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New Jersey Officially Limits G-Forces on Coasters
Well, NJ has (sadly) become the first state in the US at limiting G-Forces on roller coasters. The regulation calls for prohibition of forces greater than 5.6 that last longer than one second. NJ gave itself the right to regulate rides after an accident where two were killed from a malfunction, not excessive Gs. (A ride I rode once -- It's a kiddie-sized coaster, not what you'll find at Cedar Point, OH. The two killed were a seven year old and her mother.) This is also despite the lack of scientific evidence linking G forces to brain injury, and 320 million riders who turn out just fine every year. One brain-injury specialist interviewed said that you can exert 10 Gs just plopping into a chair, saying the state was "a little misguided."
There is a certain suspicion of mine that Slashdot janitors michael and JonKatz have ridden one too many roller coasters...
Sure you can do 10Gs and over but that's only momentarily, not for longer than one second.
Wow! 10G's for over a second just from plopping into a chair, really? No? Okay then I guess you can stop missing the fucking point, in that case.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
They had to fix the wooden coaster at Six Flags in San Antonio due to neck injurys.
In other news, Newark International Airport was shut down, because planes create excessive G-Force pressure on take-off. And accelerating your car too quickly? That's a no-no too.
(Relax, it's a joke.)
Time for me to go psycho Timothy Bottoms style till these guys ease up.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Six Flags Great Adventure in NJ is one of the best parks for coasters that I've ever been to. Gotta love the Scream Machine!
God Fucking Damnit
Well, NJ has (sadly) become the first state in the US at limiting G-Forces on roller coasters
doesn't bother me, I find it's more useful when your g-force is in the agp slot in your computer than on a rollercoaster.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
I wonder how many G's a plane gives when taking off.. (commercial) ??
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
The g-force limit is more for the coaster and less for the human. There is worry of machine failure, rather than brain damage. Besides, the 10Gs in a chair is an impulse force - the article isn't comparing apples to apples.
that you can exert 10 Gs just plopping into a chair,
Sure but that's for a really short period, nothing like a second.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
If one of those 42 people was your sister/brother/neice/etc., would you care?
"Me lose brain? Uh-oh!"
"Why I laugh?"
I'm sure the simpsons will have this on their show in no time...
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Former Astronaut, "Buzz" Aldrin seems to have suffered no ill effects or brain injury from high Gs from his flights and space shots.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
"Sadly"?
In this day and age, in the midst of the impositions being advocated by the MPAA, the RIAA, the FBI, Eunice Stone, and a hundred thousand other people who want you to keep your front door ajar, you're objecting to a law that limits the danger to which foolhardy folk may subject themselves within a tiny state no one really cares about?
Geez. Learn to pick your battles.
Please don't read my journal
my first thought was..
'Who in the hell you bring video card on to a roller coaster let alone so many as to the point it needed to be limited'
think I need to go check the side effect of these antibiotics.
I find it curious that chrisd is confident in stating that there no evidence linking G-force rollercosters to brain injury (appears to be accurate), but is equally confident in stating that 320 million riders have not experienced any particularly adverse effects, a fact that seems to be complete conjecture, without any of this highly regarded scientific evidence back it up. Who knows, could rollercosters be contributing to the degradation of cognitive capability in the world? Well, the only way to find out for sure would be to conduct research, I suppose.
A ride of a rollercoster lasts a lot longer than the fraction of a second it takes to flop into a chair. Perhaps duration and variability of the G-forces exerted should be taken into account?
Pete
Which reminds me that rollercoaster tycoon v2 is out soon.
The old one has always been installed on my notebook, with the addon packs and have provided hours of fun when I have been stuck in a boring hotel.
my sig
I really doubt you can hit a reasonablye 10G's just by plopping in a chair... unless you are REALLY REALLY f'ing fat.....
.... or just your momma's crunchy snatch.....
I recall seeing a scientific experiment where above 11G's was considered to be "unbearable" for humans for any reasonable length of time...
I remember another Discovery Channel/PBS/TLC special that showed that above a certain G-threshhold, our brains couldnt function normally.. I wouldn't be surprised that certain G-level's might cause brain hemorraghing or stroke..
But if you really believe that sitting in any kind of chair (even one 600 ft below you) could cause 10G's, then you smoking some mega-serious crack
The G-forces in military aircraft are enough to make pilots blackout (the blood goes away from the head) or redout (the blood goes to the head) with little effort. The major G-forces aren't caused by engine acceleration, rather they are caused by centripital force. Generally, the pilot can sustain far less G-force than the aircraft.
I've read they only produce between 4 and 5 g's but while your banning rides with no sientific grounds why stop at one?
-----
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Plopping into a chair produces a very short pulse at 10G. That duration is key here. Most people will pass out in prolonged exposure to 10G.
Most "injuries" related to non-bruising/bone breaking G-forces are from blood deprevation. A really long, tight turn may be enough to deprive your brain of enough blood flow to cause you (or someone with poor circulation to start out with) to pass out. After passing out, you'll just flop around on the ride, where real injury can occur.
As for direct effects, we of course have the very unscientific number of "healthy patrons" which gives us some comfort with the current state. However, it isn't insane to believe that large exposure to prolonged, high-G roller coasters could pose real health hazards. Imagine if someone built a 10G sled that accelerated you linearly, then radially for say 30 seconds. Most of the people on the ride would have a hard time walking after, and many may have passed out.
Setting reasonable standards isn't a bad thing. If someone wants to build one faster or whatever, they could always file a variance with the locality if they could prove it was safe. This just puts their rides up to (more) public scrutiny.
The really sad part is that Six Flags Great Adventure (in Jackson NJ) will basically be out of rides. Medusa is gone. Viper is gone. Scream Machine is gone. Nitro Might be gone. Batman is gone. Batman And Robin: The Chiller is gone. basically they might as well close the entire park. there are more deaths based on idiot drivers leaving great adventure every year than from the G forces. I love Coasters... I have been on every coaster in great adventure atleast 10 times each (except nitro its too new) and its a shame that we NJ asshats have to make laws about this... but hey it was a good run...
Smithers, hand me the ice cream scoop.
I personally will sleep better knowing that the trial lawyers association has the statutes to sue theme parks in NJ. Can I have a hot McDonald's coffee between my knees before the roller coaster leaves the station?
Actually, i think the point was quite valid.
This was pretty much what i thought when I read the comments of the "expert".
Bot Assisted Blogging
Well, it depends a LOT on the nature of the force. Plopping into a chair is a force that the body is pretty well equipped to handle. Car accidents (suddent deceleration) can toss about very heavy G loads - 25 G's isn't unusual. A lot of auto safety now is figuring out how to mitigate those forces (airbags soften the forces relative to the dashboard) and how to redirect them into a more survivable form (why small children ride backward - we can take more G's from our back than our front)
5-6 Gs in the manner that rollercoasters deliver are pretty high (forces that an unsupported head will need to resist against). Sustained for even a few seconds and some people will pass out, and most people will be sore, and few will suffer significant problems due to pre-existing conditions. A CART race was postponed last year when drivers complained of dizziness and difficulty breathing with G forces around 5, though it was for fairly sustained periods.
I think the problem boils down to more people riding coasters, more high G coasters, and more people that aren't in sufficient shape to handle such forces. The number of injuries and deaths aren't high, but for an activity that is supposed to be entertainment, I suspect our tolerance for casualties is pretty low.
From the article:
G-force is the pressure put on the body when it is suddenly accelerated from a motionless position, resulting in a person's body being pushed back into their seat.
