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David Brin on "Attack of the Clones"
dpt writes "Science fiction author and scientist David Brin caused quite a stir at the time with his article on The Phantom Menace, and now here are his thoughts on Episode II. Not being as harsh, it hasn't received much attention, but it's an interesting read anyway."
I like this guy's work. I only heard about him because he spoke at the Libertarian National Convention this year.
Anyone have any suggestions for the next book to pick up of his?
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
(Posted AC to avoid k-whore)
..." Oh, really? As in "Dune"? Or in "The Matrix"? Or in "Lord of the Rings"? Or "A New Hope" (the original 1977 "Star Wars" movie)? Or ... make your own list. It will stretch for light years.
What's wrong (and right)
with "The Phantom Menace"
A science-fiction author scours the new "Star Wars"
film for signs of intelligent life.
Editor's Note:Be warned that the following article contains
"spoilers" -- plot points and other details about "The Phantom Menace" that you may wish to avoid if you haven't seen the movie yet and plan to do so.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By David Brin
June 15, 1999 | First off, let me say that I think the film looks gorgeous. George Lucas was able to hire the best. He took advantage of advances in computer graphics to portray many old sci-fi favorites in vivid ways. The costumes are just spiffy, the sword fight scenes zesty. Great aliens, too (except for Yoda, who's still a rubber oven mitt with two facial expressions: patronizing and condescending).
The part that I found the most interesting was when the princess gave the young darth vader the ass.
On the first date, even. She didn't even smoke weed or anything to endure the pain, she just took that
huge vader cock like it was make of solid crack cocaine, to quote Too Short.
I actually quite enjoyed the first part of the film -- Jedis running around on the Trade Federation mother ship, jumping and slashing, leaping and blasting. My hopes started to rise. But then -- well, let me list just a few items:
Clichés
Also Today
"Star Wars" despots vs. "Star Trek" populists
Why is George Lucas peddling an elitist, anti- democratic agenda under the guise of escapist fun?
Underwater cities? A city that covers a
whole planet? Where've we seen those before? Well, they may be clichés, but Lucas stole them fair and square, and served them back with loads of panache, so he's forgiven. On the other hand, there are other clichés that make you moan aloud. For example:
"Hey, you guys, don't you mess with me because my mom is the Virgin Mary! (At least that's what she told her folks when she came home pregnant one day.) I guess you know what that makes ME, so everybody drop down and give me 20!"
"I think maybe he is the CHOSEN ONE
"He is too old to train to be a Jedi." -- Uh, Yoda? You say 6 is too old, but Luke Skywalker will be a doable fixer-upper at 20? When do you recruit novices -- ripping them from the breast, like the Psi Corps in "Babylon 5"? Does the Jedi Way require complete denial of normal childhood? An odd message for a kid flick!
"Oh no! There's an unstoppable robot army! Of course all we have to do is pull a master switch and they'll all shut off!"
This recalls blowing up the shield projector in "Return of the Jedi" (which is achieved entirely thanks to the wookie -- neither Luke nor Leia makes any real difference in achieving the Rebel victory. Think about it!). Or a computer virus shutting down all alien shields in "Independence Day." Or Obi-Wan dialing down the tractor beam. Or the hero in "Logan's Run" shooting one computer console and blowing up a city. And so on. Yeesh! Are villain equipment- designers really that bad in every off-Earth empire? In fairness, this cliché is endemic. Ever notice how, in "Star Trek," Kirk talked five different super-computers into self-destructing? If the universe really is like this, we Earthlings are gonna kick butt when we get out there!
A good machine is one that has to be hammered into turning on for you (e.g. Anakin's speed-pod, his space fighter, the Millennium Falcon, C-3PO and so on). If it starts right up, it must be evil.
Some might view the pod race as a rip-off copy of the speeder bike scene in "Return of the Jedi." Actually, I found the charioteer imagery charming. Hey, a swooping chase scene past scary obstacles is always a good thing to throw into a whiz-bang sci-fi flick! Nevertheless, having a 6-year-old slave toss together a better pod than all the galaxy's technicians can create? (Those Tatooine slave schools must have a great curriculum!) Couldn't he have had help from an old but great engineer who retired to Tatooine for his health? That cliché would have lent plausibility.
Big animals try to eat whole spaceships, yum. Where've we seen that before?
An apprentice Jedi -- watching helplessly as his beloved master is slain in a sword fight by a Sith Lord -- screams, "No!" Where've we seen that before? (Incidentally, the angry apprentice succeeds where his calm master failed -- just as Luke Skywalker does better angry than when he was composed, in "Return of the Jedi." So much for Yoda's sage advice!)
Those who can't do, bitch.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
... with the new star wars films is nostalgia. We look back on the original three films with rose-tinted glasses, when really the dialogue sucked, the plots were generic, and acting not up to scratch. :-)
The only new crime of the new trilogy is the over-reliance on CGI.
PS this isnt a troll I actually love Star Wars
<fnord>OBEY</fnord>
...regarding these so-called "critics". While I don't agree with everything it says, it certainly makes a lot more sense than anything Brin wrote for Salon:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16739/94442
But enough wallowing in small stuff. Let's get down to the Grand Champion cliché of all:
... (yawn) ... is something ... I've ... never ... (snore) ...
... and only those demigods Yoda likes. (Maybe this really is Clue No. 3?)
"Gee whillikers, R2, the folks out there sure are in a pickle. What's that, girl? Solve the whole plot by diving my tiny ship into the center of a big bad-ass one, and set off a chain reaction to blow it up from the inside while we run away real fast? What an idea! Gee, I'll bet THAT'S never been done before!"
Note that the only "Star Wars" movie without this dreadfully clichéd trick is "The Empire Strikes Back," again showing how that movie towers over the others. Actually, I guess "Phantom Menace" is logically the first time the stunt gets used, since it's the "earliest" of the movies, so let's be forgiving. But then, if Anakin did this as a boy, don't you figure he'd remember the nasty little design flaw, 40 years later, when he helps Tarkin and the Emperor build the Death Star? (This may be Clue No. 1 to a great underlying plot secret, one potentially capable of transforming the whole series! A fantastic surprise that'd actually make sense of the whole saga! Care to guess?)
Originalities
I confess there was one really original thing in "The Phantom Menace," something I have truly never seen before. I could not believe my eyes when I read the yellow prologue letters flowing across the screen at the very beginning of the film: A sci-fi action movie whose premise is based on taxation of trade routes and negotiations over tariff treaties? Now that
Self-indulgences
It happens time and again. You create a beloved universe -- then spend most of the sequels wallowing in emotional reunions, or worse, spend most of the prequel introducing characters to each other, dwelling on each moment for long stretches laden with emotional music. R2, meet Threepio! (For the very first time!) Obi-Wan, meet Anakin! Anakin grew up with Greedo! Naturally, there are cameos by Tuskan Raiders and Jabba the Hut and every other old friend, for nostalgia's sake. Anyone notice the delegation of Spielberg's "ET" aliens in the Senate chamber, uncharacteristically willing to associate with humans for a change?
And there's more! Anyone notice the names of the other candidates for Chancellor? Minister Antilles of Alderan? Maybe the dad of Captain Antilles, the first dude Vader crushes to death in the first movie? Cousin of Luke's wingman, Wedge Antilles? Could it be a coincidence? Destiny? (Or maybe Clue No. 2?)
Again, to be fair, the nostalgia thing has been done even worse by others. Remember "Star Trek, The Motion Picture"? Wasted half an hour worshipping the Enterprise from the outside before we even got aboard. Get on with it!
Illogicalities
"We won't train young Skywalker 'cause he might turn dangerous." So instead of assigning the most experienced teachers to keep an eye on him, and train him to be a good guy, you'd just toss him and his mega-force talent out on the street? Or else, under duress, you'll finally agree to let a recent novice (Obi-Wan) deal naively with the menace on his own? Great idea! Of course this terrible decision leads to catastrophe, so it's all Yoda's fault from the very beginning. (Or is it another clue?)
According to Stefan Jones, "In the first film, the Force was a kind of martial art/Zen archery kind of thing. Rather egalitarian: Obi-Wan even offers to teach scoffer Han Solo the ropes. Goofy comic-book mysticism, but kind of charming and innocent in a Hong Kong kung-fu movie sort of way."
But as the Übermensch effect took over, the Force grew elitist. You had to be born with it! In a progressive universe, Yoda & Co. would set up Jedi-arts studios in every mini-mall on Coruscant -- the way karate has saturated suburban America -- giving millions of kids exposure to a little discipline and fun, plus a chance to better themselves through hard work, and maybe outperform what cynical grownups expected of them. But Yoda thinks he can diagnose at age 6 who's got it, who hasn't, and who is pre-destined to fail before they try. Only demigods need apply
Too bad we had to leave the Virgin Mary -- I mean Mom -- on Tatooine (presumably to give birth to Uncle Owen). But once the queen and Obi-Wan get away to Coruscant, can't they access their Galactic Express accounts and buy mom's freedom out of petty cash? I guess they forgot. Some heroes.
