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Micropayment Wars Are Over... PayPal Wins?
Snocone writes "Cringely's latest column asserts that PayPal is now sufficiently dominant that it is pretty well certain to achieve de facto standard for micropayments over the net. Goes into the history of PayPal and why their model works where no one else's has. Even if you don't agree with him, there's some good insights into digital currency infrastructure to be found here." I now use paypal to pay my girlfriend back when she picks up dinner and my roommate pays his share of the rent using PayPal. Its great... although with the $5 they pay in referrals, plus the $5 they pay to new users, ya gotta wonder ... (if anyone wants to use me as their referral, thats cool *grin*). its actually making the Tipping Jar concept practically feasible. I mean, can I tip artists a few bucks when I enjoy their MP3? Can I tip a few bucks when I enjoy reading someone's website? The potential to change a lot of things is within reach.
There's already sites that are build around supporting artists by tipping them when you use their mp3s. Check out www.fairtunes.com
You are thinking of DigiCash. The original company went broke... while the creator of the system was great at math he wasn't so great at running a business. I was in the trial run (93-94 I think) it was very cool and worked well... just never got off the ground.... really wish something would though... I'd love to start getting paid for viewing banner adds. Wired mag had a big article on this company a while back.. I'm to lazy to find the link... but just search on digicash.
You can tip artists with Paypal starting Sept 1 on fairtunes.com
... lots of other players in that field have the same flaw. I'm currently using a competing system called "Federal Reserve". They have pretty prestigious staff there including the Secretary of the Treasury. Wow! Their system is based on paper bits (mostly green) commonly called "One Dollar Banknotes". You know what? Say I go to Seven-11 to buy a bottle of milk and pay with a Federal Reserve Note. If when I get back home, the milk happens to be spoiled, there's no charge back. I've tried to reach the Secretary of State but he won't return my calls. That's poor service. These guys are doomed. They'll never manage to get a significant market share.
No, I didn't miss it. I know that there is insurance. I still don't want to give them direct access to my bank account. And I don't see why I should have to. If PayPal wants to be the de facto micropayment system then I think it needs to be possible to use it without linking it to a bank account. (Ideally I would like to be able to just pay in cash -- and get my balance in cash -- without giving them any further personal information. But I know *that's* not going to happen. Good thing there is egold).
Thank you mister fucking Pink.
I just wish PayPal would mail me my checks faster.
- Mike Hughes
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I am Canadian and I have a huge problem with PayPal, its that I cant use it. At least billpoint, which is affiliated (or is a service of?) Ebay allows me to send cash. With PayPal, there is nothing I can do. Opening it to Canada, as least, would be a good news...
Exactly the point! That's what happens with credit cards. You pay for something with a credit card and it doesn't work, you call up your credit card company and they put the money back on your card and charge the vendor for their trouble. You don't get that with PayPal, it's not about stirring up any confusion.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
Personally, I generally leave a few bucks in my PayPal account and consider the tiny amount of interest a payment for the convenience.
And it's not as if they aren't compl etely up-front about this. Adam
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
"I now use paypal to pay my girlfriend back when she picks up dinner "
Whoaaaa. Your life must be REALLY different from mine. Does no one else find this notion wierd and distressing?
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I would say that my first experience with Pay Pal was a blazing success. It was buying my Apex 600a DVD player off of eBay.
However, my next use, I solicited payment to someone else over Pay Pal, was a dismal failure - this was at the start of this summer. The guy couldn't get to their website. I couldn't get to their website. The shennanigans went on for over two weeks. I haven't used PayPal since, but I hope they've improved their infrastructure.
My final note on Pay Pal is, as soon as they get to a respectable size (marketshare), they're going to enact a minimum payment amount, probably over a dollar, just like all the rest. Because they can. I don't think it's economically feasible for micropayments to be handled, long-term. Sure companies can make money doing it, but why would they if they didn't have to? There's plenty of big-ticket commerce going on, this nickel and dime stuff isn't worth anyone's time. Unfortunately. So the model for online transactions will continue to be big $$ only. For a while, we'll have some products come up that take micropayments. But only for a while. They'll die as the micropayment banks get greedy and take bigger peices of the pie. That's the way things go.
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
If you vacation in Tahiti (french polynesia) do not tip. They take it as an insult. It was explained to me that their "work ethic" does not permit tipping, they don't feel that it's a fair reward for work, or something like that, their regular salary should be the fair reward.
On that note, maybe if employers PAID service people enough money to live on, the tipping culture wouldn't be necessary, along with all the bs (tipping based on breast-size, bad math skills, the tax questions, etc).
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The incentive for good service should be the same incentives everyone else has for doing good work; pride, and the boss is watching.
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Ego boost? What about those of us who are confident of our abilities, and feel that our output is WORTH money? Or those of use who maybe, need money, are good at something, but for one reason or another, can't "plug into" the moneymaking architecture of an industry; for instance, what if a person is musically inclined, but doesn't give good head - to the right record executive, should our culture be deprived of this person's music? I agree that not everyone should have a ferrari with a 13 year old filipino girl, but on the other hand, people gotta eat. Should our musically inclined person who doesn't give good head be forced to spend his 8-hour days flipping burgers and do music in his spare time?
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
#1, I hope they trademark this so they can sue the inevitable spammers who will abuse it. (because people won't delete such a message knowing that they might REALLY have cash).
#2, I hope AOL doesn't sue them.
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
That was precisely his point: you pay someone with paypal, paypal takes the money from your credit card, you decide that the other party didn't deliver and issue a charge back with your credit card company, and Paypal will right away recharge your card for the same amount. You cannot ever get money back that you paid over paypal, unless you cancel your credit card at just the right time. (I remember having read that clause a couple of months ago, but now I can't find it anymore. Maybe they changed it?)
Furthermore, if you have been paid via paypal, you can never assume that the money is actually yours: X.com reserves the right to take back the money if the other side issues a successful chargeback.
Basically, both as buyer and as seller you assume a risk, but they never assume any risk.
Also, don't forget that when (not if) they go bankrupt, their database will be sold to the highest bidder by the bankruptcy court.
--
I like PayPal because it has millions of users. The only worrisome thing about PayPal is: what is their business model? Right now they are buying marketshare with their $5 giveaways, and they are also suffering the costs of being based on credit cards, but they are not passing on those costs to their users. I hope they have a good plan for going profitable without losing their attractive features. Also PayPal is specifically disinterested in anonymity, which is a very interesting feature to me.
But in the meantime I love PayPay because they have millions of users and they are a peer-to-peer payment system, so there is nothing to stop PayPal users from using PayPal to buy another currency like e-gold or Mojo. :-)
E-gold, I like because it has been around a long time, it is peer-to-peer, allows micropayments, and it is dead simple technically. (That's a feature!)
Also, the e-gold company really sets a high standard for being in-the-open about their business, including the automatically generated, WWW-accessible auditing information on this page. E-gold doesn't smell of that tricky e-business baloney about living off of gullible venture capitalists until that glorious day when they dominate the market and then they'll somehow figure out how to extract a tithe from their customers.
I really hope that the e-gold on-line statistics page is the forerunner of the next generation of auditing technology.
Now Mojo Nation I like because it allows really small micropayments ("nano-payments"?), and it can be unconditionally anonymous in the Chaumian sense (although the current version doesn't use that feature since we don't have a license to use Chaum's patent), and it is integrated into the Mojo Nation globally distributed data haven.
Oh yeah, and I because I helped write it. :-)
Mojo Nation is not yet at version 1.0 -- the next version that comes out will be 0.9 -- so it still has performance issues and bugs. You'll hear about it when 1.0 comes out, believe me. :-)
In sum, each of these payment systems have unique features, and I hope that we can link them all together to make the overall digital economy bigger and more fluid. I know that there are already several independent market-makers who will buy or sell e-gold in exchange for other kinds of money. E-gold is older than PayPal and the e-gold company encourages such people and gives them publicity on e-gold.com and so forth.
Regards,
Zooko
digital money enthusiast
Chief Hunchback, Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow
Interesting comments. I'd like to see where it says what you're referring to. The relevant part of the agreement I'm looking at seems to be where it says... (This is all quoted from their popup service agreement page.)
I used it a lot, but most of the time just to email money to someone, rather than beam it to their palm... I wonder if that figure counts that use, or just beaming.
Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
Uh... Back to our friends at M-W:
--
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
--- http://foo.ca
Well this line say two things to me. Obviously, successful business people don't necessarily need fancy letters placed after their last name. Secondly, Hey Cringely! What were you thinking when you wrote that line? Doesn't have a Ph.D.?
By now the moderators should be reaching for that flamebait button. But wait, I give you some OT stuff as well. As of this minute, Larry Ellison is now the richest man in the world. This takes into account his stake in Oracle (690M shares), Gates' stake in MS (740M shares), and also Gates' $10B in non-MS investments.
Well, at least I didn't mention a certain bird in this post.
I don't know exactly why they dropped beaming money (that was the cool factor that got me to try it), but the technique you describe wouldn't work. When Alice beamed Bob money, the proof of that fact was in Bob's Palm, not Alice's. So if Bob didn't sync or lost his Palm, only then would the transaction be lost. You know, just like if Alice gave me a bill or check, and i lost my wallet, well, I don't get the money.
mahlen
Nothing is so aggravating as calmness.
--Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Loophole. All the one-letter Big 7 domains were marked as "reserved" at some point by the controlling authority (which may at that time have been ARPA; I'm pretty sure it was pre-ICANN). The exception was for the letter X, since x.org already existed. For some reason (perhaps because they were leaving it open for the X Consortium?) they declined to take x.com out of the namespace. x.net is, in fact, reserved--I just checked. OTOH, x.int is available! Someone better jump on that.
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
I have both a Billpoint and a PayPal account. I find the PayPal account easier to use with eBay than Billpoint is. Why ? Because Billpoint is linked only to individual items unless the seller takes the trouble [1] to create an invoice. PayPal makes it easier to pay for multiple items from a single seller.
[1] I haven't seen the seller side of this transaction, but the people I've done business with are agoing to be adding up a total with shipping anyway. Whay add in the extra step that BillPoint takes ? Unless Billpoint makes an easy tool for managing transactions, they'll be left in the cold.
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
Sure you can.
At fairtunes.com
-
What the heck are you talking about? I didn't see anything in his comment suggesting him feeling more powerful or omnipotent because of this advanced banking system. I don't see anyone complaining when Americans talk about, for example, how superior their computer industry is [which it certainly is]. :)
:)), but rather because we have very few commercial banks, who maintain a sort of central banking system, which makes all of this possible.
I only hope you don't feel inferior because Finland has a better banking system than USA.
Finland isn't even the only country that maintains this advanced banking system, my country (Iceland) has also had online banking for perhaps 10 years, and I haven't seen people using checks for years now (though they still exist, I think). Use of cash has also declined rapidly in the last few years after the introduction of direct debit cards, which almost everybody has.
We have also had the ability to deposit money directly and instantly into other's people's accounts, and pay our bills, through the Internet for years, and more recently through WAP enabled mobile phones. This isn't because my country or nation is superior in any way (though many in my country like to think so
The situation in the other Nordic countries is probably quite similar.
Yes, it is wrong of people to boast about their advantages and mankind should be more humble than it currently is. And of course we shouldn't see us as greater beings just because we have access to better technology than other people.
But that doesn't concern this good Finn's comment. All he said was "Nobody uses checks [in Finland]. I doubt they even exist in this country." I, for one, don't consider his statement to be that ridiculous, of course this is an obvious overstatement, but an overstatement that clarifies the reality. In Finland, and most of Scandinavia, hardly anyone uses checks, they just aren't part of the daily life there, though they certainly exist.
His point wasn't to glorify Finland or himself, he was just saying that in other parts of the world, there are alternatives to credit cards and micropayment systems like PayPal. In order to survive, Paypal must face those alternative payment systems and win. It just isn't enough for Paypal to conquer America.
1 cent is still to large to be considered a micropayment in my book.
I have a sinking feeling that marketing and media hype may be well on the way to redefining the classic definition of micropayment to mean "less than $20".. I hope not. [sigh]
[Attention non-Americans: this is NOT a troll]
From what I've read a large part of the reason many credit-card accepting sites won't take customers outside the U.S. is the enormous rate of fraud they experience when dealing with non-US customers. Fraud per se wouldn't be so bad if some of these countries had law enforcement and judicial systems that were, to put it bluntly, honest and effective.
Couple this with the clusterfsck that comprises the banking and currency transaction laws and bureaucracies of many non-US countries and you have some serious barriers to entry. Some of this can be blamed on currency speculators who have in the past used electronic means to clobber currencies which caused the affected countries to enact laws which hinder EFT.
Instead of blaming everyone for being anti-{your country here} instead ask yourself what your country could do to make their economy more accessable so the paypals of the world CAN set up shop in your country.
So, you are calling the Fin a liar.
I would call that rude.
You mean like the guys who made Doom? Somehow I don't think that Carmack got his Ferrari by downloading it for free and not getting around to pay Ferrari the shareware fee. I bet he paid for it, and that money had to come from somewhere.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
...Slashdot karma!
Ok, you can't use it yet, but I'm sure that X.com has a huge interest in making sure you can sometime in the future. If it is a good idea (which I think it is) then I suspect that it, like credit cards, will spread.
What interests me about these type of services is their stock potential. Although the IPO rush is gone, there are still going to be a few that are really hot. I expect a service like this to be one of those simply because it has such potential.
But like others have said, it depends on whether or not they can do it right... that is quick, efficient, and multi-national.
-Frijoles-
What you need is a check card. My bank issues Visa debit cards. You can use them at stores (and PayPal) without telling the merchant that they're a debit card, and the money still goes straight out of your account. It's wonderful for people with no credit; if there's no money in your bank account then the card will be refused. I think MasterCard may do it too, lobby your bank for a check card.
I'm for it. I have PayPal/X.com handling my CD sales on Propaganda..Very quick, very easy. Best of all, its free..And no, I don't work for them. You can basically start doing e-commerce on your site within like 10 minutes, it's a cinch.
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
How "safe" can it be if I can't get at your site, right now, and access my money? Don't have that problem with cash in my wallet... and haven't so far with my online bank.
Yeahbut, no one who should have access has access either. I wasn't implying that the site isn't _secure_ - I have no idea whether or not it is, or how much so. But, if e-gold wants to be taken as seriously as a currency, it has to be as available as other currencies, meaning that if I need to do a transaction, it can be done. Dollars don't "go down". If I misplace my wallet, that's my fault... but people still trade cash. When e-gold 's servers go down, the entire e-gold economy goes with it. This isn't good, or acceptable for serious use.
As I understand it, one of the guiding principles behind e-gold is the idea that things ought to be valued in gold itself - you shouldn't be thinking in terms of exchange with other currencies. The thinking is that fiat money - dollars, Euros, etc. - are manipulable by governments, aren't true stores of value, and other things. This thinking comes out of some of the more hard-core elements of the libertarian / anti-government movement. Lots of gold bug literature goes into this - lots of doom and gloom about what'll happen with the government inevitably mismanages the currency. (it's happened lots of times in history so maintaining some of one's assets in some sort of commodity hedge, like gold, isn't such a bad idea. I do.) So, anyway, the performance of gold vis-a-vis USD isn't supposed to be relevant, because you're using gold as your base currency, not as an investment vehicle.
:-) ?
I haven't checked the e-gold site in a while, but as I recall some of the "why?" literature there was along these lines. At any rate, many e-gold supporters come from this viewpoint.
My personal take on e-gold is it's a neat idea, but in the end at best all it'd do is introduce yet another currency, and as long as it's under the control of one firm (which charges absurd exchange fees - you could buy/sell any currency in the world for less spread than they charge, even for small amounts), it can't amount to anything. Maybe what we need is OpenGold
What does the site not being accessable have to do with safety? Think of it as losing your wallet behind the couch. Your money isn't in danger, you just can't get to it for a while. Just because the site is down doesn't mean someone has access they shouldn't have.
Hmm, my bad. from some other comments posted here there is a storage cost, but it can't be much or I'd have remembered ;-).
YIKES! I have a daughter?!?!?
Oh, n/m.
Can't look it up atm as I somehow I can't reach www.e-gold.com :-(, but there are no storage fees, and the transfer fees are suprisingly small. All costs are listed in their faq. If you can still reach the site (it might just be my #%^*#$^%@ ISP), there's a link to the faq on their frontpage.
