Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft May Charge for Security Tools
rscrawford writes "CNN reports that Microsoft may charge extra for security software. So first they edge their competition out of the browser market, then they tie IE into the OS so tightly that a crash in IE can crash the computer, and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health, and now they want to CHARGE users to fix it?"
Step 1: write buggy software
Step 2: Sell fixs
Step 3: Profit!
So THAT'S what Step two is. =P
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
5. Profit!
Windows isn't the problem. the problem is you.
If Microsoft were to hire on the Verizon Wireless guy, they could have him walking across the country asking "Can I screw you now?"
Yeah, sure, if starting the computer is human error. It takes what, five minutes or less, for an XP box to get riddled with viruses, Trojans, etc.? The error is Microsoft didn't ship an operating system that could remotely be considered secure. You can't connect to the network to download SP2 without risking the computer. Where's the sense in this? Where's the user error?
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
And they don't see a conflict of interest here? Exactly what incentive would they have to fix security holes which are allowing malware into the machine in the first place if they are selling other products to "block" these kinds of attacks, or are they planning on charging for patches?
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
I mean, they were buying up security competitors as recently as Wednesday! Wouldn't that be a bit too blatant? Are they really trying to monopolize the desktop security market, or are they just trying to help cover costs in what is going to prove to be a very, very expensive area (once they start getting sued for having such a shoddy, insecure product)
Newsflash: Now all consumers are going to lose a peety weety bitty amount of greenback over security...say....$999? ...
what else is new?
What balls!
What a huge, big, heavy set of balls this company has.
Hey, let's kick them!
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
That's the plan.... what's the problem? :^)
If they can make a shitload of money out of any marketting strategy, Microsoft will do anything in their power to sell the most of anything and make profit.
Yes it is stupid. Users/companies pay for licenses of Windows which is somewhat costly when you compare what other solutions can do for a fraction of a price (Linux?!) and on top of that, they want to potentially sell you crap so their crap can be more secure using the previous crap. What a load of crap.
The only thing in this world I have found to be sleazier than lawyers are software salesmen. This isnt isnt a new idea from Microsoft... IBM did it for years with mainframe releases. You have to have a service contract to get the updates to fix the bugs.
This problem of releasing buggy software and charging for fixes is inherent in the software world.
Fire in the hands of the village idiot is no tool, but a weapon of mass destruction
Step 4: Post a dupe to Slashdot
Security fixes are going to be free.
The question is whether or not the AV and/or AS tools are going to be free.
Think of it as a choice - you can put them in the OS (so they'll be "free") at the cost of adding more bloatware (important bloatware, but bloatware) to the OS.
Or they can fix the @#$@#$ security holes that the spyware vendors are using to install their software and sell anti-spyware software to the dumb users who are stupid enough to download kazaa.
It's not like giant's antispyware software was EVER free...
See? is end-user fault all those security problems, they must pay!
It's no different to the toll road operator where I live that puts their tolls up by the maximum permitted year after year without any explanation at all - the same one who quite frequently refuses to explain their actions for unusual lane closures (usually during rush hour) with no readily apparent reason, who only pays refunds for their mistakes when the media gets hold of the story. Quite simply, if you want to get through my city quickly and easily, you have no choice.
(free "well done" to whomever identifies the city I live in and the toll operator I'm referring to)
I did buy stock, and it's gone up 50% since I bought it. Thank you.
You can continue to use free applications to do the work for you.
Look at it this way. They bought an adware company because the see that this is a problem. If they suddenly "bundled" an adware solution, the zealots would say they are trying to drive adaware and spybot out of the market. But since they are selling the solution and hence giving the customers choice, they are trying to screw the customers. No matter how secure they make the OS, there WILL be people who will run as admins and click "yes" to everything. These are the solutions that they are going to sell.
It isn't the first time they've had security software either. Anyone remember MSAV.exe?
I don't know why anyone is surprised or complaining. Doesn't the public pay for virus protection ? All the same arguments apply. Except M$oft doesn't own a virus protection company (or do they ?)
Something from the article rubbed me the wrong way:
"Spyware usually gets on your computer through human error," said Marc Maiffret of eEye Digital Security Inc., which regularly discovers serious Windows flaws.
First.. a confession: My name is kRYPT, and I used to use Internet Explorer. I used to keep it patched, and updated. I browsed on High Security. I ran Spybot S&D and Adaware regularly, and TeaTimer always.
Spyware STILL got in. Every Spybot scan would regularly reveal something nasty (normally DSO or other IE Exploits).
Perhaps it's true that most Spyware is the result of user action (such as installing shady "free" smiley-enhancing software), but _lots_ of the Spyware out there is simply a direct result of using IE.
PS: I see the spyware people are trying to attack Firefox too.. see cracks.am for an example. However, in Firefox, a nice dialog pops up, makes it perfectly clear the code that's being requested to run is unsigned and unvalidated, and makes you wait for 2 seconds before you have the chance to accept or deny installing it.
DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!
There are already good anti-spyware solutions available for home-users (ie Ad-aware, etc.), and I can't imagine home users shelling out a lot of money when they can get a personal version of Ad-aware for free. I suppose Microsoft is going to be targetting corporate users, but if their solutions aren't much better than companies like Ad-Aware (hopefully) corporations will go with competitors. But then again, they might just choose Microsoft because it seems like the "right thing to do" (that is, MS makes the OS, so OBVIOUSLY they should go with MS because it'll "work better" together).
Then again, if the MS anti-spyware is moderately priced and a lot of home-users do buy it, it may serve to drive the gap between richer vs poorer computer users (home users who shell out big bucks for a loaded Windows box vs users who pay a couple hundred for one of those Linux PCs that Walmart and others are selling).
Put Linux or FreeBSD on that machine right NOW!
Given there XP firewall goof (Windows Firewall in Windows XP SP2 can sometimes interpret the whole Internet to be a local subnet for dial up users.), who here is eager to use, much less buy MS Security Software?
Once MS starts writing actual security software that works, then and only then should they consider charging for it.
More than anyone or anything else, Microsoft will become the major force pushing users to Linux.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I overrode the user agent string which was must have caused Google to serve pages using a western coding.
Never mind about the character encoding thing. Google groups still sucks, though.
"CNN reports that Microsoft may charge extra for security software. So first they edge their competition out of the browser market, then they tie IE into the OS so tightly that a crash in IE can crash the computer, and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health, and now they want to CHARGE users to fix it?"
News posts are becoming more and more like trolls...
That "click" is the sound of my slashdot bookmark moving from my news folder into my entertainment folder.
Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
If it was for free, this very same front-page article would be accompanied with some conspiratorial anti-trust spin. There is no way MS can win on this.
This story summary takes the cake.
Are we, as Slashdot readers, supposed to be upset when Microsoft incorporates programs into Windows, or are we supposed to be upset when Microsoft sells additional programs?
Isn't this just the kind of action we have been asking for? Instead of abusing their monopoly by giving away products (i.e. IE) it looks like Microsoft is actually selling a product.
How dare they!
Before someone replies with a line like "It's funny that M$ is selling an additional product to fix their own broken software." I want to mention that many many spyware programs do not exploit Windows, but rather exploit gullible users..
I dub thee... Sir Phobos, Knight of Mars, Beater of Ass.
Trust me MS would love to give it away free, but they cant or they'll run into even more anti-trust action, especially if their anti-virus, etc.. is as buggy as ie. No by charging they'll have to compete on a quasi-level playing field. Therefore if their code stinks they will suffer, if its good it will sell and force the industry to improve - this is how competition is SUPPOSSED to work.
Sorry, english is not my mother tongue
Microsoft eventually wants all customers on a subscription model. With the way things are currently, they have to provide free security updates to keep worms from spreading. If they forced you to pay every 2 years, with windows ceasing to work altogether after these 2 years were up, they would keep getting paid.
Besides, all businesses in today's world want subscription models, not one time purchases. Managers like quarterly profits, which are accomplished very nicely by lots of regularly purchasing customers. It's also the way almost all business software is - so it only makes sense to push it into the consumer market. It's not just MS doing this in the business market... think novell, red hat... you're paying for updates and support. The bad thing about MS is their monopoly, not necessarily their business model.
--
Don't change your browser, make IE secure
Guessing from your post... you don't use Windows.... so: What do you care?
Microsoft's message is clear -- buy our software, and we'll hold you hostage with it. Thank god for Gnu, Linux, and BSD.