What the author just described here is half nonsense and half the wrong thing. Acceleration from any "position", motionless or not results in a force being applied to bodies going along for a ride. Secondly, the suddenness, or rate of change of acceleration, is jerk, not acceleration. G-forces are acceleration, not jerk.
That said, I personally think the regulation of the g-forces isn't really going to help much. Whenever I ride a rollercoaster, the sudden acceleration making my head knock into the supports is definitely the least fun part to me, and my guess is that's what causes the alleged brain injury, not sustained g-forces.
...now we have GFRM!!
God damn you RIAA!!! (Rollercoaster Industry Association of America)
SCO (noun.)- A Slimy Corporate Ogre. Often seeks free money.
How about known risk. I know when I go onto a roller coaster that despite all the past history, anything going that fast could in some way cause me injury. If you avoid everything just because of a possible risk, then life would really suck. Better to make the public aware than impose somewhat random or uninformed limitations.
If you know people who have died in auto accidents, does that mean you shouldn't drive?
Cars can cause accidents, TV can cause seizures. How many people were the 42 out of? If it's 42/100000000 that's lower than most things. I'd almost guarantee that there are a number of things you do every day that risk your life more than jumping in a roller coaster (despite the feeling that you're going to die every time).
Life is full of personal risks. We should be informed of the risks, and make our our decisions. Thus is the only way that we can lead a life of freedom - phorm
This just seems like another example of the legislative reflex present in so many of our elected officials today. This law affects absolutely no existing coaster, so even if they had instituted this law prior to the deaths that triggered it, it couldn't have possibly prevented them. Besides, when it comes to safety on a roller coaster, I'd rather trust a team of engineers who design and build roller coasters for a living than some idiot career politician.
;-)
I can't see any purpose or necessity for this law except to reinforce the fact that "Big Brother Knows Best". This attitude seems practically pervasive with the American left (note the Democratic congressman championing these laws) and has unfortunately become more and more the standard attitude in the right.
Vote Libertarian, preserve your right to ride any damn coaster you see fit!
Easily less than one. Does it feel like the force on your body is being doubled when you take off?
The prevailing attitude from the 30 odd replies I've read so far, is something like this: They are sil;ly and stupid bureaucrats who are limiting our enjoyment in something totally harmeless.
My reply to this is, a 5.6 G turn will produce the same sensation as a 4.6 G turn. So the fun is still exactly the same. Besides, for those who have a hard time thinking beyond their own noses, G forces apply to machinery as well as to humans. Lower Gs results in less stress on the machinery, and thus becomes less likely to malfunction. Also, designing for less Gs reduces the cost of construction, which, theoretically, means more roller-coasters.
This is a personal choice--it doesn't endanger anybody else. I think ride operators should be required to label and state clearly what is known about the dangers, but the state shouldn't prohibit such operations--people should be free to hurt or kill themselves in whatever way they like. But, then, I think the same about both recreational and medical drugs.
Oh, _roller_ coasters! For a second there I thought the government was regulating G-forces on _coasters_, y'know, the thing you put your coffee cups on. (AOL would be in trouble)
--Tina
There's a simple app that can help you figure out G forces. It's here.
Now, I choose to ride on a roller coaster that goes 5.6G, causing more stress for me and the machine I am on.
I choose to accept the increased risk that this entails.
I will enjoy the difference that exists between taking a corner at 4.6G and 5.6G.
Please feel free to make the safer choice. Thank you once again for your insight and concern. Now, thank you for letting me live my life the way I choose.
I choose also, not to sue - with all rights, comes some responsibility.
---- *dog sitting next to a computer, with his beady eyes shifting left to right*
Kimberly and Jessica Bailey of Pomona, N.Y., died after their roller coaster car slipped on a 35-foot incline that started the ride. The car plummeted backward and rounded a 90-degree turn, ejecting both. They were thrown against a steel support structure.
So, the two deaths where from an accidental derailing. How will limiting the G forces of the ride when it's working (NOT broken) fix this? A better law would have something to do with safety and equipment checks. Or better yet, amend the law of gravity and outlaw inertia. Politicians can do anything you know.
This is the same state that doesn't allow you to pump your own gasoline (all the stations are full-service- only) and doesn't allow anyone to get a driver's license until they're 17.
The legislators haven't been shy about making sure that people are adequately protected from things they don't need protection from.
It's a good thing ChrisD believes everything he reads... and is incapable of completing a sentance without plagarizing the original article.
This sucks.
Generally, the pilot can sustain far less G-force than the aircraft.
Well, get a fucking waldo then. Who needs capillaries when you've got hydralics?
Rain on the scarecrow!
NVIDIA's gonna be pissed. So are all the folks who like to play Quake at the amusment park. No more war coastering either. NJ sucks.
Someone hates these cans.
Can someone please explain how you reach 10 G's just plopping into a chair?
We can restrict the biological force of evolution, like we can restrict the G's a roller coaster can pull...
The question is, should we?
---- *dog sitting next to a computer, with his beady eyes shifting left to right*
although this guy doesnt seem to mind all those G forces.
Wonder if he had to buy a ticket every day.
This is also despite the lack of scientific evidence linking G forces to brain injury...
Wait a minute, are you telling me that all those people out there that continue to pay $40/day for park admission, $4/slice of pizza, $3/drink, and then are willing to spend 2-3 hours waiting in line for a 40 second ride... have not suffered some kind of brain damage?
By the way, 5.6 G's is pretty damned high anyway, isn't it? I dunno whether I'd particularly like to ride a coaster much above that for any length of time. I'd hasten to add I wouldn't want to stop consenting adults doing so if they knew what they were in for, though.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
If you're taking off, and experiencing less than one G, then you better start praying!
Way less than one G. In order to have 1G or greater on takeoff you would need to have a Thrust-to-Weight ratio of greater than one. Believe me, no commercial aircraft have anywhere close to that. If I recall correctly, most are closer to .3-1 or so which translates to, at best, a .3G increase during the takeoff run.
Will
I often wonder how many G's are inflicted on my chair at work after eating a Taco Bell lunch.
It must be terrible.
If I bounce on it hard enough,when I sit down, sometimes I can re-live the initial experiece.
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
As far as I know, very few if any modern rollercoasters push anything like 5G for over a second. Many can push that many positive vertical Gs for a split second. Over 3Gs side-to-side is rare, and over 2 negative vertical Gs, also rare or nonexistent to my knowledge.
Lacking existing laws to protect us from such awful dangers, why are so many rollercoasters designed to deliver wimpy 2-4G forces?
Could it be because high G forces are NO FUN FOR RIDERS?
Personally, I wish they had made a law forbidding the damn things from snapping my neck side to side with 3-4G lateral transitions. 2Gs right to 2Gs left, for instance, is far more painful than 6 positive vertical Gs.
But we really need no such laws. Most really painful coasters were designed without the aid of modern computer simulations. Nowadays, coaster designers have a pretty good idea what every section of a ride will feel like before it's built.
Good coasters rely on surprise, misdirection, and optical illusion more than high G forces.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
They have a collection of classic stupid laws like this US law: While it is legal for theaters to show movies on a Sunday, it is only legal so long as (1) they have a permit from either the city or the county and (2) at least once monthly they show a religious or educational film.
lounge around on the blue couch
NJ gave itself the right to regulate rides after an accident where two were killed from a malfunction, not excessive Gs.