You think you won't have any problems because you have a perfect credit rating, and the closest you've ever been to credit card fraud is rading about it in the paper? Think again. PayPal uses a separate"fraud prevention" company that has its own mysterious, secret rules for who's an "acceptable risk" or not. It doesn't matter if you've never had even the tiniest problem with your credit or cards - if they decide, for whatever bizarre reason known only to them, that your card is a "risk", you can forget about using PayPal. And you can forget about ever finding out the mysterious reason that you've been rejected.
And PayPal couldn't care less. First, they try as hard as they can to blame it on your bank. When you finally prove that there's no problem with yoru bank, they hem and haw and beat around the bush and give you all kinds of doubletalk. When you ask them "why was my card rejected? What's the problem?" they simply have no answer.
I wouldn't use PayPal now even if they allowed my card, because clearly they couldn't care less about customer service or being open and honest with their customers.
Post the name of the bank then... I'm sure the /. crowd would hate to have their money in a bank that stored their money on MS products.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Hey, I agree with you to a large extent... sorry I took such a sharp tone with you earlier.. long day at the office and all that.
:)
/. Maybe there's hope for peace in the Middle East after all...
My point is just this; there are a great many bricks and mortar companies, not just banks, that mistakenly bought in to the whole idea that NT Server and its mutant brethren (Exchange Server, SQL, IIS, etc) were robust, enterprise-quality products.
Sure, tons of companies have done this.. One of my clients (a large Houston based PC maker) runs EVERYTHING on NT boxes. SAP, Email, the whole load... Granted, they had tons of boxes, but I suppose their hardware costs are relatively low
Talk about a security hole...with a modem and BO2K, or even PCAnywhere, you could transfer funds, open accounts, etc. without stepping foot in the building.
Well, I suppose this is true, but unless you have a brain dead firewall / DMZ system, you shouldn't be able to access these from outside the internal network anyway. If you have someone on the inside trying to do these things, the game is half over anyway. Now stability and robustness are another story...
Anyway, just thought this was sort of an interesting conversation; I'll admit, I heard you wrong (that'll teach me to jump into a conversation suddenly) but you gotta admit, there are more to "critical systems" these days than just database flavors running on big iron...
True, I think the DDOS kids and Melissa proved that a few months ago.. then again, against some of those attacks (OK, just DDOS) your OS of choice isn't going to matter alot...
Anyway, look at this, a civil discussion on
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Doubtful. Do you toss someone a quarter cause they compliment your hair? Micropayments have always existed in meatspace; it's called "opening your wallet and taking out a quarter/buck/fiver and handing it to the guy." If I help a guy fix a flat tire, I expect a handshake and a "thanks." Nothing more. Now somebody creates a system online that lets you open that wallet to someone you can't see. I doubt this will truly make our culture more money-centric than it already is.
True artists will always make their art/music/whatever cause they feel driven. Thomas Paine didn't write "Common Sense" because he wanted a nickel a copy; he wrote it to express his ideas. (And for that reason, it became the most-published pamphlet of his time.)
True artists online will continue to pump out whatever they have - scratching their proverbial itches, so to speak. At the bottom of the page, it might have a little voluntary paypal-donate link. So what? The true artists will still appreciate those heart-felt emails from fans.
Hmm, I agree, but for a different reason -- I expect they found various ways to prevent the various security problems, but there's still the question of making profits...
They've stated that they make their profit off the "float", the interest they earn on the money between the time that they charge your card and the time that they pay it out to the recipient, in the form of a check or some such.... Consider two different ways a scenario can play out:
In the first case, they have the information necessary to charge my card right at 11am, and can collect the interest on the money for 8 hours. In the second case, although the interaction between the two parties has taken place at 11am, PayPal doesn't find out about it (and thus can't charge my card) until 6:30pm, so they only get to collect interest for 30 minutes.
Yes, interest on a few tens of dollars for a few minutes or hours doesn't sound like much, but multiply it by hundreds of thousands of transactions in process at any given time and it really adds up. And in the scenario above, they'd collect 16 times as much profit (interest for 30 minutes versus 8 hours)... you do the math. I think that's why the Palm version got canned.
The key factor is that PayPal doesn't just have 3.3 million customers - they have a salesforce 3.3 million people strong trying to convince everyone else to use PayPal.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
New people would, but generally signing up for PayPal is pretty time consuming, and to a lot of people it's just not worth it for just $5, especially if they do not know PayPal - people who have not used it before are even reluctant to sign up for it in the context of auctions, where they get something four to five days sooner and don't have to bother getting a cashiers check! To just make a small donation to anyone is too much of a bother.
I wouldn't even bother trying to attract people who are not already PayPal members, instead I would go after the people who are already PayPal members. I already dropped $.50 just now at that fluffy or furry or whatever.net with the AOL Eliza transcripts, because I thought they were funny and I wanted to help him out a bit. But if I hadn't been a member I wouldn't have bothered.
As for the pictures, I appreciate what you are trying to do - I'm also a budding photographer, and want to make many of my best images availiabel to other people. I know they are your own pictures and not just images collected from somewhere - but I don't think anyone will give either you or me anything just because we have some interesting pictures. If they gain some small value, like being able to set them as a background or have enough resolution to make a decent print from, then I think they will feel more inclined to donate something to you - but again I feel that you can't get new PayPal users that way, you can only try and get existing PayPal users and just treat as a bonus anyone who signs up through you.
I mention the size 1600x1200 because there are a lot of people (including me) who run at 1600x1200, and there are few good phtographs anywhere at that resolution! If you make them only 1024x768 then you are competing against people like John Fielder and other professional landscape photographers who make sets of background images/screen savers. I know my own pictures are not going to be able to compete for mindshare in that space! People will see the images, say "nice picture", and move on. You want them longer than that, to think about the image somehow for a while or have them stare at it all day and think "Gee, I like that a lot and I think he deserves something for that". You either need a masterful picture or a decently sized picture for a background. I agree that the pictures you see at first should not be that large as that will drive people off, but you should make them availiable in that size.
Anyway, good luck with the site - I plan to do something similar someday with some of my own photography!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And even against the push from e-bay to use BillPoint, PayPal has spread like wildfire. Two reasons:
1) Horrible fees for sellers (flat plus a percentage).
2) PayPal bonus.
Mostly #1 though. Who would list with BillPoint? Sure they offered free transactions for Visa customers for the first month, but after that you face some terrible fees - why bother? Sellers have negative motivation to switch to BillPoint, and thus it has remained marginal. I do agree they might get a bit of a foothold if they manage to work international payments first, but even then PayPal could still come up with that a bit later and easily overtake them by installed base. As a seller I would rather take raw currency in other currency than use BillPoint.
The limited auction space I speak of the in sixty character or so description of an auction that you get when you do a search - "1863 Shenandoah County, VA Civil War $1 VF+" is one example. You aren't allowed much space there and so the use of the whole word "PayPal" speaks volumes about how widely accepted it is. Just for fun I did a search on eBay for PayPal and came up with 20,574 items (search for "billpoint" and you get just 108). That's just active stuff, in the completed item history they have 64,683 PayPal items.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Case in point: I live in Sweden, and our banking system is naturally very similar to the Finnish one. I know for a fact that most of what the original Finnish poster said is true for Sweden too. The last check I recieved was several years ago, and it was expensive to check in.
Myself, I've used online banking for five years, and there has been surveys saying that half of the Swedish populace uses online banking for payments and money transfer.
Where's your facts?
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
Once you give money to PayPal you'll never see it again unless and until you sue them
That's why eBay is the perfect driving force behind adoption of an e-cash system like this. Once you give money to Joe Q. Idiot to buy his auctioned item, you'll never see it again unless and until you sue him. PayPal seems pretty benign, compared to paying random strangers.
You neglected to mention in your message whether your FairTunes accepts PayPal...
Actually, the country you are thinking of is trying both at the same time.
For those who don't know, attempting to evade the reporting laws in this way is called "structuring," and is itself illegal.
While that seems improbable now given the current scale of your operation, I hope you've thought this issue through, preferably in consultation with your lawyer.
Expanding to international markets could be difficult since they've chosen to use the American dollar as their "base" currency.
This means that international users would have to constantly be converting based on floating exchange rates.
I know for a fact that AllAdvantage.com had a real problem with this. They had to change their payment scheme to pay out in local currency.
I'm curious to see how they will deal with this. Hopefully they'll find a way around it. It looks like a great system. I'll sign up as soon as its available up here in The Great White North.
Thats bizzare, whats a 'check card'??
Oh wait, that sounds like my ATM card - its a fully functional debit card... they're everywhere here in Canada. The cash comes straight out of your account!
If only you didnt live in a country that didnt suck? hmm
He was asking them to sign up for PayPal with him as the referer.
OK, billybob and Tet. Now you both realize that this is a cultural difference. If you are in the US, Tet, then you best follow our rules for tipping. 15 percent if you received good service. billybob, while I doubt you will ever venture out of our fine country, realize that tipping is not expected in much of Europe.
My mom works at a resort in Death Valley, CA and gets only European guests in the summer. They hardly ever tip and it frustrates her staff to no end.
Hear, hear. Your tipping rules are what I follow exactly.
I love working with computers and programming. I am lucky as hell that it pays as well as it does in this age. I never worked as hard as my siblings, but I'm paid more than twice what they are. Heck, I didn't even get a degree like they did. I am more than happy to recognize someone else that provides a service to me with a good tip. I want them to know that I appreciated their work.
I seem to be one of the few in this tipping thread that realizes that service workers are working for me when they provide a service.
I had my CC# stolen by "hackers" and released on a chat room. I know this because somebody who used it had a guilty conscience and emailed me. He was from another country, my bank seemed to have zero interest in tracking it down. The email clearly indicated the vendor from which it was taken.
I didn't lose any money; my credit union immediately credits its customers as soon as they dispute an amount. It's just that VISA,inc. didn't seem to care that one of their customer's accounts (I mean the company, not me) had obviously been compromised.
Yeah, watching my money exponentially decay (yes just like radiactive substances) has been the single thing that kept me from being really interested in e-gold.
I don't want my money to have a half-life.
Absolutely true (I'm the marketing-guy, but I'm impaired, I can't lie very well). That's why I said "go away" in the other message, though not in so many words. Allow me to elaborate:
JMR
Delivered-To: jray@e-gold.com
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:52:42 -0400
Subject: Explanation of the outage and slowness
To: "e-gold Discussion"
From: "Steve Foerster"
List-Unsubscribe:
List-Subscribe:
List-Owner:
Sender: bounce-e-gold-list-147@talk.e-gold.com
Status:
First, from all of us at G&SR, let me apologize for the inconveniences
that you have endured as e-gold's technical resources catch up to its
popularity. In the last few days a large network of e-gold customers
dramatically increased its activity, catching us just a few days before we
complete major hardware and software upgrades.
However, in the next few days we will be moving our database from our
paleolithic dual Pentium II 200MHz clunker to a new HP NetServer LH 6000.
A comparable upgrade in web server will be made at the same time.
While that alone would eliminate the lingering systemic lethargy, we're
also deploying a maintenance release to the current e-gold system that
will dramatically improve its design. As many people know, one of the
principle reasons for the issues that have been plaguing us has been that
the design of the original system -- now four years old! -- has
suboptimalities in its code and its database design. This maintenance
release will take advantage of a number of the current system's
opportunities for improvement.
Please note that this maintenance release is *not* the new e-gold system
that is coming later this year. That will be a completely new system,
written from scratch and using a different set of technologies.
I've established a new public list called "e-gold-tech" for discussing
this and other aspects of e-gold's use of technology, such as SSL
decryption boxes, geographically distributed servers, and so forth. To
see this and other lists, please visit . If you'd like to respond to this
message, please subscribe to the tech list and do so there, rather than on
this "list" list.
Thanks,
-=Steve=-
================
Stephen H. Foerster
Chief Technical Officer
e-gold * G&SR/OmniPay
---
You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: jray@e-gold.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-e-gold-list-147S@talk.e-gold.com
Try e-gold - (contact me). I'm NOT e-
In Italy, that's the way it is. Restaurants often list a nominal "service fee" on the menu, and that fee goes to your waiter(s); no tip is expected.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
Just ask anyone how much work it is to pay for shareware - or for the author to collect it. Isn't the idea behind paypal that this would be REALLY easy? I've thought about buying shareware in the past, but I'm a lazy bastard - and to write a check and mail it was more work to me than the software was worth...
They have already started. Paypal and X.com merged some time ago. Expect to see tighter intigration and expansion of services as time goes.
Does everyone else but me tip gas jockeys too?
I do, but I rarely encounter them. I dunno about other parts of the world, but here (Aiken, SC, USA), full (or even partial) service gas stations just don't exist. About the only place that I tend to see them is down around the coast, in the expensive resort areas.
--Matthew
"Thanks, here's a $1 micropayment!"
If we wanted to do that, we could do it already, with ordinary cash. So I don't see why the existence of electronic micropayments would change anything about our attitudes.
The reason that I wouldn't use a palm pilot to store cash, is that it has no way to isolate one program from another. The hardware lacks an MMU.
If you want the details on the implications of this, I think you can find them on the e-language archives, which are hosted at the Extremely Reliable Operating System web site (www.eros-os.org)
Any handheld device that could run EROS, on the other hand, would do just dandy.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Who knows? Regardless, I'll know fairly quickly when they can deal with Canadians, since I had them add me to a list of people who want to be mailed when its ready.
Intolerant people should be shot.
And of course, they won't beable to get a large marketshare in the states because of PayPal's dominance (by then), giving the world wonderful compatibility issues for trading across the US border...
Intolerant people should be shot.
By the entire world, I assume you include the United States in that. So yes, PayPal is a useful in the real world.
If it only worked in Canada, then it would still be useful in the real world. Just only for Canadians. Sure international is better, but you have to start somewhere.
If it's not a smart card, what's the difference between Switch and a normal debit/credit card? Do you enter a pin code and wait for a bank confirmation?
So far, I have only seen one store here in NY that offers the "swipe + pin code" thing. In every store I go to, you actually give the card to the cashier, who swipes the card and awaits confirmation. No pin code to enter. Meaning that losing your card is actually much riskier.
And that's new? :) I forget what the bank fee overhead is in my country. It's low enough that buying a $1 soda isn't a problem.
People also tend to use stores as ATMs, something which the stores gladly do, they even ask if you want extra money -- if you buy a $1 soda, you might ask to get 20 bucks in cash, which means $21 is withdrawn from your bank account -- plus a tiny, tiny fee, I believe.
I'm amazed that many ATMs here in the US will actually charge you a fee ($1-$2) to withdraw money from other banks. PayPal (to get back on topic) on the other hand will occasionally give you money.
you need a creditcard for paypal. creditcards in the netherlands are not very well accepted: they are seen as unsafe and unnecessary, and not without reason. any creditcard based service will fail.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Why wouldn't you want to pay your caterer? My DJ is a PayPal user, and I just sent him our deposit by PayPal. At least I don't have to trust him with my credit card number... Of course, it's been a week, and we still haven't gotten back a signed contract, so maybe I should have used the credit card.
Walt
Actually, I'm not asking for anything from the viewer, not even 50 cents. They gain $5 on their own, without paying me anything, by setting up a new account. (If they have an account already, well, they can tip me whatever they want or nothing at all.) Hmm... Perhaps I need to make that clearer on my site, if you viewed my site and didn't understand.
As for images being readily available on the Web, well, mine aren't. The idea is to share images I've created (my photography), not just stuff I've grabbed from other sites or whatever. Given that the idea is for viewing them online, I don't think most people would want to wait for, or try to display, a 1600x1200 image. That might be appropriate if they were printing them, but I don't expect that.
No Laughing Allowed!
...surely it would be possible to do business with *some* non-US countries? The ones that had good security and law enforcement etc. The problem might be on the US side, you know...
As an immigrant to California from Europe, I can assure you that the US has both a more primitive banking system, more crime, and stupid bureaucracy than my home country.
Su dude, ask yourself your own question. And why not travel around the world a bit? It's fun, and it's not all like Sudan and Bosnia.
Q, X, and Z are grandfathered.
All other 1 letter (and 1 digit) .com domains are reserved.
Do you expect people to guarantee that you'll provide the same service to you for eternity? That's unreasonable.
OTOH, n should be large. Like a lease. For consumer stuff, it's one thing, but for business you want at least a few months of the service you were offered before it changes. (And of course they should be required to notify you.)
