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So where did Der Spiegel get these documents?

Presumably from Laura Poitras (she taped Snowden in Hong Kong and received materials from him) since she's worked with Der Spiegel in the past.

For example, she wrote this story from Snowden's files for Der Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-european-union-offices-a-908590.html

That's not the correct quote. At least, that's not quite what he said at the keynote I went to, and that's what the article's about. So I'll call it a misquote.

The nutbag theory is that Muslims want convert countries like the US to Sharia law.

What "those guys" want, as Gen. Alexander explained, is to create a caliphate in the Middle East that is based on strict Sharia law. Our actions in the Middle East stymie that.

Note that this is actually the stated goal of Al-Qaeda.

Erm, I think the Germans have been forced to repress the flag-waving, army-exporting, "We're better than everyone!" aspect of their culture,

Yes, but only the flag-waving, militaristic part of it.

Germans still think they are best at:

- having learned a lesson from their own history (which they are happy to point out to anyone who hasn't)
- being tolerant of others (Scandinavian countries, Dutch, and Belgians might be better)
- knowing about other cultures (Being better than the US doesn't make you best)
- visiting and learning about other cultures (eating Schnitzel at a Spanish beach pubs really doesn't count)
- being close to Mother Nature (American diplomats think otherwise)
- being quite modest despite being so great

(1) most importantly, fossil fuels being cheap is a temporary thing. At some point Germany (and the rest of the world) will no longer have access to cheap fossil fuels. Replacing them is a multi-decade project, and private industry is very bad at looking at far ahead so the government has to put different incentives in place.

The German Army may have something to do with it: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/peak-oil-and-the-german-government-military-study-warns-of-a-potentially-drastic-oil-crisis-a-715138.html

Renewables are doing so well in Germany that their neighbours have cut the German grid out, got tired of seeing their transformers burn: http://www.praguepost.com/news/15258-region-german-green-energy-push-needs-a-rethink.html

and German companies are moving to inhouse power generation because they can't take the losses caused by power fluctuations: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/instability-in-power-grid-comes-at-high-cost-for-german-industry-a-850419.html

the privacy question is far more mature than in the USA. It's not a government vs peoples fight,

Yeah, Switzerland is the mature one, what with all your banning of minarets. The rest of our republics certainly have their faults, but rarely can they be compared unfavourably to a racist homeowners association.

But back to the topic. An important thing to note is that in Switzerland there is a very large and much more obvious commercial interest in privacy protection: the banking secret. Those who find it most important to keep their affairs secret, and can afford it, are already banking in Panama, and Luxembrah, and yes, Switzerland. Thanks to those guys, your privacy matters more, as it is associated with a powerful and historic interest which the government will find much harder to fight. As for the rest of the world, we had to forget about about our banking secrecy some years ago already. Much as today, seven years ago the press exposed a secret government program that was scrutinising our private matters under the guise of tracking terrorists. And much as it happened then, this NYT editorial seems appropriate.

It was a myth, a good PR. The truth is probably the USA were never more, or less, democratic and free than most of western europe state.

Today, Western Europe is about as democratic as the US because within living memory various countries had actual fascist governments overthrown by war or social change, and communist governments removed or communist movements thwarted either by war or social change. Collectively all of Europe is far freer today than it was 70 years ago. The US and UK have been free and democratic the whole time, now Western (and most of Eastern) Europe has joined them. Even formerly Soviet Russia is now freer even if there are some troubling trends. (And there is a country that is an exception. And there is an ugly trend that should be a relic of the past - will that curse never leave? )

So no, it isn't just PR. This is all subject to change if people forget or act unwisely.

That's not quite right.

WikiLeaks Secret Diplomatic Cables Released In Full

WikiLeaks said it decided to publish the entire collection after about half of the documents, also without redactions, were discovered to be available on a public server earlier in the week.

WikiLeaks has disavowed responsibility for that release, which consisted of about 100,000 secret cables, but said that as criticism of the group mounted, they were left with no alternative "rational action" but to release the entire collection....

For months WikiLeaks has found itself increasingly at odds with some of the media companies they had previously partnered with. Their ties with The New York Times strained after an unflattering profile of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange appeared in the paper.

But this week's discovery of the 100,000 unredacted cables -- in which the names of government sources and other sensitive details were not obscured -- seemed to offer the final word on any effort to continue filtering the files through the mainstream media.

