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Senior Navy Official Slams Microsoft
Here is a short article which indicates that the Navy is not happy with Microsoft. One paragraph: "There are shareware products that have better groupware features than those of Microsoft products, he said, drawing applause from the audience." ("He" is Undersecretary of the Navy Jerry MacArthur Hultin.)
Oh yeah. LookOut! Perhaps the most despised client app by mail admins since Bloated Goats. Good idea.
One could argue that only thing "clueful" about developers doing anything with LookOut! would have to be that they're clued that they can make a lot of money with no-questions-asked because it's Microsoft product.
Yes, I'm an Admin. I get more complaints about e-mail problems from LookOut! users than all others combined. Imagine that. What good is an alleged "groupware" product if one can't even depend on it to deal with plain old e-mail reliably?
And as far as groupware products go: last I looked, LookOut!/SexChange was the weakest of the pack. (Except perhaps in sales volume. It is, after all, a Microsoft product.)
What the U.S. Navy ought to be doing is insisting that all of its vendors' products adhere to open standards. For the clue-impaired: Microsoft "standards" does not necessarily equate with open standards.
Dude, people love to see bad things happen to people a lot more wealthy than themselves.
People who want bad things to happen to esr, please stand up.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Now people who want bad things to happen to this "ZicoKnows" (who is unlikely to be rich), please stand up...
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I rarely laugh out loud at posts, but this one got me. Probably because it included the word "toilet".
I said to my wife at that time that Microsoft's monopoly is over, because the average person had finally acquired contempt for their shoddy products, even if they were still using them.
New XFMail home page
Not to turn this troll fest into a productive conversation, but anyone know what good groupware products this guy might have been referring to?
Any that run on NT? (I use what the boss tells me, deal with it.)
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Not to mention how expensive NT is and that us US citizens get to pay for such an inferior product, when better, cheaper, more relaiable options exist. Its inexcusible that the Navy single sourced with NT. Totally inexecusible.
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Python
Python
you need parens around the if test. Also, you might of meant post(\%article), which would pass a reference to the hash instead of converting it into a list (Assuming that you are not using prototypes and declaring post as sub post ($) { .. }).
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Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right.
****Gfx Scrollbar Special case hit!!*****
I don't know of any replacement for Visio. Dia looks good (do a search on Freshmeat), but it doesn't have all of the the functionality of Visio.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/
Novell is porting Novell Directory Services to Linux, which should make your SSO solution a snap, for NT and Linux machines. Native NDS services also means that you don't need a NetWare server.
NDS is far better than ADS in almost all respects. It is stable, well-documented and supported. It is on its third version and tenth year of development. It works well with DNS, unlike ADS, which refuses to cooperate well with BIND (not just server, but client, too).
http://www.novell.com/products/nds/
Read more about the advantages of Novell NDS over Microsoft ADS here.
http://www.novell.com/advantage/nds/
HP OpenMail supports MS Outlook, including calendaring. Free license for Linux (no support and only 50 users).
http://www.ice.hp.com/cyc/om/00/index.html
But, if you insist on free groupware, I suggest looking at SourceForge, CODA, Global File System, Reliable Multicast File Transfer, VIC, RAT, CVS, any NNTP server plus XVNews or newsreader with similar level of functionality, IMAP, Postfix, any fully-featured MIME-compliant e-mail package, ICQ for Linux (or similar) and this news site's Very Own Slash!
If Exchange can match, 1:1, every scrap of functionality ovvered by the above setup, show me. If not, it's not worth wasting my time over. If I can do better, for less, using Industry-Standard Software and Protocols, I don't need to fork out large sums of money on something that doesn't offer anything else and throws away all the security I could have, using the free tools I've listed.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
IMHO, the Navy needs Linux. Linux doesn't particularly need any of the military, but they DO need it, or at least some Open Source system. I imagine FreeBSD and OpenBSD would be two good alternatives to Linux. (NetBSD is, from what I've heard, a hotbed of politics, which might make the more discerning customers a little nervous.)
Open Source solutions provide the stability AND SECURITY that the Navy needs, both from a military and legal stand-point. There is also, as the gentleman pointed out (though mis-naming it "shareware"), the Groupware that he needs to operate an efficient service.
In my books, I'd say that Linux and the *BSD's would be hot-favourites, right now, to win a contract with the Navy. And, once they see the sheer quality, I suspect they'll stick with it.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
[ There are shareware products that have better groupware features than those of Microsoft products, he said, drawing applause from the audience. ]
Ok then, give some shareware developer out there an early christmas present and buy his software. If not, then basically...shutup. Or was he hoping to get some beanie points by bashing Microsoft?
The Department of Defense has already made a large commitment to using an Open Source groupware package called CVW, that was developed as an internal research project by MITRE. There's an article in the latest Linux Journal about it. My guess is that Undersecretary Hultin was referring to CVW, and confused shareware with open source.
OSS trivia item: Eric Raymond was instrumental in helping convince MITRE (and their legal department) to release CVW as Open Source Software.
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
The Department of Defense has already made a large commitment to using an Open Source groupware package called CVW, that was developed as an internal research project by MITRE. There's an article in the latest Linux Journal about it.
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
Federal development has a long history of public disclosure, and Open Source development is well known for providing the widest possible exposure of the codebase to security audit.
The common weakness of Open Source projects is the limited bandwidth for integrating the influx of data, patches, and functionality requests. Good projects have, and need, that core group of developers to guide the flow of the code, and it's this behavior that lends legitimacy to claims of authorship long after others take over non-insignificant module implementation.
This is the most concentrated point of labor in the otherwise highly distributed architecture of open code evolution. This, combined with the Federal Government's prediliction for disclosure and concerns about (national!) security, would make it advisable for at least a few government contracters to consider integrating the GPL as a key win in their official project bids.