But really, we cry "unfair" over what they did to Netscape. Rightly so; it was unfair. If they had sold IE as a separate product, it wouldn't have been unfair. So now they sell this stuff as a separate product. They're not bundling. So what's the problem?
And there's another way this is good: TCO studies. The more extra charges you have to have from Microsoft to have a working product, the better TCO Linux has by comparison. (That is, if it's an honest comparison. But instead, what we'll probably see is bogus TCO "studies" where Microsoft looks good, but it omits the security stuff. Then when you go to actually buy it, there's these extra costs, like the auto dealers do with "dealer prep".)
and I remind them that, as a trusted geek, I will be useful in recruiting others to toil in their underground spyware mines.
MOUNT TAPE U1439 ON B3, NO RING
After reading such a thoughtful, nonbiased, objective article submission, I'm left at a loss as to how to respond with my own subjective opinion without ruining the objectivity laid down by this stunning example of research and fact.
Not at all. The word "help" is used in the sense of "Hi. We're from Microsoft and we're here to help... ourselves."
Even a longtime MS user like myself...
I've been an advocate for MS software and OS's for some time now, but the prospect of charging to fix something that is a result of many of the flaws in their software just pisses me off!
It's really unfortunate that Linux isn't viable on the desktop yet because this would likely be the straw that breaks this camel's back.
Unfortunately, Linux is not ready for the desktop yet, and please, save your fingers from typing because I have been evaluating distros for the desktop for many years now, the most recent being Mandrake 10.0 and Fedora Core 3. Although there is slow and steady progress, Linux for the desktop still sucks compared to WinXP.
For now, for me and my clients, a firewalled network behind which lives a well patched XP machine (preferrably kept up to date with SUS) with Firefox, Spybot S&D (with Tea Timer), Ad Aware, Symantec AV corporate and (for my clients), the daily use account does not have administrator privileges.
This will keep most any PC free from spyware and cruft and keep users happy.
You need people like me so you can point your fucking fingers, and say "that's the bad guy."
Let's not call this "security software", Microsoft; remember, software should simply be secure. If you have to add a qualifier like this, guess what: you're saying most of your software has nothing to do with security, and this special extra software, for extra charge, provides the security "feature".
These terminology differences really point to a philosophical difference at Microsoft, which is the root of all their problems. They really don't understand. Why should we think they ever will, at any price?
"Microsoft killed my company, I hold a personal grudge. I don't use Microsoft products and neither should you."-JWZ
What makes you think these same companies wont warez these tools. If they can write spam,viruses and malware they sure can hack these tools so that it doesnt phone back to redmond with phone number and mailing address.
What is this thing called windows? Can I run it on my watch? If I install it on my shoe can it make me walk faster?
If I'm a new customer, can I get a large discount?
Yeah cause people that reverse engineer software to determine the maximum weakness of the browser would never think to get a pirated copy of the tools from the vast asian black market for software that doesn't exist.
Open Source Java DAO Generator
MS charges a fee for a necessary tool: "Charging for this? What a ripoff!" (even though their major competitors charge a fee for similar tools)
Yes, that money may have been better spent in actually fixing the items that need these security tools, but it seems like they can't win either way.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
And for only $59.99 we'll show you how serious we are.
*DrugCheese rants*
Does anyone know if MS considers IE as a free (as in cost) program or if it considers it part of the OS? I could see where they could argue that because IE is a "free" program that you would have to pay for support and other "features". But if they consider it to be part of the OS then they are really just shafting people. Or how about this question: If Dell includes a "Free" printer with your Dell computer (yeah yeah, it really isnt free with the cable and ink is it? just pretend its free), and it breaks, do they repair it for free? I would guess yes. But I'm not really comparing apples to apples here. Just something to think about i guess.
Yep, they are going for customers worried about growing threats from viruses, hacker attacks, spam e-mails and spyware.
If I don't use windows, does that mean that I'm worried about the above?
This is kinda stupid. MS is trying (and they suceed with it) to make an OS aviable to every non-tech person to operate - OK - this is OK for me. But then why they blame people that they don't know shit about computing? People do not know shit - they bought Windows and wish to have their job (be it surfing net) done. I can take the same user surifng net on Windows with MSIE and on Linux with (also) MSIE. Guess which platform will be crawled to death by spyware... But where is user error?! Since the same user will be using the same software... Oh. It is the platform!
:>, we also host some applications which are Firefox only) on Windows machine, antivirus and spybot for spyware removal running at 4AM and systems are clear...
Well Linux example is quite hardcore. Usualy I put Mozilla Firefox combined with Mozilla Firebird (I've made it a company policy
But where is user error?
Apple did this a lot in the '80s so they wouldn't tick off ISVs. They even went so far as to cripple their hard-disk formatting utility to only work with their drives, so utility vendors could make a living.
Maybe Microsoft doesn't want to tick off the commercial anti-spyware tool vendors.
Maybe, just maybe, they want to leave the door open for zero-cost or donation-supported anti-spyware vendors like Spybot Search & Destroy. Nahh, Balmer & Co. aren't that altruistic.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Free alternatives DO exist, although many casual users don't know it. Things like Firefox, AVG, Zone Alarm, eTrust EZ Guard, etc... And it's companies like Best Buy and their "Geek Squad" who's unknowingly Microsoft's best partner, because instead of offering free solutions, they offer costly, expensive solutions, never telling the customer that there are other ways.
The ideal software company would create a package that does not nag the end-user but rather assists him as much as possible in the original suite. An OS has the intent to work optimally under its circumstances with limited bugs. Yet, Microsft deems this untrue by giving security software to users for free because of insecuity panics of these end-users. [Yes, MS, Firewalls and Automatic Patching count as security measures] They may not be optimally incorperated into all packages, however, tehy should be at least functional to an extent, maybe with a paid upgrade for them to perform better [in regard to anti-virus or firewalls, etc] Microsoft has misconcieved its presence in the software market once again... When will it stop? When will they realize that stupid, simple mistakes like this can comprimise the "Windows experience" for everyone.
_
Free 27" Sony WEGA TV
Yawn something called protected memory and considering IE runs in seperate process called IExplorer.exe, how is IE going to crash windows? I just love ignorant remarks.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
really this is ingenius.
monopoly
+
user-idiocy
+
shitty software
=
self-re-enforcing money machine.
really a brilliantly simple plan if ya think about it from a monopoly business's p.o.v.
no surprise to anyone familiar with thier previously demonstrated propensity for... ahem... evil?
They are NOT suggesting that they will sell patches to the OS or anything of the sort. They are merely saying that they *may* sell a utility that uninstalls scumware. That's all. MS is talking about selling an app to remove all the crud that people install without thinking. Spyware is NOT a result of buggy, insecure code. It's a result of users that click on anything that promises to "enhance" their user experience.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
So first they charge for UNsecurity tools, and now they want to charge for security tools! Why not let the two cancel each other out and not charge anything at all? Oh wait, wrong OS.
Instead of profiting from its craven lack of regard for quality, Microsoft should be sued.
Best regards.
"and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health"
Yep, they made IE so vulnerable on purpose...because they just love the negative publicity...it's very good for their business. Their new evil plan now is to make Windows so vulnerable so that they can sell you a Linux distro.
I'm no Microsoft fan, but I don't understand what the problem is. There are plenty of good, alternatives to buying MS Software for spyware (and the best ones are free). Spyware is a huge problem for most users. I can't tell you how many computers I've cleaned with Adaware, Spybot and CWshredder over the last few years (I just did one today with over 1000 files). I see this as a step in the right direction.
Many of the vunerabilities are MS's fault, but there are plenty of user errors too.
"That looks like a neat search bar"
"Ooh, a free screensaver"
The bottom line is, you have a choice....and you can also choose a new OS if you don't like what they offer. I hear there are some descent OSS operating systems out there.
Tech News, Reviews and Tutorials
Am I psychic, or what??
i d= 11112095
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133058&c
This sounds like a classic protection racket. They create a defective product and then extort the customer. "Pay us or bad things happen to your computer." I wonder if a nice RICO suit will change their mind about this.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
MS Windows 500 seats $100/seat $50,000
MS Office 500 seats $100/seat $50,000
MS anti-virus 500 seats $10/seat $5,000
MS anti-spyware 500 seats $10/seat $5,000
Secret leaked internal memo:
Re: More revenue!