Leak at WikiLeaks: A Dispatch Disaster in Six Acts

Some 250,000 diplomatic dispatches from the US State Department have accidentally been made completely public. The files include the names of informants who now must fear for their lives. It is the result of a series of blunders by WikiLeaks and its supporters.

All information gathered by the NSA in regards to German emails was given to the NSA in a mutual exchange of intelligence information. What the Germans are doing now is trying to wash their hands of any complicity in the matter, even when that very information helped capture two Russian spies. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/trial-of-russian-spies-in-germany-strains-diplomatic-relations-a-908975.html

Germany is one of the hotspots for Boundless Informant. It appears that the US spies on Germany as much as it does on China.

It makes somewhat less sense given that the US spies on Germany with considerable assistance from the German BND...

I can understand why Germans would Not want their emails passing through American control; but it looks like they'll have to clean house if they want to be able to do that just by going domestic.

Did you even read the article to which you refer? It specifically talks about how the Germany's BND is making sure not to spy on German citizens and that only 2 data sets pertaining to German citizens were ever passed on.

I know this is hard to believe coming from the US, but in Germany, breaking the law generally does have consequences. The G-10 law specifically prohibits spying on citizens, and people (not all of them, but the vast majority) tend - unlike in the US - be interested in actually following the law.

Germany is one of the hotspots for Boundless Informant. It appears that the US spies on Germany as much as it does on China.

It makes somewhat less sense given that the US spies on Germany with considerable assistance from the German BND...

I can understand why Germans would Not want their emails passing through American control; but it looks like they'll have to clean house if they want to be able to do that just by going domestic.

Notice that they bitch about PRISM... but don't bother mentioning the UK's program, or any of the other monitoring programs run by various governments around the world. The US is hardly the only country doing it, but it's popular to bash on America and it draws attention away from their own spy programs. The purpose of "in-housing" the email is so it's easier for their own agencies to access.

Germany is one of the hotspots for Boundless Informant. It appears that the US spies on Germany as much as it does on China.

It makes somewhat less sense given that the US spies on Germany with considerable assistance from the German BND...

I can understand why Germans would Not want their emails passing through American control; but it looks like they'll have to clean house if they want to be able to do that just by going domestic.

All we need now is the tar to be converted to solar panels and we have a self-sustaining means af transport. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/solar-road-panels-offer-asphalt-alternative-a-901792.html

Wikipedia has an entry on it: X-Keyscore

Good background story: Solving the mystery of PRISM

Spiegel Online covered it: 'Key Partners': Secret Links Between Germany and the NSA

Oddly enough it appears that news about intelligence programs used by America and its allies is reported in Persian. Go figure.

[Full disclosure: I work on a product like this]

This kind of system is also in operation in Germany. There was a major lawsuit between RTL (huge German broadcaster) and TC Unterhaltungselektronic AG, that very much reflects this lawsuit. Here is a link to the German court ruling as reported by Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/fernseh-fee-bgh-erlaubt-verkauf-von-werbeblockern-a-305779.html

I realise this is a bit of a shameless plug, but it is relevant to the interests of this thread:
http://fernsehfee.de/

But spot the difference between allowing police to track specific phones for investigations and the NSA recording all communications for everyone, forever.

Oh, there's indeed a big difference.

The US situation used to be that the only way to wiretap US citizens in the US was with a specific court order; the NSA and CIA were not permitted to do it. That was based on Constitutional protections. The uproar is over the NSA violating this.

European nations never had such protections in the first place. Many national security agencies in Europe have, for a long time, engaged in widespread monitoring and wiretapping, and they are allowed to under their laws. In addition, the legal protections from wiretapping and monitoring by police are also generally weaker in Europe than the US. Germany has been pretty bad in both of these areas (assuming you're from Germany). In addition, Germany after WWII additionally became subject to extensive monitoring by US intelligence, and rightfully so, and Germany has never even attempted to make an argument that this should stop.

Furthermore, countries in which stuff like this happens have no credibility in terms of privacy and limits on state power:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/abhoeren-von-linken-abgeordneten-friedrich-verteidigt-spitzelei-als-fruehwarnsystem-a-811570.html

You can't think of another reason?

