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Konqueror.org Launched - KDE2 Web Browser
Rob Kaper writes: "The KDE team has launched www.konqueror.org, a site devoted to their browser component for KDE2. "Konqi" can do HTML4, CSS2, SSL, Java, Javascript, SMB shares and soon even Netscape plug-ins such as Flash. I've seen it in action and looks like a very worthy competitor to Mozilla."
Konqueror itself will be released with KDE2- the web site is there to be a place for users to find out information about it and decide whether or not they want to use it. If GNOME's killer app will be Evolution, KDE's killer app is definitely Konqueror. It is the testbed and backbone for nearly every one of the new KDE2 technologies- KIO, KParts, KHTML, and several more.
It's an interesting world to be in, and the site is only going to get better. As the webmaster, I can say that it *will* definitely get better.
-Chris
Konqi???
You've got to be kidding me. Will the person responsible for this step forward so that they might be beaten with a pointy stick? It sounds like a bloody teletubby for gods sake!
Does anyone actually think to themselves, "ooh i wonder if there's anything new on slashdot, I'll just fire up Konqi".
This is right up there with Geeko, the Suse chameleon/gecko/greenturdwithatail.
Really... If you're going to name your software, for the love of god, please try to make it something inspiring instead of this cutesy crap
Agreed. I think that this comes down to the user not getting handcuffed by the app and being allowed to be as smart or as stupid as they want.
Ie: if you have 4 panes open, one with your local files, one with a browser, one with a file view of your files on a remote server, logged in as root, and one with a user login on a system you're in the process of changing from a user system to an mp3 server.. well, I see a bit of potential for error there. ie: Bad Idea
However, if you do a 2 pane system, one of local files, one of say, a remote ftp server where you're uploading files, this is a Good Idea.
:)
alan, stating the obvious again...
IE is not one big application. Nor is Konqueror, nor is Nautilus, nor Evolution. IE, for example, is made up of hundreds of smaller programs, components, glued together in a shell. Component technology is extremely powerful, efficient, and sweet. :)
----
Celebrate the finer things in life
No, actual XML support. Like Mozilla.
I can take an arbitrary piece of XML, add a stylesheet directive and turn it into a wonderful web presentation of the same data.
The book example shows Mozilla rendering the same XML fragment as a two great looking E-commerce interfaces, from the same data. Just alter the CSS and all your database content flows into the new layout.
You can achieve 99% of this with HTML and scripting, but why bother? If browsers like Mac IE and Mozilla support XML properly it will all Just Work (TM)
n/m
why aren't browsers not only keeping up, but staying ahead of the curve?
Because the people they are selling web browsers to (well, selling in a metaphorical sense) are people who view web pages, not those who make them.
Sure, you can argue that being able to display all of the CSS standards would result in a really kick-ass browser that joe-user would flock to since it renders tons of pages really well. But, by and large, struggling to adhere to every minor spec in CSS is a diminishing return proposition. If you hit the high points, you can claim CSS (or CSS1) compatibility. Some of the CSS stuff will work, and some people's pages will look neat. Makes the marketing guys happy. Makes users think you're cool. And you don't have to pay all those programmers to do a thorough job.
Let's face it, there are many other pressures on the browsers maker. If you were project manager for IE or Netscape, and you could develop either better support of CSS features, which may marginally make the rendering of pages better, or a killer end-user feature that will make joe-user go "good golly! lookee here!", which will you go for? And, of course, and spare resources you'd probably put into trying to make the thing crash a bit less often, or making it a bit less of a godawful bloated stinking whale of an application.
I suspect, by this point, that a lot of resources are spent just trying to cope with how bloated these apps are.
As for those that are up-and-coming (perhaps you'd throw Mozilla into this category) there is a struggle to get all of the "must haves" into their browser. Think of it. For a complete browser these days, you have to interpret two markup languages (HTML and XML), one scripting language, tie into Java, have a plugin architecture, support a bunch of graphics formats, tie into e-mail programs (or supply your own), and support multiple platforms. And you have to throw that program up against all of the heinous web pages out there that were poorly written, or perhaps just written in a way to try to cope with both IE and Netscape. That's a tall order... and will take a long time to develop. The pressure to cut corners and get the thing out the door is high (especially if you're a for-pay development concern). I'll be impressed if Konqueror can deliver on all of that within a reasonable time.
Besides, you can run it from any desktop environment you want - as long as you have the KDE libraries installed
Which means you have to port the KDE libs to your platform first, unless they already make KDE for BeOS, Mac OS, or Microsoft Windows.
Will I retire or break 10K?
You have completely misunderstood the WWW. The goal has _always_ been about managing information. Just reading the title of Tim Berners-Lee initial WWW proposal ( http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html ) "Information Management: A Proposal" says it.
/mill - tired of all this
I suggest you read about WebDAV ( http://www.webdav.org ).
I've regularly used KDE2 (including KOffice) for close to a year now. Things have been usable and more than screenshots for quite a long time. They just aren't release quality, as bug exists. I can live with a crash of an app here and there, but it shouldn't exist when the general public gets it. KWord has been usable to create documents for a long time. Things like the MS filters need work before release. I just don't use Office, so those are of little use to me. But I have made documents, printed them, used various formatting features, given them to clients, etc. with little problem (save regularly).
Shouldn't you be working? Business must be slow at VA if you've got the time to sit around and troll on Slashdot. I hope for your sake its your coffee break.
Considering VA Linux's whopping 5% marketshare among Linux hardware vendors, according to IDC, I can't say im really surprised. Way to go, by the way. You guys edged past tough big-name Linux vendors like "Fujitsu Siemens" with 3%, and uhh...oh wait, you guys arent doing better than any of the others.. Oh well.
Truth hurts, doesn't it.
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
I've using E with KDE2 off and on since January, both with E as wm in KDE2 and KDE2 apps within E alone. Its takes a little tweaking thats all.
Jonathan Moran
Oink, Oink!!
You are right, of course, but there are a couple of key differences:
The KDE guys have not littered the field with their enemies who have been ruthlessly destroyed or muscled aside for the sake of commercial gain. Also, KDE sells to everyone for the same price (free) rather than having "most-favored" pricing for sycophants and "screw-you" pricing for those that have "transgressed" against them. Finally, KDE does not completely dominate anything in particular, and exist within a movement where doing so is not a favorable objective.
-L
Take some simple application that runs on the console, and manipulates files. If a hacker had a particular itch to have his files manipulated a certain way, then he would take this source code, add a couple of new parameter switches, and the new functionality was born.
However, now, it is a lot more complex. The projects are larger, and are inheriting more structure from their ancestors. I.e. Konqueror relates more to KDE, Gnome apps are relate more to Gnome, and Mozilla had to go for the cross platform look. Now, its not so much that people fix software to scratch an itch, its because they disagree with the way someone is scratching it.
Granted, Gnome, and KDE need their own file managers/web browsers, but that is more because the two do not have the same standards, and once you have multiple desktop environments, then you have multiple apps for that desktop.
Its no longer suitable to just take mozilla code, and a feature here and there. These applications are way beyond tweaking some file manipulation software. We are talking about hugely feature rich applications, and to add those features, it may be easier to rewrite than do s hoddy job up putting a square peg in a round hole.
I.e. Gnome with Bonobo could provide the ability to implement a HTML render in a spreadsheet (Gnumeric). To do this, you need a HTML renderer, and a spreadsheet. You can either take an existing spreadsheet / renderer, fork the code, and make it bonobo aware, or you can just write your own. The problem with the former solution is that the structure of the software may not make it that easy to be Bonobo aware.
I think the number of applications being written makes things pretty exciting, and I think it will take a couple of attempts to get things right. KDE 2, Gnome 2....as Eric Raymond said, be prepared to throw the first one away.
Regards,
Andy
Most people up through the present moment aren't online all the time. They "go online". Imagine a special sound like the Startrek transoprter. Or some cheesey graphic from the mystical pyramid of AOL ca. 1994. It's a magical threshold they cross--or rather that's how it's been. Of course their experience is way different than that of someone whose personal computer is always on and always connected to the Internet, sending its own mail and maybe offering http, ftp for (ab)use.
Since being "online" is a separate, different experience or activity, they have wanted and used Internet apps that do it all in one place. They log on to surf pr0n, and it's nice that their browser alerts them to the fact that there's mail to pick up, because being transients on the network, they aren't going to know any other way. When they're done, they log off and close one app, and only one, and go do their strictly local stuff.
Maybe that preference for kitchen-sink internet interfaces will change, but then again people are used to it now, and they believe it is the simple way to accomplish their online activities. Do I need to go into how they view and value simplicity?
For all the times i have used linux, there existed LYNX. It is fast, supports many goodies (but not all of them) and easy to use. Why people don't keep using it or even GUI'ising it (a simple one not with an e-mail client)
it's not really the same, though somewhat similar.