Guys, we're looking at increasing the per seat charge of our anti-virus package. Don't worry about fixing all the OS bugs on the next version, if you know what I mean (aItyd).
Bill
Let me preface this with the statement that the lax security in pre-SP2 IE is shameful. But MS has realized it's faults, and they are quickly securing their products. You can ascribe whatever evil motivation you like to the security push.
m in.aspx r unasnonadmin.html ; en-us;305780
While there have been a few viruses in the past that legitimately exploited vulnerabilities (like buffer overflows and such), all of the spyware in the post SP2 world requires (a) user intervention (pressing yes at a prompt) and (b) running as admin.
Make your grandma a limited user, and even if she presses yes at the prompt, the installation will fail and she'll remain spyware free. While you are at it, you can install Mozilla and let her discover the joys of tabbed browsing.
Here are some resources that might help:
http://www.techproblemsolver.com/limited.html
http://www.dotnetdevs.com/articles/RunningAsNonAd
http://blogs.msdn.com/aaron_margosis/
http://www.pluralsight.com/keith/book/html/howto_
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb
See, there's been a bit of a noise around the web about this whole thing over the last day or so and I really can't see the problem with it.
Microsoft charge for software. Charge. Money. Whether you pay it, or you pay it when you buy your box, or your suppliers pay it and pass the cost on, or your customers pay it and have less money left over to pay it for you, or your government taxes you then uses that to pay it the basic equation is still there. Micosoft charges money for software. Get over it.
They also charge money for shit software, in case you hadn't noticed. Then they charge more money for shit-software-server, then more again for a CAL onto shit-software-server, then some more for shit-CMS and so on and so forth. So, on the rare occasion that Microsoft buys someone that makes good software and badge engineers it, why is everyone suddenly up in arms?
It's not like this is the first time that Microsoft has used a flaw in one product to sell another.
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
"...now they want to CHARGE users to fix it?"
Uh,yes. Businesses are created to make money. This would make money, therfore it's a good idea.
It's a free market. If you don't like it run a different OS or buy someone elses tools. I hear there are free OS alternatives out there too.
To any would be moderators, stating the truth isn't a troll.
Makes you wonder how long the MSFT sheepies are going to keep taking it up the pooper?
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Microsoft intends to provide the software free of charge. The article says they are considering providing it for a fee in the future. While that would be a dumb move, for the forseeable future it will be free.
:)
I wonder, if that boneheaded PM hadn't mentioned their considering a pricing model for the software, would the headline on slashdot have read 'Microsoft will provide free spyware remover, how nice of them!!'. Hmm... maybe not.
People who are still stupid enough to use Microsoft Windows nowadays don't deserve better. Even my grandmother and my little niece are using Linux.
Should a browser or any function ever be tied so tightly into the OS? They made a strategic design decision in hopes of extending their monopoly, and the results are an unintended consequence. The wonderful thing about monopolies, as well as monolithic political systems, is that the decision making is often what brings them down. The shear inability to extend every decision to its logical conclusion is an advantage to adaptive systems.
Careful, you might get what you wished for!
Automated
Technically detailed
I think we may find this is just the tip of the iceberg, and an echo of things to come. Microsoft has already well publicized that they want to charge a monthly fee for NORMAL use of your computer.
I am in much the same situation as yourself, fully patched, running Ad Aware and Spybot regularly with Javascript OFF.
I was researching information on the Roman Empire and was directed by Google to a great web site. About five minutes in I notice a small pop up window that when maximized displayed a blank window. The router, modem and network lights start to blink and the hard drive begins to churn. Ugh, I realize I am the victim of drive by spyware installation on of all things a web site on Ancient Rome. If I can't protect myself given all the above safeguards, how the hell is the average person going to?
It took an hour or two of work with Ad Aware, Spybot and Hijackthis to remove the five or six pieces of spyware shit that installed from an innocuous web site. I am well and truly tired of this bullshit, Firefox here I come...
Charging for security that should be built in ?
... what if ... a hole was left in windows that was left there on purpose ? To buy another product from that company ?
Does this mean selling Windows is like selling a swiss cheese condom. Hey we told you she would get pregnant unless you bought the swiss pieces to patch that up !
You don't charge for a security application you do it like Apple Does it. Improve your product, come out with a new version every other year and say we don't support the older version and give free updates to the newest version.
Selling the security application is the worst thing you could ever do
- MOSKIE
I love my mac
Everything Microsoft says or does can be explained as being motivated by a mixture of exactly three components, (1) Greed, (2) Incompetence, (3) Malice, and nothing else. This is also known as the Microsoft Trinity.
Why should it matter? We should make all kinds of malware flat out illegal. With punishments being handed down to the individuals in the company, rather than the company.
Then we can bitch at Microsoft. They're just riding an advantage given to them by those assholes that make a profit from $0.01 a 'view'.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
"So first they edge their competition out of the browser market, then they tie IE into the OS so tightly that a crash in IE can crash the computer, and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health, and now they want to CHARGE users to fix it?"
Not to pee on the FUD convention, but it is optional as to whether you would like explorer to launch a separate instance for the web browser and the shell. Ever since I first installed Win2k, I changed this option. Not that Microsoft is a positive force, but I see this about as trivial knowing to turn off telnet.d after you install Linux.
It comes down to Woody Allen's punchline: "... and such small portions!"
:))
:)
If Microsoft wants to charge money for security fixes, Hey, great.
The more money, the better!
Software is never finished, only released, as the old saying goes, and it's a more accurate old saying than a lot of the weird ones like "a stitch in time saves nine." Not quite as old, I warrant, but still.
Security fixes cost time to produce and propagate. It's *nice* when Microsoft (or any company) provides free fixes to previously released products, but hardly morally incumbent on them unless there was a moral failing in the initial sale. (A point I won't argue here wrt Windows' and security, note!
If Microsoft wants to charge for security updates, it's one more reason to point out that Free software distributors *can* charge for the distribution of that software, but need not and often do not.
As other people have pointed out in this thread already, Microsoft is in a strange position: if they release things free (esp. bundled with their OS, people complain (justifiably) that they're making it hard on competitors; if they charge for them, people complain that they're gouging for obvious functionality that customers should reasonably expect. Just as justifiable
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
FIREWALL!?!
didn't RTFA???
If you actually read the article, you find that the charges aren't for SECURITY SOFTWARE, but rather for a spyware removal tool written by a company MS acquired. Facts:
1) Microsoft recently acquired a company who publishes spyware removal software.
2) Due to browser habits and insecure default settings, many NOVICE users end up infected with spyware.
3) There is a lucrative business making spyware detectors (see AdAware, etc, etc.)
Imagine that MS releases the spyware removal software as freeware in a service pack. Every company that makes good products to remove spyware (Lavasoft is the prime example) is now out of business. Cue slashdot with the "MS is anticompetitive! Where are the trustbusters?" nonsense.
The article clearly states this "charging for security updates" in the context of spyware removal. Releasing such software for free would destroy a business that really shouldn't be packaged with an OS anyway.
The fact that the poster complains that IE is an inseperable piece of the OS, and then immediately criticizes MS for not releasing an adware removal program free for an OS purchase is hypocrisy of the highest order.
I can't believe that there are those that think that Slashdot actually represents any section of the population but a small, irritated minority. BS articles like this are why I used to actually respect it until I got a job, decided I would read articles and not write kneejerk garbage after reading a headline.
It will be free as long and there are other companies producing like software. When they are gone then MSFT user get to PAY. Not a mystery.
I've seen quite a few of the posts so far under this article which describe getting a "trojan" in a certain amount of time without actively doing anything, or by just surfing the web.
Now at one time I thought I understood the terminology of the trade. A trojan was, like the Trojan Horse, something the user needed to actively install before bad things could happen. Has the vernacular shifted on this term? If so, how is the trojan different than the worm or the virus? Is this word, like "hacker" now more used as a term for any malicious program that sneaks in without being expected?
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
Microsoft gets people bent over a barrel, and then decides to start charging them barrel rent, too. How is this news?
--- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
Hey you bought the shit, now live with the consequences of it.
it is the people who use their products. I know myself some die-hard Windows users, I tried my best to understand their reasons to stick on it and arrived to the following conclusion: people that are not used to think on data in an abstract way search for a connection with reality, something perceptible by the senses. Windows does a good work in providing users with a graphical representation of data. That is in fact the value of Windows. People who learnt to use computers that way will not change to change their minds unless, perhaps, if a better visual representation is provided like Mac OS X. On the contrary, I have a good respect for command line users since they understand the underlying structure of the OS without making a connnection with the common sense. But few people in fact like the command line...
