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Thanks to the person who posted the link:

http://www.teslamotors.com/mod...

Some of these cars are great deals.

You won't find the dual-motor versions, so they're all rear-wheel drive.

I don't think you'll find the autopilot feature on any of them.

And the real frustrating part of the experience is that the filters are very limited. You can't filter on particular features, such as panoramic roof, subzero package, or rear-facing seats.

I expect they'll improve the filtering when they have more than 20 cars to look at.

I went to http://www.teslamotors.com/ and I didn't see any reference to used cars. The stories say they "quietly" started selling used cars, but "quiet" appears to be an understatement when you can't find it even if you're looking.

Maybe a better way would be to say the last 2% or 3% of driving cases not already covered. Even the Leaf covers probably 70% of driving cases (random percent guess). But it's easy to think of very common use cases that it would not reasonably cover that are not in that last few percent. The current Tesla models do.

Driving cross country in a Tesla is doable *now* depending on your requirements (i.e. minimum stops and can't be stopped more than 10 minutes). I guess those use cases are things like you have to drive to a wedding 10 hours away and overslept. You can make it, but ....

Actually, from a "technical" point of view, I agree with you. Most of the driving cases are already covered by EVs. Even those like the Leaf.

My point is that people by and large don't make car purchasing decisions based on the technical data, they buy emotionally.

You need EVs that are WAY beyond what most people "need" before they'll "want" them.

---

That being said, I just noticed that Tesla a few weeks ago upgraded their base car from a 60kwh to a 70kwh and made some other changes, it is now four wheel drive for example.

Looking at the base model, which is no longer quite so bare... the purchase price and lease cost is no longer as crazy as it once was.

I don't want a "car", so it really isn't of interest to me... but if it were in the shape of a SUV, I might be more interested. Yes, I saw the Model X, it is probably too small for me.

As I sit here at my computer looking at my Yukon XL parked out front, it seems to me that if you remove the big 6.2L V8 engine, the transmission, the differental, and all the other parts needed to make a gas car work, you could put the motors from the P85 version of the Tesla on there and get about the same, if not better performance. The battery wouldn't be good for as much range, maybe down to 150-170 miles, but that would be enough most of the time.

How much would it cost? How much of the price of my truck is the engine and gas parts and how much is the sheet metal, interior, etc? I honestly don't know.

I paid $73,000 for my truck last year, it is fully loaded with everything you could want. Would I pay "more" to get an EV version? Meh, I don't want to, but if we had supercharger stations and places to plug in everywhere, I might consider it.

If you look at Dallas:

http://www.teslamotors.com/fin...

The only real place to charge would be at home. However 150 miles of range would be plenty for driving around town. I-20 and I-30 don't have superchargers, so frankly it doesn't work here yet, but I imagine they'll get them at some point.

Frankly, I don't understand why gas stations don't install them, I would pay for power, I don't expect it for free. And a 15-20 min recharge time gives me a reason to go inside and eat something.

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So to sum it up, if the cost was similar, if the range was 150+ miles, and if you could put the Tesla EV tech into my Yukon, I might become interested...

That is a lot of "ifs", to be sure. But it is quite possible that in 20 years, it will be a no-brainer.

Panasonic
http://www.teslamotors.com/en_...

The specs allege "92% round-trip efficiency". I'm not sure how much weasel wording goes into that figure; but if it isn't a lie-for-all-but-legal-purposes, that could easily fall within the peak/off-peak price changes in many markets.

Nobody recycles batteries for the lithium. A small amount get recycled for cobalt That will change as the price of lithium rises, of course as that happens we are back to economics..

And yet, the total batteries are being recycled as we speak here in America.
Here is more.

Which is why we don't have enough to supply our need.

Sadly, again, you have no real knowledge of science, or what is going on. You took something from several years ago, which is predicated on PROVED RESERVOIRS that want to be acknowledged. Yet, it is wrong.
Now, go look up Simbol Mining Corp. Simbol is going to feed Tesla, which is working on a factory that will MORE THAN DOUBLE CURRENT LITHIUM ION PRODUCTION. Now, that is just 1 company that will be providing all this.
In addition, for the future Here is more.
You just have to read a bit, rather than as little as possible. In addition, stay up on your science.

