Slashdot Mirror
Kmeleon - Windows Gecko Browser
Chasuk writes "Slashdot users who are also Windows users might be interested in visiting this site, where they can download Kmeleon, which is described on that site thusly:
"K-Meleon is the Windows answer to Galeon. Thus, K-Meleon is a lite Web browser based on gecko (the mozilla rendering engine). It's fast, it has a light interface, and it is fully standards-compliant. To make it simple, K-Meleon could be considered as the unbloated Mozilla version for Windows.""
I just downloaded and installed K-Meleon, just to try it out.
The fact that the whole download and installation process took about four minutes was the first thing that impressed me.
After browsing a few pages with it, it doesn't make me say "Wow, that's fast!" It does, however, make me say, "Wow, my hard drive isn't thrashing at all!" (Interestingly, that has been my experience with Linux as well.)
I appreciate their attempt to follow Windows standards, but I don't think they needed to clone the IE interface that closely. It's a little creepy.
I am ambivalent about the Mozilla widgets. (I should note that this is also my first experience with Mozilla, period.) Since most of the widgets only appear within web pages, the fact that they don't follow the user interface conventions might actually be a good thing (since the "web page" paradigm should be separate from the "dialog box" paradigm.) However, scroll bars are not part of the page, so there's no excuse for not using standard Windows scroll bars. (Unfortunately, from what I know of Mozilla's internals, that's probably hard to fix.)
The scroll bars are the only part that I really can't deal with. If they fix them, I would seriously consider using K-Meleon (instead of IE) for web browsing.
MSK
if the main feature of netcaptor is having several sites open in different "tabs", you could probably code that up as an XUL skin.
The shareholder is always right.
...too bad the combination of a silly name (Kmeleon?! WTF?) and a ho-hum overall appearance will plunge this thing into obscurity faster than you can say 'Internet Explorer'. Yet another project whose 5 seconds of fame consists of a Slashdot front.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
>I private Jerry Goldsmith's CDs with a clear conscious, now that I can pay him.
You are aware that you're actually not buying the music, you're tipping the artist, right? It's a small distinction to rational people, but it'll get the lawyers in a huff... To claim your tip gives you the right to the music will probably get them to sue fairtunes.com..
If they think fairtunes.com is selling music, or telling people that they are, even with a 'wink wink, nudge nudge' kind of thing, they'll haul them into court so fast and break them.
Keep tipping the artist, but stop claiming that it has anything to do with purchasing the song.
(And, don't you mean 'pirate', not 'private'?)
Yes, let's not discuss technical issues or figure if something is useful or not, let's get bogged down on licenses.
I for one, am getting tired of how complicated this is getting. If these license issues generate so many discussions with lots of confused developers, then maybe these licenses are too complicated for developers. Either simplify and clairify these damned things once and for all, or make "license/copyright law" a part of the CS curriculum.
I'm starting to miss language war discussions, coding style holy wars, etc. License non-sense is just so uninteresting.
- sigs are for wimps.
Here's an example all.js that helped me some.
It's bloated because, as I said, I would need GNOME to use Galeon. I don't use GNOME. Installing GNOME just to use Galeon is a huge space/time waster for me. And then I have to use the GNOME control panel to change some settings, which isn't terribly easy w/o running the GNOME desktop; which I don't do, and am not willing to just to use an unbloated browser.
The browser itself isn't bloated, no, it just passes off all the bloat onto GNOME. Granted, all that stuff does something, but I don't need all that something just for a web browser.
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END OF LINE
I'm posting this from K-Meleon running on Win2K. It is insanely fast.
I'm using M17 right this second and I'm lovin' it more every minute.
Feel the power of open source software....ahhhh....
:)
Email me.
Don't trust anyone over 90000.
+++ATH0
That doesn't happen with K-Meleon, so sometimes I click and think that it didn't get my click because it's so quiet, when it's really just waiting on the network.
This is so great...
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Anyone have a mirror up? The site and the only mirror posted so far are gone...
Uh, motherfucker, like IE and Explorer are tightly integrated?
CLUE STICK: they're not really integrated, tied at the hip, whatever. Microsluts have just written the apps to fire each other up when they're needed. If one wanted to go to the trouble, one could *probably* replace most of IE's functionality (and Outlook, for that matter). And someone should, considering the big gaping holes that Microsoft left in their products.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
GTK+ is available for Windows, so shouldn't it be possible to run Gamelon in Windows. It would only require a little effort to get it going...
is anyone else impressed that one of their screenshots is of misery-in-motion's site?
Lemurific!
That's on purpose. When the site detects what it thinks is a Mozilla/Netscape 6 browser it serves a different version of the page because it thinks the browser has a "sidebar" feature that duplicates that content/functionality in part.
Of course the site's being a little too smart for itself because an embedded Gecko browser probably won't have a sidebar.
And I need it as I can't get outside of our LAN!
Well, it's a v0.1, so its *somehow* acceptable...
But the internal pages are rendered very fast. :-)
Maori
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
So much for lite!
"It's bloated because, as I said, I would need GNOME to use Galeon."
Hmm, Kmeleon is bloated because I would need to install windows to use it.
I wonder if the Mozilla people are taking note of the vocal (at least on slashdot) outcry for a SMALL, STANDARDS COMPLIANT, SIMPLE, and FAST browser?
I don't know who wants bundled applications, every feature you can think of, and huge executible size, but appearently someone does, cause that is what they are delivering.
At least there are projects out now to fix this, and since Mozilla is open source, it IS possible to strip it down when it reaches final form.
