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Why Sony Should've Put Its Weight Behind Hi-MD
An anonymous reader writes "OSNews has an article making a case for Hi-MD: 'Currently, .mp3 players are all the hype. Everyone has one, and if you don't, you're old-fashioned. I do not have an .mp3 player. I tried to have one, but for various reasons it did not please me. I'm a MiniDisc guy. I've always been. MiniDisc has some serious advantages over .mp3 players, whether they be flash or HDD based.'"
Why do I use a HD mp3 player? It stores a large amount of music. I don't want to have to juggle around dozens of cds or in this case minidisks, I have over 15 gigs of music on my mp3 player and I don't have the time to find the disk that I want when I want to listen to certain things, nor does the space it takes to store all the disks appeal to me. I like having a device which can store large amounts of data - after trips with groups I'll normally get a dump of all the pictures that the group has taken and put them on my mp3 player to transfer.
I've tried the mp3 cds (which was giving me 700 megs of storage compared to the 305 megs you get from older minidisks using the hi-md format), but I ended up having too many... and when I wanted to add music to it it meant that I had to burn a whole new disk... and I just plain didn't like using it... and my mp3 player has proven to be a whole lot more solid than any cd player I've come across (I've dropped it many times, left it out in my car through all the extremes of Michigan's weather, and its still been great).
Now you are saying that Sony should push MORE single source products? Everybody hates them for Beta-max, Blu-Ray and ATRAC-6, and you are looking to be MORE single source?
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/05/28 God bless Penny Arcade!
Flash-based MP3 players have the ability to equal or better MiniDisc players on every single count - reliability, size, weight, upgradeability, shock resistance, water resistance, speed, versatility (how many computers have built-in MiniDisc drives, versus built-in flash readers), etc. etc.
I wouldn't trust Sony no matter how good their format is, really, simple because of the fact that their formats, such as Memory Sticks, tend to be compatible only with their hardware, they don't like other formats, and there's none of that competition that makes the free market work so well. If I put music in an unsupported format on a Minidisc, I would have to re-encode, losing quality even more.
MP3 players work fine. As I mentioned before, I purchased an iAudio U2, which cost only a hundred and gets me MP3, WAV, and even Vorbis support (something I'll never see from Sony).
Finally, Sony's prices are a little too high for an item that's sure to get knocked around a lot. I'd rather have to replace a $100 MP3 player than a $300 machine from a company
The author of that artical makes a very good point. MD's are more durable than an mp3 player and can record. But the problem is they are not as convienient. Sure, they can fit 1 gig of data per disk, enough for a bunch of songs, but most people don't want to be carrying around lots of disks. And then durability. If you think about it, how many people are actually going to be riding their bike over their mp3 player as mentioned in the article? Unless there are some VERY strange circumstances, I think that won't happen.
I'm still sticking with my IPod
echo YOUR_OPINION >
See MD vs. CD.
The last thing Sony needs is a new proprietary format (hardware or software). Hard drives can be re-written much quicker than optical media, and no-one wants to buy a device whose media may become obsolete within a few years. If people want a lot of storage capacity they'll get a hard drive based player, if they want quick loading times and durability they will get a flash based player. If they want to buy preloaded physical media, they will buy a format that's been around a while (cds).
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Theres shitloads of this artcile that just sounds like sour grapes.
r y+mp3+player+hours+waterproof&btnG=Search
I initially started on the 30hours playback from an AA battery and easily found some mp3 players offering upto 50.
Then he says that you can't get an iPod wet, well guess what - people make waterproof ipod cases and theres loads of fully waterproof player recorders on the market.
Heres my test search:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=AA+batte
liqbase
Sony could have dominated the mp3 player market. At a time when flash player where not carrying more than 128 meg of data netmd player's where cheap and good.
sight if only hi-md came to the market sooner, if only sony would have open up it's interface for a small licence fee... if only they did not limit the bloody thing to atrac and sonic stage. hi-md players could have easely rivaled the mini.
after all 45 hours of music on a single, generic, AA battery is not to be ignored .
About a year and a half or so ago, I was looking semi-seriously at buying a MiniDisc recorder of some kind. A couple of people in the saxophone studio where I study had them, and it could really be handy for portable, off-the-cuff recording and playback of practice sessions, which is what I wanted it for.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find one in production that fit my needs. I could not find any assurance that I could do what I wanted with a MiniDisc player from specs I was seeing online. I eventually figured out that the people who had the MiniDisc recorders all got them overseas (Japan for sure, maybe Australia as well?). I see the article author does have a recorder; I wonder if that's new or something, or if he got it somewhere other than the U.S. as well.
I have no other reason to want one of these devices, and with Sony's reputation of late, I don't need one that badly anyway.
The only time I ever saw a minidisc player was when one unit was being sold as a discontinued item. MD was the "Circuit City DivX" of audio formats: an aborted dead end that never took off.
Do people actually care about mini-discs? Hell no. Although the mini-disc player preceded the mp3 player it is still lossy and is a useless unsupported media format. The compact disc has been around since 1982 and because most folks don't care about audio quality these days the CD will be the defacto media format for years to come.
Enough of proprietary formats that lock you into one brand of hardware... whether it's called MD, UMD, ATRA or anything else (frankly, even AAC).
My sig is too lon
As long as Sony continues to be run by the record label division, Sony, the consumer electronics innovator, is going to die.
The article forgets to mention the idiotic copy restrictions that MiniDisc players have along with the mentioned ATRAC/soundstage/can't drag 'n drop files limitations. They are basically shooting themselves in the foot because the record label is paranoid about copying. Nevermind MD, whatever happened to my cheap DAT device?
If Sony wants to survive as a consumer electronics company it should split from the music label.
It's painfully obvious that the author of the article is still stuck in the 90s. Of course, most people that haven't owned an iPod also think this way. The main thing with an iPod (or any HDD-based music player) is that you have _all_ your music on it. You are not limited to the songs on a particular disc, and you can find any song in your collection in under 20 seconds. Not to mention, this is all on one compact device. I guess if I wanted to look like a dork and carry around 30 1GB minidiscs, swap them every 5 minutes, and deal with the hassle of remembering which music is on which disc, I would go with that format. Not to mention that at Sony prices, a player and 30 minidiscs would probably run you a lot more than $300. But hey, you get to stand out from the crowd by being the guy with a dorky player.
The hardware looks nice but the overall product is ruined by Sony's greed and paranoia. I'm not going to buy something that was designed on the assumption that the user is a criminal and can't be trusted.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I had a NetMD player a couple years ago and I don't think the article goes into enough detail about just how bad SonicStage really is. The interface was some crazy non-standard flash thing that ran really slow, it crashed all the time, and you had to do some weird check-in thing that would only let you burn an mp3 to 3 disks before you had to "check out" one of the copies by removing it for the disk.
It's seriously one of the worst pieces of software I've ever used. I ended up creating 1GB audio cd images of my mp3s and then ripping them using a less offensive piece of Sony software. But eventually, it got to the point that I just stopped making new disks and got tired of the ones I had. The NetMD player ended up in a drawer for many months until I gave it away and bought a Rio Karma.
I read a few reviews before purchasing but I figured the software couldn't be THAT bad. I was wrong. The battery life and the price of media were amazing though and it was a nice little piece of hardware for the $130 I paid.
As an aside, the player skipped whenever I kept it in my shorts pocket, it wasn't as bulletproof as I thought it would be from reading reviews. It skipped way more than my Karma but the Karma's harddrive eventually died so I maybe I unwittingly vibrate like a paintshaker or something.
As far as durability, I have dropped my iPod anumber of times. The iPod costs less than a Minidisk player and has the capacity of multiple disks, without the hassel of carrying extra disks around. My iPod still seems to work fine.
I also wonder how quickly on can record a minidisk. Reading a CD and burning a new one, or copying to the iPod over firewire. can happen in a matter of minutes. Does the mini disk do an analog record in real time, or a digital transfer?
Ultimately Sony wanted a protected format that it could sell content and allow a limited amount of copying. It wanted to control the format, and control access. Apple beat sony at it's own game by allowing MP3s from the begining and not worrying about the copying. For instance, a one gig Shuffle might only hold a single disc of songs, but it is easy to frequently change the songs, it is easy to recharge, and it is a significantly easier to carry around. Back when Creative was the best, those players were nicer than anything sony had. One would sooner buy a CD player than a minidisc.
