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H-1B Visas Increased In 96-To-1 Vote
Quite a number of people have written in about about the vote to pass more H1-B Visas for the USA. The vote means an additional 80,000 visas, bringing the total to 195,000. So -- good thing? Bad thing?
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Why don't you ask an Indian if they feel exploited making over 60,000 a year instead of going home and making *much* less than 10.
I agree that companies are inherently going to try to screw people over and pay as little as possible...so fix THAT, don't just do away with it alltogether.
Mike
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
These jobs might be given to American workers if those American workers had the skills required. They don't. We interviewed a whole bunch of them. What looks like "excellent C++ skills" on the resume, turns out to be "took a class in it once" in practice. At least the European workers have the decency to not waste a company's time with artificially inflated resumes.
2
Malapropism
Actually, I think I was saying that many foreigners have trouble finding work, so increasing work visas will decrease the amount of good linux-coders since now they will be busy with work. Then again, I could have been saying something completely different, I'm not really sure.
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GetSystemMetrics(SM_SECURE) == FALSE
God I feel cynical about posting this but I did just watch two puppets run though the motions of a debate and now I'm feeling a bit angry. It isn't about congress believing the tech industry, its about the wholesale purchase of our representitives. They aren't listening to us on this issue, they are following the money.
The IT industry is paying both parties enough that it gets what it wants. If they want cheap workers on H1-B's they will get them. Its not about filling America's labour demand. If that were true we wouldn't be giving out temporary visas, we'd be giving out green cards. So don't have any illusions here, cheap workers provide the IT industry with money. Money buys votes.
No matter what the corporations are getting the upper hand...
But who is this really benefitting... That's right the real estate agents... Those evil people... Yeah it's a good thing that I as a soon to be CSCI college grade will be working a back breaking zillion hours a week... That way I won't notice that they disconnected my DSL service from my cardboard box cause I won't be able to keep up with monthly rent payments in the Bay Area...
So let's not jump on the foreigners so quickly... Instead let's kill someone from Century 21...
"If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten."
-- George Carlin
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
it's the only one that matters.
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GetSystemMetrics(SM_SECURE) == FALSE
Couldn't you have formatted this?
i'll take my negative karma for replyin to this
but someone please explain how this is a troll?
"These guys come over here and it's guaranteed" because BEFORE they come over their employer has to prove to the INS that the worker is trained and brings skills that could not be provided by an American worker. When I got my H1-B visa my employer sent me ALL of the paperwork that was sent back and forth between them and the INS. It was a pile of documents about 3 inches thick, accumulated over a period of months. Now that I'm in the US and sat in on a bunch of interviews, I can see why my employer would go through all the trouble of getting employees from outside the US. NONE of the US applicants had the skills needed. The European ones did.
Stop whining and start controlling your own destiny. You can moonlight to build up a clientele then either quit or wait for a pink slip before you go out on your own. But this takes hard work and persistence (which are not big attributes of the baby boomer class).
I'm afraid I just don't get all the comments about H1B workers being indentured. It's *really* easy for a company to transfer your H1B and hire you (it takes about 2-3 weeks). I just recently hired someone that way myself. So what's with that? Are these people just misinformed, or grinding axes, or what?
>> How incredibly arrogant. "You poor foreigners, you don't understand that the H-1B visa is bad for you, so we intellignent Americans must protect you by not letting you decide for yourself if you want one."
How is it arrogant? It directly affects him when he doesnt get a job because they're payng someone for 40 hours and getting 70-100 and decide they dont NEED anyone else. I suppose when we cant watch our children grow up because we're working 100 hours a week "like they do" and we're upset the government is SUBSIDISING this and how it affects our families quality of life, we're just arrogant.
I would like my employer to expect a reasonable workweek, y'know, 40-55 hours or so, but I guess I'm just arrogant.
While we're at it, lets get rid of the minimum wage, who are WE to tell people that they shouldnt work for $1 an hour? That would be arrogant to assume we know whats best for them, In fact, lets just get rid of ALL our arrogant labor laws.
>> so we intellignent Americans must protect you by not letting you decide for yourself if you want one."
You're right, we shouldnt decide our countries policies, we, as intelligent Americans, should let foreigners govern us and our policies. In fact, we should put in force policies that lower our families standard of living in favor of foreiners. After all, we would want to appear arrogant.
Fear the government that fears your guns. Fear the government that fears your computers. Remove them from my email.
Karma whore...
It is pretty obvious that you have not worked alongside H1-B workers, nor have you informed yourself of what it means to work on an H1-B visa. The company does not "own" the H1-B worker. You can switch jobs if you want, you just have to find a new H1-B sponsor.
I'm all for letting lots and lots of smart, well-educated people (and attractive ones -- fashion models are covered by H-1B visas too) into the U.S.
The system certainly allows for gross exploitation of these workers. However, the solution is more aptly to change the regulations surrounding the H-1B visas than to simply limit the number that may be issued. Permitting more of the visas is a short-term solution, but as a country we would err in not using the increase as a mere stopgap to totally revising the system.
As for training Americans for these jobs? Hah. The majority of Americans apperantly have an allergy to mere algebra, much less the fairly rigorous logical thinking that programming requires. The number of Americans entering computer science programs has been declining for a few years. We're certainly not stepping up to the plate and clamboring for more opportunities to write C++, despite the relative economic security of doing so.
My theory is this: in this time of economic prosperity, even people with flufball college degrees (you know, the Ancient Greek Art History majors of the world) can get reasonable jobs. There's not as much pressure for middle-class college students to major in the practical sorts of fields that are sure to provide jobs -- engineering, CS, etc. In a tighter economy, more people would feel the pressure to obtain high demand skills like programming.
On the other hand, people in less wealthy countries have a ticket to [relative] economic security with nice, practical jobs like programming. More power to them, but Americans are shooting themselves in the feet by not satisfying the tech demand themselves.
You must really hate your ancestors then...
Just don't let them over until I find a new job! Then, you can ship them over by the boatload!
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
Because I am damned foreigner!
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
I'm sick of this argument. Yes there is no shortage of programmers. Yes, it's about cheap labor. Just because you allow more people to work, you sure will create bigger pool of potential employees, and thus lower average salaries. So what?
What this obviously saying is that inviting very well educated people in the country is bad because this will lover salaries of locals. Why this should be considered at all?
This improves economy. This straightens lack of good education in America. This builds more educated workforce. Now that's the arguments. Of course US afraid of opening this door too much, just because local business would not be interested in local education at all. Or because of some other potential misbalance. But to say that US should not allow people enter to US because they work for lower salary - that is strange. That's what all newcomers doing everywhere - they work for lower salary. So what?
That's right. These people are taking the bread out of your children's mouth. You want your country to force business to pay salary to your children, when businesses want to pay lower salary for the same job to somebody else. You think it's not fair. I don't think so. And I do not understand why this is considered being an argument at all.
America is a country of immigrants. Who do you think should have the best opportunity to come here if not professionals?
And yes, I one of them, and I am proud of it.
Definitely a Bad Thing.
You know why?
Because, if this were really a free country, THERE WOULD BE NO SUCH THING AS VISAS!
People would be able to come here freely, if they wanted to.
Face it, we turn away many thousands from Mexico and Cuba for the "crime" of wanting a better life than they had. This is wrong and needs to be changed.
Immediately.
That's why I say the immigration laws need to go, the sooner, the better. It is wrong to force people to jump through legal hoops just so they can live on one piece of land rather than another.
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
Great, When I was working as a laborer, the Mexicans were taking the jobs, now I'm into computers, and they still are! I knew I should have taken basket weaving.
Fear the government that fears your guns. Fear the government that fears your computers. Remove them from my email.
Marge: IT's a thing. that's all that matters.
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ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
Malice95
If the visas are as bad as some people have commented, and it lowers the industry wages to a global standard, then it just might reduce the brain drain in Canada.
Added to which they're helping pay off your national debt instead of shoring up the tax base of their own nation of origin.And those older tech workers? They've all gone fishing anyway - they don't want the jobs these people typically take.
Everyone wins folks.
IIRC, there's something in the rules Congress follows that states that a vote on an issue can only be challenged/reopened by someone voting against the outcome... so, if you (potentially) want to debate an issue further after a vote, you must vote against the final outcome. In practce, this means you will find very few unanimous votes - in fact, I was suprprised at the 96-1 vote; I would have expected 95-2, with one member of each major party (Democratic and Republican) voting against the (perceived) majority just in case...
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
The entire U.S. immigration system needs to be overhauled. As it is, it's very hard to come from European countries to the U.S., since we have quotas on how many people we want, and we don't want more Caucasians. I have friends from Russia who have come here-they aren't allowed to work until they get their work visa. But it took them over a year and a half to get the visa. Cases like this are preposterous-how are you supposed to live for a year and a half before starting to work? As I said before, the entire immigration service needs to be overhauled and made more efficient.
Colin Winters
It's shocking to see how many people on Slashdot are completely clueless on the concept of H1-B visas.
For the record, I hold an H1-B visa. In the meanwhile, the company I work for is sponsoring me for a Green Card. It takes some time for a green card application to be processed by the INS. The H1-B allows me to work in the meantime.
I am by no means cheap labor. I am by no means indentured in any way. I get paid exactly as much as anyone else in my position does. If I don't like what I'm being paid I can ask for a raise or find a job somewhere else.
There are tons of other companies out there desperate for technical people. In all the interviews I've had, no one ever asked me what my visa status was - except in the context of how soon could I actually start. If I decide to switch jobs, it's a simple process of the other company filing a petition on my behalf - one which is always granted. It's just a month or so of delay.
Stop pitying H1-B visa holders. We don't need or deserve your pity.