Why Theo Van Gogh Was Murdered
Dutch pledge Islamist crackdown
SPIEGEL Interview with Hirsi Ali: "We Must Declare War on Islamist Propaganda"
Violence in Holland: Jihad Behind the Dikes
Dutch anxiety over ‘Sharia triangle’ police no-go area in The Hague
Netherlands, Germany alarmed over Islamist extremists
Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent

You can't think of another reason?

Why Theo Van Gogh Was Murdered
Dutch pledge Islamist crackdown
SPIEGEL Interview with Hirsi Ali: "We Must Declare War on Islamist Propaganda"
Violence in Holland: Jihad Behind the Dikes
Dutch anxiety over ‘Sharia triangle’ police no-go area in The Hague
Netherlands, Germany alarmed over Islamist extremists
Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent

Going back to the wiretapping, it also has been common knowledge that its a unhealthy ammount in The Netherlands, but for some reason it has never upset people enough,...

I'm sure there must be a reason or two.

Why Theo Van Gogh Was Murdered
Dutch pledge Islamist crackdown
SPIEGEL Interview with Hirsi Ali: "We Must Declare War on Islamist Propaganda"
Violence in Holland: Jihad Behind the Dikes
Dutch anxiety over ‘Sharia triangle’ police no-go area in The Hague
Netherlands, Germany alarmed over Islamist extremists

Going back to the wiretapping, it also has been common knowledge that its a unhealthy ammount in The Netherlands, but for some reason it has never upset people enough,...

I'm sure there must be a reason or two.

Why Theo Van Gogh Was Murdered
Dutch pledge Islamist crackdown
SPIEGEL Interview with Hirsi Ali: "We Must Declare War on Islamist Propaganda"
Violence in Holland: Jihad Behind the Dikes
Dutch anxiety over ‘Sharia triangle’ police no-go area in The Hague
Netherlands, Germany alarmed over Islamist extremists

The original article in German: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html

Google Translate: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?u=http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html

As with most globally significant events, there's been a lot of foreign language reporting (on the Snowden mess), but very little of it filters back into the USA media-sphere

It's like back with the nuclear disaster in Japan. Continuing vs. stopping to use nuclear power was a big issue in Germany back then, and her party was originally strongly for continued use. With the pressure, she suddenly decided that she really wants to get out of nuclear power, better sooner than later.

That's good! Reacting to voter pressure is what a politician should do.

Guess what? You don't hear jack about that anymore. It's just not an issue anymore.

Just because it's not in the mainstream media doesn't mean it's not an issue and just because you aren't hearing about it doesn't nothing is being done, in fact they are being dismantled.

Anti-terrorism is the excuse for spying. Business is the real purpose. When the countries we spy on the most can be ranked in terms of size of economy, there is no fucking way the government can keep claiming that the purpose for these spying programs is anything other than to keep the powerful people powerful.

For example, revelations were made that we target Germany for spying. It only makes sense if you look at the size of the economies. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/nsa-spies-on-500-million-german-data-connections-a-908648.html

Yes, NSA spying will hurt California's business.. and it should. Instead of giving in to the secret government's secret demands, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and everyone else should be fighting these anti-democratic efforts tooth and nail.

We already have empirical evidence that a lack of copyrights is not detrimental to artists, engineers or scientists.

Just one example out of many.

Indeed, only 1,000 new works appeared annually in England at that time -- 10 times fewer than in Germany -- and this was not without consequences. Höffner believes it was the chronically weak book market that caused England, the colonial power, to fritter away its head start within the span of a century, while the underdeveloped agrarian state of Germany caught up rapidly, becoming an equally developed industrial nation by 1900.

Even more startling is the factor Höffner believes caused this development -- in his view, it was none other than copyright law, which was established early in Great Britain, in 1710, that crippled the world of knowledge in the United Kingdom.

Germany, on the other hand, didn't bother with the concept of copyright for a long time. Prussia, then by far Germany's biggest state, introduced a copyright law in 1837, but Germany's continued division into small states meant that it was hardly possible to enforce the law throughout the empire.

Are they the ones that go through the three day "full take", every packet stored data store?

I've given this a lot of thought, and compiled a solid rant on the subject.

