Linux And Hip Hop

greybeardthelonely writes: "TwoMobile.com has a great story on how Linux is like hip hop and rap music. There's even a hip-hop penguin ..." You should read this, even if you can't stand rap music. Here's a quote: "Just like Linux, rap music was something that scared corporations until it was big enough to be profitable, and suddenly everyone wanted a piece of the action."

Comments

oh please.

[Zurk]

open source coding has been available waay before linux and was available at universities waay before anywhere else. to compare it to a crap mainstream pop culture is degrading at best. and its not just a simple fashion trend.

Re:oh please.

[hardburn]

Yes, but rap music actualy started in the south in the 1950s. Eventualy, it made its way to New York (in the '80s), then to the big record companies. So, just as Open Source was around way before Linux, rap music was around way before the big record companies got hooked on it.

----------

Re:oh please.

[datazone]

so because you don't like rap or hip-hop its crap? well excuse me, while i go destroy my collection of cds...

rap

[Signal 11]

....First Annual Geeks With Rap Convention....

Eric Raymond> Aww, if youz ain't doin' the open source thang, you ain't fer real, boy!
Bruce Perens> Well then, break yo-self!
Richard Stallman> *singing* ssshhhaarree the software and be goooood hackers toooooo....
Eric Raymond> You my beeatch richard, come over here and I'll bust a 40 on you!
Bruce Perens> True, true.
Richard Stallman> *keeps singing*
Eric Raymond> Aight, I warned you boy!
*gunshots*
Bruce Perens> Let's right a song about it, we'll call it "kicking out the source"...

Nice comparison.

[urgle]

"rap music was something that scared corporations until it was big enough to be profitable"

...as opposed to heavy metal, doom metal, death metal and all metal varieties that endeared big corporations until they were big enough to be profitable.

Re:Nice comparison.

[MicroBerto]

the metal scene is awesome and more alive than EVER right now! come to dalnet #mp3_death for some samples

Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net) - AOL IM: MicroBerto

I agree with this on one principle

[mbpark]

Before 1990, rap music was not thought of as being as profitable as other forms of music.

Why is that? Before 1990, the Billboard lists were not compiled based on actual data, rather they were based on hearsay on what albums were selling the most from the record stores.

When soundscan was implemented in the summer of 1990, I believe it was, the first week's top 10 from Billboard based on actual album sales featured a VERY big surprise.

NWA was in the top 10, and at #2 that week with the album 'Efil4zaggin'. They were #1 the next week. Darn good album too, even though Ice Cube left NWA before it.

Much is the same with Linux and Microsoft. The old metrics of OS sales do not apply anymore, since Linux uses a different distribution method than Microsoft, as well as the traditional distribution channels. Now that the actual population of linux servers is being measured against the actual population of MS servers, the metrics have changed. In other words, the old methods of measuring OS penetration (physical sales) are like the pre-Soundscan methods (hearsay).

I am looking forward to seeing actual counts of Linux servers in corporations. Boeing has been cited as having over 50,000. I would especially like to see what percentage of the corporate mail server market Linux has over MS and Lotus.

In this way, Linux is like rap music, in that it was ignored because of methods of measuring sales and distribution that did not truly reflect actual figures.

Re:I agree with this on one principle

[yerricde]

I would especially like to see what percentage of the corporate mail server market Linux has over MS and Lotus.

Have you ever been to Netcraft? You can check what OS a server runs (although GNU/Hurd is reported as GNU/Linux).

The official freepuzzlearena server runs GNU/Linux:

Re:I agree with this on one principle

[Webmonger]

This is the bit where people start saying "intranet" and "email server". Netcraft's cool, but it doesn't go through firewalls and it's not about email. (And foo.com can be a completely different machine from foo.com's email server. Ask your friendly neighbourhood admin about DNS MX records.)

Re:I agree with this on one principle

[JDax]

I saw this article off a Linuxtoday link before /. posted it and thought it was stretching the comparison a bit too much (and not even worth putting in print), and although it's obviously generating alot of disucssion, it's also (as expected) generating alot of degenerative discussion.

Just as an FYI folks, "rap" was out WELL before the 80s whereas "hip hop" was an 80s thing (and the so-called "rappers" that folks keep citing and emulating on this forum weren't even BORN when rap began to appear - down in the basements at parties, out on the street corners in Brooklyn, and on the radio with a DJ named Doug "Jocko" Henderson, Sr.). &nbsp Rap was a rhythmic form for DJs to use in compliment to the music, to add to the entertainment at dance parties while spinning records, not something intended for real singers.

And the only comparison that I can maybe see (other than rap being almost as old as Unix - yes it is) is that both it and Linux started out being distributed (as the parent of this suggests) via what could be termed "the underground", ie., "street" rappers could only distribute their works on tape themselves to their friends and interested listeners (no BIG RECORD COMPANY(tm) would do it because R&B, Soul, Rock,and Pop, and at one time, Disco (which is alive and well and renamed to "House" and "Club" music), were more profitable) just as Linophiles, at one time, distributed copies of distros to their friends via disk or their own burned CDs (not counting FSF or Walnut Creek) - ie., before the "commercial" boxed distros became available.

Other than that, the comparison really ends...

Re:Uhhh

[stoner]

I can see it now. All the hardcore gangsta' rappers touting GnuPG as the only way to keep your dope deals secret. Hells yeah.

linux and rap

[Yablo]

Anybody remember how the Beastie Boys and RUN-DMC changed the face of rap music back in the 80's? Linux is like the Beasties, but it is changing the computer and opensource communities. Streamlined versions are already making their way into the home, (here I am thinking of the TiVo.) and into schools. (I run a Linux box at my school that provides email and web hosting for well over 200 students.) Things will change. Linux could (and hopefully will) take over Micro$oft. It has a promising future.

Hmmm...

[punkass]

Okay, rock scared people in the fifties and many radio stations wouldn't play it...until it was commercially viable. Same with Jazz/Blues in early part of the twentieth century. Actually, you could also say the same about New Wave, Techno, Punk, Ska, Heavy Metal, Swing, Latin...just about every popular music form today went through a period where it was supported by a grass-roots movement until it became big enough for record companies to take interest in it.

Personal computing itself went through this in the mid-seventies (when computers were sold in kits and you sodered the damn things together). And many of today's popular operating system went through this as well (for example, I can remember a time when most companies looked upon Windows as a niche market and few wrote programs for it, prefering DOS instead...now, you're hard-pressed to find a anything in both DOS and Windows, including games).

I read the article and I'm still wondering what makes hip-hop and Linux especially unique in terms of comparisons...from my point of view, you could write this article about any type of music and OS...

Re:Hmmm...

[CresentCityRon]

I was going to post the same idea but you did already. And did a good job.

Rap/Linux. Ho Hum. the article wasn't really well thought out. Nice try.

Re:Hmmm...

[yerricde]

you're hard-pressed to find a anything in both DOS and Windows, including games

You haven't been to the Depot lately, have you? Because there you can find a whole bunch of games (like freepuzzlearena).

You've had enough /. haven't you? Isn't it time for

not quite right to compare software to music...

[DrEldarion]

I don't think that this is quite right. Rap music, like all music, is just a fad... something that will go away eventually and only be looked back on with fondness by a select group of people.

Linux, however, is much more than that. It opened up a whole new world for the people that had the patience and knowledge to adopt it. Due to Linux, they didn't have to sit back and take whatever the big software companies threw at them... they could dive right in and tweak to their hearts delight.

The only thing that seems to be similar between the two is that they both produced cult-like followers who shun any other way of doing things ;)

-- Dr. Eldarion --

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[BitwizeGHC]

Twenty years is quite a bit longer than most fads last my friend. That's how long hip-hop has been on the commercial music scene. Unix is only 10 years older! Think about it.

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[DrEldarion]

Maybe so, but do you hear any big band music anymore? No... how about oldies? Do most people nowadays listen to oldies? Maybe your parents do, but rarely do younger people listen to them...

It seems that most music has a shelf life of around 30-50 years and then it's pretty much dead. Some people still listen to it, but not very many.

Linux, on the other hand is here to stay, IMO.

-- Dr. Eldarion --

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[Anonymous Coward]

music has a shelf life of around 30-50 years and then it's pretty much dead

And how much software is still around from then? Don't say something like 'Unix', either, because modern Unices are very different from the 1969 version. Linux is not Unix, but it was influenced by Unix. Much in the same way that modern music was influenced by older stuff. Sure, you don't here Big Band or oldies any more, but you'd be a fool to suggest that they haven't influenced modern music, such as Ska or (what passes for) Rock. That's sort of like Linux.

The music-software comparison is a *good* one.

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[romco]

I disagree Doc..

"Rap music, like all music, is just a fad... something that will go away
eventually and only be looked back on with fondness by a select group of people.

You mean like the games for the Atari,DOS..[ put your favoite old game platform/OS Here]?

"Linux, however, is much more than that. It opened up a whole new world for the people that had the
patience and knowledge to adopt it."

Sounds just like learning to play Jazz....

"Due to Linux, they didn't have to sit back and take whatever the
big software companies threw at them... they could dive right in and tweak to their hearts delight."

Kinda sounds like the same thing musicans say about being able to offer original music over the 'net and not having to go thru a big record company.

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[JDax]

Maybe so, but do you hear any big band music anymore? No... how about oldies? Do most people nowadays listen to oldies? Maybe your parents do, but rarely do younger people listen to them...

Ever heard of the group "Cherry Poppin' Daddies" or the so-called latest greatest thing - "Swing"? &nbsp I'm afraid we're going through a cycle of re-gurgitating music and the "younger people" (I'm not one of them) seem to find this all the rage. &nbsp Add to that the kajillion "remakes" of the "oldies" and you can see that we're rapidly losing our ability to come up with a fresh new style. &nbsp Probably 80% of the so-called rap today is literally taking snippets from the rap of 20 years ago and remixing it... and adding profanity to somehow make it appear different. &nbsp It's pathetic and lacks any creativity.

It seems that most music has a shelf life of around 30-50 years and then it's pretty much dead. Some people still listen to it, but not very many.

Then why is 18th and 19th century European and American-based orchestral or "classical" (as it has been defined) music still around, being played, and the style being copied to generate new works? &nbsp Why is "Jazz" and it's forerunners, "Blues" and "Ragtime" still around (and in the case of Blues) well over a century later?

Linux, on the other hand is here to stay, IMO.

Wishful thinking. &nbsp If it was, we wouldn't progress much would we? &nbsp This is where comparing music (or any of the arts) to technology fails every time.

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[JDax]

Sliding ever so slowly Offtopic...

Dude, that was years ago. It was over in a few months. I realize that the old folks here probably aren't too (to use a phrase you'd be familiar with) 'hip to it, daddy-o'.

Heh heh... now you're trying to guess my age... I'll tell you right now, I ain't from the "hip to it daddy-o" generation... ;-) &nbsp And you can't tell me the dance clubs aren't having "Swing" nites on Sundays either, 'cause they are.

Remakes of the oldies ('classic rock') are done mainly becuase that's what the artists themselves grew up with. Personally, I find the Beatles, Rolling Stones, etc. to be complete bullshit.

I'm not just talking about rock - I'm talking about everything - the groups today are reinventing the wheel and not even doing it with style either. &nbsp Many of these so-called artists weren't even born when the Stones and Beatles were in their heydays and folks like me were mere children... ;-) And Mick Jagger did spark something in the rock world which you sometimes see reflected in the styles of the modern groups (ie., "slummin'"... oh oh.. I may start a Jagger-slamfest now...) &nbsp Lennon wasn't so bad now either... admit it.... hee hee.

Re:not quite right to compare software to music...

[jedrek]

I don't think that this is quite right. Rap music, like all music, is just a fad... something that will go away eventually and only be looked back on with fondness by a select group of people.

Let me hit you over the head with my reality stick. Not all music is a fad. Remember when rock & roll was that crazy new music that was never going to last? Now a very large part of the music industry is rock & roll, and they're calling other forms of music 'fads'. Remember that rap/hip-hop has been around for over 20 years and has been extrememly popular for the last 8 or so.

Let's remember that people are very impervious to change.

Jay

-- polish ccs mirror

More like a chia pet.

[Fisics]

And in a related story....

I really like this press release from Oracle comparing linux to a chia pet. I thought it was kind of funny.

Ben

Actually it's because...

[Alkaiser]

Puff Daddy owns LinuxOne, and he's planning to just steal RedHat, and remix it. Come to think of it Linux's open source-ness would just fit right up his alley.

Re:EXPLODE YOUR TRADING PROFITS!!!!

[mwillis]

EXPLODE your trading profits

Your off-topic spamvertisement is poorly formatted. It certainly does not make me want to give you $750. For reference, Slashdot strips out the BLINK and COLOR tags, you know.

Let's hope this isn't the beginning of a trend. Maybe we need a new moderator tag, Commercial SPAM.

Re:Uhhh

[randombit]

I can see it now. All the hardcore gangsta' rappers touting GnuPG as the only way to keep your dope deals secret. Hells yeah.

'course the govt has been claiming stuff like that is happening all the time now (in yet another effort to put the crypto genie back in the bottle).

Actually, I'd like to see your scenario happen, maybe we could make crypto "cool". I already thinks it's cool but then I'm a geek. :) Maybe one of those "enhanced CDs" (you know, the ones with video and crap like that on them) with GPG for a half-a-dozen different platforms.

Re:Why do all White boys Like Glam Rock?

[blk_jack]

You silly little wiggers need to stop following the herd.

Other Things That Linux Is Like

[Hrunting]

1. The Pet Rock
   That's right. Some dude went out into a field, found a whole bunch of rocks, and started selling them. All of the suddent, he had the number one selling novelty/toy on the market. Of course, now you get laughed at if you have a pet rock.
   
2. Rockets
   That's right, Goddard was laughed at, but when he showed that you could launch anything with highly explosive fuel and not hurt yourself, governments started taking notice and now we have rockets everywhere.
   
3. NASCAR
   People used to think that NASCAR was a joke, something that a bunch of hillbillies watched when grandma wasn't showing them how well she could hit squirrels with pine cones, but then they actually counted the number of hillbillies watching NASCAR and saw that it was way more than the number that was watching NBA basketball and realized it was The Next Big Thing(tm). Now we have Jeff Gordon losing to the Pepsi girl and drivers going to Hardee's in their racecars.
   
4. Dell & Gateway
   
   Hell, no one thought you could make a living selling computers out of your garage, but then everyone realized that it was cheaper and hipper to buy them from hicks than from corporate moneymen and now they have multi-gazillion dollar companies. Who woulda thunkit?
   
5. Slashdot
   
   From humble a humble start as 'Chips N Dips' (or something), people started noticing Slashdot when they reported on things other than Microsoft. Now all of the sudden, Slashdot comments are quoted as insider comments ("Mr. Coward wrote in reply to the judge's findings, 'First post!'") and Slashdot is getting bought out by every major Linux company that exists.
   
6. The USA
   Everyone thought they were a wannabe country, a bunch of freedom fighters who were being brats about paying their taxes, but whoa, they started noticing when America would walk into other countries, pick fights and, holy cow, win! Now everyone recognizes that no matter how small others may think you are, all you have to do is speak softly and carry a big stick and you can put a McDonald's wherever you damn well please.
   
7. Christianity
   People thought these Christian Jews were wackos until they started converting everything under the sun. The world took notice when the largest empire in the world adopted Christianity through its emperor and the rest, well, it's in the Bible somewhere.

Come on people, we can make useless analogies all day long. Linux is a phenomena, and you can compare it to a lot of other phenomena. Trying to say it's like something else, though, takes away a little bit from the true magic of what happened in this specific instance and begins a group down the road of trying to develop in a manner similar to some other reference, which takes away from the spontaneity of what may happen and may serve to derail the power of the change.

The development of Linux is like the development of Linux. Enjoy the ride; don't analyze it.
Everything big once started out small

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[CresentCityRon]

This was more entertaining than the original article. You should take it further and submit it to Salon or something.

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[Elbereth]

That post was hilarious.

I can't believe it got moderated as insightful. It wasn't insightful; it was funny.

Hardly anything truly big started out as something small. Look at Microsoft. Do you think that Microsoft started out small? Think again. Bill Gates was a millionaire before he even incorporated Microsoft. His dad was hugely rich and didn't mind funding Bill's corporate ventures.

Look at many of the richest men in this country. Do you think they are self-made men? 90% of them were millionaires to start with. When a millionaire starts a corporation, it attracts a lot of venture capitalists. Lots of venture capitalists means lots of interest by the big boys in Wall Street and/or the Silicon Valley. Lots of interest equates to a pretty damn big chance of making it to the Forbes 500.

Damn be so naive. :)

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[Elbereth]

err, insert a *dont* in the last sentence.

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[pen]

Yep. For example, Jeff Bezos' father gave little Jeffy $30,000 to "play around with". Does anyone really think that a large company can be started with a $10/mo hosting account and a dedicated person or two?

--

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[0xdeadbeef]

Oh, do you also think the popularity of rap music proves that there is a lot of inner city trash in this country?

At least stock car racing doesn't advocate the killing of cops, the abuse of women, and the virtues of being alpha male in a pack of violent thugs.

Not that I watch NASCAR or anything, but you've got to at least respect something that began as a side hobby for people who customized their sports cars for smuggling alchohol into regions with asinine blue laws.

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[forii]

Hardly anything truly big started out as something small.

apple: started in a garage
yahoo: started in grad school
dell: started in a dorm room

just to mention three tech companies...

Re:Other Things That Linux Is Like

[0xdeadbeef]

And you have been counter-trolled, have a nice day.

Make em say ughhhhhhhh.

[Master Switch]

How do you want it?
Rolin in my six fo, kickin it wit da boyz, we'z be in yo hood. I gotsa a linux distro in my lap, to take care o dat.

Thug programas gotsta die, no needs to ask why. I'z be setin UID 0, don't try to be a hero. Everyone drop yo niceness, i'm takin control of dis bitch.

Gotsta give props to da thugz from da way east side. Put ya hands in da air for Linus, Alan, Matti, Dave, Werner, and all da crew, wez be down wit you.

Peace to all my hommies, pour an ounce to dis.

-Wit much thugz luv, Mizaster Swizitch.

Yo

[Joe Groff]

Yo yo yo, I'm Billy G
And everyone wants a piece of me
Web-side, E-side, all's my land
Make sure no fucka get no hand
If some fucka wanna fuck with me
I'll smash them through my WebTV

And when the competition starts to rock
I say go suck my cock
And I buy up all their stock

So don't no fucka fuck with me
O I fuck your computer with a BSoD
I pimp out all those hippie LUGs
If they dare fuck my 65,000 bugs
You know you want a piece of me
'Cuz I'm the G
Of all technology

(In the spirit of open-source, I'll leave it to y'all to finish the rap :)

...

[prodeje]

Have you ever met a black person? Seriously.

is he saying the yopy from samsung ....

[gimpboy]

runs mobile linux or is he saying its uses a transmeta?

Linux is heading into the mobile market full steam with Transmeta developing Mobile Linux and devices like the Samsung YOPY PDA being created to run it.

I thought it used and strongarm processor and it was running arm-linux? is arm-linux a derivative of mobile linux? i dont think this it is since arm linux has been out for quite a while?


john

We could learn something from Hip Hop

[Mononoke]

Crack cocaine profits are a great source of start-up funding.

Imagine a BOFH with a posse.

40oz MtnDew & Jolt

Quality doesn't matter, as the end-users have no taste anyway.

(Oops, that last one belongs to M$. Sorry)

--

Re:We could learn something from Hip Hop

[Mononoke]

Exactly what did I say that was racist in any way?

You're the one who assumed racism was a part of my comments.

There are people of all races (etc.) doing crack and/or doing hip hop. (Yes, you haven't lived until you've heard Japanese hip hop.)

Now then, how soon will you be done being racist?

--

Re:We could learn something from Hip Hop

[linuxmop]

Come again? Yes there are black people who smoke crack and black people involved in hip hop culture. There are also white people who smoke crack and are involved in the hip hop culture. What's your point?

Re:i got first!

[um... Lucas]

Actually, no. Mine was with IE :P

keepin' linux real

[rnd()]

How would the average person respond
if you replaced their entire music
collection with rap music?

Probably about the same way they would
respond if you fdisked their hard drive
and installed linux.

Despite the fact that rap music has become
at least as commercialized as other types
of music, the culture that created rap music
is still heavily margainalized in society.

Chris Rock made a good point about the
margainalization of black culture. He said
something like, "yes, I make a lot of money doing
what I do, but how many white people out there
would trade places with me?

The question to be asked about linux is,
while there are a lot of people willing to
invest in a heavily-hyped company like Redhat,
how many of those people would install
linux on their computer?

Linux, like rap in its early days, needs glitz
to survive. I remember wondering why MC Hammer
decided to drop the MC from his name. I hope
we don't see companies like Redhat and VA
dropping linux from theirs.

Re:keepin' linux real

[swordgeek]

How would the average person respond if you replaced their entire music collection with rap music?

<p>Probably about the same way they would respond if you fdisked their hard drive and installed linux."</i>

<p>Speaking as someone who lives and breathes music FAR more than computers (and as a full time Unix admin, that's saying a lot), I would respond with the following:

2) fdisk my hard drive and install linux, I'll ask for the backup tapes.{*}

1) Replace my music collection with rap, I'll bludgeon you with a tire iron.

{*} If no backup tape, then see #1.

Re:keepin' linux real

[unitron]

I think Slashdot expects uppercase letters in between the "less than" and "greater than" birdmouths.

Re:keepin' linux real

[Epi-man]

MC Hammer dropped the MC because McDonalds didn't like it and sued, if memory serves me correctly.

Signal11 is a *racist*

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, that's just offensive. I realize that you have no idea what the hell people of African descent sound like, nor have you probably ever left the protective womb of your lilly-white suburbs, but please try not to sound like such a fucking Jim Crow klan member, ok?

Just because Slashdot is 99% white boy doesn't mean you can spew whatever shit you want.

Re:Signal11 is a *racist*

[medicthree]

I don't think Signal11 was trying to emulate the speech of "people of African descent." The story wasn't "open source likened to culture of African Americans." The story was about rap music. Like it or not, there many many examples that back up the stereotype of "rap speak." To say that his emulation of "rap speak" is racist is ridiculous. Where did he ever mention anyone of African descent? Where die he mention race at all? If anyone is racist it's you: you're the one bringing race into this forum, you're the one telling him he's in a "protective womb of [his] lilly-white suburbs," you're the one saying he sounds like a "f*king Jim Crow klan member," and you're the one calling him (or the slashdot community) "white boy."

His post may have been offensive to you, but that doesn't mean it was "racist." Additionally, I highly doubt his post was written with intentions to offend anyone or to be racist. Isn't intention really what's important? Maybe your response to him could have been much more valuable to him and the community at large had you phrased it in less offensive terms yourself, and if you had described to him why it was offensive and why it was of questionable taste / content without flaming him.

Re:Signal11 is a *racist*

[medicthree]

Rap music is inherently tied to the culture of 'African Americans'.

This may be the case, but it still doesn't change the fact that the post was intended as a parody of the speech used by rappers, and not by "people of African descent" as a whole. The vast majority of ice hockey players are caucasian. Despite that, I wouldn't find it racist if a black person were to parody stereotypical speech of hockey players (if such a thing existed). I may find it ignorant, foolish, or offensive, but I certainly wouldn't find it racist. Just because the vast majority of rappers happen to be black doesn't make it necessarily racist for him to parody rappers in general.

Then WTF was he doing? Trying to be funny? Did you find it funny? I think he knew damn well what he was doing.

Actually, you've hit the nail right on the head. I'm positive he was trying to be funny. I don't think he had any racist intentions whatsoever.

Re:Signal11 is a *racist*

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because the vast majority of rappers happen to be black doesn't make it necessarily racist for him to parody rappers in general. Parodies can be funny when the author actually has a clue about the subject matter. Hip Hop is not only music but a culture. I must say I'm not surprised by any of these responses in a predominately caucasiod forum. White folks have always downplayed black culture until they see the profit potential. Just like the early soul and blues artists inspired your Rock N' Roll. Most of you don't like rap music because you just can't relate...it is the voice of a generation (well now a couple of generations) and it will be around long after you are all jocking the "next linux" Truthfully, the rap stuff that you hear on your radio is only 1 part of Hip Hop, the part that sells to young white kids. People forget that what you hear on the radio is what the majority of the people want to hear and the last time I checked whites buy 72% of all music.

Re:Signal11 is a *racist*

[Signal 11]

I must say I'm not surprised by any of these responses in a predominately caucasiod forum.

And how, exactly, did you determine that we're all white? This is a text-only forum.. which is entirely color-blind.

White folks have always downplayed black culture until they see the profit potential.

You call me a racist and then you go on to stereotype 'white folks'. Hello?

Most of you don't like rap music because you just can't relate...

That's a convenient life-line to use - it's akin to saying that since I don't believe in what you believe in I'm stupid. Is it possible that I simply have different tastes? It is also not possible that rap is a medium instead of a message? People can rap about road rage, or rap about computers, or make rap about violence.. none of that is inherently racist.. and to say that it is is at best ignorant, and at worst a willful misrepresentation of the facts.

People forget that what you hear on the radio is what the majority of the people

*cough* 23 radio stations in my area. Most of them aren't rap.

I think the real issue is that you don't like me instead of my posts. I notice you don't even post with a real name. Better to attack someone anonymously and avoid retribution, right? "Keep criticism away from me" seems to be your rallying cry. What happened to being judged on what you said rather than who you are? Has slashdot deteriorated to the point that people like you are taken seriously?

Re:Signal11 is a *racist*

[medicthree]

Okay, so basically you'd agree that the original charges of Signal 11 being a "*racist*" were off base. Or, at least, you'd have to, since nothing in this last post of yours even attempts to rebut my arguments against the charges of racism. The last post of yours may be an indictment against "causcasoid" culture--something which I really have no interest in debating on slashdot, for want of anything productive coming of it, and because I know that people here tend to be much more philodoxical than philosophical--but says nothing about the actions of Signal 11. The only reason I responded to the original flame--and calling someone a racist is certainly a flame--is because I felt that it was totally unwarranted.

Re:Signal11 is a *racist*

[bahamuut]

"You know sometimes I really wonder what things would be like if the slave trade had never occurred. The U.S and Carribean would be far far different. But would the situation still be the same in Africa?"

-Your statement was rather tasteless and tactless, but yet you bring up a point. True the US and Carribean would be different--

-underdeveloped since the slaves built much of the infrastructure in these countries,

-undercultured-- the people of african decent who came over in the slave trade have in many ways formed the basis of much of american culture through food, music, art, and literature .

-understaffed -- well massa wasn't getting off his fat ass to pick the f****'n cotton

-unwealthy -- see "understaffed"

True Africa has it's own set of problems, but to me it looks as if you've read a fucking pamphlet and decided that you have enough info to make an intelligent decision on what's really going on in ALL parts of Africa. SURVEY SAYS--- bzzz!!! Oh I'm sorry anonymous, but that's the wrong fucking answer! shoulda just kept your mouth shut eh? coulda walked out with some dignity, but you just had to open your ignorance-infested mouth. The fact of the matter is that Africa first of all is a CONTINENT. there are a lot (over 45) different countries in Africa. It's not the fucking states, and yeah, there's a lot of baaaad shit happening over there. but it's still one of the most beautiful continents in the world with more mysteries and keys to all of our joint pasts than any other place in the world. Our very own country is Disease ridden (Greed, HIV, Tuberculosis) war ridden ( gang warfare, drug wars, political warfare) famine ridden( the famine of ignorance that threatans to grasp this country by the balls if it already hasn't) and yes! we evan have warlords who kill their own population on a daily basis for money and power. Our little girls practice self-mutilation by exposing themselves to the mutilated images of self that our society chooses to portray (overly -skinny models, rampant promiscuity as a norm, looks over intelligence) and buy whole-heartedly into these ideals as a norm. No knife is involved, but I believe that the scars run deeper.

--Do not curse the splint in another man's eye without removing the log from your own...

rebellion

[MicroBerto]

the main similarity that I see is rebellion. I know many linux users who do just in rebellion to Microsoft/closed source/satan/whatever. Rap and hip-hop music is obviously very rebellious as well, and that doesn't need to be argued. Hip-hop is a quick, jumpy powerful music, just like the bleeding-edge, quick, and powerful linux. Very cool!

Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net) - AOL IM: MicroBerto

grand masta Linux

[Money__]

The picture Phat dady Linux is here: http://www.twomobile.com/images/new_032400_linux_r apper_large.jpg
_________________________

Re:Rap sucks

[MicroBerto]

you sound so sure. You cannot prove this.

Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net) - AOL IM: MicroBerto

Re:EXPLODE YOUR TRADING PROFITS!!!!

[yerricde]

Maybe we need a new moderator tag, Commercial SPAM.

I've seen this s#t in other gro^H^H^Hdiscussions. But don't call it SPAM; it might be confused with luncheon meat. Call it spam.

This site won't spam:

Re:CALLING ALL TROLLS!

[MicroBerto]

seriously?
/me ducks and runs...

Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net) - AOL IM: MicroBerto

you're an idiot

[AldousHuxley]

have you ever listened to rap?
that's how it sounds

Linux = Punk Rock?

[Vic]

Linux could probably be compared to just about any form of music. Here's why Linux is Punk Rock:

• DIY (Do It Yourself) attitude
• The source code (3 chords) is available to be used by anyone
• Selling out and doing it only for the money is frowned upon
• Many Linux geeks and punks dress funny
• Started out with a small grass-roots community of people helping each other out, but has ballooned (more than once) into massive corporate acceptance
  

Cheers,
Vic

Linux take over M$?

[yerricde]

You can get statistics from Netcraft.

And then you can download

Re:Why do all White boys Like Glam Rock?

[yerricde]

Marilyn Manson is glam rock too. Have you heard Mechanical Animals? I like to pop it into my GNU/Linux box every once in a while.

D'oh

[urgle]

I know that. It was sarcasm!

What a difference a few years makes.

[Lord Kano]

With Rap music, bsck in the 1990s Geffen records refused to distribute music made by the Geto Boys because of the "racism" that Geffen felt was expressed in that music. This is the SAME company that was distributing Guns N Roses music. You know those "Police and niggers" stay out of my way guys... But Guns N Roses albums sold millions so I guess Geffen was able to overlook their shortcomings.

After NWA went platinum in a week with their second album, and Ice-T made a gazillion dollars for the record & movie companies with his OG album/New Jack City promotion.

Linux started out as a week-end project for Linus and a few scattered hackers around the world about 10 years ago. Now it's a global contender in the server OS market. Microsoft is actually paying people to tune their OS to be faster just because of an upstart free OS coded by hackers in their spare time.

LK

Re:What a difference a few years makes.

[Lord Kano]

Lenny is half-black, and so is slash. Lenny's mother was the black lady who was married to the white guy. (Helen Willis) What does that matter anyway? "Police and niggers stay out of my way" pretty much speaks for itself.

LK

Re:Why do all White boys Like Glam Rock?

[yerricde]

Actually, wouldn't a good audio compression system reduce noise to "central frequency + bandwidth"? I know speech compression systems do.

Sounds like you're the idiot..

[prodeje]

Ever listened to Common? How about the Roots? Or the Coup? What about De La Soul? The list goes on.

None of these artists create music which fits your racist generalization. Most of the rap which has the elements shown in Signal 11's post is based on life experience. Maybe if you took a fair look at what you're attacking, you would begin to understand it.

If you don't like an art form, no-one is forcing you to listen to. But making negative stereotypes just shows your ignorance and immaturity.

Re:Sounds like you're the idiot..

[Tungz10]

You dumbass, that's exactly why he wasn't talking about 'african americans', he was talking about rappers.

I thought it was funny, so shut the fuck up.

Re:Sounds like you're the idiot..

[prodeje]

How about using an ounce of common sense? Rap is an art form which is primarily based around African American culture. By supporting Signal 11's post, which made racist generalizations, he was attacking those who make up rap music (90% blacks).

Re:Sounds like you're the idiot..

[forii]

Signal 11's post never made a single racist generalization. Rap is known for having a certain tone of speech, and Signal 11's post was using this tone in his parody.

If I make a parody of Country music in a southern twang, talking about how My wife left me and took my dog, and how much I miss that dog, then I am not making racist generalizations about white southerners, but about a typical subject matter of a country song.

Re:Sounds like you're the idiot..

[Skald]

Ever listened to Onyx? How about Redman? Or Tupac? What about Ice T?

All of these artists create music which fits Signal 11's generalization, which hasn't got a damned thing to do with race. And generally speaking, I like it. Not as much as I like the Beatles, or Otis Redding, or Bach, for that matter, but it's good stuff.

Signal 11's post was not an attack. It was humor, as much at ESR's expense as anyone's.

Na.

If you don't know this is Dr. Skald... Ain't shit changed motherfucka... pack your own heat... supply your own ammo, hacka...

Re:Sounds like you're the idiot..

[bahamuut]

--"if you curse a hair on your head, you curse yourself" and this holds true in this case as well. if you make generalizations about a subject and it only applies to a small percentage of a population, then you are inadvertantly making generalizations about the group of people who participate. I'm not really mad at the parody(if that's what it was supposed to be) I'm just mad at how ignorant it was. at least if you make a parody, make it good.

Re:Sounds like you're the idiot..

[Tungz10]

If 90% of rappers are African American, it does NOT mean that 90% of African Americans are rappers.

Even if ALL rappers are African American, which you are implying, and which IS a racist generalization...then the original post was still only referring to a small percentage of that group which is a small percentage of the population.

(And by "the population", I suppose you mean America, because America represents the whole world.)

Re:Spammers die!!

[yerricde]

And you're eating up bandwidth we're paying for. We didn't pay for your fscking spam.

Re:No, Linux is more like techno/rave

[Bowie J Poag]

Wrong. The Chemical Brothers invented techno in 1994. And they're English, not European.

Bowie J. Poag

I've been to Netcraft

[mbpark]

Netcraft is a very good source.

However, it does not provide metrics for counting the very large amount of servers not accessible from the Internet. For example, it counts our main web server, running Apache/Linux. However, it does not count the numerous development servers that we run on and off-site that run Linux, NT, and FreeBSD. It also does not count the intranet servers people run, or mail servers.

Netcraft is a good source for seeing what is directly connected to the Internet. However, it does not provide the statistics that show servers in use at companies that either:

a. Are connected to the Internet and run web servers at ports other than 80 and not on 80.

b. Are not connected to the Internet directly.

c. Are used as directly-connected Internet servers that function in another capacity, such as a firewall, proxy server, mail server, or other method that does not provide statistics about what the underlying OS is.

When there is a metric for that, I'll like it more than Netcraft.

Re:No, Linux is more like techno/rave

[Elbereth]

You know, that "silly little white boy" shtick is getting pretty old. It was funny the first time. I might have smiled the second or third time I saw it. But it's just got to go now.

The comparison is weak

[TheInternet]

Just like Linux, rap music was something that scared corporations until it was big enough to be profitable

The same could be said about GUIs, the internet, computer games, computers themselves -- or virtually any other major breakthrough in the industry. As someone else noted, the situation that hip hop is in is by no means unique either. (posting by punkass):

Okay, rock scared people in the fifties and many radio stations wouldn't play it...until it was commercially viable. Same with Jazz/Blues in early part of the twentieth century. Actually, you could also say the same about New Wave, Techno, Punk, Ska, Heavy Metal, Swing, Latin...just about every popular music form today went through a period where it was supported by a grass-roots movement until it became big enough for record companies to take interest in it.

I can understand how an individual would like to tie two things together that [s]he is interested in, but this is kind of stretching it. I find it particularly ironic that so much hip hop music revolves around amounts of money, and that's sort of the opposite (or at least a secondary) goal of open source.

- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson

Ugh! *NO* WAY!

[Randy Rathbun]

First, I am a huge punk fan. But remember, the Ramones came up with punk because they were not good enough to play real music! They tried. They tried to do Beach Boys and decided they really sucked at it. But they wanted to play. So they did. Bingo! Punk was born.

I thought this too when I started to read the article.. that Linux is more like the early days of punk, and in a lot of ways it is, as you pointed out. Nobody gives a shit if it does not look pretty (and as the line in Rock 'n Roll High School goes, "They are ugly. Ugly, ugly, people.") but if it works then that is all that matters. Punk certainly does that.

It is very anti-establishment. Bob Young has said it. Red Hat's competition is not the other Linux companies. It is Microsoft. In the minds of corporate america, what is more anti-establishment than refusing to use a Microsoft Windows product? I can't think of anything.

So, taking all things into account, you are right. However, like I said, punk was started because the guys could not play worth a crap. The Linux code I have seen is brilliant.

Brilliant *cough* Linux code

[Anonymous Coward]

So, taking all things into account, you are right. However, like I said, punk was started because the guys could not play worth a crap. The Linux code I have seen is brilliant.

Then you haven't seen much Linux code. The VAST majority of the code is absolute uncommented crap. It gets points for (usually) working, but by no stretch of the imagination is Linux developed to professional standards.

Re:ah yeah

[datazone]

its biggie
not jiggy

Taking off an a tangent...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is my first post in this thread (so I'm not who you addressed).

*I* think African-American is an overly PC term. If Charlize Theron (South African) was to have a child with an American... it would be an African-American. If the father was white, then the child in all probability would be too. If that child went out in public saying it was an "African-Amercian", then that child would probably be made fun of and/or beaten up. Egypt is an Africa, but most people wouldn't refer to an Egyptian-American as an African-American if they saw them in North America.

When someone says "African-American", they mean "black". What's wrong with calling someone black? It's not meant to be offensive, and who would take it to be so? White people are called "white people" all the time. It's not derogatory in any way, unless you are offended to be called white. (why would you be? Why would a black person be offended if they were called black?)

Not all black people can trace their roots back to Africa, can they? Disregarding the time when everything was one big continent, that is. Because if we didn't disregard that, then MOST people would then be African-American/Canadian/etc regardless of the colour of their skin. Can Australian aboriginees trace their roots back to Africa? (I don't know). I'm sure that not all black people can trace their ancestry back to Africa. But in America/Canada, we call anyone who is black an African-American/Canadian.

Anyway, this has been my rant on the term "African-Amercian". I think it's a far too PC a thing to say - people shouldn't be offended to be called what they ARE.

Re:Taking off an a tangent...

[superyooser]

3 of the 4 true African Americans (of African descent) I have known are WHITE!

On the census, would they say they are "White" or "African American"? Never occurred to them that someone could be both!

a little OT, but oh well

[CmdrPinkTaco]

...and at one time, Disco (which is alive and well and renamed to "House" and "Club" music)

hmm....Disco == House. I only partially agree with that. While the "lifestyle" of Disco and the "heart and soul" of Disco is being repeated through the current trend of "House" the music is not the same. While some may argue that the scene is what makes the music, I personally find that it is the music that makes the scene. I cannot stand Disco, but I (as a wannabe DJ) will spin all of the house tunes that I can at a good party. The only time that I appreciate a good disco song is when I can layer it in with a deep house beat, drown out the disco feel and give it a new life in the "Essence of House."
Your point is well taken, and it is definately arguable, but I for one am only going to partially agree with it.

I am also aware that the above quoted statement was not the essence of your post, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the current state of house. Long live TRANCE
--------------------------------------------

Re:a little OT, but oh well

[JDax]

hmm....Disco == House. I only partially agree with that. While the "lifestyle" of Disco and the "heart and soul" of Disco is being repeated through the current trend of "House" the music is not the same.

Slowly sliding Offtopic here but Disco =! House but is closer to Club. &nbsp Disco was always considered (at least by me) as basically "dance music" (I'm not talking about the knock-off stuff that started appearing near the end of the era) - something that people went to clubs for and dressed up for - which you still see today, but they're playing House and Club and alot of Techno (-funk, that is).

I DJ'd on the radio station at my college for 3 years back at the tail end of the Disco days and got to experience the changeover and the interweaving of music styles... &nbsp If you play some vintage Madonna or even good 'ole KC & the Sunshine Band or EW&F, much of that can still stand on its own really. &nbsp If you remove the horn sections, it doesn't date itself as much. &nbsp Kindof interesting actually...

Re:a little OT, but oh well

[unitron]

Earth, Wind and Fire without a horn section? You are unwell.

Re:a little OT, but oh well

[JDax]

Earth, Wind and Fire without a horn section? You are unwell.

Heeeeeheeeheeeheeeeheee... &nbsp Not unwell - that was posted late at night... &nbsp ;-) &nbsp And I guess I wasn't thinking about EW&F (cause almost their entire complement of instruments are horns...). &nbsp Thinking mainly of KC. &nbsp heh heh.

Hip Hop/L:inux Challenge Convention

[MadProfessor]

Seems like a lot of you guys are kinda scared by hip hop, having to revert to stereotypes and humor, instead of perhaps discussing something that could be somewhat interesting to talk about.
Lots of people make fun of the crap they see on MTV. It should be made fun of, because it's soulless and empty, with nothing new to say. It's pop hip hop, boring and uninteresting.
Hip hop (in its truest form) is about self expression, about doing _your_ thing, and adding your voice to a community of creativity. Puff Daddy and all the other shit you laugh about is POP MUSIC. My grandmother could display more artistic creativity than him. But there are many artists who display originality, even poetry in their rapping. An oppressed people created hip hop, as a way to gain control over their situation and reenfranchise themselves. Sounds kinda like linux...
The thing is that true hip hop and linux are about the individual and gaining power back over your situation. Rapping on the corner about racism in the face of society, or coding late at night in the face of monolithic software companies. Hip hop is about giving a voice to those who had none. Linux lets people have a voice and a choice.
In the end, any argument for or against is kinda mute. It's kinda silly to compare an OS culture to a sub-culture, but it might make for some interesting discussion. Maybe think next time before you write some ignorant shit about hip hop not being music. I'm glad I never got into glam rock, and instead found hip hop (and later techno).

Thanks for reading this rant...

Re:Hip Hop/L:inux Challenge Convention

[swordgeek]

"Hey man puff daddy might be crap but he's got a great girlfriend with excellent tits and the ass of a champion."

Hey, perfect description of the current state of Rap/hip-hop! :-)

"For the sake of **humanity** Jennifer Lopez's body must be displayed naked on the Internet."

Um, I can't argue with this. Sorry.

Re:No, Linux is more like techno/rave

[JDax]

Wrong. The Chemical Brothers invented techno in 1994. And they're English, not European.

You mean they aren't continentals???? &nbsp heh heh &nbsp ;-)

Let's all give a big thanks to Kraftwerk - Techno geniuses.

Makes sense

[Nima]

Think about.. it thiers east coast(RedHat Linux) West Coast(Turbo Linux) , Dirty South(Debian), and of course the best old school(slack) hahha Im just kidding guys..... but the comparison is one that sorta works..

this post has brought up an interesting tangent...

[Fanolex]

just as there are complaints over the geek community being mostly guys...

it seems to be mostly pretensious white guys that only and narrow-mindly listen to rock that, while knowing nothing about rap, fee free to spit out rhetoric about it.

Re:RAP? is NOT music

[Nima]

not that I am some sorta rappin master..but have u ever tried rapping ? its not very easy..

heres my attempt..

*background music*
Linux is the best..
everything else are pests..

see my point I suck at it.....it aint easy..

u dont have to likem but give them SOME respect

the ramones did not invent punk...

[conform]

... and even if one were to suppose that they were the first punk band (which they unequivocably weren't), punk music isn't as simple as any punk band you care to name. there were plenty of punk bands that new how to play their instruments.

I'll be missing You - Tribute to my HD

[Shadukar]

by Puff Shadukar,

Seems like yesterday we used to travel the data flow,
I controled the the info you loved to show
so far from hanging up,
my linux box, i got to know that
the system aint the same it used to be
megabytes cant express what you meant to me
even though you're gone, we're still a team
getting an upgrade to to fullfill out dreams
In the future i cant wait to see
if you'll give up any of my data back to me
remenesce some time about the night you crashed
my friend
i try to block it out, but you wont read again
when its real data its hard to conceal
cant imagine all the pain i feel
its kinda hard with you not around
knowing you're in the case, disks not spining 'round, watching me while i safe $ for a new hd, every day i save $ for a new.
Till the day data flows again,
in the case is where i keep you friend,
Memmory gives me stength to belive
but i need a HD for boot to proceede
My thoughts of bakup, reality cant defy,
wish i could turn back the hands of time
if only i could give you half a spin
i know you're still having processes even after crash.

Chorus,

Every jet u oress
every dusj u read
every file i save
every time i pray
every fsck i do,
I'll be missing you

Thinking of the day
when you crashed away
what a storage to take
what a disk to break
i'll be missing you
tux please tell my why...

History of techno (uh, way offtopic)

[forii]

The Chemical Brothers invented techno in 1994. And they're English, not European.

Actually, techno is American, invented in the early '80s. And actually, it evolved from Disco. When disco "died", it actually just disappeared from the mainstream culture, but didn't actually die completely. There were many places where disco was still popular, namely gay clubs.

During this time, a few DJs/producers began to play around with the dance-music feel of disco, and combining it with the new drum machines that were making their appearance at the time (which also, incidentally, encouraged the development of rap music, which used the beats as well). The gay clubs of detroit were, basically, the incubator where the first techno was developed. This was around '83 or 84 I think.

Because of where it was played, though, techno was not destined to break out in the US. Instead, mainstream clubs in England began to play techno, and eventually began to create their own. Techno evolved into more of the "rave" form that we know nowadays, and exploded during '86 into what the english called their "Summer of Love", which was a huge bash of massive festival-raves, copious and freely available hallucinogens, and the first real introduction of techno to the Mainstream.

After this, techno began to make its way back to where it originated: the USA. It took several years, but in 1991 the first techno-explosion occured in the US. This first incarnation of techno in the US was strongly associated with Hippie culture (probably due to the mutual association with drugs), and then promptly faded from the mainstream in 1993.

Techno then began to change again, getting away from the cheesy anthems of old (James Brown is Dead, Dominator, etc.), and, led by groups like Orbital, what is now known as "trance" began to appear. in 1994, the only music that was heard at raves was trance (sorta like today :) ), but then the genre began to expand, and there was another explosion of new music, with the introduction of Jungle, Big Beat (thank the Chemical Brothers (previously known as the Dust Brothers) for that), drum 'n bass, and other types.

1997 was the beginning of the Mainstream's latest fascination with techno. Groups like Prodigy and the Chemical Bros. became popular, Robert Miles' song "Children" hit the #1 spot all around the world, and many people were predicting that techno was going to be "the next big thing". Thankfully, that never happened, and things have died down without the Mainstream music industry appropriating the techno scene (certain madonna and cher songs not withstanding).

And no, I think that linux is nothing like techno! :)

Re:History of techno (uh, way offtopic)

[JDax]

Actually, techno is American, invented in the early '80s. And actually, it evolved from Disco. When disco "died", it actually just disappeared from the mainstream culture, but didn't actually die completely. There were many places where disco was still popular, namely gay clubs.

Whoooo boy. &nbsp Not correct. &nbsp You can technically take Techno back to the invention of the electric keyboard/synthesizer in the 50s (does Sun Ra and his Arkestra ring a bell.... nahhhh, guess not... although Sun was doin' big band and be bop as his main paying job), but I digress. &nbsp Let's just say it's been out for awhile (eg. 70s groups like Parliment & its various iterations used the "funk" version of it in the early-mid 70s).

During this time, a few DJs/producers began to play around with the dance-music feel of disco, and combining it with the new drum machines that were making their appearance at the time (which also, incidentally, encouraged the development of rap music, which used the beats as well). The gay clubs of detroit were, basically, the incubator where the first techno was developed. This was around '83 or 84 I think.

Uh... not quite. &nbsp As myself and previous posters have noted, rap has been out a long time. &nbsp I guess you're thinking about the use of the drum machines by groups like Afrika Bambatta and the Soul Sonic Force or something? &nbsp DJs, who were the first rappers, didn't need a drum machine - they used their 2 turntables and a mixer (plus a tape recorder to capture the moment). &nbsp The rap then was obviously not on the radio (although a few local stations might sneek a premix tape on in the wee hours of the morning) or distributed by big record producers. &nbsp It wasn't until the Sugar Hill Gang's OVERPLAYED "Rapper's Delight" came out when suddenly rap was "discovered" (sigh). &nbsp And when you say '83 or '84, Techno-pop groups like Kraftwerk (with their jammin' song "Numbers") had been out for some time.

I won't speak for what happened in Europe during the 80s ' but:

After this, techno began to make its way back to where it originated: the USA.

As far as I know, it never left. &nbsp It was still being played in the clubs.

It took several years, but in 1991 the first techno-explosion occured in the US. This first incarnation of techno in the US was strongly associated with Hippie culture (probably due to the mutual association with drugs),

Huh??

and then promptly faded from the mainstream in 1993.

Sigh...

Re:History of techno (uh, way offtopic)

[forii]

Whoooo boy. Not correct. You can technically take Techno back to the invention of the electric keyboard/synthesizer in the 50s

I'm not talking about "electronic music", I'm talking about techno. While kraftwerk, brian eno, john cage, and many others were making music with electronic instruments for a long time (Autobahn was out in '73 I believe), they shouldn't be considered the source of today's techno scene. While the instruments, and even the sounds, may be similar, there is no straight progression from the experimental electronic artists of the 70s (and other funk oriented bands). The later artists may have been influenced (although that's always hard to say), but the fact is that techno has always been associated with dance music, which is very different from what groups like Y.M.O., and Kraftwerk played.

DJs, who were the first rappers, didn't need a drum machine - they used their 2 turntables and a mixer

You're correct, however, I was not claiming that the drum machine created rap music, but merely that it encouraged the development. Prior to the drum machine, as you point out, rappers used the proverbial "two turntables and a microphone". However, this inherently limited the rappers to whatever records they could get their hands on. The advent of the drum machine meant that, rather than having to use someone else's records, they could lay their own beats down. Drum machines didn't create rap music, but they allowed it to grow much faster than it might have otherwise.

After this, techno began to make its way back to where it originated: the USA.

As far as I know, it never left. It was still being played in the clubs.

Note that I'm talking about progression of music development, and not about where it was being played. The big difference is that, in the early 80s, most techno producers were located in the US (and most of them in Detroit), but after a few years most producers were located across the atlantic. While the American clubs were still playing the music, the source of the records had changed.

Re:History of techno (uh, way offtopic)

[JDax]

I'm not talking about "electronic music", I'm talking about techno.

I'm not talking about electronic music either.

While kraftwerk, brian eno, john cage, and many others were making music with electronic instruments for a long time (Autobahn was out in '73 I believe), they shouldn't be considered the source of today's techno scene. While the instruments, and even the sounds, may be similar, there is no straight progression from the experimental electronic artists of the 70s (and other funk oriented bands).

To many on the east coast of the U.S., "techno" back then, was defined not just by the sound or use of certain instruments like synthesizers or drum machines, but by the subject matter or "themes" of the music and lyrics - eg., "computer or technology oriented" (like Kraftwerk became) or "space oriented", such as the music created by Parliment Funkadelic and their "Mothership" and "Sir Nose Devoidofunk" series of albums and songs...

The later artists may have been influenced (although that's always hard to say), but the fact is that techno has always been associated with dance music, which is very different from what groups like Y.M.O., and Kraftwerk played.

I don't know about what you experienced, but every club (and party in college) that I went to played (and mixed) songs (for 45 minutes at a pop at times) by groups like Kraftwerk - FOR *dancing*, eg., songs like "Numbers" and "Electric Cafe". &nbsp We used to call these parties "sweatbox affairs" and you'd often here songs by YES, et al...;-)

Prior to the drum machine, as you point out, rappers used the proverbial "two turntables and a microphone". However, this inherently limited the rappers to whatever records they could get their hands on. The advent of the drum machine meant that, rather than having to use someone else's records, they could lay their own beats down. Drum machines didn't create rap music, but they allowed it to grow much faster than it might have otherwise.

I don't know what part of the country you live in (although you mention Detroit a number of times, but that may not be your origin) but on the east coast, records, including the "imports" (ie., from Europe), were NOT hard to come by - especially by those who lived in or near New York City (the home of the 99cent "second hands"). &nbsp The increased use of a drum machine occurred after the Sugar Hill Gang were sued by Chic for blatantly re-using Chic's song "Good Times", in its entirety, in their song "Rapper's Delight" - all without prior permission or even offering up their proceeds to Chic from their record sales. &nbsp That resulted in the enforcement of the current law that says something like up to 8 notes of a copyrighted song can be sampled before permission must be sought, etc. &nbsp Among the DJ culture, scratching and mixing (without extra instruments) were top priority (even by the newcomers) and in fact, the groups expanded during the early 80s with the so-called "human beat boxes" (basically the a cappella equivalent to creating instrument-less music) - all in avoidance of real instruments. &nbsp In fact, since you mention "drum machines", I recall entire collections (because I still have some) of RECORDS that were created SPECIFICALLY of "Beats", ie., the "song titles" were "120 bpm", "70 bpm", etc. &nbsp Thus the DJ had no need for a drum machine - he pulled out his 12" "Beats" record, picked a cut similar in speed to the current playing song, adjusted the turntable pitch, and away he went.

The thing here with DJing and rapping in general, was ego. &nbsp Any idiot can program a drum machine, but to be able to cut and scratch, on the fly, is what brought fame and fortune. &nbsp Basically, the move to add instruments to the mix had to do with COPYRIGHT infringment and lawsuits and had NOTHING to do with the so-called "expansion of rap".

Note that I'm talking about progression of music development, and not about where it was being played. The big difference is that, in the early 80s, most techno producers were located in the US (and most of them in Detroit), but after a few years most producers were located across the atlantic. While the American clubs were still playing the music, the source of the records had changed.

Note what happened in the early 80s too? &nbsp That's right. &nbsp CDs. &nbsp And within about 5 years, vinyl disappeared from the shelves of the record stores, which put many DJs in a bind. &nbsp There were still some places (as there are today) who produced 12" singles on vinyl, but basically, the CD drove the entire scene underground - at least for a little while. &nbsp Which resulted in a shift to tape (which I have done in the past), ie., mixing records and CD, with some quick edits, to tape, and then playing THAT at a club.

The progression of the music continued but was obscured by the brief but major resurgence of dance-pop and R&B in the U.S. (eg., Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Prince, EW&F, Madonna, George Michael, et. al) - whereby as you indicate, techno and music formally known as Disco began to reinvent itself as "club" and "house" and were generally instrumental - with some "world music" type vocals and other stuff mixed in.

Of course at the end of the 80s and into the 90s, this so-called "gansta rap" began to take center stage, and since the new rap stuff was often not "dance-to-able" (unlike the older rap), "house" and eventually "techno" (in its modern form) became the mainstay of those clubs still open (alot of clubs had closed! Believe me, I watched it happen!).

Anyway, I'm just speaking from experience and having been a DJ during the late 70s - early 80s and having worked with east coast DJs, I'll just say that it doesn't make me any kind of expert by any means, but I was there. &nbsp ;-)

Re:Linux And Hip Hop

[Freon]

Well put. Hip-Hop is the soul, Rap is the business. Not all of the genre speaks about f**king bitches and shooting n**gas. Try Blackalicious (the NIA album is dope, Melodica too if you can find it), Quannum Projects (which DJ Shadow is a part of), Jurassic 5, Organized Konfusion (Pharohe Monche is the most incredible lyricist _ever_, get "Stress: the extinction agenda"), the Arsonists, Lootpack, etc.

If you're into DJ Shadow's work, try UNKLE. Also look for Live at the Future Primitive Soundsessions: Cut Chemist vs. Shortkut. 70min live set of the two on 5 turntables! They even cut up Beastie Boys' Eggman! Also check Rob Swift (the Ablist), DJ Krush, DJ Qbert (Demolition Pumpkin Squeeze Musik is better than Wave Twisters, but Japanese imports are hard to find), Kid Koala, Coldcut, DJ Cam, DJ Vadim ("Life on the Other Side" is dope), Beat Junkies, Dilated Peoples, god the list goes on. I should probably stop now.

Please people don't dismiss such a varied (and beautiful) music genre!

Re:What up my niggaz?

[jeremyf]

NOT FUNNY

- Jeremy Fuller

Re:Identical Twins

[Erchie]

Maybe dat's so, bro But Linux gwine ter makes Ev'ry Microsoft ho Eat plenty o' CRAP, along w' Gates. It's jes' a mattah o' time B'fo all you luzers be cry'in An' wishin' dat yo'all Could dribble dat open source ball.

Re:No, Linux is more like techno/rave

[is not]

ok, I'm gonna say, what in god's name do you think you're saying. Invented Techno?

No, I beg to differ.

LFO, Kraftwerk, Depeche Mode, Genesis, YMO, Walter Carlos even, techno has had it's roots as far back as the 60s. The theramin, and various pioneering synthesizer technologies that progressed afterwards.

Disco, Euro, the tribal music from Goa, James Brown, Soul, and hip hop all lend their sounds and feels to techno.

The breakbeat, the dance-diva lyrics, the screaming acid of a 303 (digery do reminiciscant?).

I'd qualify, the chemical brothers, as Big Beat, pioneering in their own way, by far they aren't the inventors.

And I don't even prefer the chemical brothers.

I prefer (psy-/cyber-)trance, jungle (darkstep and techstep) and house (chicago or french)

In the early days, there was electro, and breakbeat, disco, and soul. Hardcore, House, and straight techno emerged from this soup.

hardcore bred with hip hop and breakbeat to form jungle(dnb) which takes it's name from the james brown track "into the jungle groove". House emerged from disco and soul.

Hardcore bred with house to form hard house, hip hop and house's child became booty house (ugh). Techno and house merged and mutated and trance was born, a relatively new genre. Trance borrowed from Goa to form Goa trance and cybertrance. breeding with hardcore, hard and hard acid trance were born.

Techno puttered along without much outside influence, and broke off into various sub-genres, and bred with other genres to form the likes of trance, tech house, it influenced dnb, and most other genres.

And that, is a brief history of techno

Re:EXPLODE YOUR TRADING PROFITS!!!!

[JDax]

What's your problem? I'm providing an important service.

Here's somthing quoted out of the Slashdot FAQ:

Basically we are trying to moderate as best we can, removing spam, troll posts, first posts, offtopic stuff. The moderation system doesn't delete anything, it just marks it down, so people can choose how much they want to read, or not read. A better description of the moderation system can be read on the moderator guidelines page.

Since ads placed in the middle of a discussion (or emailed) are considered as "spam", you are thus moderated down. &nbsp If you go here, you can join the others at the top of the page with their blinking ads - at a price of course.

Professional Standards

[Pope Slackman]

>but by no stretch of the imagination is Linux developed to professional standards.

Hehehe...I'm willing to bet that a lot of professional
code isn't developed to 'professional standards'.
The difference is that very few people get to see any of it...

--Kevin

=-=-=-=-=-=
"Just take another hit 'cause you don't give a f*ck-
You're a junkie and you're proud!"

***THE_LINUX_RAP***

[kaoshin]

Linux flows on and on till the break of dawn
and it don't stop till you choose so how can
you lose? If you are a skilled user or coder,
be down with Linux cause Windows got that odor.
Let me RiKi RiKi ryhme while I check my uptime
and eat these hot grits cause they taste so fine.
Don't stop get it get it.
Go linux, Go Linux go, go linux go. Get Buck!
Get Buck! ~Bow wow wow yippie yo yippie yay~

Word out to the all the Slashers and my Trolldogs
All you sucka OS's like Linux One quit imitatin
Pour out a little liquor for your dead processes

Re:***THE_LINUX_RAP***

[bahamuut]

--what's up with the "grits" allusion?

Linus just shot Richard

[uebernewby]

And the KDE clan is waging war on the Gnome clan...

Yo, I got root, nigga

I got root

And all them Microslut bitches gon' suck on my big

Linus dick.

(repeat 1000 times)

Of course, if linux is like any form of music, it's like punk rock - fuck the majors, we'll do it ourselves.

How much major label crock do you remember from the 80's? And how many punk bands?

Re:Linus just shot Richard

[swordgeek]

OK, since you're obviously young and your point about rap was dead on, I'll go easy on you.

BUT, punk died with the Ramones. Anything since them that's been called punk has been (gasp!!!) backed by major labels. Anything labelled punk in the last ten years (especially the last four or so) is EXACTLY as 'major label' as the Beastie Boys, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, 'N Sync, and Brittny fuck(me)ing Spears.

Here's some major label crock from the '80s for you: the Eurythmics. Annie Lennox, like her music or not, has the finest voice since the likes of Ella and Nina.

I'm a "folk" fan, in all senses. I like what is (currently) called "folk music," but you must recognise this: You and I can't reasonably discuss what music most accurately encompases the spirit of open source, because open source music is, by its very definition, LOCAL. In fact, the only reason that different linux distros aren't geographically local is because the computing community isn't geographically segregated.

Kind of a roundabout way of saying forget about punk vs. 'major label,' vs. metal, vs. ska, vs. polka, vs. big vs. small. Saying "fuck the majors" is pointless and counterproductive, if they're willing to help you. Saying "stick to the majors" if they're NOT willing to help you is just as pointless (just ask Ani DiFranco). DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO. Any field, any genre, any time. Period.

Re:Linus just shot Richard

[Master of Kode Fu]

Linus is too laid-back and just all-round nice to get into "gangsta" mode. I imagine that he's from the "Native Tongue" school -- I can see him frontin' for De La Soul or maybe A Tribe Called Quest. ESR, gun nut that he is, is probably more likely to pop a cap in Stallman's ass, and maybe point his gat at Perens while he's at it.

The Twomobile.com people have no taste

[Taco Cowboy]

"open source coding has been available waay
before linux and was available at
universities waay before anywhere else.
to compare it to a crap mainstream pop
culture is degrading at best. and its not
just a simple fashion trend."

TWO THUMBS UP !

The twomobile.com people have NO taste.

Comparing a beautifully crafted piece like Linux,

by people whom have contributed generously
their talents for the GOOD OF THE WORLD,

to the crappy hip-hop, and gangster rap

(do you notice that those hip-hop guys can't
walk like a normal human being? They have to
always walk their "ganster" kind of way? What
a lousy image)

is totally UNFAIR to Linux and all other open-source projects.

We should not let tasteless cretins like the twomobile.com people drag us through the mud like this.

I know, I know, the "open-source" theme is "IN", and everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon, but we should NOT let shitheads like those from the twomobile taking advantage of the "open-source" thing to gain their own 15 second worth of fame.

At the very least, the open-source community has the right to self-respect. All of us who have contributed to open-source projects have diginity, and we will NOT let shits like the twomobile.com people ruin our integrity just because they feel "kewl" to attach "opensource" to themselves.

Lest other say we are an "elite" group, we are not. But we are not GANSTERS either, we are NOT like the rap/hip-hop group who want so much to "impress" the world with their lousy low-class attitude.

Re:The Twomobile.com people have no taste

[Taco Cowboy]

"I agree. having a soul is very "low-class"."

It has nothing to do with "soul" or "blues".

Hip-hop and Rap is SOOOOO different from R&B they (rap and hip-hop) are more like the yellings of madmans on the street.

BTW, about "low class", acting like fscking GANGSTAS, is DEFINITELY a tasteless passtime !

Re:The Twomobile.com people have no taste

[bahamuut]

The twomobile.com people were just trying to draw a parallel. for you guys to sit back from your computers and disrespect a culture and an artform that you clearly don't understand is crass, and even more low class than the people that you're insulting. first of all, pop culture and hip hop culture are two different things. pop culture is what you get after big record companies sink their money-lubed hooks into the artist. What you see on MTV and hear on #include is mostly crap. The main reason that they portray that "Ghetto" image is because that's what sells. That's what some suit has told him or her that they want to see more of. On the other hand, some artist have a message to relay or a story ot tell, and many times it does come from the ghetto because that's what they know and that's where they come from. If you listen to an evolving artist, many of them have to drop the "ghetto" pretenses because they aren't affiliated with that shit anymore. They have kids to feed and they aren't kids anymore themselves. They grow up. The same thing is true in othere generes of music and you're an idiot if you don't recognize it. I have heard a lot of other types of music(Metal, Country) and actively LISTEN to others (Hip Hop, Alternative, Trance, House, Jungle). The Game stays the same (talented kids trying to make it while the COMPANY uses them to make as much money before they're out of style) but the players change as you cross these different Generes. I'm a hip-hop head till I die, but even I see that it would benefit us all to take a look at what's really goin' on instead of bashing what we truly don't understand. Bottom line is this Music is a Business. Hip Hop is a business. Linux is becoming a business. It's up to the Linux community to shape the path of the business so that fewer people feel like they have to sell out to feel like they've made it. For a true Hip Hop artist, rapping is a first love. For a true programmer, programming is a first love. True the article didn't present the parallel in the best light, but the link is far from tenuous. Long live Linux Long live Hip Hop

Injustice to Linux and open-source !

[Taco Cowboy]

I want to protest the injustice the twomobile.com people have done to Linux and all other open-source projects.

The twomobile.com people have NO taste.

Comparing a beautifully crafted piece like Linux,

by people whom have contributed generously
their talents for the GOOD OF THE WORLD,

to the crappy hip-hop, and gangster rap

(do you notice that those hip-hop guys can't
walk like a normal human being? They have to
always walk their "ganster" kind of way? What
a lousy image)

is totally UNFAIR to Linux and all other open-source projects.

We should not let tasteless cretins like the twomobile.com people drag us through the mud like this.

I know, I know, the "open-source" theme is "IN", and everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon, but we should NOT let shitheads like those from the twomobile taking advantage of the "open-source" thing to gain their own 15 second worth of fame.

At the very least, the open-source community has the right to self-respect. All of us who have contributed to open-source projects have diginity, and we will NOT let shits like the twomobile.com people ruin our integrity just because they feel "kewl" to attach "opensource" to themselves.

Lest other say we are an "elite" group, we are not. But we are not GANSTERS either, we are NOT like the rap/hip-hop group who want so much to "impress" the world with their lousy low-class attitude.

I have read a lot of the "rap/hip-hop" is poetic crap. If hip-hop and rap is so "poetic", why do we have so many drive-by alley shooting with those hip-hop/rap blaring at the background?

Gimme a break ! Gimme a fscking break !

You want your "gansta" image, go to hip-hop/rap. You want to contribute your talents to the world, come and contribute it to the many open-source projects. But please, don't equate the two things, for they are NOT the same thing.

Re:Injustice to Linux and open-source !

[swordgeek]

Agreed.

Linux took talent to create.

Re:Injustice to Linux and open-source !

[Taco Cowboy]

"If hip-hop and rap is so "poetic",
why do we have so many drive-by
alley shooting with those
hip-hop/rap blaring at the
background?"

"Great point, very insightful. I mean
if they were really poetic they would
quote shakespeare to each other, ie
drive-by quotings."

Oh well... do you see any of them Hip-Hop "KINGS" quoting shakespear, huh?

I mean, if you want _CLASS_, then SHOW some.

Now WHO the hell is the racist?

[Taco Cowboy]

You accuse Signal11 to be a racist, while you said the following:

"I realize that you have no idea what the
hell people of African descent sound like,"

Are YOU trying to tell us that people of African descent **MUST** sound like what you think they must sound like, or they cannot claim themselves to he decendents of African people?

By saying that the people of African descend *MUST* do this, or do that, you have become the DE FACTO RACIST in this debate.

People of African descent are PEOPLE, their blood is as RED as the white, yellow or brown folks. They have the right to ACT whatever way they want, and NOBODY, NOT EVEN YOU, can tell them what to do, or how to act, or what "sound" they have to do.

I am sick and tired of people who always think that people with blackskin must love rap/hip-hop "becoz that's their wayz".

BULLSHIT !

Can't people of African descent love classical music?

I mean, what is wrong with Africans playing NICE SOOTHING music?

Jeeeze.

You guys make me sick ! REALLY SICK !!!

And one more thing - if you want rap music, go play your rap music, but NEVER, and I repeat, N*E*V*E*R claim that the Aricans are the one who OWNZ the Rap music.

There are LOTS of different kinds of GANSTAS out there, and the black people do not have the exclusive right to GANSTAism.

OT: Chris Rock

[0xdeadbeef]

Chris Rock is partially responsible for the marginalization of black culture.

I saw one of his comedy routines on HBO where he made a mockery of the Columbine massacare, saying something to the effect of "black people kill each other all the time, but at least we don't go overboard like those crazy white people".

Re:OT: Chris Rock

[rnd()]

I agree that his comment was insensitive,
but I think his statement was intended not
to make light of columbine, but to point out
the way that violence against and among blacks
fails to incite a similar level of outrage,
both from the public and the media.

Chris Rock is a much needed voice and ingenious social critic.

Re:OT: Chris Rock

[quonsar]

Chris Rock is partially responsible for the marginalization of black culture.

so-called black pop culture, quite precisely summarized in rap music, is marginal at best. why speak as if the marginalization of it were a distinct action by some external force with sinister motivation? a reeking pile of shit is a reeking pile of shit.

======
"Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16

Re:OT: Chris Rock

[rnd()]

> as if the marginalization of it were a
>distinct action by some external force with
>sinister motivation

I do not make that assumption. I used the
term marginalization to describe an
emergent cultural phenomenon. While aspects
of pop culture change quickly, it takes
longer for there to be a shift in people's
underlying beliefs.

> a reeking pile of shit is a reeking pile of shit

Based on this, I doubt you are persuadable by logic.

Principle and comparison

[Taco Cowboy]

Look. I may agree to that principle that you have outlined, but I do not agree to the comparison the twomobile.com people have thrown at us.

We are open-source, we contribute our time, our talent, and our effort to make the world just a littlebit better.

The rap/hip-hop "artists", on the other hand, contribute to the world with the GANSTA image, with drive-by shooting, death, drugs, mayhem.

We the open-source people are NOT like that. We do not believe in kicking, or murdering the people we have disagreement with. We do not believe in displaying our *MACHO* image so to make the world "fear" us.

We don't need anyone to fear us. All we ever want is to make this world just that little bit better.

That is all we are asking.

That isn't much, or is it?

Why do we have to be drag through the shits by the twomobile people, comparing us with those GANSTAS?

I really resent the comparison. I really do.

I understand that the "open-source" thingy is "KEWL" nowadays, that everybody and their mother-in-law wants to be "IN" with us.

I understand that all.

But please, please LET US DO OUR THINGS and please LEAVE US ALONE !

Don't do the CHEAP TRICKS like the twomobile.com has done - we are NOT gangstas, and we have no need to show off our *MACHONESS* and we don't need to spray bullets into our enemies' body.

We don't call our female friends "hoe" or "bitch", we don't "MF" everybody we see, and we do not believe in violence.

I appreciate your "principle" thing, but please, don't use the word "Linux" (and all other open-source projects) in the same sentence with "Rap" or "hip-hop".

We are NOT the same.

We have respects. We respect each others, and we respect our female friends. We are NOT like them, period.

Re:Principle and comparison

[Flerg]

You seem to think gangster rap is the only type of rap there is. Perhaps you should listen to some rap other than that in the mainstream. There's a lot of rap that doesn't fit that image at all. Listen to the Roots, listen to Ozomatli, listen to The Jurassic 5, listen to any number of early rap groups. Gangster rap is only a small subset of rap as a whole.
Additionally, the practice of using parts of other songs in other songs (for instance, Atomic Dog by George Clinton is used in dozens and dozens of songs), is similar to the open source ethic of being free to use code in new projects.
Rap is not all gangster rap, and Linux is not all script kiddies. Both are just subsets of the whole, with bad reputations.

-Flerg

I agree wholeheartedly !!

[Taco Cowboy]

"If I were forced to try to compare the
operating system players to the different
music types, I'd say Microsoft is like any
pop music that the braindead masses enjoy.
Music with no quality that is just out to
make money (Rap is definately included in
some of these).

Open Source operating systems are obviously
akin to DIY music where they try to bypass
the corrupt music industry. Rap is really
nothing like Linux. A horrible article,
really. =( "

I agree with you wholeheartedly !

It is NOT only a horrible article, it is a CHEAP attempt for the twomobile.com people to gain personal fame by using words like "Linux" or "open-source".

We should NOT let these cheap bastard get away so easily. We should never let anyone degrade the beautiful nature of opensource by dragging us through the shits, be it Rap, Hip-Hop or whatever.

I truly resent what the twomobile.com people have done. I truly resent that the things that I have contributed to the open-source projects (and the many MORE things others have contributed as well) are degraded to the "GANGSTA" level of Rap and/or hip-hop.

We never need to show our "machoness", unlike those "GANGSTAS". We never need to call our female partners "hoe" or "bitch", and we in the open-source movement treat everybody equally, unlike those "GANGSTAS" who think they are "KINGS" and they can "scare" the world with their display of machoness.

Man, I just can't tell you how furious I am.

Re:I agree wholeheartedly !!

[jedrek]

Get your head out of the sewer! Rap is not about 'Gangstas'.

> We never need to show our "machoness"

That's bunk. The open source community is all about pose. It's all about fame and making something that your fellow geeks will enjoy.

Rap USED to be like open source because:

a) Good rap (like good software) was very often non-mainstream.
b) They're both politicaly charged.
c) Very often there's no funding. (You've heard of Master P? He started his record label by selling tapes out of the back of his car.)
d) There's still a die-hard cult following.

I don't think Corporate America was scared of rap, I think they just didn't care. Rap wasn't moving the units (or so they claimed) and they didn't need to support it. Now...

Jay

-- polish ccs mirror

Real linux and hiphop

[Kev Vance]

Okay, maybe the article was a stretch, but this isn't: TerminatorX (my favorite linux audio program). Make virtual turntables from audio files and scratch them like vinyl records with your mouse!

Linux meets hiphop? Yeah, now we're talking :)

"Truest" form

[Taco Cowboy]

You said:

"Hip hop (in its truest form) is about self
expression, about doing _your_ thing, and
adding your voice to a community of
creativity."

Let me tell you something - ANYTHING in their TRUEST FORM may be either GOOD or BAD, but that STILL doesn't mean shit.

What Hip-Hop, and Rap, has "EVOLVED" into, from their "TRUEST FORM" is BLATANT COMMERCIALIZATION, SHOW-OFF-ISM, GANSTA-ISM, SEX=ISM, IDIOT-ISM, and VIOLENCE.

So many people from the "hip-hop/rap" group think that they are "GREAT" just because they get to spray bullets into their enemies.

Is that what we want? More violence in this world?

Linux and all other open-source projects, and the people participate in it, do not believe in violece. We do not believe in showing off. We also do not call our female friends "Hoe" or "Bitch".

We don't need to show off our "MACHO"-ness to "SCARE" the whole world. We don't need to scare anybody, period.

In other words, Linux and all other open-source projects, and all the people participate in it, do not need to go back to our "TRUEST FORM" to be non-violence and to have a good intention to make this world a better place.

We don't need to go back to any "TRUEST FORM" because we don't need to PRETEND to be anything we are not.

We are just people, people who love to contribute our time, effort and talent to make this world a better place. That is all.

Re:"Truest" form

[MadProfessor]

The "truest" form of hip hop is that of story telling. The emphasis is on the lyrical tones, the dynamic use of words, the play of sounds. Hip hop is not about the "benjamins." Hip hop is a culture founded on the four pillars, b-boying, mc-ing, dj-ing, and graffiti. All are forms of self expression.
The problem with people like Puff Daddy is that they promote a sick fantasy, one most people will never live. Originally (and still in the underground hip hop of today), the mc would rap around something everyone could relate to:
Racism, predjudice, poverty, happiness, love, humor, etc. The best mcs of hip hop have something to say, and will say it well.

Re:Linux And Hip Hop

[JDax]

Well put. Hip-Hop is the soul, Rap is the business.

Huh? &nbsp I guess I'm now sorely out of date... &nbsp I remember Hip-Hop starting off as a "dance and music style" for the 80s teeny boppers, different from R&B, popularized by guys like Bobby Brown and his little group, and absorbing the "Go Go" (remember that?) style that was all the rage in the Chocolate City (D.C.). &nbsp Then it sortof mysteriously tranformed itself into this "culture" generation-gap thing ($$$-generated) with clothing and attitudes and the brief ressurection of James Brown and "gettin' paid" and stuff like that. &nbsp The rap of today is similarly "media generated" and has now sunk to the level of the media-created groups of the 60s. &nbsp The groups today lack the cleverness and hard driving, "in your face" message of a Public Enemy (although Arrested Development tried to hold down the fort amidst the so-called gangsta rap genre). &nbsp Sigh... music =! technology... &nbsp I still think the connection is weak...

Re:No, Linux is more like techno/rave

[JDax]

In the early days, there was electro, and breakbeat, disco, and soul. Hardcore, House, and straight techno emerged from this soup.

Don't forget "funk", the genre (and I mean the George Clinton and friends of the "Tear the roof off the mutha" and "Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadooloop" variety) which pre-dated all of this and used synthesizers throughout. &nbsp You could probably add the techno-rock-funk style of a then young Prince (from the late 70s) in that mix too... ;-)

Re:Rap and Linux ... nahhh

[jawad]

Yea RIGHT! I know, I know -- don't feed the trolls. But still! Apparently a lot of Slashdotters feel that Rapping is lame, etc. Listen to some rap music sometime. And marvel at their insane lyrical skills.

The REAL meaning of HIPHOP, and relation to linux

[Anonymous Coward]

90% of the stuff that you think is hiphop, is NOT. I like to call it Hip-POP; the commercialized mainstream evolution of hiphop from the 70s and 80s. Hiphop is a CULTURE. It consists of at least 4 elements - MCing (rapping), Turntablism (DJing), B-Boying (breakdancing), and Grafitti (aerosol art). It is a positive culture. It is also an UNDERGROUND culture; e.g. very little mainstream coverage. The Roots would be a good example of a crossover from underground to mainstream, while staying true to the culture and not selling out. MCing could be considered a form or poetry to a beat; a lot of underground hiphop artists also indulge in spoken word. others prefer freestyling, where one comes up with the rhymes in 'realtime'; the better ones match syllables, or rhyme multiple syllables, etc, on the fly. Turntablism is focuses on using the turntables as a new instrument; get albums from "The Invisbl Skratch Pikles" (sp), or "X-ecutioners", and you'll probably be amazed at what can be done with those two turntables and a mixer. B-Boying is ... physical expression of the beat. it's hard to explain the vibe of a modern bboy to someone who hasn't experienced it. Graffiti is an ever evolving artform -- i'm not talking those simple tags that gangs use, i'm talking about fullblown murals that cities such as LA PAY graffiti artists to paint. Hip-pop, on the otherhand is a DISGRACE. People such as Puffy, Master P, etc etc have distorted hiphop into an evil image of its former self; focusing on wealth, power, sexism, violence, etc. the moral of this story is this. true hiphop is a respectible culture. its evil son, hip-pop, has been polluted by the meddling of mainstream corporations. (e.g. the lure of $$$). i'm sure that you all can draw a possible analogy with Linux......... anyway this is my first time posting so don't flame to to bad.

Re:If linux is hip hop Windows is "New Country"

[Master of Kode Fu]

...Ween?

Oh, twaddle!

[Skald]

"People of African descent" are quite self-aware, and their self-parodies are often a lot harsher than this. And no, I, for one, am not a suburbanite. If you like, I'll go get a real, live black person (like my girlfriend) to tell you this is funny.

Lighten up.

hip-hop, rap and so on - suckerz

[elsewhere]

"Music" for stoopid people

Re:Identical Twins

[jeremyf]

I recommend this fellow be banned from slashdot.org forever. He doesn't even speak English.

- Jeremy Fuller

Re:Japanese Hip Hop

[unitron]

"(Yes, you haven't lived until you've heard Japanese hip hop.)"
And after you have heard it do you still want to live?

Re:USA has no culture

[unitron]

"can you please tell me where we imported those from?"
Africa, for the most part. Although I guess we can take credit for the slavery part, without which probably none of the aforementioned would have developed.
Hey, there's an interesting viewpoint (or rationalization, depending on how you look at it). If great artists truly need to suffer for their art, then you can be a patron of the arts by providing the suffering. I guess that's how the trolls around here convince themselves that they improve Slashdot.

Re:Linux = Any Music?

[unitron]

"Linux could probably be compared to just about any form of music."
Okay, I'll play along. How can Linux be compared to Beach Music? Not Surf Music, Beach Music.

I Think there are some important comparisons.

[schwaahed]

I am Harlem born and bred. I grew up with Hip Hop and am very disturbed with the changes in certain portions, as it has gained more crossover recognition and money.
The whole "Gangsta Rap," thing is something that I feel has been largely a success because of Corporate Funding and White people buying it. I am not saying that Black People don't buy it but most of it is bought by whites. It is disturbing to me that so many people think that this is what Hip Hop culture represents. I don't think it is but this is where the money is at. A lot of the commentary above is just sad. I didn't realize that people are really that ignorant about what Rap or Hip Hop is. I know what it is for me so I don't personally feel like I need to prove that point to anyone on this list.
If you do look at how the image of Rap has been hijacked into the Insane Lie that is most "Gangsta Rap," it might give some clues for how the Linux community could, and possibly already is being hijacked itself.

-Peace
Schwaahed

(FYI Peace is how many of us Rappers say good-bye to each other.(BTW Not everyone born in Harlem is a Rapper))

Re:I Think there are some important comparisons.

[William Fold]

Respects going out to Schwaahed.

As a converted white boy who grew up in a redneck small town where radio stations would advertise "No rap" as a selling point, I now can finally appreciate hip-hop for what it is.

I look back and can't believe how close-minded I was in the past. I'm glad I opened my eyes and gave hip-hop a chance as it is can be far more real than anything out there.

Saying that all hip-hop is about drive-by shooting and drugs is like saying all rock is like Marilyn Manson.

- Bill Fold

Re:I Think there are some important comparisons.

[bahamuut]

I'm with my man on this one. The imagery of rap that you all have displayed is proof that perceptions are drasticly skewed. It's like this insane circle that someone has formed for the benefit of profitability
--little jimmy sees the 6 o'clock news talking about the "intrensic" violence contained in "Gangsta" rap
--he goes and picks up the album that he saw on the news
--he takes everything LITERALLY that he hears on the album like it's the gospel or someething and turns into an overnight wanna-be thug.

Now I bet that you all thought that little jimmy was white, but he could be black, latino, chineese or whatever. I've seen it happen all over the place. what these kids missed (or what they overly related to) is that the song that they were ignorantly bobbing their heads to was a song of loss of a homie (a friend) over some bullshit. the tale was brilliantly entertaining (as shown by the bobbing of the heads) but over their little heads. Now little Jimmy feels like he can take over the world and bust a cap in anybody's ass that comes his way. Little does he know that he has just stepped into the shoes of the homey that died on the album who thought that his shit didn't stink either. It's a circle I tell you, and keeping open minds and open eyes as to what's going on is the only answer

The early days of niggaz and linux! yo.

[fluxrad]

Ahh...this article takes me back to the early 1990's (not all too long ago in my mind) when we would always see these types of similarities in tha' hoods like Silicon Valley or Seattle.

I remember when my friend's laptop died. He was inconsolable for weeks. At the laptop's burial (or being "thrown into the dumpster" as we lino-thugz call it) - my friend took out his 40oz. bottle of Old English and said "peace my little homey!" - he wasted that whole $#(*$ bottle of OE on that laptop. It's hard you know...i see laptops and desktops dying every day in tha muthafuckin' hood. Apple newtons tryin' be frontin'...why some Palm V gots ta start some shit?

Whateva yo. I just be tryin' to keep it real up in this mix - cause i be rollin' in my 3.3.6

Sorry..i have to end this post now..i have to go practice my "gang" signs. ENLIGHTENMENT IN THA' MUTHA-FUCKIN' HAAAOUUUS!!!


-FluX
-------------------------
Your Ad Here!
-------------------------

This can be said about any new thing, though...

[GreenGhost]

Just about any new thing in any industry won't be touched with a twenty foot pole until its large enough to yield a profit.

Is this really happening?

[RESPAWN]

Has /. really deteriorated to the point where one person (and an AC at that) can set off an entire race riot on these boards? The post was clearly a troll. There was not anything offensive at all in Signal11's comment. I think that we should all just stop arguing about race and just discuss the article.

Just my two cents anyway.

Re:Identical Twins

[Octal]

Well, you don't speak sense, you don't accuse.

Re:No, Linux is more like techno/rave

[is not]

you're right, how could I forget funk. I also failed to mention jazz I believe.

Re:Ignorance...

[bahamuut]

Yes, I know there is rap music from the Roots, Common, Lauryn Hill, etc. that is uplifting but these are exceptions to the rule and not the norm. And even then they still do not define our culture but are simply just songs some of us listen to at the moment.

--you need to understand an underlying difference that you aren't making

RAP MUSIC is a genre that has been unduly and unjustly by many people labeled as GANGSTER and for those people who are semi-literate. this is a LABEL. True there are those people who choose to portray an image of impoverished ignorance but most of them do this because it sells. They don't want to be in the ghetto any more than me or the next person, but that image sells like f****'n hotcakes! I mean white folks, black folks, they eat it up. This is a problem in our JOINT society, where depictions of poverty, violence, and drugs are seen as entertainment.

Hip Hop is a culture that involves rapping, free-styling, dancing, and having a good-ass time. it doesn't have shit to do with butin' a cap in yo' ass. That's obviously what you've seen on tv, and that's what you've taken as fact. get off your ass and observe for yourself! take into account that one scene that you may happen upon doesn't represent hip hop as a whole. Some critical thinking is definately in order here..

Bottomline

[Taco Cowboy]

In your reply to me, you mentioned:

"Bottom line is this Music is a Business.
Hip Hop is a business. Linux is becoming
a business."

Before you continue, please wait.

Music is NOT a business. The "business" part of MUSIC is just a _tiny_ part.

I _AM_ a musician, not by trade, but by hobbie.

I play keyboards, drums, guitars and other strings instruments like violin.

Yes, I am a TRAINED musician, and music does flow in my veins.

But I never make my music a business - not because they won't sell - I am sure I can at least capture a certain portion of a local market if I try - but I just don't feel like SELLING what I love to do.

It is like what I am doing in the GPL world - in my free time, I program for fun, and just like the music I made, the code I produce I don't want to sell them. I just want to share them with the world, so I assign open up the sources, GPLed them, and let whoever wants to use it use it.

On the other hand, Hip Hop *IS* a business because those Hip Hop people - people such as you - LIKE MONEY SO MUCH YOU WILL SELL ANYTHING FOR MONEY.

You are right on one point. Linux does not have to become business - but then, if businesses want to use Linux, they are welcome to use it. Why not? Why set up any kind of restriction?

I am not a communist and I don't believe in socialism. So, I have nothing against business. If they find the thing I (and many thousands others) have done beneficial, and they want to use it (and not re-package them and re-sell them for a profit), they are welcome to do so.

The bottomline is this -

The nature of Hip Hop is NOT the same
as the one exists in Linux and other
open-source projects.

Plus, Hip Hop is NOT music.

Music are beautiful, and music has a FLOW in it.

Some of the codes for Linux and many other open-sourced projects are so beautiful, you can sense a FLOW in them.

On the other hand, Hip Hop has NO flow in
it.

Hipp Hop is NOISE, PURE LOUSY, _synthetic_
and _pretentious_ NOISE !

Re:poo, pure and simple

[bahamuut]

Rap music glorifies violence and death, and its treatment of the relationships between the sexes is repulsive

--where did you get that from, a book? You sound like a page out of some dumb misinformed newsperson's journal true there are songs out there that do glorify violence and death, but so are there in other generes of music. And just like other generes of music, it has some very, very bright spots too. I listen to just about everything (sans country) and have my favorites in all of these generes. But just like rap, most of the utter SHIT that crawls it's way into the "MAINSTREAM" is not that great. It usually represents some uniform theme that every other song that crawled into the "main(shit)stream" does, and is ususallly of the same wack quality. I've actually did my part and LISTENED to the other stuff that I once considered crap, and was suprised to find LOTS of music with redeeming and even entertaining qualities. have you?