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Remove that support where? If you want to play ogg vorbis files on Macs, you are free to do so.

http://www.vorbis.com/setup_os...

If you want to play ogg vorbis files on iOS devices you are free to do so.

Capriccio Lite - Ultimate Music Player by MINHEE JUNG
https://appsto.re/us/ABV6z.i

Unless you want to play ogg files on an Apple Watch, Apple is doing nothing to hinder your ability to do so on any of their devices.

How does this affect the Theora and Vorbis formats ..

Get 'em right here.

Oh yeah, there's music there too. Have I said enough to get Slashdot shut down for linking, and armed men in black uniforms sent to my house to terrorize me? No? Well, how about a few more links:

• Project Gutenberg
• MusOpen
• Library of Congress
• A used bookstore
• An audio file format with no DRM
• The Pirate Bay
• The Pirate Bay via an IP address
• A porn site
• An Arabic news site
• A hacker magazine
• Wikipedia article on 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

• Vorbis files can compress to a smaller file size and still sound fine; Vorbis' better compression will cut down on bandwidth costs and keep you from being a victim of your own popularity.
• Vorbis' standardized, easily-edited comment header provides a space for you to scribble all sorts of notes about yourself to distribute with the music; this helps fans find you, your site, and where to buy your stuff.
• If you decide to sell your music in MP3 format, you are responsible for paying Fraunhofer a percentage of each sale because you are using their patents. Vorbis is patent and license-free, so you will never need to pay anyone in order to sell, give away, or stream your own music.

--------- http://www.vorbis.com/faq/

Either your just trolling or you really mean what you say in that post

The solutions that I provided are just as worthless as the excuses that an incompetent Internet service provider might give. Devil's advocacy is a common exercise of brainstorming to find counter-arguments so that their refutations can strengthen your argument. If it's looked down upon to consider how opponents are likely to reply, how can any argument be made strong?

True

Homemade as in I took it with my own camera, or is a freinds picture, or I made it myself

Copyright in your own photograph of a sculpture made since 1923 belongs to the sculptor, not you.

Not sure about that one, but if I take a picture of the sky, or make something entirely new with ms paint or something or another, that'd be mine...

homemade [movie], as in I made it, I own it

If a homemade movie can be shown to be a homemade derivative work of something else that you did not make, you don't in fact own copyright in the homemade movie. For example, a video of your child dancing to copyrighted music isn't yours unless you dub in different music. See Derivative work.

What if there is no music? lol and fair use would probably preside there as long as you're not selling it or publically displaying it for everyone to see. But say I make a video of myself mowing my lawn, that'd be mine, lol.

Homemade [music] you know what that means right?

It means you made a homemade recording of some song, but you can't necessarily prove that someone else didn't write the song first.

Neither can they, if you wanna play that game.

but back to what I was talking about, are in fact games that are free not stolen

Can you show me some examples of these free, not-stolen games? Several popular PC games released as free software infringe at least one copyright or patent. For example, StepMania 3.9 includes music and graphics ripped from Konami's DDRMAX: Dance Dance Revolution 6th Mix, and Konami has taken a StepMania licensee to court (Konami v. Roxor) over essential patents on dance video games.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=yahoo+games&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g-e1g9

http://games.yahoo.com/all-games

Um there's free software around

Any free software that can, for example, encode MP3 audio violates U.S. patents because Thomson has never licensed the MP3 patents in a way consistent with the free software definition.

I'm pretty sure encoding is fine, its decoders that you have to pay for, but I can't exactly remember off hand.

ogg
xvid
pidgin
maybe something here "Free Downloads of over 14000 free software programs."

So what happens when I get sent so many packets that I either can't send and/or recieve them fast enough therefore causing me to lag, what then?

You don't request as many packets from the servers. Most video games that I know of don't use a lot of packets; instead, like VoIP, they use fewer packets but expect them to arrive quickly.

Quickly as in speed, if they cut that down then it's not gonna work very well, like I said I don't want to be stuck doing 1 thing at a time, I might be grabbing a game, up

The reference implementations of Ogg Theora and Vorbis are both BSD licensed as you can see here and here.