So, as has been it's wont for 15 years, Sony makes cute gadgets, but has become obsesed with protecting content rather than serving the consumer. The walkman would have been dead if it required a special unit to copy, or if it had not allowed a generation to pirate vinyl to tape.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I've also been a Minidisc 'fan' since day 1. I'm on my 4rd unit now. I'll be brutally honest. The only reason I still have the damn thing is because it cost me about 300 bucks. I'm on the verge of getting a flash-based MP3 player. The arguments in the article of MD vs. other players isn't entirely with merit. But the author does cite some advantages that were great a couple of years ago. But with flash-based players out in the market, the advantages of MD diminish. Sony DID have the ability to push them and totally dominate a market. But they misstepped with the RIDICULOUSLY INSANE SonicStage software. It's a true piece of garbage. My mother could write a better software package. Sigh. In the early days, even with SonicStage, there was no alternative. MD was 'the bomb.' I would record concerts (shhh, don't tell the f'in RIAA...), record notes for classes, it was great. Only NOW, after years of complaints to Sony, can you download these recordings to your computer as WAV files with no restrictions. YEARS of complaints I tell you. Almost all the complaints were about SonicStage. Sigh. Most of the fans of MD (the ones that still clamor about it, at least) have been fans forever. And most of us are feeling far less than nostalgic. We're ready to jump ship. Sony can still save MD. A flashy ad-campaign touting the indestructability of MD's would help. Drag/drop support would help. Sleeker low-end models (with prices that directly compete with low to mid-end flash-players) would help. Just a handful of things that would cost a behemoth like Sony a few million dollars to implement. But, as the author implies, the Sun may be setting on MD. I still have glimpses of hope. But these too seem to be, well, sigh.......
Nearly all Mp3 players (if they record at all) are limited to voice recordings.
If you want to record music and lots of it, MiniDisc is the way to go.
Leave the expensive DAT for others, a Minidisc can get you up and running with
live recording and onto CD in no time.
Im not a fan of all their Atrac stuff, nor am I a fan of Sony's constant annoying
search to create their own standard. Some day companies will learn there's more to
gain from open standards than a gamble on closed standards. Sony for instance loses
nearly every time.
Betamax, Sony Memory Stick, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
My new Minidisc from Sony is more open than their previous models.
Works great - musicians, HiMd with Mic Input ! Great sound, on the cheap.
Lk4
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts", Earl Weaver - Legendary Coach of the Baltimore Orioles
sony did enuf marketing, if they put their weight behind it. it STILL would have failed. just like CD's are failing. 1 reason, they did not listen to their customers. customers want ease of use, back and forth direct digital copying, mp3 or ogg support (none of this transcode to atrac bull). They dont want unfriendly DRM. They dont want sony's crappy/ugly/bloated software. Other companies offer players that do this, why can't sony?? i dont know why. i wouldn't have hated my minidisc if i could just plug it in, open the drive and drop mp3's on it. but no i had to go through sony's horrible software that everyone hates, just to do what should be the simplest thing in the world. directly copy a file to my minidisk player.
MiniDisc offers unlimited storage space.
Sure they do, if you buy unlimited discs. You could also buy more flash drives for your mp3 player and carry them around or you could be satisfied with the hour after hour of songs most mp3 players offer (4 gB with the iPod nano). To say that mini discs have unlimited storage is intelectually dishonest. That's like saying that floppy disks have unlimited storage.
No Sigs!
On a related note, I'd like to buy a setup for 'surreptitious audio recording', namely recording of shows by artists that have an open trading policy, but who don't let you waltz in with a microphone stand. I tried this on minidisc once but having to change discs was annoying and battery life was bad.
Is MD still the way to go? Is there a good digital audio recorder out there? What sort of microphone should I get?
I was a big MD fan in 1997 up until the iPod came out. Why'd the iPod make me drop MDs?
1) At the time, you had to record a Minidisc from a CD at 1 to 1 speed over an optical cable. No way to rip to a PC and transfer. You could rip an mp3 at 8 to 1 speed.
2) Because you had to record from a CD, playlist management was a pain.
Until the iPod, MD was still competitive because
1) Flash players relied on memory cards which were expensive.
2) HDD players ate batteries and had crappy runtimes. And they were heavy too.
The iPod was the first HDD based mp3 player that had a combination of acceptable battery life, form factor, and easy playlist management.
He makes a semi-decent point about saving the format by using it with PSP. Sadly, having a recordable format would run counter with Sony's fear of piracy so that idea is really a nonstarter.
I'm a MiniDisc guy. I've always been.
:P
Interesting, interesting. Mind explaining that?
Oh wait, that's right, you were in nappies when the Sony Walkman Cassette player was around.
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
Summary of article: "I bought into a proprietary format which is (a) crap and (b) dying out, somebody please wave a magic wand and make things different."
I'm so very sorry you weren't able to see the mp3 player locomotive steaming straight at you. Tough luck, try again with another Sony product that will disappear in a few years (movies on UMD, anyone? No?)
Hello all, I have FIVE modpoints today and nothing to do with them. Reply to this thread, and I will dispense a karma point unto your account.
"I'm on my 4rd unit now" and then i stopped reading your post.
This is the key factor, I think. I love Minidisc players and I have a great one, but it's sitting unused behind my ipod. The interface software was just so crappy and so limiting that I needed to move on to something more usable.
I totally agree with all of the parent's comments about the software. I mean, to put MP3s on your NetMD, you had to let Sony's cruddy software convert all of the files from MP3->some sony format (i.e. guaranteed quality loss), and then you had this bizarre check-in/check-out system to control how you used it. The software was bloated, impossibly user-unfriendly, and generally just awful.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that when all of the Sony minidisc players became NetMD-type players I stopped using them. I now use an iPod shuffle which has a comparable level of toughness and simplicity.
It was such a shame, because NetMD players were really nice and ahead of the curve. I must disagree about skipping etc too - my various minidisc players were all incredibly tough, never ever skipped, and did get ludicrous battery life. If only, IF ONLY Sony had embraced MP3 and some kind of open interface then NetMD minidisc players really would have been something special. Remember, this is a good few years ago we're talking, too.
Read Pynchon.
In this day and age, I simply can't understand why ANYONE with an ounce of taste and technical knowledge would buy an device that can only play music, regardless of how many formats it can support.
.wav's for perfect sound reproduction.
My AU$250 PDA (sure, I bought it off eBay, but that's not the point) is LESS than the RRP AU$389 for a 4GB iPod Nano, has survived umpteen drops and falls, which a HDD-based music player of the same physical size would not be able to do.
You can get 4GB SD memory-cards now, the same size as the largest iPod Nano, and you can expand the PDA storage even more if it supports CF memory-cards as well (as mine does).
Where the heck is this guy pulling his figures from?
"The new Hi-MD format offers 1GB per disc (which can add up to 45 hours of music on one disc)"
Unless Hi-MD offers some w00t compression, he must record his songs at really, really low quality, because, say 3minutes at 3MB a song (averaging around 128Kbps... what I'd call pretty low-qualiy at the best of times), my maths work out 1GB to equal a little over 16 hours of music.
Then there's the age-old argument of quality over quantity... that CD's have a much higher quality because they are not stored in a lossey compression algorithm.
Of course, this argument is negated once you start using flash storage half a gig in size or higher, as you can just save the
Obsolete floptical media.
No MD-ROM.
Proprietary format.
If you want a disc, what's wrong with a 3.5 inch DVD+RW?
In the long run, no moving parts(flash) will be the obvious choice.
MD could make a comeback when Zip-Discs do.
I have an old school MiniDisc player that was bought on eBay. MZ-R70. What is it about 1999-vintage technology that is still so good? The little devil is 3" x 3.25" by less than an inch thick, and made of anodized aluminum. It gets ridiculous amounts of playtime and somewhat less ridiculous amounts of record time on a single AA battery. It's not CD quality but it does the job for both podcasts and live recording of my husband's many bands.
Yes there are new MD players out there. They now can record in non-compressed PCM, which only yields 15 minutes of record time per disc. However, Sony totally overcomplicated the interface with bells, whistles and a jogwheel. I couldn't figure the new one out...I will have to study TFM to figure it out for my friend Jim. The MZ-R70, however, is very easy.
I hate Sony. I really really HATE Sony. But their electronics, particularly their vintage stuff, still rocks.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
If:
(a) we could buy a 4GB Hi-MD disc for $20, instead of four 1GB discs for $20,
(b) SonicStage didn't suck, and
(c) Sony could shrink the players to iPod Nano size
then Hi-MD would be the best choice for most people. Even two out of the three would make it pretty good.
The only advantage I've seen with MD is the ability to record decent audio on the go. Get yourself a good mic and your in business.
Any mp3 players out there able to do that much? I've been rather disappointed with record feature on the ipod (crappy mics and poor bitrates).
I've heard people argue time and time again that removable media devices have "unlimited" storage capacity and can last forever on a single AA battery.
Really, storage capacity is limited to the size of the size of your pockets. And as for battery life, well, I never need to change the AA battery in my iPod... it doesn't have one. It plays for about 12 hours and odds are, it will probably find itself connected to my Powerbook before that battery runs out.
I used to think minidisk was useful as a portable recording solution, but I'm kind of over it.
If anything, I view MD as audio Beta.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
The article is clueless on some basic points.
The first is that the iPod does have the same "unlimitted" storage capacity is the Hi-MD. The cost-per-gigabyte of the iPod is comparable to the cost-per-gigabyte of Hi-MD disks -- but a whole lot more convenient. What would you rather carry with you, 100 Hi-MD disks or two iPods?
A 60-gig iPod stores more music than anybody owns. It stores more music than anybody WANTS to own. It stores more music than the average teenager has heard in their entire lifetime. No matter how you slice the pie, iPods offer essentially unlimitted music storage capacity vs. Hi-MD.
The iPod disks are much more reliable than you think. They do not spin all the time. They grab all the music you need for the next 15 minutes, read into memory, then shut off the disk. I've watched kids abuse their iPods: they stand up to more punishment than you think. iPods are for kids, they are not delicate devices. In any case, flash players like the Nano are much more robust.
