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When you purchase a PC, you should have the option of installing freeware that might help you in the incessant barrage of spam, viruses, spyware, adware, bots and phishing emails. It might also help to have a short tutorial on how your PC becomes infected/compromised/used to propogate malicious code. Maybe then Windows would be a better and safer O/S?


For those who need some free help:
http://free.grisoft.com/doc/2/lng/us/tpl/v5 (AVG anti virus)
http://www.zonelabs.com/store/content/company/prod ucts/znalm/freeDownload.jsp (Zone Alarm firewall)
http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/ (Ad-Aware adware/spyware detection)
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/download/ (SpyBot S&D adware/spyware detection)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?Fa milyID=321cd7a2-6a57-4c57-a8bd-dbf62eda9671&displa ylang=en (MS Anti-Spyware adware/spyware detection)

I worked at a computer repair shop at one point, and my SOP is very similar, although I typically run HijackThis earlier in the process (Before removing programs), and I include - if necessary - some passes with other programs.

Worst-case Scenario:
1) Kill all unecessary processes manually (if able)
2) Run MSCONFIG and disable unecessary startup processes (if able)
3) Run Spybot S&D (if able)
4) Run HijackThis
5) Install Avast! AV and updates, and schedule a boot-time scan (if able)
6) Uninstall/manually remove unecessary applications
7) Reboot
8) Repeat all setps 1-6 which did not work the first time
9) Run Spybot S&D (again)
10) Install and configure Firefox with Adblock extension.
11) Install and configure SpywareBlaster
12) Lock Down IE
13) Reboot
14) Manually clean up any remnants with the help of HijackThis
15) Install and configure Kerio PF

It takes longer than is typically necessary of a simple cleanup, but so far I haven't run into anything that couldn't be fixed in such a manner. Most importantly however, it doesn't cost a dime. I keep both a USB flash drive and a CD on hand with all of the programs and updates I need as well as some other fallback programs (some pre-installed directly on the CD/flash drive), so if the infected machine is unable to connect for downloads/updates it won't slow me down. It also helps that IE is not needed when loading everything from the CD or flash drive.

Of all the machines I have used this on, only those of the incedibly stupid have had problems resurface, while most have run clean for a year or more. I use the same preventative measures on my own PC and have never picked up any spyware/malware.

...I use Lavasoft's Ad-Aware SE Professional in combination with Spybot - Search & Destroy, they keep my PC spyware free.

It's nice that they acknowledge the existence of free solutions ("freeware" anti-spyware programs), such as (my personal fave) Spybot Search & Destroy. I would feel a whole lot better about this article if it would actually compare these expensive commercial programs to the whole playing field of contenders. Leaving out the least expensive solutions (free ones) leaves this article wanting.

1. Ad-Aware SE
2. Spybot Search & Destroy
3. SpywareBlaster
4. Microsoft Anti-Spyware
5. Some Anti-Virus Program that you like (at my work, we install Norton even though it is a resource hog, but never Norton Internet Security since it eventually always fucks a computer up)

Set your Anti-virus program to scan at least weekly, and automatically update itself, Update and sca with Ad-Aware and Spybot weekly at a minimum, and update and protect with SpywareBlaster weekly at a minimum.

It is absolutely ridiculous that a person should have to do this to keep their computer running decently. We get so many Windows machines in the shop that it isn't even funny, but thusfar, whenever we have managed to convince someone to upgrade to a MacOS X machine (Typically when their Dell, Compaq, HP, E-Machines has a motherboard failure). They have came back completely excited and astonished that they don't really have to worry about spyware and viruses so much.

My reccomendation on keeping your WIndows XP machine in top performance. Go buy a high-end Mac and run VirtualPC if it can run whatever program you NEED to run (Note: Games do not count), if you cannot run your Prorgram under VPC, buy a low-end PC and keep it off the network.

I have a few programs that atleast help a little to secure windows.

I run them when I install windows, or when I clean other people's computers.