Mmmm.. Donuts
From what I'm seeing through the comments about the H1B visas, there's just been an increase in the global trend toward *closing* borders, rather than opening them. These days, dictators hardly have to say "you may not leave" to their citizens - indeed, they can afford to throw their gates wide open, since very few of the "liberal democracies" will accept them in.
All around the world, it's becoming harder and harder to be recognised as a refugee. All around the world, it's becoming harder and harder to move from one country to another - often there's professional criteria to meet, sometimes there's a wealth criterion (Australia, for example, will accept immigrants - provided they pay). So much for global mobility...
Perkin's Postulate: Online tech support is designed to provide everything short of actual help.
Seems to be slashdotted, Mirror
Make no mistake about it - this is not about a shortage of programmers
uh...have you ever tried to put up a resume in the internet looking for a programming job?
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
I think you are mostly correct. It is indeed hard to find qualified applicants. Good engineers really are rare. However, I believe we are already getting the "cream of the crop" of H1-B applicants. Raising this number will simply enlarge the pool of chaff that we have to wade through. It will not help at all.
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The early bird catches the worm. The worm that sleeps late lives to see another day.
... most companies, at least the "big" firms I have worked for, are not interested in hiring an H1-B visa programmer ... they are more interested in the cheap labor aspect ... I know that there are exceptions but for the most part this is the case ...
AZspot
Okay, I don't know how it is for people of other countries, but people from mine have an intense desire to leave. Not forever, but for a few years at least.
:-) ), another working as a lawyer in the UK. My sister has worked on and off at ski resorts in Colorado.
:-).
Why? Don't really know actually, perhaps it's because New Zealand is small (You can get from one end to the other by car in a couple of days (Or one if you drive like I do and catch a high speed ferry)). Perhaps it's that the weather sucks most of the time. Perhaps it's that work is hard to get. 7% unemployment is actually quite good on an international scale, and I seem to be able to get employed whenever I want fairly easily. But many do not.
My mother worked in the UK for awhile as a bar maid, and my cousins are far away. One in the USA working on farms (He says he can do the work of 10 Mexicans
It's just something everyone wants to do, fuck off to another country for a few years and see the flipside of things.
The USA oft chosen because it's weird and the chance of getting a job is good and the pay is MUCH better than at home. Even when factoring in how much more things cost in the USA, it's still good money, my sister brings be back a new set of skis everytime
But let's face it, not many of these H1-B people actually want to live in the USA, you'd have to be nuts. They just want the MONEY.
Surely they understand (As my sibling did) that if they want to keep their job, they keep their head down and do the work. Get fucked off with an employer? Come back home and tell your mates about your crazy boss or the armed police or the constant advertising for pain killers.
Something to tell their children about.
An indentured servant is a limited term unpaid slave. The idea is that the costs of immigration are paid off after several years of labor. After that they are free to stay and work in the job of choice.
H1-B workers are almost the opposite of indentured servants; being paid workers who have to leave the country afterwards.
-Bruce (just another immigrant)
commie?
So you prefer corporate tyranny?
What brought the ungluing of Communist regimes to a head? A labor union led by a polish dockworker.
It makes no difference whether it's state tyranny or corporate tyranny, it's still tyranny.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
90% of everyone everywhere are morons.
Where borders cease to exist and you suddenly realise that ancient notions of evolutionary advantage due to geography no longer apply. It's all one big ocean and you either learn to swim or you sink like a stone. 'Fair' or 'its my right' are no longer useful concepts. But adaptability and co-operation are... - antoine
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but typing everything in all caps has the same effect on people as shouting in their ear.
If you would like to add emphasis (and you should listen to me because I am an expert - and I am not making this up), you should do something like this:
javac! javac compile code! javac javac!
Not capitalizing the first letter is intentional and good grammar. But to the point: even if you did that, you'd still sound like an idiot, or Tarzan. Maybe you'd sound like you're on crack. Have you been a moderator lately?
Turn the "Caps Lock" off and leave it that way, or have your pinky removed. Either will suffice.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
This is the distinction between architecture and implementation, invented by Fred Brooks, and is the only feasible way of managing a large project.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I know quite a few Americans who have trouble getting the papers to work in Europe. I know quite a few Europeans who would want to work in the US. It's quite absurd to realize that there's no way to simplify this.
The procedure in for getting your papers in France is a pain in the ass ... but when you're from a non-third world country it's usually much easier ... because french gov't agencies have this tendency to have very 'adaptable' rules. One day some document is requested, another it's not.
Well actually I *thought* it was a pain in the ass until I went on a vacation in the US. At the customs they asked me for the address where I was staying. I didn't know, as I was meeting my friend somewhere. So after 2 hours of waiting and inquiring I just said that I was staying at the Hilton. If you can claim anything, why even bother asking? Stupid bureaucracy.
--
A comma, if omitted often enough, becomes extinct.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
And yes, that was my server. Its now down. It'll stay down.
Linux is only Free if your time is worth Nothing
Linux is only free if your time is of no value
Be in Your Senses
May 21, 2300 New New Delhi -
Earlier Today President Srinivas Varadun signed into law the "Neo-Indian Equal Opptunity Act", signifies a new chapter in national reconciliation.
The Neo-Indian Equal Opptunity Act, gives Indian with European and African ancestry equal rights in political, education, and economic life in our nation as Indians with Asian ancestry. European and African Indians long claimed that they were the first settlers on North America continent.
"At the begining of this new century, we are at a pivotal moment in our nation's history, " President Varadun said at the ceremony, which was held in front of Presidential Palace, overlooking New Bombay Bay Area, "The long deferred dream of European and African Indians can, and must be realised. I spoke about it in detail to the members of the Senate and House today. I will only repeat that it is a daunting challenge, requiring both rigorous effort and realistic patience."
Around 3000 European-African Indian civil right activists gathered at nearby Golden State Park and chanted "We shall overcome".
=================================
Okay, I hope I didn't offend anyone.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
If this were a raise in the number of teamsters or auto workers being allowed into the country there would be riots in the streets.
I know what you can do about it.. learn japanese. This may sound a bit harsh, but let me explain a little. I was in university (groningen, the netherlands). we had courses in 3 different languages (no, not 1 course in 3 languages: 1 course, 1 language): dutch, english and german. This wasn't a problem for anyone, and neither were teachers with english as a 2nd language teaching in english, which was also our 2nd language. Let's face it: the scientific world is an international one, and we're not all suddenly switching to english.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Well, there are people moving in the other direction too. I'm an American working as a postdoc at the University of Waterloo, and the CS department here has a large percentage of Americans at the faculty level.
I'm not saying that you're not right, but here's how I'm going to deal with it. I'm going to teach at a university when I get older and more experienced and I cost too much for anyone to hire.
By the way, what age is "older" nowadays? 25? I've got about a year left, I think. After that, I'll be guiding young minds in the Ways of Programming and Systems Engineering...
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
I'm over 30 and I don't know anyone else over 30 who's out of a job. Every engineer I know over 30 has a great job. In fact, most of the engineers I know are over 30.
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Premise: the demand for computer skills is a normal downward-sloping curve. Conclusion: the price of computer skills will fall. The number of employed computer skills will rise. Premise: computer skills are a bottleneck in economic growth. Conclusion: economic growth will rise. Further conclusion: demand for computer skills will rise faster than it would have had it not been increased in the first place. Comment: if the price isn't constrained, there is no such thing as over- or under-supply. There is just a different market-clearing price. Further comment: if all the above is fairly close to right, the only people who might lose will be those with computer skills already in the US, and then perhaps only in the short run.
There is a shortage of programmers in this country that's why so many of us are overpaid. Getting more programmers into the country is a good idea but I don't think H1-B's are the way to do it.
Having competition which can be forced to accept lower wages is unfair to american programmers. If foreign workers are going to be imported then they should be allowed to compete like everyone else.
If we're going to export software assignments to foreign programming houses, fine. If we're going to allow more people to emmigrate on the basis of having a usefull skill, fine.
But H1-B's are a farce. They solve only part of the problem, they're only a temporary fix, and they're extremely exploitive of the foreign workers.
The various gov't agencies responsible for processing these things can't keep up w/ the 80,000 they are currently responsible for.
Um.... "invented by Fred Brooks"????
The distinction between architecture and implementation has been in (for example) the building industry for thousands of years!
You even used the word: ARCHITECT!
The only advantage I see to makeing H1B permanent is maybe then you'll stop dragging down my wages. And don't give me that crap about an IT shortage, those of us in the business know fully well there isn't one. However, it would be totally unfair to place H1B visa people ahead of all the immigrant registrations, so that really isn't an option. Past that, I see no reason to allow everyone in the world to immigrate to the US. Most other countries, including the ones most H1B's come from, wouldn't dream of letting US citizens enter their country to steal jobs from the current citizens. This has nothting to to with xenophobia (which is an incorrect term in any case) They only reason they let H1Bs in is for cheap labor. So save the FUD on SS.
The Game Guy
Excellent idea! There actually _is_ a shortage of teachers. WOuld be novel - legislation that actually addresses a problem.
The Game Guy
Of course he's tired, on six hours sleep a night. Soon he'll be even more tired, working twice as hard on three hours of sleep a night :)
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Fine..more foreign IT professionals...all I have to say is Will the countries in Europe repay the favor to the USA by letting US Citizens move there to work?
I think not.
- drink, fight, and fuck..thats all that really matters
Managers make decisions on the information they have.
Programmers in the "good old greenspun sixties" were LOUSY at giving good information to management. Who the hell cares if your system works if the people paying the bills can't understand it? The people paying the bills NEED to understand it because they are the ones using it to make more decisions - and around and around it goes. Oh - and thanks for Y2K btw.