"Actual money"? Like cash?
Cash doesn't have any guarantees; it's awful hard to recall. It may not be possible to make a digital payment scheme that is both as easy to use as cash and as safe as a credit card.
Unfortunately the network throws a wrench in the works because everything is inherently less safe.
Buying stuff from unknown web sites using digital cash is like giving cash to a guy on the street who wants to sell you "his" bicycle or stereo.
Get a chump bank account, give them the number and after they've spent the time to verify its validity, have the bank account cancelled and/or frozen from any withdrawls.
-Vel
Someone liked my mp3's on mp3.com enough to 'tip' me, however I was unnable to accept as I'm Canadian. I was more dissappointed to tell someone who was obviously a (valuable) fan that I couldn't accept their gift than missing out on some money.
(PS - Thirty-Nine Days on mp3.com)
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
It's not about showing gratitude. It's about making it convenient to be honest and not a thief.
DB
Certain jobs that people preform for you usually involves tipping that person. Waitresses (not the girl at BK though..), pizza delivery people, etc. are usually tips. I disagree though that people that don't tip are jerks; if the service is lousy, i don't tip. Why should i? i tip b/c i want to encourge the person to continue providing good service. And i'm a college student, soo if i can afford it, i think most people can.
Tips should never be required. As for lousy service; leave them 1 cent or so. maybe they'll get the hint. I hear you when you complain about running out of drink. For me thats the single biggest factor in determining how much of a tip someone gets. I usually leave 15-20% if i never have to ask for another drink, it just appears, and i'll leave as low as 1 cent for waiting 30mins to ask her for another.
Hmm, in the Netherlands, the last time I saw a check was 15 years ago (way before general use of online banking, though that is available for 10 years now, not via internet but via dial-up modems or automatic systems that work via ordinary telephones).
When I was in the US some years ago, I was amazed by the primitive banking system too.
The reason you don't have checks (at least in the Netherlands) is that there is a (state-promoted) Giro system, that all banks must be attached to. Thus, you could always transfer money from anyone to anyone, as long has he has a bank account somewhere. All banks participate in the Giro-system where the exchanges are made.
Same in Switzerland. In fact in all European countries it is also possible to transfer money directly (for minimal cost) to bank accounts in other European countries. You just give the SWIFT code of the bank (SWIFT is a European system that all banks are part of (must be by law)) and the account number. No checks involved.
Three years ago I received a check from the US. I had to go through great troubles to even cash it (had to open a new bank account just to cash the check).
The US has always lacked a centrally dictated bank system, which led to fragmentation and to a primitive check system (and thus also to the rise of credit cards as a kind of alternative banking system that is interoperable).
Therefore, in the US now you see many different initiative such as PayPal.
In Europe there are much less, bigger similar systems for online payments. Usually there is one such system per state (sometimes a few of them cooperate) which is sanctioned by that countries central bank.
IMO it is very likely that the European central bank will sanction one or two systems for online (micro)payments in the near future, based on things like SET. I don't believe that the small scale US initiatives like will get hold here.
The established banks, which already have a tradition of more cooperation (having mutuals exchange systems) and online banking, will come up with the systems for online payments.
North America also has advanced banking systems(online transfers and such). All you need is the account number number AND their bank routing.
The problem is more that North American users aren't as advanced as the banking systems. It may also be that we are so accustomed to writing checks that the easier way hasn't gained enough momentum to be obviously easier.
"The area of penetration will no doubt be sensitive." ~ Spock
This is hardly the same thing. When you tip
the street performer that entertains you
on broadway during intermission, you do it at
the end and he leaves, as do you. When you
"tip" ID, they give you more...
"And how can this be? For he is the
I used to work @ an idealab.com company. When I worked @ the company, well when I interviewed there I interviewed @ payme.com an idealab company. Idealab is a company which basically takes cool ideas like paypal and tries to copy them (payme was a copy of paypal .. their new incubating company payola.com is a copy of alladvantage .. their wireless company is a copy of every palm wireless company that exists now like avantgo.. what a lack of innovation) .. And payme.com basically went out of business due to their $5 referral.. Everybody laughed @ them then defrauded them. one person got away with about $60k .. just by using a couple bank accounts and fake credit cards, signing up thousands of new accounts a day and making $$ off of the 10% which would slip by with validly generated credit card #s... scary huh?
"And how can this be? For he is the
Those that tip will always be less than the freeloaders. I don't think there can ever be a business model built on a system of tipping. Look at television - PBS begs and pleads for just a tuppance, while the other channels are awash in advertising and we get free entertainment. Advertising is here to stay - why pay when your friendly neighborhood corporation will pay for you?
--
Chaosnetwork
OliverWillis.Com
An Operative with an Agenda
where's thanks.php?
--
The shareholder is always right.
> I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that
... of course it offers its services first in the US alone. Do you know how many miserable laws stand between them and operating their business in YOUR country? Gimme a break. Should their home page just say "PayPal coming soon (pending regulatory approval and commencement of business in all 185 countries worldwide)."
> the success of Paypal in the US is any indicator of
> whether this is actually useful in the real world. By
> that, I mean, the entire world.
It's an American company
If you have another company (perhaps a non-US one) in mind, then let us know about it. If you want to define the way this industry will work, then start your own micropayment company.
I've only lived in the US for a few years, and I can tell you, whining to Americans about the state of affairs in YOUR country is a waste of time. They don't care (and why should they). Go whine to your gov't representative. Nine times out of 10 you'll find that the people who are really holding things up are just down the street from you.
The fact that there are orders of magnitudes more monies being exchanged via the internet in the US than Germany.
I contacted them since their website says they plan to open up to the international community. Their reply was that it was "still in the works"
I can't imagine a safer more convenient way to setup for example a system were international members of a club can pay dues. Or quickly pay for that item you bought on Ebay without having to go to the bank for a damn cashier's check.
The hugest bonus, is it avoids all the hassles of dealing with currency exchanges directly, since you can use your credit card to make payments to the people... (no more ridiculous bank fees for getting a damn check in US funds)
Anyways... if anybody at Paypal is reading, it would be nice if you posted some information on when the service will be open to international customers.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
eBay now has an integrated electronic payment system with Billpoint. So while PayPal has not been banned on the site, it certainly isn't getting any promotion from eBay as such. Billpoint is plastered all over the site. When listing an item, it is simply a matter of checking a box for Billpoint acceptance. There is no need to include anything in the auction description. I contend that in the long term Billpoint will ultimately replace PayPal for the majority of transactions on eBay.
As has been mentioned previously a number of times, PayPal does not handle international users. Billpoint is similar in that it only covers US based sellers, but can accept payments from people located anywhere in the world. Judging by the pace of change on the eBay Int'l sites with the take up of core features (see Regionals) I don't see Billpoint being available on the Int'l eBay sites, and therefore Int'l sellers, until well into 2001. If PayPal can move quicker than this then they may have that first mover advantage. However, Billpoint will always have the advantage of eBay backing. I am surprised that a major push wasn't made by eBay/Billpoint to have Int'l seller functionality available for eBay Australia in time for the 2000 Olympic Games held in Sydney. There is currently a lot of trade on eBay Australia in Olympic memorabilia, and likely to be be even more in the upcoming weeks.
One last thing - "limited auction description space". What's so limited about the eBay auction description space? The only limits I can think of is that theoretically it can only be one HTML page in size and that to include anything more than straight text a knowledge of HTML is required, or use of auction assistant software like that offered by Blackthorne. Essentially if you can write HTML then the auction description space can be as complex as you like or require.
Brought to you by the author of such childrens' classics as "Some Kittens can Fly!" and "All Dogs go to Hell."
Does anyone know if there is anything like this already in existance? Would you use it if it were available?
I do not know of any such thing like that but if I did I would probably be using it, for the same reasons you would.
I don't care to encumber myself with credit cards and no way will I give out a bank account number to be debited by someone other than myself. I don't want someone else charging me at inopportune times. They can send a bill and I'll deal with it. Maybe not same day, but before the due date -- and I won't suddenly find my account depleted because I decided to withdraw just after someone else did the same.
Convenience is a great thing. Control is a great thing. I want both. If I have to trade off, I'll put up with a bit of inconvenience (like mailed bills and money orders - postal so I can sic the Inspection Service on problems if need be) rather than give up control.
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
Since when are the one letter domains not reserved? Did I miss out on something?
confusion.
All right, stepping out of anonymous cowardice here... it's not as if I were trying to hide anything.
It's not so much the fact that they'll *have* the number that bothers me -- as you point out, anyone can just get it off a check -- but the fact that, in giving it to them in this manner (according to the posted terms of use), I am authorizing them to make EFT's from (and/or to) the account forever after (there is NO option to "remove a bank account from your PayPal account" -- I checked!).
As soon as I have given them my account number, they are then authorized to execute an EFT at any time without my physical signature on a paper check: only a click or two of the mouse is necessary to approve each one. And by "verifying" my account, I agree to these terms. Again, there's no obvious way for me to withdraw my EFT authorization after "verifying."
As someone else pointed out, they offer insurance against possible fraudulent transfers from my bank account. That's good, because federal law does not protect me here as it does with, say, credit cards. With the credit card, if a fraudulent transfer does occur, the CC company has to prove that I was responsible (by omission or commission) for the fraud, else I am not liable for it. With preauthorized bank account EFTs of this sort, the situation is a lot less clear (which is why the private insurance is needed), but one thing is quite obvious: the money is GONE from my bank account until I persuade PayPal's insurer to put it back.
And that, in short, is why I don't want to link my bank account to my PayPal account.
Kiscica
Well, from their Jobs page They're looking for a Risk Management Specialist and a Legal Counsel with international experience, so maybe that's holding them up.
With this new system, we are bound to start seeing homeless people going hi-tech. Out with the days of sitting on the street begging for money, in with the days of being harrassed by bums in cyber-cafes!
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
The paypal tipping idea is working. Quite a few of the people that are doing "underground" work on the TiVos have gotten money. People are giving a few dollars here and there to show their appreciation and it shows.
According to PayPal's FAQ, their service is only for US residents at the moment, too. They say they're going to expand it internationally beginning this year.
I use PayPal, and I LOVE it. It has really revolutionized the way I buy and sell stuff on eBay (that is how I first discovered and started using it). Recently I went out to dinner with my roommate (who also does eBay and uses PayPal for it), and having no cash on me (which is a fairly constant state with me) I said "Hey, would you mind if I just sent you a PayPal payment when I get home?" She said no problemo. Ever since that I've been using it for stuff like borrowing cash (which I need to do alot), paying for my part of an evening's outing, etc.
:(
:)
At first this was great, but rather cumbersome. I had to whip out my Visor (PalmPilot compatible unit) and write a memo to myself to "Send $X to Joe". Eventually one of my friends saw me doing this, and asked me "Huh? Don't you have the PayPal software for PalmOS?" I looked at him blankly, and that very night, went onto the PayPal website, found and downloaded the software.
My first reaction when I started playing with it was: "Whoa!!" (said in a Neo-esque voice)
This was terrific!!! Both my roomie and all of my friends had some sort of Palm device or another (or compatible). I could now beam money to them!! And if they didn't have the software, I could beam it as well!! No more having to write down a reminder in Memo Pad. Just drop it in my cradle, and everything is synced up.
Then a few weeks ago, my micro-payment life came to an abrupt and sad end. I received an email in my inbox from X.com/PayPal, saying that they were discontinuing their PalmOS support. I had to re-read the message five times to fully comprehend it.
Then I sat there in dumbfounded shock wondering just why the HELL they went and did this stupid thing.
I mean, think about it: Palm units are now becoming very cheap (e.g. with the $149 m100 and the Handspring Visor standard edition; and you can get older units secondhand for even less) and are rapidly becoming commonplace. Think "instant, VERY LARGE user base."
The company where I work buys a PalmPilot for each and every employee, from the big cheese all the way down to the lowliest tech. They have totally standardized on Palm. And the whole company LOVES PayPal -- we'd beam each other money to cover business lunches or casual get-togethers, or whatever. But not any more...
In their letter, they said that they would be focusing more on the wireless web type stuff. I'm sorry, but that won't do me a flying fsck's good. Nor does it do much good to most of my friends or acquaintances either. We don't have any wireless web service in my area, and the cost of the equipment and the service is still prohibitively high for me. (I am barely able to afford my monthly cell phone charges as it is).
So, X.Com/PayPal, what were you thinking??!??!
OK, I am not the type to just rant on and on, but not present my take on a possible solution for the problem. So, PayPal, if you are listening, here is what I would do if I were you.
* Keep on developing a mobile phone/WAP/whatever solution. The people who own/use those devices will be thrilled and will thank you from the bottom of their hearts (and their pocketbooks). And when I become financially better off, hell, I'll probably (no, make that DEFINITELY) want one of these gizmos too.
* But please, for God's sake, DON'T scrap your PalmOS efforts. If you do, I think you will find that you will lose a large current user base, but more importantly, you will lose an even larger POTENTIAL user base.
* And if you stick with the Palm, DON'T make it wireless based. (I can't afford a Palm VII, nor the monthly service fees, and neither can a great many people out there, either.)
* Make a Macintosh version of the PayPal sync software. It would be nice if you could make a Linux version as well, to integrate with kpilot or the other Linux sync tools. ("What about the BSD's?", you say. Well, they all have Linux emulation, so they will be able to run it too!)
* And also, since I am not an OS bigot, please make a WinCE version as well, so that all the H/PC, H/PC Pro, Palm PC, and Pocket PC folks can join in on the fun. I just bought myself a Compaq iPaq. I still have my Visor, and I love both devices, and I use both daily. It would be great if I could also use my iPaq for PayPal as well.
* And, for heaven's sake, ADVERTISE your PalmOS/CE/WAP/whatever offerings in a PROMINENT place on your website! I had to dig around to find the PalmOS software. But a BIG button like "PayPal for Palm" on the main screen would have made the search a lot easier. I bet you, if you put that on your site, you wold get many people emailing you saying "Gee, I didn't know you could do THAT!!!"
There, I feel better now that I have gotten that out of my system.
--
Yomigaeru Aiyan Geek!!!
I've lived in Finland for most of my life, and during that time I have received exactly one (1) check: a gift from my grandparents. Writing a check is expensive, getting a check cashed is expensive, why on earth bother when electronic transfer is free and much less cumbersome? Just type in a few numbers, either on your home computer or an ATM, and press OK -- that's all there is to it.
(Of course, here in Japan I can do an electronic transfer by punching those few numbers into my mobile , but that's a different story...)
Cheers,
-j.
And how is it that they make more than the $5?
The first I heard of the Palm PayPal app or PayPal for that matter was because of the service cancelation.
--
--
blinko - "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down"
Yeah we all know how Finland is way behind in mobile technology... and who ever heard of a fin writing any decent code, like an OS or something? ;-)
All opinions are my own - until criticized
This was a point I was going to make, actually.
:)
I couldn't find out from the website how small the sums could be, so thanks for the info
A while ago I was part of a team working on a micropayment system which could handle payments of about 100th of a cent, IIRC. (Below that the amount of processing power needed for the encryption etc starts to cost more than the transaction is worth, after the various other slices have been taken out.) Ideal for things like dictionaries, online papers etc - I'd be happy to pay 100th of a cent every time I used www.dictionary.com, but a whole cent would start to put me off, I suspect.
Perhaps "minipayment" would be a more appropriate term for PayPal.
Jon
Have you looked into x.com? At least it doesn't require a credit card--in fact, the offer to issue one of those bank cards that looks like a credit card. They were also issuing $20 for signups/referals instead of $5 but I think that's over.
It's a full bank system, and nearly everything is free, including micro-payments to another user (athough I'm not sure what happens if that user doesn't want to open an Xbank account.)
Just a thought.
Yes, exactly, it's a bounced check. But forcing wireless net access on the device doing the transfer prevents such a thing from ocurring - if it bounces, it'll bounce immediately. I'm sure these kinds of things are why PayPal discontinued the beaming app. It was great for most people (where the ammounts are like $5 and the guy beaming you is a good friend), but financial empires are not built on systems that depend on no one trying to be fraudulent. Not successful ones, anyway. :)
That just about makes me want to cry...know of any other forum sites around?
Free music from Jack Merlot.
This isn't a rights issue, this is a usage issue. You should use PayPal as a MICROpayment service. In other words, don't make any payments you are not willing to eat if the deal goes sour.
For big purchases, use the credit card.
Maybe the majority of your viewers already have a PayPal account?