UnPlug n' Pray
http://www.grc.com.nyud.net:8090/unpnp/unpnp.htm
DCOMbobulator
http://www.grc.com.nyud.net:8090/dcom/
Shoot The Messenger
http://www.grc.com.nyud.net:8090/stm/shootthemesse nger.htm
XP Antispy
http://www.xp-antispy.org.nyud.net:8090/
SafeXP
http://www.theorica.net.nyud.net:8090/safexp.htm
Xpy
http://xpy.whyeye.org.nyud.net:8090/
BugOFF
http://www.spywareinfo.com.nyud.net:8090/~merijn/

The above help clean up several things I find to be disconcerting in XP. Things I'd rather not be enabled.
And with the above, I have had few problems. I have actually been better off. Hence, why I recommend them.
Still, I doubt I'd want the un pc savvy or the mentally retarded using teh above and muckign with their PC so much it won't boot. So, user beware.

And to harden the IP stack, there's Harden-IT
http://www.sniff-em.com.nyud.net:8090/hardenit.sht ml

Windows Configurator can also enable/disable certain things, as above. Have not used it yet, but just found out I had it installed.
http://home.autocom.pl.nyud.net:8090/mrowka/freewa re/wd.html
And then there's also TuneXP
http://www.driverheaven.net.nyud.net:8090/dforce/
It has several other options that may make your windows experience more enjoyable, and/or safe.
And of course there's FreshUI, which you can change how windows looks and reacts.
I guess its much like TweakUI.

And because IE is a real bitch, and even opera and firefox can get bitchy at times, I always use...
The Proxomitron
The best damned thing to happen to web browsing, EVAR!
Block popups, banners, browser hijacks, flash, javascript, web bugs, tons of things. Highly configurable, great for most anything.
Never knew how I got by without it before. I never browse without it now.
http://www.proxomitron.info.nyud.net:8090/
I also have it patched to make it look nicer. Little things can do so much.
http://www.xs4all.nl.nyud.net:8090/~vsetten/prox/
And I also religiously use The Gryphen's filter pack. Haven't found a better set yet. :D
http://www.users.on.net.nyud.net:8090/~grypen/Down loads/?M=D (look for "proxofilterset####" where #### is the newest date. A self extracting file, which overwrites the config files, and sets proxomitron to start on boot.

Also first up when I install windows is a thorough Spybot Search & Destroy and Adaware cleaning.
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html
http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/
Not that there'd be anything there, already. But a good once through is nice.
Then, within Spybot I go to Immunize and help lock down my system.
I then get SpywareBlaster and do the same.
http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.htm l

With the above programs (Adaware

I'm assuming you are using the 'free' versions of this software, otherwise igore the rest of this message!

Bearing in mind you are a non-commercial organization - and a worthy one - I would double check the licenses for these as far as educational and non-commercial organizational use is concerned. And perhaps a complimentary email to vendors for clarification where necessary?

SpywareBlaster looks OK for teachers.

Spybot I would confirm with author. They seem 'edu' friendly, from their tone.

AVG License is perhaps slightly ambiguous in this case. Schools are non-commercial but they are 'Organizations'.

Ad-Aware not free for educational use.

You may have omitted your firewall of choice but most of them have similar organizational clauses. I think Outpost Free may be OK.

Sounds more like spyware than a virus. The difference is that viruses are written by individuals, while spyware is written by corporations. Anti-virus applications don't remove spyware because the corporations that write spyware would sue them. You want Spybot Search & Destroy or some analogue.

Also, you should find a utility for digging through startup items. Stuff like FindFast and Office Startup needs to be eradicated. I'd recommend X-Setup, but it seems to have turned into shareware since the last time I had a use for it.

It's not FOSS, but as far as I'm aware of (which admittedly isn't that far), there is no big company behind SpyBot S&D, at least. It also offers an option to immunise IE by blocking known bad webpages, which I think is an important option even when you don't run IE as your default browser - there are many apps that embed it. Generally, the problem of unjustified whitelisting of spyware can be solved by running more than one tool. It's a crutch, of course, but it works; what one vendor was bribed to gloss over, another vendor will pick up.

What, no spybot S&D? Aside from the DSO exploit bug (which was since fixed), it's worked great for a long time. Plus, it's free! (Whereas Ad-aware wants you to buy it before letting you use the better features).

