60 GB platter... since these little harddrive guys can't keep their stats straight...)
I give up... where do i sign up to become a stuntman? I'd rather jump off a building for a living than work with computers...
It's just Crap.
Just buy two? Or is that too easy?
What about when lightning fries your whole machine - both drives? Or what about if you accidently erase an important file and you don't notice in time to recover it (assuming that's possible.) Offsite tape backups would address both of these problems.
I agree with you that drives this size are scary, mostly because there is no affordable way to make tape backups of them. I decided a while back that one should only purchase as much space as they can actually backup, but that isn't going to even be possible for much longer - soon 60G will be the bottom end!
Not any more. You just made it 10. Silly Macintosh. Unix is for real computers.
I'm thinking of just what I could do with that kind of space. My mobo will handle 8 IDE devices which equates to 1.6TB of space.... yummy...
a cross between a lizard, a borg, and spongebob squarepants?
Technoli
Sorry if this is redundant, but frankly who cares about bigger hard drives? Is this really news?
Bigger hard drives come out constantly, and yet we continue to find ways to fill them up within a couple of months.
If someone had asked me 10 years ago whether we'd still be using hard drives with magnetic media and lots of moving parts in 2002, I'd have said "no way". About the only major progress we've made is in capacity, and we've made slight improvements in speed, while bringing cost down a bit. But we still have all the drawbacks of 10 years ago.
Where is all the innovation in mass-storage?
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because for some reason anonymizer doesn't work.
7/26/2002
:)
Size Price Qty Raid5Size TotalCost Cost/GB
80 $108.00 4 240 $432.00 $1.80
120 $145.00 4 360 $580.00 $1.61
160 $225.00 4 480 $900.00 $1.88
in the future
120 $108.00 4 360 $432.00 $1.20
160 $145.00 4 480 $580.00 $1.21
200 $225.00 4 600 $900.00 $1.50
in the far future
160 $108.00 4 480 $432.00 $0.90
200 $145.00 4 600 $580.00 $0.97
240 $225.00 4 720 $900.00 $1.25
in the far, far future
200 $108.00 4 600 $432.00 $0.72
240 $145.00 4 720 $580.00 $0.81
280 $225.00 4 840 $900.00 $1.07
The first set of prices are from NewEgg.com for Maxtor drives. I thought I'd analyze/extrapolate on the cost of the drives today/future when setting up a linux software RAID 5 system using 4 drives for a multimedia (divx,mp3) file server when I'm rich.
The L sounds like a chipmunk nibbling on a twig, while the J would be a chipmunk munching on a twig.
Hope that clears up the confusion
Suddenly I feel hungry for some twigs.
I just wanted to add a counterpoint. I've found the Linux software raid5 "performance" to be quite adequate.
*shrug*
As my father lik@(munch munch)...
Also bear in mind that there are oil additives such as TPP (triphenylphosphate) and TCP (tricresylphosphate) which are slippery as hell and stick to metal surfaces even when the carrier oil has drained back down into whatever reservoir holds it when the machine isn't running. This helps greatly to reduce or even eliminate bearing scuffing due to dry starts. A tiny bearing in a disk drive probably stays submerged in its oil anyway so dry starts are not an issue.
Affordable drives have far exceeded affordable backup capability. RAID 5 is great, but not enough. A couple of weeks ago I asked my XP system to go on 'standby', the first time I'd done that. It proceeded to wipe out the RAID array information from not 1 but 2 disks on my Promise SX6000 controller. The array was unrecoverable :-(.
is this informative, thoughtful, insightful post only modded a paltry 2, while a post that says (full text) "Is it Maxtor or WD I'm just a little confused" is modded 4? At least keep up the pretense that substance matters more than quick empty retorts and lame humor at Slashdot.
(Repost-old one was snipped by tags)
I've used several 3ware escalade cards and they are faster than my old software raid5 in everyway. Plus, they setup in their own BIOS, can use hot spares, and were seen instantly by Linux Mandrake on installation (as a scsi disk). The 4 port 6410 escalade can be found for under 85$ as well.
My 64bit/66Mhz escalade pushes over 89MB/sec sustained in Raid5, with bursts WAY higher using WDC120's. It takes some serious U320scsi to do those numbers in the real world.
-- Whitewlf White Wolf Networks
They're probably using Windows and thier server ran out of disk space for the swap files.
Sigs are bad for your health.
Correction: 4 yottaquads. Where did you get your mis-information? You obviously didn't attend the Academy. Oh well, gotta go remodulate something. Or better yet, tell the Borg in Astrometrics that it's Fat Tuesday. Where are the damned beads?
"Is it a conspiracy to make a few people pay 3X for SCSI?"
People often complain that SCSI costs 3X more than ATA, when the HDA (Hard Disk Assembly) is often the same in both. "Why does SCSI cost so much more?" they ask.
That is the wrong question. They should instead ask, "Why does ATA cost so much less?"
The minimum quality level you see with ATA is significantly lower than for SCSI. You can find some really crappy ATA parts out there, and you can find vendors to sell them, and people to buy them. The least-effort engineering that ATA gets is why you can buy a 100 GB hard disk for a buck or whatever. They simply do not put a lot of engineering into a product that cheap.
Now, compare that to the market SCSI gets used in. You are not going to build a $10,000 workstation or server and then put a crap hard disk in it. About the only place SCSI gets used is in that kind of high-end equipment, so the demand is for well-engineered SCSI products. Anyone pushing the kind of crap that ATA is would be laughed at.
So, in the end, you get what you pay for.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
...but from most things I've read software raid is faster than hardware.