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
And the flip side is that I have waited on plenty of tables where I was on top of refills and gave customers great service, only to receive a 5-8% tip.
If you don't like the way the US works, move. If you want to get good service in a restaurant tip. If anything encourages servers to be apathetic it's tight asses like you who resent having to tip.
Absolutely. You are totally and completely justified in a different view of the system. Now if you come into my restaurant and act like a know it all who doesn't tip, then I will suddenly become incompetent and forget to get your drink refills or anything else.
I've waited tables for 3 years. I used to be professional at 100% of my tables. Now I'm professional at 95% of my tables, and save up all my apathy for you. It is an incentive based system. If you want to be a tight ass and not tip, that is fine, but don't expect to get the service for free.
ps. pizza delivery drivers make lower than minimum wage. Tipping is a neccessity.
"No! Paying them is their employer's responsibility, not mine. No one is forcing them to do the job. If they don't like the salary, they should find a better paid job. I'll tip if they've given good service, but 15% is way over the top"
15% IS WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DOES! Absolutely it is your right not to tip, but don't get pissy when you get bad service next time.
The real beauty of this is that if I waited on you and gave you good service. I'm guessing you would tip around 5-10% since 15% is "way over the top" The next time I might give you shitty service. The really great thing is that I work very hard for my money and am well liked and respected by my managers and my coworkers, so even if you whined to the manager about my poor service, it wouldn't affect me at all.
heh, you're right. that was my mistake, i should have realized that.
I regularly post auctions on ebay and was growing increasingly impatient with Paypal's eternal promise that they would be offering their services internationally. Although the fact that I live in Canada is clearly displayed in the auction header, many people blindly place bids with the intent of using Paypal and will actually reneg on their bid when they find out that is not an option! I finally decided to get an American mailing address two weeks ago for this sole purpose and have been overwhelmed with repeat sales to bidders who confessed that they would not buy from me if I didn't use Paypal. So don't get frustrated, just do what I did, suck it up and get an American mailing address! Paypal rules, it's worth the effort!
"My heart gave a shiver, 'cause I was livin in a VAN, down by the river!" - Matt Foley, motivational speaker.
Great, with PayPal you now can be panhandled via email! "Please sir, can you spare .25 for a cup of coffee?"
If you want to make something standard, you need a big backer. In this case, paypal got one of the biggest: Ebay. Because of Ebay's endorsement (and unique support for) paypal has blossommed. Now that its the clearly in the lead in the race for success, it should only be a few days before Microsoft buys it out and makes it a part of their passport service.
They may get very rich, but they will not have any longevity if they don't go international, regardless of all the risks included. Basically, if they don't someone else will. Who do you think I will signup with considering that I'm not American.
I suspect that if PayPal doesn't push to cover all of North America and get to Europe, they will see strong competition come from Europe. Europe, with its unified currency seems to me to be a perfect place for this type of company to start, and if they are aggressive. Well...sucks to be PayPal.
From the messages I have seen on this, it looks like x.com is going for mobile devices through one of the mobile protocols (such as WAP or iMode, once the equiv. finally comes the states).
They are betting on the technology curve. As opposed to writing to and supporting one platform (PalmOS), they want to write to and support one protocal (such as WAP or iMode) that will be understandable and usable by your Palm Pilot, Motorola Pager, Nokia Mobile Phone, electronic dog collars....
Adler
Everybody denies I am a genius--but nobody ever called me one!
My intentisn't to pick on e-gold, but on this practice in general. "I agree to $foo, $bar, and $baz, but you can change them any time you want." Why do you accept this?'
----
Some of us don't "Accept" it, so much as we don't have the time to be on the phone with customer service that often;follow up in email and follow that up the corpladder w/ email, and phone calls. I see no reason for Paypal, etc.,etc. to not let me be anonymous. I think Iescrow modified my billing address because they hadn't stated items would ship in my name, but paypal insists. Odd, my company would get it to my mailstop faster via my corporate initials (which aren't my real initials). I'd love to have an internet account like X.com which would allow me to keep a minimum of funds and overdraft protection, for Paypal, so even if someone did get my account info, they simply couldn't get much from it. (www.x.com just stopped allowing POS transfers. An internet account that's slower than my brick and mortar. Not wise)
If you got my money, backed by visa, would you care if you knew my name?
they'll do chargebacks in response to buyer complaints/credit card fraud/etc.
Check the terms and conditions. Its not as bad as all that. You can be protected as long as you get proof of delivery and you're a verified seller (Plus you'll help catch a fraudster)
You might still find it a little too risky. Its your choice.
If someone installed a trojan in your computer, would he not get instant access to your wallet?
Old "harmless" viruses and trojan horses could only delete your files. Now a virus can delete your cash!
See the terms of use, section II.2.e. PayPal are not liable if this happens!
On the other hand, section III talks about Insurance Against Unauthorized Access. But how do you prove that a payment to pr0n@s3x.com was unauthorized? If the trojan deletes itself after doing it?
)9TSS
"We are the most ripped of company around" - Bill Gates 1980 Now they must be the biggest rippers around, some turn around this ;-).
-anand
Egoism of the first scale.
In Canada and the EU, you can use chipcards to pay for stuff and to use the ubiquitous payphones (except in Italy, where the phonecards are micro-magstripped).
You know the AmEx Blue card with the chip? In the EU, it's old hat.
The corporations are screwing over the people of the US. Thank God I've a dual citizenship with an EU country. (When the data goes to hell here, I bail, start a EU corp, and make like a thief.)
Just think about a) 3G, the wireless fat-pipe standard which the EU will have in place within 18 months and the US won't get until 2010 because of the "standards wars" betwixt GSM, CDMA, and TDMA; b) payphones, which have been vanishing in most of the US but are EVERYWHERE in the EU; c) Amsterdam... enough said.
"And they said onto the Lord.. How the hell did you do THAT?!"
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Yes, the North European countries have advanced banking systems. PayPal won't have as much leverage there as it has in the US.
In North European countries, all you need to know is a person's bank account number and you can make a deposit pretty effortlessly (on-line | with your mobile phone | walking a couple of blocks to the nearest pay-ATM).
What does PayPal really offer?
a) A mapping between a person's e-mail address and his/her preferred money transfer system.
b) Buffering of micro payments.
Both valuable services that could just as well be provided by the banks themselves, possibly assisted with applications like GnuCash.
Two related points:
1) Finland will soon have electronic money. This should be compatible across over-the-counter payments and net commerce.
2) Nokia was/is a backer of PayPal. Nokia is Finnish and uses Finland as a testing ground.
One-upmanship aside, the direct debit cards mentioned elsewhere in the thread are a substantial infrastructure investment. It requires the full co-operation of banks.
In Finland, one can do almost totally away with cash. You can buy beer in a bar, food in the store, everything with these cards. A direct money transfer from your bank account is as fast or faster than a physical cash transfer between hands, and means a lot less hassle.
This is the main reason why the amount of cash in circulation in Finland is 2,5% of the GNP, half that of other countries in Europe. (What is the value in the US?)
I haven't heard of anyone in Finland using checks for the last 15 years, and credit cards are rare compared to the US. What do you really need those for: credit? Usually not. Ease of use is the real reason. And that is what debit cards give you.
They should be required to give you six months of service at your previous T&C, buy you out with an added percentage, or what have you. Notifications should be both by email and snailmail.
This has two effects: One, it protects your rights as a consumer who entered into a contract with them in good faith. Two, it makes them not change their T&C unless it's absolutely necessary, minimizing change. People don't tend to want change in their financial institution. This is of course because they worked very hard to amass some numbers, which is a fairly bogus concept to begin with. When something tweaky happens to those numbers, it makes them feel insecure - myself included.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This is irrelevant anyhow; There's plenty of room to use PayPal in other countries tied only to a bank account. Since the money will be in the account before it is sent, and X.com is a bank, then there is no risk to a merchant.
Hopefully, the currency will remain local until you spend it. I'd personally very much like to see paypal become global. It would make life far easier, and it wouldn't step on any governmental toes since it does not create any private currency.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I don't know, you're welcome to try. My email is martin at mediax dot com.
Hey, if everyone who reads /. gives me a penny, I can buy two ice cream cones and a baggie of wafers at swensen's!
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That doesn't help you if you need your money right now to pay that ransom note. PS, I have your daughter in a tool shed somewhere in the United States...
PS for the humor impaired, this is a joke. I don't have anyone's daughter in a toolshed. Feel free to send me large amounts of money anyway.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
They've had to put up with you; I suspect that should be enough to warrant a tip, a raise, and a two week long vacaction.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Then you missed the part about $100,000 of insurance from Traveler's Insurance placed on each account (for free).
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
If it looks viable, a major player could push them out in months.
Actually, "A major player" would take months to just decide if it looks viable. Massive companies like Citibank do not move quickly. If they decide to do this, you can look forward to it rolling out about a year to two years after they make the decision. We're talking about an industry bigger and more monolithic than the Recording Industry... and look how long it has taken them to start offering digital music.
Another big problem with your idea is: Paypal has, so far, not made any money of it's customers. Credit Card Companies rape their customers for insane profits. Banks don't do quite as well, but still make good money. I don't think the big guys even want a part of this business... There is not a big enough profit margin there for them.
Paypal loses money right now to build market share by paying $5 per sign-up and another $5 per referral.
Now suppose CitiBank decides they want to play. They set up a system along similar lines, but pay $20 per sign-up, %10 per referral, and $50 for every former PayPal customer that switches. Paypal can't afford to piss money all over the internet that fast, but Citibank can... plus they have name recognition and an IRL customer base that Paypal lacks.
I think that paying members to switch might be illegal. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know. It just sounds fishy. Not really sure how they would verify the switch, also. And would switching mean you had to quit paypal, or just sign up for the new service. Because if it didn't make them quit paypal, it would only encourage new users to join paypal first. "Hmm, I can join citibank online for $20, or I can join paypal, then switch to citibank online for $5 + $20 + $50."
Now, suppose you are a blood-sucking CEO of a major international bank, and you arrive at the conclusion that Paypal is not only going to make money, but will slowly migrate into the banking business... What would you do? Let it happen, or pull a Microsoft? Thought so.
I can see one of these companies trying to buy Paypal and I'm sure some have already offered. This I conceed. I doubt though that a large bank could just step in and take over the market. Usually whoever offers the best service first wins. Ebay's own payment system can't compete with paypal... That should tell you something.
I don't know if I buy this "paypal is the bank of the future" idea, but it is definitely very popular and will only get moreso.
Josh Sisk
It's the year 2009 and the IRS has finally gotten off its big bureaucratitic butt...and they're pissed.
Now that 80% of the population is using e-mail to send cash, they want to know where their cut is on this deal. Oh, you mean you didn't know that when money exchanges hands needed to pay tax on it? And how much business did you do on E-Bay in Fiscal Year 2006?
House Bill 187 gets introduced and passed into law by a Republican president (who made one too many tax cuts over the past few years and it isn't an election year) which requires all electronic payment services to begin reporting all transactions to the IRS. Conveniently, the taxes will be automatically deducted from all payments as a convenience to consumers everywhere.
Just remember friends, technololgy has an equal and opposite reaction to the dissemination of information: the more it tends to free it, the more it gets imprisoned (once corporations get their hands on it).
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
And i quote:
Raising venture capital supposedly has become much more difficult since April's crash in technology stocks, but X.com has done it again, raising $30 million in series D funding.
The Palo Alto, California-based online payment processor raised $100 million in April, after having merged with PayPal in March.
The lead investor in this round was the investment arm of French retail bank Credit Agricole. X.com spokesman Vince Sollitto said Agricole also would serve as a strategic advisor as the company moves into Europe and other countries.
If she floats, she's a witch.
Hmmm. Maybe their profit model isn't *completely* based on the float ....
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
It's *really* *easy* to come up with really bad protocols for this sort of thing. I didn't see anything on their site except "we use 128-bit encryption" and "our server is behind a firewall". Neither of these give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
David Chaum's "Digicash" has all of the nifty features that you'd want with digital cash/micropayments/whatever you want to call it -- security, anonymity, non-duplicatibility, non-repudiation, and so forth. Unfortunately, Digicash went bankrupt. Not surprising, given that the only US agent charged 5% to put money into an account and %5 to take money out.
I suspect that there was Government pressure here. After all, the vast majority of folks out there are drug dealing, embassy bombing, money laundering, MP3 downloading child pornographers who have to be watched every minute.
Lay you odds that the PayPal computers have a complete, detailed record of who sent what to who, accessible by a single phone call by an "authorized law enforcement agent".
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
On another subject, I remember that there was a guy in the early digital cash space that was trying to create anonymous digital cash. He considered it important from a privacy standpoint that digital cash should be untraceable, just like regular cash. I would imagine PayPal is not that, but does anyone know what happened to that guy or what happened with his technology?
Being both anonymous and untraceable, he could not be reached for comment...
"Sweet creeping zombie Jesus!"
-The Professor, Futurama
i have to admit that i used it several times before i realized that i wouldn't have any recourse (or at least that is that i am told ...) ... still, it is a lot handier than writing a check or getting a money order, etc ...
i wonder what yall feel about "soon to roll out" "private payment" systems - a setup whereby you go to credit/charge card site and get a special limited use (times, duration) account number that is different than your real one ... to allow potential shoppers who are wary of using their "real" credit card number - the processing system(s) then have to translate the "bogus" number into a legitimate number for billing purposes ...
AZspot
Imagine this. An entity whose sole purpose is to make money for its owners becomes the major monetary transport media in the US. Pretty soon, MSFT is a two-digit proportion of the US GDP. Democratically elected representatives of the people feeding this beast quiver in fear and reverence, and pander slaveringly. MS representatives garner considerable airtime and begin to influence mass public opinion by pointing out failures of government to meet certain needs of public. Public agrees with MS and decides to like them. MS hikes up their cut on transactions, buys most big media outlets, and pummels govt with plebian consipiracy theories...
God, this train of thought is too sickening to contemplate!
--
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
Paypal works great. It is a verry handy system. Thank god it works better than the older companies that tried this.
The older systems were jokes. Always loosing your $$$$.
http://www.privatebuy.com/ from ecount.
Last year I was in a seminar in London, about e-commerce. When we discussed about CC processing and protocols there was this guy from a leading -worldwide- CC processing company (one that provides services in many e-commerce sites all over the world). This guy told us that it was his company's belief than even though SET was much more advanced than SLL -because it provides authentication for both merchant and consumer- it is not widely used and will not be succesful.
The reason is first that it is more difficult to set up for the user but most important is that the credit companies and big banks do not really want it to work. With the current CC system when there is fraud, the merchant has to pay (and the consumer up to a small amount). Banks will always get their money no matter what, so they really don't have an incentive to push for the adaptation of more advanced protocol
Yes but through WAP/iMode the devices will be online all the time so the transaction will be like using a browser. So what the previous posters wrote about security and the time transaction is made will be valid.
Paypal loses money right now to build market share by paying $5 per sign-up and another $5 per referral.
Now suppose CitiBank decides they want to play. They set up a system along similar lines, but pay $20 per sign-up, %10 per referral, and $50 for every former PayPal customer that switches. Paypal can't afford to piss money all over the internet that fast, but Citibank can... plus they have name recognition and an IRL customer base that Paypal lacks.
It's like if Barnes and Noble had several hundred billion dollars lying around when they decided to take on Amazon. It would be over in no time flat.
Now, suppose you are a blood-sucking CEO of a major international bank, and you arrive at the conclusion that Paypal is not only going to make money, but will slowly migrate into the banking business... What would you do? Let it happen, or pull a Microsoft? Thought so.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Paypal fulfills the first requirement. You do not need a credit card to use Paypal. Instead, you can add funds to your Paypal account by sending them a check. However, you don't get the $5 sign-up bonus unless you register one of your credit cards with them.
Also, Paypal is as anonymous as your e-mail account, as long as you don't link it to a credit card or bank account.
I really think it is a little too early to be declareing a winner to a war that has hardly begun. Don't forget that Micropayment is not a really huge item as of yet... and don't think that other payment (Both c2b and b2b) options won't fight for a piece of this market. Companies like Verisign, etc. Even though PayPal is here and now, the reality is that that can change in a matter of weeks (or days).
Online payment options (not just for micropayment) have a long way to go before the "Defacto Standard" is set.
I am become Troll, destroyer of threads
Daan
like MCI World Com who wouldn't load a calling card with 10$ charged to my Swiss credit card.