Stop spreading lies and misconceptions, you dumb twat.

Could you point me to a hardware implementation of the decoder? Could you point me to a reference spec? The fact of the matter is that h264 is already entrenched with hardware decoding support on a number of devices meaning that OGG format would have to be done in software which would reduce the battery life of devices that had h264 hardware decoding.

Stop spreading lies and misconceptions, you dumb twat.

It's also the audio format that my Garmin nüvi uses. If you go into the About screen it lists licensing information for several components, including an Ogg Vorbis decoder.

As I recall, starting with Unreal Tournament 2003, the "official" music format that Unreal uses is Ogg Vorbis as well. (According to the Ogg Vorbis FAQ, I'm correct.)

So it may not be in wide use in portable media players, but it's out there.

That's what Epic have done - UT2k3 used Ogg, and I assume the more recent UT games do as well. Link at the Vorbis site.

Sorry to inform you, but your definition of "open" isn't in line with the RMS/FSF party line. Pretty much MPEG* has all kinds of patents that would exclude it from use. Theora and Vorbis are the only video/audio codecs that would most likely pass the RMS/FSF smell test.

You still need a way to either offer a second stream or embed the Vorbis/Theora stream into a browser. And you would have to require Windows and most likely Mac users to install both codecs.

Open, Free Codecs that work everywhere are surprisingly non-existent. I'd like to see that change!

Last time I checked, Ogg Vorbis was open, free and cross-platform. It was also proposed as the standard for HTML5 precisely for these qualities.

Exactly, or better yet, use those decoders to transcode content into open ones and distribute them in that format. Distribute MP3 collections in OGG, and convert video to, well, sadly the best unfettered video codec right now that you can actually use seems to be Theora, because Dirac is still being implemented into players and such, and Snow is still in development last I heard. I think the only encoder available for Dirac is something that's pretty difficult to use.

From TFA, "The online music industry has evolved so that, while there are open file format standards - notably MP3 - the major companies have so far preferred proprietary or licensed file formats protected by DRM systems."

The problem with that statement is MP3 has never been an open format. It too requires a license to use. The difference is that the spec is public, so anyone can license the technology.

For an actual open format with freely available source code, check out ogg.

Patent free? An interesting claim.

Not mine, theirs.

Well, actually, that doesn't explicitly mention patents -- but this does.

âoeAs far as you knowâ probably isn't far enough for a company with deep pockets that has several new suits against it every week.

However, Theora at least was formerly commercial, so it's had some scrutiny -- and deep pockets would suggest that they can defend themselves well enough.

Patent free? An interesting claim.

Not mine, theirs.

Well, actually, that doesn't explicitly mention patents -- but this does.

âoeAs far as you knowâ probably isn't far enough for a company with deep pockets that has several new suits against it every week.

However, Theora at least was formerly commercial, so it's had some scrutiny -- and deep pockets would suggest that they can defend themselves well enough.

"I seem to recall not long ago that MS effectively shut down IE development because in their view it was done, complete, no more to do there. Oh but then Firefox came along with extensions, tabbed browsing, and whatnot and IE started up again (imagine that, it wasn't done after all)."

Using your own words, "Troll with a F-ing boat anchor why don't you".

"Let's see, no linux, no apache, no gcc, no perl, no php, no ruby, no BSD of any kind (meaning no OSX), no advanced web browsers (as above), no ogg, no emacs, no pile of email clients (yes we would all be using outlook, from '95) ... this list can go on for a long time. Yeah that would be a great world...

Gates is referring to GPL'ed projects in the article. Let's look at the projects you listed:

Linux: Ok, GPL
Apache: *bzzt* Not under the GPL
GCC: Ok, GPL
Perl: Ok, GPL but also under Artistic License
PHP: Not under GPL anymore (see http://www.php.net/license/)
Ruby: GPL and its own Ruby License (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Licensing_terms)
BSD: existed before the GPL
"advanced web browsers": no. Opera? Safari? yah ok
Ogg: GPL or BSD-like (see http://vorbis.com/faq/#slic), but not wide-spread
Emacs: this is a joke, right?
"pile of email clients": another joke, right?

Interesting how (with the exception of Linux), the most well-known projects on that list are either dual-licensed or use some other license over the GPL..

Maybe Gates is onto something after all.

So why pay extortionate sums of money to buy good music in a format that you cannot share with others after you have legally bought it?

Purchased downloads are for plastic throwaway crap, not for proper music that you will want to cherish for decades to come.

This is confusing. The paper from Nokia states, 'Anything beyond that, including a W3C-lead standardization of a "free" codec, or the active endorsement of proprietary technology such as Ogg, ..., by W3C, is, in our opinion, not helpful for the co-existence of the two ecosystems (web and video), and therefore not our choice' Whereas the Vorbis sya that 'Ogg Vorbis is a completely open, patent-free, professional audio encoding and streaming technology with all the benefits of Open Source.' Nokia is not it elf claiming ownership? Is it an obvious mistake or something else? Will some clarify as to what is correct?

I know this will be somewhat redundant, but just read the FAQ on Vorbis' website. It explains everything that Nokia needed to know before writing this travesty.

http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#fan

Vorbis is lisenced in the public domain http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#flic. Nokia could just staple on whatever DRM they want and wouldn't have to share it with anyone. Granted, it would mean they'd have a format that no phone but theirs would be able to play, but on the other hand, when has that ever stopped anyone?

I know you said "out of the box", but for those who are looking to add it (as I was a while ago for use at work), Ogg Vorbis support for Windows Media Player can be found here.

Stallman has never claimed to be a fan of "openness", he talks about freedom. You are confusing the four freedoms with the ability to distribute in the currently popular formats. Information cannot flow freely if it is frestricted by patents, licences and other legal wrangling.

MP3 has a history of licencing and patenting issues, OGG Vorbis is patent free and open. Thus, of the two, the latter format is more likely to ensure continued access to the data.

Yes, the popular ( read: pre-installed with an OS ) music playing software make it difficult to play Ogg but there are plenty of players around. You call it fanaticism and say he has compromised to make a point. I (and many others I suspect) would say he is absolutely not-compromising and this decision is completely in line with Stallman's aims and philosophy and those of the FSF.

Linux users do not have to pay for software

There, I fixed your purposeful omission it for you.

take responsibility for your own needs and write the software you want.

Isn't free software up to the challenge?

Where have you been for the past twenty years?

It's perfectly fine to use Matroska, especially when you want to include SSA subtitles (very common in anime releases) or SRT subtitles (also common with anime due to being able to be muxed in an OGM container). Sure, GPAC (MP4Box et al.) can automatically convert SRT subtitles to Timed Text (ISO/IEC 14496-17), but that's not always desired (SSA subtitles can be styled in many different ways; TT cannot).

Also, you can't mux [Ogg] Vorbis in an MP4 container (I believe you can do that in a MOV/QuickTime container, however; also, using the private data stream hack doesn't count), and Vorbis can match, better, or come close to (dependent on source material) the quality of AAC at the same bitrates. Also, if H.264 (ISO/IEC 14496-10 for those who care) is truly now a public domain standard, then it would be far more desirable to mux H.264 video with Vorbis audio as both are open, unencumbered standards. It would also be good to do this in Matroska as that is also an open, unencumbered standard (QuickTime's file format may or may not be patented, but I'd guess it is).

Now I'd definitely recommend using MP4 if everything you're muxing is part of the MPEG-4 (ISO/IEC 14496) standard (e.g. H.264 (or even DivX/Xvid), AAC, TT) as that would make most sense, but beware the limitations of the MP4 container format. The "subtle differences" between MP4 and QuickTime/MOV are the codecs supported.

To be precise, what you've described is vorbis, not ogg. Ogg is the container, vorbis is the codec.

Nevertheless, well said.

We would still be paying Ogg for the patent on that wheel thing

I'm pretty sure Ogg would want it to be unpatented...

I'd like to know other slashdotters bought Neuros Audio and want to share their experience. I consider bying one and look for experiences like the parent post. Anyone?

Also, Neuros Audio III is in design, maybe I should wait?

MP3 will be just as or more "free" than OGG (public domain is "more free" than GPL, sort of)

Then go and make another codec that can compete with the commercial versions that prevail on the open market and give it away for free.

kind of like this?
http://www.vorbis.com/

1. All software violates patents

There are so many software patents nowadays, I'm sure it's impossible to write all but the simplest software without treading on somebody's patent. But to suggest that distro owners should knowingly violate patents is kind of negligent.

The patents are only valid in the US and Japan

I know they're slightly biased, but on the MP3 Licensing web site, there's an extensive list of patents which have been granted in an equally extensive list of countries.

The point is moot in 3 years anyway when the patent expires. So, there's no time to popularize ogg if that's what they're attempting.

Again, I'd refer you to the MP3 Licensing web page. If you assume a patent duration of 20 years from filing, the first patents may have begun to expire but there's still quite a number of years to go until all the ones necessary to implement a full-featured decoder will have expired.

I'm all for keeping things 100% FLOSS, but as long as a piece of software has source code and is freely licenced then personally I don't care if it violates patents. Its one thing being forced by law not to use MP3 playback, but voluntarily removing it preemptively...isn't that a little like jumping off a cliff to avoid getting pushed off?

Apparently quite a number of the big free distros have legal teams who would disagree with you. From what I've used, neither Fedora nor Ubuntu include MP3 playback support and it's precisely for this reason. It's OK you advocating violating patents but these distros are made by non-profit organisations who have a lot to lose if they come on the wrong end of a patent lawsuit. At least they make the effort to make MP3 support available. If you want MP3 support, either pay for a commercial distro or quit whining and take the 2 minutes to install support for your distro. As you say, one day all these patents will have expired and even the free distros will be able to ship with MP3 support out of the box.

Of course, most Linux distros ship with support for 2 excellent audio formats out of the box: Ogg Vorbis and FLAC, both of which are better than MP3. Ogg Vorbis is a lossy CODEC which provides better quality than MP3 at a lower bitrate. FLAC is the lossless CODEC and provides CD quality with 30-60% compression. Neither contain any patents that we know of (that in itself is important) and both work great on Windows too.

What are you talking about?

The page you linked to doesn't list support for the Ogg container format or the Ogg Vorbis audio format. The ffdshow audio decompressor page doesn't list Ogg Vorbis and says that it is "almost unusable".

It is stupid that anyone can sue over decoders! They are only used to get to content that has already been compressed. It is necessary to use them in order to get the the video/audio that some idiot used to encode/compress them. When someone pays Lucent to distribute a decoder, they are not paying for the technical superiority of the algorithm, they are paying so it can get to the content. What incompetence in the government there must be for this to happen. Somebody needs to get kicked out of office. Stupid politicions.

    I hope Microsoft has the legal might to hit Lucent hard upside the head. Probably not, that would mean us open source users would not be as fucked on the issue of legal decoders. Just like how Microsoft won't incorperate an ogg vorbis decoder into their bundled media player.

    Just a little sidenote, if you intent to distribute content please use the Ogg Vorbis codec, so people like me can get to it.

Every time you buy a PC, that comes with WinDoze, you end up with another license.

WHY?

If you bought windows, ONCE, why buy it a second time, a third, a fifth?
Just because you trash a pentium and grab an AMD dual core system, why pay AGAIN for Windows XP?

Personally this is pure FUD - did the old copy of windows go stale? Isn't it market fresh?

Just a TAX on computer users, screw them - go Linux!

Oh, and iTunes DRM is pure RICO monopoly bullcrap.
France has it right, force Apple to open up.
I would like to see all Apple downloads as OGG files.

Now, it's all too late. I'm afraid MiniDisc will slowly but surely die out-- and that will leave me and all of MD's die-hard fans who supported the platform since day one without portable music.

And that, my children, is why you shouldn't buy in to proprietary, closed technology such as Mini Disc or iTunes. If you are left without portable music, that is because you didn't choose portable music to begin with! Let this be a lesson...

GPL? Better tell that to Xiph

The Ogg Vorbis specification is in the public domain. It is completely free for commercial or noncommercial use.

The libraries and SDKs are released under our BSD-like license.

It is surprising to note digital music is only six percent of total music sales in 2005. So digital music is just starting and its a good time to come out of the hype see what professionals use.

Everybody now days use mp3. Is that the only music format available? No. There are other music formats available which are far more superior to mp3 but not widely known yet.

Ogg is similar to mp3, but its a completely open and free format. That is, if you want to create audio (eg. Music, podcasts, etc) create in Ogg. You are not breaking the law. The mp3 is a patented technology.

If you are an audiophile, its shame to play mp3 in your HiFi. Consider FLAC. The FLAC is the ultimate audio format, its loose less, high definition and again completely open and free format. There are FLAC players in the market like iAUDIO X5.

I have evaluated the Tomahawk Desktop, its Linux based multimedia OS, you can use it to convert your CDs to either Ogg or FLAC. Its amazing, its just drag and drop! To transfer to your Ogg or FLAC player, its again just drag and drop!

Another advantage of Linux is you can play without getting hit by viruses and worms.

Then why does the Ogg Vorbis FAQ say, "it is completely free, open, and unpatented"?

Why does the Flac FAQ describe it as an "open patent free codec"?

Please explain in what sense they are encumbered.

In some of the cases, a choice of different engines for use is provided. Sometimes, a change in an engine will crash the app! And there is no easy way to know this choice even exists.

I particularily appreciate the folks at http://www.mplayerhq.hu/ for a job well done.

But again, I fine Linux feels heavy, even on an AMD 2800+ Sempron processor with 512MB of RAM. On the other OS, it's all a snap.

Can someone tell me why http://www.vorbis.com/ is still not that popular?

I will stick with my Neuros.

It even plays Ogg Vorbix files.

Thats a must-have for me, since I ripped all my CD's using Linux, which doesn't include a legal MP3 encoder (not that this matters much, since ripping my own music for my own use is illegal.

Complexity? In 2006, Winamp is by far the lightest, fastest, and least complex of all the major Windows media players.

Yeah, I sure want to convert all my things into an extortion format to play via my DRM promo program, instead of enjoying any kind of freedom. Sheesh.

That's more interesting. How come otherwise sane and smart people suddenly swallows this crap just because it's packaged in a shiny box? It's a slippery slope here people, and if you accept this, then further restrictions will follow.

Freedom to use your legal music anyway you wish to is a must! Boycott DRM!

it will help legitimize the online music industry

It will help legitimize DRM! We don't need more extortion schemes, we need Freedom!

Do not support this. It's bad, even when Apple does it, mmkay? Slippery slopes and all that...

That's a very, very, very, very bad idea. Let me explain why.

First.
Let me get some definitions straight:
mp3: Lossy format. Converting to mp3 means encoding your music. The best encoder is LAME (As proof, I suggest you check out hydrogenaudio)

ogg Vorbis: Lossy format. Converting to ogg means encoding your music. The best encoder is (offcourse) the original ogg Vorbis encoder.

mpc/Musepack: Yet an other lossy format. Converting to mpc means encoding your music. The best encoder is (offcourse) the original Musepack encoder.

flac: Lossless format. Converting to flac means compressing your music, as in: "I just compressed a text file, and did not lose any bytes in the file during compression". The best compressor for FLAC is offcourse the original FLAC Compressor.

Compressing: Making filesize smaller, without loss of data.

Encoding with lossy format: Making filesize smaller, at the cost of audio information.

Second.
To transcode your .mp3 files into .ogg, you'd need to first convert all of your .mp3 files into ogg. This would require the use of the LAME encoder (To convert the mp3's to wav), and then the ogg Vorbis encoder would have to convert all those wavs into .ogg format. You will lose all your id3 tag information.
Anyone who comes up with a simpler/faster solution (ie. "You dont need to convert to wav first!"), has very little to no insight into how digital audio encoding works, and what happens in the process of a transcoding/encoding/decoding.

Third.
If you convert from a lossy format to a lossy format, you will lose significant amounts of quality. DO NOT CONVERT FROM LOSSY TO LOSSY!
It does not matter if you convert a 320kbps mp3 into super-high-quality ogg - You still get huge amounts of loss due to the fact that the original material is lossy.

Fourth.
If you want to test out ogg Vorbis, then encode any of your legally bought hi-quality cd's to ogg, and listen to wether you like the result.

Fifth.
This should be obvious, but I'll tell you anyway: If you convert from lossy to lossless (ie wav or flac), quality will NOT increase.

Hope I could be of some informative value to you.

I find that, for the money, the iRiver is a much better player and has many more features. I have an iHP-140, and the things it has built-in that a standard 40GB iPod does not have are: A) Vorbis support - the best (in my audiophile and freedom-loving opinion) lossy format! http://vorbis.com/ MP3s distort the high and low end a *lot*. Makes songs sound awful. But everyone loves .mp3 for some reason... weird. B) FM tuner - Not that I *listen* to the radio C) Built in recording support as either .wav or .mp3 - and the ability to use an external mike. D) Shows up as a USB Mass-storage device on every operating system - so you don't need any crappy proprietary software to get access to *your* data! Besides, you have music players and jukeboxes on your machine already, right? E) Long battery life - mine lasts 13 - 16 hours playing 256K vorbis files, after owning it for more than a year. F?) Not sure if iPod has this, but optical output as well as analog. Awesome sound quality. G) Other codec support - .wav, .wma, .ogg, .mp3. Check it out if you are thinking of buying a music player - http://www.iriveramerica.com/ Also check out the XClef, who's main feature is that it has a *lot* of storage space. The largest I have seen was 100GB. Disadvantage is that it is shaped like 1/2 of a brick. http://xclef.com/pro03_e.htm This is the up to, apparently, 137GB model. -Nick

Vobis is still around today and doing pretty well. Comtech went bankrupt but was bought be another company and is still in business today. Unfortunately both are not experimenting anymore, you can buy the usual HP, Acer, Sony notebooks, an ipod or their own brandname computer there with WinXP.

But does a Vobis computer play .ogg?

http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp

* Vorbis files can compress to a smaller file size and still sound fine
* Vorbis' better compression will cut down on bandwidth costs
* For a given file size, Vorbis sounds better than MP3.
* If you decide to sell your music in MP3 format, you are responsible for paying Fraunhofer a percentage of each sale because you are using their patents.
* Vorbis is patent and license-free, so you will never need to pay anyone in order to sell, give away, or stream your own music.
* Epic Games (the makers of Unreal Tournament, et. al.) have used Vorbis in their games ever since releasing Unreal Tournament 2003 to compress game music without having per-game license fees sap profits from every game sold.
* Vorbis saves developers money by avoiding patent-license fees.
* Ogg Vorbis has been designed to completely replace all proprietary, patented audio formats. That means that you can encode all your music or audio content in Vorbis and never look back.

Need I say more?

-Joe

I don't see how MP3 can be both patented and an ISO standard at the same time... if it's use is restricted, it's not a standard damn it... :::cough::ogg::cough:::

BSD vs GPL: FIGHT!!!

Seriously, didn't Matt Asay already explain this, only a couple lines above this "Which license is better!?!OMGWTFLOL!!!

"...no one open source license is ideal in every circumstance. Different licenses serve different ends..."

It doesn't get any simpler than that, and I can't believe that anyone could believe that either license is 100% better, or better in any application than the other. Christ, even Richard Fucking Stallman has agreed that the BSD license is more suitable for some uses than the FSF's own Copyleft licenses.

That being said, I'm an LGPL or "GPL+exception clause" person, myself. If you want to change the community's code, you have to give back. However, simply building on top of a Free platform, like GNU Classpath, or GNOME is different. Building on platforms like these expands that platform's usage, so it's still of benefit to the community that built that platform.