I hate this kind of misdirected legislation. It's like the new airline baggage screening requirements (helllooo! The 9/11 hijackers did not have any dangerous checked baggage!). Or gun control laws being passed in reaction to violence committed with illegally-possessed guns. (they were already illegal, see?)
I don't know if this is the case overseas, but in roller coaster rides in .au there is a sign that says what might happen if you go on this ride, ie don't go on it if you have a heart condition etc More so, it isn't like you don't know what your going on, the freakin coaster is right in front of you and you can see ppl screaming on it. I think what will come out of this is a longer warning sign before you go on the ride. The same thing as warning packets on cigarettes and big macs if they get there way.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
Their reasoning to why they can "restrict" you from hurting or killing yourself is because if you do succeed then you will become a community burden.
IE, if you go on the newest roller-coaster at "King Death Park" named "Limb-Torrent" and you loose your arm then as a US citizen you'll be driven to the nearest hospital, airlifted to another, looked at, probed, pinched, and fixed. Now, for some reason medical prices are inflated to such a rate that even if you have insurance it won't be enough to cover this cost. $1500 bucks for a five mile ride in the back of an ambulance? $10k for a doctor to tell you you've lost a limb. $30k for another to actual do something about it. $5k a nurse, he needs four. One hundred million billion kajillion dollars for Doctor Evil to not blow up the earth and so on. So the tax payer eats the cost of you loosing a limb.
I do not agree with this at all but I do see the logic.
No current roller coaster in the state of New Jersey comes close to a prolonged force of 5.6+ Gs. Or in any other state, either.
The law also puts some limits on lateral motion, which is not mentioned in the article. Again, nothing that would impact any currently existing coasters.
The trend in roller coasters is taller, faster, steeper, and tighter - which is good but only to a point. Sitting in the front of Nitro (at Six Flags Great Adventure in NJ) will always black out my vision in the large corkscrew. I haven't yet found a person who didn't feel extremely light-headed after taking that turn in a front seat. And that turn still isn't close to 5.6 Gs.
As for the lateral motion restriction, I applaud that. I know people who have bruised the sides of their heads on their harnesses. (The suspended Batman ride is pretty bad in that regard.) If rides keep progressing towards the extreme, some poor guy with weak neck muscles is gonna lose consciousness or even have his skull cracked. Safety limits are a good thing.
Anyway, this whole "its my body let me abuse it" uprising is pointless. The limits set by this law do not affect your ability to black out or sprain your neck. However, they just might save your life in 5 years when someone tries to build a coaster thats bigger and badder than it ought to be.
There is 1G of force doing nothing. 1G is normal. And I'll tell you that I can pull over 1G in almost any airplane w/o regards to thrust to weight ratios...
The two people killed on the ride were at Gillian's wonderland pier in ocean city, NJ. I worked about 5 blocks down from that at another amusement park called Castaway Cove last summer. Please, for the love of god, do not attend any of these places. Not only do they price gouge you with the ticket sales, but they are the most unsafe machinery I have ever seen. There were quite a fre times that i was scared that the machinery would just snap in half. There was a near-fatal incident while I was there, where a car shot up approx. 50 f eet as the person was stepping out of it. luckily, she dove back into the car and wasn't injured. ok, sorry for ranting
Also note that due to heavy lobbying by Disney, official injury reporting is rather weak nationally and in states where Disney has a presence.
You know, in a well-run corporation, managers are generally specialized. Accounting managers deal with money, managers in the technical departments deal with things that are technical, etc.
:)
This scares me about the way democracy works. You have managers (congressmen, senators, judges, legislators, etc..) that decide what goes on in this country, and none of the, are qualified to make every single one of those decisions. How many legistators do you think really understand how G-forces relate to the risks of rollarcoasters?
Worse, the democratic managers of this country have horrible employers: you and I, the people who hire and fire them by voting. And most of the people in this country (that vote anyway) don't understand most of the issues the managers have to deal with.
So it sets up a perfect scenario for the politicians to act out of fear of being disliked, or even voted out of office for lack of activity. Case in point, this rollarcoaster issue: a few people died, so voters start looking at the lawmakers to act. The lawmakers are forced to do something, anything, even if what they do is wrong. If they didn't, the people would get angry and possibly vote for someone else come next election.
Not that I have a better solution, at least not at 2am on a monday morning
_______
2B1ASK1
My mother doesn't let me do more than 4.8 G's for half a second.
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
I rode the said roller coaster many times, though certainly not recently. The last time I rode it must have been 1993 or so, and that ride remains one of the most horrific and memorable events in my memory.
While going up the incline, I heard several faint but audible metal pinging sounds; these were the sounds of metal ejecting from the machine. Once the roller coaster reached the peak I discovered something awful: the back right corner was not secure! During the whole ride the back bucked and jittered unnaturally, and I honestly thought the thing would come off. Afterward, I told everyone I could about my experience, though no one wants to listen to a hyperactive thirteen year old.
Though I love to be right, having a mother and her child die to prove it wasn't what I had in mind...though I did say for years the thing would kill people.
G-Forces my ass; that roller coaster is the same generic thing you see at every carnival. The owners of the park, the Gillian family, have been pocketing inspectors for years. The entire place reeks of disrepair and I refuse to set foot in it. I'm STILL waiting for the litigation against their greedy asses to surface, but they still drive all over town with their fancy cars and personalized parking places.
The state is the first in the nation to set rules regulating the gravitational pull, or G-force, of rides.
Sorry, but does anyone else think that it isn't unreasonable for the state to require roller coaster rides to be less than 5.6 times the mass of the Earth!?
- Smiley =)
"Never put off for tomorrow what can be avoided altogether"
Military pilots have to pass a strict physical examination and graduate from a training program that includes testing in a G force simulator and training in how to resist G forces. They also have airplanes and equipment that are scientifically designed to deal with high G forces.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
brought to you by the state that made it illegal for diners to serve eggs sunny side up.
and no i'm not even joking (even though the law was repealed 2 days later).
What I really love about Slashdot is how the writers just give us all the facts and let us make our own decisions about the issues.
One brain-injury specialist interviewed said that you can exert 10 Gs just plopping into a chair, saying the state was "a little misguided"
Woah Woah... into a chair? Thats crazy!! i've got the most comfy overstuffed lounge chair and I can tell ya the "specialist" has it all wrong.. its getting out of the chair!!! that exerts gforce!! i probably push against 100g's to get out of oh so comfy chair!!
Go limp!
First Greece, now New Jersey...
Well, at least you can still game with ATI video cards in New Jersey!
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
It's called Jerk. The rate of accelleration with respect to time.
I don't like the idea of Jerky roller coasters.
They make me feel as if I am getting punched.
I think I could stand higher Gs when the acceleration in longer.
I think the point is: Consider more variables!
I could probably find a way to kill somebody with a 5 G roller coaster, and have the same person live through a 10G roller coaster (though... I'd don't know for sure)
If I were subject to uniformed acceleration, it would be as if I were heavier... (I was going to say had a heavy body suite... but I remembered that the blood has inertia, and would like to stay where it is more than my bones witch are rigid so the blood could FLOW to the head or feet...)
Please use [ informative / summarizing ] SUBJECT LINES
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You neglect to mention that they "joked" about commiting an act of mass destruction.
And you apparently neglected to read any of the news articles on this subject in the last three or four days.
The students claim that the "bring it down" remark referred to a car that they were considering "bringing down" to florida from a northern state. They claim that either the waitress was mistaken or lied about the "september 13" comment she said she overheard. They claim that the conversation was completely normal and did not touch on terrorism, september 11, or september 13. There is absolutely no reason to believe they were joking about anything.