A firewall is only going to stop most spyware from sending data out. The crap is still there, and the second you stop the firewall it's going to blast away. I finally told the wife and kids to have fun with their computer, don't bitch to me when it starts running slow. I'm running Slack10 Linux on my box, so nya to them.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
... and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health, and now they want to CHARGE users to fix it?"
Did you expect something different? Are you really surprised by these developements? This is the way the system works. It's so logical, I would think that this would have been invented on the planet Vulcan. Let 'em charge for it. The underground will take care of that little problem. When they do start charging, unless pirated fixes show up on the net, there will be that many more unpatched machines out there, and hopefully more people wiil move away from Microsoft. Piracy is Microsoft's friend, and here it will help them maintain their monopoly. If piracy was actually to be eliminated, then people will see the true cost of using MS products, they'll starting looking for alternatives pretty damn fast. As long as Apple behaves, they won't have to look too far. Linux just isn't idiot proof enough to count yet. The liveCD is linux's best hope. Unless you break the CD, it's pretty hard to hose the system. I use slax, and everything that I tried worked so far, but I didn't try to print or use my scanner yet.
1. Start a software company and fill up a new market with buggy software
2. Charge for bugfixes
3. Profit!!!
They have done well in promoting the need for their security-software.
Is it possible for a company or community to build a counterpart?
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
the sweat off dead, gay homos with HIV!!!!!
"This has been a banner year for Microsoft. Revenues are up 30% primarily due to our increased focus on bugs and exploits. We are especially proud of MSQA, our new quality avoidance initiative, which has leveraged our core strength into our second most profitable business unit. We also expect continued strong revenue growth with the upcoming release of MDK 2.0 (Malware Development Kit) 2.0 and VB 8.
You dont seriously believe that microsoft gives even an ounce of crap about its users do you?
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My sig is worthless without me, and I am worthless with ou
...and a used car salesman is that the used car salesman KNOWS when he's lying to you.
Running Windows as a non-root user is nearly impossible for Grandma. Nothing will work, nothing installs. Games, most shareware, and even a whole lot of commercialware - they just will not work, or they will not install. And just try to explain the concept of users or permissions to her!
There's a reason why Windows users do what they do - the OS forces you to do so.
Do you think money grows on Gates' back?
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
If you can't baffle them with brilliance, dazzle them with bullshit.
For 20 years, they've been selling idiots the disease, and then selling them the cure.
Note to moderators: the following is probably redundant... :)
MS is probably going to charge for any goodies they produce other than minor or required fixes. The main reason being that even if they'd be happy to give it away, and we'd be happy to get it, many individuals would see this as continuing and strengthening and already strong monopoly, especially if these tools competed direclty with some you or I are already paying for.
I'd be happy to pay for a really good tool, MS or otherwise. In fact, I'm willing to bet most of you who read this not only use the 'lite' versions of various software tools but have purchased them also.
Heck, rather than complain, just continue using what you prefer. But I'm hoping if MS puts out something halfway decent, it will raise the bar for everyone else. Competition is healthy!
Ob MS negative comment: Those silly MS folks, charging me again for an OS I already bought?!
Ob new tool comment: Yet another company trying to one up my favority freeware tool, rocks!!!
Laters folks and be well,
Tojosan
I found this cool site where you cansearch for a discussion forum that wont expose you to viewpoints that offend you.
This is off topic, but why doesn't simple sharing work goddamnit. It works five minutes and then it fucking breaks. Worthless hunk of shit, why doesn't anybody have a distro that my roommates would actually want to run.
Following Microsoft's lead, my ass today announced plans to begin charging for dingleberries produced through the explusion of fecal matter. Said my ass, 'Dingleberries usually are a product of human error, so it only makes sense to charge for them.'
Industry groups complained my ass has a monopoly on dingleberry production.
M
People with no communication skills. Yawn something called protected memory and considering
cyber-warrior
Their customers are obviously fools - why shouldnt they milk them for all they're worth?
There are several groups of people still using MS software - 'average consumers' who are barely even aware of the difference between a CPU and an OS, PHB's who are barely even aware of the difference between a CPU and an OS, (or employees of same who have no choice), or MS apologists who are so certain the ground MS walks on is holy that they wouldnt even consider looking at anything else, let alone actually using it and learning it. (and before anyone jumps in, I *have* experienced MS platforms - I absolutely cannot stand them and am baffled how anyone could get anything useful done using them)
Seriously, if your customers were willing to pay you outrageous prices for absolute shit, had been doing so for quite some time, and were continuing to do so without complaint, why on earth *wouldnt* you come up with new and innovative forms of absolute shit to sell them for even more money?
Nope. "Help" is used the way IRS auditors do it: "we're here to help you..."
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
Its wasn't until I left web development and IT in general that I finally managed to rid myself of Microsoft products. Shame it took such a radical move, but I may be back when the Linux uprising really begins here in the UK, keeping my eye on the job boards ;)
Still, news items like this make me laugh and shake my head in dismay at the same time, working in a normal administrative office now I see how people in "the real world" still think PCs just run Windows, that's all there is, a PC comes with Windows, what else is there?
Tut.
Point 1 is conceded. Point 2 is forced by the crummy design of the OS. Point 3 suffers from a little problem - you have to run IE to get to WindowsUpdate.
Yes, users commit a hefty number of the mistakes, but let's lay some blame where it rightly belongs, at Microsoft's feet.
-paul
Pistol caliber is like religion: everyone has their favourite, and theirs is the only right choice.
This is really old news.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Those bitch MS fuckers. This is reason 7,531 why I drive OS X.
Mod me down. I don't care.
BTW, Happy Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, etc.
Gee, we all have choices in a lot of ways!
SiO2
This is something that has been bothering me lately. How long will it be before Microsoft starts charging for Service Packs and Hot Fixes? So far, they haven't done it but, it occurs to me that it is only a matter of time.
But, the worst part of the idea is that Open Source vendors are opening the door for Microsoft and blazing a trail toward exactly that. Open Source vendors such as Red Hat and Novell/SuSE are selling "cheap" software, built by the Open Source community, and charging a premium for patches. It is a "new business model".
The base software is sold cheap or given away and they make their real money from "support services". However, close inspection of the "support services" show that they offer very little in the way of technical support. They do however offer password protected access to the sites used to download the patches and security fixes for the free/cheap software.
All this isn't going un-noticed by Microsoft, who has toyed with the idea of charging for Service Packs before. In the past however, customers told them in no uncertain terms that they would not pay for bug fixes to software that those customers had already paid a premium for.
Microsoft then developed the "Software Assurance" subscription model, where customers pay a subscription fee that entitles them to future version upgrades. But, Microsoft is still spending money and effort to provide free patches and they don't like doing it as they perceive it as lost revenue.
But, with the "new business model" that Open Source vendors are acclimating their customers to is likely to open up that revenue stream for Microsoft. Just as all the other software vendors were able to leverage the subscription model after Microsoft had acclimatized the customers, it is entirley likely that customers who are accustomed to the the Open Source method of paying for patches will not balk at paying Microsoft for their patches too.
It's a dark and pessimistic vision of the future, I know. But, can you imagine Microsoft actually passing up a new revenue stream from the same old product? That doesn't seem likely to me.
And I am going to start a company that charges for patching microsoft's patches!! Gee...sounds like a cool business model.
For all those saying stay away from pron & warez sites and have a firewall and you won't get spyware, I say hahahahaaaahha hahahahahaha haaahahahaa. That is absolute nonesense and you probably all know it, you'll still get some unless you only visit the same sites you know to be safe. Once you step of the beaten path looking for some different site Whammo! you'll catch something.
Sure, that's Microsoft's business model, isn't it? Trap users, screw them, charge them to get into the next trap. Is this a big surprise?
This sounds like a likely possibility but, there are concerns with this idea too. In fact, Open Source vendors may make it easier for Microsoft to start charging for bug fixes. See my comment below.
How long until they charge for services packs?
--Is this astro turfing or is it spam?
Perfect profit strategy:
First, you deliver shitty software which dominates the marketplace.
Second, you charge for fixing your shitty dominating software, which just sucks even if you "fix" it.
Third, you deliver "fixes" and "fixes" forever,
just because you can and stupid users will pay for that. It's just profit guys!