My thesis about privacy in 2013 - 2020:

Lets start with some facts:
1. The Spy agencies in NZ, UK, USA, Australia and Canada spy on everyone, even their own citizens. 2. The UK copies literally everything that traverses the Internet and keeps it for 3 days for analysis (EVERYTHING!) 3. The USA shares this information (including commercial secrets) with its private enterprises to help them win international business. 4. So many people work for these agencies that from time to time this information is made public. 5. Nobody really cares. 6. The chances of any of these organisations giving up such a valuable source of power are about the same as global nuclear disarmament 7. It’s only a matter of time until the local police have access to all this information. 8 . In 2001, as sysadmin of BSSC I could read the email of every teacher and every student at that school, without leaving a trace of evidence, nor with any fear of punishment for wrongdoing.

So, I assert: You have no privacy online. You never really did. It was only by unspoken rule of sysadmins that we let you have the illusion of privacy. Ed Snowden betrayed sysadmins.

Strangely, Google poise to release the most important advancement toward our goal of total access to information - a video camera strapped to every second person’s head (Google Glass), and people are up in arms (9) and so are the governments best poised to take advantage! (10).
I think we’ve got it all wrong. Let’s stop bitching about this rampant surveillance and embrace it.

Let’s get our spy agencies to make everything they’ve got available to everyone! Let’s mandate that every Google glass camera must be on all the time, every phone must have its microphone on all the time, every GPS recording its location and all this content uploading to the cloud!

Information WANTS to be free! EVERYONE should have access to EVERYTHING!

Then it will hardly be accessed, because if Facebook status updates have proven anything it’s that it’s no fun spying on all your friends if all they do all day is play Farmville.

Finally, these civil libertarians realise that nobody really cares about them, or their “right to privacy”, and we will be able to make the most out of google glass (11).

Sources:
1. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html
2. http://mashable.com/2013/06/21/gchq-spy-agency-taps-global-internet/
3. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-14/u-s-agencies-said-to-swap-data-with-thousands-of-firms.html
4. Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden
5. http://www.news.com.au/
6. http://io9.com/5969204/could-nuclear-disarmament-actually-increase-our-chance-of-an-apocalypse
7. “if the information is there, it’s already collected, why not use it to prosecute the crime? Why are you protecting the guilty? If you’re innocent you will want us to use this information to exonerate you.”
8. I read your email. Get over it.
9. http://www.policymic.com/articles/29585/3-new-ways-google-glass-invades-your-privacy
10. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57591975-93/google-glass-privacy-concerns-persist-in-congress/
11.

Onyxruby, you are so full of it, you could make a killing as a fertilizer whole seller.

1) Going through the "proper channels"
There were previous NSA whistle blowers who did follow proper channels. Their lives were made hell and their leaks did not get out. One of them, Thomas Drake, had this to say about Snowden:

I differed as a whistleblower to Snowden only in this respect: in accordance with the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, I took my concerns up within the chain of command, to the very highest levels at the NSA, and then to Congress and the Department of Defense. I understand why Snowden has taken his course of action, because he's been following this for years: he's seen what's happened to other whistleblowers like me.

[...] But as I found out later, none of the material evidence I disclosed went into the official record. It became a state secret even to give information of this kind to the 9/11 investigation.

The material evidence that Snowden was able to provide, only by going outside the proper channels, was essential for refuting the sea of lies that have been emanating from the highest levels of the NSA.

Those flagrant lies to Congress and the American public are one of the reasons Snowden chose the path he did. Whistle blower programs only work if the violations being reported are small and don't extend to the highest levels. Are you seriously suggesting that the director of the NSA would have allowed the release of material evidence that would have outed himself as a liar to Congress and the American people? That is certainly not what happened with the previous NSA whistle blowers. And without the material evidence it is just the word of an unknown underling versus the word of the director of the NSA.

2) The route of maximum damage
Snowden did not release any information directly to the public nor did he give any information to enemies or allies of the US. What he did do was release limited information to a legitimate news organization and let them decide what should be released to the public. This is widely recognized as the responsible course of action. For your claim against Snowden to be true then the Washington Post, The Guardian, Germany's Der Spiegel, and Brazil's O Globo must all be in on the conspiracy to cause maximum political damage. Just like your suggestion about going through proper channels, this claim of yours is not credible.

If you were in Snowden's position and had evidence that the NSA was lying to Congress and the American people about vast Unconstitutional spying networks, what would you do? Your idea of "going through the proper channels" is an obvious non-starter. The most responsible thing to do is exactly what Snowden did, release some of the information to a legitimate news organization and let them vet it to make sure it is both safe to release to the public and newsworthy.