Finally, as to being cheap/economical, it is regularly about scale, not about process. Bolivia and Chile are pushed by Europe to be dirty, but, Tesla will be looking for more than what Bolivia, Chile, China, and Australia put out together, THIS YEAR. And considering that it will come from America (and Canada), that will increase the scale. Finally, as Tesla gears up, Simbol's will also expand outwards to other geothermal units.

I really don't think that matters. You're missing the paradigm shift that is necessary to drive an EV. You have to stop worrying about how long it will take to charge the battery in your car because you charge it every damn day. Its just a part of driving an EV. You come home, you plug it in. You go to a parking garage where there is an EV charger, you plug it in. I drive an EV that gets *far* less range than 400 miles and I could care less how fast it charges up (well, that's not necessarily true, I *do* care about level 1 vs level 2 charge speed) and I really just drive around town like I usually do and don't worry about it. Am I driving that car on long trips? Hell no. But frankly, it doesn't matter.

So, whether we see your scenario in our lifetime or not is irrelevant. The infrastructure build out for level 2 and 3 charging is relevant and is already underway

Full of shit? In every case, I typed the model into Google, and took the lowest number. The rest of the weight are for options, so they are not relevant.

The ones I mentioned were because the Volt and CRV had already been discussed. I have an F-150, and it the best selling vehicle in the US for the past 32 years. (source: wikipedia) I chose the Tesla because some people cream their pants green whenever they hear that word.

Tough shit that Ford is making an aluminum F-150. Good for them. The Tesla is also aluminum, so it is an apples-vs-apples comparison.

That said, here are the numbers right from the manufacturers:

Ford F-150 4x2 = 4,050 LBS source: http://www.ford.com/trucks/f15...
(Note that even their tiny engine has 325 HP and 375 ft-lbs of torque, which is necessary for a truck)
-vs-
Tesla S = 4,647 LBS source: http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...
(If the Tesla has higher horsepower, it is only useful for making the owner's dick get hard.)

Honda CRV = 3358 lbs source: http://automobiles.honda.com/c...
-vs-
Chevy Volt Base Curb Weight = 3786 lbs source: http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-...

Despite what you want to believe, the numbers are what they are. And I just wasted a half-hour looking them up for you.

The tesla is a bad example. The 85w has a range over 300 miles.

My gasoline car has a range of 250 to 265 miles (280 pure highway).

Also, it presumes the old battery has zero value. I'm not sure that's true.

There's also some math problem since a tesla owner site says

http://my.teslamotors.com/it_I...

"1. we know the cost to replace an 85 kwh battery is ~$12,000"
This is apparently with a trade in of the old battery...

Others in the same discussion mention 20 year life spans for well maintained batteries.
And others say that as long as the range exceeds 75 miles, it's usable for their daily driving needs ( so the tesla battery pack could lose 65% of it's capacity and still be fine. Some say 50 miles (which was typical of my usage for my ICE when I was working).

Just FYI...

Ah, the mightywind that is afraid to be up front.
First, Multiple studies in the US show that we have PLENTY of power to charge 100% of our vehicles. Of course, that depends on 25% or less being done in the daytime. But hey, do not let facts get in your way.
Secondly, the charging infrastructure is already in place in America. All of our homes have electricity. As to long distance driving, Tesla will have the nation wired for high speed charging by end of 2017.
Here is a better map of what is going on at this time.
Third, in 2 years, Tesla will have a car that costs less than 35K, without the subsidies, does over 200 MPC, and is still high performance along with high quality. Why would anybody want to buy POSs when you have such a car? The answer is, that only idiots like you will.
Fourth, once demand rises for that kind of car, you can bet that used cars will plummet in value.