It's a misleading headline. The article is about anti-spyware software, not about security-hole patches. Spyware can end up installed, by an app from a "reputable" vendor, on a perfectly "secure" machine on any OS (as anyone who's used any RealNetworks software knows**).
Now, commence the nit-picking arguments about how xx% of spyware IS installed through security holes without the user doing anything, and the annoying semantic arguments about whether the fact that spyware is even possible means that there's a security hole.
After you're done with that, realize that this is still not the same thing as charging to fix security holes.
**this may have changed; I haven't used RealAnything in about 5 years.
This will kill IE until MS figures out they have lost and changes it. Just give it time and people will get so sick of paying for that crap that happens to them and they don't know why they will glady switch. willingly go out and use something they no nothing about (mozilla) just to get away from IE just cause someone don't know nothign about computers dosent mean they don't know when they are getting screwed over by a company.
Before I start this rant, let me first preempt it with the following: IE is totally dated, a pain to use (when compared to other browsers), and is not secure (out of the box). However, it is important to realize that it CAN be secure. It just takes a little bit of work to setup. Hell, the typical amount of time it takes to get a linux disto operational to the point of it being "easy" to install applications, locked down, hardware and software configured, etc... one can easily get an IE installation to perform flawlessly. Not, that I would spend my time doing so, however I have done it on occasion. So please don't get all IE is satan, when one can configure the crap out of it (because it is part of the OS). I've had Firefox crash many more times then I've seen IE do the same. Would I then blanketly state that Firefox is a horrible piece of code because it is not tied into the Operating System. Of course not, plus for the longest amount of time... they could just state that they are in Beta, or are Open Source. I feel many times certain software isn't held as responsible for its uses because of this. I often see Open Source projects trying to become the be-all do-all next big thing, with everything about it being customizable. Yet, at the same Word "sucks" because it has to many options. Not saying I condone Microsoft and the many business practices, but shit... c'mon, be fair for goodness sake.
oh by the way.
Do you know how many people get tripped up with FireFox's "inability" to handle Java, Flash, Shockwave, "cool 3d super plugin", etc...
Obviously it can, but on this same token... users can't simply click yes to everything and then it works (like they can with IE).
Bill: Hey Steve!
Steve: Yeah Bill?
Bill: I've got a brilliant idea!
Steve: Again Bill?
Bill: Yeah- let's create software that automatically screws up, then make people pay us to make sure it doesn't crash...
Steve: Uh, didn't they already do that with the Ford Pinto?
Bill: Yeah, and who ever said the American public is smart enough not to get fooled over and over and over again....
(Suddenly, Uma Thurman flies in with a samurai sword...fade to black.)
befuddled (noun) 1. Unable to create a pithy sig
Microsoft may charge extra for security software.
Spyware companies around the globe say not to worry, because the spyware itself will remain free!
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
You are lucky. I connected on *dial-up* with Windows to just DL one form from a gov't website and got infected in under 10 seconds. Before I could actually type the URL into Mozilla, the box was already infected.
I'd say your 10 minutes is pretty good :P
This bit of satire seems appropriate.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Or am I gullible for falling for your troll?
I was just wondering what the probability is that this would totally and completely backfire. I mean, think about it for servers... Windows Servers and *nix servers seem to both have their advantages. Even though linux is free and is generally better secured, Microsoft is trying. But wait... take away the free security (attempt) by Microsoft, and you're left with an admittedly insecure system! This is insane, and could possibly give *nix the leading edge that it needs to cut into desktops, perhaps? (Linux seems to already dominate servers, anyway).
- dshaw
MS is a perfect example of what happens when a company has no competion, even now that Linux is starting to compete, they are still too arrogant to imagine that they could ever lose market share.
Crap this will eventually doom them. Look at Mac OS, a wonderful user-friendly on top a solid secure unix OS. Linux is getting better all the time. THe day linux gets really good support for consumer devices like digital cameras, MP3 players, the newes t color scanners and copiers, then MS is dead in the water in terms of OS.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Microsoft is always screwing up badly and always makes their own users pay for their own mistakes.
They don't want to CHARGE you to fix it, they want to CHARGE you to keep it from getting broken. It's like buying a house with no locks and the builder then wants to charge you to put a security service around your house to keep from being broken into. Oh, and it's your fault, you bought the house!
BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE, DON'T GO TO ANOTHER BUILDER!!!!!!!!!!
You might get the house that you want, affordable, comfortable and safe. C'est la vie -insert gallic shrug here-
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
I'm new here but I think I get how this works now:
Microsucks (see what I did there with the sucks? Micro - Sucks instead of Microsoft. I changed the soft to sucks... Because they suck.) = modded up
Microsoft - the most successful company in the history of the world that is responsible for trillions of dollars worth of productivity gains over the past few decades = modded down
What an enlighten bunch.
This is like Jack Kervorkian selling his services....
http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/17/2 155238
Expect the lackluster quality of Windows to drop like a fucking lead weight! There's absolutely no incentive for them to patch the holes now. Why do it for nothing when you can get paid? Terrific! I get to pay $100-$200 to do beta testing on the 'gold' release, and I get to mail them a check just to fix the problems that they were supposed to, but NEVER BOTHER TO FIX in the first place? Sounds like it's time for another antitruat lawsuit to me.
has come to this.
The personal computer (Apple/Commadore/Tandy/IBM/Atari/Amiga) was supposed to release the creative gene in all of us. At first it did (1978 - 1995), Viri at most were limited boot sector infestations and nothing more.
Leave it to Microsoft to add BSOD and AdWare, and Windows Virus to the english language (Whats it called in other languages)? Instead of removing IE from the core of the O/S they chose to patch the system by purchasing a supposed solution. Now they are going to charge money for a problem that they induced. I also see that Win98/ME is excluded from the list. If I sold buggy software and didn't update 40 percent of my clients, I would be sacked as a vendor.
I'm sorry. Maybe I'm becoming too old, but Virus/Adware are/should not be the norm. When did it become mainstream to run all these utilities just to use your computer?
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
they are wrong if they bundle stuff in for free, and they're wrong if they charge for it. Can't you make up your mind and stick to it? You make us all look like fool's before you do is complain about everything they do
This is setting up for when they will offer to lease your OS to you.. " we will also include security updates with your monthly fee".
Still, its a scam. Too bad the Feds don't have the balls to do anything about these people. Any other company that has pulled 1/2 what Microsoft has, would have been broken up ( or just shut down ) and their board put in jail for fraud.
Yet they get away with it, and continue to grow in strength and audacity of their actions. What gives?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
'Nuff said.
People complain about having patched machines still being infected with viruses/spyware/etc. What the hell kind of sites are people going to that would intentionally try to malice the user anyway? It's not like they're getting stuff from CNN.com or Amazon.com.
Sometimes you just have to know to stay away from visiting some sites. Same goes for browser exploits; you have to know if the site you're at is shady or not before you go. Don't be surprised if it jacks with you.
Microsoft may charge for your soul, because infringes xxx patents.
Not that I'm a die hard Microsoftie, but do you think it's really possible to have an operating system that:
1) Does as much as Windows
2) Has 90% of the OS market
3) Is written by a company that a lot of people don't care for.
4) Is used by a large number of users that aren't computer savvy.
5) Can easily install AOL.
That wouldn't have security issues? Do you really think that Linux, OS X, any flavor of Unix, or any OS that you could think of that is hacker proof?
Consider some of the non OS things that are easy hacked:
1) WIFI with people leaving their networks open
2) Alarm systems on houses that can be defeated by cutting a phone line
3) Front doors on houses that have windows right next to the lock.
To be a relatively safe computer user you have to almost be paranoid. Most users aren't. I have a neighbor that voluntarily runs Comet Cursor even though I've told him that it is spyware. I have other friends that don't care about spyware because 'they don't do anything bad on their computers'. With attitudes like that I could convince a lot of people (or enough of people) to install a program that would reformat their harddrive on Valentine's Day, and they'd type 'Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' 5 times due to them misspelling it 4 times to install if if I put a nifty front end on it.
Microsoft has done some really stupid things with Windows and IE, no doubt. But if people are so gullible that they give their credit card numbers and SSNs to fake bank websites (probably on banks they don't do business with), how do you prevent this?
The alternative is to not allow anything to download and be installed. That would make rough for Adobe, Flash, the Bugmenot extension to Firefox, you get the picture. You can require them to be signed, but what's to stop Comet Cursor from being signed?