The timing is perfect: Microsoft's Worst-Case Scenario of the Sixty-Five Thousand Bug Operating System has deflated expectations of W2K considerably. Most governmental managers(decision makers) have just had a well-respected higher-up validate their employee's doubts in the "dominant paradigm". The market has fully validated Linux as a viable platform. And The Code Needs A Shepard.
Why not Open Outsource? So much of the resistance to bringing in outside workers is that the internal developers aren't confident outside workers are going to meet their specific user requirements. Internal resistance would be lessened considerably if employees knew they could always fix the problems in software they were being tasked with deploying--and they'd even get to have their fixes integrated into the next release! Various departments would be able to cease redundant development; critical fixes would be integrated, experimental forks would be both possible and feasable at a low cost of exploration, and outside developments would be integrated into the central source trees based upon the strength of functionality, not force.
Open Outsourcing is the answer to the question of how the code development house makes money in the essay <a href="http://www.doxpara.com/core.html">I published some time ago</a>, and should be considered by decision makers throughout the entire market. I was just recently working on integrating this information into my essay before the DDoS stuff hit; I'd be happy to have it ready as soon as possible if anybody wishes to take advantage of it to try to win a contract.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
The 4.6 Notes client does work with Wine. It's not 100%, but it is enough for everyday use. I've used it and the only thing stopping me from using it all the time on linux instead of windows is a lack of memory on my linux machine. I believe a guy in our linux user group now only uses it on linux. Check out http://www.brooklinesw.com/linux/lin uxnotes.html for more information.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Nightmare? It shouldn't be a nightmare for a company that knows what it's doing, like IBM. The company I work for has thousands of unix machines (soon to include linux) distributed across the US. I don't think anyone considers it a 'nightmare'. Standardize the software/hardware distribution and make sure that only authorized people have the ability to update the software. Given the support contracts involved with something like the Federal Government, I'm sure it's more like a dream than a nightmare.
Just because there are a ton of MSCEs, doesn't mean we have to justify their existence. That's like saying at 1900, there's a ton of blacksmiths, buggies, and horses, so just forget about those automobiles.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Groupware systems are fairly easy to implement. I mean real groupware stuff, not the bollocks that Exchange pretends to be.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pracintgr/
So many sheep go with Exchange though, when in fact it's functionally destitute.
Deleted
What would be really funny would be to see the Navy running on Shareware products! :)
I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.
T?he US? Na?vy ?has ?an ob?jection? to Micros~1?
soft?are
C?n they? like wr?te an article using somethin? ?hat works so ?e can re?d wh?t thei? grievance is?
?
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
My bet is that they'll return to Lotus Notes.
I quit my last job, which was primarily web development using Notes/Domino 4.6, because 4.6 was an incredibly frustrating platform upon which to develop good web applications - that is, applications which are designed to run in a web browser.
But Notes is an incredibly powerful platform if you are willing to use the Notes client. Notes has already received the necessary security certifications - otherwise the Navy wouldn't have been using it previously.
IBM, Lotus' parent company, has made Domino a central part of their larger internet strategy. IBM is making WebSphere work very closely with Domino, has greatly extended Java servlet support in Domino, and has included Domino support in their Visual Age for Java IDE.
I don't know of any other "industrial strength" groupware packages which have met the government's security requirements. They may very well be out there, but if so they definitely have a "nice" market, and a deficient Marketing department.
don't make me laugh little boy.
litestep is nice and all, but it is VERY weak, when compared to most *nix WindowManagers...
When you grow up, come back to the party, until then, play with your toys.
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
This isn't "news for nerds". It's a suit using some speech for his own purpose -- be it a to get a discount from MS, join the bash MS bangwagon or whatever.
As it happens, groupware under Windows gets much better if you take a peep at Exchange 2000 or hire clueful developers to do cool things with Outlook...
You wouldn't want them to take a journalistic chance, now, would you? Don't you realize that millions of dollars are riding on the shareholder's perception of this internet property?
>So, what Linux groupware products can we turn the Navy on to?
HP OpenMail or Lotus Notes for the server. What we still need is a good Lotus client for Linux.
One of the problems the DoD agencies face is that various mandates were made several years ago to standardize on Microsoft NT. Another problem is that new contracts are required to comply with the DISA DII COE. Currently only Microsoft NT, Solaris and HP Unix are directly supported by DISA. Until they directly support a Linux distribution or roll thier own, it will be very hard to get Linux based products into the DoD and other government agencies.
Funny that he starts bashing microsoft just before negotiating on the (presumably vast) Intranet/Internet project. You don't think thew Navy pays retail, do you?
-- need more time?
>Microsoft is responsible for bugs in other companies' software?
Any decent OS is responsible for handling error messages from the client applications, & keeping the rest of the system chugging along.
Think about it: if you had just kicked off an application that would update records in a million-row DB table, & it could be destroyed by some newbie's error of forgetting to include a semicolon, would *YOU* trust your work to that OS?
Of course, someone in the Navy was just plain stupid for entrusting an entire ship's safety to just one computer. A single, lucky shot could disable the computer, & the warship would be just as dead in the water if it was running NT, UNIX, or some POS written by a crackhead in return for a case of Ripple. And some prime rock.
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
Re point 3:
It may not be heavy duty enough for your needs, and it has the occasional bug, but the calendar works very nicely to keep our mixed workgroup of 40 assorted Linux, Windows and Mac users coordinated.
It has quite decent meeting and task scheduling. I guess you could also use Netscape mail if you liked. (Personally I just keep an Xterm open for pine).
No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.