I think the waitress just misheard stuff. However, I do not blame the waitress either. I think she did the correct thing, given the circumstances. I do not blame the police, either, though it seems they overreacted a bit. They were just doing their jobs, in investigating and clearing a possible threat.
I blame the media outlets for gross negligence. How they have handled this has been really, really stupid.
I am perplexed and disappointed at the number of media outlets who printed or said outright that the medical students admitted to "joking" about september 11. It appears, at the moment, that that particular rumor is baseless, and APPEARS to originate (I am not 100% sure about this bit) from early reports stating that the waitress' daughter told reporters that "maybe [the students] were making a joke", which were then accidentally rereported by other news outlets as saying flat-out the students had joked about september 11. You will notice that no news outlets in the latter half of the weekend have said anything at all about "joking".
An extra note, becuase an AC asked for elaboration on cribcage's "being expelled" comment: The students have been asked, at least temporary, to leave their internships at the hospital they are studying at because the hospital had been recieving threats from people who didn't quite grasp everything the news told them (Can't find link at this moment, sorry, but there was an article on CNN.com this morning which now seems to be gone.) The hospital said they would consider allowing the students back in time, or if local law enforcement would agree to assist in providing extra protection from "patriotic" nutjobs.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
There is little data tracking brain injuries and rides, which makes it difficult to know if injuries may have been caused by something other than the rides or if a person may have unknowingly had a pre-existing medical condition, some experts say.
Other than 'previously', what other words need the prefix 'pre'? An existing medical condition says the exact same thing as pre-existing. Can anyone think back to a time when 'pre' wasn't abused all over the place? Maybe it started with pre-heating ovens? Have previews always been called that? Have trailers ever been at the end of movie, else why are they called that?
Pardon me for asking, but isn't that a bit unhygienic?
(I can't even begin to consider the agony of requiring 10Gs!)
Simon
This is unfortunately wasted effort. The lawyers keep the g-forces in check. What roller coaster manufacturer will make a coaster that will kill people? It's obviously in their best interest to do plenty of research and testing on their rides to make sure people don't get harmed. The odds are also statistically insignificant -- one in 100 million riders dies? Please. I wish lawmakers would spend their time on more pressing issues, such as allocating funding to help with the thousands of people who die every year from smoking, car wrecks, and terminal illnesses.
This kind of legislation just makes me sick. The entertainment industry will take care of itself -- noone will ride a ride that is known to hurt people!
Sad, truly, truly sad.
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
g-force is a stupid buzzword for Joe Mainstream. We are nerds, we all took Physics 101. For us, GeForce is a line of graphic accelerators.
Call them gravitational force (might be considered stupid -NJ to limit earth's gravitation ? Uh ?- as they are generally vertical, but Einstein doesn't make a distinction.) or call them acceleration, or call them whatever you actually meant, but stop thinking you're talking to three years olds.
Its a huge difference as test pilots from the 1950's and 1960's can and will tell you. One test pilot strapped himself to a rocket sled which went to mach 2 I belive and then stopped it in a pool of water in about 40 feet of braking. He subjected hims self to something like negative 120 G's. He got up and then actually did it again!
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Any anti-government fiend will tell you that it's just "'the Man's' way of limiting your options for having a good time" (a-la Marijuana being illegal and alcohol regulations). But this isn't one of those posts, and I'm not one of those fiends.
Instead, I look at it this way. First of all, G-Forces are nowhere near the problem. Most rollercoaster accidents happen for one of a select few reasons:
1. Safety Devices, like seat belts, lap rails or shoulder harnesses, fail. Only after they fail do G-Forces become a remote issue, as they could easily throw the rider from the car. More commonly, the force of 1G becomes more dangerous in this case, as it's the main one pulling you to the center of the Earth (ie falling out while inverted).
2. Mechanical Failure. Either the car or track could be to blame here. This includes brakes as well. But then again, coasters are often designed nowadays with a few redundant systems, which all but eliminate (accidents do happen) these concerns.
3. Human stupidity. This covers both rider and operator. Failure to heed warning signs (heart condition, pregnancy, etc.) on the rider's part contribute a great deal. Let's face it. Some people are just plain stupid. Operator failure sometimes contributes to injuries and deaths, be it lack of training on operations or just plain idiocy.
The only possible way G-Forces could kill is if number 3 happens, and someone who is stroke (etc.) prone, has extremely weak nerves, or doesn't use safety devices properly gets on.
John Glenn returning to space proved that even older folks can handle G-Forces in excess of 5 Gs. Age limits are enough to prevent small children, still growing and pretty much fragile, from being exposed to high Gs. And most people are intelligent enough to know that if they have a pre-existing condition, getting on might not be such a good idea. Safety and mechanical failures are either pure chance or lack of proper coaster upkeep.
So where's the problem, New Jersey? It's not science, studies and statistics. It's just plain common sense.
Oh, wait. What am I doing talking about New Jersey and Common Sense in the first place? We all know how toxic the place is. The people are good and hard working, but their government severely lacks any stroke to pull this kind of stunt...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
Here's a Summary Table of Key Citations. Congressman Markey's main page on the subject is also worth reading.
As for the millions who escape unscathed, I don't think that has ever been a valid argument against safety legislation. The majority of people who use power tools without eye protection will not lose an eye; does that mean OSHA should stop requiring protective eyewear?
In other news, Newark International Airport was shut down, because planes create excessive G-Force pressure on take-off. And accelerating your car too quickly? That's a no-no too.
Accelerating at 5.6gs in a car? Yeah, I can see that. If you drove it into a wall.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Well, in the USA, you need to be 18 to make such a decision on your own. So I suppose if you wanted to make a private park only for people 18 years old and up, you could do so practically without restrictions.
Batman: R
Viper: R
Revolution: PG
DeathCoaster! NC17
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Besides, 5.6G is a lot even for just the coaster. If the coaster itself weighs a ton, it would mean the rail would have to be built to deal with 5.6 ton, plus whatever extra comes from vibration, and finally, better double that, just to be on the safe side. This requires extensive testing, all the time... Modern fighter planes spend more time on the ground than in the air for exactly that reason.
If you want more than 5.6G, you should bring your medical attest, sign the waiver, etc... It's just not something you want to send people with unknown physical condition into. And it's not just the cardiac problems. There are people with e.g. weak neck-muscles, skeletal problems, etc. This could probably be enough to trigger a whiplash, or anything else, if you are not physically fit.
Hell, better build the coaster so that they're fun to ride, instead of simply dangerous. The feeling of free fall, the horror of feeling like you're almost going to run into that bar over your head, jerky motion like on a wood-coaster, etc... there are a lot of things you can do without putting people into danger, that will be just as exciting.
And sinking into a chair has nothing to do with it. That is impulse, not sustained force. And while impulse is dangerous too, it's not like you can just compare their numbers without thinking. (While I can survive under water for two minutes, I can probably not survive two days on top of mount everest (even though there are a lot more oxygen at the top of mount everest).)
Give me a break. You neglect to mention that they "joked" about commiting an act of mass destruction.
You neglect to mention that they were alleged to have joked about commiting acts of destruction. There is a pretty big diffrence.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If I get sick, you could say my illness is existing. It exists...hence I am sick. If I were sick prior to getting insurance plan X, it is pre-existing. Pre- in this case referring to the time period before my current insurance coverage. Yes, there's a lot of redundancy in the use of that...er..prefix, but in this case it makes an important distinction. If an insurance company said "we do not cover any existing medical conditions" they would be pretty worthless.