What's the answer? I dunno, but it obviously isn't straightforward if thousands of people in Redmond can't think of one.
A couple of years ago they were getting bashed for bundling free software. Now they are being bashed for not bundling it for free?
Cheers,
Adolfo
Microsoft buys up a company making mid-range spyware removal apps, then turns around and starts selling techniques to spyware writers (under the table, no less) so the next generation of spyware and popupware infecting our computers will be absolutely unremovable unless you use the Microsoft-branded MSSpywareRemover.
Then they turn around and charge an arm and a leg for the SpywareRemover software.
Wonder if it'll be able to remove Clippy, too.
"If Common Sense was so common, it wouldn't be such a valued trait."
Story: "-1, Troll"
Oh, wait, it's a story, not a post. I can't argue with it by anonymously modding it "Troll", though it does throw acid in the face of my favorite infallible monopoly.
"The facts are clearly biased against George Bush."
- paraphrase of "The Daily Show".
--
make install -not war
FA says that Microsoft may charge in the future for a product that they just bought and have yet to roll out. Everyone posts typical Microsoft slam responses, without fully comprehending the article.
Microsoft is beginning to remind me of the INS. This kind of unreasonable reasoning is, in fact, quite similar to that which occurs in government bureaucracies. Allow me to explain: When I moved to the U.S. from Europe, I had to go through this government disaster called the INS. As it turns out, at the time that my paperwork was being processed by that disorganization, there were some people working there who shredded documents belonging to about 80,000 U.S. immigrants. They did this because there was a huge backlog in paperwork processing, so some wise guy decided that by shredding the documents instead of filing them, he could make it look like his company was making improvements. This was eventually caught, and I believe that criminal charges were filed.
But that didn't exactly help me. I was one of those 80,000 people. The result of this shredding was that after going through the process, which takes years by the way, nearly all of the paperwork from my file was shredded. As a result, the INS got "confused" in a way very similar to that of a computer running Windows, when the operating system is suddenly deleted in mid-operation. It took quite a few years to finally get a hold of someone deep enough in the disorganization who had the power to do something about it.
Here's the part relevant to this story: When they discovered that my file was shredded, they told me that as a result of the INS's errors, I would have to pay a fine of over 1,000 dollars to get the process back on track.
In other words, they create a disorganization so big that putting some stamps on some pieces of papers takes years, then they shred my papers, then they make me wait years (and if I hadn't fought tooth and nail, they would never have acknowledged that they screwed up), and then, I had to pay a fine to fix it.
So, yes, to people who put a system like that into effect, it makes a whole lot of sense to make a browser so crufty and full of holes that it won't hold water even when submerged, and then to charge people for bloated layers of crufty software that is supposed to fix it, except for hundreds of corner cases that malware authors can use to work around it. And, did I mention that they'll charge you for the priviledge? I suggest trying free software instead. It's so much less painful.
So, Microsoft has announced FREE software - rant about that. Later, IF they start charging for it, you can rant again about them charging for it.
Two-rants-for-one special!
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
For all we know, that could actually be what M$ is planning to do. Hell, if I was Uncle Bill, then I'd likely do the same thing. That's just good business when you're a blood sucking monopoly. Blood? Milk? What's the difference?
Its the latest marketing extension/penetration ploy... I call it more money for no real effort.
Tell me more.
"So first they edge their competition out of the browser market, then they tie IE into the OS so tightly that a crash in IE can crash the computer, and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health, and now they want to CHARGE users to fix it?"
Brilliant!
Brilliant!
Ching
Considering that Giant anti-spyware used a paid subscription-based model, it kindof makes sense that MS would charge for it. I wouldn't expect Halo to come free with windows just because MS owns it and it can run on windows. I would, however, be pissed if service pack 2 wasn't free.
/. front page a few weeks ago.
For all those who have forgotten, Giant showed a lot of promise in the big anti-spyware head-to-head on the
And yes, as people mention this is good competetive behavior. You can buy the MS branded one, or you can buy something else (or use free stuff). If they have to compete for dollars, the spyware database will be maintained with more gusto.
I don't remember how much they used to charge for it though, since I don't recall having ever paid for it. Wasn't Microsoft AntiVirus included with DOS 5.0?
Man, I surf porn sites using Mac OS X, and just as I need no protection in real life, I need no protection in cyper space, save for blocking pop-ups. Safari usually gives the prettiest, fastest and most accurate rendering, but for porn surfing I usually turn to Firefox or Mozilla (I need them bookmarklets, particularly the "increment" one).
Someone should write an operating system that's as easy to use as Window, but without all the instabilities and insecurities. And, oh yeah, it should be free, have expert developers constantly perfecting it, and have forums monitored by experienced users who are willing to help you with your problems. And then we could all quit bitching about how "OMG M$ i5 teh 5ux0r5!!" and all be happy.
But that's impossible.
The average Windows user will feel that MS is sooo wonderful for securing their computers against the wild and wooly internet. As the Windows machines again slow down and bcome even more clunky, the solution will be to buy a newer computer, and sales people will show the buyers how economical the new PC's are compared to those sooo expensive Mac's. Doesn't sound much different than the past 20 years, and people still put up with it.
It's not just anecdotal evidence. SANS has hard numbers of average the "survival time" before you're attacked. Currently it's 18 minutes.
Put an unpatched windows machine unprotected on the Internet and you are toast.
Good work, but this post could use a little html to make it more convenient :)
"When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
A rough quote from Dilbert's Wally,
when they were going to be paid for each bug they found.
Microsoft sounds like it is catching Wally Syndrome.
So let me guess they sell shitty OS and now i have to pay to fix it thats like buying a car new car ......with a hole in the rad a leaky transmission and a poorly running engine....the after spending 25K or more on it pay 5k to get it to run the way it should be ....I say charge them for lost production.....reboots BSOD'S Lost files ect.
Hilarious story you've probably already seen on the news. So, er, AC. But damn funny if you haven't.
I need no protection in cyper space
Is this some small part of the internet with only Photoshop tutorials cordoned off for Mac users?
So now we can expect a shopping cart icon to appear on MS Security Bulletin page...!!!
This should help them in their campaign with regard to total cost of ownership of their systems versus Linux!
Its part of the new media blitz. Its all the rage these days. Get ignorant suckers to believe they are getting something great, when its only to charge them more for something that doesn't work well or at all in the first place.
...then they tie IE into the OS so tightly that a crash in IE can crash the computer, and then they make IE so vulnerable that just using it is hazardous to the typical computer's health...
You've never had netscape crash your unix computer? Wow... I'm jealous...
Microsoft creating and charging for anti-spyware tools is like a heroin dealer running a rehab clinic.
Okay, so Microsoft purchases a software company that produces spyware removal tools, then announces that within 30 or so days they will release said software for free. When posed the question if they will continue to develop new versions and keep releasing it for free they state that they haven't made up their mind, and Microsoft is the evil one?
Come on you zealot fucktards.
I really don't think that they will charge for this
. I believe what they have done is purchase a stop gap measure until Longhorn comes out. They are currently getting dinged on this TCO thing. One of the big points that kills them here is not the initial cost of OS, but the third party stuff that it also requires. Currently you can't run Windows and IE on the internet without Anti-virus, spyware detection/removal tool and a firewall. They have addressed, somewhat, the firewall issue with WinXP SP2. But the user is still out about another $60 in 3rd party software for AV and Spyware removal tools.
But when MS purchased RAV, I also hoped they would bundle AV with the operating system. I've pretty much given up on that dream.
You're a bit confused at the outcries here.
MS includes a necessary tool for free: "Unfair bundling! They're just trying to muscle everyone else out of the market" Should be: MS includes a necessary tool for free without giving users the choice of using another application which does the same thing (Windows Media Player vs Media Player Classic/Winamp/...) MS charges a fee for a necessary tool: "Charging for this? What a ripoff!" Should be: MS charges a fee for a necessary tool which should have been included in the original OS or the OS wouldn't need if it were actually secure. We already paid for the OS.It's a bit overgeneralized, but that's about it.
Hi, my name is Billy Longhorn and this is my er... business associate, name's Balmey. You are using our software and so we are considering you our customer. I and Balmey here are very conserned about wellbeing of our customers, that's why we are offering you an additional er... protection for a very reasonable fee. You would not want anything bad happened to your computer, right?
Isn't this a confict of interest?