(disclaimer: I've used every mozilla release since R4, unless you are testing with a quad-xeon, don't flame me telling me it's fast and not bloated)
Finkployd
This article references a browser called Galeon - I've never heard of it before and have been looking for an alternative to Netscape for my linux box. Anyone have experience with Galeon, to recommend or *not* recommend it?
Netscape is driving me nuts - on the linux box it crashes on java sites occasionally, on the windows box at home if we use the roll button on the mouse, it takes the entire system down and necessitates a hard boot. IE isn't any better. I hate the notion of supporting the economic blitzkrieg of the Active Desktop. Furthermore, it takes it's own sweeeeeeettt time about loading in web pages and does not reliably respond to input in the form of, say, mouse clicks. grrr.
"K-Meleon is released under the GNU Private License."
I downloaded the source code and it appears to be licensed under the GNU General Public License, so I assume it is just a slip. However, it is an amusing one.
Until it has these I'm stuck using other browsers.
For example:
It is faster than NS 4.7, but about the same as NS 6.0 PR2 ( though it has a much smaller footprint ).
I'll definitely be keeping my eye on this program, it has a lot of promise.- --------------------
---------------------------------------
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
As long as you want a HTML 3.2 compliant browser... who needs standards, eh?
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
You do realize that this is a windows browser... right?
What do I do, when it seems I relate to Judas more than You?
Still not dead.
You can get Netscape as a standalone package, with no mail/news/other crap.
It's hard to find on their site of course.
And it's only about 500k smaller than the communicator package...
---
Overall, I wouldn't recommend you to use Galeon if you don't use Gnome.
I agree. I just wish that there was a non-GNOME Mozilla based browser.
So many worthwhile projects, so little time..
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END OF LINE
$ cd mozilla-src
$ echo "ac_add_options --disable-mailnews" >> ~/.mozconfig
$ make -f client.mk
Your point is taken, but mozilla can be built without its mail and news.
There is a LOT of stuff that you can do in debug code to AUTOMATICALLY DETECT bugs. Things like running two separate algorithms on the same data and seeing if you get the same results, automatically verifying that every pointer is valid, etc. Doing these things makes the program run SLOWER, MUCH slower, but it is worth it because it automatically detects bugs, and that is your FOCUS in debug builds. They're not just doing printf's in the debug code.
If you think that "It's debug code!" is just an excuse, then I don't think you've worked on a project that made full utilization of debug code.
I've got one big request for K-Meleon: get rid of the mouse-over behavior of the button bar. It may look cool to have the Stop button greyed out until you mouse over it, but it is plain wrong from a UI standpoint. A greyed out item in a user interface is supposed to indicate I shouldn't waste my time pressing it, it is supposed to be dead. At least in Netscrape, one can see whether or not something cancelable is going on by looking at the stop button. If it's grey, there's nothing to stop. I hate user interface designers who value looks over usefulness.
That said, I'm wondering how much bloat will be bolted on top of K-Meleon before it is functional enough to use as a browser. It is 4MB on-disk on my crash&burn NT workstation now. SSL support will likely weigh in at another 2MB, which for a total of 6MB ain't bad, but by the time more or less essential usability features are put into the UI I think the bloat will be significant. Things I can think of off the cuff are preferences for disregarding document font and color settings, cookie dialogs (I really like the "Remember my choice to never accept a cookie from doubleclick" feature), etcetera.
Oh well -- Galeon and K-Meleon do seem to fill an important niche!
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
--
Is it just me, or does Microsoft's homepage not render properly with Kmeleon?
And upon further viewing, Hotmail doesn't even appear at all.
Is this just me, or is Microsoft complete non-standards compliant?
-----------
Looking for a laugh?
he has licensed it under that while at the same time distributing included MPLed Mozilla files. I'm still not a license expert, but this seems like bigtime violation to me (even more than we did with Galeon
You know what: as long as the author does not violate the MPL he can distribute MPLed files together with HIS GPLed stuff.
Redistribution by third parties would be illegal though!
I don't suppose any has a mirror up? The site seems to be a bit slashdotted at the moment.
I'm a great believer in luck. The harder I work the more I have of it. - Thomas Jefferson
I guess K-Meleon has answered a few issues that I've had with Mozilla/Gecko.
The whole XUL/XML flexible interface is a great idea for us geeks, but my question has always been "What about non-geeks?" I mean. If I'm some newbie to the internet/computer thing and I download NS6 whatever and I'm running on a Mac is the program going to look like the rest of my Mac apps, is it going to conform to the GUI and conventions that's already provided by my OS or am I going to have to go hunting for some scheme or theme that will force it to conform. What if I'm running Kaleidoscope or I'm on MS and running Windowblinds will the themeing cover the browser or not.
Plus normal everyday users (that 90% of the population) is not going to give a flying f*** about what the liscensing states whether it's GPL'd, BSD'd, MPL'd, or BSOD'd. They want a browser that's ready to use out of the box and will work with the sites that they visit on a daily basis.
Right now I'm using IE 5.1, no major complaints except for a few issues where it doesn't cover the standards. I write sites based on the standards not based on what the browser can do, I might limit what standards I use to conform to what standards the browser permits but I never to use proprietary tags unless called on to do so. In my company when we looked line by line at what browser was most standards compliant it was IE and it's still IE. Unfortunately at the rate that Mozilla (although it's gaining momentum lately) is going IE will still be the most standards compliant browser when Mozilla ships as a final product.