Still attached to the kock brothers pants? Gas prices are a NONE issue. Electric cars car are coming down in price so much that ICE cars will be too expensive to own at $2.00/gal.

Even at high torque at low speed they are far more efficient than an ICE. As for more expensive controllers, the controllers for an induction motor are no more complicated than that of a synchronous motor. A synchronous motor needs to know the position of the motor, an induction motor needs to know the speed. In terms of complexity, they're not all that different. Also, usually you're not running at peak power. In terms of average power usage, say on a freeway, an induction motor may be more efficient than a brushless motor. See http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-brushless-motors for a good discussion.

The first US transcontinental railroad was built primarily by low-paid Irish and Chinese immigrants and veterans from the Civil War. Since it didn't go through any slave states, at no point did it involve any slaves (at least in any significant number). Though how "free" the immigrants were is probably debatable.

As for your inability to see how a tube could be cheaper than a rail track, you can always just read the proposal. The hyperloop was specifically suggested as an alternative to an existing rail project, in part because it would be cheaper, so the comparison is there. Whether it's correct or not is another question.

I think he just got it from the 270 mile EPA 5-cycle range officially published for the 85D. I don't see any reason to link his post to Top Gear. They never featured the Model S anyway, only the Roadster.

a 12,000 USD battery every 8 years may throw off your napkin calculation. You are probably spending more on the electric even with oil changes.

http://my.teslamotors.com/it_I... don't forget a 12 thousand dollar battery pack every 8 years. That may throw a damper in your napkin calculations.

Which they've opened up for free.

If you think burning fossil fuels in an ICE at 25% efficiency is green, then keep on sending your money to the terrorists.... EVs emit less CO2 than ICE cars even if the electricity comes from dirty coal because there is much higher efficiency at all stages.

if by "much higher efficiency" you mean 40% vs 25%

then yes.

factor in transmission line losses (6%) and charging losses (10-20%)

and it's not so much more efficient.

Right. You do NOT fiddle with it while driving. However, the same can be said of regular car buttons. The nice thing about the tesla screen is that you very quickly learn the setting so that you do NOT fiddle anymore than you will with a regular car.
Fact is, the tesla controls are LESS bothersome to me than the old buttons.

Show me a worthwhile fuel cell car?

Try driving any of those cars outside of the few hydrogen filling stations. Oh wait, you can't. By the end of next year only a few cities will be linked up by hydrogen filling stations. I can drive my Tesla from San Diego to Vancouver today, or across the country. By the end of next year most of the nation will be covered by rapid chargers where only a few major cities will be covered by hydrogen. I can also charge any place there's an outlet or at most RV parks if need be. Most of my charging happens at home. I spend 5 seconds at night to plug in and 5 seconds in the morning to unplug and have a full battery with over 200 miles of range, all in the comfort of my garage. I never have to set foot in a service station and only need to charge for long-distance travel. http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...

Hyundai has a new FC car out that I can lease today. The Toyota Mirai is coming soon. show me a worthwhile EV car that's not a $90k space ship.

Those cars are very heavily subsidized. They cost far more to build than what they're charging. For $57K the Mirai is a mediocre car. There's no way anyone would pay the true cost of the Mirai. They're also only selling 700 cars next year. Tesla sells far more cars than that every week with plans in 3 years to make 500K cars per year. There's also a reason why they subsidize the cost of the hydrogen because right now it's the equivalent of $5/gallon of gasoline.

They will never sell given that the cost of hydrogen will always be significantly higher than gasoline while being less green to boot

costs are on track to drop below gasoline on a per-mile basis. There are many H2 pathways that are very green and these are being scaled up rapidly. Also remember that FC cars are much more efficient than gasoline cars, so any metric has to be on a per-mile basis.