I mean, you make a crappy product and than you sell fixes for it, wouldn't that be an incentive to keep making the product as crappy as possible?
Not that Microsoft need incentive for that...
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
For anyone but Microsoft.
If everyone who bitches about windows would simply quit fucking using it, it would go away.
Y'all already got the damn button, so push it already!
I guess Micro$oft hasn't heard the expression... "Don't bite the hands that feeds you."
trust, broken, repeatedly
Aggregate as needed.
Entirely correct.
CityLink is indeed privatised and they are indeed making a fortune off it as their tollway provides a very quick (usually - when lanes are not closed) way around the CBD of the city.
However, the Mitcham-Frankston Tollway has not yet been built - ConnectEast is the name of the consortium recently awarded the contract to build and operate the freeway. Transurban - the owners of CityLink - are a separate company who were outbid to build the new toll road.
That's the "sound tunnel" designed to reduce the noise of the road (which is elevated at that point) reaching the Ministry of Housing apartments 100m or so away from the tollway.
Full marks for resourcefulness. If you lived in Australia, you would have incurred a penalty for your reference to a tollway not yet built. (see the South East Integrated Transport Authority web site for more information on this road, which has it's own controvosy surrounding it) however the two would indeed look very similar according to Google...
"As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade." -- Bill Gates, Chairman, Microsoft Corp, 1998.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
It's because Cakewalk uses the HKEY\LOCAL_MACHINE Hive of the Registry, instead of HKEY\CURRENT_USER. Application Developer error, and a really common one too.
Well, yet another reason to get Linux, eh? By he way, this was bound to happen some time!
-David Grubba
bye.
Not yet anyway, unless you count customer's cheapness and laziness and a legit reason for thier monopoly. There isn't a God damned thing that 80% or 90% percent of the things people out there do that they can't do on a Mac. They're just too cheap and lazy to get one.
And if Microsoft does have a monopoly, I say so the fuck what? You people gave it to them when you let them side on the whole trial thing (you people being 99% of America). You don't like it? Tough. You sold yourselve for the $499 dollar PC, and Microsoft was buying. Now that the transaction's over, it's too late for a refund.
I guess I'm bitter because it's getting harder and harder to sell people a decent computer (at least in America) because all people care about is getting it cheap, and they never once stop to think of the consequences of all those dirt cheap computers and all that free tech support. As a technician I'm getting screwed hard by these people. They don't want to buy a good computer from me and then pay me for my time when it breaks and I service it (or buy a service contract so they don't have to pay whenever something breaks). They want their cheap Dell with it's 24 hour free support that just tells you to call Microsoft. Then they fume and moan and bitch, buy a Gateway and get the same crap from a different company. Well, fuck those people. I say they'll get what they deserve in the long run, it's just too bad I'm going down with them....
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Buy a Mac
It's like the government scaring people into giving up their freedoms for security. Since most people are uneducated, they will fall for it. They don't know any better. And that plays into Microsoft's hands because A)people will think that Microsoft isn't at fault and B)Experts will appear descredited in the eyes of the consumer. And Eeye doesn't know what it's talking about. They've never heard of "Marked safe for scripting" ActiveX controls. You know, the kind that are *supposed* to be safe but have been modified to infect and/or damage computers. That's hardly a user error.
I wonder if this has anything to do with Microsoft buying out that Spyware Removal Company?
Slashdot post here
Giant Company Software In. site here
Pintos exploded when rammed by another car from behind. The courts forced the manufacturer to recall the defective models fix the faulty design. Or should the courts just have told Pinto owners not to let people tailgate on them?
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Microsoft makes the most popular car in the world. Unfortunately its undercarriage is so poorly designed that a simple worm crossing the road can easily cling to the frame and slow the car to a crawl. Also if the driver has a cold or the flu, the car catches the virus too and often crashes. Currently Microsoft provides a free seat-belt (... well, actually the price is bundled into the car's purchase price ... but we'll call it "free" ...) and a scraper that can get rid of most worms.
Of course, you have to stop the car to scrape off the worms, and the seat-belt doesn't mean that crshes don't sometimes kill you.
But you can't blame Microsoft for the loss of time or risk of death. It's the worm's fault for exploiting a vulnerability of the car! And above all, it's the driver's fault for driving the car in the first place!
Is it any wonder that drivers would be angry if Microsoft started charging explicitly for worm scrapers and and seat-belts?
--- Attorneys Assisting Citizen-Soldiers & Families -
Remember guys, this is Amerika. Just because you have the most votes, doesn't mean you get to win.--Fox Mulder
Nice computer software you have here. It would be a shame if, like something were to, like break, ya know? I mean, what if all of a sudden nothing worked right? It might be a problem, ya know. Well for a small sum, we can guarantee you nothing will happen to your software. Just pay us on a regular basis and we guranatee, nothing will happen to your nice computer. Noooooo! We aren't threatening you, no! No! Not at all, its just, well you do want your nice computer to work, don't you? ....
Isn't paying these bozos a penny sort of like paying them for incompetence and bad software?
How can you trust MS for a spyware removal tool when they bundle spyware with a fresh install.
I gave up with the idea of an useful sig...
The more obnoxious Microsoft (a renowned cash-strapped company if there is one), the better the alternatives look.
" I wonder where MSFT thinks the money for this extra software should come from?"
They don't care. Their latest licensing schemes are just ways to raise costs without appearing to raise costs.
The problem with MS is that the market is saturated, so the only way for them to show revenue growth is to (a) cut down on piracy or (b) raise the price.
In scenario A, we get product activation. Does it stop piracy? No, but maybe it improves it 10%, which helps the bottom line by, I dunno...1%? and scenario B can help to a certain extent because they effectively have a database. Butits hard to justify charging $100 for XP this year and $110 next, particularly since most are OEM deals that cannot be changed. So another way to raise prices is to charge for every little "innovation". The way you do that is to make it look as if you're adding real value to a product.
In this case, they have an abysmal security policy and they augment that by charging you money to fix their own problem. And it works because some portion of the people....30%? are convinced that MS is a good, decent company and that they must do this "because they must show a profit".
People keep saying "this will be hacked" or "people won't fall for this">
They don't need it to be 100%, only enough so that they show an increase in revenue.
Which somehow means that virus-infested files are critical to Windows' operation?
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Since about the days of NT4.0 many people in the IT business were saying something along the line: "MS got their act together, they have released a professional O/S with security built-in, a reasonable kernel, good performance, that runs on multiple platforms including commodity hardware. This is the end of UNIX, and not a moment too soon, we are tired of the expensive hardware and of the Unix wars".
However MS has continually disappointed. Security ended up being very very bad, and becoming in fact worse with every new release (Microsoft still hasn't been able to break the old conflict between ease-of-use and security, unlike Apple).
Since then we've had Linux and the BSDs maturing (including Darwin). MS security is in fact worse with XP than it ever was with NT4 and this is affecting mere users in a huge way. Spyware removal has moved from a little cottage industry to big multinational business. Running a simple PC with Windows is fast becoming harder and more labour intensive than simply installing Linux on it.
My family members and friends are constantly asking me for advice. I'm always happy to help them with their Windows troubles (after all this keeps my skills up to date to a degree). I never mention the fact that they should try Linux or buy and Apple but when they ask me why I don't run Windows I simply say: "no spyware, no virus" and they start thinking about it. A few more years of Linux and OpenOffice maturing, and we'll see a shift of the order of the Firefox one.
Unless Microsoft get their act together, fast. But they are not, witness the current decision.
Microsoft is unable to make long term decisions that will affect their users positively. This is because they are driven by short-term profits. Even thought they have the resources 10 times over to make the right decisions, they are being trounced, little by little, by a band of volunteers.
This is both heartening and disheartening.
BTW I find all the replies to remarks along the line "but you can't even plug a windows machine in default mode to the Internet more than 10 minutes before becoming infected" absolutely hilarious.
1- first find a secure machine
2- download all the patches by hand
3- burn to CD
4- go to insecure machine.
5- unplug from network
6- install OS
7- install patches
8- boot
9- make sure firewall is on
10- plug network cable in. Browse to you heart's content!
11- Oh, and make sure you don't run IE, and keep your machine up-to-date! and don't run as the admin! What? games don't run except as admin? don't play games!
Easy! speaks for itself, doesn't it?