Ok, this is off-topic and it's a major troll, but I wish that all the clueless lusers who write their web pages with word processing software would learn to turn off Smart Quotes. That crap just doesn't look right on the web, and as a result of the luser using Smart Quotes in this article, I stopped reading after the third or fourth sentence.
Some people just need to get their asses kicked!
Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
Or were you wishing that there were shareware products to change the ? to the proper character?
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
It isn't just the secretary of the Navy -- Microsoft has been doing a bunch of customer research into Lotus Notes operations, as well as prepackaged web-based solutions, and they've heard about a million reasons why MS Groupware sucks.
Microsoft's answer to groupware is Microsoft Exchange. But what do you think of Exchange as being? An expensive Email server.
It sounds to me like they've gotten the message that Exchange (as it stands) will never be more than a half-assed e-mail/calendar server. The problem is changing directions.
They've been running around whispering about some vaporware called "Tahoe" for a while now. The goal is to make MS Office the groupware 'client', and to make extended versions of IIS and MSSQL the groupware 'server'. Exchange only fits into the picture as an MTA -- it's unstable Jet databases are going to fade quietly into the night.
Note that if they can pull this off, they will strike at a big weak spot in Lotus. Notes has always had pretty poor integration with MS Office because they've chosen to sold the integration features as a value add in Lotus SmartSuite. The problem is that 95% of their customers use MS Office and have to fumble around with file attachments, etc.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
My understanding is that's incorrect -- the SQL backend is planned for Exchange 7. Ex2000 (v6) does allow you have mutiple Jet databases, however.
(I am a little confused at the "web store" feature -- as far as I can tell it's exchange stuff stored as XML documents in the traditional Jet backend. It does, however, allow Lotus Domino-like webserving of groupware content.)
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I just can't help but thinking that if they really implemented MSDE, they would have "Powered By SQL Server!" written all over the marketing materials. Still there's a beta sitting around, so I suppose I could install it and see. (Of course, I could also start burning myself with cigarettes just for fun -- I've been waiting around since the v4 beta cycle for Exchange to get even halfassed, and I've pretty much lost patience.)
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
They converted from HP-UX to NT for ship operations and the system crashed during sea trials. See it here
Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
Dude, people love to see bad things happen to people a lot more wealthy than themselves. Your wife was probably wondering how she married such a simpleton.
People who want bad things to happen to esr, please stand up.
You've never read any ESR-related threads on Slashdot, have you? In other words, terrible choice.
Well, unless you were trying to rally people to want bad things to happen to ESR, which I wouldn't advocate, but would have to admit was funny, considering that we're on Slashdot.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Then change your prefs so that html is default..
Customise Comments -> Comment post mode
O.k., so I exaggerated a bit -- make that a 4Mb quota.
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
Hey, first they use MTS (Michigan Terminal System) as the name for their transaction monitor. Now they use Tahoe, which everybody knows really was an intermediate BSD 4.3 release, as a codename for an unreleased Microsoft product. Perhaps they are trying to sow confusion so that everybody forgets past superior operating systems. It's a good thing Linus has trademarked Linux; otherwise the next rumored product from Microsoft might be the W2K-based "Linux" telephony/PBX server.
:-)
Personally, I'm thinking of starting a new line of stainless steel cookware for geeks called "L'Inox"
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
Small Comment Penalty (Assign -1 to comments smaller than this many characters. This might cause somecomments to be rated -2 and hence rendered invisible!)
Long Comment Bonus (Assign +1 to lengthy comments)
What i really want is:
All Capitals penalty (Assign -2 to comments which contain more than 50% capital letters)
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
Sure we screwed up royally on that one. Shit does happen, it was a mistake, a huge mistake and we should take responsibility. We shouldn't be like Israel. Remember their "mistake" with the USS Liberty. they never appologized for that. why should they, it wasn't a mistake, they murdered our brothers. they knew it was a US ship, they knew it was unarmed. they thought that the sailors on the Liberty knew that the Israeli army was executing POW's. They wanted to kill the whole crew. They shot the men who were in lifeboats. they wanted no witnesses to their war crimes.
Shit does happen, and that's too bad. We need to pay reparations to the families of the victims.
We created the theocracy in Iran by our support of SAVAK. It is our fault.
How many stinger missiles did Reagan have to give to Iran to get them to hold the hostages until the day after his swearing in? What were those two Israeli C130's doing at Terhan airport the day of the hostages release? What were they carrying?
photosMy Photostream
See Above
Blar.
> Why didn't I build that bunker when I had the chance?
Should be plenty available at close-out rates right now.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Just what the net needed. More servers to be used by script kiddies as launching points for DoS attacks. How many geeks work for the Navy?
Geez, what do they think they are? UCSB or Stanford?
Just a dude. Stuck in IT.
The navy's existing purchasing policy is that anything Microsoft needs no sign off to buy it (i.e. you can buy with no approval). Anything non-microsoft requires the regular approval procedure. This is anectdotal, from a buddy who worked recently in the navy, but believed to be accurate. For navy offices busting a gut to be efficient/effective this policy is not condusive to qc.
I'm looking at the article, which states that until last year the Navy had a license with Lotus for competing products.
I am then assuming that they dropped Lotus and switched to Microsoft... a move that undoubtedly used hundreds of thousands (if not more) tax dollars for re-training employees. Now they're possibly looking at switching again. How much is that going to cost me?
Here's a suggestion: evaluate a product before you buy it.
I still say we need a (-1, Pedantic) moderation option.
Um.. you're talking about IBM here. They used to have phalanxes of people to throw at every support problem. They'd love to again deal with a huge IBM Linux installed base.
I think He speaks of ZOPE. DC just did a big job for the NAVY overhauling their People Search Site.
They must have showed them what ZOPE in the hands of a Zen Master can really do. For very little cost.