One of the other issues I have with NS/Mozilla is the ability/ease-of-use in integrating other compenents into the set. For example: any user can go into internet settings in IE and choose which e-mail/newsreader/editor/etc. that they prefer to use which means I can mix and match apps based on my needs and whims. The interface is fairly simple and actions are easy to walk someone through. Unfortunately in Navigator you have to actually modify the file associations to get this functionality reproduced and then the functionality isn't represented on the toolbar or in the menuing, you can still only choose Messenger/Composer/etc. As far as I can tell the interface is similar in Mozilla. So yet again IE wins on ease-of-use. And as for stability, reliability, and speed (for me) IE wins. I use both Win98SE and NT4 and haven't had any problems with crashes for about the past year. In fact the only apps I've had crash on me lately were Netscape and Silverstream
*nix programmer - shoots self in foot... blames microsoft.
MS programmer - shoots self in foot... blames poor 3rd party video driver.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
Even GNU programs sometimes include similar sorts of exception statements, when practical issues demand it; see GNU Guile or Autoconf for examples.
As for linking to the Microsoft libraries, the GPL has a special exception allowing linking with anything that normally comes with the OS or the compiler.
If a thing is not diminished by being shared, it is not rightly owned if it is only owned & not shared. S. Augustine
Mod the parent UP. I work in a hardware company, and the guy who 'does the web' feels he needs JavaScript. And it don't work under Mozilla (basically rendering out the webpage completely, since the menu disappears). It might not be a standard, but that is not always what counts. (If you desparately want to see the page, look at bops.com).
nosig today
What happened to kmeleon.org. Or does my browser not support getting new browsers.
"Although I guess the question is what is Slashdot? Is it a Linux news page, a Linux zealots home, or is there room for the occasional open source windows browser too?"
I thought it was "News for Nerds".. Nerds use many OS's! (OSes? OSen? OSii?)
Can't we all just get along?
but does it contain IM?
No? Well sign me the fuck up, then !!!
Don't forget Socks2HTTP (I'll give you the non-advert version if you email me for it), which can get you around those pesky restrictive firewalls when IRCing or AIMing.
Email me.
Don't trust anyone over 90000.
+++ATH0
Anyone happen to have a mirror? I can't resolve the link, and I've tried three different nameservers, including ns1.andover.net.
jason
Have a good day?! Impossible! I'm at work!
I'm all for diversity. I'm all for competition. BUT.
Wouldn't it save a LOT of effort and time if the Galeon and K-Meleon people could get together and create a non-session-manager-specific Gecko-based browser as a base that ANYONE could use? They could also provide a version linked against their respective bloat^H^H^H^H^H libraries for people that like that sort of thing.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Mozilla without the mail/news/etc...
Sometimes (almost always) you just want a browser, and not all that other stuff... though it does use the IE bookmarking system (never really did like that - it always moved them around on me).
Even if it isn't all that full-featured at this point, it may be an important stepping stone.
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
It could also be considered a browser to replace IE, since IE doesn't have mail or news built-in either.
--
Weird, I couldn't get it to do anything on an NT workstation. Downloaded, installed it, the icon appeared, but didn't do anything.
Does it support SSL? AFAIK, SSL in Mozilla is supported through the Netscape-Sun Alliance developed PSM system right now. Is it used here too or?
Is it something you would use everyday though, or is it just a really good curiosity?
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
This reminds me of the energy and the hope embodied in the original QT release. When a bunch of Ozis added strong encryption in 24 hours and 5 Norwegians ( 3 Troll, 2 KDE ) ported it to QT in a couple of days ( fast 2 meg binary that crashed as much as Mozilla did 8 months ago ). Back then it looked like a 6 month project.
We have come a long way with people calling the project dead and others resigning because it just wasn't working out. Now it looks like there is a light at the end of the tonel. Mozilla will be done eventually. Maybe in as little as 3 months.
Now with at least 3 mostly standards compliant browsers, two of which support the same plugins ( Mozilla and Konquorer ) there is a chance to take back the web and marginalize proprietary interfaces.
I like choice. I want to use 3 or 4 different browsers depending on mood, lighting and How I will use the site. However I want them to agree on what "HTML" stands for. I want XML and other buzzwords to be accurately supported. I want the freedom to use what I like.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
If you look closer to the author email, it shows christophe@nullsoft.com.
Going to winamp 3 team page, it appears that this guy is actually working for the Nullsoft team. Which is owned by AOL. Which owns Netscape. Which owns Gecko.
hmm... Although, i can say that with releases such as Gnutella and now K-Meleon, Nullsoft rocks.
(No further comment needed.)
Edit defaults\pref\all.js, goto line ~277, set network.proxy.type to 1, then put your proxy details in the lines following.
Works for me!
dave
- The .js defaults stink (all the things I don't want enabled are enabled).
-- It wants to act as a server.
+ Not needing to edit the registery
+ speed
-- Butlerian Jihad NOW!
I can understand doing some rudimentary testing (write up a simple HTML page, look at it in the browser), but this seems overall useless since
I can't believe that people haven't formulated something rigorous - does anyone have any pointers?
Thanks!
MikeTheGreat
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Gecko should be top on the priorities. Get gecko bug-free first, then add all the XUL, XML, *insert buzzword-TLA here*, etc, crap in.
They would have a good product shipping at least, to shut the critics up, while they add all the special functionallity.
Personally, I would like to see the netscape 4 feel to the gecko engine. (i like it better for some reason)
Better to stay silent, and let people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
Note to moderators, just because he mentions IE DOES NOT mean the post is flamebait. Thank you.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
It's not optimized for speed yet. And there's a bunch of debug stuff going on.
From my experience, the phrase it's not optimized for speed yet usually is just a programmers excuse. In the real world, without a major rewrite of some of the subsystems, optimization combined with the removal of the debugging code will yeild about a 30-40% speed increase. If its a game we're talking, thats one thing, but a browser? Even if speed increased 100%, mozilla would still feel slow in a LOT of places. I have found that the speed problems in mozilla are an order of a magnitude greater. Mozilla has certainly caused me to rethink the whole supposed OOP/component future. Mozilla is supposed to represent large scale programming projects of the future and this is it? I think the debugging and optimization excuse just buys more time...