We Jedi protect the innocent! So let's take a 6- year-old along on a raid into the enemy's heavily defended HQ! (Then tell him to hide in a fighter cockpit "for safety.")
Vader grew up on Tatooine, yet he finds the place unremarkable 40 years later in "A New Hope." In the same film he senses nothing unusual about C-3PO, his beloved first-born droid. (Or his own daughter, for that matter!) In any event, this coincidence makes Tatooine the last place anyone would hide Vader's newborn son -- Luke -- 20 years hence!
Naturally, this hustling of babies will wind up being the major subplot of Episode III -- which ought to be a real bummer of a movie: Coruscant and a zillion other planets are gonna have to fry as the emperor takes over, since that would only happen over the dead bodies of every decent citizen with any spirit. What a lovely way to finish the saga! But we'll still cheer as Obi-Wan manages to grab the twins, Luke and Leia, saving them from Dad's evil clutches as billions perish behind them. Hurrah!
I mean, shouldnt a critique of the movie be out, say, within a month or two of the movie being released??
From Time magazine, as quoted in the Brin piece:
Cheers
-b
Cheats and unexplained plot drivers
... will anyone please explain why the Sith Lord and Trade Federation risk everything to capture a teeny periphery planet? Can we have a clue why Naboo was important -- any hint at all? Hello?
... or maybe a dramatic layered, two-tone effect. Anyway, a hint about Liam's temptation could explain a lot.)
Hey, I put up with all those underwater fishes chasing a blaster-equipped ship because I thought we were gonna get a trip "through the planet's core!" Why mention it, if you're not gonna show it?
Uh
If the queen can drum up so much Senate support that she's able to fire the good chancellor, wouldn't someone lend her a few fast ships with cameras, to broadcast atrocities going on back on Naboo?
Also Today
"Star Wars" despots vs. "Star Trek" populists
Why is George Lucas peddling an elitist, anti- democratic agenda under the guise of escapist fun?
The Republic has no police
force? No news media to verify the queen's story? No big planets who are sick of the Trade Federation and hankering to pounce on the federation's big mistake? No commercial competitors of the Trade Federation, eager to do likewise in hopes of getting the franchise? No past victims of the Federation Robot-Army, eager for revenge? Everybody's a wimp except for two Jedis and some funky amphibian rastafarians?
Democratic institutions are always foolish or useless in "Star Wars." Even the Jedi High Council is blamed by Yoda for voting to allow Anakin to be admitted for training, over Yoda's "wise" objections. Only impulsive commands by anointed leaders have any validity in the Lucasian Universe.
Worst of all, Lucas forgets one of the chief lessons of filmmaking -- give your villains great lines! Remember "Die Hard"? "Blade Runner"? "The Empire Strikes Back"? Hell, even the lamentable "Return of the Jedi" featured a marvelously awful emperor sneering at the hero seductively (if illogically).
So what do we see in this movie? Liam Neeson (Qui-Gon Jinn) gets separated from his nemesis, Darth Maul, by a force field. The adversaries pause and glare at each other before resuming the fight. What a great time for Maul to give his side of the story -- his seething need for revenge against the Jedi! Maybe some riveting mumbledy-jumble about the Jedi having crushed and suppressed one whole side of the Force for a thousand years, thus creating awful imbalance in the universe! (Maybe Neeson even half agrees! After all, he's the one wanting to restore "balance," which presumably means bringing back enough of the Dark Side to make sort of a Zen-twilight gray
Hey, Maul's harangue wouldn't even have to make sense, so long as it told us something about the cause that little Anakin will later adopt as his own. Less than a minute of villainous rant could have packed a lot of juice into their vendetta. But no.
Pseudoscience gimmicks
Here's an idea. Let's take the energy symbiote mitochondria inside our cells and mystify them into "midichlorians" (apparently swarms of some sort of symbiotic magical fairies inside of each of us) to give a pseudo-techno gloss to Lucas' new religion. To be fair, "Star Trek" does the same damn thing all the time.
Nevertheless it brings us back to the different ways the two traditions -- "sci-fi" and science fiction -- would treat Superman. If these symbionts empart great powers to people, can't we find a way to give common folk more of them? A blithe contentment with genetic determinism is one thread this "Star Wars" universe shares with most ancient tales -- and with the Nazis.
Still, even from this Campbellian Übermensch-hero premise -- that only a genetic elite get to share in the Force -- there is a big logical problem in "The Phantom Menace." Consider: Young Anakin acts with godlike poise and heroism at every turn, yet Yoda accuses this brave kid (packed fulla midichlorians) of being too afraid to be a Jedi? Do I sense a jealous under-plot here? Like maybe old Yoda fears competition? Could he be the hidden hand? Maybe this is the true reason he'll lie to Luke, 40 years later, about his father! Certainly no other explanation for the lie is ever given. None. Not one. Ever.
(Now here's a thought. How come we never see Yoda take on an enemy with a light saber? Come on master, fire it up and battle a Sith Lord! That's a battle I'd pay to see! His secret advantage? A long time ago, oven mitts were made of asbestos!)
Could this be Clue No. 4? Maybe Anakin's conversion into Darth has a reason darker than any hinted at, so far. It sure makes more sense than Yoda being so flaming incompetent. (He can foresee the future, but can't sense something as big as "this kid's gonna someday fry planets and kill every Jedi"? How convenient.)
Forgivable stuff -- and the rest
Perhaps the biggest torrent of Internet complaining over "Episode I" concerns something that I'm inclined to overlook: the comic relief character, Jar Jar Binks. It may surprise you to learn that I'm not going to waste any time disparaging poor Jar Jar, or dwelling on hints at "Yes, Bwana" racism. I can take at face value Lucas' assurances that he meant well. Likewise, I found the Ewoks in "Return of the Jedi" to be a bit rankling, but bearable, perhaps even plausible! Hey, what's the harm? I can dial down my mental age in order to enjoy a good Flash Gordon-style sci-fi romp. Cute-dumb sidekicks ain't the real problem here, folks.
Even simpleminded heroes can be excused. For all the faults of every other lying Jedi, Luke Skywalker is a true hero throughout episodes IV-VI -- a good dude who remembers his friends and keeps his common touch. A demigod who never lies or forgets a promise. He's not very bright -- and can't act -- but he's a genuine good guy, all the way. And he gets a lot done, whenever he forgets Yoda's advice and lets himself get a little mad.
Despite all the clichés, plot inconsistencies and other criticisms I've levelled in this article, I am not suggesting that movie "sci-fi" tales need the same level of logic and character and intricacy you find in first rate science fiction. That would be asking way too much. Anyway, there's a place in this world for eye candy. Even the tsunami of schlock "Star Wars" merchandise flooding every store and mall doesn't raise my ire. Go for it, George!
If those were my sole complaints, I would not have taken the time to write all this down.
It's when a director relentlessly tries fiddling with our cultural moral compass that we should sit up and take notice. I'll trust Steven Spielberg with such power, because he's earned it. He's proved again and again that he loves this civilization -- an open society of rambunctious citizens -- that gave him so much. He's one of us, only more so.
George Lucas, on the other hand, should stick to producing simple action-adventure films -- good clean fun -- and lay off preaching. It's simply not where his gifts lie.
I'm am fully agreed with the comments made in the article. The flaws exist, some a large, some are HUGE. I am a really big Star Wars fan, and for me it simply boils down to the fact that is a classic tale of Good vs Evil. No matter how cheesey it may appear at some times (The sound of music scene sticks in my mind), I sitll thoroughly enjoy a good tale of Good vs Evil. The main reason this movie was my favorite is the fact that you get to see Yoda kick some ass and in what I believe was a realistic way for Yoda to act as a Jedi.
I admit that I was impressed with the movie, although anyone could nitpick their way through anything if they try hard enough. I was highly disappointed with Epsiode 1, but I think Lucas made up for it in Ep2. There are loopholes, but I thought the movie was generally well constructed and had the old "Star Wars" feel to it. It's made me actually look forward to Ep3, which I had imagined would be the best of the series. My biggest regret is that, to me, Episode 2 really is what Episode 1 should have been.
--Dave
This may be a bit off topic, but it's something I've been wondering for a while. Why did they call it The Phantom Menace? With all the other titles, the relation between name and events in the movie is quite obvious. In Attack of the Clones, you've got clones attacking. In episode 4-6, you've got aptly titled movies again. So what the hell did the phantom menace refer to in the first episode? I didn't see any scooby doo like phantom runing around rattling chains menacing everybody... Don't give me metaphors. Even A New Hope obviously fit the whiney farmer kid with a light sabre. What's the deal?