3) Ad hominem attacks on Snowden's character
I believe a citation request is warranted for your attacks on Snowden's character. Everyone who I know of who has had personal contact with Snowden has given nothing but the highest praise when discussing his character. They are all convinced he is only doing this for the noblest of reasons; not out of ego and in an attempt to damage the US.

Your post consists of nothing but obvious outright lies and baseless character assassination. Sadly, it typifies the mainstream coverage of the NSA spying scandal. If you want to see for yourself how the vetting process worked and see appraisals of Snowden's character from people who were in

Article in German

Now that they themselves, and not just EU citizens are also the target, they EU-representatives don't like the whole spying thing anymore

States or "state-likes" like the EU spy on each other, ok.
I find it much more worrying that normal EU citizens are being spied on by UK services. My government (German) tells me they didn't know about it, and of course I am inclined to believe they are not telling me the truth (new default reaction to free world government officials saying something). The reaction our minister of justice got when she dared to demand some clarification from the Brits, a polite "go f**k yourself", is still interesting. Oh, and literally while I write this comment, this just in: (article in german) the NSA also massivcely spies on the german public.

The source for the spammy blog that the "summary" references:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-european-union-offices-a-908590.html

If that is what you think, then you don't understand their goals. Second paragraph.

More: The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

[...] WITHOUT SPEAKING PUBLICLY OR RELEASING HIS NAME[...]

Like that would have kept him safe. They would have eventually found the source out, and I don't want to know what would have happened to the guy then. Maybe kidnapped and flown him to Egypt over Germany for Interrogation. We can't tell what would have happened, but they would have found him. He is playing the only card he has: convince the people that what he did was correct, both morally and legally. That, you cannot achieve in a case like this under a hidden veil.

Now he has a door wide open for political asylum in Hong Kong, which has very strong asylum law - law preceding all extradition law. Smart move I tell you.

And don't think for a second that he's alone behind these actions. I'm quite sure he's having help and guidance from the Guardian and co.

If by 'long settled', you mean since 2001, then fine.

Sorry, but the Supreme Court ruled on that question long before 2001.

And if you mean legal, you mean that Congress waived it's constitutional war-making authority, then sure.

No, it exercised that power and authorized the use of military force to purse the conflict with al Qaida.

As the lone protestor in Congress stated:

Did the declarations of war against Germany, Japan, and Italy limit combat operations to only the interior of those countries? Or did American forces fight them wherever in the world they were found?

As for Bin Laden. Uh, no. Al Qaida just wants the US out of the middle east. Like most Americans do.

Your information appears to be incomplete.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

That is convert to Islam.

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

Implement Sharia.

Bin Laden's demands would also necessitate merging church and state in a manner like the Caliphate.

No, that isn't true at all. You've got an answer, but it doesn't apply to the situation. Ultimately Al Qaida wants to conquer and rule the world for Allah and convert the people of the world to Islam. In the process they will restore the Islamic Caliphate that was dissolved in 1923 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Many of the demands that people mistake as their goals are really nothing more than near-term or intermediate objectives.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

There are examinations ongoing if the Telekom is using its market leader position for unfair practices, pecisely because of this.

Nice try. The head of the Federal Network Agency has recently been replaced by a party shill. Same guy who has now to explain a thing or two about how he secured a job for the ex-lover of one of Germany's top politicians of the Christian right.

No, it is decreasing, at least from its potential at the time. The US managed to head off a number of major terrorist attacks. Al Qaida decided to cancel others on their own.

There are people around the world that have their own agenda unrelated to American actions. This includes Al Qaida. If Europeans hadn't defeated the invading Turk armies at the gates of Vienna, this wouldn't have been a problem. You would probably already be Muslim. As it is, they plan to keep fighting until they reestablish the Caliphate dissolved in 1923, conquer the world, and convert the world to Islam. If you aren't a Muslim now, you or your descendants will be in their crosshairs unless they are defeated.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

Then don't read the mindless tabloid, read it here instead: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-defense-ministry-continued-drone-program-despite-problems-a-903504.html

That starts with the wrong drone picture too. It says this

German Defense Ministry officials are also well aware of the dangers associated with the lack of a collision avoidance system. Nine years ago, a German surveillance drone known as a Luna -- essentially a large model airplane weighing some 40 kilograms (90 pounds) -- nearly slammed into an Airbus belonging to the Afghan airline Ariana as the passenger jet was approaching the Kabul airport. A video of the incident filmed by the drone shows that the distance between the two aircraft could not have been much more than a couple of meters. Had they made contact, the Airbus almost certainly would have crashed.