IE start Eudora fine. But I'm not using IE. I'm using Netscape. (the only thing that's keeping me here at this point is the interface)
Intolerant people should be shot.
I'm using Netscape 6 PR2 at home to verify my pages.
I'm very happy to have waited for the fruits of mozilla.org's labour, because it does what I want a browser to do. Standards compliance. I've lost count of the amount of things I've given up on getting right because of lack of a standards -compliant browser. It even stopped me from doing lots of the things that lead to me doing lots of other things...
Please don't flame me for being sarcastic. Otherwise you'll never stop...
Gav
"There's no such thing as data that can't be manipulated"
Who needs to wait? M17 is fan-damn-tastic.
Email me.
Don't trust anyone over 90000.
+++ATH0
This pig takes anywhere from 10-14 megs of Ram at startup on my machine. Less is more?
I understand what you're saying, but I still don't consider that to resemble bloat in any way.
Overall, I wouldn't recommend you to use Galeon if you don't use Gnome.
A long time ago when Mozilla was in the initial stages, there was a utility that let you replace the Internet Explorer engine with Mozilla's engine. Does anyone know where I can find this? I just love NetCaptor as a browser, but it only uses the Internet Explorer engine... If I had the time, I'd code one based on Mozilla just like it, but I don't...
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
The web-browser that can render /. in one second is called Konqueror.
It's fast.
Very fast.
Supports Java, Javascript (mostly - still working out the bugs), and Netscape Plugins.
They just need to fix some rendering problems, and it will be BETTER than netscape.
Currently on my machine here at work, I have Internet Explorer 5.5, Mozilla M17, Netscape 4.74, and now K-meleon. K-meleon seems a bit rough around the edges (for the same reasons Mozilla does) but it doesn't crash constantly.
All four of these browsers appear to get along just fine.
For more information, click here.
I've been saying pretty much since I saw the who xul interface thing that as custoumizable it is, what *really* needs to happen is to make a native toolkit port. It cuts down on so much unneccessary bloat... A interpreted toolkit built into your browser? It's like emacs all over again! ;)
Anyways, mad props to the k-meleon guy. I hope this turns out great, for all of us who use both windows and linux, or just windows. Now if only someone would start a MacOS-specific port...
What do I do, when it seems I relate to Judas more than You?
Still not dead.
Note: This probably only affects his "Full install" version, which includes all the Mozilla bins with it.
His "lite" version seems more OK, except that Richard Stallman would argue that because he's linking to non-GPLed code, the two could never be distributed together.
Also note that once Mozilla completes its transformation to being dual-licensed (GPL/MPL), it will no longer matter. But, of course, we don't know how long that will take.
Conflicting with the MPL is bad enough, but there is also the question as to how the GPL can be applied to the Microsoft stuff in it. Looks like lots of MFC code, and MS artwork was obviously used for the buttons.
** Sig-a-licious **
He, a sneaky channel for such a question, but what the heck! ;) Work on gentoo is progressing very slowly, since I find myself hacking too much on other things (at work, actually) to have time/energy to spend with gentoo. That's a shame, really. Still, I have created a new version (0.11.15), which I hope to release sometime during fall. The major new feature provided by 0.11.15 is support for internationalization, through the GNU gettext library. If you dislike English software, this might be useful.
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
In it's current state i wouldn't use it everyday. it's still missing a *few* minor details, but all in all it's pretty kick ass. google *flys* with this html engine. i'm actually finnaly excited about ns6 now that i've used this and they added an option for the old UI.
"Unfortunately, by refusing to 'suffer' through a few improperly-rendered sites a day, you are contributing to the client stats on every web server that suggest to developers that IE is the only browser they really need to support."
So, you're saying that I should another browser and "suffer through a few improperly-rendered sites" just because IE has too much of a presence on the web? Pardon me if I sound inflammatory, but it's not my fault that other browsers may not display pages correctly. I don't use software based on principle, I use software based on if it gets the job done or not. And IE gets the job done for me. I used to be a Netscape user, until I got fed up with Netscape's bloatiness (does such a word exist?) and tendency to crash. Then I jumped to IE. Why? Because it works. Pages render nicely for me, and that's what matters.
If you don't like the fact that IE has a bigger web presence than other browsers out there, then (as the open source credo seems to say), go do something about it.
--
--
The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
It's been a while since I had to edit a configuration file in Linux either (although I understand that that's unusual).
Care about freedom?
I'd rather be lucky than good.
1) Try to right-click on a link. No dice.
2) No option in the menus to open a new browser window.
The above make it impossible to open two (or more) browser windows to view separate pages. Since this is definitely my favorite way to surf, it makes it pretty ugly. You can start up two copies of KMeleon, but it bogs pretty bad (I assume it opens two complete copies since it appears twice in the Ctrl-Alt-Del task box).
Basically, it has potential...it's faster than Netscape or IE on my PII350. It renders nicely, though occasionally seems to miss images. I don't particularly like, or need, the spasmatic approach to HTML rendering (moving page parts around as it discovers the sizes of images it's loading) like IE, so that's a bit of a negative (plus, I suspect a performance hit).
It also loads faster than IE or Netscape in my experience. Text inside form tags seems a little smaller than expected, but it has Flash and Java support, so they have paid attention to getting the details right - I suspect they'll fix this soon. History and autocompletion aren't implemented, which really makes repeated surfing uncomfortable, though Netscape for Linux doesn't autocomplete either and I got used to it.
I'd like to ditch Netscape and IE on my office machine (which is forced to run Windows for compatibility), but until some of these are in place, not much I can do.