I never ran Microsoft Antispyware; it's like asking the wolf to guard the sheep. I use the following free applications instead:

Spybot Search & Destroy: http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html

Ad-Aware: http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/

I have never relied on a single software package to keep my computer virus/spyware/adware/whatever free. I use three products. AVG anti-virus is running right now and it updates at least once a day and does a scan every morning at 3am. Also through the course of the day I run Adaware http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/ which is free for personal use. Also installed on my computer is SpyBot S&D http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html another freebie.

Between these three products and routine updates from windows update and only using Firefox, I honestly cannot remember the last time I had a problem with adware etc. I find it rather disturbing that people put their trust in one single software package to keep their systems clean. Is it not good practice to keep backups in multiple locations? Why then would we not have redundant measures for cleaning a system? Other than the anti-virus running in the background these programs use system resources only when loaded and running. Otherwise they sit on my hard drive and take up a fraction of a fraction of my total space.

• Replacement for Microsoft anti-spyware
• Replacement for Microsoft anti-virus
• Replacement for Microsoft firewall

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Why did they name the worm WORM SPYBOT.ID? Won't they run into copyright trouble with Spybot the Anti-Spyware company?
What if a worm was named Windows XP or Longhorn, or even Linux?

I've got one Windows machine, running 2K Pro, and hiding somewhere on it is ISTsvc.exe. Pesky little bugger. Can't seem to get rid of it, but I can keep it contained with:
AdAware
Spybot Search and Destroy
SpywareBlaster
and
F-Prot Antivirus, which actually does a good job all by itself.
I tried the Symantec Istbar removal tool, but to no avail. I might try digging around in the registry again, but last time I did that it didn't work either.

Any suggestions, anyone?

(tig)

"An hour. Seriously? I don't know if I've spent an hour /total/ removing spyware."

Well i work for a fair sized company i would say that a typical mywebsearch, comet cursor, 180solutions, screensaver inc, etc spyware infection takes about 20 minutes to disinfect.

for this i would be using
hijack this
spybot search and destroy
and the microsoft anti spyware

Oh and the most important thing is to do it from SAFE MODE with network. I would recomend installing and running all those tools from safe mode. This includes downloading the updates. The only exception would be the microsoft one since it needs WMI to install which does not work in safemode.

Don't use just AdAware; Spybot and MS Anti-Spyware (which runs on 2K) have assisted me much in clearing out istbar from the systems of people who're infested by it. If you know Windows enough, HijackThis can help you with manual spyware clearing.

And switch away from IE - IE on Win2K is still unsafe as hell (not all of the XPSP2 updates have been backported). You're almost certainly regularly going to a website with ISTbar exploit installer, hence the reinstallation. Firefox or Opera.

spyware is already coming to mobile phones, and guess who's operating system is being exploited ? its not Windows this time

In the past months, our developers have prepared Spybot-S&D for the next platform that is currently getting endangered. Spybot-S&D for Symbian cell phones is sitting here on our hard disks, and we planed to release it as RCs along with the 1.4 RCs, and - if everything runs smooth - the final along with the Spybot-S&D 1.4 for Windows final.

from the Fantastic SpyBot S&D home page

SpyBot S&D runs fine from a thumbdrive, which tends to come in handy.

But most users are far more comfortable with something approaching standard widgets. Even with games. Sure, the interface for playing the game will vary between games, but that doesn't mean that most games aren't closed by the big red X in the right hand corner.

If you are going off of USER INSTALLED BASE (as opposed to installed user base) I'd wager that most games actually follow the standard Windows Widget set in this case. You have to remember that most users don't actually play DOOM3 and the like. Anything full screen is really for the hard-core gamers. Most users play games like Snood and Zuma. Maybe some new version of solitaire that their nephew bought them for Christmas.

This goes moreso for programs actually used, versus installed. I'd be willing to bet that THE most used program on an average computer is Iexplore.exe, followed by the cluster of Minesweeper and The Card Games (solitaire, free cell, spider solitaire, hearts.)