:)
Just being pedantic back at you.
(But I have no idea about the trailer thing....dumb movie lingo)
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
Who knows, could rollercosters be contributing to the degradation of cognitive capability in the world?
Hahaha.
Actualy that's a good point. Someone mod him up.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I've been riding roller coasters all my life and I never had any problem with ... wait was I just talking about ...
Bugger the "Weapons of Mass Destruction". It's the "Rollercoasters of Mass Destruction" you have to be careful about.
Can someone let the president know about this threat to humanity?
Ladies, form queue here -->
I could probably find a way to kill somebody with a 5 G roller coaster, and have the same person live through a 10G roller coaster Sure.. just have the 5G rollercoaster go into a wall.
he sure does.
I think what people are mixing up is that 5.6 G's vertically like in military aircraft is fine. The problem is that roller coasters exert sideways G's and that is what a human body cannot cope with. That is a proven fact. (I saw it on the science channel). And lets please remember a military aircraft pilot is not a person on a roller coaster. A pilot is in good shape, healty. Whereas people on roller coasters tend to not be in the same shape.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Can you show me evidence, that meets the criterion of the doctrine of strong inference, that a 5.6G maximum is consistent with safety for roller coasters? I can sure as hell provide hundreds of thousands (probably tens of millions) of examples of poeple that have rode on any given coaster and suffered no ill effects.
Elementary physics will tell you that the maximum friction forces that can apply to a body on a flat surface can't be higher than the gravity force applied to that body. Thus horizontal accelerations in a car (forward/bacward/lateral) can never be higher than 1G as long as the car doesn't hit something.
Now because tyre rubber and asphalt are not ideal materials (one is rugged, the other is sticky) Formula 1 and CART cars can achieve accelerations marginally higher than 1G, namely 1.xx
So could you point me to where you saw those 5Gs in a CART being mentioned? My suspicion is that the vibration and the slight yumps (resulting in almost 0G) on the track were more likely the culprit of the dizzyness. Or maybe it was 1.5G?
I think he was refering to a race on a inclined oval track.
From what I remember, the concern was both for the drivers and that the cars wouldn't fly off the track because of the high speed.
Now if I actually was paying attention, I woulda noticed that the gas price statistics do not include taxes.
:-)
However, my argument doesn't change.
And here you can see a state by state gas average with taxes included. The effect is smaller, but still there.
Finally, I forgot to add, one of the other advantages to NJ full service is that we can watch people from there fumble over filling their cars up when they leave NJ.
duh, forgot about you 'muricans, thought CART courses were like formula 1. ok on a banked surface you can get to higher Gs indeed, so nevermind.
....just ride a rollercoaster to feel what it's like, according to the AHA. (choose the rollercaster link mid-way down page)
I have seen several:
Hey stop NARCing my ride man...
and several more:
What a watse of my Legislators time...
posts, but this is, in fact, great legislature.
You see the thing of it is, is that whoever this bonehead is, he/she hasn't done any real harm. Go ahead regulate the gs in my rollercoaster, Hell, regurgitate them for all I care. This truly does not matter. The Government (aka The Man) has done YOU no harm, this time.
For the Legislator well this is a huge plus. Most of the State could care less what they've done and as such will not hold them accountable but... overprotective, SUV on the sidewalk at 50 miles an hour chatting on her cell phone, Soccer Mom thinks you're fucking Joan Of Arc saving her little ones from the brain damage she should be doling out with sugary treats, 50 inch TVs hooked to PS2s and the incessant drone of her voice warning them against the evils of the world. You've justified her existence, you've made a positive impact on her life, you have given a legal voice to her constant nagging... You da man!
And so we're all happier. Truly nothing has been accomplished and somebody somewhere is happy. Everyone wins.
This
This is a common misconception, it is completely untrue however. *Road* tyres can have a coefficient of friction of well over 1 (under realistic cornering loads tyre distortion will reduce this to under 1). Race slicks can have a coefficient of friction of 2 or more, drag slicks even higher.
In the case of a CART race, start with race slicks, add aerodynamic downforce, then add downforce from banked corners and you get a *lot* of grip.
Okay, as a coaster enthusiast, here is my take on this.
1. They are regulating something that has a lower per capita injury/fatality rate than garden hoses, bowling, driving, walking up stairs, and really just about anything.
2. Given [1] this is obviously 'look good' legislation that, as usual, totally fails to see the cause of injuries.
3. By far the biggest cause of injuries is rider error. You know, people who don't "remain seated with your hands inside the car at all times". The next biggest cause (roughly 15%) is operator error. These type of accidents usually result because the operator did something stupid (IE was walking under the track while the coaster was running.) The other major cause of accidents (almost 5%) are caused by those with preexisting conditions (asthma, heart trouble, back trouble, etc). Again, essentially rider error, as the signs warn quite clearly that those with preexisting medical conditions should not ride.
4. Even assuming g forces are a danger (I disagree, but just for the sake of argument...), NJ is looking at it in the wrong way. Based on a large body of anecdotal evidence (I've ridden 153 coasters at 52 diffirent parks, total # of rides probably close to 5000), the only thing that ever causes discomfort are those hideous over the sholder restraints (Sometimes referred to as 'horsecollars'. These restraints let your HEAD do all the stopping under any sort of lateral acceleration. Ever since Karl Bacon of Arrow Dynamics came up with the idea in the early '70's, they have been causing headaches everywhere they are installed. Luckily, some companies are seeing the light. Schwarzkopf GMBH (one of the dominant builders of early looping rides) always used simple lapbars, and those ride like a dream. Premier Rides, maker of magnetically launched rides, has recently retrofitted almost all their rides with lapbars. Those have now gone from a boxing simulator to being world class rides.
TODO: Something witty here...
The race was at Texas Motor Speedway, a 1.5 mile high-banked (24') oval track. During practice, the drivers were experiencing lateral G-forces approaching 6G in the turns, and several complained about various physiological effects (tunnel vision, vertigo, dizzyness, etc.) after just a handful of laps. Fearing that the extreme G-forces would lead to injuries and cause mayhem on the track over the course of the race, CART cancelled the event.
On a side note, the IRL (Indy Racing League) runs at Texas and its sister track, Atlanta, also a 1.5 mile high-banked oval. The IRL cars are a little slower than the CART vehicles, however, and don't generate the 5+ G that the CART drivers were experiencing. The stock cars (NASCAR) which run at the same tracks, of course, don't generate nearly the same forces, since they are far slower in the turns than the lightweight open-wheel cars.
DennyK
Though I went for a ride at the red dragon (Dueling Dragons at Universal Orlando, anyone?) and my back felt like crap afterwards for about two weeks (I'm fine now, thanks). Still, NJ should check out the cause of the malfunction, not just outlaw the first thing that comes to mind...
No, seriously, I just come here for the articles.
Stating lack of evidence is far diffrent than stating "because science hasn't disproved this, it is obviously 100% true".
Neither side has an argument at the present time, so the fact there is a law is far worse than anything chrisd could have said.
This from a state that wont even let you pump your own fucking gas. Hardly surprising. What is it with NJ? Is it all the toxic waste screwing with their brains?
siri
Please do some more research...a F-16 can perform a flat turn. This is where the aircraft does not bank at all before turning left or right. Very useful in a dog-fight as it does not announce your intentions beforehand. Military aircraft do not perform simple high G climbs. They also perfom extremely high G turns etc. They make roller coasters seem like nothing after you fly in one.
Otherwise known as the Philip Morris argument.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
On G-Forces, and how much the human body can safely endure.
"One brain-injury specialist interviewed said that ... the state was "a little misguided."
Let me get this straight: you're saying that a bunch of congressmen are making laws regulating something they didn't really understand? That's absurd!
Stop them before the try to regulate computers or the internet!....oh, wait....
-Styopa
That is why pilots where special suits to force the blood back into their head.
I live in NJ. A few months ago I was getting gas and got out of my car to buy a soda. I saw a man frustrated by how long it was taking the attendent to come over begin to pump his own gas. He looked over at the station attendent with a smug look as if to say, "Yeah I'm pumping my own gas what are you going to do about it?"
Then I saw the gas pump fall to the ground, but not before a quick shot of gas was projected on to his car. It was a great moment.
I agree about the the driving age restrictions. They are ridiculous. Currently you have to be 17 and even then you can't drive later than midnight or with more than one non-family member in the car younger than 21. There is always talk of moving the age from 17 to 18. The same people who push the driving age up are the same ones who complain about kids hanging out in parking lots. Sure young drivers get into a lot of accidents, but there are other ways of solving that problem.
OddManIn: A Game of guns and game theory.
Where exactly did you get this info from?
I presume your refering to yaw, which at high speeds is pretty hard to achieve.
Pretty much the only time you'll see an F16 'flat turning' as you refer to it is in a flat spin, or at very low speeds (on landing / take off for example).
High yaw wouldn't be useful in a dogfight. The seeker heads on most missiles (amraam, aim9) extend out enough to encompass a couple degress of yaw, the only time you'd need to snap the nose around would be in a turning fight, in which case you'd be banked hard. This means you'd be snapping on a vertical axis, which means it's the angle of attack (alpha) which increases.
In which case you're problably thinking of an aircraft such as the su27 flanker (eg: its manouver calle the cobra).
And obviously that makes your 'They also perfom extremely high G turns etc' comment wrong as well. How does a Jet turn? It banks then pulls, it doesn't yaw.
This should make for an interesting recliner ritual.
Come home, grab a beer, and annouce "Watch out! I'm coming in for re-entry!"
In response to drag racing, if you figure a car is going about 300 miles an hour after 4.5 seconds and assume constant acceleration (which I'm sure isn't true) you get about 3 G's or 30 m/(s^2)
Also, it seems like everyone is blowing this out of proportion considering they say that even the rollercoaster that currently exposes users to the highest acceleration has less than a 5.6 G maximum acceleration.
Looks like Donald Trump can kiss that Atlantic City Spaceport goodbye....
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
a ha... a ha... I'm so funny.
But seriously folks. Where's my NV30. I'm going to cry myself to sleep.
That sucks big time, besides as that scientist states 10Gs momentarily for one second, of course if it's slowly raised to there i think, but 5.6Gs, thats low... it should atleast be 8Gs, probably this law won't endure for long, or world is going to hell, soon we all live in police states allowed only to eat&drink, sleep, work, shower and ofcourse change clothes, thats all what ordinary people can do...
heh not exactly, but they cannot limit human's every action, people will rise against them, thats provocating rebels if too stupid laws are made...
Besides, many say that was are made to be broke, tho they usually sit in jail or are waiting for court...
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
You've gotta do it yourself.
Why do we want to pump our own gas?
Maybe because the people currently staffing NJ gas stations are barely capable of pumping gas?
Maybe because they can barely understand "Fill it up regular" and 50% of them *cannot* understand "Don't top it off."
Yes, I don't know how many times I have asked, "Don't top it off" and was either ignored or not understand. I've even yelled, "Stop!!!" when they did top it off. Did they stop? Nope.
Gas stations also used to be a place where you could ask for directions. Since they have to hire 4 minimum-wage guys that can barely understand English rather than 1 cash register operator who can at least understand some, the current crop of gas station attendants couldn't tell you how to find a street EVEN IF IT IS THE STREET THE STATION IS ON! I saw an article about just such an incident a few weeks ago - Someone was heading to an appointment, asked the attendants for directions, and they had no clue. The guy called his destination from a payphone, guess what their instructions were?
"Look behind you..."
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Jeeze people, it's like every single law enacted somehow infringes on your "rights". Be a little bit reasonable - learn to differentiate the really important, infringing laws from those that *do* actually make some sense. There's no "right" to design a roller coaster that does more than 5G's - there are all sorts of laws regarding what can and can't be built in this country and without them we'd have all sorts of collapsing buildings and roller coasters running off the tracks (as we used to have many years ago).
Any coaster designer will tell you that they don't want to exceed 5 G's anyway. There's a limit to what the average human body can take for longer than a second - astronauts and air force pilots don't count, as it's possible to train the body to accept more and that's exactly what they do. Average humans, though, can't take 5 G's for more than a few moments - it's not just a matter of brain injury, it's a matter of nausea, headaches, and other unpleasant things.
I rode on Batman and Robin: The Chiller at Great Adventure for the first time this summer - that's the only coaster I know that exceeds 5G's (no, none of the other coasters at Great Adventure do, to whoever brought that up). I thought I was going to die afterwards. My brain felt like it was stuck in my stomach for about an hour afterwards - it very nearly ruined my day. I'm not normally squeamish on coasters either - we rode every single other coaster at GA that day (Medusa three times) and had no other problems.
Some people have a higher threshold than I do I'm sure, but 5G's is pretty much the accepted limit among coaster designers so I don't see the problem here. It's not as if you're not going to enjoy the ride if it's less than that - chances are you'll enjoy it more (and you all have been - very, very few coasters in the world exceed 5G's as it is).
Please do some more research
Yes, please do...
a F-16 can perform a flat turn. This is where the aircraft does not bank at all before turning left or right.
No, it cannot. The vectored thrust F-22 CAN do somewhat of a flat turn. The engine nozzles turn left or right, causing the nose to move the other direction. A whole lot of other things are going on as well, but that's the basics.
They make roller coasters seem like nothing after you fly in one.
So, from your incisive comment, we can assume you've never flown in one? I have, once. Yes, it is the world's ultimate rollercoaster. And, G-suit or no, I started to blackout at one point.
In my informed opinion, this act will only AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA oh my god that was where was I ... As I was saying, the legislature failed to take into consideration the Tort Reform Act of AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Man! I'll bet you actually consider yourself an educated person, but your ignorance shines like a beacon in the night.
Well, there's ignorance, and then there's just plain stupidity. In the former case, you lack proper knowledge. In the latter, you cannot utilize said knowledge. I say this for your edification. I was trying to say that everything doesn't have to be seen as a physics problem because it is obvious that it DOES matter.Now, I'll just shut you up with a physics problem. Explain how you can attain these high speeds without experiencing G-Force. You can't? You say that people have to accelerate to those speeds? Shit, man, I thought they just drove their cars off of the highway right into the running roller coaster!
I'm not a poor nitpicker. You're probably just too unintelligent to tell when you're wrong. Typical.
My wife's from Chicago, and I'm a Jersey boy. She created a song about New Jersey, which starts with the line: Everything fun in Jersey, is, illegal.....
You need to study roller coaster design a little more. Many roller coasters are designed to look and feel like they are going to fall apart at any moment. I've ridden those that are, and those that are not. I avoid the roller coasters that feel soild becuase they are no fun. (In general the soild roller coasters ahve to mkae up for the lack of fun by going upside down, while the "weak" ones are fun with much tamer rides)
Engineers are tricky, those roller coasters are still plenty safe, and inspectors are not often bought. For that matter the operators know that they need to appear to be running a minimal maintance operation, but if that actucally running minimal maintance is risking death, and they cannot afford those lawsuits. (Okay, so the insurance company might force it in some cases, but the result is the same: a raide that feels unsafe while still perfectly safe)
You're talking about a state where you aren't allowed to PUMP YOUR OWN GAS. No such thing as self serve in NJ. Personally I think NJ politicians have a dartboard with a bunch of random to create new legislation.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
NJ gave itself the right to regulate rides after an accident where two were killed from a malfunction, not excessive Gs.
States have always had the right to regulate amusement park rides. Some do it much better than others. For instance, when I was growing up, shady carnivals would come to Maryland, be shut down, and then set up shop in neighboring Pennsylvania. Why? Because Pennsylvania was particularly lax at enforcing safety regulations for such rides. One such carnival had rides that were bolted together with no lockwashers, cotter pins, or other retaining devices -- despite the fact that the bolts were all cross-drilled for cotter pins. Maryland shut them down and off to Pennsylvania they headed.
Why don't we cut the government-is-the-enemy crap? A state saw a trend towards higher and higher coaster G-forces and put regulations into place to protect the citizens -- most of whom are neither doctors nor mechanical engineers and, thus, would be unable to accurately gauge the potential risk themselves.
New Jersey is very good at passing legislation of dubious value. In the early 1990's there was actually a bill proposed which would ban the sale of "runny" eggs in resturants. The Runny Egg law was proposed to protect New Jersey citizens from salmonella.
This legislation was one of the things that became a nail in the political coffin of then-governer Jim Florio who lost the next election to the esteemed Christie Todd-Whitman, who went on to become the head of the EPA.
Hopefully, the stupid roller coaster legislation goes away the same way that the runny egg law did.
In an F1 car the aerodynamics generate so much downforce at high speeds that the car could run upside-down (i.e. it exerts more downforce than the weight of the car... far more). Therefore cornering forces well in excess of 3G are normal in F1, especially through Eau Rouge at Spa in Belgium.
--is not to be confused with user #672982 - Bame Flait
I'm glad a _brain injury_ specialist has such an intimate knowledge of physics too.
I'm glad you told us to "Relax." I was about to crap my pants. We had no idea you were trying to make a joke. Here I was thinking your post reflexed exactly what laws pass in New Jersey.
Well, it is New Jersey we are talking about. His post, unfortunately, was entirely plausible.
I believe the Top Fuel & Funny Car drivers do get close to 5.6G. Considering that Englishtown & Atco (NJ) have popular tracks, this law might have potential side effects. But I suspect that only roller coasters are affected (I haven't read the law, yet).
You can still get the shit scared out of you with less g forces. Last time I checked the old wooden roller coasters still got my heart pumping without breakin my friggin neck like some of the new ones where you strap in tighter than a monkey being shot into space.
Judging from the crowds I saw at Cedar Point OH this year, I'd say it'd would be pretty hard to prove that most folks weren't already brain damaged before getting on any of the rides.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
An average, physically fit male has a resting G tolerance of 5 to 5.5 G's... that means that at this level, they'll have about 50% light loss (lose about 50% of their vision) if they do nothing to mitigate the G's (G-suit or anti-G straining maneuver).
Fighter pilots pull in excess of 5 to 6 G's routinely with no brain damage... the main issues, which have been pointed out by others here, is the potential loss of consciousness due to sustained G's.
Additionally, "a couple seconds" is not enough for GLOC. The brain has a 6-second or so buffer, so there'll be at least that long before GLOC, and that's assuming pretty high G's.
"Right now it's too soon to say whether there should be a panic," said Gregory O'Shanick, medical director of the Arlington, Va.-based Brain Injury Association of America, which is studying rides and injuries. "The jury is still out."
DON'T PANIC!
Duh
You can't take the sky from me...
oh great now we'll hear about secret black market roller coasters in mexico...
but that would probably be more than 10 Gs.
G's are a unit of acceleration
9.81 Meters per second per second. is one G
If you hit a wall... your speed will change very quickly. (acceleration)
It would take a lot of work (I think) to kill somebody with a 5 G coaster (I'm talking out my ass)... maybe something with knife blades as supports (I think that could even work with 1 G)
Note: acceleration is not pressure, witch is in units of force per area. or acceleration times mass divided by area squared
Acceleration is poition per time per time, or velocity per time.
Jerk is acceleration per time.
I think pressure would be an issue, along with jerk, and acceleration. Velocity can become an issue in an open cockpit... and position could become an issue... say if you got the coaster high enough to get to the stratosphere.
I've heard of negative Gs... I would guess that is when you are accelerating downwards relative to your body, so the blood would flow to your head.
Please use [ informative / summarizing ] SUBJECT LINES
Flame me here
Pressure, acceleration, and force are mutually different. The term "G-force" is nonsense.
Limiting the acceleration to 5.6g is not too restrictive. I tried it once and never want to get on a 5g coaster again. Limiting the acceleration is wise, while, of course, acceleration is not the only problem. Personally, e.g., i hate coasters where the acceleration of my head differs much from the acceleration of my feet.
This sig is a true statement, but I cannot prove it.
If I remember correctly, that was more of a sustained WHIP motion, couldnt guess the G's of that ride. How about the spinning ride where the floor falls out?
Relive the BBS Past - One Byte at a Time! www.ssabbs.com
Classis moron legislation, crafted by morons, elected by morons. The populace deserves stupid laws like this; probably worse. At worst, I could see the state requiring the posting of the maximum G for a ride, not regulating it. It is a fine demonstration of the unrestrained, limitless power that government has be granted by the feeble minded masses.
Teaching hospitals are where these people get taken, not HollyWood Plastics Super Deluxe. These teaching hospitals need people who suffer injuries from no helmet motorcycle crashes to learn what to do on real emergencies.
Like when you fall off a ladder and crack your head open, or just slip on the bath tub, due to soap, despite a mat.
Besides, "as an American" you pay taxes to fund these hospitals. Most never get to use that "insurance" but we all have to pay anyway. No insurance company advertises "If your ever hurt, we'll cover EVERY EXPENSE (up to the total premium you've paid to date.) It's absurd.
If you don't like that idiots get to use you taxes for medical care. Stop paying them - vote, become an outlaw, hell assassinate if you've a mind to. But dont support more laws that take away choice.
You need to be 18 to drive a car and watch TV?
Huh?
So, if I design a coaster with a 12G max rating at a duty cycle of 90% I'm cool? Sounds a tad choppy.
SIG me baby, yeah!
Statistically, roller coasters are the safest form of transportation.
I *want* my video card with me, no matter which coaster I ride! :(
Oh, wait...
The real safety issue on these rides is not the design but how well they're maintained.
Kind-of-relevant story:
I once worked as a ride operator at an amusement pier in Seaside Heights, NJ ("Yes, MTV. We'll galdly take your money!")
A kid got shocked on one of the kiddie rides where these little boats go around in a circle. For whatever reason electricity was coarsing through the water the boats rode on.
One of the mechanics told another of the mechanics that the water shocked at least one kid. The second mechanic, in order to verify what the first mechanic said, stuck his hand in the water, shocking himself.
While this may not be indicative of ride mechanics throughout the country, it's a scary thought to think guys like this are insuring the safety of hundreds of thousands of people.