Bullshit. The cost of hydrogen right now is very heavily subsidized. It can't be made cost competitive with gasoline. It is far too energy intensive to make it. You can't transport it to service stations like you can gasoline since the volume of hydrogen required is much larger and the tanks must be much smaller and heavier due to the extremely high pressures involved. Those narrow tanks have a wall thickness of about an inch so they're also quite heavy. It pretty much must be made on-site and that is expensive to do and energy intensive. Making hydrogen from methane is a very mature technology and there's not much room left to cut costs. It is far more expensive than gasoline.

Making hydrogen from water is and always will be cost prohibitive due to the enormous amount of electricity required no matter the catalyst and fuel cell efficiency in a vehicle is maybe at best 60% efficient. Hell, it takes 20% of the energy contained in the hydrogen just to compress it to 5000PSI.

depends where you are. in the PNW electricity prices are 3.5 cents / kwh. if you're smart you can play all sorts of load-balancing and green credit games to get prices down really low. As a benchmarks, it is 60 kwh to make a kg of H2, including compression.

60KWh will get an electric car 200 miles or more. A HFC car will only go a fraction of that. Most places don't have electricity anywhere near that cheap. In my area the cost is closer to $.20-$.30/kwh. The best wholesale rate you might get is $0.10-$0.12/KWh, nowhere close to $0.035/KWh. Right now making hydrogen from water is the equivalent of $6-$11/gallon of gasoline assuming economies of scale which currently does not exist.

You can't transport hydrogen over regular pipelines and you can't economically transport it by truck like gasoline.

There are plenty of H2 pipelines. also plenty of tube trailer trucks. The people who move H2 all around the country think it's viable cuz they do it.

Tube trailer trucks can't transport all that much hydr

niche?, you can go coast to coast in a tesla using superchargers this year

Yes niche. There is precisely 1 supercharger station in my state and it is on the other side of the state from where I live. Having a route by which you can go coast to coast means very little by itself unless that happens to be the specific route you need to follow. Believe it or not, not everyone lives in NYC or LA or even particularly close to the interstates that directly connect them. Good luck getting across North Dakota in your Tesla.

most of the US will be covered by 2015, get some research fingers going on google

That's not even remotely true. They have 132 stations in the US. Yes they are building out quite a few of them but that isn't remotely the same thing as having them "cover the US". When they get the number of stations into the tens of thousands then I'll concede the point. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see them building this sort of infrastructure but I'm also not going to pretend it is a bigger deal than it actually is.

No one said it's easy for Tesla, but they have clearly demonstrated that they can make it easy for you - in fact easier than filling a tank of gas! I don't have any insight into their strategic plans, but I can imagine they would want to first install the easier (for them) alternative before rolling out nation-wide something as complicated as battery swap. I can imagine such solution has huge fixed costs that will not be covered until they become considerably more popular. They have not pushed away from the concept, however - it's still there on their web site: http://www.teslamotors.com/bat...

Sure, if I want a 30 minute timeout every couple hours along the few routes they service. Hope you didn't want to drive through Yellowstone.

It'll get to that point eventually. Tesla's currently installing superchargers across the country. You can get a half charge in 170 mile charge in 30 minutes (and it's free)

http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...

That's not too bad. Having to stop for 30 minutes every couple hours is a bit less than desirable, but that's a significant improvement. If you plan your bathroom breaks and dinner around charging time, then several of those stops won't be so bad.

If Tesla really wants to be a good automaker, they need a good resale value.

http://www.teslamotors.com/for...

1. Any car can be self-driving. SUCCESSFULLY self-driving is something entirely different. Does the Telsa have the full suite of sensors (including LIDAR) that the Google self-driving vehicles have?

2. The new "autopilot" feature will NOT be available on the existing base - it's just for cars being built now and in the future:

"Every single Model S now rolling out of the factory includes a forward radar, 12 long range ultrasonic sensors positioned to sense 16 feet around the car in every direction at all speeds, a forward looking camera, and a high precision, digitally controlled electric assist braking system."

http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

it's an EV that can go from from 0 to 60 mph (96 km/h) in 4.2 seconds

According to their site, it depends on the trim. For the base 60kWh RWD version, it's an EV that can go from 0 to 60 mph in about 5.9 seconds. The current RWD P85 is the one that does it in 4.2 seconds, and the upcoming AWD P85D brings that down to 3.2 seconds.