The name David Brin pops up on /. every few weeks, and I feel obligated to flame him every time. Now he's commenting on AoTC? Pot, meet kettle... kettle, this is pot. David Brin, like George Lucas in the newest crop of films, starts with a great idea, rolls along, tells a good story, then takes a big fat dump all over what he's written so far. Want a neat story about gravity lasers and artificial black holes? "Screw that," he saya 300 pages in, "I want exploding meat puppets and space aliens. And if that's not enough, how about an earth spirit?" And Kiln people? Don't get me started.
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
Anyone agree or disagree? I just have a high disregard for critics of anything I suppose
Why the fuck do people insist on putting "Ph.D." after everything they write? Am I supposed to respect his opinion on science fiction more because he has a doctorate in some field? Forget that shit. What if his doctorate was in sociology? I have a Ph.D., too. So what? Do I get bonus mod points if I change my login name to GuyMannDude, Ph.D.?
GMD
watch this
You couldn't write an article like that and have it linked by Slashdot.
Nobody since Kubric has had the cojones to do it right. Those big purple depth-chargey things in the planetary ring that blew everyones ear drums out? Would have sounded like a funeral home at midnight. Pet peeve; does it show?
Equine Mammals Are Considerably Smaller
Maybe george needs to go back to school and learn to write scripts like pulp fiction, fight club, american beauty, taxi driver, god father, twelve monkeys, and apocalypse now. George has done a lot, but it was good timing more than great writing.
A girlfriend of mine had a cat that would sit and watch you all day long, not moving, not reacting to anything. If you got close enough, it would try to claw your eyes out. If you escaped and could still use your eyes, you would see the cat sitting there looking at you calm and cool. That cat was evil.
Giving into anger is more about making a person evil than it is about displaying emotion. Any master is calm, cool and collected. Luke was a student, not a master. They wanted him to be an evil student, and the quick path to that is anger.
Overall, I don't think that article was any more accurate or insightful than the movie it chose to criticize. It, too, was somewhat obvious and full of factual errors. (Lucas did not direct all five movies, for example.) I'm glad he found it entertaining, though.
The biggest irony is this -- I could scribble a 3 paragraph outline that would save Lucas. It would explain every awful inconsistency/paradox in his universe.
To me, something about Brin's vehemence moves him from "critique for criticism's sake" into "personal beef with Lucas"-land. Or more likely he envies Lucas' success compared to what he considers more legitimate and well-written sci-fi (his own work?).
I don't know.
You know you're in trouble whenever anybody lists ',Ph.D.' after their name.
Or, even worse, when a 'Ph.D.' insists they be called: "Dr."
Ugh.
He has analyzed this movie way too much. Jesus, just enjoy it. Quit over analyzing it.
I think what would have really put Episode 2 over the top would have been if Count Dookoo was fighting the Dark Side. If he had seen the Sith's rise and the Jedi's incompetence, he should have moved to build an army and defeat the Sith before it took over the Senate, or at least gather enought power to form a decent resistence. Then everything mostly could have worked in the plot. Why kill Obi-wan? Because obi-wan knew where they were. Why fight the Jedi? The Jedi were being used as pawns of the Sith and had to be stopped before they caused too much damage.
Of course this is just one CS majors ramblings, but I would have liked to see that.
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
Best Slashdot Co
As each of the trrailers came out for E2, I watch them. I enjoyed them all except for trailer that made it look like a love story. That trailer made me wonder how good the movie actually would be. It turned out that the movie did not have as much "love scenes" in it as I expected. I was also surprised how Anakin were married before any "relationship" took place. That is what I would like to see in more movies.
Yes! Lucas needed to whittle the Jedi down in a tragic and colorful way. But couldn't he have shown them suffering calamity despite behaving cleverly and well? Doesn't he have peers to workshop this stuff against?
Good question but I suspect that Lucas honestly believes that he has no peers. It's unfortunate because the scripts that came out of his colaboration with Kasdan were pretty good, IMHO. Yes, I know Lucas co-wrote AOTC with someone from Indiana Jones Chronicles but I argue that this guy was just a yes-man for Lucas. Lucas really needs to team up with a good, known writer to come up with an interesting story for Episode 3. Maybe he'll come to his senses and realize that he needs some help in the script department for his final Star Wars film. We can only hope.
GMD
watch this
to be called Mr., thank you.
Thank you, I appreciate the support. Although I am not in charge of the penguinhosting site, I hope that the owner will not be upset. I thank him for posting the picture, most of all. If the blazing power of the picture, combined with an intelligent troll can inspire one person, then I feel as if my work is a success.
Penguinhosting site coordinator: I'd like to hear your thoughts.
The problems and holes in TPM could have been fixed with some quick editing and a couple of reshot scenes. It wouldn't have approached the first Star Wars, but then again very little does.
AotC was so utterly, unredeemably bad that it is unfixable. Sheesh - once glance between Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher in ESB carried more romantic tension than 30 minutes of moping between what's his name and Natalie. "Let's go to the mall Anni". As my 8 y.o. said "Yuck". How perceptive is the mind of a child.
sPh
You stop going to the theater to see obviously mediocre/generic films like this one and, moreover, you get a lot more critical of mediocre/generic films you do happen to make the mistake of seeing - you only get so many baby-sitting days....
--- What?
To be honest I was appalled. How can *anyone* truly believe this film is worthy of discussion today? The plot is as barren as an episode of Columbo, and the Battlestar Galactica audio-visuals just cap it off.
Grow up guys, it's a truly awful film...
Absolutely true. If you look at the prequels critically, as films and not as special-effects demonstrations, you see glaring holes in logic, motivation, purpose, etc. Brin ties all the problems up in three paragraphs. Absolutely astounding.
Nor did I spend two years at Evil Graduate School for an MA, two years at Evil Writer's Workshop for an MFA, and six years at Evil Graduate School for a Ph.D., but I don't go around signing my posts as:
Kelso Lundeen, M.A.,M.F.A.,Ph.D.
There's just something off-putting (and tacky) about tacking your credentials on stuff like this. I think it's an attempt by Brin to make sure folks know 'whereof he speaks', but it's annoying.
Strut your shit in your work, not in the byline for chrissake.
the problem with with aotc is george lucas lame attempt to inject emotions to the characters. the langauge came out of BAD romance novel.
And please explain, why just five minute after Obi-Wan convinces Annikin that he must abandon Padme to "do his duty", does Yoda abandon his duty to the Republic in order to save two useless Jedi?
sPh
Next movie will surely have a Chicano low rider caricature help Obi-Wan
make his escape with the twins.
Anyone know if Cheech and Chong are free?
So you're all saying there have been more than 3 Star Wars movies???
Lots of children stuff like Ewoks and what not, eh?
Hmmmm. Leave the planet for a decade and all sorts of new shit happens.
He's, basically, an artist (maybe not a good one, but an artist nonetheless). He likes to make movies and he likes to control every aspect of his movies (he was originally into editing, but switched to directing because he wanted more control).
He's made a whole lot of money, but what does he do with it? Does he have huge mansions or fleets of yachts? No. His lifestyle is quite simple for how much money he has. Lucas uses his money to build the coolest special effects shop, sound studio, and movie sound system companies. He uses it to further his movie work. In the A&E Biography about Lucas, a friend recalled how Lucas was still living like a starving idependent film maker, even after Star Wars. His friends had to remind him that he could afford better.
His movies may not be great, but I don't think for one minute that he's making them because he's greedy.
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Has anyone noticed that if this guy had a real
point he could have organized into a clear cut article rather than disjoint jabber, no wonder Goerge Lucas doesn't listen to him..
His crazy plot for Ep III sounds interesting ...
.... Darth & Obi-Wan setting this whole thing up to bring balance to the force ... how crazy would this be! Lucas would forever be known as a movie genius!
... we still don't know where he learned the ways of the Dark Side ... maybe it was Yoda that taught him ... That would REALLY mess things up!
...Yoda trained Dooku, who has obviously played a part in Anakin's turning to the dark side by showing him how powerful it is. Yoda trained Qui-Gon ... who trained Obi-Wan, who trains Vader. And if Yoda trained Sidious!!! WOW! At that point, maybe the universe should have been focused on pointing a death star at the little green bastard! ... or maybe Yoda was so smart that he knew this would rid the Universe of the Jedi and prevent the Jedi from taking over (for the long haul) ....
It would definately make Lucas look like a genius, but like the good doctor, I don't believe that Lucas would be smart enough (or would let his ego deflate enough) to use this terrific plot that has been presented infront of him.
Consider the possibilities: Yoda and the Emperor working together the whole time
This would also answer the question of how the Emperor became so powerful with the force
Think about it
That story line definately has possibilities!
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And we all remember how rivetting 2001 was (Monolith, snore, Monolith on Moon, snore, Monolith in Jupiter orbit, snore, etc...)
Hey, Star Wars is a space soap opera (sorta like Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers). 2001 is hard-core science fiction. Two distinct genres.