I also cannot understand how anyone could DEFEND airline reservation systems as some paragon of reliability and coding excellence! Greenspun has obviously never flown much. The number of times I have heard (in 25 years of flying for business) "Sorry sir I can't get into the computer system right now it's 'frozen'".
Great system Phil, just great.
There are just so many wrong headed idiocies in Greenspun's rants that one does not know where to start (or stop). "There is no middleware in airline reservation systems" Greenspun tells us. Wrong. Denver was delayed for "years" because they couldn't get baggage working. Wrong. Greenspun's opinions sound like his main information source is USA Today.
Greenspun has been so wrong so often about the internet. To be fair, he's been right too - but usually singing someone else's song.
Greenspun's business model? Write incomprehensible code using system architecture no-one else knows anything about (AOLServer anyone?) and then charge a filthy fortune to "maintain" (read: bughunt) the system. Works for Phil I guess.
I prefer to create using "well staffed" technologies using tight specifications that companies and their clients love. They know what they asked for - they know that it works. Never had a call about my systems "freezing" either.
Why anonymous? Because ya may as well spit in church as critisize Phillip-bloody-Greenspun.
But modern US immigation law makes it so difficult to immigrate that a large proportion of immigrants are now 'illegals': those with so little to lose that they will flout the law. The xenophobes then hold up these illegals as typical of all potential immigrants, and demand ever stricter limits, or even a complete ban on immigration (check out Pat Buchanan's rant). If young, well-educated, productive, English-speaking professionals want to come to the USA in order to work and pay taxes, why do we look a gift horse in the mouth?
BTW, there is a looming 'Social Security crisis' in the USA, since there will be more retirees and fewer workers in the coming decades. Conventional wisdom says that the 'only solution' to the crisis is either to raise taxes and/or cut benefits. But conventional wisdom is wrong. If we allow young, educated, hard-working, motivated, English-speaking people to come to the USA to work and pay taxes, the 'crisis' will disappear!
So, when the politicians end up raising your taxes now and cutting Social Security by the time you retire, you can place the blame squarely where it belongs: on the xenophobes who perpetuate the current US immigration policy.
H-1B workers are great for industry. Don't train them, work them long hours, pay them less, then get rid of them when you want. I suggest that the industry invest in training rather than just trying to hire more foreign workers.
Wow. This is a terrible thing. I work for a big software/services firm that hires and fires "disposable work visa wogs" for an unreal amount of talent/fear for their buck. They ask for lower wages, work longer hours, and suffer a lot more abuse than any other american employee would stand for. All for fear of being sent back to Calcutta if they're let go. ( and they're let go at the drop of a hat. ) It sets a terrible standard/expectation for the whole industry. An industry that refuses to retrain or retain workers over 35. Just a lot cheaper to have a disposable h1b that you can throw away whenever you want. I've watched it happen, and it just messes up people's lives in incredibly bad ways. All in the name of cost cutting. What a sick way to run things. Depressing topic.
Also agreed. GCs and citizenship over H-1B anyday.
I think if you look at the bill itself, you'll see a lot of steps in this direction: Summary of S.2045
Of note - increased portability of H-1B status and I-140 backlog reduction:
Portability of H-1B status: in some areas, yes, you can transfer an H-1B in a few weeks, so it's not a big deal for employee or employer. In Sillycon Valley, which is "serviced" by the INS California Service Center, it's a multiple-month wait. (CSC is the slowest of the four INS centers.) Being able to transfer one's H-1B at the time of petition submission is a major win.
Portability of I-140s and LCs:If I read this correctly - and IANAL - but it sure looks as though it means "no more indentured servitude." If I read that section correctly, it sounds like "If INS has stalled on your I-140 for > 6 months, and you can get the same job at another employer, you don't have to start your Green Card process from square one". (Again, IANAL, and if I'm wrong on my interpretation of that section, someone needs to point that out, because I don't want anyone misled).
Backlog: Both the language in S.2586 which would tell INS to get its ass moving on cases pending more than six months, and Congressional funding for adjudications (as opposed to enforcement-only, which has been policy up to now) might give INS the capacity to reduce the backlog. This is INS we're talking about - so whether they have the will to do what they're required to do under this law remains to be seen. But if they don't, the bits about increased portability of H-1B visas as well as labor certifications and I-140s seem to be good protection to workers caught in the trap of having their paperwork sitting on an INS shelf for 2-3 years.
Again the moderators are clueless. Score 4... sheesh!
"Fixing the schools" will provide relief in a decade or two, not this year or next year, which is when these visas are going to be issued.
Every time H1-B stuff comes up, there are 400-500 posts. Experienced people claim older workers will get screwed. Less experienced people believe their skills are so great they will be spared. The difference between these two camps is the experienced people were at one time less experienced people.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I don't think most programmers are not keeping up to snuff with the latest and greatest tech ... that isn't the issue here ... the issue is the restriction of the labor market by unfair unfree means that reduce the wages of the American programmer and contribute to age discrimination and a general reluctance of firms to hire older programmers ...
So your tired bromides aside ... this really isn't the picture ...
AZspot
Being a police officer or fireman requires you love your job, otherwise you're gonna end up hurting a lot of people instead of helping.
In any case, if you don't *love* computers, how could you possibly get into an IT job in the first place?
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
I certainly agree that it is surely having an effect over-seas. I should have pointed out that I agreed with you about that part. I mostly just don't see congress being that subtle. Interesting point thought.
The Game Guy
Well... how many people can maintain a mac as opposed to maintaining a pc?
That's a definite area where qualified people are horribly lacking.
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
Again, I am _not_ saying let's not have immigration. I'm not saying block tech people. I _am_ saying block this short cut method of importing cheap labor. I seriously doubt your great-grandfather came in under a special issue visa that was created via lobbying group.
Didn't say SS crisis was FUD. I said your bringing up of it was - or at least that's what I meant. And actually, I'm _very_ much for reform of it (privatize a portion) and, nope, I don't expect to see a dime from it. I have my own retirement funds. What was this pot shot for anyway?
The Game Guy
I am all right now
Therefore I will be all right forever
Therefore, everyone else is all right now and will be forever.
There are numerous other, well-documented cases of H1-B horror stories, from people who have not had your good fortune. In assuming that your case applies to all of these, you provide ammunition for the advocates of H1-B versus green card, and do them a disservice. You may end up regretting taking this stance, but whether you do or not, it's still wrong.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Anyway, working unpaid overtime in startups is a norm, not an exception.
An Intel spokeswoman said something it was a good thing, as they have had to re-deploy expired visa workers to other plants around the world. I dunno, after reading the FaceIntel site, it sounds like more meat for their meat grinder.
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
will allow H1B holders to keep the status beyond the six years, if they are waiting for a green card
will allow persons from "oversubscribed" countries (e.g. India and China) to receive Green cards beyond their per-country yearly quota, if there are any left in a given fiscal year. Right now about half of the employment-based green cards that can be awarded in a year go unclaimed while people from India and China wait 5-6 years to fit in their country's quota.
will allow persons, who have filed the paperwork for adjustment of status to permanent residency to change employers (in a similar job), if they have been waiting for more than 180 days.
will allow H1B holders to switch jobs more easily - as soon as their new H1B petition is filed, as opposed to waiting for it to be approved
For a summary of the bill, take a look here. (Warning - a lawyer site).
While we're increasing H1B visas, to allow for more foriegn workers into our high tech job market. Christopher Newport University in Virginia is canceling it's graduate programs in physics, biology and computer science so they can build a new art building! I guess they figure that a liberal arts degree is the way to go. Do you want fries with that Mr Abu?
Well, given that english, dutch, and german are all from the same linguistic group (and very closely related to dutch besides), one might dismiss this as a trivial example. (An extremely trivial example, in fact: my Oma picked up english in a matter of weeks. In 1944. In Rotterdam.)
Let's just say that people learning languages from different linguistic groups would have considerably more trouble than you did. That isn't to demean your achievement, merely to place it in better context.
I work with a number of ESL people from east asia - Vietnam, Korea, China by and large. They have two real milestones to fluency.
First, they have to know the language well enough to converse technically. Second, they have to know the language well enough to converse socially and professionally - to help out the sales department, to share information around the water cooler, to lead a team.
Most people come to the job with the first milestone achieved (some mastered, some barely). The second milestone takes years, and it's very difficult if not impossible to gain a position of leadership without it.
We have plenty of second-generation Canadians (people who were born here but at least 1 parent wasn't) in management and team leadership. I'm one myself. We only have one PM (an Argentinian) who doesn't have english as a native language. Language is an incredible barrier to job advancement and career success.
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There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
As an Indian on a H1-B (we're 50% or more of the people on H1-B), let me be honest. Most of us on H-1Bs are here to stay. We usually marry a wife (from India, arranged marraige), and we have kids here (American citizens by birth). So you can make the argument that we bring 3x the amount of people allowed by H1-Bs. Yes, we drive down wages, because we like being paid 40 times more than in India, even though it's low by American standards. And there are ways to get around U.S. immigration law after you get the H1-B - check sites like rediff.com, goyogi.com in their immigration sections if you want more details. I am troubled by the fact that with more people allowed on visas, the quality of programmers is going down - but if you were in India, and it's constantly promoted to you that you can get a job "instantly" in the U.S. with a few courses in Java and HTML, what would you do? But this is a global economy. If companies want to drive down American wages by paying us, we're more than happy to take it.
You are uninformed. As a H1-B worker I can change jobs, it just requires a delay while the new employer handles the transfer of the visa. That takes a couple of months, maximum. I can ask for more money - in fact I just had a review and was given a good salary increase and extra stock on top of my already-generous grant. Extra holiday to go home and visit my family? Four weeks, not a problem.