How about a link to the Tesla article.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

Math isn't hard. I know because I have a degree in it :)

The 200kW was a typo - it should have been 120. And although my degree is in math, not EE, even I know that the charge rate of Lion cells is non-linear. Take a look at the graph in the "How it Works" section here: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger. You clearly need more than 85kW to charge an 85kWh battery in 1 hour.

Clearly you don't like the guy but to call him a huckster is ridiculous. As is accusing him of "sucking at the government teat." Tesla got a loan and paid it back with interest (unlike GM that got partially "bought" by the US government, bailed out, and then sold back to the private sector at a substantial loss.) As far as tax credits, all manufacturers of EVs get them.

You're upset that they build an expensive car to fund the development of less expensive ones? Your mad that 10%ers (not 1%), are funding the development of the Model 3? That bastard, using wealthy people's money to pay for the design and factories that the 50% will be able to buy. Musk spelled this out in 2006 in The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan. And you're going to compare the P85D to a Volt? That's like being mad that a BMW M5 costs more than a Chevrolet Spark. I'm sorry you're not getting supercharger stations with lifetime free charging at the rate you want for a car you're not going to buy.

As far as Commercial Crew goes, it was not cancelled, it was put on hold because SNC was upset about Boeing winning a bid and they filed a challenge. SpaceX's win was not contested. SpaceX's bid was the least expensive and their program is farther along then anyone else's. NASA temporarily halted the contract to review the challenge, but the hold has already been lifted and work has resumed. In 2017 SpaceX will be delivering astronauts to the ISS. And if you don't know what's "special" about SpaceX launch vehicles, you're not paying attention. They are already the least expensive LVs per kg plus they are self funding reusability research. In December they will attempt to land a first stage on a barge after launching CRS-5 to the ISS. Their mere existence as a less expensive LV provider has already forced competitors to cut prices. They are already succeeding in reducing the price of spaceflight, which is the whole purpose of SpaceX. And if they succeed at reusability, it will be a game changer.

The NYT drove the car in circles in a parking lot to run down the battery, then lied about the range. Musk pulled the GPS data and PROVED they were lying.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

Musk is more the Antithesis of Jobs

http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

Maybe something in a Roadster?

On the one hand, Musk is saying all the right things:

Except in the cases of a collision, opening of the battery pack by non-Tesla personnel or intentional abuse (lighting the pack on fire with a blowtorch is not covered!), all damage is covered by warranty, including improper maintenance or unintentionally leaving the pack at a low state of charge for years on end. The battery will be replaced at no cost by a factory reconditioned unit with an energy capacity equal to or better than the original pack before the failure occurred.

The intent is to provide complete peace of mind about owning your Model S even if you never read or followed the instructions in the manual.

On the other hand, the warranty itself does not really back it up:

The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will expe rience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.

People are claiming they've received emails from Tesla assuring them the battery will be replaced if it drops below 70% within the 8-year warranty period, but as one of the comments on that page calls out, that leaves a lot un-answered:

I was interested in purchasing a model S. I tried repeatedly to find out what criteria was used for warranty replacement of the battery. But Telsa would not answer me.

I also tried to find out whether a battery replaced under warranty was new or used. But Tesla would not answer me.

I also tried to find out whether a battery replaced under warranty was replaced without charge or if there was a pro-rata charge for time used, and if so the base price of the battery. But Tesla would not answer me.

I'm not surprised Tesla failed to personally respond to emails from this car-shopper, but the point is, they shouldn't have to - it should be in writing already.

On the one hand, Musk is saying all the right things:

Except in the cases of a collision, opening of the battery pack by non-Tesla personnel or intentional abuse (lighting the pack on fire with a blowtorch is not covered!), all damage is covered by warranty, including improper maintenance or unintentionally leaving the pack at a low state of charge for years on end. The battery will be replaced at no cost by a factory reconditioned unit with an energy capacity equal to or better than the original pack before the failure occurred.