And every time I find some program I really like that has a sort of non-standard widget set, I often times soon find a program with the same functionality that I love using which uses standard widgets.

Hmm... I was just going to go prove that to myself before posting. When I tried to open Spybot and for some reason my link pointed to blindman.exe which, according to spybot's home page, it does absolutely nothing. So, normally I'd trim the post down a bit at this point, make stuff more relevant, but... grr. Now a program that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is definately a program that can get away with a non-standard widget set. And I'm gonna go figure out what changed that this program's getting called instead of, you know, spybot. I bet it was MS Anti-Spyware. I'd better get out my tin-foil hat and lucky chiken!

Run Ad-Aware

Run Spybot

fight ticket for parking meter that expired while you went through the windows routine at the atm

Rinse

Reboot

Repeat

Get cash?

well since this is windows... rename the icon from "Firefox" to "Internet" or possibly even "Internet Explorer" (likewise "Thunderbird" to "EMail" or "Outlook")*. As long as the LnF is similar it should be good enough. You ought to realise that she probably never noticed the finer details in which they differ

Also have you considered (making the shortcuts use the IE & Outlook icons || making the existing shortcuts point to Thunderbird & IE) ?

Oh, and don't forget to install SpyBot.

* actually it'd probably be even more helpful to leave it as Internet and EMail sicne it immediately tells her what they do.

Hello,

I too have been running the beta test version of Microsoft Antispyware too and when I looked on my PC and found the ERRORS.LOG and CLEANERS.LOG in the installation directory. They were 8KB and 2KB, respectively. To contrast, Spybot - Search & Destroy had 188KB of logs in its \LOGS directory and Ad-aware had 1.4MB (although these seemed mostly to be related to installation), so perhaps it is an issue with your computer's configuration? Either that, or perhaps it found malicious software and removed it--something my installation did not.

The program is still in beta, so support isn't available through normal Microsoft channels, here is the link to the support newsgroup.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

We've looked hard at the nature of this problem, and made a decision that this anti-spyware capability will become something that's available at no additional charge for Windows users
--Bill Gates

Yes, its called AdAware and SpyBot S&D. Free spyware killing tools on Windows has little to do with MS putting one out for free.

the maker of hijackthis has a website at http://www.merijn.org/

the AC gave a url for spybot... i usually use http://www.safer-networking.org/

Try this one.

When cleaning a PC I tend to use Spybot, AdAware, Startup.exe (don't know where this comes from) and Hijack this.

I'm sure if you have a read through the rest of the comments you will find some other useful stuff, but these four are golden. Especially if you have a legit copy of AdAware Pro with AdWatch in.
AdWatch can cause confusion for (l)users, being another box that pops up for them to think about, but on your system it is the canine's testicles.

* Note:
There is a huge collection of Spyware tools hosted @ MajorGeeks.com, where I downloaded AdAware from.

A scan by Ad-Aware SE with current definitions reveals no Cydoor, but a scan with Spybot S&D does.

Installed eXeem, ran SS&D, nuked Cydoor, and all is happy again. :)

Lavasoft's Ad-Aware -- the freeware version is all you need for scanning purposes, but the professional version comes with Ad-Watch (popup and spyware blocker).

Spybot Search & Destroy -- another good (and free) spyware scanner that also "immunizes" Internet Explorer from certain well-known spyware and browser hacks.

Javacool Spyware Blaster -- another free spy-fighter that protects Internet Explorer from any malicious ActiveX code. You can also block Flash ads if you choose.

Antivirus app of your choice -- any free anti-virus app should do the trick, but if you already have Norton or McAfee you're in great shape.

If you have XP SP2 -- with SP2 installed, set the popup blocker to its highest blocking setting, and just hold Ctrl any time your surfing requires a popup.

Your #5 is completely full of crap and wrong. Spywareblaster, Spybot S&D and Adaware SE are all excellent apps to deal with spyware, and if you are running a compatible version of Windows, add in Microsoft Anti-Spyware (beta).

As for can't get spyware off of a computer. LOL LOL LOL I do this EVERY SINGLE DAY and it is not only NOT that difficult using the tools I mentioned, but some other additions generally stop it.