Please don't place a burden on something that doesn't deserve it.
Political correctness is the newest form of slavery.
I thought this article was an interesting read, and he made some really good points. The fact that I neither love or hate star wars makes this it a little easier to look at this objectively.
The one thing that I couldn't agree with was when he said getting angry can turn you evil is a down right lie. He then brings up an obligatory Hitler reference. A better example would be if, say a military group attacked you, and you decided to completely annihliate everyone who is from their country. You fighting the group is not evil, but you going overboard and killing everyone is! Of course you would have had no reason to fight them at all, but you were mad at what they did to you.
Hope that makes sense!
So are you back?where the fuck is your site?
I read David Brin's article and noticed that he keeps mentioning how the whole series can be "redeemed" should Lucas decide to do "something special" to the plot. Of course, Brin never enlightens us to his fix-all plot twist.
Well, I think I might be on to what he's talking about. How cool would it be if Anakin's drop into the Dark Side was manipulated and guided by Yoda (and maybe some other elite Jedi) with the expectation that he'd eventually bring balance to the force in VI: ROTJ? Yoda ( or perhaps a council even higher than the ovenmit?) allows certain attrocities to go unchecked because he has a higher prophecy to fulfill. When I think about the possibilities, this could really put a brilliant and completely new spin upon the Star Wars universe. If done correctly, it really could be the next Empire Strikes Back in terms of having a plot that is more than predictable pubescent garbage (don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars).
But at any rate, those are my thoughts, and I'll admit that I don't read the forums and gossip websites at all. Does anyone else have any ideas as to what this "something special" which David Brin is referring to might be?
I agree. I was thinking the same thing as the movie played: surely Dookoo isn't under the emperor's spell, a drone for the Dark Side. Yet, he was, and I should have known, given Lucas's penchant for puppeteering.
[i]True, it helped that my expectations were low. Still, I found myself quite enjoying the first half of the film!
While I agreed with his overall response I completely disagree with most of his points. I didn't like the first half, except maybe the first scene where Obi-Wan jumps out the window. It was the second half that was enjoyable. While the plot held itself together better in the first half of this the dialog was painful.
I've found that I really dislike this guy, and the way he presents thing. But I often agree with his opinions. At least on movies.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
There are many who will take offense at Brin's comments. But as a fan of Sci Fi it is Brin's duty to question Lucas and call him on his mistakes.
If more people step up and speak the truth about how much of a "let down" both of the "new" Star Wars films have been, maybe George will spend a little more time writing the third and less time worrying about the CGI.
How is Palpatine supposed to explain the clone army? "I propose to create a grand Army of the Republic... oh look, I already have one, isn't that handy?" As they said in the movie, it takes years to develop, breed and train a clone army, so coming up with one at the drop of a hat should raise of few eyebrows.
"Nor did I spend two years at Evil Graduate School for an MA, two years at Evil Writer's Workshop for an MFA, and six years at Evil Graduate School for a Ph.D., but I don't go around signing my posts as: Kelso Lundeen, M.A.,M.F.A.,Ph.D."
:-)
well, no kidding...if you didn't go to school to get those degrees why would you sign your name that way?
Did you end up doing time? If so, do you now look like the goatse guy?
This is what happens when you get a bunch of Phd's at a screening for "just a movie" -- what the rest us normal people simply find enjoyable.
From the article:
"Still, the final third of the film could not keep up my hopes for something truly memorable. For example, the whole audience broke out into disbelieving titters when old Yoda -- the green-asbestos oven mitt -- suddenly started flying around the room, whirling a light saber."
Don't worry David, I'm with you on the mistrust of Yoda theme -- but if you didn't relish that part of the movie maybe you were in the wrong theater; perhaps "the three wives club" would be more to taste?
I don't have any problem with the bland nihlism that apparently irritates Mr. Brin so much, maybe because it appeals to me. I'm not bothered by the incredible plot inconsistencies or the general lack of good story telling. These are movies, not films. I suspend my disbelief, and magically, I'm entertained. Of course, I'm easily entertained, so maybe I'm a bad judge.
Oh, and I save my religous devotion for Star Trek and Vi.
That aside, I think the real problem is that we're quibbling over subplot and subtext in a place it doesn't belong. The original appeal of the space opera in New Hope was that the story arc - moronic, cheesy, and poorly constructed as it might be, IANA writer just an engineer - was epic (insert sound effect for listeners of the Tony Kornheiser show). Whats killed Eps I and II is that we have time to consider the finer, or not so fine, plot components because the story line is so darn boring. As much as it might be a subtle introduction into the making of an emperor, a story arc about a trade dispute pales in comparison to saving the universe from destruction.
Save the intellectualism for Trek and Battlestar Gallactica, and give me more epic space opera in my Ep III, and I'll be happy.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
David Brin is a clueless moron who just happens to supposedly be a good author, haven't read his stuff myself so I don't know. God only knows where he got that crap about the original trilogy from when he wrote that pathetic article laying into it.
...obviously start with Startide Rising, a much better book set in the same universe (The Uplift Saga, which has six volumes). The Uplift War is just as good, even though I suspect it was conceived as a giant pun. It may also appeal to your Libertarian instincts.
Then you're faced with a choice. If you just can't get enough Uplift, the last three books of the saga are really one story or trilogy and introduce many new and interesting ideas. But the climax is not as satisfying as Startide or Uplift War.
If you liked the eco-libertarian side of The Uplift War and (especially) Startide Rising, Earth develops these ideas much more fully, but it may not be entirely non-unsettling to a true believer in the Libertarian Cause.
If you liked the puns in The Uplift War, Kiln People delivers puns at a rate which has to be seen to be believed. This book also does a lot better job of transferring the mystery genre to sci-fi than Sundiver. And he even explains why his gumshoe maintains a running dialog in his head.
If you like Asimov's Foundation, then Foundation's Triumph will be of interest. Otherwise ignore it.
Perhaps his most interesting book was written with Gregory Benford -- Heart of the Comet, biological sci-fi set in deep space.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
Ahoy, send mail fool. Are you really the ghost of Eddie Gentry?
If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
Okay, I give. Where are those three paragraphs?
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Right, but, Lucas seems to want folks to feel there _is_ a message in his films, claiming to be inspired by the work of Campbell (who definitely claimed that even 'escapist' cultural myths reveal the underlying philosophy of a culture).
So Brin is critiqeing from the view that Lucas does want to be taken seriously.
I happen to agree that Lucas just wants to make a bunch of money and play with some cool new digital toys & that he is using Campbellian patterns in his stories because they are recepies for popularity, not because he actually wants or expects his stories to teach or shape the culture.
But a central theme to Campbell's work was that popular myths _do_ shape and teach...
And -- to my delighted shock! -- for the very first time, an action-plot twist! Out of the four Star Wars films that Lucas has directed, for the first time he did not resolve the action by having someone fly a teeny ship into a great big ship, shoot the 'reactor' and then run away real fast from a slow-motion explosion! At last.
Ummmm.. Lucas only directed 3 of the 5 films currently in release: Episodes I, II, and IV. Return of the Jedi, which featured the second version of the shoot the 'reactor' and then run away real fast scheme was directed by Richard Marquand, not Lucas.
Bottom of the page.
I don't care if he's jealous. His addendum RAWKS!
God, it's so good, I wish I'd thought of it!
note to self: read more of his books!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
ummm...down at the bottom of his review.
Do you realize that in nowadays' political atmosphere, the Rebels would be seen as terrorists and the evil Empire would look more like ... well.
It could be that Owen considered droids beneth notice - the classic "They all look alike to me". As such, the only reason he would consider C-3P0 special were the memories that were erased. Upon meeting the wiped 3P0, nothing would be present to trigger any familiarity.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Brin makes some interesting points in these anti-Lucas screeds of his, but the strongest feeling I get from them is one of bitter resentment. I think Brin has a particular idea of what constitutes "real" SF, and Lucas's success with his paltry "pseudo-SF" is grating. That, I can understand, but it does Brin no good to come up with spurious logic and silly accusations to try and denigrate Lucas... to what purpose, I can't tell.
For example, Brin is fond of pointing out how unhealthy it is to repress your emotions -- something he claims the Jedi faith is based on. The problem is that the Jedi have no problems with the existence of negative emotions -- merely with acting on them. Controlling yourself to the point where you don't even have any negative emotions is nigh-impossible; but recognizing when you are having those emotions, and waiting until you are calm before you act, is where the wisdom lies.
Brin also makes the odd assumption that just because Lucas shows a character doing something in a movie, means that Lucas thinks that real people should act that way in real life. His quote from Orwell is almost apropos, except that a movie is different enough from a gas chamber that the comparison is silly. I'm not saying Brin has to like Lucas's beliefs or philosophy, but to claim that there's some crime being perpetrated against humanity because of the entirely fictional things that happen in a movie, is just dumb. Criticizing a movie for bad writing, bad direction, and bad acting is certainly fine, but why does Brin see such a threat against real adult morality from these films?