First of all without knowing the lens used, you can't estimate the distance. A couple of meters from slamming into the aircraft is made up bullshit. I don't think of Der Spiegel as a tabloid, but the coverage here seems like one.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/puzzling-together-the-past-new-computer-program-to-reassemble-shredded-stasi-files-a-482136.html

I'm afraid you've misaddressed that complaint. You should be sending it to this lot. If they have their way, it won't just be a "chilling effect" you feel on your neck. On the other hand, they like to give people a "hot time" when they can. If it makes you feel any better, I think the restrictions on that sort of thing aren't as rigid as they were in WW 2.

No, it doesn't because it is irrelevant. The US lost more than 100x the number of people that died at Pearl Harbor in WW2, but it still went to war against Japan, Germany, and Italy. The problem they presented wasn't going to go away by doing nothing. I expect that far more people at the time died of accidents of various sorts than were killed in the attack. Not relevant. The problem of Al Qaida is the same - it won't go away by itself. but will only get worse if ignored. It has to be addressed to turn it around. The point about suicide versus battlefield casualties doesn't negate that and is irrelevant. Although I will take a moment to recognize the considerable improvements in battlefield medicine and personal protection through various means which have resulted in a much lower death rate than previous conflicts - fabulous work.

On a tangential note, you might want to find out what Al Qaida's goals are. They are ultimately independent of US actions.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants
The short version: Restore the Islamic Caliphate dissolved in 1923, take over the work, and convert the world to Islam. It is a long term goal. You may not think that is realistic, but that is what they fight and kill for.

Including this lot: Bomb plot: Life sentence for Irfan Naseer, ringleader of Birmingham men planning wave of UK suicide attacks
 

Although sometimes the torture is indeed deliberate policy.

It turns out that this "torture" is a routine medical procedure performed daily for large numbers of people, from infants to the elderly: Feeding tube. Are they being "tortured" too?

So, question for you - if the US authorities were to stop forced feeding, and 60 detainees actually did starve themselves to death, would you complain? I expect so. Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, isn't it? What do you think would happen if the threat of starving yourself to death becomes a "get out of jail free card?"

Keep in mind that the Islamists fighting the West do not fight alone, they have allies.
The Leftist-Islamist Alliance in Pictures
It's Official: Leftist-Islamist Alliance against the West

On a related note, can you post any facts on whether the CIA had or has a policy of followup drone strikes . . .

Maybe this will help:

Pakistan Says Drone Strikes Have Been Effective

Major-General Ghayur Mehmood spoke to a group of Pakistani reporters on a rare trip to Miran Shah, the administrative center of North Waziristan.

The Pakistani general says that information the military has gathered from its sources suggest most of those killed in drone attacks are hardcore militants, and the number of innocent people being killed is relatively low.

The official paper distributed among reporters says that there have been 164 drone strikes in the militant-dominated region of North Waziristan since 2007, killing 964 "terrorists". There were 171 al-Qaida fighters among those killed, mostly belonging to central Asian and Arab countries.

------

I'm more than beginning to have the disturbing sense that the US government/military has stared too long into the abyss.

The media is having its intended effect.

If you have any brainstorms about how to do this better, I'm sure the Pentagon would love to hear about it. Send them a letter. Maybe something like, "Dear General, I know how you can get all the Al Qaida to stop fighting. All you have to do is ....."
If the next part is, "give up their fringe religious views and dreams of conquering the world for Islam," that isn't going to be very helpful.

Before you think about such a thing, you might want to read up on Al Qaida's goals.
The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

You misunderstand the problem. The ultimate goal of Al Qaida is to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate government that was dissolved in 1923 (after the fall of the Ottoman empire in World War 1) and extend Muslim rule and religion over the entire earth. Their goal is not connected with the United States and the West. However, the United States and the West will not bow to this plan, so they are an enemy to be attacked. Since you misunderstand the problem, you won't have a useful solution.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

If you think this is about karma, then you fundamentally misunderstand the problem.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

By the way, ever hear of David Hicks, or Bali? Shayden Thorne? Maybe one or two other things?