The NAVY can do anything they want with money like that. They probably think they are saving money by using shrink wrap products, but not with a cutthroat company like MS. They could DEVELOP any productivity apps they want for that kind of money.
Too bad innovation is so difficult for these major govenerment agencies, not to mention the number of parasites that will take the development cash, not produce anything, and run.
John
The entire comment is rendered invalid by even suggesting that W2K is worse than 98. I mean, didn't you ever talk to the guys doing desktop support? 98 is practically unsupportable. Add in a large environment and you are just screwed. W2k may be more complicated than it is worth, but it is still so much better than 98 that they don't belong in the same sentence. We all like *nix better (or are some kind of masochists), but there are hierarchies of crap.
wake up and find out that you are the eyes of the world.
That's been around for over a year now. Just put in the # of characters after which the comment gets the +1 bonus. Putting in 0 disables it.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
for this much money you can pay a dozen of full time programmes who write you a custom application that does what you want. (maybe hiring the programmes of the shareware product you like) if you open soucre that application you are not dependent on them and get additonal people working for you for free! plus: an organisation which is fianced by public taxes should give something back to the people for their money after all..
mond.
The Navy has this plan called "IT-21", which makes it mandatory to use "Commercial, off-the-shelf" technologies. Usually, "COTS" is code for "MS Windows NT". Unfortunately, this is still being used by the Navy and its contractors in the new smart ship program. Which doesn't make me feel all that good when my next ship tour comes up in a couple of years. Clearly, this plan needs revising.
...
However, that doesn't mean that I refuse to advocate "The right tool for the right job", like FreeBSD for web servers, etc. The problem is that enlisted rates like the DP's and the RM's (now IT's) had bad experiences with other Unixes and like the "simplicity" of NT.
OTOH, the Navy also committed to ATM as their fundamental network technology for the 21st century. So,
-scooter
A divide by zero shouldn't cause a blue screen of death. Which is what happened on the servers.
-scooter
"I'm going to Microsoft at the end of this month to say to [chief executive officer] Steve Ballmer, 'You talk about how you create a business group process system, but I'll tell you [that] you don't come close to giving us what we need,' "
This doesn't say anything that everyone doesn't already know. His trip, IMHO, would be an expensive trip all for the purpose of _not much_. He's basically said, "We want to spend money on your Microjunk, but we cannot justify it now. We'll give you another chance, though, and we'll buy your stuff if you change it." That's not a tough stand at all.
There are shareware products that have better groupware features than those of Microsoft products, he said, drawing applause from the audience.
That's great ... now MS will be sure to stomp those smaller software vendors out of business ... all in the name of "giving the Navy what they need."
What the Navy needs to be doing is going out and seeking partnerships w/ those smaller vendors, promoting their work, and pumping money some place other than into MS. ...
--
I wrote the play & still own the script
He wasn't trying to knock down the price, he wasn't even warning the bidders that the days of "nobody was ever fired for buying Microsoft" are over.
The key is in the final paragraph of the story. There are four companies bidding on this job, and all have indicated they intend to use Microsoft products. Pure chance, of course, since everyone knows that Microsoft is not a monopoly (*cough*).
Since all bidders will use the same product, this is essentially a "single source" bid. Single source bids tend to make government agencies very nervous, esp. when that single source has a history of successful government prosecution for misdeeds. But the companies each fear that breaking from the non-opoly will is equivalent to voting for the libertarian candidate - it may make you feel better, but you don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning.
Enter the gentlemen and his comments. He is sending a clear signal to the companies that it is not immediate suicide to announce a plan that doesn't include set-asides for the impoverished communities outside Seattle. To retain credibility, the nature of the game requires that at least one of the two finalists include non-MS products (assuming it isn't *totally* DOA), otherwise the military will be getting straight MS bids for the next 30 years.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The government will only accept bids from companies that are certified as capable of satisfying the contract. This is a *huge* contract, and it's no coincidence that the companies listed include IBM, CSC, and a couple other large companies whose name escapes me at the moment.
This means that not only is no "young" company eligible to place a bid, even the senior project management is likely to be "highly experienced" at federal contracts. Read: expect everyone to have spent twenty years in the military, then another decade or two in defense contracts on the other side of the fence. I've known a few very cool project managers, but most of them seem stuck in the past century. Make that *two* centuries ago, now. Where you see a neat new technology, they will see buddies killed because the new-fangled M-16 rifle jammed in Vietnam.
(Just wait until a BoI finds that a ship was lost, with all hands, due to a stupid software error....)
That said, some groups might want to experiment with the hardware you describe. But this sounds more like a DARPA-funded research project than a billion dollar multi-year contract.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
"So why the story? And why post it here?"
Because now not only do you know it, all the geeks in the server room know it but the govt knows it as well.
War is necrophilia.
No they are responsible for building an OS that can't be crashed by a rouge application.
War is necrophilia.
Why should he shut up doesn't he have first amendment rights? Or is MS now more powerful then the US Navy?
War is necrophilia.
wasn't it even worse? didn't a single program on a single workstation lockup and take the server down, which took down all the NT servers on the ship?
Yeah, some dude who shaves his head once a week and was trained to fix only things covered in manuals would be an authority figure in this field. Did anyone ever consider that the navy's screw up with MS products might just have been due to the majority of mid-west morons that join up to avoid working at the lube rack?
Who was it that said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
If you don't like what you see on the highway, put your computer back in the box and take it back to the store damnit.
Sorry, my mistake. I stand corrected.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Except maybe Balmer will get shot, not Gates.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
They may be better in some respects but not overall. They may implement things that MS obviously could without any difficulty but haven't.