The difference is that, in the Microsoft case, they were putting in a browser to expand an almost-monopoly in OSes to an almost-monopoly in browsers.
The difference is mostly that
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
*claps*
:)
A great troll!. It sucks you in with a good intro, and keeps you there with things that are actually TRUE. Then BAM! The troll side hits you like a ton of bricks.
This kind of thing makes my work day a lot more fun
Konqueror has not been released - konqueror.org has been.
Besides, you can run it from any desktop environment you want - as long as you have the KDE libraries installed, you don't need to be running KDE's window mangager or any other KDE tools to use Konqueror.
RPMs of a recent CVS snapshot for Red Hat Linux can be found at
http://people.redhat.com/bero/experimen tal/. Konqueror is part of the kdebase package.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
IE3 anywhere had minimal CSS1 support while the first versions of the recommendations were being written.
Cut out the "coverage BEFORE IT WAS EVEN A COMPLETE RECOMMENDATION" part.
Rami
--
rJames.org - illustration
"I have recently read that KDE 2.0 is suppposed to be highly componentilized also. Is KDE using something like bonobo? " :-)
Yes indeed, KDE uses the very powerful component technology called KParts. It's mentionned on www.konqueror.org - you should really read it
As to being a threat to Mozilla, that is certainly not the goal. Providing something that works well (in terms of rendering, memory usage, stability etc.), and providing a choice, are more the goals. And konqueror is much more than 'just' a web browser...
...I just hope that the KDE guys will leave it as an option to use either KHTMLPart or NGLayout as the HTML renderer in Konqueror. That would be great.
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
You get a life, I didn't use my plus one bonus, my default level just happens to be 2. If there were a -1 bonus I'd probably use it for shit like this so I don't have to listen to you little pussies bitch and moan, but there ain't one.
There, maybe this will bring my karma down. If not, someone please -1 me, several times preferably.
Web browser?
file manager?
Document viewer?
Customizable?
Uh... so they want to be Emacs? (somebody had to say it =) )
"You want to kiss the sky? Better learn how to kneel." - U2
Sig:
Barbeque is a noun. Not a verb.
I know this isn't a KDE help site, but I've been baffled by all the KDE2 binaries (RPMs). I can not, for the life of me, locate "qt21" or "at21-devel" anywhere, although I've unearthed enough information to know that they exist somewhere. I can't install any of the new KDE2 stuff (i.e. konqueror, koffice) without these mysterious qt packages, but I can't find them anywhere. Here is what I currently have installed: qt-1.44-15mdk qt-devel-1.44-15mdk qt2-2.1.0-4mdk qt2-devel-2.1.0-4mdk Alas, no "qt21-xxx.rpm" or "qt21-devel-xxx.rpm" to be found. :-(
www.poak.net
I still have a subscription to wired. Why? beacuse it reminds be of the time when WIRED DIDN'T SUCK!
Nice troll... everyone knows there was NEVER a time that Wired didn't suck.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I've not done this, but it may be informative.
Install a Windows98 or NT4 (sp6a) or W2K system.
Install a Linux system, with KDE. Add Konqueror.
Run both for a little while to see how each behaves.
Now remove Konqueror from the Linux box and remove IE from the Windows box. To be fair, reboot both systems. Explore each system again.
Does removing Konqueror have the same effect on Linux with KDE as removing IE from Windows does? If so, then there is a case. Now, not having run the experimnet myself, I don't *know* the result... but I know which way I'd bet.
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
You can split your Explorer window in to various child windows and simultaneouly view web pages, image files, browse your home directory and download from ftp in one parent window. Cool! You can also type in an FTP address, and in Win2K Explorer images will preview to the left of the browse window, but they are a far cry from introducing anything nearly as flexible as Konqueror promises to be.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
I was going to make the lynx remark, but someone already took it. :(
But what I'm wondering, is how low a system do you have? KDE/Qt libs hardly "bog down" a system in my experience. I suppose if you have less than P200/32MB it's an issue, but come now K6's are up to 550 Mhz, and memory is back down to roughly $1US per meg (less if you look a little).
Starting up Mozilla, I show 21MB of memory in use. So that's going to be a stetch for any terribly low-end system. This argument of system resources is just pretty much futile. Even when I was in college, living off my few hundred dollars a month Army National Guard pay, I was able to save and put together a reasonable system for the time.
You're seriously misinformed. Konqueror is not "one gigantic app". In fact, the executable is but a few hundred Kb. Almost *everything* in Konqueror is a component, even the file manager and the web browser if I'm not mistaken. This is the same with IE, Nautilus, Mozilla etc. This breaking-down of functionality actually facilitates debugging, not the opposite as you seem to think :-)
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
First beta (1.90, "Konfucious")in a week, gold (2.0, "Kopernicus") in September.
It seems pretty obvious to my why it's flame bait. If he were to give some reasons why it sucks, then that'd be different, but just to say it sucks is baiting flames, intentionally or not.
the fundamental rule of KDE (and Gnome) development is "We hate Microsoft, but we copy their every move anyway."
Not quite.
I can't speak for all of us, but my version of that rule (and I have the impression that most other KDE/Gnome developers share it) is more like
"Microsoft is bad, but that doesn't mean everything they do is bad".
If Microsoft comes up with something good (which has, by the way, almost never been the case - virtually all of the good stuff they have has been copied from someone else), the fact that Microsoft has it is not a reason not to re-implement it.
Having the option to make the UI look a lot like theirs is also a good thing because most future Linux/*BSD/... users are Windows users right now, and they don't want to relearn everything.
For those of us who don't like this UI look, it can easily be switched to something nicer.
Both KDE and Gnome are reasonably configurable about looks by now.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
It's the "much improved" successor of that browser.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
What does e-mail have to do with a browser?
Mail.com, Coldmail.com, Hotmail.com, Yahoo.com, AOL.com webmail, etc. The good ones have encrypted login pages.
Will I retire or break 10K?
...not another fucking browser that will make my life hell. (As a web developer)
Rocket science is easy. Neurosurgery, now *that's* difficult.
I wonder how long before MS does something similar and calls it an "Innovation"
I'd call that the Win98 explorer.exe, where you can type a Web URL into the pathname bar.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Honestly, I dislike M$ as much as the next guy, but I really can't get to appreciate Mozilla a whole lot. It crashed often, seems bug-filled, it's huge, come on! What are these programmers doing?
Call this a flame if you want, but I want a slim browser that supports all the latest features. KDE seem to be on a good path to that end.
Never checked that button in my life. Read the FAQ on how default posting levels work moron.
Yeh, I know how it works. I also know what the +1 box is for. Just beacuse a certan number of your posts were good at one point in time dosn't mean that all of them will be all the time. If you want to say something usless, click the box.
When I read a +2 I don't want to see a one line comment saying "Read the FAQ...moron". I don't litter in the +2 space please.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
- This isn't trying to be cross platform in the same was as Mozilla is and this has a head start in terms of simplicity.
- A lot of the features claimed in the article are targets, not where the package is right now
Knowing how good KDE hackers are, I'm sure this will turn out to be every bit as good as they claim it is and for KDE users, it will be a better fit to that environment because of the component technology it uses. But whatever sucess Konqueror scores, there is still a place for Mozilla.--
A casual glance at the website indicates that it is a new development, unrelated to kfm.
There was no indication of when this wonderful beast could finally be up and running. Reading between the lines in some places, it is not ready yet.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
If you use the KDE2 alphas, remember to report any bugs you can (after checking the bugs aren't already fixed). All KDE apps have a bug reporting form in their Help menus.
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
It's not quite true - konqueror is really quite usable by now.
...), and do you call 4.0 stable?)
KOffice could do a lot of interesting things when the first screenshots were put up - it just turned out the technology used was not reliable, so it was rewritten.
Also, this type of "marketing" (I wouldn't call it that) is, to an extent, required - we need users because in opensourceland, users == developers, and you can't get something like KOffice with only one person.
(By the way, I think it's odd you'd mention XFree86 as someone who doesn't do it - did you forget all the time before 4.0 ("we'll have 3D support then",
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
I have played with linux and have had problems when trying to upgrade to Netscape 4.7.2 . If it were not for the built in KDE browser I would have been browserless. The only function that the old browser did not perform was FTP downloads. I had to use the Command Line version of FTP to do any downloads. I will look forward to an upgraded version of an already worthwhile product.
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
Hmmm. XML based configuration of menus and other stuff; support for ECMA script; support for an object embedding and linking model... Stir in Reiser FS (to handle data storage at the file system level instead of the file level)...
I can see this assemblage of stuff morphing into a VB like application platform.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Yes, KDE 2.0 uses a component architecture... haven't looked at nautilus much, but basically the way KDE 2.0 and Konqueror works is that pretty much everything is a component.