In Australia some gung-how cowboy phone company can do that without pain and repeatedly.
AT&T can automatically route a call by punching in your European (!) CC number. I assume that they can't verify it on-line but they rather lose 10$ then seriously piss off a customer.
Oh, and piss off customer, that's precisely what they did. I manage a small but growing company. We will have growing network and telecommunications needs in years to come. MCI is heavily trying to get its feet into the European market.
Guess what I tell a sales representative of a billion $ company trying to sell crucial services when they can't even verify a 10$ transaction on a valid credit card...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
W9x:Thanks for the make-work project Bill.
I first heard about PayPal when someone who like my website offered to send me a few dollars if I had a PayPal account. So I signed up and they sent me money! (They actually sent me $10, which made me really feel good.) I put up a link to PayPal on my site, but it hasn't generated any referrals yet. So far no one else has tipped me either. :(
What PayPal should do next is set up some kind of interface for nonprofit organizations. So, let's say you go to the website of a non-profit organization and you send them money via PayPal. PayPal should be able to keep track of all the donations that you have made and generate reports that indicate that it went to a non-profit organization and have their little number thingy. That way, it would increase people's ability to easily support charity.
Randy.Flood@RHCE2B.COM
I think it is worthwhile to check out W3C'S Micropayments Overview. They have recently issued a working draft on Common Markup for Micropayment per-fee-links for last call review.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Uh, stupid, I do online banking myself. I understand the principle. It's too bad you didn't understand the point of my post.
You sound like a very boring person.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
I was not rude. I was astounded by the Fin's needless posturing. Nationalistic pissing contests bore me.
I'm not particularly interested in who has superior banking. I've never been one to want for lack of need. I'm more interested in the thought processes that go on in one's head to come up with such flagrantly false statements.
That's all.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
And where was it implied that they were? You were reading what you wanted to into his words.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I've found that people who place an exaggerated sense of pride in belonging to the "digerati", do so for a couple of reasons:
1) To attain a sense of self worth
2) To compensate for feelings of inadequacy in the non-digital sphere
Digital hubris and Nationalism are abhorent to me. I see too much of it here in Slashdot. The original poster's ludicrous assertion smacked of both and I spoke about it. Sue me.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
In many ways I view this as a non-issue. Sure, each country might have to have a solution tailored to local conditions, where possible, but once you do have a local solution than intercountry transfers become transparent. That's where X.com being a bank comes in handy (monetary conversion).
Ironically, Canada will probably be one of the easiest countries to tie in. Close relations with the US (and well-integrated banking concerns) will make it easy, I believe. I know they use credit cards up north! =)
/// Not a super-genius . . . yet. ///
Toss in one of those patented computer to computer foreign currency transaction (muck like AmEx, Visa, and MasterCard does) and voila, you have a world wide payment system and I don't even have to know how many dollars go into a rupie or vice versa.
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
No. I'm with the first poster on this. I understand their limit and that they think this will reduce their risk, but this method of verifying identity seems invasive. Getting a "chump" bank account may expose you to early closure fees or inactivity fees as well. Most banks don't appreciate being used in this way. And if PayPal goofs and sends a debit to your "chump" account, once you've let the balance slide you may incur overdraft fees, which may or may not affect your financial records whether PayPal makes you whole on the deal or not.
I do not have a signature
But people don't like to use credit cards for small amounts of money. When PayPal finally does get into Canada, we'll be on it like fat kids on a smartie.
----- Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas. --Army of Darkness
I recently signed on with PayPal so I can use it instead of a banner ad on a web page I run. [shameless plug]http://www.urateit.com/[/shameless plug].
I don't get enough traffic for my site to generate any real revenue from banner ads. (In fact, the ads up there now are from LinkExchange which doesn't drive traffic to my site or give me money.) I figured if just a few people think my web service is worth it, they might be inclined to throw a few bucks my way which would help me recoup the cash I pay out of pocket to run the site. I'm not looking to become an "Internet Millionaire" like this, just looking to break even. (Ok, maybe a little better than breaking even.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Interesting tought, but well... I live in a country where tipping is not needed (you know, on the bill it states service included etc...) I do tip tough, for two reasons: :-)
a) when a waiter/cleaner/whatever did a very good job I want to show him/her my appreciation. Money does that better than a smile
b) I hate walking around with tons of coins in my pockets, so I usually round up whem it is reasonable to do so. (no, I'm *not* rich..I just like it easy)
Oh, and if you think a) and b) do not fit together...If I tip you just coins, you fall in category b)...otherwhise you're in b)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
That's right, checks are very rare in Finland (and everywhere in Northern Europe). Sometimes they are used to give somebody money as a present. But really nobody uses them in their daily lives, they are way too cumbersome.
The situation is very similar as with pagers:
they too are VERY popular in the US, but nobody (except doctors) uses them here in Finland. In fact, the pager network is about to get discontinued soon in this country.
I guess what you mean is that not everybody uses online banking in Finland.
That's right. But they don't use checks either. They either pay they bills with an ATM machine (which really is a form of online banking, too), fysically in a bank (directly from their account with no checks involved), using a "direct billing" system, which allows billers to charge customer's account directly, or by putting the bill in an envelope, dropping it in a sort-of "mailbox" in front of the bank, and letting the bank take care of it from there.
Janne
WAP-banking has been available for almost a year now here in Finland.. :)
- Janne
Credit cards are "rare" in Finland because they are hard to get. You must have a good job before you can apply for a credit card. Teenagers, students etc. are mostly out of the question.
:)
Of course, one can do perfectly well without a credit card in Finland.
It just pisses me off that I can't order stuff across the Atlantic..
Direct debit cards basically work just like credit cards, they just don't give you any credit, of course..
"Smart cards" (cards with a microchip) are just about to get common. One can "upload" money (up to about $350) in these cards from an ATM, and use them just like cash for small purchases.
- Janne
I've registered shareware using PayPal. I think it's a great idea. It's simpler than check or money order and safer than giving out your credit card number to a small publisher.
But non-Americans are left out. Bummer. I've found some nice stuff overseas.
Viv
-----------
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
============================
Please wait, calculating
The company I work for has just put out a press release that shows it is about to be developed for the European and Japanese Mobile Phone Market. Now if that gets going then there really will be a micropayments system of interest.
Only place around here (Pacific Northwest) that even has full service anymore is Oregon, where it's compulsory. There, I don't tip as a means of protest. This is America, goddammit! A man should be able to stand on his own two feet and pump his own damn gas, for christ's sake.
No relation to Happy Monkey
PayPal is not meant to be a trusted source. If you want to make sure you don't get screwed paying an untrusted 3rd party, you don't use PayPal. Use something like i-escrow instead!
Duh!
-thomas
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
"And like that
I have never done CC transactions myself, so I don't know the fees; but I've heard two bits of info over the years.
1) CC co's charge the store ~1%-3% per purchase for their services.
2) My bike-guy runs a small business; he told me he pays a flat fee for the day for all CC transactions, so if he has just one, he'd prefer to have a lot through the day.
3) I routinely pay bills ~$10 at the grocery store with a credit card.
None of this means that $1 transactions.
-----
D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
Excellent! I'm working on a movie review site as a hobby. My concern was that I might hit a middle ground where I've got enough visitors to make it active and interesting, but not enough that I could use ads to cover hosting costs. I'd thought about asking for donations if that happens, but didn't think it work well. But you just told me how to make do it quickly and simply.
Thanks.
-----
D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
Hmm... interesting. I can't think of any reason I'd want to make micropayments to someone in Europe. I suppose if I wanted to subscribe to use a travel agency database, and they charged per-page or something.
I agree that it's an interesting notion, but it seems like an interim solution, until currency exchange is cheap/easy enough for -payments. Credit cards already to automatic currency exchange when used in foreign nations. There is the transaction cost as others have pointed out, but it seems a bellwhether of things to come.
I guess it's a personal issue. Gold is pretty, and I like it in jewelry, and I like it as a piece of a diversified portfolio, but I don't like it as a major investment and it doesn't seem like a good minor currency for for most purposes.
Of course, I didn't see any use for -payments either, but PayPal may soon be rich because they did.
-----
D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
> CAPITALISM.
i dunno, man, sounds pretty shallow when the only way to to show gratitude is with money.
So what else of value do you have to offer?
Why do I think this will be considered trolling...
M.G.
Excessive forking causes un-wanted children.
All this argument about the economic viability of keeping QUALITY musicians active is nonesense. Quality musicians in my experience are people who are driven to write and perform because they have something to say, not for the money. Some of the best musicians ever have lived lives of poverty. (same for writers, painters, sculpters, poets, photographers, cinematographers). What does change is the size of the audience and now the audience's ability to show their appreciation directly to the musician. The music industry is a pox on creativity and variety. They have their demographic studies and select (or create) musical acts to match them. this results in less and less variation in musical style. The tipping model opens the floodgates to musicians (and writers, graphic artists, etc) of every conceivable style, who can get paid directly based on who likes what instead of having to break into the Music Business. So if you're in it for the money. Good luck to you. If you have musical ideas you want people to hear, the internet is your best bet to be heard by as many people as possible. Release us, oh PayPal, from the bonds of the art industries into the holy land of free expression. The industry has nothing to do with quality music. Quality is solely dependent on on creativity and taste.
KolinH
http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/2000 0826/index_wb0192.html
Apparently America is king of the hill when it comes to tipping.
"In America, the custom has become institutionalised... In Europe, tipping is less common...In many Asian countries, tipping has never really caught on at all."
But this is the real gem:
"According to Michael Lynn, the Cornell paper's co-author, countries in which people are more extrovert, sociable or <b>neurotic</b> tend to tip more."
repeat: America is #1...(sigh)
White pants and shirt, tie and shined shoes, too.
"..don't you eat that yellow snow."
doofus.
"..don't you eat that yellow snow."
PayPal is still not set up to handle these kinds of micropayments. PayPayl is a *payment* system, yes, but I don't think it should be considered a micropayment system.
And as has been said, 95% of the world's population cannot get a PayPal account, so it is by no means the Final Solution.
--
www.kitchengeek.com -- Nosh for
Before the first commercial release of Doom, they were all as rich as Croesus.
Tipping works.
--
www.kitchengeek.com -- Nosh for
I would recommend switching credit cards then. My Citibank visa guarentees limited liability up to 50 bucks online and physically.
Sig it.
So do most banks/credit card companies/ and stock traders that have online services. Not one of them has been hit (if memory serves me correct). Most banks are also insured against online fraud so if somebody nails your account you are only responsible for a certain amount of money (Citibank I believe is like $50). If you get hard then THEY have to suck it up and deal, and I don't think that muli-million/billion dollar companies will idley sit by and watch themselves lose money!
Release the hounds (ie. PI's, FBI, MPAA...oops how did that last one sneak in there?)!!!
Sig it.
SnakeStu, that is an incredible idea. I use to be a fairly good graphic artist and created quite a few .3ds files in my time. It took me a lot of time and effort to put that up and reward of people telling me of their "coolness" was good enough for me. Your idea of reward is pretty cool indeed.
One thing though, what stops people from being frauded out of a buck or two? I mean you could pull a Barnum and Balley gallery of freaks on your webpage and charge a buck entrance. On the other side you could just have crappy pictures that you just found on other websites like the National Intruder or such dirt magazines. What is going to stop these type of rogue websites from appearing? You could also bypass any laws by putting a disclaimer right before you Paypal your entrance, by simply saying "No refunds". "O brave new world!" I'd be curious to hear other people's ideas on this, because basically if you got screwed from someone A.) The Law would turn you away and B.) Paypal would probably wash its hands of you!
Sig it.
It seems you've forgotten the First Rule of Acquisition
First, nothing begins if not opening
I have paid for some shareware programs from time to time. Fx. I found a webcam program that did all that I was looking for and the price was only $25. So I saved days of work and had no problem with paying $25 for that. If the price was $250, I'd had to think a lot more before pulling out my credit card.
But I don't believe that it will work if people don't have to pay to get what they want. I think the idea must be that it should be so cheap that it's not worth your time trying to get it for free.
With music, if you could buy and download it cheap from a faster server where you could find everything you were looking for, would it be worth having to search the internet for it(lets assume Naspter isn't there).
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This mentality is exactly what was adressed in Fanlander's post -
USA is, to most of its inhabitants, self-sufficient. And this majority does not know, nor care about that some things could be completely different somewehere else.
I have yet to see a check or hear about one received personally from anyone i know, and i am connected with the finance industry.
Another thing that seems - creadits at all are widely used in the USA, credit cards, important credit history and stuff like that coming from credits. Come on, why would one like to borrow money at enormous rates, except to buy a house or a car on loan?
And, of course, CC fraud is a must-have if you desire a system where your card's number is enough for a transaction to happen.
Rather, here in Latvia, debit cards are popular, being used almost everywhere the same way as, i think, in USA CC's are. One can get a debit card, a bank account and internet access to do transactions for free in a half an hour.
I can transfer money and pay my bills online. And I can buy stuff online, and have my card verified by the courier with a portable reader when I receive it.
And I still fail to see any advantages of the USA way. Prove me wrong. I dare you.
I may disagree with your opinion, but I will defend to death your right to speak it.
The same applies for PayPal. You must have a US ADDRESS to sign up. You can use ANY bank account that has a routing number. The 18 rule sortof-applies, considering that to hold a bank account, you must be cosigned with an adult or be over 18. I'm 14, and PayPal does the job for me.
I would like to see sites like CDNow.com and other online stores support PayPal. Even with all this "security" the Internet has I still cringe when I have to enter my CC number on every site I want to buy something from. I worry the some CDUniverse CC heist will happen again.
Not to say that it isn't possible for PayPal to get hit, but I'm willing to bet they have a better security conscience than most online merchants.
B.T.W. I used to work for an online merchant, CC numbers were not handled with any degree of security.
Not so. Sure people will be used to getting music for free. But how long will some good quality musicians continue to play without compensation? I'm not sure of the answer to that question, but its become clear to me, that if you really like an artists enough to see him/her continue to produce high qulaity music, woudln't you want to tip them as much as you would a street performer? Over time, I can see a bazaar type musical internet-wide extravaganza of voluntary tipping by people who really want to hear more of what they really want to hear.
www.enthea.org
Sure, I own some CD's that I love so much I would have paid $50 for them. A tip system would be great to show my gratitude to the artist. And as the poster wrote, there are some personal websites that had me ROTFLMAO or greatly influenced me as a web developer and designer. I would love to send them $5 and say "Thanks! Have a beer on me."
That said, I wonder how long it will go on before things we used to do for pleasure and personal edification are motivated by the prospect of being micropaid for it. Art by the amateur has always been done for the love of producing art - it freaks me out a bit to think that amateur art may now be done for micropayments. Obviously, that's not the sole reason it's done but it could certainly be a motivator now. As an example, most /.ers
participate because they enjoy participating but, be honest now, karma is definately a motivator, right? And what
is karma? An abstract point system for quality posts - it doesn't really do anything but make you feel good. Now
imagine if karma were micropayments - even more incentive right?
I guess I'm just wondering if micropayments will devalue the intrinsic good of things like art. I pull off and help someone change their flat tire or return a lost wallet to contribute good to the world, not b/c I'm hoping for compensation. A "Thanks a lot" is the only compensation I want. And while this may be extreme, it's possible these things could be motivated by the micropayment.
"Hey, nice shoes!" "Thanks, here's a $1 micropayment!"
I realize that is a silly example but it helps to illustrate the possible trend towards money being the sole motivator and compensator for everything. I remember reading an article a while back about sites like Epinions and "expert" sites. They explored why people would devote large amounts of time to writing reviews and answering questions for complete strangers. The short answer was "egoboo" or ego boosts that came from being positively rated as a reviewer. But it made me proud that these sites went counter to the idea of the net being a commercial medium, like the corps view it. I was proud to be involved with a medium that is about free exchange of information and assistance with the motivation being the virtue of helping someone else out without compensation. I just wonder if micropayments for everything will threaten that notion.
Sorry to play devil's advocate but I have only read about how wonderful a micropayment system will be in light of the whole Napster fiasco. I've just been waiting for the other shoe to drop...
I'll be your brown eyed girl.
At the Burger King down the street, there are always long lines. I've thought about implementing self-serve order terminals that you can beam your cash to with your Palm. Anyone know of anywhere that uses a system like that?