The intent is to provide complete peace of mind about owning your Model S even if you never read or followed the instructions in the manual.

On the other hand, the warranty itself does not really back it up:

The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will expe rience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.

People are claiming they've received emails from Tesla assuring them the battery will be replaced if it drops below 70% within the 8-year warranty period, but as one of the comments on that page calls out, that leaves a lot un-answered:

I was interested in purchasing a model S. I tried repeatedly to find out what criteria was used for warranty replacement of the battery. But Telsa would not answer me.

I also tried to find out whether a battery replaced under warranty was new or used. But Tesla would not answer me.

I also tried to find out whether a battery replaced under warranty was replaced without charge or if there was a pro-rata charge for time used, and if so the base price of the battery. But Tesla would not answer me.

I'm not surprised Tesla failed to personally respond to emails from this car-shopper, but the point is, they shouldn't have to - it should be in writing already.

I'm taking it you don't own a Tesla? Either you don't know or you're hiding the truth behind exactly how expensive their maintenance plans are. Funny, I never spent that much on my ICE to keep it on the road.

Uh, that "expensive" pre-paid multi-year plan works out to $450/year.

For an $80,000 vehicle.

From Acura to Volvo and every premium brand in between, you honestly think you can find a stealership that will charge that little of an amount to support any of their luxury vehicles for a year?

Yeah, good luck with that. You'll find out very quickly why we call them stealerships.

I'm taking it you don't own a Tesla? Either you don't know or you're hiding the truth behind exactly how expensive their maintenance plans are.
 
Funny, I never spent that much on my ICE to keep it on the road.

I believe they were about to go under and they got propped up by the DOE and the Obama Administration. They've already paid everything off and now they are of course doing a good job of keeping it going.

Not only that, but you can always take it to a Tesla Service Center.

I rarely use the brakes and typically only at very slow speeds. Even with my previous car, a Prius, people typically got at least 100K miles without needing to change the brake pads and Tesla's regenerative braking is a fair amount stronger than what my Prius was capable of.

The pre-paid service plan covers everything but the tires, so for at least the next eight years even if I do somehow wear down my brake pads they are covered. The service plan covers everything but the tires. The service also includes applying various fixes and changes that have been discovered since the car was manufactured, including minor things that affect things like rattles and noises. It includes a wheel alignment and check and replacement of all expendables. Combined with the warranty basically the only things I have to pay for are tires and some tire rotations.

So for at least the next four years I will pay $0 for brake pads.

http://www.teslamotors.com/ser...

It works out to around $475 per 12K miles, which for a car of its class is quite reasonable, especially given the level of service I get.

They're lighter too, so you need less energy all together.

Google tells me that a Tesla Model S weighs 4,464 or 4,647 lbs.
A 2008 Toyota Camry is supposedly 3307 lbs. A 2014 Camry is 3190.
I think any reduction in engine weight is made up for by the batteries.

Whatever you will spend on a new battery will be a lot less than what you pay to maintain your gas engine car over it's lifetime. There is already a robust market for rebuilt battery packs and that will baloon in the near future. (Not all cells go bad at the same time. Just replace the bad performing cells and you're good to go)

When your battery has diminished life due to age of the battery, you will not be replacing individual cells.
This post puts the cost of a battery for a Tesla S at $45k. Alternatively, it looks like you can pre-pay $12k when you get your car and get your replacement battery years later. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_...

I have no idea of what the availability is/will be for third party huge car batteries... It is a little bit of a specialty item.

Tesla recycles its batteries.

With numbers like that, the batteries don't sound all that expensive. How many batteries you would need per bus depends on a number of factors. Charge time is a big one.

Well, a quick search shows 260-360 horsepower for buses. An 85 kwh Model S is 362 hp. Now, I know that HP is far from the only factor, torque is as well, which is why buses and other large industrial vehicles tend towards massive diesel engines rather than fairly small gasoline engines that produce more 'power' on paper by the horsepower spec.