You seem to be underestimating the demand for labor in the professions that qualify for this kind of visa - there are still nowhere near enough good employees available! I interview people every week (current and potential H1-B candidates as well as US citizens) and a lot of them aren't fit to maintain a Macintosh. It's not like we're not offering good money, stock, health plans, all kinds of other benefits - we get plenty of applicants, just not many quality applicants.
If the USA wants to maintain technical leadership, expansion is exactly what the H1-B program needs. The countries losing the professionals that qualify certainly wish they weren't all leaving for greener pa$ture$.
If an industry wants something, that means it's going to screw people over.
Knee-jerk, jealous leftist rubbish. I'm sorry if this is not the case where you work (if you ARE a H1-B worker) but at my company I've never seen employees treated so well. If people aren't happy they are NOT productive - and if they are unhappy enough they leave. It costs money to train new hires - screwing people over doesn't even make business sense.
This is less about xenophobia and language barriers than about the state of education. Theoretically, professors are there to teach. In fact, they are there to do research and bring acclaim/money to the university with said research. I'm sure the woman in question is doing some important academic work at the frontiers of Computer Science.
I say it's not about language because I've had plenty of English-speaking teachers who clearly thought of undergraduate teaching as janitorial work, and put no effort whatsoever into it. They should not be teaching students who are paying to learn.
By the same token, people who cannot speak the official language of a country should not teach in that country. I speak French as a horrendous second language and I would not dream of attempting to teach French students.
What really pisses me off is that at my college I work in a program tutoring people from our maintenance staff, mainly from China and the Dominican Republic, in English. They are required to take it. Yet many of them speak equal or better English than many professors, but nobody would consider demanding that the professors learn the language.
In conclusion, expecting someone to be qualified for his or her job is not racism.
grep -ri 'should work'
If we're going to let people into this country, it might as well be people who contribute. I've worked with many H1B workers, and they work just as hard if not harder than many citizens. As far as communication skills go... if you can't understand them, don't hire them. Someone else will.
Have you read any of the comments here? Or has your reading comprehension suffered from your diminished sleep? Programming work is being "out-tasked" to foreign workers, regardless of programmer competency or efficiency ... the bottom line is that foreign H1-B Visa workers are cheaper, by a factor of 3 ... this "prevailing wage" business is nonsense ... when the labor market is constricted, there is not a free flow of labor ... what many companies are identifying as "non-core" are the technical programming tasks ... so regardless of how good a coder you are, it does not matter ...
I believe in the free market also. But importing of H-1B visa programmers is not a "free market" - if they are to be sponsored and made citizens, then fine ... but that is not the scheme that is being perpetuated ...
AZspot
I'd hate to find myself on the wrong side of a 96-1 vote.
:)
Once faced with an up-and-down vote on H-1B visas alone, only one Democrat--Ernest Hollings of South Carolina--voted against the legislation, without citing why.
That poor bastard.
Now if only there was a requirement that additions to a bill had to be ON TOPIC! Adding in stuff about immigration in this bill isn't that bad, but when they sneak in random riders about internet freedom and crop subsidies in with legislation about crime legislation or trade agreements... Well, after a while it just gets silly.
The topic should be established at the top, and anything that doesn't fit shouldn't be allowed in the bill. Vote on one issue at a time, guys.
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Adjusted market value? Let's see, minimum wage is, what, $5.50 an hour now...?
I'm only being partly facetious. My last job - which was supposed to be tech support but wasn't, which is a story in and of itself - paid $8/hr. I'd take that at this point.
This will have a much larger affect than "just" letting 115,000 people have a great job in the US. Sure, the US will eventually destroy itself due to its popularity, and things like the IIT review and the MPAA case make it not 100% kosher.
But think of all the people who are used to being paid less than US minimum wage for "offshore" outsourcing companies like those in India. About a month ago there was a "Should I outsource?" Ask Slashdot question and I was (for lack of a better word) interested in the treatment of these offshore high-tech workers. I did a bit more research and found that just about all of these extremely talented people (mostly in India) were getting paid $2USD or less an hour, on average. For tasks that would get $100USD/hr in the States.
I hope that tens of thousands of people will find a new life that pays well in the US because of this bill.
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qslack.com
If the number of visas granted increases, but the chances of getting a green card and, eventually, citizenship, decreases as a result of the increase in applications for these things, then it may be a net loss. As I understand things, most people who get H-1 visas try to get citizenship or, at least, a green card, so they can gain the freedom they really should have to begin with.
None of this is a problem as long as people's expectations are set properly ahead of time, before they apply for an H-1 visa. If they know that they're unlikely to get a green card or visa due to the time the INS takes to process things and are aware that they will be unable to change companies during their stay in the U.S., then I have no problem with this (otherwise sad) state of affairs: the results will be from a well-informed choice rather than from propaganda.
But unfortunately, I expect the INS situation to get worse as a result but for people to continue to expect to get green cards and citizenship. More people will be disappointed as a result, and that will be a shame.
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A steady stream of resumes is a waste of time. At work I've had to sit in on a number of interviews. Most of the people that we interviewed were totally clueless. The only two smart people (which we ended up hiring) where a German and a Frenchman.
Yes. He is unwilling and unable to deal with anyone who doesn't look and sound like him.
Unfortunately, he's going to find himself out of place in a global market where every day you have to deal with people who don't look, sound , or act like you, and guess what - picking on their accents won't write your paycheck.
it was moderated as flamebait because it's dumb, ill-considered, and inflammatory. According to the original poster's "logic", the USA has been a decadent empire on the decline for the entirety of it's history.
I do not see how it's related to the topic. Import of professionals from India does not improve poverty there...
That's right, this is my motivation for coming to the US. But it is not motivation for US to allow me to come here. That is the point. Not how H1-B will affect somebody's personal financial status, but how it'll affect economy - this is what should be considered to answer the question: Good or Bad?
It's like M$ argument that after breakup the prices for the software will likely rise... So what? Yes, somebody will probably even loose the job, but the market health will be improved. That's what the law about - improve overall balance, not just somebody's wealth...
By your own logic, which I accept, the managers and executives aren't clueless.
When computers are vastly more expensive than programmers, it's cheaper to write good programs that require less hardware. When the reverse is true - and, due to Moore's law, getting ever more true - it is cheaper to buy a bigger computer than a better programmer. Even for consumer software this applies: 64 extra Mb of RAM cost less than most programs (beyond the free stuff like email clients).
Business logic therefore inevitably says: cut down on labour costs by using RAD tools and easy-peasy programming languages; your programs won't be as good (fast, elegant, slim etc.) but that won't matter because hardware is always getting cheaper.
End result: programming becomes deskilled. That's the free market. Those of you who profess to be libertarians should deal with it and stop whinging. (The rest of you may whinge.)
You seem to be suggesting that Canadians working in the US on TN visas can't bring their families (please, correct me if I read your post wrong). This is simply not the case. I was given the option of attaching my wife and son to my TN. When I asked what it entailed, the response was "nothing". It was simply a yes or no question they asked me.
/. record, since you didn't address any of this in your post) I'm on my second TN (after switching jobs), and I'm paid market salary for my position/location. While a TN visa does tie you to a specific employer, switching employers isn't difficult. All it requires are the correct papers (hire letter, credentials, etc) and a trip to a POE.
For the record (the
The problem is the INS: it takes them forever to complete even the simplest administrative processes. This results in a lot of uncertainty and hardship for foreign workers. Of course, the INS itself also has a hard task: immigration rules are highly complex, and the INS is getting mixed messages from the other parts of government.
If there is any reason not to increase the H1Bs, it is that the INS cannot even handle its current paperwork. Doubling the number of H1B visas means that they will fall even further behind.
It would seem many industry exec's don't want to consider hiring older more experienced workers, who cost too much it would seem. It has nothing to do with a lack of workers, and everything to do with a lack of workers at the right price who can work obscene hours without keeling over.
PRAY FOR MOJO
As for Greenspun, he is right that most code is poorly written. But H1B holders don't write code that's any poorer than the code US citizens write. And, having seen lots of mainframe code, I can assure him that 1960's mainframe code wasn't particularly good either.
AZspot
Personally, I can only see good coming from this. If you think for a moment, this isn't like NAFTA, Americans wont be losing jobs, and the workforce will gain a better diversity than it once had. Why do I say Americans won't be losing jobs? Well, we're not talking about some sweat-slaves in a tshirt factory, but rather fully degreed professionals. It ends up helping everyone in the end. Diversification, a simple idea which I can only boil down to a single example - When was the last time you set up Hewbrew/Big5/Kana support in X? These people coming from other countries know things about technolgies either not needed, or not domestic to us, and vice versa, we all learn from one another on top of it all. I'm a bit scatterbrained tonight, gomen.
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H1-B quotas don't make a lot of difference to Canada's brain drain. NAFTA gives us a better option.
It's just not true that H1B workers can be deported by managment.
/. now, and people keep repeating this, and others keep correcting it. Oh well...
I've read several of these H1B discussions on
Now, some H1B workers no doubt believe that the can be deported like that, but that is a bit different.
I've been interviewing programers and DBAs for the past 2 weeks and there doesn't seem to be a shortage, in Los Angeles atleast. I get a steady stream of resumes.
People keep missing this point: you can't just pick up a green card and start working. It takes years (3-4 at least) to get an employment-based PR, thanks to INS' incompetence. For many of us, the H1B is a temporary measure that allows us to stay and work while waiting for the immigration visa to go through. Unlike most nonimmigrant visas, H1Bs allow dual intent: you can enter as a temporary worker while simultaneously seeking permanent residence. Until INS is fixed, would-be immigrants will have to use H1Bs as a band-aid to get by.