PayPal lets you deposit by check or money order (I think.) Also, they have to know who you are. What if somebody is selling 7 items for $6 apiece and only receives $36?
I would use it, except for the service charge. Heck, a bank pays you interest to keep your money there, I would expect such a system to at least be free. (After all, where are they going to put my money order? In a bank!) Actually, I was thinking earlier this year about how to set up such a system--not only anonymous, but one in which you could make a digital withdrawal that you could simply email to someone, who could then deposit it in their digital account. This is different than paypal. With paypal, you get an email from paypal informing you of money waiting for you. With digital cash, you get an email from me that contains money. I even envision a system of several digital cash standards--all anonymous and private--each native to one or more digital "banks," but where the banks actually support deposits of any of the formats. This would allow continuous advancements in digital cash technology. Of course, ideally none of those banks would be directly associated with traditional bank institutions. I've been thinking that a group of volunteers could set up a site (digitalcash.org? - probably already exists), work out all the workflow bugs, rent a PO Box, and then just see if it gets used.
--When you buy proprietary software, you don't get better software. What you get is the right to complain about it.
There is no such thing as a viable non-enforceable payment plan.
I guess that's why there aren't any buskers in London :-)
DigiCash was founded in 1990 by cryptologist David Chaum (site apparently not updated in recent years...) who owned the two (three?) major patents covering completely anonymized digital cash. To my knowledge it still isn't certain whether it's possible to create a truly anonymous digital money scheme without violating these patents.
Like you said, David is a great mathematician, and an even greater evangelist/idealist (i once attended a lecture of his on cryptology protocols which he turned into a sort of political rally). But he wasn't an unqualified succes as a bussinessman (ahem). Due to various mismanagement problems Digicash went broke in 1998. About a year ago, all Digicash IP (including the patents, source code and the url) was bought out of the brankcupty by startup eCash Technologies inc., located in Seattle.
Though superficially somewhat similar to something like PayPal, this system, should it become viable, will have a far wider impact. Truly anonymous digital cash with a high solvability is something that will strike fear into the heart of every government economist on the planet. Should it ever become implemented, it will change the nature of the internet, and society itself won't escaped unharmed either.
That being said, they don't appear to have made much progress yet in securing deals with major financial institutions, which will probably be a neccesity to make it a success.
Go here for a good list of ecash related links.
This might explain why they have only targeted the US. In Canada we have some very specific rules about what you can do to a consumer's credit card, etc. and how the consumer can react (e.g., there's a ~2 day grace period on all transactions before which you can cancel without penalty if you haven't received the goods). I don't know about the laws in Finland but I'm pretty sure they're not a carbon-copy of the American system. Until PayPal hits critical mass in the US (estimated at 10 million users) and can afford to take risks in foreign markets they'll probably stay home. They already have 400 employees... how many would they have to add to expand outside of North America? -Duke
I have no problem with needing some kind of verification but I am not going to give them my bank account number (and implicit permission to EFT funds from it at any time "if I approve it.") As of today PayPal has become useless to me forevermoe as I have reached my $500 spending limit, which can ONLY be lifted if I supply my bank account number.
about the last place I'd trust for online transactions is a traditional bank with an aging, conservative board of fatcats who think Msft & AOL are state of the art and have to hire some tortured soul of a hack to implement their stodgy idea of what online financial services should be. PayPal sure speeds up my eBay addiction :))
Ch-Chuck on remote assignment
A database of 10 million users and their credit card numbers, bank account numbers, etc. all in one place. Sounds like a juicy target for hackers. Credit cards may offer some degree of protection but how responsive would your bank be if you told them that you posted your checking account number on the Internet and someone used it to empty out your account.
Come on, if this sort of thing is going to work, then surely the Slashdot crew wouldn't mind taking the first step?
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$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Anyone know?
That was one of the coolest damned things I've seen in a long time - beaming cash between each other's Palmpilots/Visors, and then cashing in on the next Hotsync. Honestly, that was so godamned cool I can hardly even stand it that they cancelled it - we *NEED* more services like this in this world.
Anyone got any details why they cancelled it exactly? The first thing that comes to mind is some sort of legal issues with regards to banking regulations of some variety, or maybe it just wasn't being used.
With all the new Palms on the market now, and the growth of that market going the way it is, Paypal should really bring Palm/Payments back...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Perhaps money should either be a reward for nothing, or for everything. Anything in the middle, and the decisions people make in their life will be guided by money. If, however, you create something artistically and no matter what the medium is you get paid, then money has not influenced your decision to create what it is you are going to create.
As someone who is very pressed for time and needs to stay focused, it would be good to throw away all the money making activities and work on the art that I would love to spend all my time on. This is not possible as it doesn't make me any money, currently.
"From what I've read a large part of the reason many credit-card accepting sites won't take customers outside the U.S. is the enormous rate of fraud they experience when dealing with non-US customers. Fraud per se wouldn't be so bad if some of these countries had law enforcement and judicial systems that were, to put it bluntly, honest and effective. "
Wrong! It's nothing to do with law enforcement in those countries. Try blaming the credit card pseudo-monopoly/cartel of Visa, MasterCard, etc. Merchants always foot the bill when a CC charge is questioned. The CC companies have not implemented a consist way to verify a credit card, and thus the merchants cannot check up on CCs. The US uses a system different to elsewhere. I moved to Canada, but I often cannot use my US CCs to buy online from the States. The reason is I have an international address and the US computer systems cannot cope with that. In addition to this, international treaties would be required so that fraud commited in the US (and vice-versa) can be prosecuted overseas.
"Couple this with the clusterfsck that comprises the banking and currency transaction laws and bureaucracies of many non-US countries and you have some serious barriers to entry. Some of this can be blamed on currency speculators who have in the past used electronic means to clobber currencies which caused the affected countries to enact laws which hinder EFT. "
This is just crap too. What the hell has the exchange rate, etc got to do with it? I recently did a large cash advance on my British credit card. The amount was over $7,000, so the local bank could not guarantee me the exchange rate (fluctuations would have cost them a significant amount)... instead I had to agree that I would accept the exchange rate at the time the transaction completed, a few days later. Fine. I understood it could cost me more, but that just goes with the territory.
"Instead of blaming everyone for being anti-{your country here} instead ask yourself what your country could do to make their economy more accessable so the paypals of the world CAN set up shop in your country. "
As far as Western countries go, everything is pretty accessible. Personally, if I were an overseas customer, I wouldn't want to do business with a US company such as Paypal as the US is rather lacking when it comes to privacy legislation.
Huh? I certainly don't behave any differently in a restaurant to anyone else. I'm polite to the waiters, and expect the same in return. At the end of the evening, I'll decide whether a tip is justified or not. If you haven't been refilling my drinks, the chances are I'll decide not. If you want to lose your tip through such behaviour, there's little I can do to stop you...
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
No! Paying them is their employer's responsibility, not mine. No one is forcing them to do the job. If they don't like the salary, they should find a better paid job. I'll tip if they've given good service, but 15% is way over the top. In fact, the tip shouldn't be related to the value of the meal at all. The waiter hasn't given me better service because I ordered the £50 lobster instead of the £5 burger. At the end of the day, though, it probably just comes down to cultural differences. In the US, you're seen as rude if you don't tip (hell, there's even people in this thread that tip pizza deliveries!). Here in the UK, though, I see it as rude to expect a tip unless they've done something to warrant one.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
I see this as a good thing for amateur artists. It allows unambigous proof that somebody appreciated your work. The value of this positive feedback is probably more than the monetary value of the micropayments.
If you take a look at the site, they only offer the service to people living in the USA. Sounds like it has a really good chance of becoming the de facto standard for micropayments over the net. Right.
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Niklas Nordebo | nino at sonox.com | +46-708-405095
What's your experience been like with it (I assume you use it)?
I'm somewhat interested in messing with e-gold, but to me (reading their site) it looks like you'd eventually get bled to death by storage fees for the metal (your balance slowly goes down as a result), and you also get charged for exchanging currency both to and from e-gold...
Are the fees really so small in practice that this doesn't matter?
DNA just wants to be free...
(Remotely associated with net micropayments)
Anyone got any good stories about Internet Banking?
I'm in love with my bank, [Citizen's Bank of Canada]. As long as I keep more than $1K in the account, it's free. *FREE*. No service charges on the account. No transaction fees. *No VISA fees*. *No ATM or DirectPay fees*. And they pay higher interest rates than the big banks.
And every time I use my VISA, ten cents goes to charity. And we bank members get to vote on the charities every year.
Works for me!
My sister-in-law banks with "President's Choice," a big-box grocery/superstore chain in Canada. It pays higher interest, but doesn't do the charity thing. She gets discounts on her groceries... and suffers with a smile the taunts and teases about her grovery bank.
Anyone have experiences to share? Is there anything like this in the USA? Someone from Finland was talking about their country being over 50% e-banking...
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Only one area.
You see, PayPal is not credit card dependent. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from setting up an account without a credit card. If you want to transfer money into an account without a credit card, you can do an electronic funds transfer from a bank account or with a personal check.
Steven E. Ehrbar
The US spends billions every year prosecuting credit card fraud. Are you surprised that other countries are unwilling or unable to dump this kind of money into doing the credit card companies' work? Because the US takes care of fraud for credit card companies, they have no incentive to fix their inherently flawed system.
Credit cards are a bad deal. Period. I won't consider the world to have truly evolved electronic money until the current credit card system isn't involved, or it is massively restructured (and involves cryptographic security). Another requirement isn't that you don't have to "pay" for money. PayPal doesn't qualify because of it's fees (business accounts).
--Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
Bear in mind, that at the moment, the uses of Paypal money are somewhat limited. So there is almost nothing to be gained by leaving cash in the account. It's primary use at this time, is a pay on demand system. At least that's how I use it. But going back to the network effects, as more people adopt the system, there will be more advantage to keeping a balance ready there. If you can use it for more than the occasional auction payment you will be more disposed to keeping float handy.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
That's $12 per person, where they are leaving the money there instead of transferring it back to a checking account. I'm suprised that it's that high, based on my experience with it.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if I can get money in or out of the system, I be happy just to have an account to interact with other Pay-Pay users.
Take for example waiters, they're paid much less than minumum wage. I worked as a waiter and made about $2.10/hr in regular wages. Management knows that you'll get tips and that's why they can get away paying so little. Waiters pay income tax on tips even when they don't actually get them, the government assumes you get a certain amount from tips for every hour you work and they tax you on that. This is why tipping is necessary (with an exception for very bad service, in which case I don't tip much either) and why if you don't tip you won't get good service next time.
The problem is that waiters make typically eighty percent or more of their income from tips. If nobody tipped, all the waiters would quit and the price of the meal would have to be raised to pay the waiters properly. With meal prices 20 percent higher, you'd end up "tipping" for good *and* bad service since there'd be no longer be an incentive for good service. Sure, you could just not go out to eat anymore, but you do like to do that right? That's why you do it now?
Yes, we should all remember that the easiest way to spot the pioneers is that they're the ones face down on the ground with arrows in their backs...When was the last time that the creator of a given technology or techniqe was the actual one to dominate because of it? I don't know.
Odds are IE6 and/or MSN will incorporate an online bill paying scheme identical to paypals, and since it will be installed on 60+ million PC's within a year, Microsoft will win out again.
Paypal is not a micropayment system. Micropayments are by definition -very- small (ie: much smaller than a penny)
Look at Mojo Nation for a micropayment system. (and a distributed data haven system based upon it!)
Actually, there's an easy option. Open an X.com bank account (and, at least a short while ago, get $20 free), and give that number to pay-pal. They have an account, albiet one I don't use, and I have no spending limit. Works out well for me.
It's called X.Com, the Internet bank. They offer a high interest checking account, with free debit card, fifty printed checks to start you out, and allow deposits by EFT or good old-fashioned snailmail. They also allow you to email people money, though the people must have or get an X account (or request them to mail a check) to use it.
Getting to it is a bit confusing, though--you have to go to X.Com-PayPal's homepage then click on the little X Finance link below the login box, then click on the "Where's X Finance?" link at the top of the page.
Enjoy!
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Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
And I forgot to mention, they don't charge you for using ATMs, and refund up to $6/mo of other banks' ATM charges.
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Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
By the way, aside from the charge-backs, PayPal customers now have insurance against unauthorized withdrawals.
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send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
Regarding the first point, you don't need to tie your PayPal account to a credit card, you can tie it directly to your bank account.
What you don't seem to understand is that you CAN get it back. See that "Withdraw Funds" button? Click it. You can take any money in your account right out again. Once you've given money from your PayPal account _TO_ someone, that's a different story, but it seems to me you're just trying to stir up confusion and an outroar.
I've been using PayPal for well over 6 months now, and processed a few thousand dollars of incoming cash with them, without the slightest of a problem. They know what they're doing, they've got tons of checks and balances in place, and they don't make a habit of screwing people over.
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Tim Wilde
Gimme 42 daemons!
where's thanks.php?
:-) but I'll send you a thank-you email!!
In my head right now.
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
Why would anybody create such a system in the first place? You aren't giving them any way to make a profit, so why go through the effort....
Sure I am. If the system caught on, just think of all the money they could make collecting interest from or re-investing people's still-unspent digital cash. The more money you have access to, the more money you can make with it. Providing a service in exchange for access to people's money is a big part of how most banks, investment companies, etc. stay in business.
They could certainly do this. Imagine a system where you just call up Visa and get a micropayment ID number associated with your card. Then, put a link on your web page to allow users to make a transfer directly from their card to your micropayment ID.
It would be easy for them to implement and, if handled in a non-stupid way, could totally dominate. Or, so I imagine.
Greg
Yeah, but there is a certain network economy to the whole thing. If Visa or Mastercard starts up the same thing now (or Citibank or whoever), who wants to join one of those things in the beginning when they have 100 users and those are the only people you can trade $$$ with?
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Why would anybody create such a system in the first place? You aren't giving them any way to make a profit, so why go through the effort....
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Exactly, what you are describing is called a bank. There are tons of them. There is no way you could both a) comply with banking law in the US and b) mantain the required anonymity you desire under the system.
Maybe if someone wants to open First National Bank of Sealand or something...
Then again, I hate cash... I hate having to carry it around... you can lose it, its (literally) dirty, and if you give it to someone you have no recourse if they don't perform or your product is defective. Having the same thing in digital form only seems to solve the cleanliness problem as far as I can see. Unless you are some huge privacy freak and that's important to you... but if that's the case, are you really going to trust First National Bank of Sealand or whatever?
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
There's another reason why tipping IRL is successful: He's standing right there. You step out of your taxi, and you're looking the guy in the face as he reads off the meter, and you feel obligated to give him a tip, probably mostly because he's looking at you. I mean, since everyone's faceless online, you don't have to look the guy in the eye -- and that's where you may not feel obligated to tip..
The main reason PayPal has become so widespread is eBay. And that is because PayPal has, in eBay sellers, and army of people trying to get other people to use PayPal. After all, if I as a seller have a buyer who uses PayPal, I can get my money instantly, and the buyer gets thier stuff shipped right away. As a seller on eBay I put a note into every end of auction notice I put out that mentions I prefer PayPal and how easy it is to use. Many auctions mention taking PayPal explicitly in the limited auction description space, and generally it's a good idea because people are willing to pay more (sometimes a LOT more) for something they can pay with PayPal (and therefore, I'm assuming, a credit card).
PayPal is also easy to get money out of. After you've collected money for a while, you can have a check cut but you can also have the money directly deposted into a bank account. The speed of doing that will, I'm sure, convince all but the most paranoid of customers to fill out bank account information.
They now have a pretty good setup for letting anyone handle on-line credit card payments. Zounds! They are also poised to take over micro-eCommerce. That system has fees of course, but fairly small ones that seem pretty reasonable.
The way they seem to be going to try and earn a bit more is to have business level accounts that have small percentage fees but more features. The web-payment is but one facet of that.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Provide 1600x1200 images.
Ask for $0.50, not $5... A whole used book is much less than $5, a casual reader is pretty unlikley to give you $5 but might just fork over $.50 (or even $.10).
Images on the web are pretty easy to aquire in general, if you provide any extra value like 1600x1200 images (which are harder to find) people are more likley to give you something for that.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Good: I used PayPal to pay the good folks at dyndns.org for my hostname.
Bad: cancelling the Palm service (the only other time I used it).
Bad: no international customers. I am owed money by a guy in England. I will let you know when I cave in and have him send me a cheque, because that will be the day before PayPal start their overseas service.