TheGeek
TheGeek
http://www.geekrights.org
Kill the monkey
I can tell you a great real world experience. I have a Wintel Laptop - P133. Trying to get the most minimal Windows onto it, I have a Win95 diskette install (quit complaining, I just X Window into my Linux box). This thing could kick serious ass compared to running Exploder on it. I have to fight with Windows Update to not "upgrade" my IE to 5.5, 4.0 runs slow enough for the little browsing that I do on this baddie. Time to try to rip as much IE out of it as I can manage and install KMeleon
www.jackasscritics.com
Imagine, if you will, that suddenly, the postal service decided that you could only read and write your mail with a custom, USPS-approved, compact letter-machine. The output it produced would be scrambled to the point of being impossible to decipher, and any attempt to decode it would be a federal crime. However, business and legal documents had to be transferred by that means to be considered "official." That is dramatically similar to the situation we are beginning to face with EULAs, the DMCA prohibitions on reverse-engineering, and the growing segment of Internet users who think it's nothing more than the Web and email. I, for one, would very much like to have at least a few options, and do not wish to support Microsoft in their attempt to "own" the Internet in any way I can avoid.
I already have Mozilla, so I just unzipped the files to my Mozilla/bin/. directory. Then ran the Kmeleon EXE and PRESTO! NT4
No, you put your Slashdot in my Windows!
W & S: Perfect together.
sulli
RTFJ.
First of all, its Mozilla news, which regularly gets posted here.
Second of all, a very large number of posters here are primarily Windows users and are interested in this kind of thing.
Combine the two, and you get news worth posting.
What I'd be really interested in seeing is the actual OS stats on visitors here. I've heard from several people that when a site gets slashdotted, a majority of the hits are IE on Windows, I wonder if the actual stats are the same.
Although I guess the question is what is Slashdot? Is it a Linux news page, a Linux zealots home, or is there room for the occasional open source windows browser too?
I'm afraid I don't have an answer for that one, as I'm not the guy who posts news.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
I'm glad that you have no problem with doing your part to solidify and permanently establish Microsoft's supreme decision-making authority for every user of the Internet. Personally, I am trying to do something about it -- by arguing with you, by running the latest Mozilla builds, by trying to push friends and coworkers into avoiding IE, and at least into avoiding sites that only work with IE.
Anyone get it working on NT SP6a?
ever here of .ini's ?
Care about freedom?
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Oh god, somebody shoot me. You know, it's people like you which cause people like me to think that /. should be renamed LinuxDot: New for Linux weenies. Seriously though, the developmet of Galeon was posted, so why not this? Just because it isn't for Linux, it doesn't "deserve" to be on /.? Maybe /. should stop posting articles about all sattilites that don't run Linux. Given the fact that Linux (and OSS in general) are about creating a more friendly software environment where people help each other out...
A lot of nerds DO use Windows you know. I for one, would much rather use NT than Linux. It's not a religious thing, I just like NT better. And when Linux with GNOME takes up less memory than NT4, please call me up so I can faint at how they squeezed that fat thing into 18MB of RAM. Geez...
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Worked on my NT4 (SP 6)...
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
i'm seeing some visual artifacts (weird vertical lines at the edges of tables) that i'm not used to seeing on mozilla.
but after i finish posting this article i'm going to quit it, and go back to using netscape.
why you ask?
there is a little animated bowel movement where i'm used to an N lit up by shooting stars.
kellan
Works fine for me (NT 4, SP 5, german). I did have to run the installer twice though, and the first time I started it, it took forever and ended in Dr. Watson. Works fine now.
I think I'll stay with Kmeleon for one reason and one reason only: FADING MENUS. Now I can have all the slow UI touches of Windows 2000 today!
(View > Preferences... > Menu to set. And they don't have the cool fade-out effect like in Windows 2000 -- yet.)
For more information, click here.
Mea culpa: I normally use IE5.5
After downloading Kmeleon, here's what I found that needs work:
- it stole my "Links" bar! In IE5.5, I customized this bar, but when Kmeleon is loaded, it replaces the Links bar with it's own links. (The Links bar is stored in windows\favorites\Links)
- it actually uses MFC. In fact, it crashed with a page fault in mfc42.dll.
- no https
- No Smallest,small,medium,large,largest font selection.
- Cookies?
Overall, it looks nice, and it runs pretty fast. If it wasn't for the non-customizable links bar, and if Cookies were fully implemented, I'd use it instead of IE5.5
--
Have it working on windows NT 4.0 workstation over here.
Kmeleon is surprisingly good for a one man show although he seems to be emulating somewhat older versions of IE (3.0?).
What it does best is just show the potential, though. I'd swap over to an IE clone that was running gecko instead of IE in a second. And for Windows, I want something Windows specific that uses all standard evil (tm) stuff that Windows is actually good at, so I don't have to suffer more than I already do using Big Bill's "operating system".
if it's using MFC it should probably be called
MyGecko
"Peace, Love and Apathy"
Fortunately, Mozilla will be dual-licensed under the GPL/MPL someday.
PS I concur with the other poster Re:Proxy, as I consider that to be a highly useful feature as well (especially for ad busting).
Alex Bischoff
Interested in building a roof over your cubicle?
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
Wow! More wilful stupidity!
Just because you want it now does not mean Mozilla is late. I am not the only person who is prepared wait for something good.
--
"Where, where is the town? Now, it's nothing but flowers!"
Common misconception that is.
Funny how when I click that mail button, it opens *Eudora*.
I don't have Outlook or Outlook Express installed, there is this really neat option at install time to turn OE off, and same thing with Outlook when you install Office.
Gee, there's some massive integration for you, they're entirely seperate programs!