1) Clean at LEAST these temp files regularly:
C:\Windows\Temp C:\Temporary Internet Files
C:\Documents and Setings\-usernmae-\Local Settings\Temp
C:\Documents and Setings\-usernmae-\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files

2) Turn OFF Virus Re^H^H^H^H^H System Restore and delete the _Restore directory

3) Use Firefox instead of Internet Explorer

And for even better success in keeping spyware off of your computer (again for the non-technical) use a Mac...

I'm starting to ask people for permission to set up their boxes to dual-boot to Linux. Linux is so usable now that, unless there's a specific application that they can't get an equivalent on Linux. I really don't see much need for most home users to stay with MS Windows.

I just had NAV2005 installed on a friend's infected PC and it did Virus and Spywares at the same time. This and Ad-Aware seems a good solution which

Spybot and SpywareBlaster are still a better combo. Spybot scans while SpywareBlaster prevents the spyware in the first place. SpywareBlaster will work with IE _and_ Firefox. Will this offering from MS help protect non-IE browsers?

...but there's already plenty of free alternatives out there. Also, just stop using Internet Explorer. That move right there will cut down at least 90% of all spyware/adware.

1. Get a copy of Spybot

2. Run it on all your PC's. Statistically each PC will have on average 28 pieces of spyware on it.

3. DO NOT FIX THE PROBLEMS!!! They are now evidence!

4. Carefully research each piece of spyware found by Spybot to see if you can sue the makers for $1000 each.

5. If you find anything, call your lawyer.

6. Profit!

http://www.free-av.com/
http://www.lavasoftusa.com/
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html

You can continue to use free applications to do the work for you.

Not according to their website.
Spybot S & D is Windows only. It's still a great tool though.

I can't speak for bersl2, but I think you may have mistaken his point.

When Stallman originated (ie, named) the Free Software movement in '84, he did it for political reasons. Later, ESR and others said that if people want this stuff to be accepted in corporate society, they need to focus on practical and not political ideals. Political statements make suits nervous. (If you were on slashdot, certain Usenet groups, etc in '98 or so, you saw the discussions.)

One big sticking point was the name. "Free software" had two problems. First, ESR &co wanted to get away from the whole "Freedom!" issue, as I described.

Second, it's too easy to think "free" as in "free beer", not "free speech". (I first saw that meme at about the same time, I think.) When people think "free" in that sense, they may think of the plethora of stuff on Tucows etc that cost $0, but have no source. Since source access, modification, and distribution are a big part of what this new movement was about, they didn't want the free-as-in-beer association to be part of the new name either.

Hence, "open source" became the new term. So what bersl2 said has some merit: one big reason for coining the term "open source" is because ESR &co didn't want people to think that things like Spybot S&D were part of this new movement.

From a practical point of view, yes, the two movements generally support the same set of software. The guidelines are similar. But the philosophies are different, and those that care about the philosophy (such as Stallman) distinguish between the two, sometimes more subtly than others.

But the issue of unmodifiable source was one of the reasons that the name "Open Source" was formed: they wanted it, and felt that the term "free software" didn't emphasize that point enough.

How to help prevent spam/viruses. Most of this information is common knowlege for the IT savy but can be a good cluestick for the relatives.
FireFox http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ is a web browser that is much more secure then Internet Explorer. I have been using it for many
months now, it is very stable and has a small fraction of the security problems found in IE.
Ad-Aware http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/ is a spyware finding and removal tool. This is one of the best anti-spy ware programs available and should be run at least twice a week.
Spy-Bot http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html is an excellent compliment to AdAware and should be run also twice a week. The combination of both Adaware and SpyBot make for great security.
Trend Micro http://housecall.antivirus.com/housecall/start_cor p.asp has a free online virus scanner that I run once a week. It has found viruses that Norton did not detect.
Microsoft's windows update http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ should be
checked often to patch your operating system. I would suggest you install the updates.
Zone Alarm http://www.zonealarm.com/store/content/company/zap _za_grid.jsp If you do not have a Firewall router at home or are using dialup. Make sure you have some sort of firewall running on your machine. This one is pretty good and free.