If MS is better overall, it doesn't mean that they haven't missed out on some really obvious features that people need.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
One of the ways the free market operates is that feedback about goods on sale becomes public knowledge. So if a company rips one person off, they can tell everyone else before the whole market gets ripped off. As far as I can see, the army guy is just exercising this right/responsibility.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Big organisations rarely buy 36000 copies of a piece of shrinkwrapped software. They negotiate a contract with the software house, whereby the software house guarantees that the software will serve its purpose (e.g.) 99.9% of the time. A "best endeavour" contract says that the software house will do everything in its power to make this happen, even if it bankrupts them to do it.
So the army bloke has probably got his fingers burnt in a contract like this.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
> slashdot is [turning into] a linuxuser vs msuser forum.
I don't agree. Many people here are very angry at MS for forcing shoddy software onto them for many years (via OEM sales, illegal monopoly activities etc.) and see linux as the first genuine choice for a long time. So naturally some people react (over-)violently to anti-linux FUD. But in general most posters give an informative statement of their informed opinion. Articles like this are an exception rather than a rule.
There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who lucidly expound their arguments. Try finding a similar level of informed discussion on a pro-MS site. (Here I discount grits/natalie portman trolls - browse at 0 if you don't want to see these).
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Ok, since you seem to be pretty sure about there being good free groupware available for Linux, name the package that's better than Microsoft's exchange system. And don't say Lotus notes because that's not free.
NT 4.0 Server does too, however, the problem with it isn't that you can't telnet in, it's that you can't run much of anything, as NT was designed to be one person sitting at the machine, not many people running processes off the machine. The command line tools in NT are not documented terribly well, and most of the programs you run in NT assume you are right there at the computer. It makes it a real pain to try and get something to work without PCAnywhere, or BO2k, or whatever your favorite remote mgmt tool is.
--Rae
Blah I can't get my sig to work, it won't fit.
I think the anti-trust suit may have finally stripped M$ of its aura of invincibility in the public eye. For a long time, Joe Random Public thought that the world's largest software company must be just the greatest, particulary if J.R.P. never had the opportunity to see software from any other company. This is still true of a lot of people today, but I think that the general public is finally catching on to the astonishing idea that M$ may actually suck.
Many of those in charge of procurement in the military may have known this for a long time. But it may have only recently become possible for someone like this guy to say so in public.
So, what Linux groupware products can we turn the Navy on to?
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
... the hostages, and the journalists they murdered in 1979.
The burning of our flag, and vows to kill us all, the "Great Satan" nation.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just wanted to remind you.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
If whatever shareware he's talking about is that good, he just might, but remember this is the Government we're talking about. There are layers upon layers upon sublayers upon strata of bureaucracy to plow through before you get to the point where you hand Joe Developer a check for his shareware text editor. However, since this IS the Government, that check could end up being for 100,000 copies of JoeDevWrite.
--
Someone you trust is one of us.
While I vividly recall playing Starcraft on the lan, it had no official reason to be there, along with redneck rampage and the FT's porn collection. Bottom line: the shit put on the system was put there because there was no experienced admin, NT "looks" easy, price wasn't a factor, and evidently the entire federal government was supposed to settle on a single operating system and NT was picked (thank you, Redmond political lobby).
Want a truly scary site? Check out http://www.ntgov.com , a site that goes along with a magazine i've seen on every boat i've been stationed on, and at the Naval Reserve Center in Louisville, Ky.
About the Marines...Either he was full of shit, or you are. Speaking as a former submariner w/ 6yrs in, the only navy ships i know of with a marine detachment would be "gator freightors" (amphib assault), or carriers. And they do NOT learn tactics from Doom (unless you count sinking like a stone in water... we damn near drowned some jarheads once...looong story) Contrary to popular opinion, the security i've seen on surface ships isn't that tight. The most junior personnel are the ones who get stuck guarding the ship/boat. On surface ships, the crew is usually large enough, and the guards green enough, that they don't know the entire crew. (btw, us bubbleheads are much tighter knit. y'know what they say... 100 men go down, 50 couples come up...) As long as you wear the right uniform, show what looks like a green military id, and salute the watch and ensign properly, they haven't a clue. That's not to say i recommend trying it, however: even a tiny fast attack sub in stand-down with a skeleton crew onboard still has at least four people minimum up and alert at all times, with detailed plans for alerting the rest of the crew/base and armed defense.
...that's the only free "groupware" product I can think of. I've seen it in use on more than one U.S. submarine. In my opinion, it's not bad, but it's not all that great either.
The only other program that springs to mind is Goldmine, and that sure as hell ain't cheap, let alone free. Then again, I didn't spend much time onboard surface ships, so I may have missed something.
This is hardly the first anti-Microsoft story in GCN. The one that comes to my mind is the one about how one dude decided that NT is insecure as a web server and is going back to the only secure web platform: Macintosh. (and the basis of this security is that Macintosh has zero remote administration)
Try OpenMail.
I work for the Navy and often employ Linux/Perl/Apache for intranet apps and to use it as a Samba server.
Recently, per a request by Linux today, I wrote a short article on my experience with using Open Source software in the Navy. Before I could release the article and had to run it by "legal". They came back and denied my request for publishing the article as it could be construed that the Navy was promoting or endorsing a product.
The following month I came across an article in "Government Computer News" that highlighted the grow use of NT at JPL. The article might have been written by MS propaganda department. So it is good to see someone up high come out and make some realistic comments concerning MS products.
Wow, is it me or is Slashdot launching a anti-Win2K news campaign right before it's release? And here I thought only Microsoft was capable of FUD. Congratulations on proving me wrong. So are all these news articles paid for by VA? How about posting some positive Win2K articles without any sarcastic quip from the "reporter"? Oh that's right, Slashdot is commited to herding it's readers into one particular direction. How silly of me to believe that even a remote attempt at unbiased reporting could happen here.