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
I've read most of his books. Not because I find his books especially well written, but because I'm a Sci-Fi junkie. His characters tend to feel like cardboard propups. Not that I'm defending Lucas' crap either.
Why oh why can't Hollywood make decent Sci-Fi movies? Most of the sci-fi movies that get made are absolute torture to watch. I suspect it has to do with the fact that most decent movies today are made with relative shoestring budgets. Crap lie Star Wars and Star Trek and even Minority Report.
Another may be that the Directors involved in the production are too powerful and have too much control over everything. Does anyone believe Lucas was told the Romance scene was completely horrid? I can't beleive the actors managed to spout that tripe without barfing or laughing in Lucas' face.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Nothing changes. Fscking nazis.
I was irritated by his smarmy "If he knew Joe Campbell like I knew Joe Campbell" approach to the whole thing. And his blind determination that he must be right. Darth Vader as Hitler is a million miles of stretch - you either have to ignore the Holocaust or imagine something similar for ol'Vader which apparently happens outside of the films.
Sour grapes maybe? (especially because he points out twice that he has the magic plotline which will restore the series to respectability) Taking himself a little (WAY) too seriously? Unable to separate entertainment from enlightment?
I think droids are a commodity in the SW universe, much like toasters are today. Mass produced, identical, and when you come down to it: mere tools.
Why would Owen remember it?
Murphy was an optimist.
Just out of curiousity, how many prime numbers does he go through before he stops? I couldn't watch anymore. Also, I was proudly hit number 49,000 (I think).
What Lucas is good at is production-value overload. In Episode I, there's a new major set every 90 seconds. That's really what keeps people from being bothered by the bad dialogue and inept action.
Yes, it makes money, but so does Pokemon.
In a recent Time Magazine article, George Lucas explains the depressingly foreordained saga of Anakin Skywalker's slide into evil-demigodhood by saying: "He turns into Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother; he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you're greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you're going to lose things, that you're not going to have the power you need."
So in essence, Lucas has modelled the Vader character after himself. The series has so much potential, everyone can see that. But Lucas is content to drag it down to the lowest level, simply because he is greedy.
I also really like the author's suggestion for Episode Three, which is a major plot twist. I have thought about it, and I think it could work very well. I'd have to review the previous movies to see if it works all the way through the trilogy, but I think it would. He proposes that Obi Wan and Darth Vader are actually teaming up against Yoda and the Emperor.
I think it would be a cool twist to reveal that the Empire is really the good guys, and the Rebels are the bad guys. There was a whole article on this somewhere, and I thought it was a pretty unique and intriguing analysis of the saga.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
"Doesn't he have peers to workshop this stuff against?" Ouch! That hurt all the way over here, and it wasn't even _pointed at me_! George - all work and no peer review makes a director - weird.
this
Wow. I wonder where Klerck is.
Jesus, just enjoy it. Quit over analyzing it.
Um. Well there are two schools of thought when it comes to a form of art:
1. Those who enjoy it for its own sake.
2. Those who enjoy it for intellectual reasons.
Take anything: music, film, fine art. Whatever and you will find these two camps (the second being smaller than the first).
Now your post title is "It's just a movie" so I assume you are in the first camp. Basically the rule of thumb is if you liked the movie or not. Binary. Runs. or Hangs. And that's fine.
The second group are those who take an active interest in looking deeper into a form of art. The political reasons. The creator's own personal relations to it. Larger social meaning and how it fits into the larger genre. Here analyisis brings deeper understanding of the film and thus more pleasure than just sitting back and watching it.
A good parallel is David Sirlin's editiorials on Street Fighter II. His gist? Either you enjoy video games just to play them, or you enjoy them by winning (and winning takes analysis of the deeper mechanics of the game).
In all things either it is just a meaningless pastime or a deep and profound experience. Passive enjoyment or active involvement. Understand that there are people who enjoy the same things you do but for different reasons.
What is music when you despise all sound?
This is not to say that Star Wars has been a goldmine of originality, of course.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
There has to be more to Yoda than meets the eye. First he (apparentlly) has no clue as to what is going on around him in the most recent films. Second -- Their is a questionable amount of mystery as to why he went into hiding during the last 3 star wars movies. I think Brin has a good theory that Lucas could use to tie up the MANY loose ends in this story. I just can't help but think that Yoda's mysterious actions and apparent ignorance is the biggest outstanding mystery of all.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Why bother with all the analysis? The movie just sucked. George Lucas writes up anything that comes to his head and passes it on to the production crew with nothing more than "uh.. I want this..."
Episode II is so far below any sort of level that it's beyond any form of analysis whatsoever. The only question we should be asking ourselves is "why the hell did we spend money to see this crap?"
Yuioup
The only people I ask to address me as Doctor are those who introduce themselves as Dr. whomever. Everybody else just calls me by my first name. I've always felt that as long as I have confidence in my knowledge and abilities, I don't need to push the handle.
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Oh, wait this is /. of course not.
Brin makes an outlandish suggestion. What if Vader and Obi won were working together against both the jedi and the empire? It would explain all the inconsistencies in the 5 movies so far!
Go read the article, it's right at the bottom. Awesome idea.
Liberty.
Star Wars isn't science fiction because there's
no science in Star Wars.
Star Wars isn't science fiction because there's no science in Star Wars.
Star Wars isn't science fiction because there's no science in Star Wars.
Why do people feel the need to disect and analyze movies? It's entertainment, and you're not going to whittle away human emotions and get to some enlightenment of basic human understanding, or whatever. It's a friggin sci-fi movie, why try to psycho-analyze fictional characters? Not that I think the ATC was an outstanding movie, but I took it for what it was: a movie. This guys "review" is just plain ridiculous.
eMelody Web Directory add your site today!
The most posted messages on this site would be "forst post" and "Look at this huge anus !" in several variations.
This is typically the stance I take when someone starts to critique Star Wars as well. I do, however, enjoy hearing intelligent critiques and laughing about the shortcomings with friends.
This is not one of those times.
This man's article falls short in several areas. First and foremost, he's plain wrong on some of his assumptions.
Let's not even go into micro-illogicalities, like having CP30 work for 'Uncle Owen' for ten years... then later they won't recognize each other at all.
I mention this because it's hinted again and again that Anakin will "unite" the schism in the force. But this has been poorly foreshadowed at any level. Have we even a hint what this MEANS?
Has he forgotten there's another movie coming, one which takes place between AOTC and ANH? Perhaps Lucas is leading us on because, oh, I don't know...he wants us to eagerly anticipate and try to predict what really DOES happen? I, for one, would be horribly disappointed if GL tried to hammer some of these things home with a sledge hammer, it would take away from my imagination.
Minor nitpick... did anyone notice the repeated use of the phrase 'fire on the Federation starship!' and 'don't let the Federation starship get away!'
What are these guys -- Klingons?
Trade Federation. I'm not going to dictionary.com to lookup the word's definition, but I'd guess there are plenty of reasons to use it, and I guarantee it was around before Star Trek.
Yoda -- the green-asbestos oven mitt
Again and again, we see Anakin being punished for being, er, human.
A dig at Star Trek? What do you want, a monopoly? Hey, people have enjoyed 100 times as many hours of that universe as they have yours, George. Live with it.
Despite every flaw, there IS a way that Lucas could weave all the threads together and pull a miracle of cinematic legerdemain, causing it all to make magnificent sense.
I'd wager my house that he won't do it.
I have serious problems with people giving THIS TYPE of criticism of George Lucas. He has, quite arguably, the most succesful saga ever seen on the screen. Millions upon millions of people flock to see his movies, more often than not 3-4 times in the theatres alone. Typically, finding someone who hasn't seen Star Wars is met with "What?! How's that possible?!". If it's a guy being asked, I'd outright disbelieve them. My point is, unless you can come up with a reason contradicting why the better part of the world has seen Star Wars and thoroughly enjoys it, I don't think criticism of GL really stands.
--trb
Essentially, he is saying that if you assume that the good guys are really the bad guys, and vice-versa, the whole series makes more sense. It's not particularly insightful. Just another way of saying that the movies don't make sense.
Okay, I'm tired of seeing this thing linked to, so I will post my rather extensive rebuttal. Even if the author was joking, which I don't think he was.
I'm not going to deal with his ignorance of the Expanded Universe, I don't like his reasons but I'll let it be. I'll refute him with the movies.
The notion that the Emperor was a benign dictator like Pinochet--I don't know where to start. I'm sure Chile would be most impressed to learn that Pinochet was "benign." Thousands killed for political reasons is not "benign."