Mainly because the smaller engine will tear itself to pieces in short order if asked to do the duty cycle of the bigger engine. Still, electric motors are notoriously tough, but to my thinking a model S drivetrain would be an excellent stand-in as being for hybrid components for a bus.

Now, a Model S manages 265 miles off it's battery with a vehicle that's extremely aerodynamic and only weighing 4,647.3 lbs*.
Meanwhile a bus isn't aerodynamic, and I'm seeing 22, 28, and even 40k pounds.
That gives me electric ranges of 56, 44, and 31 miles of range per 85kwh battery pack, if you figure that lower average speeds allows the battery pack to mostly scale linearly. I'm also seeing 4 mpg for a bus - which would translate to 24 mpg for the model S of you compare the 28k pound 44 mile and multiply by the divider, so it sounds about right.

In addition we know that the wheelbase on a Model S is 116" and that the battery fits between the wheels. So a 45' bus should be able to fit at least 4 of them, assuming that with a width of up to 102" you couldn't fit the batteries in sideways.

That's without figuring on stuff like stacking the batteries on top of each other. My conclusion is that there isn't any need for roof mounting, removable seats, or even trailers for extra battery storage. If you want to save the battery weight, simply unmount them and leave the packs back at the station.

*I'll note that for a car the model S is actually pretty heavy, but we're comparing it to a bus here.

Why are guys who run factories employing tons of US citizens in US based factories (like Toyota) who produce super reliable product with great mileage get slapped by the media when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?

Are you kidding? Just wait until Tesla slips up. They will eventually, and the media will jump all over them. The only thing that the media loves more than an underdog is the story of a fallen angel.

Media are jumping all over Tesla already.

It's happened with the Tesla car fires, which are still less common per mile driven than gasoline car fires. New York Times published a likely faked review where Tesla's data logging disagrees with the reporters account, and shows that the reporter only charged the battery to a small fraction of the capacity and ignored the low battery warnings while driving past charging stations. Top Gear also faked battery trouble on their show (it was apparently in the script before they even received the car from Tesla).

2) Dealers will definitely try to sell more gas cars as they break down more frequently and the $$$ for dealers is the service dept.
 
Really? Maybe I'm atypical but I've spent less on ICE-only repairs and maintenance to my 8 year old/125k mile car than the replacement cost of a battery pack in a Nissan Leaf or the cost of Tesla's recommended maintenance plan*.
 
  Tesla has a specific idea on how to do customer experience. Dealers are the worst in this category. Tesla wants to avoid this.
 
They're fools in that case. You're asking someone to pay a premium price for a car that they can't easily go out and kick the tires on? If I get an itch or a need to find a new car this weekend I can got to dozens of places within 20 miles of my home. I can haggle and test drive. I can decide to go down the street to another dealer if I feel I'm being mistreated. For me to get a Tesla today in a state that is friendly to Tesla would take what exactly? From the consumer aspect I have a website that recommends a Tesla "Store" (sounds like a dealership to me, Vern!) that is nearly 300 miles away and I can't expect delivery until November if I place my order today. So even if I show up with cash in hand I'm still SOL when it comes right down to it.

* If you didn't pay attention to the small print on Tesla's page; The cost of an eight year service plan is 5700USD. Not subscribing to this plan may well void your warranty. I'm wondering if I need to take another 300 mile trip out to the Tesla "Store" just to have this service done every 12.5k miles... Fantastic!

Bezos "on a computer" http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacg...

Bezos on the ocean [http://mashable.com/2013/03/20/jeff-bezos-nasa-apollo-11-engines/]

Elon on the ocean http://www.ibtimes.com/spacex-...

The beast of Tenagra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...

Elon, his sales (sic) unfurled http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

Currently there are far more superchargers than hydrogen filling stations and they are expanding very rapidly. On top of that, there are tens of thousands of public charging stations at shopping centers, parking garages and elsewhere. Electricity is everywhere. A supercharger is estimated to cost under $200K. A hydrogen filling station cost a minimum of between 2 to 4 million to build and the cost of hydrogen will never be competitive with gasoline, especially if made from cracking water water.