I am one of those slashdot readers who knows nothing about H-1B visas but I do know that the processing of applications and the granting of visas takes taxpayer dollars to complete. I also know that there are bright, talented American citizens who are not participating in the technology industry due to lack of exposure to technology in our public education system. Why don't we put those dollars to better use and turn them within to elevate our educational standards and broaden the exposure to technology (and everything else for that matter) provided to our young people. This is not meant to be nationalistic hype but the world is divided in to counties and each has its own economy. The global marketplace has yet to change this fact. It seems like an obvious decision to bolster our own citizens before we bring more in from other countries. The idea of the melting pot is a very old one that was established at a time when the U.S was just starting out. Now that we are not only an established country but arguably the driving global force behind technology and science we may need to reconsider the imigration policies and focus our energies on building a workforce from the raw materials (smart kids) that we already have. Or we can continue to give accolades to the highschool athletes while ostrasizing the quiet, bright individuals and import our geeks from elsewhere.
As a software dev at an internet company one of the things that I have knowingly given up is the time to have a family, or really much of an outside life.
Right now I am young and am getting paid very very well for what I do.
I should be more desirable to an employer than you because I do put in the hours and I get the job done. You act like you have some sort of right to get the same level of respect from your employer as me, even though you get to go home and play with your kids, or whatever your family responsibilities include. From where I sit, that is just bs.
It's just a fact that there is a lot of competition in high tech and if you can't hang then get out.
I know of several companies where I could go work right now and my hours would instantly be cut in half. I wound up accidentally working at a company like this when my last company got bought by one of them. I left there for more of a challenge, but these places do exist. The work is not as exciting or high profile, but what do you expect? They only work office hours there.
Just a point of order. The Avro Arrow cancellation had nothing to do with risk taking. It was simply a victim of the traditional Tory Kiss-America's-ass factor.
For anyone moderating who doesn't understand, this isn't a troll/flamebait. It's a Canadian political fact.
At 96-1, I don't expect to see this as an issue at tonight's presidential debate, since both parties heartily endorsed this measure, thus casting a huge vote of No-Confidence in the US schools they all lie about fixing. Whores.
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I'm just wondering...considering programmers are considered one of the higher paying jobs, how is it that programmer's wage is held down? So a question is how much should a programmer be paid?
Bullshit. You return to your country a virtual millionaire, and with the expierence of working here. How does your government lose?
You paid a total of what? $60 for your education? You think your governments concerned about that $60 when you return with $60,000 in cash?
I keep seeing H1-b's returning to live like millionaires in their home country, where the money is worth more. We're not really subsidising immigrants who will live HERE, we're subsidising foreiners to live above their standard of living in their OWN country while taking away from ours HERE. As long as the H1-b's return to their own country, we lose.
Fear the government that fears your guns. Fear the government that fears your computers. Remove them from my email.
Again and once again, Democrats and Republicans, after some token debates and bogus controversies, have decided to bow down to the floor to the last desires of the hi-tech industry. And the hi-tech industry is very very very happy.
:-).
... in theory. I'm an H1-B worker and I've recently experienced first hand what it means. My former boss having squeezed the last drop of patience out of me, I've decided to move on at the beginning of this year. A bit of Web browsing and an interview later, I had secured a new job, cool people, well paid, etc, etc. I received and signed the offer the following day. There starts a 2-phases process. 1) The company (its lawyers) asks an approval from the Department of Labor to validate the offer. All in all, it takes about 10 days. 2) The company petitions the INS for the visa itself. As I already have an H1-B visa, I don't have to wait for the H1 quota. The role of the INS doesn't involve any decision or inquiry whatsoever. It is plain and pure pushing paper thru automatic rubber stamping: something that could be done overnight. It took 5 months ! If at any time in between, my previous boss had learned anything about it, he would have fired and kicked me in the first plane back to home. That would have meant reentering the quota. I would still be waiting for my visa right now. And believe me, the bastard would have done that without an after-thought. Those 5 months were ... kind of scary.
:-), and who simply want shut off the spigot:
And even most important for the hi-tech industry, Democrats and Republicans, after some token debates and bogus controversies, have also agreed to completely sweep under the rug the most urgent issues about the H1B and E2/E3 programs. And, there, the hi-tech industry is very very very happy too.
And guess who gets screwed in the proceeds ? Both American workers AND foreign workers. Those programs DO create a disloyal pressure on local workers, depressing wages and heightening the workload expectations. And by design, employers can pressure foreign workers at will.
H1-B workers and also those waiting for an employer-sponsored Green Card (E2 and E3 programs) are in a situation where they simply cannot say NO to their employers when an American worker would simply kiss his boss goodbye and jump ship.
The key words are: PORTABILITY and FUNDING AND SPLITTING THE I.N.S.
As long the ability to stay and work in the US is closely tied to one specific employer, nothing will change. It is obvious that those programs must remain tied to the employment, but at least, you shouldn't have to restart a procedure like an E2 from scratch each time you move to a new employer, as long the new position is similar to the previous one.
For those who don't know, an E2 is a "fast-track" Green Card program for M.S.+ and Ph.D. qualified workers. It currently takes at least 2 years of bureaucratic hurdles before you can pretend to jump on the waiting list. And then you have to wait again until the country quota reaches you. For Europeans, it's fairly fast as the demand is lower than the quota. The waiting list for Indians and Chinese is years long ! And then you have to wait again until the INS find somebody to process you thru the interview and medical exams. Total is, at the fastest, around 30 months. E3 is more or less the same for people with bachelors, just slower.
Oh, and in the mean time, you don't have a visa anymore. You're in so-called "regulation", that is without a legal status in the USA. You're waiting for your new status, and that should not take too long as you're in the pipe-line. Just a few years.... And that enviable status brings you a whole slew of stupid indignities like the temporary exit permit. As long the paper work for the Green Card is still going, you're not supposed to leave the US, even for just a few days. Yet, you can get an exemption if you show up to queue in line at the nearest INS office at 5 o'clock in the morning, file your request in 3 copies, pay a $100 fee, and about 6 weeks later, you receive your permit to go on holidays. If one of your parents or friends has the stupid idea to die while you're under regulation, just forget about the funerals
For H1-B, it's a little more complex. The devil is in the detail of INS ineptitude. Portability already exists for H1-B
The funniest thing about that is that, in theory, what I've just mentioned should not happen as, even without a job, you can stay in the US if you have a valid offer until the new visa is issued. But, there's so much miscommunication inside the INS that the enforcement branch is very likely to ignore the pending procedure and kick you out anyway. And there's no practical appeal to an INS injunction as the INS is procurator, judge, jury and executioner all wrapped in one. The same also applies to the poor H1B sucker who has the bad idea to ask the enforcement of the wage requirements included in the H1B program. In theory, whistleblowers are protected from deportation. It's just that, practically, theory and practice have nothing in common. Don't try it !
So, is there any hope left ? A little bit of common sense.
Portability just requires the Senate and the Congress to do a little waving with their magic wand over section 8 of the Code of Federal Regulation which regulates immigrant and visitors in the US. You can keep the benefit of the on-going procedure and play the labor market as anyone else. Everybody plays along the same rules. Americans workers no longer get short-changed by competing foreign slaves and even the INS has a smile on its face, as the number of employer-sponsored applications is very likely to diminish all of the sudden. More time to read the newspapers...
By the way, if, with a slightly heavier waving of their magic wand, those guy could rewrite the whole damn thing from scratch, it would make everybody happy 'cause really nobody understand anything anymore to this bloated heap of chit of 8-CFR. Nobody is meaning the foreigners, the companies, the lawyers and the INS altogether.
Making sure that 8-CFR, reformed or not, is correctly applied is a matter of funding. And that's also just a matter of authorizing the INS to levy enough fees to pay for itself. Hi-tech workers wouldn't mind to pay as much as needed, because 1) They (we) can afford it. 2) It's perfectly logical, moral and legit to ask the foreigners to pay for themselves rather than using US taxpayer money. But probably splitting the INS in 2 would be a much better idea: an administration to deal with legal aliens and offer a real service, and a completely separate administration to kick illegal aliens out of the US. As long both functions are handled by the same administration, the priority will go to the enforcement function detrimental to the service function. By human nature, those two things cannot go together.
And, it will of course never happen, as this basic problem is already way too much for the intellect of 99.99% of US politicians, as it has, anyway, zero electoral benefit, and as it won't bring a dime for corruption^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H campaign funding... So, you alien, shut up and toil !
Now, a few words for those sympathetic but kinda short-sighted 100% pure juice American citizens whose, very likely, the father was Indian and the mother from Poland
The utility of those programs is obvious as I see everyday that, yes, even for offers with very attractive compensations, there is a HUGE shortage of GOOD hi-tech workers. I'm an electronic designer now working in a kick-ass large company and we're recruiting heavily. At least, we try. For each open position, we literally have to go thru hundreds of resume and dozens of interviews, before finding anyone suitable, if any. You could not imagine the quantity of burn-out slackers, of pretenders with phony resumes, of clueless "engineers" for whom "I used to know a guy a few cubicles away who once discussed of reading about this or that" suddenly become "oh, yes I know about this or that in full detail and I'm highly competent with this and that". It's a nightmare. And I don't count the perfectly sympathetic but highly incompetent buddies we have screen out.
It's not a matter of getting candidates: there's plenty. It's not a matter of money for paying people: there's plenty of it too. It's a matter of finding people who actually GET IT. And there aren't many left around. Pouring money on training doesn't make it either. Alas, talent doesn't come with Microsoft certification. And one talented guy, even with the most outrageous compensation, is worth way more than as many dozens of clueless techies as you want. Recruiting worldwide is not too much.