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E_NOSIG
Likewise, if you're wondering why you can't send money to someone in Colombia with PayPal, it's not because X.com is filled with navel-gazing Americans who couldn't give a whoop for the rest of the world, but because there are serious legal restrictions on international cash transfers, and X.com will need to think long and hard about what kinds of services they can offer without running afoul of these restrictions.
(* While I'm sure I will get blasted for saying so, the simple truth is that nothing -- nothing -- roots out organized crime like mandatory reporting of large cash transactions.For those who'd rather deal with organized crime than with the government, there are a number of countries in Africa and Latin America that are currently trying that particular experiment.)
Mass Market Busking: The Inevitable Economics of Software
Basically, if you give money away for anything you like, people will realize this and start trying to make stuff you like. If you don't give out money, nobody will care what you do or don't like. Being generous makes you relevant to the busking industry, much like being gullible makes you relevant to the advertising industry (and think how much better TV would be if it wasn't targeted at people dumb enough to be influenced by advertising, but rather targeted at people bright enough to understand why they should do things that don't have an immediate personal payoff like donating and voting).
It includes a bit on why shareware doesn't work. Basically, shareware screws things up by trying to set a price, and usually way too high (presumably with the thought "I have to set some price, and I know most people won't pay, so I'll have to set it high enough that the few who do pay will make it worth my while."). The fact that making small payments over the internet only recently became possible, and still isn't well-understood by the general public, probably also had something to do with it. I mean, how far are you going to go out of your way to send $20 to some guy who wrote one cheesy utility you use?
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Wouldn't it be great if you could have one distributed system for transferring any fungible commodity?
Think of buying stuff with gallons of gasoline, standard bricks, or milligrams of antimatter (eventually).
I don't think we can hang on to any one commodity as money forever. Eventually we'll mine gold out of asteroids and make children's toys, statues, and novelty houses out it. We'll have to keep switching to whatever is valuable. (and, no, levitating legal tender bank notes aren't good long-term money by themselves; they're only as good as their government's economic health)
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I agree with your general assessment, except that you have overlooked two crucial details: the ability to make micropayments instantly (I only support e-gold because it the only working international micropayment system), and the advantages for taking payment.
You can't send small amounts (pennies, nickels, dimes) by credit card. There are minimum credit card charges, somewhere around $0.50, so small payments are mostly transfer fee, and just aren't worth doing. A realistic minimum for cc payment is about $3, and that's really pushing it.
As for the other half, anyone can be taking e-gold payment as soon as they get an account, which only takes a few minutes. Perhaps most importantly, there are no chargebacks, and no possibility of a payment dispute. For good or for ill, once a payment is made, it is done.
I'd hate to take credit cards for payment over the internet. As the merchant, you are basically the one taking all the risk. If something goes wrong, it comes out of your pocket. Also, there are a lot of rules in the merchant account agreement that aren't directly related to taking cc payment. For example, you can't charge extra for a cc purchase than a cash purchase: you have to hide that $0.50 or whatever it costs per transaction in your price, so your prices have to go up across the board.
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It's worse than that. It used to be that you tipped for excellent service, and a decent tip was around 10%. Now crummy waiters act as if they're entitled to 15% gratuity. You dropped a $30 meal on my table, disappeared for 30 minutes as I choked on a dry steak without access to water, and now you come to me wanting me to pay you $5 for the pleasure of your non-service?
If your employer isn't paying you enough, quit. I didn't hire you and I'm not going to pay your salary. If a 15% tip is required, it should be printed on the damn menu.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
One better than that.
I was just in my local supermarket, getting the usual qunatity of caffenated drinks. The person in front of me was purchasing a pair of onions.
That's a total cost of 15 pence (About 25 cents).
He paid by Switch. Switch is a form of electronic fund transfer (A debit card).
No cash. No cheque. No delay. Who needs PayPal?
I haven't written a cheque. Actually, I take that back, I wrote one, once. 5 years ago. Switch rocks. Largely.
No, it's not a smart card. It's a conventional magnetic card.
It contains your bank details, and when it's used, the computer in the supermarket contacts the computer in the bank, and the money is transferred from one account to the other.
No 'cash' is stored on the card.
My point was that the overhead in direct electronic funds transfer is now so low, you can use it for any amount.
I know I do.
3. International Use. You must be a resident of the United States to use the Service. International accounts will be available soon.
How Soon?
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
I heard a few years ago the Microsoft was scheming on a way to get a few millicents on each transaction on the Internet. (There was a joke going around at the time that dollar bills would be replaced by Bill Dollars.)
I predict that either M$FT will buy PayPal, or they will announce a competing system within a few weeks, introduce Version 1.0 in about 9 months, and actually get something that sort of works within 5 years.
P.S. You can use PayPal at BadKittyCam.
From Subject
... ad nauseam ...
joe@abc.comPaypal only in US
qwerty@asdf.netPayPal not in Canada
null@example.comPayPal - What about ROTW?
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You can transfer money to and from your online account using your credit card or bank account. Your credit card must have a U.S. billing address, and you must be over 18 years of age. Transaction limits may apply. Useless for us NON americans.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
BTW, AOLiza is great!
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Ah, but if you have an account with a US bank you can. I've done business with canadians via PayPal.
The setup screen expects you/requires you to enter an address in the united states - I don't know how entering a false address would effect the legality of an account with them, however.
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-=DaveHowe=-
I'm not really shure, but I think that they would just fuck themselves over by recharging you when you reversed the charges. Specifically, the credit card company will just keep charging _them_ $20 per charge back which will fuck them over really quickly if they keep recharging you and you keep getting charge backs. Plus, they may loose their merchant account.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Hello? That's the whole point. Sure, American citizens have credit cards that can be used in stores and for purchasing stuff online -- but they have no easy, consistent way of sending money to each other.
That's why a company like PayPal can exist in the US. In many European countries, PayPal is mostly obsolete.
I've maintained a PayPal link associated with my science fiction short stories and (small collection of) photos, with an explanation that somebody can show appreciation if they like my works just by establishing a PayPal account. With $5 for me and $5 for them (and no out-of-pocket expense for them), it's an easy (and profitable) way to show appreciation, right? It's optional, of course -- the content can be seen/read for free.
Have I received even one tip? Nope. Maybe my writing and photography sucks. Maybe not enough people are even seeing my work. Or maybe tipping via PayPal doesn't work, at least not the way I'm trying. Oh well, it's a good thing I'm not publishing that way to make a living! I do it mostly in the hopes that others will enjoy my stuff... If I end up with a few bucks, I won't complain, but that's not the driving motivation.
No Laughing Allowed!
After reading the article, I thought that it (PayPal) would be a fantastic way to accept donations for my work on various websites, technical support assistance, and things of the like. Unfortunately, their service is available only to Americans; as a Canadian, I am completely out of luck. Does anybody know of any similar services that they would recommend?
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CitizenC
Unless you are Finish, or have travelled extensively (and know that this gentleman is in error), I don't understand the incredulity behind your response. Are you sure that the contention of this polite Fin (i.e., no checks in Finland) is innacurate? Maybe he was using hyperbole, which isn't unknown on Slashdot. At any rate, your hostility was unearned.
Does it make you feel powerful to be rude to strangers?
As someone who has lived quite extensively abroad, I know that US banking is many years behind what is offered in much of Europe, so our Finnish friend may indeed be telling the truth, even if he has stretched the point.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
That doesn't mean they are less of a person.
And where was it implied that they were? You were reading what you wanted to into his words.
In short, the only person who should follow the advise to "get over yourself" appears to be you. At the very least, you should take a course in critical reading.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
Ditto -- I usually don't have the cash on me to pick up a burger at McD's. I live in Canada where we allow direct payment at almost all stores via a bank card (the same card you use to get cash out of the cash machines). The industry is open, compatible and fast -- I can spend money at any store with a 'debit' machine that I want, as long as I have the cash in my account.
... I promote privacy and security ... there are good middle-points.
That said, I don't care about the privacy of what I buy. The worst that can happen in 99% of cases is being targetted for advertising which I actually like. I do. I don't want to watch barbie commercials or courses for upgrading my skills. I want to see lots and lots of high-speed car commercials, ads for which stores offer me fastest and cheapest home delivery, etc. Targetted advertising is 'a good thing', as long as its anonymous.
With canadian banking cards, your name isn't on the card at all (except if you sign the back) and you don't have to hand it to anyone, you just swipe it through the machine yourself and punch in your code. No signing, no name, no nothing. Sure, they can break the law and store your card ID# to track your spending, but it won't get them anywhere in identifying me.
I like convenience
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
PayPLA?
Why, that's great, because those PLA people deserve every cent. It takes a special kind of person to describe how to really hack WWIV BBSes.
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
(I'm the original poster in this thread.)
Now, this is interesting. I will have to reread the current ToS.
To those who say that PayPal is a "micro-payments" service, I say that in the cases where I've been interested in using it, the payments were far above the "micro" level.
Yes, this is a big change from what it was when I contemplated joining.
Good for them. Looks like a reasonable service now.
It's not really an issue at the moment, is it? From the Terms of Use:
That "available soon" has been there since they started...
Hi!
The article talks about how the "micropayment wars are over" and that PayPal is oh so great and all-knowing. How come people outside the US can't sign up then? Please, if you write an article that only concerns US citizens, state that fact, too. Slashdot is international enough for that.
Now I dont know which "other countries" you are talking about, but I think it is a matter of different strategies to counter CC fraud. It seems that the US are concentrating on prosecuting those who commit fraud, but have a rather lax security, which makes fraud easy.
Here (sweden) we focus more on avoiding CC fraud by demanding ID+signature or a PIN-code with almost every transaction.(certainly every transaction large enough to be worth the effort) Therefore there is much less fraud to prosecute, which might lead to a less efficient judicial process.
Neither method is inherantly better. You gain the ease-of-use that comes with less security (like being able to use your card for mail or phone order) but pay a higher price in law enforcement. We lose some functionality, while being able to feel more secure with our cards.
Trouble starts when we try to interact. We get robbed, since we are not used to that an imposter can use our cards. You have a hard time, since the our police is not set up to handle a less secure CC policy.
Instead of blaming everyone for being anti-{your country here} instead ask yourself what your country could do to make their economy more accessable so the paypals of the world CAN set up shop in your country.
Oh our economy is accessable enough thank you. So accessible, in fact, that there is not much need for paypal. I can pay for things online directly from my bank account. I do need a little box that generates one time passwords, but I wouldn't trust a system with less security to access my money.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
Don't think WAP banking will catch on, though, until the phone companies catch up. I only think there is one bank here (ruotsi) who offers WAP banking. Unfortunately the bank must set up their own wap-gateway, since no operator supports secure transmissions. Good business for Nokia, who sells the gateways, but not good for wap tecnology...
All opinions are my own - until criticized
I'm sure they had huge problems with people "sending" money and then forgetting to hotsync. I beam you $5, you think you've collected...I go home, don't hotsynch, or lose my pilot, or (maliciously) reset all the pilot info (or delete the conduit...) Not to mention that I could "beam" you $5 that my Palm thinks I have that I don't, actually. For financial systems, you need more reliability than that. By forcing the transaction to occur online, it is possible to verify account balance, etc., realtime.
Of course, I'm one of those luddite throwbacks who thinks my Palm should be one device and my mobile phone should be another. And who thinks that trying to browse the web on my teeny-tiny Nokia 8890 screen wouldn't be any fun even if Nokia were stupid enough to put in web-access. As for putting my phone in my Palm, what happens when I want to write down a phone number while I'm talking on the phone? "Ok, Six..hang on...Ok...Five...Hang on...OK, Zero...hang on..." Until I can get a bluetooth wireless earpiece to hook into my Palm, I want two devices, thank you very much.
Which is not to say I don't miss the Palm beaming, too. I'll just have to wait until the Palm VII gets as small as the Palm V (the VII is big enough I'd just leave it on my desk all the time) so I can have portable net access.
I think Paypal is going to hit critical mass pretty soon; even if it cost them $16 million ($5 referral * 3.3 million) for their current user base that's peanuts for a startup these days. I wonder what their revenue model is? Hmmm...
Free music from Jack Merlot.
Free music from Jack Merlot.
Ooops bad link, sorry. AlphaPython is here instead.
Free music from Jack Merlot.
This is basically paranoia. Last time I checked, anyone to whom you give a personal check has your bank account number.
PayPal is backed by more than one major international financial institution. It appears to be pretty safe -- I've used them for awhile now on ebay, with no problems.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
From: http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/ema/
Common Uses for Send Money
Buy an auction item
Settle restaurant checks with friends
Pay a portion of rent to roommates
Send money to your children at college
;)
Well, at least he didn't say "and I use it to send money to my children at college!"
and full-service fueling
Really? I never realized one was supposed to, I had the impression the more expensive cost of the gas was supposed to cover their wages. How much do you tip?
Does everyone else but me tip gas jockeys too?
Now crummy waiters act as if they're entitled to 15% gratuity.
... if you wish them to refrain from spitting in your food next time you're there.
Well they are
Subject: Notice regarding PayPal's Palm software We wish to inform you that X.com will be discontinuing support of the PayPal software for Palm (TM) and Handspring (TM) organizers approximately three weeks from now. With the growth of wireless Internet applications and the rapid spread of web-enabled PDAs, we feel that we can best serve our customers by focusing on the creation of new features for our wireless payments platform. Your online account will not be affected when we discontinue the Palm support. However, you will no longer be able to synchronize your Palm software with your online account. X.com strongly recommends that you first synchronize your organizer and then immediately uninstall the PayPal software. (To remove the PayPal software from your Palm organizer, please consult the "Removing applications" section of your Palm manual.) Also, we request that you no longer "beam" the PayPal software on to other Palm users from this time forward. If you would like to learn more about using X.com on your web-enabled mobile phone, please visit our website at https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/g en/mobile_phone-outside.
We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you, and we wish to thank you for using X.com to send and receive money.
Sincerely,
The X.com Wireless Team
Sadly, I don't believe tipping will ever work. People would get used to getting stuff for free and not very many people would do it. There is no such thing as a viable non-enforceable payment plan. Just ask makers of shareware.
How many of those 3.3 million users are using their PayPal accounts for auction payments? What happens to PayPal if ebay should ban the use of PayPal, or ebay's competing product (Billpoint?) takes off? I recognize that this may be unlikely, but I think it does throw a shadow of doubt on the "certainty" of PayPal's success.
Hmm.. I dont see this as a big risk. Sure there are folks out there that will get some bucks through a system like this, and perhaps it will alter their 'creation' (whatever it may be), but if that alteration is for the worse (predictable) they will most likely fade away, if that change is pleasing to their audience (whoever that may be) more power to them..
I think most 'creative' people do some work for ca$h, and usually have something going on the side just for fun.. I don't see how this would change that. I know that part of the charm of something you create without any monetary pay-back, is that you dont have to answer to anyone.
--OK.. Did I get enough 'quotes' and (parentheses) in there?
air and light and time and space
PayPal does allow this. From their FAQ:
Do I have to register a credit card or verify a bank account in order to send money?
No. However, since your account will start with a $0 balance, before you send money to anyone, you need to fund your account by sending a personal check to PayPal or by adding funds through electronic funds transfers from your bank account.
So, you can send a personal check in, and fund your account that way. It's just that Credit Cards are more convenient for most people.
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$tar -xvf
Your comment reminds me of what's happened to tipping in meatspace. You know, in restaurants. Originally, tipping was meant to be a bonus given for very good or exceptional service. It was literally a gratuity -- you gave the tip because you wanted to, because you though the waiter/waitress deserved it.
But look at tipping now. You're looked down upon if you don't tip at least 15%, no matter how the service was. Tipping changed from being something done out of gratitude to something done out of obligation. You look like a cheap bum if you don't tip, period. Which really defeats the purpose of tipping in the first place. (Heck, a lot of restaurants automatically add a 15% obligatory "gratuity" to your bill for parties of 6 or more!)
Anyway, that's what your post reminded me of. Ten years down the line, maybe microtipping every site will be something you almost have to do. Or maybe not. OK, I'm done.
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The real Captain Derivative has a Slashdot ID.
I wonder if US anti-money laundering regulations have to do with this?
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Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
Umm... no offense to anyone who lives out of the states, but the US has enough potential customers to make PayPals very wealthy. Sure, they'd have more potential customers if they went global, but they are relatively small now (400 employees) and the complexeties of international trade coupled with the ever-changing mess of currency conversions. Again, the US has enough money changing hands to make PayPals very successful.