Here is a mini guide I wrote up on how to prevent from getting spam.
1. Do not give out your work email address to anyone not work related. Do not give it out to relatives.
2. Do not use your primary email address to sign up for things online, use a email from hotmail or gmail.
3. DO not use your work/primary email to post on message boards or USENET unless they are closed and protected forums.
4. Do not sign up for free giveaways, even if they are work related.
5. Do *NOT* forward jokes or other such emails. Discourage people from forwarding them to you. These emails hold a massive list of email addresses and will eventually end up in the hands of spammers.
6. Do *NOT* reply to any spam asking to be removed or to "unsubscribe." It just guarantees that you will get more spam as you have confirmed it is a
valid account.
7. Do not buy anything form a spam email. This only encourages the practice.
8. If you get spam in Outlook, go to "File", then "Work Offline" and then delete the email messages. Selecting the email message for deleting opens
it, this can cause a virus to be downloaded or download pictures that have unique tag. With the unique image tag, a spammer can tell when you
opened the email and that your account is valid. By using the "Work Offline" mode, no images will be opened.

You can find these links at my site http://www.friendsglobal.com/

Not really true. Some CWS variants are really really hard to remove (in extreme cases, using the oxymoronically-named HackerDefender rootkit to disguise itself, plus hide and shut down CWShredder, AdAware, Spybot S&D et al when you try to install them), but everything is possible.

Basically, if CWShredder, Spybot and AdAware don't work for you, and you can't see anything on your HijackThis! log, first step is to search on the now slightly outdated CWS Chronicles and then on many of the excellent anti-spyware forums out there, all of which have encountered more variants of CWS than you could ever imagine. If you can't find someone else with the same problem, then post your HJT logs and other stuff and someone should be able to help you.

These parasites (it's not all spyware anymore) are now really, really, really out of hand - the CWS people, especially, but there's even worse people out there - and something needs to be done to stop them. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen anytime soon - since the companies that make most of these are "legitimate businesses", as opposed to idiot teenagers with Visual Basic. Shame.

file sharing

game, specifically the only one your girlfriend/mother/mother in law probably cares about.
more games
games

Of course, this is kind of silly, because if you're worried about saving money you're not playing games on a PC or a Mac. "Let's see, I can buy a whole Playstation 2 with a couple of nice games for $200, or I can buy a new video card for for $200 so I can play Doom 3". PC's are excellent gaming platforms, but they are nowhere near as cost effective as any of the console systems. The games, especially when new, cost about the same (if the PC version isn't a little more expensive). It's almost cheaper to have one each of the "big three" consoles than try to keep PC hardware up to spec for playing the newest video games over any given 5 year span. PC's are also nice, open systems, so for online gaming you get access to the wide world of cheaters, where console games at least have some semblance of sofware control. PC games will look nicer, and probably be a little more of a rich experience, but as far as cost-effective, a PC is really far down.

The Windows PC can't do this, at least without buying expensive software. GarageBand comes with a new Mac, and this is also bundled into a new Mac. The ability to painlessly sync my phone and my computer's contact list is pretty valuable. And I can run most other software too, because I've got X11.

Now, admittedly there are lots of things you can't get to work on a Mac. this isn't available, neither is this, or this, or this. As a side effect, neither this nor this is available on the Mac. So, ya know, you're right, there's a lot of stuff that is much harder to do on my Mac than on my Windows PC, like being a Spambot and reporting my personal information to advertisers.

You insensitive clod, not all people want NT 4 SP2 on their win 98 boxes.

Seriously though, the first thing which goes on is the latest McAfee Stinger. When that's wiped out most of the viruses, I uninstall their out-of-date Norton - so many people don't realise that the major antivirus vendors are on a rental model and just buy the product and expect it to last forever. Then Avast! Personal Edition goes on, and the PC is fully scanned. After that comes Spybot and Ad-Aware. I use both because each product has its stregths and weaknesses. All of this is done form a CD burnt with the latest patterns so no internet connectivity happens until their PC has been cleaned. And then Sygate Personal Firewall completes the mix of security products.