See, now Netscape mail is integrated, I can't choose to not install it during the Communicator installation. No matter what, its there. Outlook Express I can quite easily get rid of, and tell IE to use Eudora, or Agent, or The Bat, or whatever other mail program happens to interest me today.
Apparently both you and the moderators haven't actually gone and looked yet.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Um, you already mentioned it. It "can stay open for more than 15 minutes without crashing." It works. Which was my whole point in the first place.
--
http://gammatron.weblogger.com
Maybe you should try Mozilla with the Mozbilla or Native.windows themes - available here. I can recommend the Native.windows chrome as one of the best available.
Of course, that means you have to suffer the Mozilla bloat, but it isn't as bad as it used to be.
BTW> I think Windows is actually the best OS from which to browse /. Under NetPositive, things like the password section glitch up, under Navigator everything looks ugly, and is slow, under Mozilla, things are unstable, etc. Under IE, everything looks perfect!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Stability is not a "feature", at least in the usual sense of the word.
When was the last time I edited an INI file in Windows?
I'm not sure. What year is it again?
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
I think that perhaps our underinformed friend was referring to the fact that there is nowhere to place the proxy settings and therefore it is utterly useless to him.
While this is not exactly a 'standard compliant' required feature, it is a feature that I would expect in any modern browser -- even a trimmed down one like this is.
While the mozilla project does support projects, this is NOT the mozilla project; it is only using the Gecko rendering engine that was made by the Mozilla team for use in, among other things, the Mozilla project.
Rami
--
rJames.org - illustration
I'm using it right now on NT4 (sp5) smooth as silk and using about 4 megs of RAM.
The real question is, do the sites you visit support the standards in their encoding, or do they use IE-specific techniques without regard for other browsers.
With the huge market-share IE enjoys it has two sets of standards it can support:
In my development I aim for the De Jure standards. Unfortunately, Mozilla isn't truly compliant to these standards yet. I'm not developing content sites, but web applications. Mozilla seems fine on the major entertainment sites -- which is great -- but it doesn't support simple interface manipulation as it should, so I cannot include it in my list of approved browsers, yet.
I'll keep looking, though. I just can't move away from IE until Mozilla is Ready.
Once Mozilla is ready, then my entire application development environment will be MS-Free. Until then, I'm tied to Windows and IE. ("Don't cry for me, Ars Techninca...")
Now hiring experienced client- & server-side developers
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
... must go better together than most folks want to admit. This site is seriously Slashdotted at the moment.
Exactly. And I'm not underinformed, which is why I put "standards" in quotes. Users are more concerned with functionality than arbitrary HTML "standards", which is why IE 5.x has been so wildly successful despite the bitchings of HTML standards purists.
--
http://gammatron.weblogger.com
I changed the network.proxy.type to 1 and set the appropriate values for:
- network.proxy.ftp
- network.proxy.ftp_port
- network.proxy.http
- network.proxy.http_port
I can now get out through my proxy at work... not sure what the network.proxy.type of 1 is... just figured 0 would be "no proxy".Unfortunately, by refusing to "suffer" through a few improperly-rendered sites a day, you are contributing to the client stats on every web server that suggest to developers that IE is the only browser they reallyneed to support. That impression is what keeps every site out there looking perfect in IE 4/5/5.5, and god-awful in most every other browser.
As in a reptile that's remarkably stealthy - it will change colors according to the environment. As in - this browser is the ultimate since it does the job without flashing you with features. A great name!
Stop the brainwash
This is a response to Galeon?
Saying it is "also" light and unbloated?
Too bad Galeon requires me to install all of GNOME as well. Not exactly unbloated if you don't use GNOME, is it? It even requires you to use the GNOME control panel to set such things as your mailer, and to have GNOME programs beyond the base GNOME libs, such as GTM (Gnome Transfer Manager, for downloads).
I'm sorry, but Galeon doesn't quite cut it for me. Too bad there aren't many binding for embedding Mozilla yet, only the gtk bindings. Of course, you could just use the embedding interface interface of Mozilla itself and build your own wrapper. Judging by gtkmozembed, it'd only take around 70kbyes of code.
You'd also, of course, have to understand the very confusing embedding docs, and while the gtkmozembed code might help a bit, it's very Gtk specific.
Perhaps someone will start developing some other bindings so that you don't need to implement 5 different objects to interface with the embedding objects. Oh, and create the associated IDL files, whatever those are, I haven't figured them out yet.
One of Mozilla's major claims to fame is its embeddability. Too bad it's not very embeddable yet.
Wow, I went just a bit off my train of thought.. well. Galeon requires GNOME, K-Meleon requires Windows.. I guess that evens it out a bit. I'd really like to see a Gtk-only Mozilla-based webbrowser, though; no GNOME, no KDE, just Gtk, Mozilla code, Linux, and X.
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END OF LINE
I understand why Galeon was put under GPL, it was to keep the same licence as other Gnome components and at the time Mozilla weren't talking about dual licensing. Now that they want to dual licence Mozilla under MPL and GPL wouldn't it help both projects if they dual licenced k meleon and at the moment it's probably illegal to distribute the GPL and MPL components together (read the post by a Galeon developer). I think whenever possible licence compatibility should be maintained and in this case should be dual GPL/MPL.
;) or the GNU Public Licence)
(and it's the GNU General Public Licence (not the GNU private licence
BTW I'm not spelling licence wrong it's one of the words that differ in the UK.
This isn't insightful, it's stupid. The phrase "standards-compliant" refers to W3C standards, such as XML and CSS.
By the way, Mozilla *does* support proxies.
--
"Where, where is the town? Now, it's nothing but flowers!"