This is a quote from an interview with Mosfet (one of the KDE 2.0 developers)
"The main difference is now KDE2 is heavily component based, focusing of the browser. All of the KOffice applications (KWord, KPresenter KIllustrator, KSpread, KImageShop, KIllustrator, KChart, and KFormula) as well as many other KDE applications such as the PS/PDF viewer, mpeg and image viewers, and DVI viewers are all components now - internet transparent and embeddable in the browser. You can even embed the terminal application in the browser and change directories using the arrow buttons ;-) Pretty cool. KDE easily boasts the most extensive and complete component model support for Unix desktops."
The interview is located here
.technomancer
.technomancer
THE difference is that you can run Linux without Konqi/KDE, but you couldn't run Windows without Internet Explorer (as said by MS). That was what the case was about.
What the future will be is the embedding they are doing right now with KDE and Gnome, everything is a component and if you want HTML support in your texteditor, KLABAM! Just embed that HTML component.
Thimo
--
Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux!
The objection in Microsoft's case is that the browser if foisted upon everyone who only wants the operating system. When you try to patch the operating system by installing a service pack for Windows NT, it requires you to install Internet Explorer. The browser is similarly bundled with a variety of other Microsoft software. You cannot install IIS nor Exchange without first installing Internet Explorer. I find this less disturbing because IIS and Exchange are not core components of the operating system, but it still indicative of a trend.
The same objection will never be made in the case of Linux. You will always be able to have Linux without whatever you don't want. Download, configure, build. Make your own distribution. It is what RMS is always saying but nobody is listening: Free Software is about Freedom. With Linux, KDE, GNOME, Mozilla, and the rest, you get to decide.
Never checked that button in my life. Read the FAQ on how default posting levels work moron.
IS THIS NEW KDE BROWSER, SIMILAR TO LYNX (TEXT-ONLY) OR HTML-BASED? WHEN THIS BROWSER IS RELEASED, WILL NETSCAPE AND INTERNET EXPLORER CEASE TO EXIST -- I PREFER TEXT-ONLY BROWSERS
DEVO-X
Man this thread brings back memories.. I got my c64 when I was 4 (I'm 21 now), watched Peewee, and Computer Chronicles too. I remember on CC when they just started getting a lot of applications switching over to Windows, and the guy said "Hey, it works in Windows, I _like_ that". And so started my years as a drone Windows user until 1996...
:)
I also remember learning about Einstein's Theory of Relativity on PBS on the weekends when I was in junior high.. with the show switching between the professor in the classroom, the semi-CG, and the shots of scientists in the 1800's walking around with scrolls.
That said, I use Communicator because it's reasonably fast and supports SSL. It seems to be the best browser, even with all its faults, available to Linux users. That doesn't keep me from cursing when it crashes :-)
Care to share where some of the worst bombs are? :-) Seriously, I've noticed that the latest version of Explorer on the Mac and Mozilla on, well, anything, do an almost perfect job at CSS1, at least according to the w3.org test suite
That's the sound of the market not insisting on standards compliance. But note that things are really beginning to catch up now. Within a year, I susptect sites that don't effectively use CSS (including slashdot) are going to look increasingly dorky.
Really, really hard I think. Seriously, once you start getting to support CSS at the level of units in ems, exes picas, mm and pixels when your output is some random CRT, I think it would make the strong weep.
CSS3 is, alas, way out there; there's not even a unified proposal yet
I suspect that the first universal thing we'll see out of CSS3 is the paged media stuff, which is already sort of available in Explorer.
Doing style right is hard, and I think everybody can see now that it's worth doing right. At least, I hope that's the case...
Babar
So it's a copy of Magellan for KDE? Not that that would be a bad thing. I really need a better IMAP reader than Netscape. IMAP seems to be the one protocol lacking support by most all of the free mail programs. Guess I'll have to finish that IMAP Ioslave in KDE. ;)
"However, I have to agree with this poster. There is far TOO much duplication of effort. I can see the need for four or even five email clients to account for individual taste but the twelve to twenty out there in the world is bordering on silly. Instead, we could all be better focused on moving aspects of applications and the interface forward."
I think that our time can be better spent by writing software, rather than repeating how `useless' the efforts of our peers are.
Writing twelve to twenty e-mail clients is more useful than saying, `you people are silly' and writing nothing.
-rozzin.
I still have a subscription to wired. Why? beacuse it reminds be of the time when WIRED DIDN'T SUCK!
:(
God wired sucks now, its like a mag for neo-yuppies. Terrible. A while back they posed this big artical about how great Al Gore was for tech, they actualy prased Gore's support of the DMCA. Tottaly sucky. Wired News, now a part of lycos, now a part of disny, I think, is still pretty idealistc still though.
Old wired: information tech is cool
New wired: information tech is cool 'cuz it makes us more money
Lame, lame, lame
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
-- Fred Brooks _The Mythical Man Month_
Am inclined to agree. They've done it because it's 'cool' and shows off the elegance of the underlying componentised design, I guess, but the very screenshots they use to show this off clearly demonstrate why this is a usability nightmare:
Here you've got several unrelated applications munged together in panes of one window, with one menu bar and tool bar for all of them, but one status bar for each of them, which seems unrelated to the content pane. It's unclear how the panes relate to each other and how changes in one might affect the others and the rest of the system.
The advantage of this over having separate windows which the user can manage themselves? None AFAICT.
Konq's a great web browser though. I easily prefer even v1 to Netscape 4.
--
This comment was brought to you by And Clover.
I would like to enlighten all the people who are complaining that KDE is going the Microsoft way and trying to make Konqueror one huge app.
A) In this case, the Microsoft way is the right way.
B) Konqueror and to a slightly lesser extent, IE, are not one huge app.
By integrating access to all sorts of data, the user experiance is greatly simplified and made much more efficient. Maybe it's just me, but browsing some files, typing in a URL to download a file, then going back to the file manager to unzip it and install is sheer coolness (or Koolness!)Normally, this efficiency would come at the expense of speed and bloat, but not in this case. Such is the magic of COM (or KOM, what KDE calls its clone if it) Because Konqueror and IE are implemented as a set of COM objects, these can be loaded at will. Unlike Bonobo (which is a damn ugly architecture, IMHO) large portions of applications with a significant amount of glue inbetween are not loaded. Instead, the system is built on a set of small reusable object. In some cases the overall bloat of the system can actually go down! Take, for example, MS Word. When IE browses over to a MS word file, the MS word editing object is loaded and inserted into IE. If you had wanted to see it, you would have had to open up word anyway, or a redundant version of the interface would have had to have been built into IE. In the case both word and IE browsing a word document are loaded, then only one copy of the editing object is loaded into memory. See, magic! This object-ness can become even more interesting. Imagine a system API implemented as a set of COM objects. (Kinda like DirectX without the hungarian notation.) Now the system is VERY cleanly extendible, with no dependencies on a specific version of the API and no ulgy _createWindowEx2ExtendedEnhancedAFX()-type function calls. In addition to all that, it's fast. Common COM local object calls are about has efficient was a C++ virtual function call (it's a deference through a v-table) Compare this to all the marshalling and dispatching inherent in Cobra, and you'll see why COM is so nifty. So it's fast, flexible, and can save memory. What's not to like?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Just tried them both in today's CVS snapshot - it can deal with dynamicdrive.com perfectly,
netmeister.org doesn't work (black page), but a quick check at validator. w3.org shows why...
Please try making the pages more standards-compliant.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Microsoft's bundling of IE with Windows was illegal because of Microsoft's monopoly. Windows has such a large market share that bundling IE was unfair competition to Netscape. KDE can hardly be considered a monopoly so bundling Konquerer with it is not really a threat to other companies.
Add the following to your .Xdefaults
Netscape*toolBar.search.isEnabled: false
Netscape*toolBar.destinations.isEnabled: false
Netscape*toolBar.myshopping.isEnabled: false
If you'd like a "Find" button to search for text in the current page/frame add:
Netscape*toolBar.numUserCommands: 1
Netscape*toolBar.userCommand1.commandName: findInObject
Netscape*toolBar.userCommand1.labelString: Find
Netscape*toolBar.userCommand1.commandIcon: Find
Enjoy.
You get a life, I didn't use my plus one bonus, my default level just happens to be 2. If there were a -1 bonus I'd probably use it for shit like this so I don't have to listen to you little pussies bitch and moan, but there ain't one.
WTF? Your +1 bonus is on by default - it is turned off by the checkbox above the submit button. Please, stop making nonsense posts using your +1 bonus.
I will now post this without the +1 bonus I have, since it is not worth using it.
It doesn't seem to have a mail client and news reader tacked on it! Woohoo.
It just browses stuff whether it be the web, ftp or local files.
That looks like a pretty nifty browser. I particularly like how it allows you to split the browser window into multiple frames for simultaneously viewing a web site, an ftp site, and your local disk. Drag and drop ftp within the browser is kind of cool.
:)
However, I use Window Maker, and I don't want to bog down my system with the QT libs. So it's not really something for me.