An existing medical condition says the exact same thing as pre-existing.
The word "existing" only implies existence, not historic existence. A view of a movie takes two hours, a preview does not. In addition, 'view' is generally used as a verb, not a noun.
Yes, trailers used to be at the end of the movie, but people stopped watching them.
A heated oven is the same thing as preheated oven, though.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
A relative of mine used to work for their parent company (all owned by someone in Oklahoma City) and when they purchased all the Six Flags parks they cut back extrordinarily on the mechanics and checks on ride safety (to save money).
The last time I went to a Six Flags was in Dallas and someone died on the river rafting ride less than 1 year after the parks were taken over (poor maintenance in my opinion). We proceded to never return (thank god I hate water rides, but the Shock Wave was just as scary due to the wobbling track).
If you go to any Six Flags beware. I like Action Park better than Great Adventure anyway.
(physics types, please excuse my flaky terminology...I should probably use "impulse" and whatnot, but I'm not a physicist)
People are squishy. A strong force for a very short period of time (hitting a chair), doesn't actually have that strong of a force/time ratio -- the "squish" spreads out the impact time. So if the time is quadrupled by the "squish", your brain experiences 2.5 Gs.
If you keep a strong force going for longer, you cannot spread out the force -- your brain is already squished down into the bottom of your skull. There's no way for your body to compensate more, to spread out the impact time. So you "really" experience those 10Gs.
I thought that astronaut training only went up to something like 7Gs sustained, and much above that you could start blacking out? Perhaps I'm wrong...
Anyway, we evolved to deal well with short, sharp impacts like jumping from rock to rock and banging our head, but not with being centrifuged or similar.
May we never see th
How to Play with your Food
a penn & teller book- that's one of the tricks
You don't know what you are talking about. It is true that 1g is normal, but when speaking of gforces, they mean in addition to normal. I corvette can pull a skid pad rating of about 1g, a musclecar launches off the line at about 1g. There is definite postive g acting on the body. +1g as in normal "plus" one g.
You need to realize how much 5.6g is. A Pitts airplane which is one of the most successfull unlimited aerobatics planes ever, is only rated to +6/-6g.
This is quite interesting. Being a geek and BCS (broke college student), I was able to work at Six Flags Over GA and operate the batman ride coaster. In some areas, the ride does exceed 4.6g's for a few moments and rides at around 55-60 mph. Of course, the holy grail of coasters was de ja vu, which would actually exceed the 5.6g and hit around 6.4 I belive, but only in the first turn and went around at about 70-75mph. None of the numbers are very precise, because each ride can be different. We acutally never even think of it as speed, but as cycle time. Each time you ride, it is different due to how many riders, their height/weight, where they are seated etc and the weather conditions and condition of the track. The g's can change due to these factors, and the high cases are probably rare. Also, the computers monitoring these beasts can have rules set on them and as long as they do not exceed a set limit, the can brake the coasters in certain areas to keep things slower. (I've always wanted to see what kind of hardware was controlling these beasts, but they are locked and protected by a halon fire supression system) I'm glad they are not imposing that rule here.
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
He sustained no impact to the head and yet spent months in a coma from closed head brain trauma.
Ok, he sustained a force of about 90 gees to do it, but the point is closed head brain trauma strictly from g-forces with no impact to the head itself is quite common. The brain *moves* inside the skull and has *inertia.* If the forces are high enough the brain can impact the *inside* of the skull even without impact. It's called a *concusion.*
With extremely high and sustained g-forces internal organs can actually "moosh." (Please excuse my use of such a highly technical medical term).
I think this law is a bit on the doofey side because no coaster in normal operation is going to approach these force levels, but let's not lie about it.
KFG
And the article clearly stated that the 5.6 Gee limit was for periods of over 1 second in length.
What's my point? The comment about how this is absurd because you sustain 10 gees falling into a chair is ignoring the fact that they stipulated that it must last at least a second. That phrasing makes it clear to me that the person who wrote this law *did* take into account the fact that in normal conditions objects receive quick impulse accellerations that are very high, and that those aren't a problem.
More than likely the reason for the law, by the way, was NOT the limits the human body can take, but how much frequent inspections and maintenence such a high-gee ride would need to be kept structurally sound. Under those forces, the fear is, the ride itself would rip apart some vital connections somewhere because nobody noticed they needed replacing.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
And of course, there's always the kind of flat turn you don't *want* to do - the kind from a bad stall.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
... are you allowed to decide anything yourself?
... ...
... no g-force, no body armor (California), ...
... freedom were are you?
Plastic bags with warning
People putting animals into the microoven for drying
and succesfully sueing against the manufacturer
Next time they'll print: attention, brain required
C'mon
no talk in restaurants while the band is playing
All my friends who were in the states are very afraid
of the rules
With hand over mouth, in a muffled, inconspicuous mumbling voice: "Cough..cough..pussies..cough..cough.."
Um, I got my license at 16. I'm Canadian pretty sure it's the same in the US (no, I DON'T drive a snowmobile or dogsled).
Kids don't need to be 18 to get a turtle or other reptillian pet either, how many got sick from salmonella and/or died or it? Technically there's probably a higher injury/death rate from kids getting chewed on by their cute little puppy as it gets bigger and they continue to pull on its ear...
No dear, you can't play with the puppy, you're not 18 yet - phorm
There are several very harsh stipulations if you want to drive before you are 18. Practically no-one under 18 is getting a drivers' license anymore. Take a look at your local high school parking lot.
You can watch network TV before you're 18, but that's carefully censored by the FCC. For cable or satelite TV (which doesn't follow the FCC censors), you do have to be 18 or older to get the service.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Kids are NOT allowed to get a pet. It is their parents (adults) that get the pet. Again, parents can give their children permission to do things that are not very risky, but that usually doesn't apply to thrill-seeking activities.
No parent can give their child permssion to have sex, smoke cigarettes, etc.
As for driving... there are a large number of extremely strict restrictions on drivers under the age of 18, to the point that a driver under 18 is getting quite rare.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Here's a picture for you.
;-)))))
Mahoro.
Do you like it?!
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss
If you're 16 you can't get a puppy? Maybe this is different in the US but I certainly never had a probably with that type of thing up here in the land 'o' Maple leaf. Oh, and I think our legal for sexual activity is also around 16. At some point it was 14 for male and 16 female, but they've equalized it at one of those points, I can't remember which.
Driving restictions here are also Province dependent, probably state dependent down in your end of the continent.
No puppy for you, come back, one year! - phorm
but it seems to me any airplane with one or more vertical stabilizers could perform a flat turn.
Yes, more or less. Rudder left, and the nose of the aircraft turns to the left. Eventually, you will describe a full circle. Slow and not very useful. But also, you start to lose airflow over the wings. Which has to be compensated for. A real turn is done by a combination of bank and elevator.
Think of as the difference between a rear wheel drive car, and a 4WD, 4Wsteering car. On snow. In a rear wheel car, yes, you can hang the back out at an angle, and still be going more or less forward. In a 4WS car, you can haul ass around the turn. The front AND the back steer throgh the turn. Or, with uncoupled frt and rear, you can have all 4 wheels pointed in one direction, with the body in another.
Single axis (sideways) vectored thrust 'turns' the jet. Add 2 axis vectoring (left/right and up/down), and you can climb or descend, while keeping the nose flat (good for maintaining aim/missile lock). Or jink sideways, while still keeping the nose pointed at the target.
The jet body can be uncoupled from the actual direction the jet is moving.