If K-Meleon is lightweight, Then IE is a featherweight compared to it.
/. (just the main page) and another window to a smallish website consumed just over 40MB of ram!!!!
/. from the browser.
First im Running NT Workstation 4.0.
I have 128MB of ram on a PIII866
K-Meleon was rather Jerky.
A quick trip to Task_Manager revealead it was not using all that much processor so it was... waiting on events.. i dont know it was very jerky.
Each browswer one to
If that is light weight... were in trouble.
I really hope it is just because this thing is in development. It had an absolutely huge memory footprint.
It was only a 2.85MB Download but owch.. I had to shut it down because I could not type in the text area to post to
Anyways.. YMMV
Jeremy
I'm gonna guess that you're behind a firewall. If that's the case, then it won't work. (Well, it will work on sites inside the firewall, but not outside.) I've got it running on NT4 SP6 behind a firewall, although I can't access Slashdot or anything through a proxy - you can't access the configuration settings. I'll have to fool around with it later, see if I can get proxy settings up and running. Looks nice, though.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Seriously, it's evil. It's a total betrayal of the browser by stealing away control the user should have and giving it to the web developer (when things like advertising put them at cross purposes). We shouldn't legitimize its use by including it "web standards", and any site that uses it shouldn't be called a real website, just another net-downloadable program.
Standards are only a good thing when they standardize on good behavior.
---
Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
And Impressed....everything is quick, responsive and I can't wait for the final version...good work.
..where microsofts IE5, although excellent, could use more competition (netscape ain't it, and icab, maybe soon..) btw, isn't unbloated a great word?
--
I like this guys approach to HTML:
(c) 2000 christophe thibault. All rights reserved.
(no, i don't have the time to make a fucking pretty page)
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
I just downloaded and installed k-meleon and am using it, but the arrow keys don't work. The scroll bar doesn't repeat while holding down the mouse button. Am I the only one that this is not working for? I like the look, but this renders it unusable for me.
Works on 2000/Server...
This is what it should have been all along.
---
---
Gort! Klatu Barata Nikto!
"I'm saying that pages render correctly only in IE precisely because no one will write pages that work in anything else."
You're right, because IE is the majority browser on the web. And that's because people use it. Go ahead and villify IE users as people who want to help "establish Microsoft's supreme decision-making authority." "Broken" or not, people use IE, for whatever conspiracy theory you can think of. And others don't use IE, for whatever reason. Like the saying goes, "different strokes for different folks." But being one of those horrible IE users you villify, allow me to unofficially apologize, on behalf of all the IE users out there, for using IE. I'm sorry that not everybody uses software based on principle, as you seem to do.
--
--
The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
Sounds more like a Gecko-based KDE browser to me. :-)
Is this something interesting to know?
Hey, this is great news to hear just when I wiped win98 off my harddrive and went with a straight linux distro.
Now, if there was only a Mac version besides Netscape's...
"Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
People who don't understand the interface are NOT going to be able to switch skins and then get lost, so this is not a big problem in my view, but that's just my $0.02
-- Sent from a computer.
Although there doesn't appear to be a place to setup proxies through the GUI, just go to the directory it's installed in, defaults\pref\all.js and edit the all.js file directly, putting in your proxy info as needed. Shutdown the browser and bring it back up, I'm writing this using KMeleon going through a corporate proxy right now.
If need be, you might want to open up a functional prefs.js from a working Netscape program for comparison.
This program is definitely still Beta, but it's showing a LOT of promise!
Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away. -Rob Malda
Hey... there's no "edit-paste" on the menu, and I can't ctrl-v w/ it. was up wit dat? Oh wait.. it's a browser. Anyways.. shows up as Mozilla5.0/Gecko in server logs. No reference to K-Meleon. And it locks up when trying to type text and move the cursor within the box... Oh wait again... it's Windoze. My bad.
~Bout Time for another tea party.®~
yah but its not part of any html standards, thats what he meant. i wrote an irc client, fully standards compliant , no proxy. i got emails daily saying until i put socks support in, they wouldn't use it. so next release , it had socks support. email this guy w/ your issue and politely request it. don't bitch here, because we don't care. at least i don't. a-hole.
The author released this under the GPL, but he used Gecko from Mozilla, which I understand to be under the MPL. This from the FSF website (http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/license-list.html).
"This is a free software license which is not a strong copyleft; unlike the X11 license, it has some complex restrictions that make it incompatible with the GNU GPL. That is, a module covered by the GPL and a module covered by the MPL cannot legally be linked together."
Granted, this is one interpretation. What this illustrates is the huge problem that is created by using a license such as MPL, QPL, etc...
We went through this with the QPL - recognition of that incompatibility has seemingly disappeared except for the Debian distrubtion. The license incompatibility still exists, however.
The bottom line is that Non-GPL'd software really causes some hairy licensing issues. At some point, these issues need to get resolved and some sort of education / standardization needs to take place.
Marc
This thing is so FAST! It's much faster than IE or Netscape (any versions) on my system. It's still got a few little things, but I'm betting those are from the renderer and not K-Meleon.
/. in 1 second already?
Why don't we have a web-browser than can render
Well, I've got to try Galeon on my home system now.
THANK YOU!
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
My friend Soc has chucked a mirror of the 2.85 meg installer up on his webpage The un-offical Top 20 to anything.
Huge link at the top, you can't miss it.
Have fun :)
Standards are not the be-all and end-all of web compatibility.
---
Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
No offense, but the name makes it sound like it's written for KDE. Perhaps a name that sounds more like it came from M$ is in order (no offense, just thought I could get some interesting suggestions).
(Heh, sorry M$, this joke had to be made).
Sinking Ship?
Eh...
....