Threat from enemy within makes anti-terrorism laws indispensable

Decisions have consequences, even if decision makers sometimes go into denial. In the weekend edition of the Herald, Debra Jopson provided case studies of the 21 men who have been convicted of terrorism-related charges following Operation Pendennis in Sydney and Melbourne and Operation Neath in Melbourne. A large number are of Lebanese Muslim descent.

In his address to the Sydney Institute on January 24, the director-general of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, David Irvine, pointed out that ''of the 38 people prosecuted for terrorism-related offences in Australia, 37 were Australian citizens and 34 were either born here or lived here since childhood''. Clearly home-grown terrorism is a threat in Australia.

The breakdown of the jihadist-related terrorism prosecutions is revealing. In a paper titled Explaining Australia-Lebanon Jihadist Connections, Monash University academic Andrew Zammit broke down the statistics as at September last year. He pointed out that 20 out of 33 men prosecuted ''have been of Lebanese descent''. Moreover, ''while Lebanese-Australian Muslims make up 60 per cent of those charged over alleged jihadist activity, they constitute only 20 per cent of all Australian Muslims''

Australia a target for 'ideological terrorist attacks'

There is more to find if one cares to dig.

But "fixing" a non-problem is usually deleterious. You make things worse, and you waste capital doing so. It may well be that a warmer planet will be a better one. All the "just so" stories of tipping points and rising oceans are just that: unproven suppositions. Like the South Pacific islands supposedly being swamped by rising seas that actually turn out to be sinking.

For example, more people die from cold than heat. And longer growing seasons in a warmer earth more than offset the reduced arability due to small temperature excursions. Adaptation is required, to be sure, but I bet that's way, way cheaper than the cost of trying to alter climate change, which may well not be anthropomorphic.

article

There is an economic analysis out there (sorry, don't have the URL at my fingertips) that compares book authorship/publishing/reading in strict-copyright 19th century England with no-copyright 19th century Germany.

I've only started reading it, but perhaps this is the source you're referring to: No Copyright Law: The Real Reason for Germany's Industrial Expansion?

Did Germany experience rapid industrial expansion in the 19th century due to an absence of copyright law? A German historian argues that the massive proliferation of books, and thus knowledge, laid the foundation for the country's industrial might...

...an incomparable mass of reading material was being produced in Germany...

We knew in the 1970s that solar panels would repay the energy cost of their production well within their lifetimes; back then it was seven years, for polycrystalline panels. Today it's three years, for thin-film. What's next? Wind keeps getting better as well.

Suppose a windmill lasts, on average, 20 years before needing replacement. That means you need to replace 1/20th of them every year just to keep the production capacity where it is. This means a huge, permanent money sink. And the same goes for solar panels too, of course.

The problem is that renewables are quite dispersed, so you need lots and lots and lots of infrastructure to gather them, which needs lots and lots and lots of maintenance. Also, to actually perform this maintenance you need roads (which also need to be maintained) and you also need to transmit the power somehow.

Sunny Germany seems to be able to produce its power via Solar.

But at a cost.

You can say that again. I thought the US was very anti-pornography, and if you believe anything Bill Maher says, Americans are more sensitive to that kind of thing than anybody. Yet other than child pornography, there hasn't been any significant effort to ban it from either private homes or public places. This, as well as the recent European parliament nearly banning all forms of pornography, hints to me that it may not be quite what it seems.

I probably shouldn't be surprised though. The US has this reputation as being one of the most racist countries in the world, yet all of the known race baiting groups in the US are relatively silent compared to those in Europe where neo-nazism is far more more common, apparently. They even have people who are openly neo-nazi in their parliament ffs.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/neo-nazis-and-right-wing-extremists-gaining-support-in-greece-a-894596.html

Muslims like Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph?

The phrase you are looking for is "pressure cooker bomb." It is a technique taught by and identified with Al Qaida and affiliates.

Fixed your bigoted American exceptionalism for you.

You don't know what you're talking about. And that is really quite astonishing since the information has been widely available for some time.

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants

If you think this is ultimately about anything America has done, you're uninformed. If you think it will stop if America is destroyed, you're willfully blind. Ultimately they will come for Europe and the rest of the world as they believe they are both entitled and destined to rule every nation.

And the kicker is that they will have help:

The Leftist-Islamist Alliance in Pictures
The Left's Unlikely Alliance with Islam
Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Leftist's Ironic Unholy Alliance with Islamists
A dangerous alliance: Faux liberals and Islamists
Islamist-Left Alliance A Growing Force