Here is the thing that everybody knows: external media is dead, gone the way of vinyl. Everybody knows that things like Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD are already essentially dead and are just the last gasp of the industry. The future is Internet downloads. Todays kids have grown up with Internet downloads to their iPods and think of external media as some weird quirk, kind've the way we look at that crazy uncle who still insists that vinyl records are superior to CDs. Sony knows this is coming. They know it's coming because it only really caught on in Japan, and has been declining in the face of iPods. They know the technology is dead.
The big failure is Sony's attempt to lock in their own lame software, restrict the functionality, and limit the use of MD. These would have been a great challenge to the Zip disks 10 years ago. Imagine being able to move data and music back and foward on a USB port.
Instead Sony tried to lock MD down, limited licenses to a few partners, and starved any reason to inovate. Sharp is dropping out of the MD business in the US. It's the same story as Betamax, another better quality standard killed by corporate lockdown. You can only buy a limited number of units.
I'll keep using MD until the next big thing comes along. After all, I still have cassette tapes and vinyl. Some of which I've archived on CD. As far as portable music goes Sony blew this big time.
I can also live with about 128 kbps mp3s or even 96 kbps for some songs and I can fit enough albums on this thing to keep me happy for weeks, then I change them around. If I need space to transfer files, I just delete the music folders and use it as a jump drive.
I think the people are buying iPods just because their friends have iPods and they don't know that there other such "toys" out there with a different set of features that might work better for them.
I bought a sony minidisc. It was great, had a VERY long battery life on 1 AA battery (50 some hours). The reason i ditched it for a mp3 player, i got to lazy to great new discs. It look SO much longer for sonicstage to convert and transfer the songs. A good 20-30 minutes to complete 1 disc.
Anyway I know I'm far from the only amateur musician that uses these things to record their own stuff. It's nowhere near as big a market as walkman type stuff, obviously, but it seems like it's a market where vendors that can be satisfied with less than 100mil units/yr in sales could make some decent money. I bought a Fostex flash recorder because it was supposed to be better yet (no moving parts and no compression) but I hated it, the sound quality was bad (with the same mike that sounded great on the MD), the fiddly user interface was annoying, and it was way too big. Plus the fact that a piece of audio equipment is frickin' RED ought to be a clue it's made for the Do The Dew crowd!
So MD is ideal for some uses even if it's not great for the mainstream ADD folks who just need to hear constantly changing background noise 24 hours a day, and it'll be a shame if MDs finish dying out. It's awesome being able to get a high-quality recording of a gig that I can suck into Cakewalk for cleanup and then burn onto a CD (the opposite of what MP3 players are for), with better fidelity (to my ear anyway) than MP3s. And compressing the decompressed ATRAC stuff into MP3s seems to work pretty well too. Not bad for something I got for $140 at Sears.
Bah, whatever.... Oddly enough, I made a post somewhere else just making fun of Sony's "minidisc" just in relation to the failure of the UMD to catch on.
Proprietary tech in venues like this is ridiculously stupid. And the Minidisc was just one more failed betamax or laserdisk. I'm no mp3 player fanboy, but I realize "lost cause" when I see one. And for once, so did Sony.
But Sony totally screwed themselves because of how long they took at update the technology for higher capacity MDs. They *also* blew it by making MD require an MP3 to ATRAC conversion program (SonicStage). SonicStage is one of the worst pieces of software ever conceived. It's slow, counter-intuitive, and Windows-specific (as had been mentioned already). The iPod had already spent 1 year of gaining HUGE momentum at the time the 3G models came out before HiMD had been released. Great sounding units, great capacity, still the anchored by the same cruddy program to *SLOWLY* move MP3s to MD.
Too little, too late. By Sony.
I bought one of these devices back in August of 2005 to replace my portable DAT recorder that finally irrecoverably died. The device is really a hassle to use. Although the disk itself shows up as a removable drive, anything I recorded on it (even my own stuff recored via the microphone) needs to be imported using their special soundstage tool and then exported as a wav file before I can edit it. The soundstage tool is really buggy and cumbersome to use, plus it keeps trying to push me to their online music store.
I've also tried to use it for playing music when I am at the gym but again the soundstage software makes it hard to import the music tracks I want.
Overall the device is mediocre for all it's published uses. This is because of the software and interface.
Peace, or Not?
That's exactly what I was thinking while I read the article. No way would I ever return to a music player that requires me to carry discs around, and shuffle through them looking for whatever I want to hear. The genius of the iPod is that you put all your music -- everything you own -- onto your computer, in your iTunes library. Everything is organized in the computer. Then the iPod updates every time you charge it. It's effortless. Or at any rate, it's a lot less effort than trying to manage a shelf (or three shelves plus overflow, in my case) of physical CDs.
It's sort of like the difference between tivo and a VCR. Since I got my satellite receiver/recorder unit [disclaimer: not an actual Tivo(R)(TM) brand tivo], I can hardly imagine going through the hassle of recording something on videotape.
Saying ".mp3 player" makes you sound totally clueless. It's an mp3 player. Noone would ever say "Hey, can you rip me a dot-emm-pee-three from that album?"
The biggest disadvantage to me with any Sony media devices, as mentioned, is that they won't work on OS X or Linux systems. Even the Windows software sucks ass.
Essentially I like the idea of using big Minidiscs over HDD based devices, but until I can easily use it under Linux with my existing media in 320 kbps mp3 format, like I can with iPods or Creative devices, I'm not touching one.
I'm assuming that it still requires you to convert your music to ATRAC, lowering the quality, leaving a duplicate copy of it on your hard drive and preventing you from writing it to more than one minidisc. Just because I'm writing it to all the different players in the house doesn't mean I'm a mass pirate, it just means that the people in our house share the same music (usually listening to it at different times too).
The few people I know who bought a Sony media device became extremely frustrated at the restrictions it placed on them and the general crapness of Sonicstage. Many of them ditched their Sony devices and got iPods.
Minidiscs are useful, we use minidiscs in our school a lot for transferring recordings around, since there's quite a lot of rack-mountable equipment that will use a minidisc.
Sony, of course, kept the MD music-only (at least in the consumer market) and the niche that they could have OWNED instead went to Iomega and their shitty ZIP ("click-of-death") carts (which were $20 apiece and held 100MB, still a great deal back then).
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Okay, I have close to 400 MiniDiscs, so let me tell you why I bought into MD wholeheartedly:
1) CDs suck. There's a reason why we stopped using 5-1/4" floppies. 5" media is just too large. It doesn't fit in your hand. It doesn't fit in your pocket. Carrying a large number of them is about as fun as lugging around a coffee can.
2) CD player with optical out + MD with optical in = perfect sounding copy of a CD in a compact, sturdy package.
3) Human beings covet. They want pretty shiny objects they can hold and line up like conquests on a shelf. While some might argue their directory listing is just as sexy...it's more likely to make eyes glaze over than pop out.
4) It's nice to be able to loan someone part of your collection or make that mix tape without handing them a $300 player (remotely authorizing their computer is again, vastly unsexy as a gift)
5) My high-end MD in 1997 looked better and was smaller than any other audio player, and that includes that newfangled Rio thing that had just come out.
6) Boy, did I love being able to record long classroom lectures without losing key parts while my classmates swapped tapes.
That said, this is the year 2006 and this guy has to be a complete idiot for not realizing that the MD has an incredibly superior replacement:
FLASH MEDIA.
Your average SD card or even CF card makes an MD look like a brick. MDs are not as indestructable as this yahoo would lead you to believe. The door eventually gets flukey just like 3-1/2" floppies did. I mean, it's a moving part and (especially on compact players) takes a lot of force to slide back and forth. Once the door is bent or starts catching, you end up either removing it and fearing that you've essentially rendered the point of having a media caddy useless, or losing your $1-2 investment.
Flash media, meanwhile, is ROCK SOLID. For crying out loud, someone shot a bullet through one and still pulled off the data it. And, MD will never win awards for access times. MD was fine for a linear activity like playing a CD, but jumping tracks is also just like a CD...you wait. The only thing Sony could be doing with Hi-MD is switch to a packet-based system...which is going to be murder on fussy drive mechanics.
Yes, flash media is expensive. But you can fit the equivalent of 8 or 9 MDs on a $35 flash card. True, a 1GB MD costs a lot less but this is the same song as Zip, or Jaz or SyJet or any other removable media. And how well have they worked out? A few years from now, a 1GB removeable media will seem as antiquated as a floppy disc. Meanwhile, flash capacities will continue to grow.
The only missing part of the equation is larger selection of players where you can remove the flash media. This is how they all started out (Rio etc) and honestly, I don't know why they have fallen out of favor. It adds maybe a few dollars to the price of a couple hundred dollar player. It can do the exact same magic, but with the all the advantages I described in the above MD praise.
So I think this guy needs to wake up and smell the present. I still think my 400 MDs look pretty as hell, and evey now and then I'll relax somewhere with my faithful Sony. And if I ever need to record 300 minutes of speaking, it's still the only thing I use. But the music that's on those 400MDs is now held on a portable hard drive and whenever I have a need to share it, I just copy it over to a USB thumbdrive. If I was still a Sony guy, it would be a MemoryStick. Maybe someday Apple will decide to bless a certain form of flash media like Sony has with the PSP but until then, my target platform is still the laptop.