Why do you think the likes of Intel and Cisco put hundreds of millions of dollars on the table to buy little puny start-ups with strictly no products in the line of sight? It's definitely not for the business and, often, not even for the technology. It's first and foremost for the people inside.
Also, those programs are a net gain for the USA at large as they bring in qualified people without paying a dime for their education. It's really akin to direct subsidies from the People Republic of China to the US. The USA have a huge attractiveness for good techies (or I wouldn't be there) and it would be completely stupid to waste this edge.
And I won't say a word about the likes of Vinod Khosla, Andy Groove or Jerry Wang. Those guys changed the face of America and they're nothing close to a god ol' WASP.
Have a good day !
Allot of people immediately assume H1B is about cheap labor. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes its not. But the real economic reason I believe is more subtle. I think the reason the house/senate is so eager about the H1B program is less to do about the tech shortage and more to do about keeping the US software industry at the top of the world. Think about it. H1B attracts a large portion of the programmers/designers/engineers from developing countries and puts them in the US. This makes it almost impossible for anyone in a developing nation to develop good software, because their best people go to the US. I am a US citizen but I saw this first hand when I worked on a project in a developing nation. We could hardly find anyone with UNIX/C/C++ experience. When we did find someone, they always quit within a month or 2 when they got an H1B. I had to work with 5 different programmers in a year, because they all kept quitting! I think the house/senate is doing this to retard the grow of overseas software industy and I know the tech companies lobbying for more H1B's realize this as well.
polls show that 75 percent of Americans want *less* immigration. Maybe the polictal elite are out of touch.
Maybe?
It's quite amazing the amount of xenophobia I see whenever ./ deals with this particular subject. And I don't refer to morons at -1, but a lot of "Insightful" and "Informative" comments.
I've been working almost 2 years with an American company that complies with Law. From the very first day I arrived I could see my wage posted where any co-worker could complain if it was too low. And if that's the case with some companies, why is nobody filing a complain? If no gringo at all complains... well that's not Congress problem, foreign worker problem, but simply american worker problem. I mean: if your rights are being violated and you don't complain whose problem is?
Phrases like "cheap labor", "foreigners don't understand their rights", "indentured servants", "slaves from Asia"... Please! That reads more as a Goebbels' speech than true concern. It's insulting for skilled and professional people.
I have exactly the same benefits, I have never been abused or exploited in any sense. I have no doubt that there may be some companies that behave poorly, but in these 2 years and a lot of projects I've never seen that neither at my company or at our client's sites. At least for me, it sounds like xenophobic lies.
You never are deported "Instantly" as someone says. You have 90 days to get a new sponsor... if anyone takes more than 90 days to find a new job in America, that person must have a serious problem and deserves to be deported. Period.
The argument about mainframers reconverted to Client/Server or Internet developers is also a lie. It takes quite a lot of effort just to teach them how to use a mouse, not to say anything about TCP/IP, perl, HTML or RDBMS. Early retirement is always an option.
And there's a collateral effect on H1B visas: IT jobs abroad have started to be better payed, since if foreign companies want to keep at least someone to shut down the servers when everybody leaves, they have to pay more.
And a final point: in the Internet era, is quite simple to mount an offshore facility, pay 1/10 of the same salary that even an underpaid foreign worker receives and then really use "cheap slaves" and take jobs abroad. By avoiding this nasty competence, H1B program makes more sense than most people use to see.
Any nation state that allows open access to its most economically important industries is asking for trouble. Were I a spymaster for a hostile power, I would use this program to insert my agents by the score. You have to wonder why nations like China and India that so desperately need scientests and engineers within their own national economies would educate so many at such a great expense and then allow them to take off. Every aspect of Chinas society is state controlled. Believe me, if there were nothing in it for them, they would not allow it. So the real question about H1B visas are threefold: What percentage of them are spies, who do they work for and what are they after. Don't make the mistake of thinking that this stuff is out of style. Proprietary and Economic intelligence is fair game- NOT just State Secrets. The old Soviet Union wrote the book on the practice of inserting and using sleeper agents. In 1994 the House Intelligence Committee found that the Soviet KGB and GRU had more than 12,000 agents in place in the United States alone. NATO allies in Europe were also seriously penetrated. One of the Soviet Unions nastiest exports before its collapse was the training of various states intelligence apparati. Those states were in no particular order Syria, Iraq*, Iran, Cuba, Lybia, the PRC, India, North Korea, Yemen, Viet Nam, revolutionary fronts of all stripes and presuasions. There were many more. Sure the Soviet system collapsed under its own weight but their Intelligence services were world class. And their ways and means have been distributed to a host of countries that are quite hostile to the U.S. The H1B visa program is too inviting an oppertunity for spooks to pass up. ================================================ *- Saddam never trusted his Soviet trained Intel people and had most of them killed.
Is that a SCSI connector or are you just glad to see me?
..more communcation challenged individuals. On top of that, they are going to end up costing me money! Its not fair to the american working force. Period.
he's an honest thief. Funny, I'm troubled that you came here expecting to circumvent the immigrations laws, much less have children. Yet another reason why H1B needs to go.
The Game Guy
I can't believe that the US congress is buying the bill of goods the tech industry is feeding them. H1-B visas are a liscence to import economic slaves - specifically for their natural talent - sounds a little like prostitution, no? Six years is a _long_ time in the technical fields. These people can't advance very far in their careers, because after the six years are up, adios, nice seein' ya, don't let the door hit you on the ass, etc.
The most alarming thing I've heard about this is that you actually have to apply to leave the country. It's called a 'parole' and if you don't do it or forget to do it even for an hour, you can be barred from ever entering the U.S. ever again like a common criminal.
If you want a programming job, come to Canada - the pay is almost as good and you will be treated like a human being. You will have a real chance to become a citizen if you want to, and believe me, you will want to. No offense, my American friends, but your INS is killing your karma around the world.
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Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
But if people can't work in the US, they'll just work for the same companies somewhere else. Every US company I have worked for has locations in Europe and Asia. If their employees have visa problems in the US, they just move the job (and associated budget) to a different country. Welcome to the new, global economy.
Not only does the US not gain a job from preventing a skilled foreign worker from working in the US, it loses out on tax revenues. And many foreign scientists and engineers make inventions that form the seed for startups and product lines, opportunities that will then go to other countries.
Skilled immigration into the US is a net gain for Americans: it creates jobs and opportunities for everybody. America's openness to foreigners is at the heart of its current predominance and success in the world: welcome it.
Take a good look at the senate bill S.2045 in question before ranting. Even without this bill, H1Bs can be transferred across companies. With this bill, the transfer takes effect at the time of filing, making H1Bs effortlessly portable. The old "those poor slaves" argument is not relevant here.
See the other post and bill summary for more details.
But, yes, European nations generally are not easy to immigrate to. That is, many people don't meet the criteria. But on the whole, my experience has been that if someone is eligible for a work permit or immigrant visa, unlike the US, adjudication is generally fairly predictable, and efficient.
I'm not sure, but in any case many immigrants are active in closely held companies. I know numerous examples in Silicon Valley where immigrants have been instrumental in getting new enterprises off the ground.
Perhaps we should send some of these crack smoking welfare recipients to the other countries and clean out ours a bit. I'd much rather have a hard working person from India that is willing to work for a living and participate in our economy, than some trailer trash/ghetto trash type individuals that just want to pop out babies to get more money that they steal from hard working people, including the H-1B visa holding people. By the way, I don't want this to be interpreted as racist because I said "trailer trash" or "ghetto trash" as I realize that the amount of melanin in one's skin doesn't make a difference in the amount of laziness. I was just giving examples. :o)
Mas vale cholo, que mal acompañado.
Employer's cooperating is an extremely bad thing. I would say that all programmers are not necessarilly skilled labor. People can be taught to program or perform certain types of tasks very well with very little prior knowledge. I'm not talking about software developers here, more like ordinary programmers and sys admins. As these people become less and less valuable, cooperating employers will be able to pay less and less. Will the time for tech workers to unionize come soon?
Plus, try thinking about the image of a scientist in the popular culture.
;-) if not evil maniac Fu Manchu.
Scientist is Einstein who cannot make a step in the real life without help and forgets everything unrelated to the science (and does not know that Pepsi is better
With such an attitude it is not surprising that a lot of Math and Physics graduate students have Chinese, Indian or Russian surnames. The same is true about programmers too.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Right, that's immigrants - but what about people only here on a temporary visa?
I am an EFW in Canada (analog of H1B). First, there is no limit on the number of EFWs here. The requirements to get the visa are similar to the US, except that for programmers there is no need to get the job validation. The visa is ready in a month, without much paperwork. Second, I feel that EFWs are _encouraged_ to apply for immigration. If the guy already got a job in hi-tec, there is a good chance he will not go on welfare when granted permanent residence. Typically, there is no interview in such cases and the whole process takes about 5-6 months. I wouldn't say I have no bargaining power. Maybe, this is because of my specialization (ASIC designer). But also the process of changing the job is relatively simple. I don't need to leave the country and reapply from abroad.
Now, however, things are different - no, I am not talking about new web systems, but older systems - the architecture/implementation model works for newer systems ... but the fact is the "core system" (even behind the glitzy web front end ...) is the same system that has been running in 70s and 80s - companies stopped rebuilding systems as the cost to rebuild (again, speaking of large systems like financial capture, claims processing, billing systems ...) was way too prohibititive - even the companies that were forced to develop new systems - the cost was excessive far over what was alotted ...
So in the model of a system that is 20+ years old, the architecht/implementation paradigm is no longer feasible - it is like round peg into a square hole analogy as most of the business "rules" are deeply embedded into the code - as most of the original developers of the system are long gone ... much time is spent (and a lot of that is ignored in the management by spreadsheet that occurs these days ...) by "clueless" analysts who can't read code who are the "alleged" experts of the system ...