Maybe one of the Mozilla-based browsers that come out next year will be right for someone in my situation. I just want something light-weight that'll handle HTML 4.0, javascript, and the other standards-based stuff. I really don't care for the proprietary things like Realmedia, Flash, and so on.
I'll take the first 100% standards-based, light-weight, speedy, crash-proof browser for Linux that comes along.
Are you seriously that blind? There is a "No Score +1 Bonus" button under every reply once you have the +1 Bonus. I'm currently using it.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
Actually you can't do that. Everything in KDE2 depends on the KDE2 libraries. You have to install a good chunk of KDE2 or nothing at all.
From my comparisons, Gnome, while very nice in it's visually appealling, tool rich, comfortable style, has a 'mismatch' is its use of Enlightenment as it's window manager. Now, before you start lobbing grenades, let me explain. Enlightenment (which I do like VERY much) is more than just a window manager. It is also a session manager. It has many of the same features as Gnome (pager support, launcher 'tool bars', styles, themes support, and etc.). The problem is that the two packages are TOTALLY unaware of each other.
Example, if you change the background with E!, Eterm works, but gnome Terminal crashes. If you set it with Gnome, then Eterm isn't aware of backgrounds (or it displays a transparency that is not based on the background).
I actually found that I like E! more than Gnome, but I miss the 'ease' of customization.
KDE, for all of it's short comings (qt libraries, very 'windows-like' style, lack of KDE-aware apps, slim documentation (at least on line) and etc.) It provides a total, consistant, integrated environment for someone to use.
What can I say, I want it all..!
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
Yes, I am that blind.
Actually, now I'm just doing it to piss people off. But nobody seems to want to moderate me
Surely what we want in a browser is the ability to extract the really juicy bits out of our favorite web pages and format them intelligently. I don't care much for banner ads or framesets - just give me the meat!
ftp.kde.org works for me...
If you still can't get there, you might want to try
http://people.redhat.com/bero/experimen tal/
or
http://www.nebsllc.com/kde/ftpkde2/curr ent/
for current KDE snapshots.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
You're right, and I usually dont. However, I know who the prick is who posted it. And it makes allll the difference. He's lucky I haven't decided to out him yet.
Yours in science,
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
How is it's development?
Me, I want a browser with support for HTML 4, CSS1, and perhaps XML.
It could happen with Lynx but will it?
So it's a copy of Magellan for KDE?
If you want to think of it that way, go ahead. :^) I can assure you that the Evolution developers are thinking of it as a substitute for Outlook, not Magellan. But since they all seem to be in about the same application space, it doesn't really matter.
If you want a free software IMAP reader, and you're adventurous, you could always try Mutt or GNUS in the meantime. :^)
"They've done it because it's 'cool' and shows off the elegance of the underlying componentised design"
Wrong. They've done it because despite what you might think, it's actually USEFUL to be able to look at a word processed document with relevant information to a spreadsheet or a presentation. The frames idea also works very well- and please, do EVERYONE a favor and don't make judgments before you actually try something out. Until you have actually tried KDE2 and Konqueror, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make comments like:
"Here you've got several unrelated applications munged together in panes of one window, with one menu bar and tool bar for all of them, but one status bar for each of them, which seems unrelated to the content pane..."
Something that sadly can't be shown by regular screenshots (unless you use GIFs- and there are NO GIFs at konqueror.org) is that you DON'T have one toolbar and one menubar for all of the frames- the toolbars and menu options change depending on which window has the focus. It's one of the most impressive things I've ever seen to watch the toolbars flesh themselves out- they're "smart" enough to know what to do in most given situations. At this point, everything is NOT completely stable, but it IS stable enough to use for filemanaging and a decent amount of web browsing. It also crashes less than most of the Mozilla builds have (for me, on the same system).
I run KDE2 24/7 and I have had no strange problems with it- it has never reacted badly to my display (running on XFree86 4.0) nor has it corrupted files or done anything horrible. It's usable right now- not half what it will be when it's finally released, but it's usable. The code is there, and the design is there. This IS something to be excited about, everyone...
The RSA patent expires in September. Then, we'll be able to put openssl right into Konqueror, Lynx and other web browsers, AFAIK.
--
Anyone know if/when RSA 128 bit encryption will be suported?
I need a secure web connection at least 6 times a day, and I'm dying to ditch netscape.
Whats the point of having a stable OS when the app I use the most crashes every 5 clicks...
------
www.chowda.net
------
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
Heck, you don't even need to install X, if you don't want... and even if you do, there's no guarantee that you've installed any WM or apps for it 8^)
Seriously - KDE2 looks a real Good Thing. People can complain about how it looks all Windows and everything, but KDE 1.1.1 is far more functionally appealing than any MS GUI to date, and is flexible enough for my tastes (well, almost). Compiles better than Gnome under AIX, so I use it at work... and therefore I use it at home, in order to keep myself a little consistent.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Assuming you are the same AC as before, and that you *really are* serious, go to http://www.tucows.com/ and then on via the operating system of your choice (try win95) to the software menus.
There, you will see hundreds of applications; freeware, shareware and (I think) demos doing everything their authors could imagine. A lot of them duplicate each other. Welcome to the real world.
As for Ivory Towers, where are you? Cuba? China? A company that only uses M$ products? Duplication is normal, otherwise we would all be using whatever text processors were available in 1985.
Konquerer is another web browser with lots of lovely add-ons. If it is the best, I will move to it. If not, Mozilla should be ready by then.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
One thing Microsoft does wrong, and kde 'borrows', is the [X] button on windows. The [X] should not be next to the maximize and minimize button! The default should be on the left, or otherwise out of the way. It is the wrong place for a close target.
Lowmag.net
From what I've read, and from talking with a few developers, it's more that they use the good ideas from Microsoft, Apple, other free desktop projects, etc. A level-headed person will admit that Microsoft has had a lot of good ideas (and a lot of ideas that weren't their own but that they put together in a good way).
----
Celebrate the finer things in life
You have to take into account the tactics MS used to stop distributors preloading Netscape, when the customers had asked for it. Also, the pressure on developers to write to the MS JVM etc. etc.
Despite what MS would have you believe, the case isn't mostly (or even mainly) about the software MS make, it's about the dubious business practices they resort to when the open market comes up with the wrong answer.
take my karma, please!
Flame all you want about SuSE 6.3 Evaluation - after all, it is just that, an evaluation CD. They obviously had to make choices about what was to be included on the one CD, and it was either KDE or GNOME afaik.
However please note that the full boat SuSE does include GNOME, in fact my SuSE 6.4 system is running both KDE 1.1.2 and GNOME (maybe October release?) quite nicely. I don't like either of them - instead preferring a straight Windowmaker arrangment.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
html4.0 is almost finished.
css1 is almost completed.
css2 has partial support.
Java applets work.
JavaScript still needs some work.
They are working at blinding speeds, though.
Try it out for yourself if you really want to know.
-- Thrakkerzog
I know KDE isn't the operating system, but it serves the same purpose for Linux that the Windows interface (Windows Explorer) serves for Windows.
I don't care which browser I use so long as it returns me to the exact spot on the page from where I originally followed a link when I hit the [back] button :) So yes, currently I use the built-in browser in Staroffice and wish that Mozilla/Netscape et al would build in this feature.
No thanks. I don't smoke anymore.
The KDE html widget was started well before Mozilla was born as an open source project. Gnome took the same approach: have you ever noticed that the Gnome help browser has its own html rendering engine?
When both of these were started, there was no lightweight, modern, open source rendering widget available for the approrpiate language and toolkit, and therefore both projects developed one.
KDE had the head start, and thus their widget was getting pretty capable by the time Moz was OSed. Gnome were a little behind, and therefore it was worth them switching to Mozilla (And recently this work has been taken up by Eazel for Nautilus).
The result: both Konqueror and Nautilus look as though they will be pretty capable. If they maintain some sort of parity, I guess who uses which will depend on which desktop they use (and therefore to some extent which Linux distro).
The competition will encourage developers to provide good standards support, and to fix any deficiencies in their project. Neither side will be able to argue that 'You need 64Mb for a modern web browser' if the competitor runs in 32Mb.
So I am convinced that Konqueror is a good thing, even though I expect to be browsing on Nautilus a year from now.
Until Linux as a whole is standardised by a central body incorporated under law, it will never succeed in drawing in users who want an OS that they can do something with, rather than people who want a toy they can spend all of their time configuring.
That's precisely what is *not* needed. Free Software and Open Standards are all about *interoperability*. For example - Corel might be producing the Linux distribution you want: it works out of the box and requires very little tinkering.
However, I would expect to be able to exchange files with you, created on (say) a Debian box, or a BSD box, or a Linux box created for myself from scratch. It's all about choice.
You are free to use a 100% KDE or Gnome setup if you so choose: you will find that if you only use Gnome applications, for example, they will work together very well.