I'm not sure where this information would have come from. Perhaps there are crappy hardware controllers out there, or the benchmark systems were otherwise lightly loaded.
For example, if the test machine had a 1GHz CPU but the RAID card had some clunky 50MHz mini-CPU, the software RAID could perform much much better. However, as that system incurs heavier processing load, having a co-processor on the RAID card can really make a difference by guaranteeing some level of disk throughput (even if the main CPU is maxed out).
There are reasons why really expensive RAID arrays have embedded CPUs and RAM. They allow the server CPUs to work at their full potential. On a regular home computer, however, I guess the real advantage of hardware RAID is debatable.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
"does anyone know exactly what to call things like the promise and Highpoint "Raid" controllers that rely on BIOS hooks and software drivers to do the RAID dirty work?"
Junk?
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
You guys with these high-tech pasts. I remember when I first used a computer back in 1975. We used paper tape on our TTY33 terminals. Connected to the HP2000C' via acoustic coupler and a dial phone (no pushbuttons for us). 300 baud.
Igor
I've come to the conclusion that pretty much all IDE drives currently being sold suck.
I have had zero problems with our IBM SCSI drives.
Right on.
MiniDV format clocks in at nearly 13 GB per hour.
backup media consistently lags
I've got about 0.3 TB of disk space at home between my 2 TiVo's. They have more disk space than my two computers do. They never get backed up, either, because there's nothing to back them up to. They're their own archive.
Video is driving desire for
- low noise
- high capacity
- random access (linear tape sux!)
- high reliability (no backup, remember!)
and what I see coming (while last mile service is still unacceptably slow) are home NAS systems connected via 802.11b to TiVo-looking consumer electronic devices and to wireless tablets just for watching shows.If I were a disk manufacturer, I'd goad the consumer video recording technology to shift into higher gear (come out with TiVo's with built-in 802.11b and a NAS repackaged as a "VideoArchive") and be ready with all the pieces to satisfy this market.
[I've got a Mini-DV recorder, too, but haven't worked up the courage yet to figure out which IEEE-1394 card to buy for my Linux box and how to get it to work.]
"Provided by the management for your protection."
see the web site of the kookoo CoCo High Priest. The best link on that page is about an innovative 4 MHz acceleration project they are putting together. I'm not kidding.
We had one in the TI world. The TI-99/4A had a TMS 9900 16-bit processor (in *1979*, boys and girls), but back then, memory was super-expensive. The ROM, video processor and TMS9901 coontroller were on the 16 bit bus, everything else was on a kludged together 8-bit bus... including the RAM.
A popular TI hack was to solder 8 bit static RAMs piggybacked over the 2x8bit ROMs which resided on the 16 bit bus. A little address decode logic (piggyback some 74xx chips onto some other ICs, and a little point to point wiring) and you had a TI-99/4A with full 16-bit memory. Instant speed increase of over 40%. And because of the bus bottleneck and the *really slow* doubly-interpreted BASIC, those machines desperately needed speed upgrades. Running object code instead of BASIC, on a TI with that upgrade, was lightning fast.
And I thought that was an impressive TI hack until I saw this. My God, that looks like a bank of 72 pin SIMMs in a TRS-80.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Young SWM seeking solution to ponogrophy archival issues? : )
Still, there's enough room on a 1GB DAT for a weekly incremental.
Thanks for the spelling correction, by the way. Me inglish not soo good, which is sad because I'm actually a native english speaker. -_-; I blame fatigue, and cheating on all the spelling assignments in grade school.
With your mention of WD 40:
If it's supposed to move and won't, use WD 40.
If it's not supposed to move and does, use duct tape.
Junk?
the problem is getting the point across to the misinformed/ brainwashed masses when you try to explain to them why those devices really are NOT true raid.. "but it says so on the box"... Especially when in a specification quote you list "hardware RAID recommended" and they think that one of those cards would do the job and balk at the price of a real raid card.
What is unfortunate is that other manufacturers have caught on and use the same tactics to sell their hardware as well... like USR advertising 802.11b at 22mb when the only way to do that is using their cards with their modified software... or my current pet peeve... the PCI standard. boards that say they use PCI2.2 are NOT backwards compatible with PCI2.1; when getting a new card, check for SPECIFIC compatibiliy [ie: if it says it works in PCI2.2, then that may not necessaryily mean it would work in a PCI2.1 mb, and vice versa... but anyways... this is going a little offtopic... so to bring it back on topic.... Hard drive sizes that are reaching/exceeding the 200gb range are still doorstops that used to hold gb of data if it crashes and there are no backups..
For me, I would only use such a drive as a "live virual CD jukebox" for my frequently used ISOs...
--
Time is on my side
I've only purchased Maxtor drives, so by "personal use comparison" I have nothing to base this on,
But I do have to say this:
My Maxtor drives have never taken a crap on me. But about 2 weeks ago I was at my local computer hardware store and happened to walk past a Western Digital drive on the shelf. The WD drive proceeded to pull down it's box and take a huge duker right on my shoe. It then made love to itself and smoked a cigarette. I was so pissed I punched my mom right in the face.
Not that it really matters, but I would like to know the actually size in bytes of a drive that they are selling me, and in mb (where 1mb == 1024kb, 1kb == 1024 bytes, not 1 == 1000)
Would it really be much trouble for them to say 198 gb hard drive? I remember when they used to sell 40mb hard drives, and say they were 40mb, and if it was off by 2gb in size, people would have been pissed (or really happy).
People used to get accuraccy, for sizes, and speeds, but now it's all so fluffy
Tibbon
tibbon.com