"Evil beware: I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hampster!"
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
IANAB (I am not a broker), and I don't know anything about e-gold. But, I do know that gold has not been a good investment over the past 20 years.
:(
http://www.kitco.com/charts/histori calgold.html Go here, and do some historical graphs.
Historical average 1833-1999: $25/oz to 1968. Then it lept to $600 in 1980, dropped to $400 in '82, and bounced between $300 - $400 until now.
Remember: you want investments to increase in value, and debts to decrease. Investing in gold & storage seems to reverse that.
But I'm just an optics geek, and not a gold guru.
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D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to troll, and I am not a qualified financial advisor.
Reading the basic "what is egold" blurb at their site, I must say that this looks like a terrible idea. If I understood correctly, they are marketing the idea of making purchases via gold redemption, and accepting payments in terms of gold purchases.
That's crazy!
- It's akin to paying/being-paid in stocks, and volatile ones at that. The most common advice given by financial advisors regarding investment vehicles is to buy-and-hold. Buying & selling stocks in the short-term for daily/monthly expenses would be considered foolhardy by most. But that seems to be the concept at e-gold.
- If you ever want to convert gold to curreccy, you'll take a hit from brokerage-type fees.
- You pay them for storage, unlike a bank which pays you to "store" your money.
I honestly can't think of a good reason someone would use e-gold. Even for international transactions, it seems using a credit card would be easier, simpler, and safer.
I welcome some comments from the pro-egold folks to explain why they use this service.
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D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
Ah, but if you have an account with a US bank you can. I've done business with canadians via PayPal.
Vote Naked 2000
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Does anybody else hate it how posting at some point in a discussion is futile, even if you have something important to say?
Anyway, there's another service called ProPay.com.
I interviewed with them a few weeks ago. Their head developer seemed quite clever, but I asked him a few times if they were worried about PayPal, and what he thought their strengths were. I'm not sure why, but he said "it's the other way around. They're afraid of us." He admitted their market lead, but said they didn't have the technical and marketing edge they did. Hmmmmm.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
PayPal has essentially none of the cool features considered desirable for a cryptographic cash protocol, so there's still plenty of room for competition based on better technology. Check out the Lucre home page for details of a (seemingly) patent-free system for providing untraceable electronic cash.
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Xenu loves you!
http://www.privatebuy.com/ from ecount.
This looked great right up until I got to the part where you can only load your account using an existing credit card.
Somebody else in this thread mentioned that one thing that holds back anonymous payment methods is that they could be used for money laundering, and I have to begrudgingly admit that that's a valid point. Even with limits such as those established by privatebuy ($500 worth of transactions per day, no more than $1000 in your account at one time), somebody could still hack a system where money was chanelled through a large number of accounts under different names. After all, the crime syndicates of the U.S. Government and credit card companies do need to protect their interests against the machinations of lesser crime syndicates.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, Neal Stephenson's short story The Great Simoleon Caper is an entertaining, thought-provoking look at the topic of anonymous e-cash.
So far, all of the online payment systems I've seen, including Paypal and Yahoo's payment service, are lacking in at least two areas:
What I would really like to see is a payment system where, as a user, I could set up an anonymous account and send the company a money order along with a note to "please deposit in account XYZ123". I would then have that much money to spend online. The payment company would collect a 1% service charge on everything I purchased, and all transactions are guaranteed to be as anonymous as practically possible (i.e. they would only collect enough data to prevent fraud and abuses, and never to share the data or use it commercially). People who wanted to receive payments through the service would have to identify themselves, of course.
Does anyone know if there is anything like this already in existance? Would you use it if it were available?
"Soon" has been quite a few months now..
Adam
Inexchange costs: somewhat painful. As for outexchange, the SOP is to calculate payments as the amount that could be outexchanged, so it makes more sense to look at all the exchange costs as inexchange costs. But re. storage: 1% per year? That's nothing. Your money shouldn't be sitting there that long anyway.
:) ).
All in all, if you're careful and willing to wait a while for your deposit to get in, you'll lose maybe 5-7% between putting money in and getting money out. The nice thing is that 5-7% holds no matter whether you're transferring pennies or thousands. Of course, that's assuming the precious metal market doesn't go nuts (of course it could go either way, but in the long term... well, asteroid mining can't help the price of gold much). Also, if you're in a rush, or you're lazy about shopping around, you can expect to lose closer to 15% through the transfer. Ironically, the best combination of price and convenience comes from funding your e-gold account with PayPal!
I think it's a pretty good deal if you want to send nickels and dimes all over the place, and you never keep more money in it than you are willing to lose. I think a fair assumption of risk is that your account will zero once every 2 years (yes, I pulled that number out of my hat; more below), at least unless they make some major changes to their security model. No big deal for a micropayment account, as long as you keep it in mind.
Obviously, I don't think much of the security. You have to remember that these people don't know you. With a bank, you go and create an account face-to-face, they have all sorts of nice meatspace backups and redundancies to make sure you are you when you go in to do something with your money. With something like e-gold, if you have the password, you must be the right person, and your account can be emptied, laundered through an anonymous e-cash system like digigold, and safely in the account of the thief in an eyeblink. You might be able to get your money back, but only if you could prove you didn't transfer it.
I also don't like the way they've eroded the legal foundation of e-gold. They keep talking about replacing the user contract, and they've got a clause which allows them to make any changes if you don't object within a week of them posting it on their website... whether you read it or not within that time. They made a big deal about the "unconditional right of redemption", which was your only last-ditch guarantee: if everything goes wrong, you can always have the metal in your account (having the cash value sent to you is not a guaranteed service; they have no contractual obligation to provide any service but that of returning your gold). In the proposed changes to the contract, they changed it to "conditional right of redemption", and they only have to give you your gold in neat bar-sized increments. Since a gold bar is worth something in the region of a year's pay, obviously this isn't a lot of help to the typical user. In the past, they dealt in coins, right down to silver coins worth under $20, so you could redeem practically any account. If the system ever becomes so insecure that everyone wants out, and nobody wants any e-gold, there's no guarantee that you'll get your money out. Basically, under the new plan, the emergency escape clause only works as long as there isn't any emergency.
It isn't secure, it isn't terribly convenient, and it isn't really cheap, but it works, it works all over the world, and it works now (that is, at least when the servers are up
Here's an e-gold discussion forum that goes way back. It covers the good, the bad, and the ugly of e-gold, with tasty sprinklings of marketroidese and paranoid ranting.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
~d
Micropayments involve incredibly small amounts of value. How much does a single HTTP request for 20K of data cost? We're talking about thousandths to millionths of a cent here. The smallest transaction you can make with PayPal is one cent.
As others have mentioned, you can't use PayPal outside of the US...
Mojo Nation is trying to create a mircopayment "barter system" backed in disk space, CPU, and bandwidth. It's bootstrapping the process with a distributed filesystem. You exchange your system resources for "Mojo" which you can exchange with other people consuming their resources (i.e. for downloading data from them). A single Mojo represents an incredibly small amount of value. In the long term we hope that Mojo will float on it's own and people will buy and sell it (possibly by using PayPal for settlement). We also hope people will build other services and charge Mojo.
Check it out, it's really cool, Mojo Nation.
Burris
(from PayPal's website):
/dev/null ?
The recipient gets an email that says "You've Got Cash!"
Do they really expect people not to dump such an Email directly to
The net has over 100 million users, the big three credit card companies have nearly a combined billion cardholders, yet according to Cringely the 3.3 million customers of PayPal makes them "unassailable".
In fact, I'd say that 3.3 million users is a very small set of net users, and that the real challenge is to reach those who are not geeks nor addicted to online auctions.
It sounds like a great service -- except where do I use it? I don't give money to friends that often.
I mean, I want micropayments for online web sites. It doesn't look like this has made any penetration into that market. According to the PayPal web site, eBay is accepting PayPal, but I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Apparently there are 3.3 million customers -- that have signed up to get a free $5. The float is $40M. That's only $12/person. That doesn't sound like it's getting a lot of "real" use to me.
On another subject, I remember that there was a guy in the early digital cash space that was trying to create anonymous digital cash. He considered it important from a privacy standpoint that digital cash should be untraceable, just like regular cash. I would imagine PayPal is not that, but does anyone know what happened to that guy or what happened with his technology?
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Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Before PayPal goes global, it has to figure out a good way of transferring funds to and from the users. This is a key problem that needs to be solved. Checks are totally out of the question globally, as well as credit cards to some extent. Virtually everyone in the States has a credit card, and they are easy to get. However, this is not the case worldwide, especially among teenagers and young adults, which I suppose are a key group for PayPal.
Online banking and money transferring in general varies a lot between different countries. Being a Finn, the primitive system of the States sometimes amuses me.
Here in Finland online banking has been available for over 15 years. Today, over 50 percent of the country's internet users use online banking. Nobody uses checks. I doubt they even exist in this country.
As far as domestic e-commerce is concerned, nobody uses credit cards. We have several payment options, one of which is an advanced money-transfer system. It basically is a normal online money transfer from one account to another, but allows the retailer to verify the transfer automatically, instantly.
What I'm trying to say is that PayPal has a long way to go to make it globally.
Give me a payment system, preferably anonymous, which doesn't claim the right to change the terms I've "agreed" to (using that term loosely) whenever they wish to, and I'm interested. Alternatively, how about I make the agreement subject to modifications documented on my web site and e-gold gets 10 days to dispute them.
My intent isn't to pick on e-gold, but on this practice in general. "I agree to $foo, $bar, and $baz, but you can change them any time you want." Why do you accept this?
Just to let everyone know. The reason PayPal is giving away $5 to each new user is because they make more than $5 on the balance left in your PayPal account.
It very similar to the way American Express makes a fortune on their travelers checks. All those unused travlers checks out there = $$$ in AMEX's pocket which it can invest to make more $$$.
Not that travelers checks/paypal are bad. They both make it more secure to make transactions in unfamilar environments.
My advice is to transfer your $$$ out of your account ASAP and for you to make the $$$ not them.
Cash in those unused travlers checks also!
That is all -click!-
-"The early bird catches the worm, but the late bird sleeps the most"
e-gold is still alive and kicking. (There's a refer(r)er-id in that link, if you don't want it chop it off. You have been warned.
But on the subject: e-gold is managing fine, and at least they don't have problems with people not from the US.
Within Norway, you can wire money to anybody with a bank account, regardless of which bank I, or they, use. To pay bills, I go online to my bank's Internet service, enter the account number of the person to transfer to, the amount, and the date at which the transaction should execute. Setting up recurring payments is also possible. Transferring between countries is also quite simple using the SWIFT system.
Now, I can appreciate why PayPal appeals to Americans, if only as a temporary stopgap until all your banks allow sending money to each other. In the meantime, my American friends keep "writing checks". Sheesh. Welcome to the future, guys :)
(I once cashed an American check in my home country. It took one month to clear, and the intermediates took a huge bite out of the total amount. Next time I used SWIFT and it took three days and the money were more or less intact.)
As an aside, PayPal only works with American credit cards. I am currently in the US, and in a recent eBay payment my Norwegian credit card was rejected because they could not verify the billing address (and there was no country field available for the billing address). I have also totally failed to buy stuff from MassMerchandise, where they consider my Norwegian email address to be "high risk" (duh!) and their billing-address verification system has problems even verifying American cards.
That's what paypal's for. Not the huge stuff where you NEED a non-performance garauntee. There are other safeguards in place to make sure your eBay product works (eg, the eBay feedback system). For the big stuff, I'll still use plastic, ThankYouVeryMuch.
And about paypal stealing your money once you give it to them: if too many people complained about this (in other words, if they did it often enough to make it worth their while), there would be an uproar and they wouldn't stay the "de facto standard" for very long. There are still alternatives...
The interesting thing about PayPal is that it allows you to get cash from a credit card, but the transaction isn't treated as a cash advance. Generally, credit card merchant agreements don't allow the merchant to sell cash charged to a credit card; the potential for fraud is too great. I'm not sure how PayPal got around this.
Micropayments are a non-starter. All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people who want to collect them, not from people who want to pay them. Micropayments are the past; flat-rate is the present. Remember when AOL and Prodigy charged by the hour?
Palmpal was very good. They even used to offer a means of paying other people or transferrinf money to others right through your PalmOS PDA. That was excellent until they cancelled it. This was an excellent system. I'm not saying it's not great right now, but the ability to use a PDA for paying was amazing. Can you imagine being at the store, taking out your PDA, aiming at an IR port, and then paying? I for one, would love that.
It's too bad PayPal got rid of this, because with this they could have continued being at the front of innovative payment technology.
At least, that's where I was putting my money.
Paypal is a great system, of course, this is in theory, since it is currently not possible to use it in Canada. So, basically, I can't use it. For that matter neither can a European, Asian, or anyone else. I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that the success of Paypal in the US is any indicator of whether this is actually useful in the real world. By that, I mean, the entire world.
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
I threw up a 50 cent donation link on the AOLiza site a few days ago and I've already gotten a good response. A few people decided to 'buy' multiple donations, upping the donation.
It makes me feel a lot better than throwing up a stupid banner on every page just to get some money. Apparently it makes my visitors feel better too.
Paypal rocks, though I'm really disappointed that they dropped support for the Palm...
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
It seems to me that the problem with previous micropayment schemes was not the scheme itself, but that there was never a situation in which the convenience of using the system outweighed the risks associated with trusting an outside party with your money and transactions.
eBay provided the fluid marketplace that created the situation where that convenience overrode the inherent mistrust of a newcomer like PayPal.
eBay brought the idea of the auction as a sales model to the forefront of the net, they also pioneered community based trust mechanisms that let their model survive even though they don't back transactions directly (something that would have quickly invalidated their business model).
What was supposed to be a concept that allowed high-brow concepts like online media micropayments seems to have come about largely because of the requirements of some people to sell $5 pens and beany babies.
Probably important not to forget that no matter how large the venture capital some firm gets to change the internet, most likely it won't succeed unless we decide it will.
I started out to register at PayPal, but because this was actual money we're talking about here, I took the time to read the agreement.
Bah! Feh!
If you use a credit card to pay for goods and services, you have the right to withhold payment for non-performance. The issuing bank charges back to the vendor in such cases.
You give that up with PayPal.
There's this long paragraph about reversing charges. In the event that you reverse a charge, you authorize them to turn around and re-charge your card. As many times as you reverse the charge, they'll put it back on.
Once you give money to PayPal you'll never see it again unless and until you sue them.
Sure, I own some CD's that I love so much I would have paid $50 for them. A tip system would be great to show my gratitude to the artist. And as the poster wrote, there are some personal websites that had me ROTFLMAO or greatly influenced me as a web developer and designer. I would love to send them $5 and say "Thanks! Have a beer on me."
That said, I wonder how long it will go on before things we used to do for pleasure and personal edification are motivated by the prospect of being micropaid for it. Art by the amateur has always been done for the love of producing art - it freaks me out a bit to think that amateur art may now be done for micropayments. Obviously, that's not the sole reason it's done but it could certainly be a motivator now. As an example, most /.ers participate because they enjoy participating but, be honest now, karma is definately a motivator, right? And what is karma? An abstract point system for quality posts - it doesn't really do anything but make you feel good. Now imagine if karma were micropayments - even more incentive right?
I guess I'm just wondering if micropayments will devalue the intrinsic good of things like art. I pull off and help someone change their flat tire or return a lost wallet to contribute good to the world, not b/c I'm hoping for compensation. A "Thanks a lot" is the only compensation I want. And while this may be extreme, it's possible these things could be motivated by the micropayment.
"Hey, nice shoes!"
"Thanks, here's a $1 micropayment!"
I realize that is a silly example but it helps to illustrate the possible trend towards money being the sole motivator and compensator for everything. I remember reading an article a while back about sites like Epinions and "expert" sites. They explored why people would devote large amounts of time to writing reviews and answering questions for complete strangers. The short answer was "egoboo" or ego boosts that came from being positively rated as a reviewer. But it made me proud that these sites went counter to the idea of the net being a commercial medium, like the corps view it. I was proud to be involved with a medium that is about free exchange of information and assistance with the motivation being the virtue of helping someone else out without compensation. I just wonder if micropayments for everything will threaten that notion.
Sorry to play devil's advocate but I have only read about how wonderful a micropayment system will be in light of the whole Napster fiasco. I've just been waiting for the other shoe to drop...
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We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry