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Domain: xiph.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to xiph.org.
Comments · 962
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Re:Sigh.1. Why not set up a donation fund for each product? E.g. you would have a "Donate to Ogg Tarkin", "Donate to Ogg Vorbis", etc. and in Traffic provide brief estimates and updates as to how much time and money may be needed for initial release, specific feature, etc. This way, people will actually know what their money goes into, and what becomes of it. I think Namesys is doing something similar, but not quite the same. Theirs is more like if you need a feature that is not planned, pay us and we'll implement it.
The problem with this specific approach is that it lets the people with money invariably decide what we work on. This is not inherently a bad thing, especially if everyone gets access to the new code written, but it also means that we'd have to throw out a lot of good engineering implementing features that Joe Pocketbook wants. We make software for everyone.
2. Just like with Vorbis, keep everything GPL until stable 1.0 production release is reached. Then switch to BSD license. Distribute development releases under GPL only.
Vorbis went BSD long before 1.0. The problem is that I think that's kind of a bait-and-switch; Come work on this GPL product, surprise! We're making it BSD! This was easier to do with Vorbis in particular, because the number of developers on it was so small. I don't see a benefit (development or otherwise) to playing a licensure shell game, but maybe you're seeing something I'm not?
I am by no means comparing Xiph.org to Mandrake, but I do believe that same principle applies of how people view their support by donation. Ogg Vorbis is by far the best lossy compression format available today. Can't wait for Tarkin.
I agree, but the line between 'donate to a worthy cause' and 'bail out a company' is sufficiently blurred here. By the way, you should check out Theora if you're interested in video. Due out in June of 2003.
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Re:Sigh.1. Why not set up a donation fund for each product? E.g. you would have a "Donate to Ogg Tarkin", "Donate to Ogg Vorbis", etc. and in Traffic provide brief estimates and updates as to how much time and money may be needed for initial release, specific feature, etc. This way, people will actually know what their money goes into, and what becomes of it. I think Namesys is doing something similar, but not quite the same. Theirs is more like if you need a feature that is not planned, pay us and we'll implement it.
The problem with this specific approach is that it lets the people with money invariably decide what we work on. This is not inherently a bad thing, especially if everyone gets access to the new code written, but it also means that we'd have to throw out a lot of good engineering implementing features that Joe Pocketbook wants. We make software for everyone.
2. Just like with Vorbis, keep everything GPL until stable 1.0 production release is reached. Then switch to BSD license. Distribute development releases under GPL only.
Vorbis went BSD long before 1.0. The problem is that I think that's kind of a bait-and-switch; Come work on this GPL product, surprise! We're making it BSD! This was easier to do with Vorbis in particular, because the number of developers on it was so small. I don't see a benefit (development or otherwise) to playing a licensure shell game, but maybe you're seeing something I'm not?
I am by no means comparing Xiph.org to Mandrake, but I do believe that same principle applies of how people view their support by donation. Ogg Vorbis is by far the best lossy compression format available today. Can't wait for Tarkin.
I agree, but the line between 'donate to a worthy cause' and 'bail out a company' is sufficiently blurred here. By the way, you should check out Theora if you're interested in video. Due out in June of 2003.
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Re:Sigh. Another bitter programerThe very idea of offering products and services as a for-profit corporation is that by selling those you create a distinct product in the market that generates revenue and in the longer run gives you some income. If you cannot sustain such process, or convince investors that in the long-run you will earn profit, it's no surprise that your "business" is dead.
Yes, exactly. By being a for-profit company, Mandrake has decided to play by those for-profit rules. Remember: For-profit companies are officially 'in it for the money,' no matter what they choose to give away.
And all I'm saying is, 'Gosh, it would be really nice if you'd think about donating to smaller projects instead of bailing out a for-profit company again.'
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Re:Sigh. Another bitter programerThe very idea of offering products and services as a for-profit corporation is that by selling those you create a distinct product in the market that generates revenue and in the longer run gives you some income. If you cannot sustain such process, or convince investors that in the long-run you will earn profit, it's no surprise that your "business" is dead.
Yes, exactly. By being a for-profit company, Mandrake has decided to play by those for-profit rules. Remember: For-profit companies are officially 'in it for the money,' no matter what they choose to give away.
And all I'm saying is, 'Gosh, it would be really nice if you'd think about donating to smaller projects instead of bailing out a for-profit company again.'
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Re:Sigh. Another bitter programerXiph could have followed a similiar route that Mandrake did. They hired the wrong people and made some bad decisions. I realize you are bitter, but your post does not help the situation.
What situation? The situation that a company that has bled millions of dollars is once again asking for more cash from their captive audience? You're right, I am powerless to bail out MandrakeSoft. As far as 'following a similar route,' I doubt it. We never had millions to burn in the first place, and it's never been our goal to start a company and turn a massive profit.
I cannot and will not feel sorry for any company that burns through insane amounts of money like MandrakeSoft has. Just because they sell Linux services does not mean they get special dispensation; When they opted to jump into the corporate fray, all bets were off. You compete, or you die. It is often vicious. It is often difficult. It is often unfair. But that's the game.
The Linux world will be a poorer place without Mandrake. This call for help was directed at the existing community of Mandrake users. If you do not want to support Mandrake, then don't. But don't use your position to degrade them and discourage others from supporting them. That makes you a very ugly person in my eyes.
Call me crazy, but this isn't the first time that MandrakeSoft has done this. I think it's irresponsible. Where are they spending this money? How are they going through this much cash, this quickly?
While you may be a huge fan of the Mandrake distribution, please understand that while they're a for-profit corporation, they're playing the for-profit game. When my phone bill comes, I don't ask my friends and family to help me pay it, just because I am a brilliant conversationalist. I have my own debts, I take on my own responsibilities. MandrakeSoft is acting like a college kid, calling home for pizza money.
Imagine if all companies did this. Wouldn't you find it extremely offensive if McDonald's employees came up to you during your meal, asking you to help them out with some of their expenses?
"Hi, how are you? I hope you're enjoying that Big Mac. You know, we work really hard on the Big Mac, and we'd like to continue making Big Macs for the next few years. Unfortunately, the current economy hasn't been too kind to us, and we're feeling a little less like Ronald, and more like Grimace."
You would find it irritating. You would find it annoying. You might not ever go back there again, and you'd tell your friends about it. I'm just asking you to consider the nice little diner down the street when you're tired of being shaken down by the clown.
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Re:Sigh. Another bitter programerXiph could have followed a similiar route that Mandrake did. They hired the wrong people and made some bad decisions. I realize you are bitter, but your post does not help the situation.
What situation? The situation that a company that has bled millions of dollars is once again asking for more cash from their captive audience? You're right, I am powerless to bail out MandrakeSoft. As far as 'following a similar route,' I doubt it. We never had millions to burn in the first place, and it's never been our goal to start a company and turn a massive profit.
I cannot and will not feel sorry for any company that burns through insane amounts of money like MandrakeSoft has. Just because they sell Linux services does not mean they get special dispensation; When they opted to jump into the corporate fray, all bets were off. You compete, or you die. It is often vicious. It is often difficult. It is often unfair. But that's the game.
The Linux world will be a poorer place without Mandrake. This call for help was directed at the existing community of Mandrake users. If you do not want to support Mandrake, then don't. But don't use your position to degrade them and discourage others from supporting them. That makes you a very ugly person in my eyes.
Call me crazy, but this isn't the first time that MandrakeSoft has done this. I think it's irresponsible. Where are they spending this money? How are they going through this much cash, this quickly?
While you may be a huge fan of the Mandrake distribution, please understand that while they're a for-profit corporation, they're playing the for-profit game. When my phone bill comes, I don't ask my friends and family to help me pay it, just because I am a brilliant conversationalist. I have my own debts, I take on my own responsibilities. MandrakeSoft is acting like a college kid, calling home for pizza money.
Imagine if all companies did this. Wouldn't you find it extremely offensive if McDonald's employees came up to you during your meal, asking you to help them out with some of their expenses?
"Hi, how are you? I hope you're enjoying that Big Mac. You know, we work really hard on the Big Mac, and we'd like to continue making Big Macs for the next few years. Unfortunately, the current economy hasn't been too kind to us, and we're feeling a little less like Ronald, and more like Grimace."
You would find it irritating. You would find it annoying. You might not ever go back there again, and you'd tell your friends about it. I'm just asking you to consider the nice little diner down the street when you're tired of being shaken down by the clown.