The cost of a battery swapping station is still far less than the cost of a hydrogen filling station. Most of the time the only thing that is needed for the battery swap is electricity and periodic restocking of batteries, which may not be all that often since the cost of swapping includes swapping again for your original battery. For one thing, the hydrogen filling station will need to be manned when it's open for safety, the battery swap does not need that since it is fully automated. Second of all, the cost of a hydrogen filling station will be far higher. If hydrogen is not made on site then a LOT of trucks will be needed to transport the hydrogen since a truck can typically only carry enough hydrogen to fill around 200 vehicles due to the heavy high pressure tanks involved. Regular pipelines cannot transport hydrogen due to embrittlement and leaks. High pressure pumps are also required. The equipment to make hydrogen on-site is also very expensive, and if it is made from water then a tremendous amount of electricity is required. Most likely it would be made from natural gas through steam reforming which also releases CO2. It takes several times as much electricity to make hydrogen to power a single hydrogen fuel cell car as it does to power an EV. In fact, 20% of hydrogen's energy content is used just to compress it.

Furthermore, you will need far more filling stations since EVs typically do most of their charging at home. With hydrogen this is not really possible. The only time I need to use a supercharger is during long trips. I have no need for most of my driving which is within the range of the battery. I spend 5 seconds plugging in at night and 5 seconds unplugging in the morning. Superchargers are typically needed along long distance routes, not in every town like gas stations or hydrogen filling stations.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/...
http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...

I see superchargers popping up all over the place. They're becoming quite common along the east and west coasts. They're not needed for in-town driving since most people charge at home. The battery swap will cost about the same as a full tank of gas and includes swapping your original fully-charged battery back on the return trip. Using the supercharger is free forever.

I've used the superchargers numerous times and they were not a major inconvenience. When I drove up to Lake Tahoe from the Bay Area I stopped at the one in Folsom. I went and grabbed a burger and by the time I was done eating and using the restroom the car was ready to go and it cost me nothing to use.

Every morning I start out with a full battery. It takes me 5 seconds to plug in at night and 5 to unplug in the morning. I spend far less time charging than I ever did waiting in line to fill up with gas at Costco. Besides, I don't have to stay with the car while it's charging. Usually there's other stuff to do within easy walking distance. In 30 minutes I get 170 miles of range. They're generally only needed on long trips, not for everyday driving since it's more convenient to charge overnight at home. Even charging at home I average over 50 miles of range per hour of charging (with a dedicated 80A 240V charger).

The chargers are popping up all over the place as can be seen on Tesla's interactive map: http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...

Better Place died because nobody wanted the EVs that they worked with. Their range was also quite limited and the Better Place setup was quite expensive. With the Tesla I have a choice. I can pay to fill up in 90 seconds or spend nothing and wait a while.

My last electricity bill for around 1500 miles of driving was $62.57 for 39 days, and I'll admit I tend to exceed the speed limit and accelerate hard, so I'm not taking it easy either. Next month I'm driving up to Seattle and it will cost me $0 in electricity.

And he didn't even make a secret of it.
  Today is the 8th anniversary of his post about the "Tesla Master Plan, just between you & me"

http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

Oh, for fuck's sake. Go read the "Tesla Master Plan, just between you & me" that Elon posted on the Tesla forums EIGHT FUCKING YEARS ago TODAY.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blo...

He's only a few years & 1 model behind schedule; not bad for the 1st real auto startup in America in decades.

Tesla scares the bejesus out of the car companies because he could very well come in from the side and own the entire industry because he's already patented all the technology needed to actually build these cars.

So what does Telsa do? It starts a patent pool http://www.teslamotors.com/cn/.... To me it's another sign Elon Musk is not only motivated by the money (or simply is willing to take a more long-term view than mainstream industry).