The human error aspect of the problem is staggering. A Sympatico (broadband ISP here in Canada) tech told me to turn off the Windows firewall when connecting a computer. Said it would make some websites not work. If that's really the party line amongst phone center reps, then we have tech support helping to spread worms. Scary.
Who, in their right mind, would actually trust Microsoft with their security. Nevertheless pay them a premium for it.
The company has been disgraced at every turn with their shoddy products and the realization that security is as much culture as it is code. And, they are fighting an uphill battle with their proprietary code model.
If I have to pay for security, which is the case today, the last people on the planet I will rely on is Microsoft. (Written a day after another fatal flaw was found in IE)
Stick your pot heads into a camels ass and shut up !
Nobody wants your Anti-M$-FUD, you dumbasses !
I'm sick of people saying bundling the program would have been wrong too. You can't compare it to IE or Windows Media Player. A browser and a multimedia player are extra to an OS. But not getting fucked up every 5 seconds is definitely in the mandate of an OS. Regardless of whether they are doing it in the form of making the OS itself secure or providing security tools, it is, in fact, their duty to make sure that we don't get incredibly fucked up.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+buy+comes+with+strin gs+attached/2100-7350_3-5495994.html
He he he... i can not imagine what is the next "Business great idea" coming from Microsoft... mmmh... let me think: If you get the "fatal blue screen" using Windows, you have to pay some money to Microsoft because you were who turned on the computer... so, you are the cause of the problem... it is logic, isn't?
apple estimates 25-35 million mac os x users
I know the marketshare percentage of 2% gets thrown around a lot..but cash registers aren't really the target of many attacks. apple really has closer to 15% of the DESKTOP market...the home users. that's their base.
so over the last 3 or so years I've heard "when the market share grows enough"
being that mac users are some of the most HATED in the industry...you'd think at least one person would have written something. just one good virus. maybe even a reasonable trojan.
to date there have been a few web exploits, the famous mp3 spoofing trojan, and a few other buffer explots. they've all been patched pretty damn fast.
the point being..the argument that macs aren't exploited because of lack of marketshare is crap. there's plenty of opportunity and reason to go after Mac users..people don't because a retarded monkey fart could hack windows, whereas it would take some REALLY serious brains to attack OS X. and even if you made a trojan, there's no activex to automatically execute it. it takes someone willingly installing, then authenticating a process to allow it to install.
you can't even install a friggin' printer driver without giving the OS an admin password. anytime a file launches an application for the first time, the OS lets you know about it.
it ain't gonna happen. and if it does..the problem isn't going to linger like in windows.
why in the hell should apple write antivirus software and include it in the OS? there aren't any fucking mac viruses!
lets assume there ARE....apple has to watch the toes they step on. if they include EVERYTHING in the OS..their developer base disappears. they NEED that developer base.
not to mention the fact that it is NOT a simple undertaking. virus checking is extremely resource intensive. it takes a lot of people doing a lot of work non-stop. you have to update the virus definitions. and again..I bring up the silly little minor detail of the fact that there ARE NO FUCKING MAC VIRUSES.
so why again does apple need to include snake oil with their OS?
After reading most of the replies from supporters of Windows they all amount to the same response:
You got infected because:
You didn't install the iron bars on your windows before you moved in...
Your definition of 'dark' is not correct.
You must've looked someone in the eyes and didn't realize it.
You're lying because I've lived in the ghetto for years without iron bars, I roam at night, and I look everyone in the eye and I haven't been shot. (This one must be one of the bad guys that make living in the ghetto so dangerous!)
Ad nauseum... The Stockholm Syndrome over and over and over...
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
... or saving in a non M$ format. There won't be much you can do about that, either.
-- Dialogbox
Since you are trying to save into a non MS owned file format, enter your credit card details in the fields below to proceed...
-- end Dialogbox
I don't care if I gave them a new business idea, I avoid being locked into proprietary file formats when creating things.
My 2 cents
Of course, not "good" in any sort of moral or humanitarian sense. Nor even "good" in the sense of traditional free market capitalism (since a monopoly produces only controlled markets).
This plan is good in that it makes tremendous amounts of money! Microsoft is simply doing what ANY monopoly in their position would do. In fact, I would go so far as to say that this behavior displays absolutely no creativity or free will or anything of the sort...but simple, mechanical, obvious response to market conditions.
"Duh" comes to mind.
You know, there's a reason they call it "My Computer" and it has nothing to do with you.
(Score: -1, Stupid)
It seems you missed the news about Providence, RI's mayor Buddy Cianci being charged and convicted under the RICO Act for corruption.
At the time, it was surprising that government officials could fall under the act. I'm sure RICO could be applied to Microsoft as well if the evidence was right.
Dear Bill,
Thank you! You're the best. Keep 'em coming. We can't say thank you enough. Wow - that 'charging for security' thing was a great one.
sincerely,
Linus and Steve
If this were Usenet, I'd killfile the lot of you.
good move M$. gotta make those billions back that you're losing to *nix webservers out there somehow.
I'd have to point out that holding Microsoft at fault for the criminal or malicious actions of others is exactly the same as saying that a woman in skimpy clothing is asking to be raped. Rape shouldn't be the penalty for poor taste, and Microsoft isn't wholly to blame for virus, hacking, and spyware attacks. The malice and greed of the malware crafters is the real evil entity in the equation.
/. either. One of my users is a wonderful retired man who spends ages working on a video biography to give to his grandchildren so they'll know who he was and they are. It's amazing and wonderful the things that you can do now that you never ever could before.
The computer industry would be no where near as advanced as it is were it not for Microsoft or it's equivalant. Microsoft deserves serious bashing sometimes but they're not Lucifer Incarnate over there in Redmond. I've worked with every Microsoft OS since DOS 1.1 and I still have an original copy of it.
Having said that, I cannot for the life of me understand what the hell those people are thinking sometimes.
What was the freakin' point with the XP GUI? Everything is still there, more or less, so why move it all over the place and make it look different? As soon as I get my hands on an XP machine I revert it to "Classic" and my users breath a sigh of relief. It wasn't a marketing tool because you don't see the GUI until you own the machine and fire it up. I think they did it to force MCSE's to recertify on the new OS, huh?
Same thing goes for this spyware problem. I don't understand what the hell they're thinking. You can download great and effective tools for free to deal with it. AdAware SE does as good as the best and there are commercial programs that augment it very well, like the one that MS just bought, GIANT.
The thing is, like it or not they DO lead the market and if they want to keep that position, this security issue is going to bite them in the ass. If they want Aunt Tillie to be able to buy a nice computer and plug it in and use it for more than a day, they'd better do something fast about spyware/malware. They already charge enough and I'm not quibbling about the price of MS code, but... It DOES behoove them to keep their product useful and productive without increasing the cost or demanding a subscription to fix the drek they let in.
There are really only two solutions to their business dilemma; 1. Fix the vulnerabilities constantly and immediately. This would mean a whole new branch of the business. Or-2. Buy a decent anti-spyware company, pay them to do what they already know how to do, and incorporate the software in the browser/OS. Update constantly via Windows Update and don't charge anything extra to keep their software usable.
The point being, 80% of home users systems are infected, infested, compromised and possibly propagating. There are people losing big money because they don't know how to protect their computer systems and bad guys are getting access to their finances. If Microsoft can't field a reasonably secure and useful product, Microsoft will have to live off it's past. In this industry I don't think that's going to work for very long.
If this industry is going to thrive, the Aunt Tillies of the world are going to have to be able to buy a computer, plug it in, and not know a damn thing about anti-hacking, antivirus, anti-spyware, etc. And it will WORK for them when they want to dl a coupon from a fabric store or check the local grocery specials.
I live in the Los Angeles Basin and personally I'd be thrilled to death if all the Aunt Tillies never had to drive anywhere at all...
I know people, very intelligent people, Doctors, Lawyers, some of them retired. They're gems in their field but their field isn't computers. They're NOT stupid or lazy but they're NOT the kind of people that would have a subscription to
These people shouldn't have their labors risked or their productivity diminsished because they're axle deep in pop
In my experience you must also disable ActiveX. Before I discovered Firefox, I used to use IE with both Javascript and Active X disabled, and as far as I am aware I never got infected.
These days it is just a no brainer though, I regularly prompt people to install firefox.
someone may come around and break your windows.
You should buy insurance from us (the window breakers corp.).
And then your windows may not get broken. As often.
Where have I heard this before? And where I heard it, the guarantee that no one would break your windows usually was a guarantee you could bank on.
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