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right fucking on
The early affection of the slashdot crowd for Mandrake was always mystifying to me, and by the looks of the up-modded posts on this thread, it looks like a few of them have finally figured out that they've been had. Pity it didn't happen a few years ago.
Meanwhile, projects that actually contribute something unique to the community, as opposed to Yet Another Goddamn Shoddy Distribution, languish. I've donated to the Ogg project; have you?
Emmett, any timeframe on getting vorbis support into the iPod? -
Sigh.You know what? I've had enough. These people have burned through how many millions of dollars already? Meanwhile, we work our asses off, and I'm still concerned about how to pay my rent next month. If we had the kind of money that Mandrake has likely paid in taxes alone, we would be producing ungodly amounts of software.
By my watch, with the amount of money that Mandrake has already spent, they should have the absolute best commercial distribution of Linux available. There should be no question as to the performance of Mandrake compared to any other commercial version. They should be kicking ass and taking names. Unfortunately, the only ass they're kicking is the collective behind of the Linux community, and the only names they're taking are followed by credit card numbers.
Meanwhile, we're a non-profit company that produces the absolute best-of-class general-purpose audio compression codec in the world, proprietary or otherwise. We've been through recessions and poor economic times before; Hopefully we'll live through this one, too. Everybody and their brother has a Linux distribution; Why don't you support the smaller projects that actually make a difference?
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Sigh.You know what? I've had enough. These people have burned through how many millions of dollars already? Meanwhile, we work our asses off, and I'm still concerned about how to pay my rent next month. If we had the kind of money that Mandrake has likely paid in taxes alone, we would be producing ungodly amounts of software.
By my watch, with the amount of money that Mandrake has already spent, they should have the absolute best commercial distribution of Linux available. There should be no question as to the performance of Mandrake compared to any other commercial version. They should be kicking ass and taking names. Unfortunately, the only ass they're kicking is the collective behind of the Linux community, and the only names they're taking are followed by credit card numbers.
Meanwhile, we're a non-profit company that produces the absolute best-of-class general-purpose audio compression codec in the world, proprietary or otherwise. We've been through recessions and poor economic times before; Hopefully we'll live through this one, too. Everybody and their brother has a Linux distribution; Why don't you support the smaller projects that actually make a difference?
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Re:What fun!^^ Listen to this man, for he invented Ogg Vorbis.
Hate to disappoint, but I didn't. Ogg Vorbis is the invention of Christopher Montgomery, our technical director. I'm just the paperwork monkey, gadabout and bon-vivant that runs the company. Xiph produces Ogg Vorbis (and a laundry list of other cool stuff), though.
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Re:What fun!^^ Listen to this man, for he invented Ogg Vorbis.
Hate to disappoint, but I didn't. Ogg Vorbis is the invention of Christopher Montgomery, our technical director. I'm just the paperwork monkey, gadabout and bon-vivant that runs the company. Xiph produces Ogg Vorbis (and a laundry list of other cool stuff), though.
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Re:Will the industry please rise...
There are many patents which cover the various codecs that make up mpeg4 (no, mpeg4 is not really a standard, there are just a bunch of formats that roughly look something like each other and we call them mpeg4). MPEG4 will never be free from patents. For this reason, I suggest we start doing what we can to help xiph.org finish up with theora, which has a 1.0 release currently scheduled in June, 2003.
By "help" I mean do whatever you can. If you can code, great, if not, perhaps you can spare a few pennies? -
Re:Will the industry please rise...
There are many patents which cover the various codecs that make up mpeg4 (no, mpeg4 is not really a standard, there are just a bunch of formats that roughly look something like each other and we call them mpeg4). MPEG4 will never be free from patents. For this reason, I suggest we start doing what we can to help xiph.org finish up with theora, which has a 1.0 release currently scheduled in June, 2003.
By "help" I mean do whatever you can. If you can code, great, if not, perhaps you can spare a few pennies? -
Re:misleadingthe article is a bit misleading. Actually it is MPEG-4 which is being pushed. MPEG-4 is pretty save standard. Lots of chip vendors are incorporating it and this will kind of save it from patent troubles. As of now there is no liscensing/patent problem for this. If MPEG-4 is adopted as an industry standard it will be a big win for consumers..... Now only if they adopted ogg too!