... but it's a choice. I you then decide to use Athena Ghostview, you have that option. Isn't that fair enough?
--
It's not complete and bugfree, and it has several flaws, but trying it out just to see the huge improvements from KDE1 is fun! :-)
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
Well, I realized the potential of kfm/Konqi early on. It is very tightly integrated with the KDE desktop, which makes file management, downloads and browsing so easy.
A few days I switched from Netscape 4.72 to MS IE 5.01, for several reasons:
- NS 4.72 is really unstable. Crashes often, and slow.
- No Arabic support.
Well, Mozilla is not there yet (I have M15, and it is promising) but there is no Arabic out yet (although there is a BIDI project for Mozilla).So, I switched to MS IE 5.01, and I like it. It is fast and does Arabic very well.
Now that Konqi can do that, I will consider going back to Linux when this is out.
Of course there are other issues of using Linux as my permanent desktop:
- Not everthing is Arabic enabled.
- Many apps are just Windows, including Yahoo Messenger Voice Chat, MediaRing, Dialpad,
...etc. These things are great for staying in touch.
So, things are promising, but we are not there yet!2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
No, Microsoft got in trouble for leveraging its monopolistic level of control of the operating system market to destroy competitors in other markets. The browser integration was designed specifically to make it impossible to get Windows without IE, and thus reduce incentive to get Netscape, by putting the Windows GUI, user shell and IE into one big congealed lump.
In a technical sense, though, it makes sense to integrate browser components with other parts of a system. For example, a HTML control could be made into a general GUI object, and used from things such as help browsers; graphic file decoders, a JavaScript engine and such may also be modularised as that. Which doesn't necessarily mean putting a web-navigation toolbar on every window in the system or having directories shown by default as "web pages".
As for non-GUI-dependent applications, they can be useful. (I read all my mail with mutt in an xterm.) Though as far as console-based browsers go, they're unlikely to advance far beyond where Lynx is today.
If you want a lean WM to go with your Gnomes, try Sawmill, a Lisp-extensible WM. It has a gtk+ configuration utility and is arguably the most Gnome-aware WM there is.
return -ENOSIG;
What about XML? This is a key technology and companies need to get on their horsey to catch up with M$ in supporting it. Just my $0.02
Have a Happy.
This is because the fundamental rule of KDE (and Gnome) development is "We hate Microsoft, but we copy their every move anyway."
kfm renders horribly? Nah. Not for the pages I visit anyhow. Does it have the Netscape Java bug? Is it Netscape? No way- it fixes this problem (currently) by not having Java! I turn that cruft off on all the other browsers I use anyways, so I don't miss it. kfm is a light-weight, efficient, stable file manager/browser and is a sheer pleaasure to use. hopefully Konqueror will be the same.
I'll call a fig newton a cookie if I want to
Arabs don't know how to write code
hahahaha!
Once again, this is about choice. People who prefer multiple toplevel windows can do that with konqueror, no problem. Those who prefer splitting one window so that it shows 2 or 3 directories (local or remote) can do so. IMHO it helps a lot to reduce the number of windows opened (and you can drag-and-drop without having to worry about "how to reach that window hidden behind the current one"). But that's just me. If you prefer separate windows, you can do that. You can even choose to launch several processes if you want.
Yeah - I think the button should be 'add my +1 bonus'. I've had it for a long time, and stopped using it (mostly) several months ago, after a flurry of 'overrated' negative moderation each time I did use it. I use it now and then when I really want a post to trickle a little higher up, but not usually. It seems to attract more trolls than anything else. It shouldn't be abused, that's for sure, but it shouldn't be the default behavior, either - that's half the problem - sometimes I forget to click the button, and it ends up that way. Oh well, but the system is backward.
Of course, it seems like most people don't understand the +1 thing anyway (nobody reads anymore). "How did this get moderated up to a 2?" isn't seen as often as it used to, but still too often...
[sound of clicking the 'No Score +1 Bonus' button...]
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
My other
Every month, I shell out the $7 for the printed version of Wired magazine
A subscription is only $12 these days (I think they're trying to boost their readership now that they have so many more ads). $1/issue delivered to your snail mailbox is a heckuva lot better than $7 from the newsstand.
--
my lists
The worst thing MS did to Win98 was the browser integration. Business ethics aside for the moment, it was simply archetecturally a bad idea. OK, so one window now handles web pages and local files. That means I have a Stop button on my file manager (for local files, that is a complete waste). And what does this get me?
The integration of the file manager and browser in KDE 1.x is, IMHO, even worse. I use my Linux system to develop web sites. Many a time I've had to go into a folder to rename a file or move a file around, but, OH, WAIT! I have a file in that folder named index.html. That means I don't get to see the contents of the directory. The only way I can do what I need to do then is via the command line. (And no, I don't believe the command line is holy. If Linux is ever going to make it on the desktop and be usable by anyone but geeks and Slashdot readers, then the text interface must be unnecessary for 100% of daily activities and at least 80% of maintenance activities.)
I like the idea of a small, fast, stable browser that does HTML4, CSS1, CSS2, JavaScript, and so on. (IE5 still has some HTML4 bugs in it, I've found.) And if it can be easily ported to other systems as well as Linux (vis, Windows and Mac), it would just about be enough to unseat Netscape from my list of always running apps. I don't like the way Netscape ties everything in together either (browser, e-mail, newsreader, etc.). But if I'm going to have to switch over to the command line just to be able to move a file that happens to be in a directory that contains index.html, then no sale. Regardless of what the back-end code is, it's the user-end that will make or break the program for me.
(I happen to like double-clicking to open a file. What's wrong with that?)
--GrouchoMarx
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Thanks for the effort. I will try to make it better. But the validator gave me a weird error:
... images/planet_on.gif" height="19" width="22" name="left_link1" border= ...
Line 398, column 369:
Error: there is no attribute "NAME"
This is an image. Why does it complain about this one image and not about the others (all of them have names - which, AFAIK, is a valid attribute for an image)?
-- "Tradition is the illusion of permanence."
What is it, and why is it so great?
Well, I live in Canada, so it's $7CDN which is actually equal to about $3.85USD. (-:
Seriously though, it's cheaper and A LOT faster to buy it at the newsstand for me.
Well this is just 100% wrong. What can I say to prove it to you ? Nothing I'm afraid. But that's the truth: the KOffice code has NEVER been written to make screenshots only - but to produce a useable GPL'ed Office suite.
The delay between the early shots and the release is mainly due to the lack of developers. Feel free to give a hand (or both).
"If I had looked" ? Well, I have looked, mind you. I'm even responsible for a small part of it.
What pisses ME off is that someone can think that code could be written only to show impressive screenshots. That kind of nonsense doesn't exist here.
thanks for the tip :)
Konqueror actually supports encryption already, if OpenSSL is installed.
The export restrictions are no longer there, the RSA patent will expire soon (and has never been valid outside of the US), and since Konqueror doesn't use RSA directly (that's OpenSSL's part), it's not a problem.
As for the component architecture, KDE is using a shared library approach (the embedded widgets are actually in the same process), which is functionally similar to what bonobo does, but very different technically.
Both approaches have their good and bad sides - bonobo is more general, the KDE approach is more lightweight (and therefore faster) and probably more stable.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
I am sorry and I may be flamed for my stupidity,
but isn't this kind of what Microsoft got in
trouble in the first place? Supplying a
pre-installed browser with aGUI (OK it isnt't
an entire OS but still...)?
I am just in favor of non-GUI-dependant applications...
Praying
You're right. It's kinda sad that, since and because of KDE, free software is now also playing this crappy marketing game : spectacular announcement, fancy screenshots, and "advanced" technical article describing how cool the software will be, and then you have to wait for several months (or even 1 or 2 year) until actual working software is released... and very often in a premature way. There was a time when a free software *.0 version was supposed to be reliable. What's even sadder, the actual software functionnalities and architecture are usually far below initial buzz words component-ORB-modular-reusable-transparent-interop erable-blabla
expectations.
Remember the KOffice buzz? There has been fancy screenshots with embedded components for 2 years now, there has also been technical articles by Stadlbauer describing the "sexy-futistic-bleeding edge-blabla" architecture one year ago (actually, it's going to be exactly the same as Microsoft OLE/COM, talk about a revolution). And still nothing is working properly. This is ridiculous.
Some Gnome developpers told me they felt forced to behave that way too, because of the KDE competition. They recognize this sometimes goes way to far (remember Gmome 1.0?), but they pretend things would be much different if KDE was...
Fortunately the BSD folks don't do that yet. Nor does the FSF, nor does Linus ("show me the code!"). Nor did Kimball and Mathis with the Gimp. Nor does the XEmacs team. Nor does GNUStep, nor does Berlin, nor does XFree86. I hope it will remain this way. But KDE does, and Gnome follows. So do commercial distributions which now release a new version every 4 or 5 months, full of new functionnalities before their bugs got fixed.