After that comes Thunderbird and Firefox, The GIMP and Audacity (if they are into that sort of thing. And of course we musn't forget IrfanView.

No, it's not free (open source) software.

Solution: stick to vendors that can be trusted. Use Spybot and Ad-Aware.

Yeah, my other computer is Linux too. So what?

The several hours to install all that stuff included a lot of time wandering away from the computer while it took forever to do who knows what and download various updates (and sit like a brick waiting for user input). 25MB of updates just for the preinstalled Norton software and it made me reboot no less than six (6) times during that process, so every time you go back to the computer it's sitting there like a lump waiting for you to click "reboot". Just because you aren't around doesn't make the time go any faster. It usually makes the whole process slower since you aren't there to click every unnecessary dialog that pops up.

The time also included Spybot S&D, Adaware, Spyware Blaster, Norton's firewall, and configuration of the various options in each application to make them actually do what they needed to do without user intervention, which the owners were not capable of. Plus configuration of three different desktops for the people who would be using the computer, so they can keep all their files and settings separate. The 3-5 minute login/logout/reboot processes must have ended up adding an hour or more to my time. After the RAM upgrade it logs in/out in like 20-30 seconds. Still slower than a Mac at less than one quarter the "speed".

Instant on? Any fool knows desktop computers aren't instant on. No need to be facetious or sarcastic. But when someone buys a brand new 2.8GHz computer with 256MB RAM and it boots up and switches between users slower than an old 333MHz with 32MB I have at home, I find it upsetting and ridiculous. A 2.8GHz computer should be fast, especially when it's not running anything. The extra 512 made a lot of the problem go away, but it shouldn't have been necessary, and it added to the base cost of the computer. Before the RAM upgrade it was not "perfectly usable", it was dog slow, like their 5-year-old PC which runs Win98 and is basically dying. For further comparison I've also seen an ancient 350MHz iMac running Mac OS X and it is perfectly usable and was even before we upgraded its memory. Booting up and logging in and out are all reasonably quick, and that computer was new in 1999.

Remember what they say about assumptions. I said "we" there because "we" as a group decided that she should invest another $100 with Crucial.com and get another 512MB stick of RAM. It turned out to be a good decision, since it made the computer "perfectly usable". Before that it was not "ok", which was the whole point. It was so slow it made me and the owners think that a lot of cash had just been wasted on a piece of junk.

I don't buy PCs. The next computer I do buy will be a Mac. Also, you can almost always get cheaper RAM upgrades from someplace like Crucial.com rather than buying from the OEM. Yes, you can even get RAM upgrades for Macs there, you don't have to buy everything from Apple.

Then use Linux. I wasn't talking about 'the total cost of ownership', just the initial cost of purchasing one from Dell and Gateway vs. other PC manufactures.

I was just making a comment that I didn't think base cost was the whole story. It wasn't aimed directly at you, but at anyone who might read it as they browse the comments attached to this story. I raised a separate issue for consideration by others. Ask yourself if it was really necessary to respond by talking to me like I'm an idiot.

You may also want to read that link about Dell's customer service that you gave me, funny thing is I see a lot of hardware problems being discussed. Hard drives dying after a week, things like that.

If you're computers are in a Windows domain, why not have all domain computers run the spyware program automatically? Pretty sure this could be scheduled utilizing some sort of domain policy. I know spybot has many command line switches, so you could run it everyday without the user noticing. Spybot command line switches

I think it's funny that the people complaining about Spyware use SlashDot which often serves DoubleClick ads. And the author who links to PCWorld which has a few DoubleClick and Avenue A, Inc. ads. The DoubleClick threat as defined by SpyBot reads, "Use information about your web surfing... that could include any information, like accounts and passwords." The threat for Avenue A, Inc. reads "They say they no longer do tracking."

I think it's funny that the people complaining about Spyware use SlashDot which often serves DoubleClick ads. And the author who links to PCWorld which has a few DoubleClick and Avenue A, Inc. ads. The DoubleClick threat as defined by SpyBot reads, "Use information about your web surfing... that could include any information, like accounts and passwords." The threat for Avenue A, Inc. reads "They say they no longer do tracking."