So, while I can appreciate the romance involved in the MD, it's over. There are smaller, faster, sturdier and ($/MB) cheaper options. He can tilt against windmills if he wants to but, I'm ready to look forward to 8GB, 16GB and 32GB flash devices.
-JoeShmoe
.
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
All your rootkit are belong to us.
my main beef with MD in the past is that due to DRM concerns, there was no way to digitally transfer audio that was recorded. you have to use the analog out and record in real time to another device or computer. for those of us who record lots of audio, it is a real pain to have to tie up your computer for 2+ hours to transfer the content from 1 MD. they have optical in which is great, but no optical out. i don't care if they have to flag the digital output stream on copyrighted works..just let us copy the audio digitally that we created. ill probably get flamed for the digital out statement, but there really are no 1st gen MD recorders that have digital out.
I don't approve of the way MD locks me out of my own music. I didn't give Sony the authority to put DRM on stuff I record, but my MD recorder takes this liberty. I don't want to hear about how I can buy a "pro" deck that turns off DRM, and I certainly don't care about "Soundstage" software or whatever the hell they make you use now, where you get three chances to copy your original or some such, and it's *erased* -- I *certainly* didn't give Sony permission to *erase* my masters.
I loved the idea of MD, but I hate, absolutely seethe with hate, to let Sony abridge my copyrights by putting DRM and copy-limitations on my work, just because I chose to use their cheap media. No thanks. CF-recorders may start at the $400 price point, but at least they don't seek to lock me out of my own work.
I really don't care how badly Sony wants to control things. When they try to control *MY* work, I tend to get very, very upset.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I feel I should amplify the parent's comments further. SonicStage isn't one of the worst pieces of Windows software, it is the worst . The software has numerous versions where many times one version or another will not install on a particular computer only to find that an earlier or later version will. I cannot over-emphasize how bloated, bug-ridden and completely and utterly unreliable this software is.
I bought one of the first Sony NetMD models and as an experienced computer support professional with years of software support behind me, I have never been so frustrated with a piece of software as I have with SonicStage. I was quite literally brought to tears attempting to get this software to work and that's sad considering that the hardware is actually very well made and offers great features like durabilty, long battery life and excellent sound.
True Dat, but you can buy a 1G SD card for $33. And it will be much cheaper next year, and the year after that. I don't see that happening with the minidisks.
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
Agreed. You touched on why Sony is probably in a death spiral. Their DRM turns off a bunch of customers, that in turn causes them to loose a bunch of hardware sales, that in turn causes them to rely more on the content side of the business and give them more leverage over Sony corp, which in turn will lead to more restrictions and turn off even more customers.
Sony needs to understand that they can either be a doomed content company or a electronics company, but not both. It simply amazes me to see how hard they have tried to kill their electronics sales in the name of content. I hope it's not lost on them that all this bad will surely has an impact on all Sony products. Somebody up there is clearly out of touch. If I were a Sony share holder, I would be pissed.
I used to be a minidisc guy - before they were made obsolete by HDD mp3 players, every one of the "advantages" this guy points to are in his imagination.
Durability: My primary HDD mp3 player is nearly 5 years old and has survived drops far nastier than what it took to destroy one of my minidisc players.
Unlimited storage space: Bollocks. By the time I was carrying 30 discs with me (because I didn't know ahead of time what mood I'd be in), the MD had become a bulky storage disaster not worthy of the term "portable". The only truely unlimited storage space is a HDD player that is twice the capacity of all the music you have ever wanted to listen too. Want to change music while cycling? Get off your bike, open your backpack, sort through a stack of discs, pull the MD player out of your pocket, swap the discs, put everything back, get going again. No thank you. MD, like reel-to-reel, is thankfully behind me now.
Recording capability: Is this guy on crack?! Even five years ago (before the ipod existed) HDD Mp3 players were better at recording than sony minidiscs, because sony was adament that there be no digital output on their (consumer) minidisc recorders, because according to sony, sony customers are thieves. Eventually, in the face of mounting losses, sony reconsidered, but they had already written themselves out of being a serious contender by that point. We moved on, we left sony behind.
Battery life: I have one of the 30-hours-on-one-AA minidisc players he's talking about. It would be nice if it worked, but much of the time it doesn't because of the low power - half the time it can't spin a disc up to speed, especially if you jostle it. Screw that. The 14 hours of a HDD player is enough for me - that's about one recharge a week, since I used them every day.
And frankly, I got really sick of Sony screwing me over every chance they got. Sony can go to hell with their proprietary crap and price-gouging accessories and nutty DRM. Now I have an mp3 player with an open source firmware, hardware features that make a mockery of the ipod, and fully upgradeable storage.
There is only one advantage to the MD over mp3 players, and it is this:
If you are so inclined, you can make your own album and disc art for each minidisc.
In every other respect, MD is roadkill to the vastly superior mp3 player. Hi-MD is too little too late - sony screwed us over on the MD, and we're not going back to the bad old days.
1.) These devices are cheap. Cheap as in, you can buy a CD player that can play MP3s at walmart for $25. These players are much cheaper than the flash/HDD MP3 players making them much more accessible to people who don't want to break the bank on something they won't use every day.
2.) The media is much cheaper than the Mini Discs. Most players can even read from CD-RWs. The cheap media is also a plus over the priceier MDs. (Your "unlimited storage" costs less; MDs don't come on spindles of 100 last time I checked.) You can also play your music in a computer if you wanted to using CDs rather than MDs.
3.) You can use MP3s! You don't need to transcode to Sony's format. But some people will probably want to reencode lower bit rate MP3s anyway.
Summary: Cheaper, non-proprietary, works with your existing hardware and software, some players have excellent battery life.
What about before MiniDiscs were created? What were you then?
Now, a common and valid complaint about MiniDisc was that they were tied to Sony
That's interesting...with my Sharp brand MiniDisc recorder, I've never felt even remotely tied to Sony.
ZuluPad, the wiki notepad on crack
That article really petered out over the course of that rant. Durability? I've had two Mini-Discs (I just thought they sounded better) and they both shat the bed on me within a couple years of use. Sony should have opened the Atrac3, to make it the format over mp3. that could've slowed the downloading of songs on the old dial-up, possibly. MiniDiscs survived because of the non-US markets for it. Sony really missed the mark on the HD-Minidisc by not using them as format for the PSP (1GB vs 1.7GB) as well. The UMD smacks of the Hubris that is Sony. Why does Sony think that every product it uses must have it's own, unique accessories? I thought the PSP used HD-MDs for a long time. It made sense, I heard about them both around the same time.
A: Doesn't store as much as HD-based MP3 players.
B: Isn't as fast or durable as Flash-based MP3 players, for slightly less space.
C: Isn't as cheap as CD-based MP3 players.
D: Software is so bad it should be criminal. Used Sonic Stage to transfer MP3's to a Sony PDA. I now own a Treo.
E: Zero compatibility with anything but other Sony MD players.
F: Not all that small, really.
Basically, like the Memory Stick, the MiniDisk doesn't do anything better than any of the offerings out there. It tries to be middle-of-the-road, but manages to be nothing special.
The ______ Agenda
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
I always thought that the Sony MD format was pretty cool. I never had one but I wanted one. However the iPod kicks its ass in many ways. Not only that if you compare recording devices for use in live or small studio applications the mini disc recorders really pale in comparison to flash or hard drive based recorders. Apple does limit the iPod in some ways but to blow past those I added iPodLinux to my iPod and it is fully feaure packed. I can even record stereo files via a mic or inputs at up to 96Khz. While I have always had both Mac and PC's around I prefer to use the Mac. People claim that there are other players than the iPod but few if any of those support the Mac. Even Real which touted giving iPod users a choice did not have a Mac version of their music site. Last and certainly least is the coolness factor of using and being seen with your iPod. Actually I could care less if people know I own an iPod.
I looked at other players before getting an iPod most we so butt ugly but more important they were either a pain to use or in the case of the Creative Zen players the in-store demo players would crash. Hardly inspiring. I spent the extra cash for the iPod and have not been sorry I did so. There may be a place for mini disc players but I would be really hard press to find one given the power of flash and hard drive based recorders and players.
..that mini-disc player was my last Sony product..(walkman --> walkman --> discman --> minidiscman -(4years)-> iPod)
What I discovered, after breaking down and buying a high-capacity iPod (though this would hold true for any high capacity player) is this: Once you can carry around your entire music collection, you begin to think differently about your music. I listen a lot more now. But much more importantly, I listen more to "obscure" things. I have rediscovered those one-good-track CDs and those off-the-wall good songs that have lurked in my collection for years, gathering metaphorical dust, because the one good song was never worth the bother of digging out the CD -- and because eventually the one good song drifted out of my immediate namespace due to info crowding.
Sure, you could archive it all on computer and then just custom-make MD versions of your playlists. You give up spontaneity, though. Often I think of a song I'd like when doing something when I'm not at the computer. (I know, it's hard to believe there are such times...)
Perhaps as significantly, using iTunes+iPod, it's ridiculously easy to make playlists that range over my entire collection and to have those updated easily to the iPod. I don't need multiple copies of songs, because they're all symbolically linked, an efficiency that appeals to this aging geek.
To sum up, having a large-capacity player revolutionized music for me, because it put me back in control of what I listened to, when, and in what order.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
I don't have much love for MiniDisc -- actually I rather hate it, just for the business it might have taken away from DAT, which is a format I really could have gotten behind if the labels hadn't conspired to kill it -- but I believe at least some of the MD players had digital-optical outputs. IIRC, MiniDisc equipment was where the 1/8" combination electrical-analog and optical-digital Toslink plug came from. It's a regular stereo mini-jack, but there's an optical transceiver in the very tip of the jack/plug. I can't cite specific models nor do I claim to know this for sure, but it's been suggested to me that this was the case.
So I think you could plug a MD player into a computer with a SPDIF port, and transfer the recording that way. Of course being "all digital" doesn't necessarily imply "high quality," since the recording is lossy. The resulting 44.1kHz PCM file that you'd get on the receiving end would include a lot of bits that were being reconstructed by the MD player, and not in the real on-disk recording.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I agree with this author 100%. the reason i switched to a shuffle was because of the crap software.
However you are not forced to use Sonic Stage, you can also use Real One. But honestly, when Real One is the better alternative, you know you have a problem.
Mike
I heart the RIAA & MPAA, im sure its mutual...
In Asia, Sony promoted the living Hell out of the MD, Betamax, and a ton of stuff we've never seen in the states.
Whatever happened to the MD format, I remember when it was unveiled in 1992, back when the idea of a CD-R available to the masses was unheard of, and (AFAIK) mp3 didn't exist.
Seriously, I don't get what the mystery is. If you want to sell a product, you advertise said product. Disney didn't bother to advertise Tron sufficiently, as such, it was a box office flop when it came out. IBM didn't bother advertising OS/2 sufficiently, and it fell to Windows 95. Sony has a good assortment of digital media available that still receives little to no advertising, so how is this any more surprising?
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
The only advantage of my old MD player that I will concede is that it takes standard AA batteries as an option. However, that is incidental. The iRiver can happily record a full day's conference, for example, on a single charge.
It also does a good job with music and can record to uncompressed WAV. I use the same mic as I did with MD, a Sony that uses plug-in power.
I am not advocating this particular device, which is sadly no longer made. But it would take a lot to persuade to go back to removeable media of any kind.
Whereas a device that would transparently stream to internet-based storage in the background over wifi might catch my interest...
I was gonna buy an iPod Nano, but now you've given me a better idea!
I've go this huge box of, like, at least 4000 double-sided, double-density & high-density, floppy disks that I haven't touched since, oh, 1992. (I'll drill a hole in all the double-density disks so more stuff will fit on 'em.) I'm sure they'll still work fine; I'm pretty sure floppies never go bad, right? Anyway, storage for my new MP3 player is gonna be free and unlimited. I'll plug in two floppy drives so I'll never have to disk swap, unless the song is longer than three minutes.
Advantages:
* Cheap
* Infinite storage, just like a MiniDisc player
* Don't have to use ATRAC format or Sony software
Disadvantages
* Don't own a drill
* Can't find the key to the padlock on my storage locker
* The box with the disks is probably full of spiders -- I hate spiders
Now if only I could find some way to store MP3s on the AOL CDs I've been hoarding, or figure out a way to stream them over all these Cisco 675s or NuBus Token Ring cards I've got sitting around.
But I imagine many really early adopters were disapointed with with the early mp3 players.
.02c
Namely the creative players, the Jukebox 1 was 6 gigs a nice peice of kit at the time but it had A LOT OF PROBLEMS it ate batteries like mad (6 batteries for 4 hours)...
It used the Creative Playcenter software (not replaced until they got past Jukebox 3[or one of the first small ones]).
If he tried one of those I can see why he wouldn't be motivated to give mp3 players another shot.
Just my
Sorry, but this article is a troll. Minidisc sucks, it always has. It could have been something great if Sony had developed it as a more free (i.e. the user can do what they like with it). Being an apologist for Minidisc is tilting at windmills.
One thing I had not considered is that because Sony is both a content publisher and a hardware developer, that the company has an internal conflict over Copyright policy.
The problem is that with respect to music and movies, Sony does not enjoy absolute control over both the medium and the content. Sony DVD's and CD's must work on any other CD or DVD player, and Sony DVD players and CD players must work with any other music CD. With the Playstation this is not a problem, since they control the entire platform.
I think that the reason that Sony does not fully back the mini disk platform is indirecly explained in the article. Sony's hardware divisions would love to make Minidisk a dominant format. But Sony Music wants to sell assloads of music CD's. To do that, they must sell to the established platforms. And that is not the minidisk.
I think that being both a consumer electornics company and a publisher is probably not a great advantage. You cannot pursue a business plan with your electronics that can harm the business model of the publishing arm. Sony could not do the MP3 player because the publishing arm did not want to in any way hurt the sales of CD's.
END COMMUNICATION
First, see http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/index.php?title=AT RAC3&printable=yes ... they have a good breakdown on some of the problems with Sony's portable devices.
That said, I don't know who could enjoy Sony's MiniDisc system. I spent more than 20 hours two years ago trying to get that damn SonicStage software and that garbage ATRAC3 format (or even just copying from CD) to work. And when I picked up a slightly used Sony Clie I was shocked they were using the same ungainly software.
I just had to post that -- I couldn't disagree more with the idea that Sony is anywhere near the creature that came up with the WalkMan so many years ago.
MD players are sweet indeed...used a single AA on a month long int'l trip...even swapped minidiscs w/a kid from Japan next to me (I'd like to see you HDD/flash player guys do that ^_^). Don't get me wrong, HDD/flash players are fantastic, my only reason to use the MD format was at the time I got a player and 10 discs for ~ $100, whereas a comprable amount of storage and player goodness would've run me easyily $250+. Ultimately, as the prices plummet further, I will no doubt eventually retire my MD.
While I utterly detest the use of Sony's proprietary POS software, I'm a little more than shocked that no one on this entire thread has yet to mention the use of REAL Player to transfer data to their MD players. Granted, I hate REAL as much as the next guy (there's been a lot of rhetoric about how utterly lame proprietary formats are), but it made the transfer rather painless, and provided some, albeit however minute, redemption for REAL. It's sad that korporations can't get the clue that their tired and played out strats of cornering markets w/proprietary formats that are ultimately left in the dust by those in the respective industries who realize the power of collaboration... ah well.../rant
>> But the software is so crappy I would give the whole thing a D+.
I remember at a previous job we had a Sony digital camera. (This was around 1999.) As an experienced computer user, I never got used to the software. It was very bad, absolutely not intuitive, and of course there was no alternative.
Someone cleverly said.
>Nearly all Mp3 players (if they record at all) are limited to voice recordings.
>If you want to record music and lots of it, MiniDisc is the way to go.
Actually, no.
Buy one of the mp3 players that records in great quality.
For example the Iriver H320 models. Then install some open
source software on it and suddenly you have a unit that beats
any minidisc recorder at its own game.
I bought the MD as a cheap home recording solution for band rehersals and so on. The hardware was excellent, but alas, there was no way to transfer my recordings digitally to the computer.
The analog transfer to my laptop was tedious, as I lost the track information. Just as bad, the quality of the recording was ruined in the extra DA/AD process.
So I bought an iPod, installed iPod Linux and used that as a recorder. And that was the death of my MD.
I bet he still has an 8 track player in his car and keeps asking his local video store why they don't have any movies on BETA.
then this article should have been about how Sony should've pushed the MD-Data format over a dozen years ago, instead.
Back in 1992 or 1993, they came out with a little data drive, which would have been exceptionally useful for things like laptops. As far as I know, laptops didn't actually get built-in CD-ROM drives until Apple released one in 1996, so the MD-Data format would have been an excellent bridge format between desktop and laptop machines, with better capacity (140MB) and design than the Zip drives that were becoming popular (and absent the click-o-death, of course). While the unit I saw in a magazine was external, it appeared small enough to fit in the laptop floppy bays of the era.
The discs back then were expensive, but I don't think they were any more expensive than Zips were when they first came out. And, of course, volume production would have led to lower prices over time. And bonus: I think the external unit would also play MD-Audio discs. So immediately that could have built market share for that format, too.
MiniDisk technology is a Sony product I personally considder to be a "has been" product. The following is part personal opinion and part fact based off of wikipedia and a price check on amazon.com.
Lets look at its history: Released by Sony in 1993, the first generation had a whopping 140 - 160 MB capacity (roughly 60 minutes of music). It was never really popular in the USA because of the limited albums (most labels laughed at MD), and the fact that it was very freakin expensive for consumers to buy the disks and hardware.
Of course, at that time (the pre-CDR era), it was a good idea and was better quality than cassette tapes. Of course, people still used cassettes (even to this day) due to the fact they were cheap and had more capacity (60, 90, 120 minutes).
Then the mp3 came... people used thier computers and burned CDR's which worked in their cd players and were still significantly cheaper. People still use cassettes, too.
Of course, Sony saw the writing on the wall and eventually released Hi-MD. This made the older MD hardware obsolete, but the disks were now held upto 1 gig of music (roughly equal to 94 minutes (PCM) to 45 hours (48 kbit/s)). Plus they now supported mp3 through lousy-ass software. Too bad the iPod (and other mp3 players too) came out and had not only a better software interface, but also the option to have upto 40+ gigs of storage space.
If Sony (and the other manufactures) would have been able to deliver a cheaper MD player in the US market, it would have been the next greatest format. Unfortunately they didn't...
Another way to look at it: the economics of Hi-MD [and Blank Media] vs. the world:
Sony MZ-RH10 Hi-MD Walkman $350
[Sony Hi-MD media $9]
vs.
Apple 60 GB iPod Video $340
[no blank media available]
vs.
Sony WM-FX290 Stereo Cassette Player $50
[10 pack of 120 minute Cassettes $9]
vs.
Coby CX-CD1112 Personal CD Player $25
[Blank CDRs (50 pack) $10]
MD is still more expensive as a format and for the most part is almost irrelevant to the US market today.
Navicula hydraulica plena anguilarum est. Omnes castelli tuus nostri sunt. Ed elli avea del cul fatto trombetta.
The only real advantage I can see described in the article is the battery life. The cost is about the same as the equivalent iPod Nano (1GB, nobody wants to carry disks around as well) and recording is a non-issue for most people.
Apart from that, his MD has a tiny screen and weighs around three times as much with a battery. I would say Sony didn't bother marketing it because they realised it wouldn't sell.
Because of another proprietary format...
Of course you can tell me that Apple has AAC, but its not a proprietary format, and the iPod and iTunes can play all of your MP3 files.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
Minidisc is the way to go if you are a musician, plug the disc into your mixing desk and record using your digital optical in. MP3 players are great for listening to music but Minidisc is the way to go to create those demo masters.
The new Hi-MD format offers 1GB per disc (which can add up to 45 hours of music on one disc)-- and a disc only costs a few Euros
....) playlists, all using the same music library.
.mp3 player revolution, MDs only competitors were CDs and before that, tapes. :)
45 hours on 1 GB? that's 53kbps... 1 GB (1GiB) is still 18 hours @ 128kbps.
One disk costs EUR 7.00, so here's a little price comparison for people who want an mp3-player (and don't use the recording or video functions) (all prices in Euro's):
1 GB iPod Nano: EUR 159
1 GB hi-MD: 150 + 1*7 = 157 : roughly the same price
2 GB iPod Nano: EUR 209
2 GB hi-MD: 150 + 2*7 = 164 : MD is the best choice, but the iPod has no moving parts.
4 GB iPod Nano: EUR 259
4 GB hi-MD: 150 + 4*7 = 178.00 : MD is the best choice, but the iPod has no moving parts.
Here's the gap between occasional music listeners and music lovers. Non-existing market according to Apple. You either have a handful or a lot of cd's. My iPod 3G 15GB is too big for most people while I can't even put half of my collection on it. Maybe the hi-MD could fill this gap up.
30GB iPod: EUR 329
30GB hi-MD: 150 + 30*7 = 360 : iPod is better
60GB iPod: EUR 439
60GB hi-MD: 150 + 60*7 = 570 : iPod is better
Add to that the ease of selecting playlists (of any size you want, not limited to 1GB) instead of carrying a wallet with md's around, and I don't see why I should buy a hi-MD recorder. The only advantage over mp3-cd players is the size.
Another thing, if you want certain songs on multiple playlists (disks) with the hi-MD player, you need to copy them on multiple disks, decreasing the actual capacity even further. On my iPod I have a couple of similar ("all music", "best", "hard", "easy",
Before the
He forgets DCC
Now, I think that that is a pointless battle: you won't beat Apple in its current winning mood. Forget it. It ain't gonna happen.
True.
I actually got used to that Pink color scheme...
Like, Scary!
Ah, cognitive dissonance at work. Don't like the fact that mp3 players are successful while your beloved MiniDisc isn't? A healthy dose of "lalala I can't hear you" will help with that, and soon you'll have yourself convinced that reality will change just be cause you want it to again...
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
I used Shitty Stage to transfer MP3s ONCE to my Clie, and stopped. I now directly drag/drop mp3s onto the memorystick and use another mp3 program to play it such as Aeroplayer.
Although the variety of formats supported by the "other" mp3 players are nice such as Vorbis!, memory sticks are not worth the price, CF on the NX80 is too much effort, battery life is kinda short, and the lack of the iPod's slick interface besides iTunes integration and organization (Winamp missed the boat here too) makes even this flexible predecessor unattractive.
Sony seem completely COMPLETELY incapable of creating any software for their products that even approaches mediocre. Their hardware, whilst of poorer manufacturing quality than previously, is good. They bring out new technologies and from a hardware point of view, do integrate them - I can take the Duo out of my camera, check the photo on my PSP and send it via from my phone. The software I received with each of these pieces of hardware is pathetic and each seems to have been subcontracted out to a random outside company.
Sony needs to leverage their technology and hardware standards to create a single platform. Install a big unified system on your PC and then just download the extensions required for each product you've built.
For Example if I bought a tune online from them, taken a photo with a camera, I'd like it to appear in an iTunes like system that'll let me say synch the music to my W800 and view the photos on my associated PS3 - you get the point, that's just an example, but I just cannot believe they've not got around to making it. Currently I see new Sony kit and am tempted - then the fear sets in as I see it comes with yet another shonky software product that seems to have thousands of forums dedicated to bashing it. Surely I should look at a new Sony product, feel my wallet twinge and become overcome with happiness at the ease it'll integrate into my life with and excitement at a new line in my unified system's GUI.
"... and toss all the music you have on it right now, to boot. I don't hear of people doing this often."
My wife and I take 4 or 5 SD cards full of music with us when we go on vacation. When we run out of space on the card in our camera, we start deleting music from the other cards. It's nice having 4 gig of music with us, but it is even nicer knowing that we will definitly not run out of room for photos.
Given that I would likely have bought the cards whether I had an mp3 player or not. This help in the price difference between the SD and miniDisc.
http://www.kanai.net/weblog/archive/2005/11/22/21h 17m54s
-Copyright law #69:Whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain,copyrights get extended by 25 years.
Need to tell more ? http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilb ert-20060331.html
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
And so far so good. I wanted to stay away from iPod 'me too' syndrome. On the train, no one covets your Hi-MD. The SonicStage software was particularily bad when I got the player, but the most recent version is OK. It's not iTunes, but it's OK. I got it also because I'm a clutz with electronics. I've killed a lot of gear just dropping it in the floor. I'm not willing to spend nearly $400 for an electronic hard drive casing. I've dropped the MD a couple of times from distances which would've killed an iPod (once from a couple of flights of stairs). No damage done: just pop the battery back in and the disc and we're ready to go. Benefit number two is that I get two weeks, sometimes more, out of a SINGLE Triple-A battery. I have one of those Duracell rechargables for my digital camera, and I just use one for my MD. No need to be tethered to an AC plug, or a computer, to get juice for your player. Not in reach of your charger? Buy a pack of 2 Triple-AA's. Done. It's a dirty shame that Sony wasn't more dilligent with the format. When flash drives come down to a reasonable price point I'll probably shift. For now, I'll stick with my Hi-MD.
the future is but past forgotten
Minidisc was a great idea, which I bought into early on, and kept-on using for many years... in fact, I used them exclusively up until very recently.
Back when MD started, CD-burners were painfully slow, and unbelivably expensive. A few hundred for an MD recorder, plus a couple dollars for a disc (same length as a CD) was a great deal. Problem was, Sony crippled the format from the very beginning, with SCMS copy protection, and completely failing to introduce MD drives for the PC.
The MD, as an incredibly reliable, and almost infinitely rewriteble M.O. format, could very, very easily have replaced Zip disks, and floppies, back then. Instead, Sony totally dropped the ball and didn't allow them to be used as data storage. This also kept the content locked-up in propritary home audio components which you could hardly copy from, and had to very carefully copy to, in real-time. It took Sony about a DECADE before they came up with their NetMD products, and finally got their most BASIC computer integration working, and FINALY imlimented better-than-realtime recording (and even that was really only if you selected a very low-quality setting). It certainly did not allow you to copy your pre-recorded songs off the minidiscs, and neither did it let you even edit tracks that you transfered from a computer... Really a serious case of lock-in hell(tm).
Still, MDs were a great format at the time, and even now are pretty good. You can hardly imagine how much easier it is to exchange minidiscs, than to swap CDs. The MDs are nice and small (single-hand-sized) and have a caddly, much like floppy disks, which eliminates concerns about how you handle them.
In fact, to this day, even though I own HUNDREDS of them, I have NEVER had a single one go bad. Neither through thousands upon thousands of cycles of repeat recording/erasing, nor through vast numbers of edits and song relabling, nor through physical damage from sitting out in the sun, or being dropped in the dirt, kicked and stepped-on. Really really tough. The players, on the other hand, only last about 2 years of heavy use in my hands, if that. At several hundred dollars in the beginning, I'm immensely glad I got that 4-year warranty, which certainly ended up costing Best Buy a hell of a lot of money.
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These days, though, just I can't see any market for minidiscs at all. 512MB CompactFlash cards can be had for $25, and thanks to Moore's law, they're rapidly getting larger and cheaper, without requiring any change to the devices themselves (unlike discs of any kind). CompactFlash cards are smaller than even minidiscs, and much more flexible. Besides, just try to find a USB-Minidisc drive for $6, like you can for CF cards! Personally, I'm pretty pissed SD/MMC is taking the market. CompactFlash cards are still twice as large, half as expensive, and as small as I (personally) ever want my data storage devices to get...
Minidisc can't take the hard drive market, because carrying 60 minidiscs around still can't compete with a 60GB iPod. HOWEVER, I wish we'd see a DVD-Discman. Just imagine, a CD-sized player with MP3 (and hopefully Ogg and Flac) support, that plays your MP3 CDs, but also handleds dual-layer DVD-RWs. That could be almost 20GBs of music per disc (asuming double-sided, dual-layer). Now THAT could be some real competition for iPods.
Which brings me to my next point. Sony has one amazing thing going for them. Battery life. My portable Sony CD (MP3) player/radio is supposed to get 40 hours of battery life, and with my high-power rechargable NiMH batteries, I figure I'm getting almost double that.
That's the kind of figure Apple can only dream of. Not only do you go an incredibly long time before swapping batteries or plugging in, but you can use an external 15 minute battery charger, buy a fresh pair of AAs off-the-shelf wherever you happen to be, and NEVER have to worry if you're going to be able to get a replacement battery pack from the company that sold you the device.
That last i
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
If all you want to do is record to MD from am audio source, as long as you can connect them physically you're good to go. You could also get hi-fis and separates that had MD recorders in, and so solve the problem that way.
And if you wanted to record an entire CD, or maybe even a track or two off a CD, and you had an MZ-Nxxx model, you could also fire up the NetMD Simple Burner and rip them, no questions asked. I never used Sonic Stage because I was able to do all of my ripping and erasing with more or less a single button click.
"Max, come over here. French-Canadian bean soup. I want to pay. Let them leave me alone." - Dutch Schultz
1- if you buy 60 minidiscs at once, you can save a little bit
2- if, as you assert, most folks only use half a 15g ipod, then you don't need 15 or 30 or 60 blanks.. only 7-8
so, 150+(7*8)= 206, $123 less than the 329 for the 30gig ipod.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
who wins dollariwse if you need 61gb of music?
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I had a minidisc player, way back in the day, and the article is way off base on a number of points. Where to begin...
First off, durability. I dropped my minidisc player exactly once... and that was the end of it. There is something to be said about all of those mechanical parts, from the ejector mechanism to the laser head reader, etc etc. Thing never played again.
He quotes unlimited storage space... in case 60 gigs isn't enough for you. This same argument could be made for MP3 CDs, which hold almost as much as the 1 gig minidiscs, and are a whole hell of a lot cheaper and easier to find. Either case, nobody wants to carry the stupid things around all over the place.
He comments on how MD users expect high quality but that they put up with SonicStage (and ATRAC/MP3 only recordings)
The author obviously has an illogical bias towards this particular media. To be honest I think the whole thing reeks of fanboy-ism.
That's why I'm still attached to my good old Sony DNE570 cd-mp3 player. It is powered by 2 AA batteries, I use 1800 mAh Ni-MH rechargables, and even though it's been about 2 years since I got these, I still recharge them not more often than once a month. When the rechargables were new, they could sometimes last 2 months(!) Nowadays 2500 mAh rechargables are a common thing, switching to these will extend the lifetime even more.
I use the player on a daily basis, 2x1h for trips to the uni and back, and whenever I'm going somewhere nad have no one to talk to - I play music. I think I can safely call this "intensive use".
My friends have players of all colors and flavors, hard-disk based, flash-memory based, others use PDAs or their mobiles... but frankly - they all suck when it comes to power consumption.
Another thing is that even though the cd-player contains moving parts - I have *NEVER* experienced skipped sound! They might have a hell of an efficient buffering mechanism - it works flawlessly.
One more detail, the Sonic Stage software that came with it sucks indeed, which is why I never use ATRAC for my CDs (although they say that using ATRAC will lower power consumption too).
CD-players might be bigger and have a smaller storage capacity, but I have never seen an alternative which can beat my DNE570 at the 'battery life' parameter.
The saddest poem
all i can really say is too little too late. I had MD's for years well really since about 1998. And i loved it, had 2 home players, 3 portables, even a car stereo. And hundreds of discs. And honestly it was nice. But in the end hte space thing kiled it. Now my ipod i have a car adapeter for. It plays videos, too many advantages. 1 gig is nice .... but i have 30gigs of music on my ipod. Dont want 30 discs. And i tunes is easiest thing to use.
Yes, MD had many advantages "back-in-the-day" and even today some may find it to be a suitable platform. But this guy is living in another reality.
2GB SD costs $50 (slickdeals.net/techbargains.com) and nowadays flash MP3 players are dirt cheap, tiny, durable, and feature-rich. Minidisc players have slow access times, inferior interfaces, and cumbersome transfer procedures.
Most people do not want to deal with the hassle of juggling dozens if not hundreds of discs to carry a large collection. A 1.5-ounce 4GB flash player can carry a decent amount of tunes. And there are 60GB hdd-based players coming in at under 5 ounces that are slower than flash, but faster then MD (and are reasonably durable).
He makes one good point: Sony should've used a backward-MD-compatible disc in the PSP. Otherwise his post is simply an example of someone blinded by years of frothing-at-the mouth fanboyism.
I'm a pro audio engineer based in London and got an invite to the unveiling of the Sony MD in 1991 at their newly acquired studio in the West End. Went along, free drinks and all that, and a nervous Japanese guy came out and demoed the amazing new machine. Sound quality wasn't that great (first version of ATRAC I believe) and wasn't well EQ'ed but it was impressive for its size and resistance to jog and shock. The amazing part was when he took the disk out and it still kept playing! I can remember thinking 'we really don't need another format' (cassettes, vinyl, CD were all going strong) and noted that no other music labels seemed to be interested in supporting it. I questioned the engineer at the end who told me the disk was about 100Mb in size and I begged them to release the thing as a super-floppy storage device telling them this is what people really, really needed. Just drew a blank on that suggestion.
The next couple of years saw the release of Iomega Zip drive at 100Mb and was a worldwide smash selling millions of units while the Sony MD limped on like some forgotten part of evolution. They could have taken that market in 1991 but obviously didn't fit in with their music division plans - such a shame.
Of course now, Sony has a unreliable and unattractive reputation in pro-audio and is going nowhere whereas when I started (end of 80s) Sony Broadcast ruled the whole business. Basically a company in decline not helped by different divisions actually competing with each other.
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
Consumers are realizing that Sony devices are expensive to own due to lock-in, making their products less desirable than the competition. Consumers are purchasing devices made by the competition, which don't have such issues. This is an example of the free market working perfectly.
MD? Hi-MD? A new proprietary format by Sony? I beg you. As others have pointed out, flash memory is the way to go.
A Hi-MD (1 GB) costs about $3. A cheap 1 GB SD card about $30. That's 10 times more expensive, I admit. But look at this: I remember prices of about $8 for one MD when they came out (1991); now they're about $1. That's 1/8 in 15 years. And I think we can realistically expect that the price/size ration of flash memory will halve about every 18 months, while the price of Hi-MDs will drop about as slowly as the one of MDs. That means that flash memory might be as cheap as Hi-MD in 4 years from now.
Flash memory thus has the following advantages compared to Hi-MD:
Now, what Sony should have done IMHO:
The sad thing is that this would not have been too hard to do. Flash reading/writing devices are here. USB mass storage device drivers are available. FAT32 drivers are available. Open source implementations of at least WAV, MP3, OGG, FLAC are available. Supporting that would not require incredible amounts of processor power which aren't needed anyway for ATRAC. The device is programmable anyway. I'd just wish some high-quality hardware - which is no problem for Sony - which is usable and has a reasonable design. Which should be no problem too.
I don't understand why no big company is doing that. I'm sure there's a market for this kind of device - even if the price is steep.
and I thought it was yesterday!
(this is offended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I'd love to do the same thing with my my hard disk MP3 player (which has a line in), but I would have to get a preamp to use with my microphones, and the only portable preamp I've found costs $200, more than getting a Hi-MD recorder.
... the FA says:
MiniDisc has always been and always will be a high-quality device. MD users expect that quality
Sony should have put MD into its PSP gaming device instead of comming up with a "new" UMD disc format. I think it probably would have been cheaper to have a recordable MD instead of developing a new disc format that from all accounts is failing at everything except psp games.
but it just reeked... software, convenience, value/price, no pre-records... and the market said NO quite resoundingly. the Teac Elcaset was technically superior in its day, too, but it looked and sold like the revere/wollensak tape cartridge.
which should serve as A Lesson For Our Time to the blue-laser super-DVD crowd. if you don't come in cheaper and deliver more from day one, we will hold on to our LPs/CDs/DVDs/2-inch quad VTRs.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Now a 1-2GB rewritable, portable, removable data media is kind of cool. Flash is doing it though. MD can be fairly robust though. Maybe if they can make a 15GB to 20GB version, push it as a data device. We never would have had zip disk if sony did this when MD first came out. In fact, if they were smart about it, we would have dumped 3.5" floppies and all media would be with MD, CD or DVD now for computers.