Now, he has a point that Alderaan was probably armed. Most planets are. That's not illegal. Destruction of those weapons would have been a legitimate military exercise. Now, I ask you this: is it legitimate to slaughter civilians to destroy those targets? Especially if you're doing it to blackmail a resistance leader? Who happens to be a member of your own governing body? That would be akin to Bush nuking New York because Hillary Clinton would blow him. I mean, really. Who's the author trying to kid?
He speaks of the system of regional governors, owing their fealty to the Emperor, and what a nice system was and how the Emperor's death would shatter it all. First of all, it's not much of a system if it takes one man (in a galaxy of quadrillions or more) to hold it all together. That they would squabble speaks poorly of Palpatine's judgement.
Yes it's true that the Empire is a meritocracy. Do what we say or we kill you. Do it right while doing what we say or we kill you. Never does he question the ethics of such a policy.
How are Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru traitors? They bought two droids secondhand from junk dealers. The droids weren't stolen, so all you can get them on is harboring fugitives. Except, those droids were abandoning ship. Hell, C-3PO didn't even know what R2-D2 had. If you want to get technical, R2-D2 should be gotten for possessing stolen goods, 3P0 for aiding a felon...There were no grounds for executing them, especially since without the droids there was no proof. I didn't see the Jawas give Owen a receipt.
As for his bashing of the Jedi, I will suggest to him "hubris," and ask him if the Jedi ever killed innocent people at random. Moreover, the Jedi are elevated by biology, and the cultivation of resultant abilites. A meritocracy, of sorts. Isn't that what he thought was so great about the Empire?
As for the Republic putting down the rebellion...they were simply a regime fighting a violent group committed to their overthrow...like the Empire.
His article is amusing, but I see people taking it seriously, thus I must point out these inconsistencies and logical fallacies. The Empire benign? Please...
~Chazzf
No statement is true, not even this one.
And what about those who enjoy analyzing it?
This is an extremely interesting twist in the plot, but I don't think it has any chance of happening. Not because of Lucas's ego or anything like that though. I think it won't happen because Yoda is such a beloved character. It would be like if in the new Indiana Jones movie we find that Indy has joined the Nazis, or something like that (well maybe not THAT bad, but you know). Lots of people would be really pissed.
If a slightly different version of this plot existed, where Yoda doesn't actually have evil intentions and isn't really working with the the Sith, then maybe there's a chance. Like Vader and Obi-wan decided Yoda needed to be curbed but not because he was evil. I dunno.
Just my thoughts.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
Its obvious that George Lucas has gotten rich peddling movies based on shallow characters and B-movie plots (argubly, sub B-movie plots at this point). He's making buttloads of money, and that is his goal - anything "deeper" is just pretentious BS.
What Brin doesn't seem to pick up on is that the Jedi are a cliched version of Buddhist "Warrior Monks". The Jedi "culture" is just a mish-mash of esoteric Asian martial arts mumbo-jumbo and a superficial rendering of Buddhist platitudes. George Lucas didn't make this stuff up - maybe Brin ought to send a letter to the Dalai Lama or something.
The Star Wars movies have always been just sensational, intellectually shallow, B-movies. All that "Joseph Campbell" crap is just pretentious intellectual drivel. You don't sit around deconstructing Arnold Schwarzeneggar movies, do you? The star wars movies ought to be evaluated at that level.
Way too many people have drunk the Kool-Aid when it comes to Star Wars movies.
My be it's just me but when I sit down and read the old Greek and Roman Mythology, or the stories of Cucuilin and others in celtic legend or Nordic legends, I don't expect things to be realistic. I expect a story that is ment to entertain, or in the case of many of the myths explain some working of the world in a non scientific way.
Now when I watch Star Wars i expect the same thing. Since it is obviouslly not intented to be and explainitory tail I take is as one to entertain. And in that I don't think the Genre Star Wars belongs to is Sci-fi, it belongs in the catagory of Myth, ledgend. The genre were everything does not have to be explained, the details that have been forgotten, or the little changes that make the story that much larger then life.
Hell Lucus even plays it up like it's a legend, "a long, long time ago in a galaxay far far away." Sort of like the way I can image the stories of the Cuculin being spread "a long time ago in the lands to the north" you get it? that type of thing.
If you sit down and read the Odysy do you expect a realistic acount of sea travel in the time of the Greeks? I don't. So I don't expect a realistic account of what space travel would be like in the story star wars tells.
Offtopic, but when Earth came out, I went to buy it in hardback, and by coincidence, David Brin was signing copies in the shop. I was with my daughter in a pushchair, and waited patiently while someone (it seemed to me) bored DB to death about the rumoured sequel to the Uplift trilogy, and how he should write it. When my turn came, eventually (sigh), I mentioned to DB how I'd read someplace how hard is was to do something new when you've been a success with a trilogy, future universe or whatever. He said never to dismiss the stuff that pays the mortgage. The book dedication to my daughter was spot on too. Earth is one of my all time favourite books, and, as depicted in Earth, I fully expect to be a crumbly old fart baby boomer recording everything those pesky kids get up to via my $10 sunglasses in 2038.
Brin's analysis of the plot and facts of the movies is not bad, if a bit slanted with that "I could never love a Star Wars movie" attitude.
However, he tries to over analyze Lucas's intenteded "messages" about life and that Lucas is trying to show us how democracy simply dies, despostism is wonderful, and that the moral message is twisted and confusing.
Its a damn space opera, not a morality play, nitwit.
And the fact that he comes to this conclusion shows he has ignored all of the work done in the novels in the star wars universe. Unlike Star Trek, George reviews the novels carefully and approves them as long as they fit into the universal plot. Star Trek trash novels are filled with duplications and inconsistencies with the series they are modelled after because they are just throwaways. However, the Star Wars novels are far tighter. Are they perfect? Of course not, but at least effort is made. And the point is that those novels refute most of his claims about confusing morality and messages in the Star Trek universe.
But then again, this was written by a man who wrote "The Postman." I don't know why I even bothered to even read what this whacko has to say.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Maybe people just like complaining. -CPM
---You're all I need, When the water runs deep, You're all I need, Now I cry my soul to sleep -- Collective Soul, Needs
It is not a "terrific plot", and it's not terribly original, either (I've been hearing similar theories since Episode 1 was released). As Brin himself points out, it can't work for one simple reason: Darth Vader killed far too many people.
I mean, maybe he could have been forced to kill a couple of people just to convince the emperor he really was on the dark side. A tough moral choice but in the end he decided the sacrifice of a few was necessary to save the majority, sort of thing. But when the undercover agent kills more people than the godfather, then there's no way you can make him turn out to be a good guy after all.
No, I think Episodes 2 and 1 really did more damage than Episode 3 can possibly fix. And what's worse, if you see them in the new order, the original movies (which are excellent) will now seem to be full of contradictions. Lucas might as well have made a completely separate story (same universe, perhaps, but not directly connected to the original movies).
After I saw Episode 1, a friend of mine asked me "so, how did you find the plot?" and I said "I didn't".
The only way to fix things is if, in Episode 3, J.R. wakes up and all this turns out to have been a dream.
RMN
~~~
Is this guy a communist? Read his first articles again.
... Star Wars are movies to be enjoyed at their face value ... if you spend too much time analysing their "depths" you deserve the anguish. You people give George Lucas too much credit. I'll bet you that he never thought about all these things in as much depth as you have :)
He misses a lot of points and I am not even going to dignify an answer. Hint: He talks about those (very) interesting twists of Yoda being evil and all that but that would introduce other paradoxes while fixes the ones he mentions. The problem with paradoxes is that once one "exists" you cannot "fix" it without introducing another one.
One more thing
Ohh yeah, I am sucker because I LOVE all the Star Wars movies no matter what.
Fourty-two!
So what do we see in this movie? Liam Neeson (Qui-Gon Jinn) gets separated from his nemesis, Darth Maul, by a force field. The adversaries pause and glare at each other before resuming the fight. What a great time for Maul to give his side of the story -- his seething need for revenge against the Jedi! Maybe some riveting mumbledy-jumble about the Jedi having crushed and suppressed one whole side of the Force for a thousand years, thus creating awful imbalance in the universe! (Maybe Neeson even half agrees! After all, he's the one wanting to restore "balance,"
I know exactly where you are coming from, but I must admit that it was pretty cool that Lucas didn't follow the typical villian cliche of "...since you're going to die anyway, let me reveal all my Masters plans on taking over the Universe." I was kinda surprised that there wasn't a villian rant when our hero was up against the ropes and was about to die.
Of course there's holes, every movie's got them. I bet Brin wouldn't be too thrilled having people pick apart his books. I bet Yoda could find a few holes ... "A typo, there is!"
David Brin is a hypocrite criticizing for the attention... Anyona can take a great piece of work and remove the things that make it what it is and laugh. He's just too low for my taste :/
This is, in fact, the most realistic part of the movie. But Brin is an optimist and refuses to recognize that. In any case, this pessimistic view is necessary to set the stage for the later movies, so complaining about it is futile, futile, futile.
It's actually worse than Brin thinks, though. Palpatine had things set up so no matter what happened, he won. What Palpatine is, is the opposite of the typical Evil Overlord -- he doesn't rely on one evil plan which can be upset by the meddlings of a hero. Instead, he sets up a situation such that the meddlings of the heroes actually advance his cause. ALL paths lead to his victory.
Apparently this guy doesn't really understand the Star Wars universe. Everything in SW, especially the points that he brought up, make perfect sense to me and I'm willing to be the millions of other SW fans out there. If what he says is true, then how could SW remain so wildly popular for near 30 years?
SIGFAULT
With 30 lbs of feces in his intestines.
"A *person* is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
- 'K' in Men in Black.
The books are not canonical. I get the impression from Brin's writing that he is clued enough about SW fandom to exclude the books because of that, rather than because he isn't aware of them.
...is that Brin does not understand, and does not care to learn to understand, Buddhism. He thinks loving someone and attaching to someone is the same thing. This is the lie Buddha saw so clearly that he created one of the biggest philosophical movements in history. Brin should do some religous studying.
Just a few:
- Angle the deflector shields.
These beg the question, "Where do they come up with this stuff?"--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I can remember sitting in the theater watching AotC and leaning over to whisper to my friend that this could have been a SciFi channel special.
I was annoyed I paid money to see it and glad my wife wouldn't see it until it was 2nd or worse in the box office for 2 weeks in a row. I think AotC was a perfect made for TV popcorn show....
that is it.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
Do you think a viewer in the theater will sit and think through such explanations as they watch the poor dialogue on the screen? Or would a viewer rather just see a good emotional performance that conveys to them all of those explanations in the first place? It's called acting.
For someone who is "all of a sudden getting this rush of feelings" and another someone who "has never loved before either since her life has been spent in the political spotlight," you'd think their performances would better reflect those emotions. Instead, I had to come to Slashdot for trb001 to describe it out to me because the dialogue and acting was so poor.
From what you describe, I should have been seeing incredible passionate romance in the AOTC I saw. But I didn't.
Because not everyone has shitloads of money and connections to get into the movie business?
I notice some people mentioned that he's written some books -- perhaps that might satiate your demand, if they're any good?
My favorite complaint of the movie! No he is not mexican he is Maori as in from New Zealand.
Then they usually respond,"well he looks mexican."
Again, DUH! Mexicans (natives, as there are Mexicans of all backgrounds) like New Zealanders are part of the mongoloid race.
Ever notice that East Asians, Native Americans and Eskimos all look similar? It is not a coincidence!
I am personally a big star wars fan, not for any other reason than it is an enjoyable watch for me. I think EII was a great movie, advanced the whole 6-movie story, and was a good action flick as well. I agree that some of the romance was overdone, but oh well. You can't please everyone.
In conclusion: if you like it, watch it. If not, don't.
In 1968, two of the student houses at Caltech got caught in recruiting violations -- being intentionally obnoxious to the three students no one wanted. As punishment, one house was forced to take two of them: http://www.magicdragon.com/jvp.html and http://www.fractal.com/hedges.html The other house was punished with the big prize -- Dave Brin.
He's saying assume that the Emperor AND Yoda are the bad guys, and that Obi Wan AND Vader are the good guys.
The enemies of Democracy are
Sorry, I didn't make it clear that I meant he is too beloved by people who watch the movie. I didn't mean he was beloved plot-wise. I feel like most people who watch the movie just would really dislike making Yoda an evil character. Plot-wise it's very interesting, and there have been many other cases where a supposedly good character turns out to be bad in a movie, but I feel like Yoda is kind of untouchable in this regard... just my feeling.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
brin thinks that the mention of "Federation starships" is a dig at Trek. I thinkn he's grasping at straws.
The ships belonged to the Trade Federation. I'm guessing it's called Trade Federation because Alliance was already taken and other synonyms like Union or Guild might have caused different "issues".
my blog: good times, man, good times
The maricle that is the internet can now provide us with movie reviews a mere 2,920 hours after a film is released.
With some luck, Slashdot can give us a review of the new Monster's Inc. DVD release in early Janurary 2003.
Ironic scenes on Planet Kamino showed that Lucas had finally decided to use the Obi-Wan character to full potential, making up for his ridiculous underuse in the heroless Phantom Menace.
(Again: who was the 'hero" in that film? Every classic 'Campbellian' role was filled, except for that one! See below.)...
Consider just one glaring awfulness. Despite Campbellian pretensions, TPM follows NONE of Campbell's prescriptions! Forget the "reluctant hero"... there isn't even a hero!
Where can I learn more about Campbell and roles?
Did anyone read his "Foundation" series (by Asimov) book written after Asimov died? It was absolutely horrible.
He had the Hubris to make these inane, _wrong_, comments about all the mistakes Asimov made, and explain how he chose to write in his own (horrible) style instead. It was truly a bad book - Bear and Benford's were good.
He's a pompous douchebag - and I'm more convinced of that than ever after reading his facile little Salon articles.
Brin- science fiction writer, where writers:
Lucas- science fiction (though he won't admit it) movie / TV director, where directors:
But I doubt Lucas will ever hear Brin: Lucas seems to have surrounded himself with yesmen, who rarely pass on negative articles. (Plus, for him to listen would be evidence that his work and inspiration came in part from SF and the space opera of his youth.)
I guess we cannot really call plot holes plot holes until we see all the films, however i am willing to give Brin the benefit of the doubt on that and assume most of the holes will still be there after Ep3.
... will anyone please explain why the Sith Lord and Trade Federation risk everything to capture a teeny periphery planet? Can we have a clue why Naboo was important -- any hint at all? Hello? "
However he writes in his Phantom critique:
"Uh
The simple answer to this is that Naboo is the home planet of Senator Palpatine and as such is an environment he can control and benefit directly from when it is suffering. By bringing Naboo into the big galactic picture he also brings himself into the picture.
matt
"She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid."
"Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough!"
"Look at the size of that thing!"
"Sorry about the mess..."
"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought."
"Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper?"
"You've got something jammed in here real good."
"Put that thing away before you get us all killed!"
"Luke, at that speed do you think you'll be able to pull out in time?"
"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care *what* you smell!"
Top Ten Sexually Tilted Lines in "The Empire Strikes Back"
"And I thought they smelled bad...on the outside!"
"Possible he came in through the south entrance."
"I must've hit it pretty close to the mark to get her all riled up like that, huh kid?"
"Hurry up, golden-rod..."
"That's okay, I'd like to keep it on manual control for a while."
"But now we must eat. Come, good food, come..."
"Control, control! You must learn control!"
"There's an awful lot of moisture in here."
"Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?"
"I thought that hairy beast would be the end of me!"
Top Ten Sexually Tilted Lines in "Return of the Jedi"
"Rise, my friend."
"Open the back door!"
"Hey, point that thing somewhere else!"
"It's just a dead animal..."
"Not bad for a little fur ball."
"How can they be jamming us if they don't know we're coming?"
"Come here, I won't hurt you. You want something to eat?"
"Keep on that one, I'll take these two"
"I want you to take her. I mean it, take her!"
"I don't think the Empire had wookies in mind when they designed her, Chewie."
It is amazing that a professional, fairly unsuccessful publisher (compared to Lucas) would write an article such as this, attacking lucas' philosophical knowledge without any himself.
In fact Lucus' treatment of the guidence of Yoda and the problems inherent with the darkside is spot on. It is also very difficult to communicate visually, and lucas does it well in episode 5 and 2.
A Message to Mr Brin "Hello, Read the Bhagavad-Gita, readthe Tao Te Ching, read the Ramayana, the teachings of an enlightened Buddah, hell you will even find this in the Bible or the writings of Sephen Covey."
The message of attachment is simple and its understanding is the purpose of eastern philosophical / spiritual study. As a writer he should know this and as such that makes his articles on of the typical Salon cheap shots.
Salon - the Troll of internet media
so much as Padme's motivation. For the first half of the film, Padme saw Anakin as a slightly annoying lovestruck boy. Then all of a sudden she was in love with him and they were giggling like children. Later, Anakin tells Padme about how he gloried in the slaughter of a village of Sand People, and in response Padme decides to have sex with him. This isn't even to consider the fact that in the approximately 10 years between episode 1 and episode 2, Padme apparently didn't age at all. Perhaps Padme spent a brief stint in a Black Hole to let Anakin catch up with her so they could have their horribly contrived love tryst.
i don't care what Lucas does so long as it has some semblance of internal consistency. AotC was even worse than PM in this regard (and many others). As much as I disliked PM I thought it a far better film than AotC.
It's not that they aren't funny, just that they lack style.
Using a URL redirection script on microsoft.com [goatse.cx] coupled with a attention grabbing topic line to encourage people to click on it - now that's funny!
...myself, I can testify to the complete accuracy of your statements.
It took one bad relationship for me to realise that lust really was a world apart from love, and 5 more "interesting" relationships to get anywhere close to having understanding and control over my feelings.
Yes, AotC had tacky romantic dialog... Yes, we all cringed... No, it was not crappy romance, or bad writing; it was 100% accurate material from someone who remembers being 19 and "In Love."
Geeze, I remember telling a girl I was interested in that running around flashing Loscon in a pair of speedos just wouldn't be the same without her. How many of you have said equally wierd things..? : )
(Out of curiosity, I wonder how many people here will suddenly respond... "Oh, so *you're* the one who..!"
I can't believe I'm still seeing this being used as "proof" that the Fett's represent white America's fear of Mexican infiltration...
Not only don't I buy into this belief, but the "proof" is incorrect! If they new ANYTHING about Star Wars, they'd know that it wasn't the SON calling Jango "baba", but JANGO calling his SON "Boba".... BECAUSE THAT'S HIS NAME! BOBA FETT! Sheesh, he's only been one of the most loved characters of the Star Wars universe for like oh, 20 years.
Andrew
For example in the German speaking world (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) you can be sued if you refer to someone with a doctorat without mentioning 'Dr.'. If someoane has two doctorates you have to refer to him/her as Dr.Dr. They also have 'Habilitation' which is a higher academic degree than a PhD. If someoane is a habilitated doctor you have to refer to him as Dr.Habil. Usually all professors have at least one doctorate AND a Habilitation. However the correct addressing form is not just Prof. but Prof.Dr.Habil. Depending on the degrees owned many combinations are possible such asa bilD r.Habil.Dr.Habilc
Dr.
Dr.Dr.
Dr.Habil
Dr.Dr.Habil
Prof.Dr.H
Prof.Dr.Habil.Ing.
Prof.Dr.Dr.Habil.
Prof.
Prof.Dr.Habil.Dr.Habil.Ing.
et
Believe or not if you DO NOT use the right title you may be sued. For example IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE to refer to a person with two doctorates and a habilitation as 'Dr.'. You MUST say Dr.Dr.Habil.
Not the Dark Side itself. The Dark Side is where evil people dwell, its not something you just evolve to when you become angry, but by being angry, and doing angry/evil things while angry you move down that path
Error: Erection reset by beer.
http://www.pigdog.org/auto/drive_in_pigdog/shortfe ature/2592.html
Episode II: Attack of the Clones plays on American paranoia about Mexican immigration with its army of lookalikes marching in lockstep by the tens of thousands. The fact that the soldiers are bred on the planet Kamino --- which sounds like the Spanish word 'camino' --- is a dead giveaway to the bias and bounty hunter Jango Fett even looks Latino
Brin quotes what the Latino community is complaining about, then goes on to say that *normally* he'd consider this PC hysteria, but maybe, just maybe, there's something to it.
I completely lost him at this point. I'm sorry, but 'Kamino' for all we know could have been taken from the old El Caminos. Maybe Lucas was a car buff. And you damn well better believe if he never hired Latino actors for his movies, the shit would hit the fan. Considering that Boba Fett is widely considered by fans to be one of the 'coolest' Star Wars characters, I don't quite see how this is a bad thing for Latinos.
You might as well say that Lucas has a thing against car buffs with dark hair - your argument would hold about as much water.
And God forbid he ever use characters with any accents again (the other common 'racism' complaint of late with Star Wars). Know what? By making a character sound/look/act different, that's is PRECISELY what makes them alien. That's not racism, that's human nature. Trek has been doing this for decades now (hordes and hordes of alien races who look *similar* to us, but maybe with a different skin color), and I don't see any mass outcry against it. You have to make aliens different somehow, or else they wouldn't be.. alien. Accented English is a very effective medium for this - human beings of the same species speak in different accents, why wouldn't different species? Of course, the odds of them speaking the same language at all are pretty slim, but you have to draw the line somewhere unless you want the next Star Wars (now with no racial stereotypes!) to look like a foreign film filled with subtitles.
Methinks Mr. Brin, much as I love most of his writing, wants very badly to jump on the bash Lucas bandwagon. All he's done is re-hash the same tired criticisms of Lucas and Star Wars, wrapped in bigger words and more obscure concepts.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
I was routing for Jango Fett! Especially against OB1. Lucas made it look like he was protecting Boba.
His character didn't make any sense to me. He's a bounty hunter, a quick shooter, a plain human, fights jedi, a protective father and helps create an clone army for the Sith.? It wasn't clear if he even knew what the army was used for nor why.
The army he helped create ended up fighting against the droid army of the boss he was working for?? He's killed by the jedi's?
A person who has to carry a family with him and fight along side the bad guys has to be an idealist or a fundamentalist extremist. There was an opportunity lost here by george lucas.
In TPM I was also cheering for Darth Maul. I thought he was so cool going against two Jedi's at the same time! Darth Maul was the most popular character in his movie. That was another opportunity George Lucas lost here.
I feel George Lucas doesn't know how to express his stories. People like bad guys. The best bad guy are those that believe in what they're doing is right.
Right now all he has is Darth Vader to carry his stories. I suggest Mr Lucas read the Xmen comic books and take a look at Magneto. Now that's a good bad guy people route for!
I was laughing inside at how stupid the Jedi's were to pop in that arena. What a stupid idea!
My suggestion is to allow Stephen Speilberg do the last one. I'm sure he'll put together something that will make sense.
BTW the best movie is ESB. hands down.
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
What happens after they chain the princess to a pillar? I got thrown out and banned from my local cinema after that scene.
No, that was an example of above average acting in a film that fills a similar role. Comparing the acting to, say, One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest or Shawshank wouldn't exactly be a fair comparison. Apples to oranges and all that.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
"Does "Seven Samurai" or "Magnificent Seven" inform the debate..."
"inform the debate" !!!
At one time a person had to hang around a bar with the drunks to hear that kind of pseudo-sophisticated drivel, now it is available anywhere through the miracle of the internet. "Inform the debate" Oh, puke.
We're up to an astonishing $10, or $9.50 if you see it in the outer boroughs.
I personally found the comment funny because I thought the same thing while watching the Episode II. Particularly interesting was the fact that the Republic's ships were called "spaceships" while Federation ships were called specifically "starships." In Star Trek, it's the starship Enterprise.
I hope yr implying that he orally ingested said 30 lbs of feces.
otherwise it wouldn't be right.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Hayden said maybe one line in the whole fucking movie that had any real feeling behind it and he was acting opposite Chris Lee at the time. "I'm a slow learner."
:PPPP~
People often blast Mark Hamill's acting in the OT but while he might not have had the nuances of say, Al Pacino in "the Godfather" he did have an infectious enthusiasm that fit the character. If anything him and Harrison Ford overact which is a good thing for a space opera.
Hayden just seems bored (or stoned) as does Natalie. They say their lines with all the enthusiasm of the first cast read-through for a high school play.
Now if only Lucas could use CGI in an AOTC SE to replace Natalie and Hayden with CGI actors who actually seem alive, not like two fence posts stoned on bad weed and also fix that god awful "romantic" dialogue, then maybe it would be a good movie.
I also wouldn't mind an explanation to how Anakin went from a nice sweet, likable kid to an arrogant, asshole shithead who doesn't seem to be the same character at all...
And just why did he wait ten-years to go back for his mother? I know many of you will point out the Jedi required him to but even that doesn't explain it for two reasons.
For one wouldn't the Jedi want to make sure his mom is safe since Yoda foresaw that loosing his mom could be his undoing? Also even if the Jedi did forbid it, why would that stop Anakin? Would you leave your mom to rot away as a slave on a harsh desert world just to avoid "breaking the rules".?
I also wouldn't mind an explanation of how Padme went from an intelligent 14 y/o Queen to an insanely stupid 20-something Senator. She has to leave Coruscant because her life is in danger..
So she leaves Jar Jar, the biggest dumb ass in the galaxy in charge of her Senate Seat??? (Which leads to the creation of the Clone Army - the First step of the Empire) Then she falls in love with a mass-murderer??? I could understand her being OK with Anakin killing all the males in the Tusken Camp since they're warriors and the ones directly responsible for the death of his mother but he tells her he killed the women and children too and all she can say is "You're only human!". Uhhh so the Senate is suppose to care about a pretty much bloodless invasion of her puny hippie planet in TPM yet she's perfectly ok with Anakin killing defenseless women and children?
Alllllllllrighty then little miss perfect! Well fuck you and your whole piece of shit hippie-go-free-free planet!
Oh well at least all the Obi-Wan, Yoda, Jango scenes kicked ass as did the last 30-45 mins. Thanks God for chapter skip when the DVD comes out in Nov.
"The human mind's ability to rationalize its own shortcomings into virtues is unlimited." - Robert A. Heinlein