AZspot
can they speak the English?
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GetSystemMetrics(SM_SECURE) == FALSE
Item 1:
As a software dev at an internet company one of the things that I have knowingly given up is the time to have a family, or really much of an outside life.
Item 2:
Right now I am young and am getting paid very very well for what I do.
Item 2 does not automatically follow from 1. Your employers are not paying you well because you're a swell fella for working like draught animal all day and night. They pay you more because there is a shortage of people whose circumstances allow them to work this way. It's simple supply and demand.
What the employers who backed the H1-B extension want to do is to have you still work like an animal, but not to have to pay you so much because they can get cheap labor from overseas. In particular cheap workers whom can be treated like indentured servants because they can not only be fired but deported on their employer's whim. Good luck with filing that sexual harrassment suit missy -- from Bangalore.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
For each foreign engineer let in, let's say we have to ALSO let in 1 lawyer, 1 politician, 1 journalist, and 1 teacher (my, we have a shortage of those, don't we?). Watch how fast ALL H1B legislation gets repealed.
I can't believe that the US congress is buying the bill of goods the tech industry is feeding them. H1-B visas are a liscence to import economic slaves - specifically for their natural talent - sounds a little like prostitution, no?
Six years is a _long_ time in the technical fields. These people can't advance very far in their careers, because after the six years are up, adios, nice seein' ya, don't let the door hit you on the ass, etc.
Since this is what, the third? time the limits were increased, it would be apparant to ME that this isn't such a temporary demand, and your American universities are failing to get enough trained, compentent people working. (This of course probably isn't the case, as I'm sure many of you will be posting). Since the demand is no longer temporary, you have a serious problem. Would it not make more sense then given this scenario to offer qualified Engineers / CS grads whatever a green card, and allow them to become permanant citizens? Then you'll solve this "temporary" problem for good. Uh oh! You might find those temporary workers demanding more.. and you can't flush 'em down the toilet any more and blame the big bad INS. Damn.
There's another interesting arguement here too. If the demand is temporary, does that mean that all these companies are projecting a massive downturn in their own industries? (After all, they're only needing more people for 6 years). Perhaps they should adjust their stock prospectii and inform their investors of dire roads ahead - we're not going to need 200,000 workers in 6 years!
These arguements are, of course, bunk. We know why they want more H1-B's - they're cheap labour who probably don't understand their rights, regardless of quality, because companies don't want to pay for native talent. Call a spade a spade, fellows.
For the record: I'm Canadian, and can get a much more perferable visa, a TN-1 - which is a true temporary visa - if I was interested in temporary work, which I'm not. One year sounds a lot more temporary than 6 - enough time to get comfortable, start a family, and get the shaft.
You want to come to North America and you're skilled? You can get permanant residency in Canada a lot easier, and some would argue it's a lot nicer place to live.
kudos!
..don't panic
This vote is pretty much a foregone conclusion within any post-republic empire on the verge of decline. The attempt to maintain over-extended influence combines with destruction of internal reproductive viability resulting in the increased demand for external laborers. This is precisely the sort of decadence to which the latter stages of the Roman Empire succumbed.
Seastead this.
not needed. the underemployed in this country cant do the jobs?
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Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
I agree 100%. We need to get these people on green cards and eventually citizenship. In the past, immigrants were encouraged to pursue citizenship. Its time to get back to the cherished notion of an America that welcomes and nurtures immigrants.
Er actually if you had read the article I was responding to, it was a bitch that old workers couldn't get jobs because they weren't willing to work 80 hours a week. My counterargument said that in my personal experience -- and, may I add, the experience of many people I know -- working excessive hours is not necessary for success. I don't argue that mature folk might get discriminated against, but it's certainly not because they're not willing to work "Slave Labour".
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The gravitational constant of protein has changed. - Turbine
You're problem is with the slogan "Acceptable is enough"? That's the friggin' definition of "acceptable"! What is "acceptable" is "enough". How can you have a problem with this? That's like having a problem with "faster takes less time" or "bigger things take more space".
In the modern world it is cheaper to buy another server than to hire another couple of programmers; they just throw more iron into a problem to compensate for the lack of quality and efficiency.
So, the problem lies with the clueless managers and executives.
How is this a problem? Clueless managers and executives? If they've realized you can solve Problem A in two ways, either with more of thing X or with more of thing Y, and it's cheaper to do it with thing Y, that's what they should do! That's the point of managing! Those dollar signs are symbols for human work. If the work has already been done to design a faster system, and it can be leveraged via economies of scale in producing computer systems, than it should be. It's better for all of us. Why squander more money to get the same thing done? It's business, not art.
jeb.
No other industry, except agriculture, can command congress to authorize a massive increase in the supply of labor in order to supress wages. Why pick on American programmers? Why not police, teachers, lawyers? Why make the laws so byzantine that "non-immigrants" must pay off lawyers to come here. Why not expect citenship from these people? Why such high numbers? Why don't they have the right to change jobs? This law is unfair. I hope Clinton vetos it; but he promised that in 1998. He let it pass just before leaving a big fundraising trip to Silicon Valley. American college kids are not being given the proper incentives to take up programming. Why should they? Work hard for 10 years then become overpriced when a new crop of indetured servants are imported to drive down wages again? Naw, become a lawyer and make money off paperwork for immigrants. That's where the money is.
I'm not sure what the AOLserver comments were about. It's based on a Tcl interpreter, a common language. There's been fewer bugs in AOLserver and the ACS software than in any random combination of PHP and MySQL systems 1/8th of the size.
Plenty of people criticize Philip, but we try to be coherent about it.
First off, you're WAY over simplifying how easy it is to 'just move the job somewhere else' Nothing gets done quickly or easy in a corporation large enough to be international.
Also, most companies are not international enough to have offices in multiple countries WITH enough presence to actually shift major areas of their company. It also bears mentioning that few companies are actually willing to have not have their developers where they can see them. The number of companies that actually outsource development over seas is quite small and will remain that way for a long time to come.
As far as your scientist, etc startup angle - totally unrelated to the H1B arguement. Only a moron would come in on an H1B and start a company just to be deported three years later. No one has ever debated that there aren't skilled people in other countries, so I fail to see where that comment is relevant.
Skilled immigration is NOT an H1B visa, so again, your comment is not relevant. We're talking about short term cheap labor, not skilled workers attempting to get citizenship. We're talking about body shops using H1Bs to undercut my wages. So don't combine the two OR ASSUME that because I'm against H1Bs that I'm against immigration in general. That's narrow minded and moronic. I am against immigrants coming into the US and ending up on the welfare roles or committing crimes - they should be deported immediately if that happens, but that's another entire discussion and is completely unrelated to the thread.
Bottom line: a) There isn't an IT shortage (or not one that warrants importing workers) and b) it is just a way to get cheap labor into the states.
Dem's da facts.
The Game Guy
Do you _really_ think that any of the senate/house actual have that good of a handle on software development? Don't you realize just how much the industry donates to them? Sure, there are cases where H1Bs aren't used for cheap labor - the problem is, that's the exception, not the rule. You're also assuming that every H1B visa that makes it into the country is a highly-skilled coder. That's not even close to the truth. I wish the senate/house WERE smart enough to actually engage in the subtle manipulation you're suggesting. (Or maybe not - they are dangerous enough without that ability)
The Game Guy
You know, why not consider doing what people used to do in the old days: move to where the work is, or get some new skills? Help yourself, man. You are living in a capitalist country, and ain't nobody gonna lift a finger for you but you.
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NO TOUCH MONKEY!
American and Canadian companies have been moving manufacturing jobs off shore for a long time now. I guess they finally realize that it's easier and cheaper to keep the capacity here and move the jobs. You want a simple answer? Here it is. Pass legislation prohibiting any politician from sitting on the board of a publicly traded company, or acting as a paid consultant or lobbyist to same for ten years after he has been unelected or has retired. Yesss. Make them live on their gold plated pensions. This might encourage them to have the interests of the electorate at heart. Emphasis on the 'might'.
Get married? Have a kid? Need to cut back the work hours to "only" 40-50 per week as a responsibility to your family? The you get fired. Yah, that's fair. The H1B visa increase just sanctions this behaviour by employers.
If employers keep this shit up, we'll see tech unions start to form. Hate unions? Hate the corruption? Hate the politics? Well, you've got your chance to fix things NOW. Get on it. And don't whine when Union leaders are raking your business over the fire later becaue you're blowing your chance to do the right thing now.
Let's face it, the economy has moved to a global level. My company does business with people around the world every day as a matter of course. There's nothing special about it anymore.
By the same token, the people that work in the industry go where the work is. I work with Europeans who have moved to the US for jobs, Americans who previously have worked in Europe, Japan, and Australia, and so forth. I think the point is that it doesn't matter much any more - the global economy is more important that any one country's labor laws. Hopefully this move reflects that.
What this obviously saying is that inviting very well educated people in the country is bad because this will lover salaries of locals. Why this should be considered at all?
We're (ie, rich countries, primarily Americans) supposed to care about the poverty of poor countries, but concern for our own economic status makes us selfish? That's bullshit, and it's directly contradictory to YOUR primary motivation for coming to the United States -- YOUR personal financial status.
Does concern for my personal wealth make me selfish? Maybe it does, on some abstract moral scale. But then again, it also makes me virtuous in the eyes of my family and those that depend on my livlihood.
5 years as a programmer (mostly consultant) in the corporate world gave me the following insight:
Everyone's slogan is "Acceptable is enough."
This is why programming ceased to be an art and is now a simple combination of "requirements gathering, design, coding, testing". In one company they even put a wall, making different people do requirements gathering, database design and programming, often excluding actual developer (me) from the making the decisions on the early stages of the project, and holding me responsible for implementing their stupid decisions, based on the lack of understanding of what programmers do!