Hey there. Please place the crackpipe down, and listen to me for a moment. MPEG-4 is not a 'safe' standard. Hell, it's not even a standard. It is the same proprietary crap you've been spoon-fed for the past ten years (or more), but with a lot more companies involved, looking for their piece of the action. How will they get at it? Oh, yes. With patents. Quelle surprise.
If you really want people like Texas Instruments to do something that would make a lot more sense, you would push for them to release an expanded line of DSP's and hardware that is container and codec agnostic. Demand more from your chips. Don't tell TI 'design a chip for MPEG-4,' tell them to stop making chips that require hideously expensive compilers and NDA's.
The biggest win for the consumer is a chip manufacturer that lets the consumer decide, not a chip manufacturer that does what it's told by Dorky Portable Magazine.
I don't want TI to make chips that just support Ogg. I want TI to make chips that support stuff today, and give me at least a fighting chance on supporting tomorrow's Codec du Jour. People freak out if they buy a home computer that won't last them for a year. I encourage people to think the same way about their portable technology, as well. You shouldn't settle for less, and you shouldn't buy from companies that do, either.
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Re:misleadingthe article is a bit misleading. Actually it is MPEG-4 which is being pushed. MPEG-4 is pretty save standard. Lots of chip vendors are incorporating it and this will kind of save it from patent troubles. As of now there is no liscensing/patent problem for this. If MPEG-4 is adopted as an industry standard it will be a big win for consumers..... Now only if they adopted ogg too!
Hey there. Please place the crackpipe down, and listen to me for a moment. MPEG-4 is not a 'safe' standard. Hell, it's not even a standard. It is the same proprietary crap you've been spoon-fed for the past ten years (or more), but with a lot more companies involved, looking for their piece of the action. How will they get at it? Oh, yes. With patents. Quelle surprise.
If you really want people like Texas Instruments to do something that would make a lot more sense, you would push for them to release an expanded line of DSP's and hardware that is container and codec agnostic. Demand more from your chips. Don't tell TI 'design a chip for MPEG-4,' tell them to stop making chips that require hideously expensive compilers and NDA's.
The biggest win for the consumer is a chip manufacturer that lets the consumer decide, not a chip manufacturer that does what it's told by Dorky Portable Magazine.
I don't want TI to make chips that just support Ogg. I want TI to make chips that support stuff today, and give me at least a fighting chance on supporting tomorrow's Codec du Jour. People freak out if they buy a home computer that won't last them for a year. I encourage people to think the same way about their portable technology, as well. You shouldn't settle for less, and you shouldn't buy from companies that do, either.
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What fun!"Please use our ham-fisted standard so that the other guys with a different ham-fisted standard won't win the Battle of the Ham-Fisted Standards."
Interesting thing about that MPEG4 'standard.' There isn't one. MPEG4 for mobile devices is a lot different than MPEG4 for desktop computers, which is a lot different than MPEG4 for the professional video market. With every new iteration of MPEG, there's some company trying to shoehorn their proprietary standard into it so they can collect money on their intellectual property in licensing fees.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, while these companies fight tooth-and-nail with each other to get every little piece of tech they can into each 'standard,' they're all hoping that Philips doesn't come along and price the technology out of a reasonable profit margin.
I'm biased in that I work for Xiph, but selling a technology based on 'If you don't buy our crap, Microsoft will own your asses' is not exactly a proper technical evaluation criterion. It's like saying, 'Please buy Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, or TWIX WILL RULE THE WORLD!'
This is technology, not a run for Student Council. Whatever happened to releasing better technology and pimping the hell out of it? Sigh.
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What fun!"Please use our ham-fisted standard so that the other guys with a different ham-fisted standard won't win the Battle of the Ham-Fisted Standards."
Interesting thing about that MPEG4 'standard.' There isn't one. MPEG4 for mobile devices is a lot different than MPEG4 for desktop computers, which is a lot different than MPEG4 for the professional video market. With every new iteration of MPEG, there's some company trying to shoehorn their proprietary standard into it so they can collect money on their intellectual property in licensing fees.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, while these companies fight tooth-and-nail with each other to get every little piece of tech they can into each 'standard,' they're all hoping that Philips doesn't come along and price the technology out of a reasonable profit margin.
I'm biased in that I work for Xiph, but selling a technology based on 'If you don't buy our crap, Microsoft will own your asses' is not exactly a proper technical evaluation criterion. It's like saying, 'Please buy Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, or TWIX WILL RULE THE WORLD!'
This is technology, not a run for Student Council. Whatever happened to releasing better technology and pimping the hell out of it? Sigh.
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What fun!"Please use our ham-fisted standard so that the other guys with a different ham-fisted standard won't win the Battle of the Ham-Fisted Standards."
Interesting thing about that MPEG4 'standard.' There isn't one. MPEG4 for mobile devices is a lot different than MPEG4 for desktop computers, which is a lot different than MPEG4 for the professional video market. With every new iteration of MPEG, there's some company trying to shoehorn their proprietary standard into it so they can collect money on their intellectual property in licensing fees.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, while these companies fight tooth-and-nail with each other to get every little piece of tech they can into each 'standard,' they're all hoping that Philips doesn't come along and price the technology out of a reasonable profit margin.
I'm biased in that I work for Xiph, but selling a technology based on 'If you don't buy our crap, Microsoft will own your asses' is not exactly a proper technical evaluation criterion. It's like saying, 'Please buy Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, or TWIX WILL RULE THE WORLD!'
This is technology, not a run for Student Council. Whatever happened to releasing better technology and pimping the hell out of it? Sigh.
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While it may seem obvious...
Many people still keep using proprietary MP3 file format, which is unfortunate not because of its lower quality to size ratio, which is hard to hear for an average person, who doesn't even usually hear any difference between 192kbps and 256kbps constant bitrate MP3 files, but because of its legal issues. While Vorbis is technically similar to JPEG graphics format, i.e. it's a "lossy" compression, it is legally similar to PNG, while MP3 is in that analogy similar to GIF, using LZW compression patented by Unisys. See the MP3/MP3PRO Patent and Software Licensing Information website and search Google for "MP3 patent" to find more informations about this issue.
Also, I hope, and I'm sure most of the people here will agree with me, there will be a little "(O)" mark, next to your copyright statement! Good luck! We'll be looking for your links in the Open Music Registry!
(And please, don't post this old stupid joke that we should use double OAL logo, "because (o)(o) looks better," because it doesn't. It looks like an immature joke made by a 15-year-old child, while EFF's OAL should be taken seriously if we ever want it to successfully compete with the recording industry at large.)
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Re:Handy for porting your music to a portable play
it would be very handy if I could take an OGG I had encoded at a high bitrate (for playback on my nice home stereo) and make it smaller for use on a walkman-type player for the gym or whatever.
Speaking of such, are there any Ogg-supporting portable players, or players in development?
(Granted the Hardware Support page at Xiph has some info, but I'm curious if there's anything else known)
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Re:portables
does anyone know of a petition or something similar to get mainstream hardware manufacturers to include ogg support in their hardware?
It's not a petition, per se, but the Hardware Support page at Xiph.org lists the contact info (including e-mail addresses) for companies considering Ogg support for their portable players.
It couldn't hurt to write to them; I did.
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Peeling!Okay, I'm biased in this discussion: I am the CEO of Xiph.org and I'm also a musician.
One thing that hasn't been discussed here is that a lot of people feel that Vorbis is transparent at something like quality setting 4. Other people think it's transparent at quality setting 3. Others think it's great at 1. I release my stuff at 4, but bitrate peeling will let people peel those down to what sounds good to them. Maybe they want to monkey with it, and maybe they don't, but the option to do this without re-encoding is sexy.
It's not just a 'chop it down for modem folks' thing, it's also a letting people choose for themselves situation that I think is more important.
Features are cool, but features that give people options apart from 'use it or not' are even cooler.
That's it for me. Please donate to Xiph.org, and then go listen to some tunes. Enjoy!
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Vorbis yes, but the Pratchett 'Ogg' is coincidenceFrom someone who ought to know:
An 'Ogg' is a tactical maneuver from the network game 'Netrek' that has entered common usage in a wider sense. From the definition:
3. To do anything forcefully, possibly without consideration of the drain on future resources. "I guess I'd better go ogg the problem set that's due tomorrow." "Whoops! I looked down at the map for a sec and almost ogged that oncoming car."
(see the rest of the definition for the original Netrek usage.)
At the time Ogg was starting out, most personal computers were i386s and the i486 was new. I remember thinking about the algorithms I was considering, "Woah, that's heavyweight. People are going to need a 486 to run that..." While the software ogged the music, there wasn't much processor left for anything else.
These days, Ogg is a larger multimedia project that does not only concern compression; Squish became the name of one of the Ogg codecs. For that reason, we usually just refer to it as Ogg when there's no Netrek context nearby. The Ogg project has nothing to do with the common surname 'Ogg'. Nor is it named after 'Nanny Ogg' from the Terry Pratchett book _Wyrd Sisters_.
[...]
Vorbis, on the other hand is named after the Terry Pratchett character from the book _Small Gods_. The name holds some significance, but it's an indirect, uninteresting story.
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Re:If it runs on a Palm...
That's what I've been hoping as well. But there appears to be one final obstacle to that: standardizing the format. It costs money and is labor-intensive. Some good souls are working on it right now.
I still dream of a portable player with an open API so that it could be really customizable... hell, I'd much rather have -
Re:133 megs?!
I think it's because of the music files. The original one has them as mod, this release uses OGG Vorbis instead.
I had this game on the Panasonic 3DO console, and has been one of my all-times favorite (together of course with Super Metroid for the SNES, the best platform/adventure game ever made)
Greets! -
Ogg Theora
If you can wait a little bit Xiph recon that Ogg Theora will be ready by June 2003.
Beta stuff is already out, but I dont think you want to go into the business of beta testing. -
Re:You, sir, are a troll and a fraud
And, sir, I must say that I find your claim in your User Bio that you earned three PhDs in three years highly unconvincing.
While your style differs, your tactics -- assuming the role of a PhD and letting blind trust lead Slashdotters on -- is akin to that of the dastardedly Professor Collins, a man who truly knows no shame. A man who has claimed flaws in numerous Open Source technologies when there were none there. A man who has gone so far as to inconvenience Monty himself, creator of those two paragons of Open Source, cdparanoia and Ogg Vorbis. It is men like you two -- dangerous men -- that threaten to crush Slashdot under the weight of false information. -
I use my music CD's in my computer...
sitting at the computer just to listen to music is stupid
I use my computer to create
Another thing I do, is create backups from my CD's (after a tip from another Slashdot reader). That way, I don't have to be afraid of scratches, since I always have my original CD.
These are examples of fair use - if a company limits our rights to fair use, can we sue them then? IANAL, bue maybe one of you is (poor you, of course...)
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Re:Download all you want!
now that an integer-based Ogg Vorbis decoder (called Tremor) has been developed, one of the main hurdles for hardware Ogg support has been removed. Tremor source code here. That pretty much leaves two other areas as far as I can tell, artist support and customer demand. Hopefully everyone aware of the benefits of Ogg is making an effort towards one or more of these areas. And thanks to the codec developers and everyone generally involved in Ogg!
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Re:to eliminate a hundred comments
I believe the holdup was developing an integer only arithmetic implementation. Embedded devices don't usually have that powerful an fpu. Anybody know how much progress has been made in this area?
See the mailing list here. There are people who try to optimize the Tremor codec to fit the power of popular embedded hardware, and one japanese guy from a hardwre manufacturer in Japan was asking in October for info about hardware requirements. So progress is definately being made.
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Re:to eliminate a hundred comments
Yes.
And I'm not buying a dedicated player until it plays ogg files. I bought a Zaurus 5500 just for this purpose. I'd like to also buy a more purpose-built device for this, though, and I refuse to buy one that does not play Ogg Vorbis I files. -
How I get round it
I have a sony in car cd player, the one that can play mp3s but not copy protected cds. I was a little annoyed until I found that my old pioneer 6 disc scsi cdrom drive drm624x that I used to run on my amiga (its 4.4x not 24x speed btw) could rip copy protected cds flawlessly when used with cdparanoia (linux cd ripper utill made by the same people as ogg vorbis). Ebay has these units for $15 each. They can be got elsewhere I suspect that Google may be able to help there.
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OGG VORBIS support?
I've bought my girlfriend a Nokia 5510 recently. It's great and has a radio and MP3 player, but it doesn't support Ogg Vorbis yet.
If there's any insider from Nokia here, can he/she shed some light on future plans? Does Nokia plan adding OGG support to phones that currently support MP3 playback?
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Re:This is great
Two things need to happen: one, the Vorbis folks need to get the codec to run on these smaller DSPs with a free reference implementation
Well, the first part is already taken care of with the release of the BSD-licensed "Tremor" integer decoder. -
Vorbis Enabled?
When are we going to get some Ogg Vorbis-enabled DVD/CD Players? With Microsoft getting WMA integrated into DVD players and Xiph putting out Tremor not to mention all the MP3 integration being done, it seems these little companies like Apex would jump to add yet another feature to their players that would differentiate them in that cut-throat bargain basement market.
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StrongARM Ogg Player
http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/200202/01
2 5.html
There already exists an integerized version of the Ogg Vorbis codec that should run just fine on the StrongARM-200MHz. Should work practically out-of-the box, as long as someone makes an interface. Heck, someone could just add an input plugin to the MP3 Player, if it was designed right.
--grendel drago -
Re:ogg files?
Ogg is a patent free media format that's much higher quality than the MP3 format.
If you never want anything to improve or change, then perhaps you ought to not use a computer at all. I hear quill pens have worked in basically the same way with the same inks and paper for 100s of years. Perhaps they would be more your speed, since you seem so averse to the new and different.
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Hardware support is key factor - get the word out!
The thing that makes MP3 support so simple is the fact there are manufacturers will have chips that can decode MP3 streams for very little cost. These chips (available from Philips, Texas Instruments, and other big-name chip manufacturers) also feature an on-chip USB controller. Functionally rich - low profile - low power usage - low implementation costs. The current array of MP3 players probably share more guts than one would think.
The system-on-a-chip design eliminates the need to bundle a more expensive embedded CPU and support a software decoder via firmware. While this is indeed a better option in the long run (due to flexibility and upgrades), it could mean the difference of $1.50 per chip versus $12.00 per CPU/flash combination. Sell 10,000 units and you can see where the savings appears. Of course, take into consideration the elimination of having to implement decoding a stream using multiple chips and interfaces, the savings are exponential. Companies are about the bottom dollar - minimum cost, maximum profit.
The fact that MP3 has been so popular over the years (the first foot in the door, so to speak), it only makes sense to cater to the 95+% of those people out there that still have collections made of solely MP3s. A smart company would take into consideration emerging technologies, but nonetheless still focus on the popular demand - the one to make the most profit.
If you visit Xiph's OGG Vorbis hardware support page you can help get the word out that you want OGG support. I can only assume that with the release of Tremor and Xiph's pledge to give free engineer to time to companies that a company would be foolish not to take advantage of free development. If you take the Slashdot Effect into consideration, eventually the emails and phone calls for OGG support in future devices will be heard, quickening the availability of such devices. -
Re:Trolling or sleeping?
I heard there was a purely integer decoder developed for use with hardware which has no floating point unit. There's an article here [xiph.org], the same page you linked to. Does this require a chip with a floating point unit?
Also, does anyone know how chip intensive this is? -
Trolling or sleeping?
Vorbis decoding is much more resource-intensive than WMA or MP3. It actually requires a chip with a floating point unit.
From here:"Tremor" integer-only codec now under BSD license
Did you really not know this? This has been out for over a month. -
You're obviously an uninformed zealot
slogg vorbis is shit. Stop whining about your fucking audio codec that no one will ever fucking suport because no one wants it. MP3 is the standard and ogg will fade away into nothing.
Firstly, how can a codec that's gaining momentum "fade into nothing"? It's not mainstream now, but neither were computers, UNIX, digital audio, etc.
Second, more and more companies are picking up OGG Vorbis support. Why is that? Well, let's see. It's a completely FREE codec that is continually getting better. It's supported by an organization that's dedicated to creating free multimedia codecs for use in open, free, and commercial use -- all without charging a cent. Most importantly, however, OGG Vorbis IS superior to WMA and MP3. If you think otherwise, try looking into some of the various listening tests. Or check out Vorbis' Listen page. If you're such a blind zealot that you won't actually test various codecs, you have no right to praise or flame any codec for any reason.
Grow up and leave the technology details to people who know what they're doing and talking about.
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Re:Disclaimer: I work for this company.
Although other responses to this question have said that even Tremor isn't fast enough, I'd like to mention that Nicholas Pitre on the tremor list has been working a lot on optimizing the tremor decoder since its release. I'd encourage people with one of these boxes and willing to tinker to check out tremor from the Xiph.org CVS server, look through the tremor mail archives, and see if Tremor is still too slow.
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Re:Disclaimer: I work for this company.The ogg vorbis codec (even with the new integer implementation) is so CPU intensive that it does not fit into anything smaller than a 75MHZ ARM processor, and even then it's a squeeze. This means that despite all the merits of this format, it is not currently possible for manufacturers of inexpensive playback devices to support the format.
I don't know if it helps or not but there has been a lot of optimization since Tremor has been released. You may find it runs much faster now. You may want to review the list archives.
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Slightly OT but Important
I started a petition at Apple's Discussion board for people to "sign" (reply to) if you support Ogg Vorbis decoding on the iPod. The CPU the iPod uses is based on an ARM7 core, and will work nicely with Xiph's integer based decoder, Tremor. Anyone who supports it, especially those for whom Ogg support would be the deciding factor in an iPod purchase, are invited to add a comment here.
The only reason the iPod software revision 1.20 has Calendar, Contacts, EQ Presets, and track scrubbing is because users asked for it. So let's show Apple what it would take to convert all of us Freedom loving geeks! Support Ogg! -
Re:They don't have the best track record.
While Vorbis supports true stereo encoding, it fakes 5.1-channel audio using a "joint-joint-stereo" method, where the left-back/left-front and right-back/right-front channels and joined together into the two stereo tracks in a similar fashion. Not very good at all.
Lossless channel coupling kicks in when you encode at quality 6 and above. Graham Mitchell covers the topic nicely in his Vorbis introduction.Also, be advised that normal Ogg Vorbis files use lossy channel coupling, meaning that redundancies between the left and right channels are combined to save space. This does keep the files smaller, but also means that technically the stereo image of an Ogg Vorbis file might not always be identical to the original stereo image. If this concerns you, you'll want to encode at quality 6 or higher, which is where the lossy channel coupling is turned off and all channel coupling is lossless. Most can't tell the difference, but maybe you can.
Also, Xiph published a stereo-specific channel coupling discussion. -
Here it is
It's funny, I was just reading this two hours ago: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/hardware.html
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Re:Ogg Vorbis support?
Wow, nice troll!
While there's no dedicated Ogg chip currently, there's proably very few, if any, dedicated WMA chips out there, so immediate availability of Ogg chips isn't a make-or-break for the format.
However, as for the parent post's link to that single, outdated study, I think I trust the huge, distributed test covered by c't over one guy, thanks.
Floating-point intesive? Try again. Take a careful look at the HUGE TEXT at the very top of the page.
And how about those format specifications, eh?
If anything's a joke here, it's your post. -
Re:Ogg Vorbis support?
Wow, nice troll!
While there's no dedicated Ogg chip currently, there's proably very few, if any, dedicated WMA chips out there, so immediate availability of Ogg chips isn't a make-or-break for the format.
However, as for the parent post's link to that single, outdated study, I think I trust the huge, distributed test covered by c't over one guy, thanks.
Floating-point intesive? Try again. Take a careful look at the HUGE TEXT at the very top of the page.
And how about those format specifications, eh?
If anything's a joke here, it's your post. -
Re:Ogg Vorbis support?
Last update in March 2002
Vorbis has come a _LONG_ way since then. To my ears, OGG files sound quite a bit better, especially when one is comparing lower bitrates.
Grab CDex. It includes LAME and OGG encoders, or check out the comparison on the ogg vorbis page. You may be surprised. Please dont quote articles that analyzed the codec before the developers even considered it to be a 1.0 release (I'm sure that even the Fraunhofer encoder was quite poor before its own "1.0" release).
Oh, btw, I'm not a linux/oss/fsf zealot. I prefer windows on my desktop and linux on my servers. -
Re:Coasters?
Funny you should mention that.
CDROMS can't exceed about 50x-60x speeds.
At faster speeds, the G-forces will deform them to the point where they are unreadable. This was discovered by Philips.
See:
http://www.xiph.org/paranoia/faq.htm