Sony has taken some chances and movies on UMD, MD for audio only. Why didn't they use MD as the data store on the PS/2? Rather than an 8MB custom flash, put a minidisc in. The replay movies on Gran Turismo would make more sense if you had some real storage. Lot's of great technology but they don't seem to know how to get it in to consuumers hands and make it win. Even blu-ray HD is a cool disc, movies aside, I want that as an archival format. It's like they are too big for their own good. Take MD, rev it again to get 10GB densities, make it the defacto removable media format for data, be it movies, music or just digital computer data. 10G optical disks are nice.
ATRAC is lossy. MD is not professional equipment. You can use it for a low-quality demo tape, but that's about it.
In the late 80's/early 90's this was good tech. It is not anymore.
There are much better solutions out there. And, again, lest a falsehood be propogated, ATRAC, the encoding format found on minidiscs, is lossy.
My Sandisk 1GB unit lasts about 25-20 hrs on a single AAA battery. So I just throw in a few extra batteries into the oh-so-small case that I have for it.
I wouldn't trade it for an ipod. If you have half a clue, it's much more "convenient" than the ipod. Of course, YMMV and yes, I have used an ipod.
Now, it's all too late. I'm afraid MiniDisc will slowly but surely die out-- and that will leave me and all of MD's die-hard fans who supported the platform since day one without portable music.
And that, my children, is why you shouldn't buy in to proprietary, closed technology such as Mini Disc or iTunes. If you are left without portable music, that is because you didn't choose portable music to begin with! Let this be a lesson...
Funny, I do that all the time. Click on folder of MP3 files, drag across to folder in iTunes representing iPod, drop. I really don't see how it could be easier.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
They are *trying* to make it a portable drive. It's just only in Japan right now, and a little on the expensive side. However, if the location and price change, this could be pretty awesome. Right now it's cheaper to get a MZ-NH600D off Ebay for around $60, which is what I did. I use it to archive my pictures and important documents. Afterall, magneto-optical disks have an archival life of around 50 years. Disks are pretty cheap, too.
I don't use it for music. I tried, and although I love the sound (I've always loved the sound from my Sony players over the years), I just can't get over the software. SonicStage should die. It should be drag and drop, with no drivers (other than the generic storage driver) or software. If that ever happens, Sony just might start making a profit off these things.
Ps. The MZ-NH600D and the PIT-IN drive (and other Hi-MD players) don't need a driver for removable storage, at least. So that's exactly how I use it.
-Ares
His main issue seems to be the fragility of HDD based players versus MD hardware. I have had both and I am brutal on "pocketable" hardware. I have dropped my ipod on the hardwood floors of my house, I have sweated all over it, it has deep gouges from being dropped in parking lots and accidently kicked on its face across the parking lot. Hard drives seem to be much more solid that they once were, and the hard drive is the only moving part in the ipod. My MD player on the other hand, has had a much more gentle life, but has needed much more work. It has a motor that turns the disk, at least one that moves the little reading head, it has springs and latches that open the door and lock the disk in. Compared to a HDD it is a virtual Rube-Goldberg contraption. Mine has had to be serviced several times. My initial reason for decreased use of the MD is that ATRAC format is the most audibly unpleasant compression format I have ever heard. Apparently the new MD players can record losslessly which would be great for live recording although there are some cheaper HD recorders specifically designed for music, (phantom power etc) that are better for taping. If I want 150 lossless albums on my ipod, no problem, if I want 150 lossless albums on a MD player I have to carry 150 discs.
As far as bettery life. I recently flew from Hong Kong to Atlanta (~17 hours) and the two year old ipod played for 14 with some left to spare. I had a small extra external battery but it was not needed.
In short, I don't think fragility is an issue, there are better music specific recorders, storage is far better in many ways than the MD, and battery life while not as good on an ipod, is perfectly adequate, even for long trips. There just aren't enough positives to keep the MD in the game. Particularly since hte bulk of his article seems to be trashing the interface.
According to society I'm old fashioned... and proud of it!
Really, though, why does everyone "need" an mp3 player? I don't, and won't for a while.
All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us
As MP3s were a new thing back then, I gave feedback to Sony from their site, asking them to somehow incorporate the storage of mp3 files onto the MD discs and be able to play it instead of recording straight audio using ATRAC3 on them..
Their response was, yeah thanks for the feedback, we won't do that, if you want to use the MD, record it using audio and ATRAC3 cause its the best format ever...
This was even before the days of NetMD where you transfer the songs on there, you literally had to hook up optical out or analog out into the MD, please play on the CD and record on the MD.. and wait 74/80mins until it finished for you to have a usable MD!!
If only they went ahead with such a plan early on, they would've cornered the market big time. Now seems sort a little too late don't you think? Although the hardware is really nice and its something else, having all these little MDs around and using them to play them
I like to listen to music sometimes when I work, or when I'm riding the Subway, or when I'm walking a mile home from the subway, or when I'm driving. Not all the time, but sometimes I really want to hear a certain song or album.
Having an iPod with all my music on it means that whenever the mood strikes me I can listen to whichever of my music I want to. It's literally freedom--the freedom to listen to what I want, when I want, easily and quickly.
You could just as easily have asked "what is this new perceived need to make or take phone calls anywhere" or "what is this new perceived need to use your computer anywhere you want." But chances are you probably have and use a cellphone and maybe a laptop too.
Such freedom is the future, might as well get used to it. More power, more portability.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
http://aes.harmony-central.com/119AES/Content/Sony /PR/PCM-D1.html
4 96-main.html
it looks incredibly cool too.
m-audio has a cheaper thing
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2
Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros http://euclidian.org
What is this eye-toons (?) you speak of? I've never heard or used it before. I do have an eye-Pud (G5 60GB Video) that I have tons of music, videos, and movies on it. I luv it!!
By separating the physical storage from the information, MP3 players allow music to be transferred, backed-up, and cataloged, and leveraged by modern information management methods. Specifically:
There is really no comparison between MD and MP3 based audio management, they are in completely different leages.
i owned a minidisc player a few years ago. i think atrac blows. i think ... ... .. kewl
i makes u deaf or stupid
i'd buy one if the players (and recorder) were flatter, would let me just
drag and drop mp3 (or any files on the disc). it's pretty simple. i mean
re-recordable 800 mb is cool wat not. like the future floppy drive.
i still have a floppy drive
a mp4 movie on a minidisc
i vaugely remember it too and iirc it would play audio minidisks but not record them.
iirc it was fairly expensive and not particuarlly high capactity (a bit better than zip but nowhere near cd)
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
i honeslty cant think of one.. i mean how much easier can anything be then to have mp3 files you can drag and drop in explorer to your play for sure device. ?? cant get any easier then that. no disc spinning so it uses less power.... so then what are these advantages?
Right now the old RCA flash memory player I'm using is pretty close to my ideal music device. Not quite there because of some problems handling folders containing HUGE amounts of music.
What I really want is a player with the following features...
Internal flash memory with expansion slot that will work properly with a 2GB SD card
Power supplied by a single alkaline AA battery, not some lithium-ion or lithium-polymer battery
Backlit screen, doesn't need to be color
Sensible menu and interface, and the Forward/Back/Pause/Play and volume buttons all easy to operate through a layer of clothing, like a windbreaker or rainproof jacket
Durable - My old RCA lyra bears dents, dings, scratches, and scuff marks from many drops on hard asphalt, and works like the day it was new
Full equalizer functions, not just some stupid presets
Drag-and-drop USB interface, and folders used to organize music
If nothing matching this description is on the market when it comes time to replace my current player, I'll actually buy the damn parts and build it myself, in WOG fashion...
look at the price of thumb drives and flash cards. dropping like crazy, 1gb 20 bucks after rebate or such at frys. mini disc is an absurdity. carrying around a stack of discs is limiting and defeats the whole portability/size thing. having to constantly reshuffle your music collection onto a limited size format is just a chore. 40 hours on 1gb or whatever is at the lowest quality setting which is just a freakin joke. sony software is a joke and their behavior on drm and rootkits should deserve a boycott.
1gb at 320kb is 7 hours. most people rip mp3 at ~192...thats just 12hours, not 40 or whatever for 1gb.
killer app of mp3 players like ipod is bringing your whole collection of music whereever and just using playlists to select what you want at anytime. a perfect jukebox without the fuss of the past where you had to shuffle stuff back and forth because of the limitations of media. achore and a waste of time. making things a chore makes people just stop using things or use them less, people have a very low tolerance threshold for nonsense. sony kills itself with all its bs
The article is seriously confused, as it doesn't properly distinguish between players (iPod and Sony Hi-MD devices), digital music formats (AAC, MP3, wav) and digital storage (flash, HDD and Hi-MD).
Hi-MD as a more wide spread digital storage format would be good, but most of his other points (no on-device editing of song titles, no recording) depends on the features of the player and not on the music format or digital storage format.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!