According to the article, annual NAVY expenditures are 88 Billion. Fist Call lists Microsoft's annual revenues for 1999 at 21.8 Billion. While the NAVY may be Microsolft's biggest customer, it is unlikely that the ultimate barganing chip - Naval dissertion of Microsoft products - will deeply impact M$ in the eyes of Wall Street. Besides, M$ has significantly increased soft money "donations" to both political parties. So, I wish the Undersecretary good luck in his discussions with the M$ CEO. By summer, he will probably be working for Red Hat.
FYI: Exchange 2000 ( in beta now) uses SQL server as database, btw.
---
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
I thought it was the new MSDE (m$ Data Engine, the single user SQL server that can be installed INSTEAD of Jet on Access 2k with a custom install). In this case the only "user" of the database is Exchange, so it's OK. MSDE is completely file compatible with SQL Server, you can turn a MSDE database to a SQL server just by using SQL's "attach database" statement. I might be wrong. It seems like the feature set of M$ products keeps changing every time I look. First COM+ is part of Win2k, then it's not, then it's back in......
---
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
In the interest of OpenSource, or the geek's right to reverse-engineer closed processes, I am posting my theories on the slashdot submission queue process:
$article{body} =~
{
post(%article);
}
Am I missing something?
(freedom of regular expression =anagram> so, exposing referred formulae)[
There are shareware products that have better groupware features than those of Microsoft products, he said, drawing applause from the audience.
</i>
<br><br>
Ok then, give some shareware developer out there an early christmas present and buy his software.
If not, then basically...shutup. Or was he hoping to get some beanie points by bashing Microsoft?
<br><br>
BTW, has he not been looking into Windows 2000?
thanks :)
why was the 'smart' html/text hybrid removed? :|
I keep forgetting the default now is text not html
:P
Win 2000 has a built in Telnet Server...
See http://slashdot.org/articles/9807 21/1049204.shtml
for more memories.
Hey! I want that driver for my 5.25" missile battery as well, so they'd better release it as Open Source!
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
I think you should go to Jeff K.'s site. You'll find him cool, I'm sure.
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Here's The Honorable Jerry MacArthur Hultin's webpage. You can even snag a 1.5 megabyte picture of him! (Why anyone would do that is beyond me...)
FUCKING HELL YEAH!!
Now if we can only get the NAVY to go Linux instead of
Winblows NT
SA Isaac Griffith
United States Navy
Those who wear glasses should not throw them at stones
Is it just me, or is this new:
Small Comment Penalty (Assign -1 to comments smaller than this many characters. This might cause some comments to be rated -2 and hence rendered invisible!)
Long Comment Bonus (Assign +1 to lengthy comments)
What am I supposed to choose for the second one, it's just a text box! =) And I don't remember seeing either one before...
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
It's so typical of people to attack what they don't like, even if they would have done the same thing. The point is that it's you and me that have been fooled around by Microsoft, and then we start whining when we realize the prize to pay. It's not Microsofts fault that people are so easy to screw around, and what company won't take people's money? We should really think more about our lives and take responsibility for our own silliness.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
The Undersecretary of the Navy is going to go to Redmond to tell Steve Ballmer that Microsoft's groupware products are terrible.
So? Does he think he's going to tell Ballmer something that Ballmer doesn't already know?
Quick Quiz Time: Name Microsoft's "groupware products" that we're talking about here. Ready? What's your answer?
Microsoft's answer to groupware is Microsoft Exchange. But what do you think of Exchange as being? An expensive Email server. What does the entire corporate marketplace think of Exchange as being? An expensive Email server. Perhaps a slow, difficult-to-administer, and expensive Email server. I run a small company, and we're a Microsoft ISV. We get Exchange for free (bundled with the rest of the software we license) and we're likely to toss it for a Linux server and SendMail. Build enterprise applications on top of Exchange? You must be joking....
But is that some revelation to the Navy? To the Undersecretary? To Steve Ballmer? To Bill? Nope. If Microsoft's corporate muscle, marketing prowess, and sheer evil were one-third of what the Dept. of Justice (and your typical Linux pre-teen) insist, Exchange would be ubiquitous. Lotus Notes is sold at very hefty prices--much higher prices than Microsoft charges for Exchange (if Microsoft charges anything for Exchange at all). Lotus is sold by IBM, which is the living embodiment of "ham-handed" sales. So why does Notes still exist? Because Microsoft has a turkey of a product, and they (and everybody else) knows it.
So why the story? And why post it here?
The policy, dubbed "Don't Ask, Don't Shell", promises that as long as Linux users don't make their preferences known, they won't be disciplined.
Bill Gates called the policy "...a poor compromise compared to the proper response of interrogation and dismissal of anyone with Open Source tendencies, given the importance of secrecy in military organizations."
Nor was Linus Torvalds happy with the outcome. "It is ridiculous to think that, in the year 2000 -- or, in Microsoft terms, 1980 2.0 -- soldiers have to worry about being open and honest about using Linux. It's not bash users, but Linux-using bashers who should be targeted as insufficiently American for the military", said the famous Finn.
Richard M. Stallman claims the policy is a strained attempt to solve a problem with military personnel using Linux. "GNU/Linux users in the military might make better soldiers in the long run, which should TCL the generals. But soldiers using proprietary software shouldn't be allowed to benefit from working arm-in-arm with GNU/Linux users. That'd be an unfair Scheme since the GNU/Linux software can be shared but the proprietary software cannot."
Military personnel asked about this new policy had a wide range of reactions:
The Linux and BSD Alliance, formed to combat source-bashing worldwide, claims the policy is a small first step towards widespread acceptance of consenting adults exchanging source code as they see fit. Spokesdeity Eric Raymond explains, "we've long felt that if every closet user of an Open Source(TM) product in the military suddenly turned blue, they'd look butt-ugly in those uniforms." (Raymond is a well-known supporter of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear source.)