I like it (I am using it right now to write this message). The interface is definetly nicer then the one from netscape 6.0..... But either Gecko still has some bugs or they are still working on it here... On userfriendly the page got "stuck" for a bit before it finished loading....
And as much as I hate to admit it, but I like the IE interface better then the netscape 6.0 interface, or is this just me?
Michael
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
A lot of people seems to think K-Meleon is a KDE/QT clone of Galeon. Umm, who decided that every app prefixed with a "K" must be for KDE? If you actually read the initial post and went to the page to get some info, you wouldn't sound like idiots. I know Slashdot is a Linux oriented area, but come on.
BTW, open-source can exist on Windows.
[obligatory plug]
BTW, i'm writing this post in K-Meleon.
[/obligatory plug]
--Justin
All the standards are supported, aren't they?
Maori
PS: Hm, but what about MathML and SVG? I'll look...
Can't get this to work on NT4
Which version of Windows is this for?
Following the comments here, why in the heck would you want to remove IE? Particularly since this new KMeleon browser requires IE libraries for it's front end. Have you seen the screensh ots yet?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Comming from a corporate enviorment where they block most usefull services through the firewall, a lite browser is just the thing. I hate installing a software package and getting a million diferent "features" that I don't use, and just clutters up the landscape.
Dirty Pirate Hooker
Finally there's a Windows version of Gecko. I was quite excited about the Gecko project when I heard about it, but since it didn't have a Windows port, I am still using Netscape right now. I've been tempted to switch to Internet Explorer regularly, whenever a website didn't work properly, but I hesitated because I knew both browsers are too proprietary. Now that Gecko is out, I can finally switch to an open source and standards compliant webbrowser.
I think this is what Mozilla should have done, instead of continuing to work on their big project, they should first have released such a light-weight stand-alone browser. I'm not saying the rest is bloat, not at all, and I'm faithfully waiting for Mozilla's public release. But until then, Netscape keeps sucking, and Internet Explorer keeps expanding. The first step should have been to provide a working browser, fully standards-compliant, and after that the rest could follow.
Thanks to open source development, someone else was able to do it. One thing I'd like to say is that open source development is very ambitious. But to come out of the obscurity, something has to be released to the public, a working version with all features ready. I've tried Mozilla's preview releases, but what I need right now is just a browser. Once such a browser is done, people could start to use it, and spread it around. Then, while the user base is constantly growing, the rest of the project could be implemented. Otherwise it's too little, too late. It's better to have something, and early.
-- Eavy (: Linux Is Not UniX
well here i am at work forced behind a winNT workstation, so i downloaded this.
i have to say i'm super impressed. Ultra fast page loads. give it a try if you're using win
save the following as kmeleon.reg:
t ings]
REGEDIT4
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\K-Meleon\K-Meleon\Set
"BackgroundImage"=dword:00000001
"StartPage"="http://n473.com"
of course you could choose another start page...
and BTW be carefull with regedit!
-----
cheers!
N473
http://www.n473.com
i downloaded and started using amaya yesterday and it was a pretty interesting little browser.. it seemed to support most if not all the major standards... html 4.0 xhtml 1.0 css mathml, etc. but the good or bad thing depending on how you look at is that it will not display a non compliant webpage well at all. i wish webdevelopers and slashdot would use w3c.org's html validator and their browser to check their pages to make sure that it runs for everybody. like most pages just consist of text, tables, images, and colors, right? and big scripts could be done server side and stylesheets won't be read by bad browsers, so i think everyone could view them. do i not understand something about web development?
In fact Gecko has been available as an ActiveX control for nearly two years now and quite a few products from HTML/CSS editors to skinnable browsers such as Neoplanet already use it.
Manually edit a text file? In Windows? Bizarre. :)
*goes to download KMaleon*
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
http://www.clock.org/~fair/opinion/javascript-is-e vil.htmlJavascript is evil. ECMAscript is just JavaScript.
---
Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
Because this is free software, licensing discrepencies aside. Your statement is akin to saying "Why do we need FreeBSD when we have AIX?"
Marc
Javascript is evil. ECMAscript is just JavaScript.
---
Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
Not sure (I'm not a liscence expert), but at the least, I know it is not possible to distribute the MFC code, only the binaries. If there is ANY static linking in the download (which is very likely) then he is distributing a binary that can't be GPL'd. OTOH, I think the code that makes calls to the MFC libs might be OK.
However, this still doesn't address the issue that GPL code is linked to non-GPL coed (according to RMS, that's bad).
Also, there is still the use of the MS artwork used for the buttons. Not sure what liscencing covers theses.
** Sig-a-licious **
I'm rather unimpressed. It's twice the download size of Opera and a *LOT* slower. Too bad the Opera site seems to be down or i'd have put a link up for it...
Not bad, how many years late?
Gav
"There's no such thing as data that can't be manipulated"
A first beta of K-Meleon was posted to the Web on Monday and is available for download. K-Meleon is available under the GNU private license, meaning the full source code is available to developers interested in building upon the browser. (GNU stands for GNU's Not Unix.)
Gotta hand it to Mary Jo Foley for getting "GNU" right and "GPL" wrong!
I wonder how many ZDNet "journalists'" sole duty is to play catch-up to /. all day long? ;-)
Sean
Well, I feel sorry for the guy who developed this. As a Galeon developer I realize the pain he's about to endure.
:)).
Well, besides the fact that he calls the "GPL" the "GNU private license", he has licensed it under that while at the same time distributing included MPLed Mozilla files. I'm still not a license expert, but this seems like bigtime violation to me (even more than we did with Galeon
More to come later when I re-check my facts.
A typo I guess, but its funny because this typo is exactly the opposite of what RMS preaches ;)
Ditto.
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