Ok, I'm not a KDE developer, but I read the mailing list (you can learn a lot about a successful project by watching how they handle things...)
/. ad nausaim :-)
:-)
;-)
;-) )
qt libraries
Now under the QPL, themable like GTK, close enough to "free" to be considered free blah blah blah. This issue has been beaten into
windows-like
Have you looked at the KDE2 screen shots? A lot less windows like
lack of KDE-aware apps
Yeah...it seems as if there's a lot more GTK/Gnome apps out there...hopefully, that'll change
slim documentation
Most of the builtin KDE help is complete (at least w/ KDE 1.1.2...I need more hd space to install a KDE2 snapshot..then I can tell you about that for sure
What do you want online? Devel docs are up (developer.kde.org and www.kdevelop.org).
Sorry if I've messed anything up here...its too early in the morning...
--------------------------
Oh come on--Pee Wee's Playhouse was a saturday morning ritual! If you were a kid in the 80's, you know how bad saturday morning cartoons got around 1986.. They were just sad and lame. Pee-Wee's Playhouse was the only original thing on TV at the time, and kicked ass. Unless you consider "The Adventures Of O.G. Readmore" crap to be awesome television. I thought it was for slow kids who couldnt handle normal TV.
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
SSL support is there (if you have installed OpenSSL when compiling Konqueror).
XHTML (I presume this is what you mean with XML?) is not yet fully supported, but most pages written in XHTML display well in Konqueror (to a renderer, there's not much of a difference between HTML 4.0 and XHTML 1.0).
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
I was composing my previous post, but was dragged
away by a friend, therefore an anonymous coward
saw the opportunity of posting before I could.
Blast him!
Praying...
And I bet I can make just as many bugs in C++ as I can in C :))
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Finally we have more choice ! I was kinda stuck in the Netscape-only world until now, and now we have a full featured browser that does supports a lot of recent technologies and offers a lot of integration.
:)
I'm not saying it's better/worse than Mozilla, I just like the fact that it is DIFFERENT !
Go Free Software !
KFM does do ftp. Just use an FTP URL like ftp://ftp.foo.org/pr0n/ to get to the pr0n directory of ftp.foo.org as an anonymous user. To connect with a username/password, use ftp://luser@ftp.foo.org/pr0n.
Once you are connected, you can browse around in your nice, GUI KFM window.
I dislike netscape. There, I've said it. I addmit to this sin. It crashes, it's slow and the 'buy' buttun in the place where the 'stop' button used to be is just... delightfull.
I already use KFM sometimes, when I don't want a full-featured browser. If konkeror turns out to be all of what is expected, I might as well buy^H^H^Hstop using netscape.
Almost; I think that the real difference is that you can't even install Windows (98) without installing IE. Under Linux, there's no need for KDE/Konqueror to even be on the install disk.
Basically, with Windows, you are forced to install IE (so why bother with any other browser?), while with Linux, you don't need to know that KDE/Konqueror even exist.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Can you really call something released when the only way to get it is by installing a pre-alpha window manager?
I hate to rain on your trolling, but your post is not recursive. It requires user input and then redisplays itself, that would be more of a useless callback than recursion...
Konqi 2000 R-R-R-Ready To Ass-s-s-s-st You, Pee-Wee!
:)
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
Linux is Free Software.
KDE & Konqueror are Open Source ( and, if you are willing to forget their dependency from QT, Free Software too[maybe] ).
This means that, if there is any wicked dependency or relationship between the above system components, you can edit the code, remove it and publish it under the same licence. Maybe not you or me. But any company/organization which feel cheated by the wicked dependency could. Then users will choose the version they like.
Try that with M$oft products.
Ciao
----
FB
If we have enough popular browsers, people will realize that they don't have to design their site 10 times, they can just do it once and everyone can view it. There is entirely too much abuse of useless java apps, useless javascript requirements, useless flash, and a bunch of other crap that looks pretty but makes your website less usable.
Well, this is why Mozilla is open source - file a bug (there is a type that is used for feature requests) at BugZilla! This is what open source is all about! I mean, it only takes a couple of minutes to do...
Check out Greg's Bridge Page!
Well first of all, I would like to question what makes it a threat to mozilla? It is all well and good that kde has its own filemanager/browser, things that are pretty standard these days, but will it be a great browser? I personally do not think so. Sure Konqueror will be usable but it will lack the ever important crypto in the source version. Crypto binaries are a option I suppose. But my point is that the a pure Konqueror will not allow the user to order stuff through encrypted channels or even read e-mail in some cases. Perhaps I am missing the whole point in general but why praise a browser that few people have really ever even tried? I would think that less than a tenth of the number of people who have tried a mozilla/netscape 6 release have tried this konqueror thing- it is not battle proven. Since the original post mentioned mozilla, I have to mention that the GNOME team is/has integrated mozilla into their filemanager of the future, nautilus. I know that GNOME has bonobo which is responsible for its component architecture, including the mozilla integration, but I have recently read that KDE 2.0 is suppposed to be highly componentilized also. Is KDE using something like bonobo?
"Internet Explorer is not demonstrably the current 'best of breed' Web browser"
Real men dump cores! Read my journal, I am neat.
Konqi is really cool as a web browser - I use it as browser of choice when I'm in Linux. It's at least 200x faster than NS4.x, which is a dog. My question is about multi-threading. I'm used to BeOS (it's dangerous) and used to doing crazy things like browsing multiple windows at once, because each is in a different thread. Konqi doesn't seem to be as responsive with multiple windows. Do you plan to add any mulitthreading soon? Sometimes I feel like one out of two processors is going to waste...
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---------------------------------
Visit
I must say, I'm impressed. The interface looks clean. The program seems to have covered all the basics from file management, web browsing, ftp transfer, image viewing, and document previewing which are all things that should be hamdled by a.... hmmm?
What would you call it? The standard terms File Manager and Web Browser conjure completely different visions of applications functionality.
I wonder how long before MS does something similar and calls it an "Innovation"? And before some High Priest of Redmond jumps all over me saying that IE5 already does it, think again and read up on the app. It does a few things IE5 doesn't do very well or at all.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Would it help you if you saw it as naked capitalism: 'May the best product win'?
This has nothing to do with capitalism. For examples see Microsoft.
Capitalism is about everyone trying to make the most money. And most of the people losing. Forget about the American dream. It's has not worked for ages. (If it ever worked at all)
Back ontopic.
The Konqueror seems like a nice browser judging from the screenshots. One thing I don't understand is the idea that in endorses the Everything is a browser-ideology. I don't understand why anyone would want that kind of UI.
I agree however with the original posters idea that we don't need another browser that is competing with all the others. check Mnemonic for a good example. GPL'd and extensible. Designed to be toolkit independent.
Code reuse should be one of Open Source/Free Software's greatest gains.
My own rant: Flash, images, Javascript, whatever are crap, but not intrinsically useless. Webmasters often use them needlessly, but it's good to have a browser capable of handling them if one day you need to. As IE5 can, most amateur webmaster will use flash, java and other crap if you need to browse their site, you'll get nothing of your surf if you stick to an imcompatible browser. Fortunately, we don't have to consult amateur site often, but it can happen. It's most a matter of web design than a matter of browser capacity (on a personnal side, I jokingly made up a Strict Code of Internet Ethics to which my home site will apply).
Oh, and html means HyperText anyway: text with hyperlinks and formatting. I don't have experienced gopher, but from what I've heard it lacks links and formatting.
sigmentation fault
If you read the web page you soon realize that Konqueror is more than just a web browser, it's view and file manager as well. Sound familiar? Internet explorer does this for windows and this has been one of the arguments against Microsoft in the recent court case. I personally believe that MS and now KDE have got it right on this point, many years ago their was a similar argument about GUI's being bundled with the OS but most would object to the absence of one now. I am expecting the same to happen with browser functionality, all desktop operating systems will go this way eventually and one-day we will look back and wonder what the fuss was about.
Evolution is the GNOME email, calendar, and contact manager. Think of it as Outlook on Linux and on steroids, and you'll get the idea. Check out the Evolution page at Helix Code for details.
This is very bad and it violates the Unix tradition of having many powerful, independent tools. Then again, so does Emacs....
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Your example of downloading a 10-meg file from an NFS server is also incorrect. For a download of that size, a throbber isn't appropriate; you need a full-fledges dialog for something that big, or at least a progress bar. Something so you know how long it's going to take. Throbbers work well for very small files, but not for large or even moderately-sized ones.
Well, I guess the "bgproperties="fixed"" confused Konquerer. That's this one thing I really like about IE - you can specify the background to be fixed, so that it doesn't scroll with the foreground.
I always thought that this one feature from IE should be included in NS (or Mozilla or other browsers) - just so you have the option...
Anyway, I changed a few things on the netmeister.org and would appreciate it if somebody could check the page with Konquerer (I'm not at home so I can't install it and check it myself).
-Jan
-- "Tradition is the illusion of permanence."
I think most Europeans know that the U.S. is one of the most sexually repressed countries in the world. I think that there are some middle-eastern totalitarian religious regimes which may beat it out, but not by much. At the same time, the porn industry in America is absolutely huge. But because of the fact that there are so many tightwad Americans who think that there is something wrong with porn, it's never referred to in the same sentence as "legitimate" companies such as Microsoft, Aetna, and R. J. Reynolds.
And I find that interesting becuase I think those three companies I mentioned are much more unethical than any porn industry could ever dream to be. Porn is "sinful," yet making money off of R. J. Reynolds's stock value (inflated by the cancer-ridden corpses of millions and the perjury of the Seven Dwarfs) is acceptable.
I wonder how long it will take for porn to receive the legitimate business treatment that it deserves in America. Is some kind of web app like this the answer? (Yeah, I know, -1 Offtopic. But it's been something I've been wanting to mention for a while and this seemed like as good a time as any!)
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
trying to get to ftp://ftp.kde.org/pub/kde/snapshots/ I discover that the server is down - has it been /.ed already?
-- "Tradition is the illusion of permanence."
Explorer+IE ought to be good enough for the average user. For "power users", we can throw in Visual Basic (being our standard language, as it allows rapid development with close OS integration.)
If everyone sticks to these rules, development will be greatly increased by the uniformity of all OS installations.
Yes! Solidarity, comrade! Strength through unity!
everyone who uses Unix should have the same individualist ideas.
Okay, I can't parody that. I can only let it stand as an example of glorious absurdity. You, sir, are truly a master of doublethink.
Have you considered a career in politics?
how much of it is working so I can download it now and use it instead of netscape?
Almost all of the functionality is there right now, it just needs to be fixed up.
You can get a current copy out of the KDE CVS tree, or get an RPM at
http://people.redhat.com/bero/experimen tal/.
Konqueror is part of the kdebase package. It needs kdesupport and kdelibs to run.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Even Netscape-plugins work in Konqueror: http://www.kudling.de/kde/moor1.jpg http://www.kudling.de/kde/moor2.jpg
There is entirely too much abuse of useless java apps, useless javascript requirements, useless flash, and a bunch of other crap that looks pretty but makes your website less usable.
[what follows is slightly OT]
I agree with you on the whole 'too much useless crap' notion, but you seem to think that usability is the most important part of website design, as does most of the slashdot community. A lot of you/us seem bent on the idea of 'make everything text, get rid of images, get rid of animations'
I believe that it's good to consider the users who are unable to view all that fun stuff, but without it, what exactly _is_ the web? I'll tell you: gopher.
Every month, I shell out the $7 for the printed version of Wired magazine. Why? Most of the stuff in there is available online now, from wired, or otherwise. Simple. I like all the cool stuff they do with their mag. Fluorescent spot colors, metallic inks, scratch and sniff covers, all of that makes it worth the $7 to me.
Same with web sites. If a site is bland, but has good information, you'll get somewhat poor user opinions. Same as a flashy, animated, graphic, loud site with no good information. The key is getting a mix of both that degrades gracefully to browsers that don't support 'features' of your site.
Sorry. My rant-of-the-week.
When is a browser dev team going to wake up and have the balls to build in a sidebar with built-in / customizable porn links. Give me a break, we all know that porn is driving the internet so why not step up to the plate and build a porn-specific browser.
Lets see...we can call it the K-Woody browser...yeah... and have it *tightly* integrated with streaming video software...and chat...and of course have some type of automated file download organization for all the different types of porn. Oh and make all the controls on the toolbar in the shape of giant hooters.. you know...for the look and feel sort of idea..
So lets here it boys...who's gonna step up to the plate here? I think K-Woody can be the killer app that Linux needs.
How does Konquerer handle layers and DHTML? It says that it supports JavaScript standards, but how does it display pages that rely heavily on DHTML (like my own (http://www.netmeister.org) or anything from http://www.dynamicdrive.com/)?
-- "Tradition is the illusion of permanence."
On Windows, there are two major web browsers that you can use, Netscape and IE. This leads many people to developing two web sites, one for use with Netscape, and one with IE.
That is because they don't follow the RFCs. And when the existing stuff does this, hackers result to doing it themselves correctly. That's how kfm came about, long, long ago.
hehe. Good troll. Very very very good troll.
So good, I almost (almost!) caught myself nodding my head in agreement every now and then.
And even when I decided that most of it was bunk, my first instinct was to think the poster was more ignorant than anything else. I was about to send off a huge response explaining to you exactly where you were wrong. hehe It took me quite a while to realize it was a troll.
Very, very, very well done, sir! Definitely one for the hall of fame.
--
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Has anyone tested how extensive the CSS/CSS2 support in Konqueror is? All of the other main browsers (yes, even Mozilla) support CSS in a very patchy 'mine field' sort of way.
I'm getting really tired of writing CSS that works in only one version of one platform. What's up with that?
How hard could it possibly be to support CSS in an even way, across *all* platforms??
CSS Level 1
CSS Level 2
Two last notes:
IE5 *on the MACINTOSH* has the most extensive CSS1 coverage BEFORE IT WAS EVEN A COMPLETE RECOMMENDATION. Almost perfect (still problems with embedded fonts and some other stuff).
What about CSS3? Anyone heard what the browsers are doing about this? IE3 supported some minimal CSS1 back in the day, why aren't browsers not only keeping up, but staying ahead of the curve?
Rami James
Pixel Pusher
ALST R&D Center, IL
--
rJames.org - illustration
I've been following the KDE 2.0 development
(which Konqueror is a part of) and from what
I've seen I would guess 2 to 3 months.
Note that this would put them within their
proposed time frame of a release in second
quarter.
.technomancer
.technomancer
I see the website is "released", not the product...
ok. most of the OSS guys out there, including me, are solid in support of GNOME and Mozilla. I myself was a GNOME maniac, till i am forced to use this SuSE 6.3 (eval) system, which doesn't even have the courtesy to include GNOME along. I think people (call them lusers or anything) prefer a smooth transition onto Linux, and i think KDE gives them everything that they need. I'm not saying that the Helix Code guyz are beating around the bush, but i guess u've gotta give the credit to those who deserve it. whether we like it or not, Konqueror definitely opens up a new avenue in the list of Linux browsers, and Mozilla, howmuch ever it maybe hyped just hasn't got it. Its too slow, crashes a lot, and doesn't even have stable Java support. Opera seemed to be a good alternative for a brief period of time, but it looks like another looser. I've seen other projects (Mnemonic) have good ideals, but who never got anywhere. I think getting the ideas and implemeting them, and moreover, making them usable by the users, is a big concern, and guys no denying that the KDE guys are doing it all.
Not sure about this, but I think there is an option in the view menu to toggle that behavior in kfm. (The index.html thing.)
-- Thrakkerzog
Secondly, the browser in Konqueror is in no way closely linked with the operating system. It is linked with the KDE file manager, which is in fact a very specific program. It would also be very easy to remove the web browser from the operating system, or even just KDE. It also wouldn't be too hard to find someone with the capability to remove the web browser from the file manager; it's open-source after all.
Chris Hagar
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
OK, here's the thing. You want one choice of everything, you want one desktop environment, one choice of editor, one browser, one of everything. Of course, you say that all distributions should stick to the same thing, but there would be no reason for multiple distributions if they were all exactly the same. Also, if we only had one of everything we would be a Windows clone. And I don't think anyone wants that to happen to Unix/Linux/*BSD. I think that all the "fragmentation" as you call it is what makes the *nix world so enjoyable right now. I got sick of being locked in in the Windows world about four years ago, and so now I use *nix for all of my needs (except for that one machine running BeOS, more out of curiosity than anything).
Anyway, you want *nix to become one standard world, then build yourself some new fangled *nix and call it MONOPOLYNIX and be done with it. You can make sure that you never allow your users any choice of anything, and then you can be happy. I think the choice in *nix right now is awesome, and yes, it is overwhelming at first. But once you get over the initial shock of being able to CHOOSE things, you are able to accomplish so much more with your personalized system than you ever could with the homogenized, "You must do it that way you are told to do it." Windows world. Why take away the choice, when that's what draws so many here in the first place?
Bite my yammer.
Each free software advocate will be issued black sandals to be worn with socks- too high, too tight khakis, and a stained dust puppy t-shirt. Weapons will consist of a extreme smugness and strong sense of self satisfaction.
I'll call a fig newton a cookie if I want to
This site is beautifully presented, with some beautiful screenshots and entertaining writing. I believe nitehorse is responsible, so: Good job!
Here's the flash support that was being referred to:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Stefan Schimanski wrote:
> I've uploaded two screenshots of the flash version of Moorhuhnjagd running
> in Konqueror:
>
> ftp://139.174.246.173/pub/nsplugin/moor1.jpg or
> http://www.kudling.de/kde/moor1.jpg
>
> ftp://139.174.246.173/pub/nsplugin/moor2.jpg or
> http://www.kudling.de/kde/moor2.jpg
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
Will it work under the KDE support for Enlightenment or will I have to switch to KWM to use Konqueror?
Web Browsing - Gotta Switch to KWM
Other Stuff (Email, IRC, etc) - Gotta switch back to E
???
No thanks. No matter how good the web browser is, if it's going to require me running the KDE window manager in order to use it, I simply WON'T use it unless KDE2 is an incredibly substantial leap forward to make it better than E or Sawmill.
Just more evidence that the Gnome and KDE teams need to SOMEHOW merge their efforts.
I'm sick of Gnome/KDE specific apps. If they just use GTK or QT, fine, but apps that use the Gnome or KDE extensions, that really pisses me off.
For the record, I did check the FAQ, under the section on the +1 bonus. And I happened to notice the following statements:
"But it also bears more responsibility. A Score:2 comment will be seen by more people."
"just because you think it deserves that bonus point doesn't mean that other people will."
"a good poster will need to learn when he ought to use his bonus point. Certainly not every time."
"a 'Me Too!' comment certainly isn't worthy of that extra bonus."
"its also designed to make sure that they have the right to choose when to shout, and the community can tell them to shut up when they're just blowing hot air"
Sorry, but that seems pretty conclusive to me. I also have a +1 bonus available to me. However, you won't catch me using it here. In fact, you'll almost never catch me using it anywhere. I've had it for several months now, at least. And in all the hundreds of posts I've made since then, I haven't used it once. I'd much rather save it for what it is intended for -- raising my voice when there's something that I really want heard. When something comes up that's important to me; that I can contribute to the discussion on, then I will use it to get my voice heard, since it will be worth it.
It's certainly your prerogative and your right to use it whenever you wish, but I strongly urge you to show restraint in when you use it. The idea is that people who use it when it's not warranted will get their posts moderated down, and so lose Karma. Unfortunately, that isn't happening, mainly because there is just so much crap out there that moderators spend time moderating that crap down, and don't have any points left for stuff like this. But please don't use that as an opening to abuse the system, as small an abuse as it may be.
(BTW: not the same person that posted earlier -- just responding to your comments.)
--
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
I have a couple of thousand bookmarks, nested in places 5 levels of folder deep...
- text
- images
on a frame-by-frame or image-by-image basis?Already the pixel-oriented specs of HTML are downright annoying if you have a good monitor displaying at high resolution. Most web-sites aren't oriented to today's high-end 110-DPI monitors (and tomorrow's monitors will have much higher resolution than that!), and for whatever reason don't mind offending their ostensibly-best-heeled customers. Admittedly, such stupidity should never be allowed to reproduce, but...
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
With communities as large and diverse as the Open Source movment you are going to naturally have duplication of effort.
However, I have to agree with this poster. There is far TOO much duplication of effort. I can see the need for four or even five email clients to account for individual taste but the twelve to twenty out there in the world is bordering on silly. Instead, we could all be better focused on moving aspects of applications and the interface forward. It seems that the desktop metaphor as well as many other aspects of "modern" OS interfaces could be updated. It seems that we are doing an excellent job of copying what has gone before us and in many ways improving and tweaking things without making the jump of making large improvements. It is just my opinion but I am not alone.
The points about fragmentation of distributions is silly. All major distributions contain essentially the same operating system with different tweaks and combinations of the same basic software. If you want this GUI configuration tool or installation then you choose this distribution or the other. GNU/LINUX is still there underneath the cool install and the neat config tool.
Finally the only "dangerous" or misguided suggestion is the unification of thought. It is good to be in an environment with debate and the idea of certain people being cut off from the community for towing the party line is not a pleasant one in my opinion. The idea of purging the concepts that lean toward socialism and collectivism makes me shiver. We need the long hair hippy coders with their years of experience and time in the community despite collective style ideals that may not fit my particular political mode.
ACK
I almost always use my +1... An articulate debate that is off topic will get the +1... A "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" will not.
I think that what it comes down to is my opinion on whether a given comment will interest people not directly involved in the thread.
This one won't... Even if there isn't anything preventing people from using a Score: 3 threshold, as I do when I'm really short of time.
(As opposed to Score: 2, expanding the threads that look interesting)
------
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Although my file manager of choice is still the old console-based Midnight Commander. You can use it in either console mode or in an X window with equal functionality and it does FTP extremely well. It still has a few minor crash problems but they are rare.
Microsoft's VP of Customer Service is Helen Waite. If you are having problems with their products go to Helen Waite.
You are both right and wrong here.
Linux/OSS is about giving people choice! However, if there are so many choices that it chokes a system, what good are they?
I propose that in the future, distributions should all come with some sort of simple default. Why the hell do I need PICO, VI, KEDIT, EMACS.. all on one system? For the love of god, I literally have a new text editor for every day of the week! Why no install just ONE and then give me a 'Customize Install' feature which allows me to install something else if I am a Vi/Emacs bigot. (I'm a Pico bigot, but we won't get into that here.)
The question here is, what is really the best possible combination which will please the most people and piss off the lease?
Do I hear 'large-scale polling'? What, what? Is it just me?
Rami James
Pixel Pusher
--
rJames.org - illustration
I do find this trend of converging every possible function into a single app to be most disconcerting. It happened with Win98 and KFM, it's happenning to Konqueror, and even Mozilla is getting in on the act (in a few different ways, but it's just as guilty as the others). Gnome's Nautilus seems to be slightly different (each aspect being a Bonobo component, and thus a separate module) but the end result seems to be the same, so I'll roll it in here too.
A Web browser is a Web browser. A file manager is a file manager. A media player is a media player. Trying to combine these into one massive app is just a bad idea, no matter the platform or widget set or whatever. Rolling FTP into the original KFM was different; that's still managing files (on a remote machine, perhaps, but same basic idea). Not at all like Web browsing, where the goal is to view files rather than manage them.
So why bring them together into one massive app that's nightmarish to debug when you can simply make several smaller apps, each of which does its job more efficiently and is still much easier to program and maintain? You also don't have the overhead of interface components which might make sense in, say, a Web browser but not a file manager (do file managers really need a throbber? And what use is the "delete" function on a Web browser where 99.99% of the time you wouldn't even have permission to delete files anyway?)
Nothing against KDE; I prefer Gnome myself but use both on a regular basis since the Solaris boxen here only have KDE. But I'm not so sure that making Konqueror into The App That Does Everything (tm) is such a good idea.
From their page:
Features of the new HTML rendering component will include
Note: This is a list of features that will be supported by the KHTMLPart when it is completed and development has at least slowed down on it. However, at this point in time, it is still under very heavy and active development- each and every day, more of these features materialize.
I am very happy to see they are planning this, but how much of it is working so I can download it now and use it instead of netscape ?
Obviousman is obviously not obvious enough
If you think that we're in any kind of potition to "permit" what ideas we think are valuable aand are not in the linux universe, then you're nuts! And on top of that, you're on the wrong platform. I think this comment is just flamebait.
___________________________
Michael Cardenas
http://www.fiu.edu/~mcarde02
http://www.deneba.com/linux
hyperpoem.net
First, you should know how the word "Arabic" is spelled! It is not Aribic!
Second, your site in your own words on it "Sucks" and "Webmaster is lazy"! Talk about people with glass houses throwing stones!
Third, the main point that I should shut up and write some code may appear valid at first.
You (and many slashdotters) have the very narrow view of "scratch your itch" of Open Source.
Not everyone is able nor willing to write a whole software application or system if they need it. For example, I am not a GUI guru, and therefore my contribution to GNOME or KDE in Arabic would be limited. Also they are in C++ which is not my favorite language anyway. More important, is that I have very little time to spare on such a huge undertaking (BiDirectional Language support in computing is not trivial - It is a huge task. This is why you see only few companies offering fully integrated Arabic solutions).
There are already console Arabic support for Linux (check Linux 4 Arab web site), but it is not an integrated solution.
The very promising KDE 2 Konqueror and KOffice support for Arabic are a few months away. So, why re-invent the wheel?
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
What happend here?
It looks like your post was intended for the last news item "Attacking Open Source".
Yes, I am sure you did the necessary research for many years and found out that out of the 250 Million Arabs none can write code.
Care to show us the research papers?
Can you also please show us how much useful code youv'e written?
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
The old notion of RMS-style "Free Software", with it's conotations of socialism and collectivism . . .
Would it help you if you saw it as naked capitalism: 'May the best product win'?
Who the hell is supposed to lay down which compiler, browser, editor, GUI or whatever I wish to use? You? No way. Welcome to the old Eastern Europe. Sorry, but that idea has nothing to recommend it - nothing at all.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.