On a more humorous note, the editor of Soldier of Fortune Magazine announced they were responding to the new policy by making a small change to their name. They'll now be known as "Soldier of fortune Magazine".
Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
He is probably talking about replacing Exchange with something like Sendmail(depending on what He meant by shareware).
This much is true, Linux is has been up and busy for the USPS for a while. Try reading this.
The first part of the article;
Linux is reading your mail
John Taves, November 11, 1998
The United States Postal Service deployed over 900 Linux based systems throughout the United States in 1997 to automatically recognize the destination addresses on mail pieces. Each system consists of 5 dual Pentium Pro 200MHz (PP200) computers and one single PP200 all running Linux.
The USPS already had the mail piece scanners and some old custom computers that recognized the addresses. This project added the Linux computers to each scanner to run more modern OCR algorithms.
-d [usps retired]
This definitely is fishy to me. The article says they declined to renew the Lotus contract, but not why. I thought Notes had a good reputation for its groupware features. If the guy didn't think so, why didn't he go to Lotus and denounce them as he is Microsoft?
Also, if they declined the Lotus contract last year, then they must have investigated and prototyped a bunch of systems to replace it with. With an $88b budget, surely they must have realised that Microsofts' products didn't suit them before they bought into them? If not, why not?
Oh and which shareware products does he mean? He can't make such an accusation without backing up the statement. I think it's all sour grapes. I think he was sold by Microsoft's ad-men, bought into their software and then got burnt when the solution didn't work. Now he's trying to protect his arse by blaming MS. If not, prove me wrong, but without such a blanket statement.
I use Ecco, however, without taking advantage of its "group-ware" features, since others I work with don't have it. Had great reviews, though... I've also used the previously-Lotus now-IBM package (Organizer?), and didn't appreciate it at all. It's too clumsy, not customizable for effective individual use, not very intuitive.
All these packages are actually forms of databases, anyway; groupware is database-with-networking features.
Btw, I guess if /. moves up to the new XHTML standard, we'll all have to use <p> and <p/> for our comments longer than one paragraph?
Thanks for the interpretation! I had missed that one.... 8-)
Seriously, though, couldn't some bright young (i.e., quick) company put together a splendid batch of wearable computers with the upcoming Transmeta 5400, Linux OS, and custom apps specifically tailored for group-ware-type tasks? After all, a Navy ship seems like a good place to assume wireless computing can be used for effective communication/collaboration (as on the spaceship Enterprise!)....
See this article about WinNT crashing the USS Yorktown.
If that's not a mission critical system failure, what is?
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
The DoD has been evaluating and testing software for DMS (Defense Messaging System) since at least late '94. DMS is a secure messaging and groupware specification based on Fortezza (smartcard) encryption and X.400 and X.500 mail and directory services.
The prime contractor for this DoD project is Loral (or now Lockheed Martin), and the two competing subcontractors are Lotus and Microsoft.
Microsoft has been trying to push Exchange as a groupware platform for a long time, but it really does not fit the bill nearly as well as Lotus Notes (or Domino). The operating systems are going to be Microsoft (because the DMS specifications call for a turnkey solution, and unfortunately Linux is not widely considered a turnkey OS). But at least Lotus' products run on most platforms, whereas Microsoft's products run only on Microsoft platforms.
If I remember correctly, Hultin was a supporter of Lotus and was miffed when the Navy decided to switch gears and go with Microsoft (even though Lotus' products have fared better through all stages of Lockheed Martin's lab tests). Another example of Microsoft's influence over superior products.
You can learn more about Lotus's solution at http://www.lmdms.com/. Or do a web search for "Defense Messaging System".
Perhaps if you'd pull your head out of your ass, and get past the obvious fourth-grade education the original comment was written with, you'd see the underlying message.
Slashdot threads participants are generally whiney, anally retentive bitches - plain and simple. Even the open source community whines and bitches at its own members in the equally worthless BSD vs. Linux 'debates'. Jesus, this might as well be the stupid AOL forums with the amount of completely useless nitpicking and jeuvenile namecalling.
You make yourself look like a jackass by being condescending towards someone who is obviously right. I'm done, so feel free to get back to flaming the people you're not intelligent enough to debate legitimately.
Oh, and flaming as an AC just makes you look stupider. Have a nice day.
NerdPerfect.com : breakfast of champions.
and I'm not impressed. Its slow unstable and possibly even a worse operating system than it predessor NT 4.0 or Win98.
We were thinking of putting up an NT server for people who want frontpage extensions. Then we realized just how big of a headache it was to maintain it, and we completely dropped the whole idea. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here about looking at W2K.
Actually he would be better off by not looking and at least retain that "mirage" of a superior microsoft product in his head.
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
www.npsis.com
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
www.haidacarver.com
This would seem to be an ideal opportunity for IBM to offer a Linux solution in addition to the previously safe Microsoft "solution"? Sure, it probably won't be successful this time around (bureaucracy has more inertia than an aircraft carrier...) but it shows that they are serious about Linux and that they are listening to what the customer wants.
Also, its a good thing nobody really formally tests Linux and the software built on top of it in a typical server distribution (such as Apache, a mailer daemon, etc.)!! That lucky fact allows us to ignore that "Linux", taken as any actual distribution rather than just the kernel, very likely has as many, if not more, aggregrate bugs than W2K was reported as having!!!
Oh yeah!!! Life is good in LINUXLAND!!!
Umm what exactly can i do to "tailor" windows? Huh?... Get the src and hack it to my preferances? I think not. The only thing i could do is either use litestep for a mock wm effect =P, or *shudder* buy M$ Plus or something to add some lame feature to a powerless OS. No the only way to go is GNU/Linux or BSD.
ctrl+shift+S
I have to agree. guys, the microsoft sucks stories are getting old. You have other choices, use them if you don't like microsoft.
PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
the word here is "correct" notes, like all software products (including linux, BSD, and windows) when implemented correctly works great.
the "correct" part is the most difficult part =-)
PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
I am not exactly a flag waving MS zealot, but I have to disagree with Hultin. I work as an applications consultant, and one area of business I deal with frequently is messaging/groupware. I'm a big fan of cross-platform, open source, and shareware/freeware products, and I feel no love for companies like MS that rely on brilliant marketing rather than brilliant design to succeed. Still, I have to say that when a client asks for serious groupware features, the only packages that can meet those needs are the big three (Exchange, Domino, GroupWise). I think Hultin's statement makes great rhetoric, and I wish it were true, but I think he needs to take another look at what is out there and what capabilities it has.
Many times I have seen implementations that would have been great open source solutions go the way of proprietary software just because of the lack of readily available groupware packages. (Coders take note.)
That's just my $.02. Flame on.
...can be found here
http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/index.html
Hopefully, this will let you wean yourself from NT.
as far as this "bolt-on portal, knowledge mgmt. stuff" goes, we are definitley back at a point where we need to be reconsidering if COTS truly reduces TCO! I contend it doesn't.. Linux/Perl/DBI/Python/Zope/Sendmail/Apache.. it's all there.. our govt. decision makers (as well as industry captains) are making poor decisions..there will be accountability in the end (I hope)
regards,
bsqtsnfr
Hmm, lets see... Microsoft takes in 15 billion dollars a year in net profit and the U.S. Navy takes in 80 billion dollars a year in tax revenue. So far it looks like the navy is ahead but Microsoft could concieveably catch up. Of course to the Navys credit they are backed up with weapons of mass destruction and the rest of the U.S government. Oh yeah, and they are the customer (customer is always right) and they have great alternatives to Micrsofts products (OSS). .................................................. ..................................................
Me a troll, me no gnome, me smash ye head and break ye bones.
I don't know what this guy is talking about but sendmail doesn't have the features required to be considered groupware. At the minimum, you'd have to add calendaring to it.
I am the sysadmin at a rapidly growing high tech firm. Our hardware design engineers have been working diligently with NT, and cursing it frequently as it will die two hours into a simulation. Our design tools are mostly available on Linux, and the few that aren't will run on our Solaris boxes which is a similar user experience. They only need to understand one interface.
There are some key areas though where we need Linux-based solutions and don't currently seem to have any.
1) Visio - We do use Visio on NT quite extensively and need something like it on Linux. It doesn't have to be open source.
2) Single sign on - You're gonna shreik but MS is going to have the best solution in terms of Active Directory. Using NSS and PAM we hope to have Linux users authenticated by a Win2K server. Samba as an NT domain controller is still quite immature, and doesn't scale well across the enterprise.
3) MS Outlook - Our company depends heavily on Outlook. The integration between E-mail, calendar, and delegated tasks is a godsend to us and works precisely how we want it to. We're in a bit of a pickle on how we're ever going to share calendars and delegate tasts between Windows and Linux users. We need to have a groupware product that does all of this and runs on all platforms.
There's more, of course, but those are the big ones.
Screw Micro$oft.
Y'know I'm not sure but it seems like it 'happened' the same day someone managed to post porno images in comments.
/. and I see some woman slurping down on some guy's giant prick. Not that I wouldn't normally enjoy seeing something like that but I also enjoy being able to pay the mortgage and buy food and stuff and my employer has a habit of firing people who browse porno at work.
/. that someone found and the quickest way to stop it was to pull the html/text posting thingy.
That was fun, I'm at work skimming
Just a guess, but maybe there was some hole in
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Strange... With R5, you'd find it by clicking the Reply button and select Reply to All. A whole hour, hunh?
I'm not into bashing any specific OS for it's bugs or shortcomings - but who the hell implemented a mission critical computer without (1) A backup server (2) Non-cascading program threads (3) Using an OS that crashes? When I was in the Navy, the guy who specified NT would have been taken out to the flight deck and shot for treason. We used UNIX, with a backup mainframe. It was NEVER down - it would hang on occasion, bottlenecks up the wazoo, but never crashed. What's this world come to? Truly a sad state of affairs.
I've been crunching on a box for 15 years and this still confounds me. Micro$oft obviously has been selected by a number of companies because they can actually share information with other companies. Too bad IBM didn't partner with Xerox, or we MIGHT have a good, multi-threaded OS with a quality GUI, AND have the software to run on it. Instead, we have one OS that virtually all software runs on, and a multitude of fragmented platforms with truly good OS running on them.
If you want to create a revolution in the industry, quit bickering about who has the best OS and start leveraging your voice to make change happen. Linux is great, but what software suite runs on it? How about RedHat...still few offerings. My favorite GUI OS, BeOS, still has a scant offering of software. Unfortunetly, I have to run a triple-boot machine to be happy AND be functional with the rest of the world.
Now, who out there is going to take the concepts of Linux and UNIX, in a stable, multi-threaded environment, couple them with the ease of a GUI like RedHat, MacOS and RedHat, add the elegance of BeOS and DesqView, and put their money where their mouth is and MARKET the damn thing? If you do, we'll all be forking out the dollars until Sculley or Jobs find you and shoot you. Hell, I'll even bring a fresh pot of daisies to your funeral.
Just a little venting, IMHO...
Software, the easiest way to be forced to do it their way.
Welcome back. This site has been sadly lacking
in humor.