My rant has the following relation to the quote: in 60-th the cost of a computer was enormous comparing to a programmer's salary. Computers were not entirely pathetic, but any significant system should have been designed and implemented not just well but perfectly; otherwise, computers would not be able to handle it.
In the modern world it is cheaper to buy another server than to hire another couple of programmers; they just throw more iron into a problem to compensate for the lack of quality and efficiency.
So, the problem lies with the clueless managers and executives.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
I would appreciate if you'd quote the part of his message where he says or implies this. He said that it was VERY DIFFICULT to learn things when you can't understand the material (well, he said it was difficult for his classmates as he already knew the material). I doubt he had many options to learn the stuff other than from the class -- self-taught isn't for everyone.
All I can interpret from your reply is that anyone who mentions that someone lacks in English skills is instantly racist. Again, explain to me how my reasoning is wrong here.
To go further in your post, I don't see where he was "picking on" their accents. Big companies which deal with other countries hire people fluent in those languages to eliminate situations where the parties know each other's language technically, but can't communicate efficiently. That isn't racist, it's just saying that people have different accents and use different pronunciations which inhibit *effective* communication, verbally...
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The gravitational constant of protein has changed. - Turbine
Now what in the world was with that choice??? NPR (National Public Radio) had a really intresting discussion on one of their shows (Talk of the nation) about the H-1b visas. The first guests they had were the pro H-1b people (some of congress, heads of tech companies, etc.), and they basically said a bunch of non-detailed FUD. The other guests and other callers esentially said that this is a bad thing. Corperation said that H-1b's are not getting hired over US Citizens, and the tech callers said just the opposit. In addition, corperation said that H-1b's were getting paid the same as the US Citizens, and the tech people said nay to that too. A caller from Germany cited a similar law over there that all the German Nationals hate. I sure love how our Congress is here for us, and not for corperations!
I sure hope Clinton says nix to this.
-Mr. Macx
Moof!
******
We can worry about the pros and cons of letting a surge of technically enhanced immigrant minds to work in our high tech industry. But how do we feel about standing on the backs of developing countries? Their citizens often can come here for their higher educations, or come here with their education, get a job, become a citizen-we always discuss this situation. But consider the perspective of their homeland. If we suck in higher percentages of small nation's high tech citizens, then we are depriving them of building up their economies. How great is this for the future of the world as a whole?
Its what you learn after you know everything that matters.
I just learned that my
Ok, why is it that the only thing Republicans and Democrats can be bi-partisan about is a vote whose main impact will be to increase profits for American companies?
Seriously, even things which I look at and say, well duh, of course we want / don't want that, the vote is always close. One side makes it an issue, just so they can gain favors due later by voting for something everyone should want....
This bill is a GREAT thing for companies. This means more people brought in to a certain job market. More people means more competition, and everyone working for less money (basic economics) Companies get the job done at a lower cost, and therefore make more money.
I am not against the bill...I am just angry that elected politicians are so blatant about getting Big Business on their side, and doing nothing to offend corporations.
1. His life was better than his country of origin, where poverty was a problem.
2. He could earn money (yes, even as a slave) and eventually hope for manumission(freedom).
3. If freed (and this was his expectation), he would be a Roman citizen. This meant he would be part of the most important country in the world, be sure to have access to all the great technological advances in the Western World, could vote in elections, and have access to social welfare programs (such as the state wheat that was the right of every Roman citizen).
But slavery was risky, a slave could have a really bad owner. An owner didn't have to free him, and could have him whipped or crucified. However, despite all this, Rome did not have a shortage of well educated Greek slaves who had become slaves voluntarily.
I guess that the rewards of possibly getting Roman citizenship and a much better life outweighed the risk of getting a really horrible owner.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Basically, it depends which side you see. Probably good for the US, but bad for Canada and some other countries. Canada (I can't say for others) loses lots of highly skilled guys to the US. It's otfen not that much the numbers, but the fact that it's often the best ones. They get offered a better salary (usually 50% to 100% higher if you count the exchange rate), and leave. I don't think I'd be willing to move, even for twice the salary, but unfortunatly not everybody thinks the same.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
What you, and some other posters, don't seem to understand is that while you may work for a company that treats all of its employees with respect, and follows the spirit of the law, there are other companies that abuse the law and their employees. As an example, AIG dumped its IT staff and outsourced the work to an H1B body shop. See the testimony of Robert Reich, Secretary of Labor, at this page.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
What is an H-1B bodyshop?
The largest users of H-1B visas are bodyshops. An H-1B bodyshop is a company that specializes in providing H-1B workers to other companies. The H-1B worker is officially remains an employee of the bodyshop, but works at a company site and takes direction from the company's management, and acts like an employee in every way except that the worker gets paid through the bodyshop.
Most large H-1B bodyshops are either foreign companies or companies owned by immigrants. To quote Secretary Reich:
"First, it has become increasingly evident that the H-1B program is being utilized by some as the basis for building businesses which are dependent on the labors of foreign workers, in some cases in unfair competition with U.S. workers and those U.S. businesses that employ mostly domestic workers."
What is the "Bodyshop Loophole"?
The "bodyshop loophole" is one of the greatest source of abuse in the H-1B program. The law governing H-1B visas is carefully worded so that companies who use H-1B workers supplied through a bodyshop are not subject to the law.
Lamar Smith's H-1B bill passed by the House Judiciary Committee would have closed the bodyshop loophole. This provision disappeared in the "compromise" version of the bill that was made law.
Why use H-1B workers?
Cheap labor. The median salary for an IT worker is $54,000/year (Information Week). That is about 5 times what IT workers make in the countries where the majority of H-1B workers come from. An H-1B worker in the U.S. is invariably making more money that he would at home, even if he is paid substantially less than what an American would. For companies interested in short term cost savings, H-1B workers are attractive.
Aren't H-1B workers supposed to be paid the prevailing wage?
The first major problem with the system is that the DoL only checks the labor certification to see if the form is properly filled out. That's right. If the form is filled out correctly, the application will be approved no matter what salarly is put down.
According to the USDOL, 80% of H-1B holders earn less than $50,000/year. In 1999, the median wage for H-1B holders in computer fields was $47,000. (For comparison, half of all IT professionals make more than $54,000 according to "InformationWeek".)
Qualcomm uses the H-1B program to pay less than the prevailing wage.
"Red Herring" Editorial claims cheap labor is a valid reason for the H-1B program.
AZspot
Heh - at the risk of being inflammatory (eh, who am I kidding - it's fun :), we ought to make room for some of these "productive" immigrants by deporting parasitic (doing more harm than good) elements of society.
:)
It might be an interesting country if "citizenship" was based on merit rather than where you were born or who you were born to.
Of course, who would take the "rejects"?
A few years later I went to work for a small start-up. The owner was formerly the CTO of another company, broke off and took his circle of cronies with him - I was one of the first outside hires. Again, the pay was good but not fantastic. The owner had a slave-driver mentality -- 12 hour days were the norm. After getting dirty looks and comments made after having only worked 10 hours for a couple days in a row, I quit.
I don't mind the occasional 18-hour hacking run or firefighting session (even though the after-effects are much worse at 31 then they were at 21), but I do have a major problem with the attitude that some people take that this should be a regular occurance. Programming is a creative process. To write good code you need to be sharp, focused, and well-rested. Tired, overworked programmers write sloppy, buggy code.
Working more hours does NOT mean you get more work done. If you are working a 12 hour day, how much of that time is spent making personal phone calls, reading slashdot, or other unproductive activities? You would be more productive working a 7 hour day if you spent 6 hours of it actually writing code, with an hour reserved for ESSENTIAL meetings and e-mail. Even before I was married and a (step)parent, I considered my time with family and friends to be far more important than work.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Speaking of clarification on this issue -
All countries were settled by immigrants (except for maybe five in Central Africa.) Japan? Just ask the Ainu who's an immigrant. England? My people moved there shortly after the year 1066. Pick a country, go back into history and find the most recent influx of people - every country has one. Every country eventually decides (for one reason or another) that it doesn't want/need any more newcomers. Some day, maybe soon, the US will realize that we have plenty of people already and we don't want any more. To say the US was settled by immigrants is to say nothing useful. Of course it was, but so was every other country.
One man's immigration program is always another man's invasion. Just ask Native American/American Indians if the US was/is being settled by immigrants or by invaders. Yes, that includes you Quakers who wouldn't harm a fly.
Immigration and emigration is a zero sum game - if the US gets a new, high-quality worker then some other country just lost that same high-quality worker. Quite honestly, the other countries need these people more than we do. These are the best and the brightest and the hardest working and the most motivated. These are the people who will turn their homelands into functional democracies instead of the basket cases they must be (or these people wouldn't be so keen on coming here.)
If the US is super strong and all the other countries are weak and poor, then we just shot ourselves in the foot. It's a gobal world, people, we cannot stand alone. If India and China and Mexico are in worse shape so that the US can be in better shape, then what have we really gained? A weak Mexico exports both workers and instability. A poor India is too poor to import goods produced in the US. We want all these countries to be strong and rich and democratic and the only way that will happen is if they keep their educated workers who are determined to improve their life; so determined that if they have the choice, they are willing to come here cuz the US offers a better life. The US is rich enough and strong enough to let other countries be strong and rich, too.
The economics behind H1-B visas is very obvious - increase the supply to lower the cost. This is basic ECO 101 lecture stuff. If there were no H1-B visa holders filling these jobs, then the compensation offered to workers would rise to satisfy the demand. Business owners just realized that it was much cheaper to pay the politicians to raise the quota of imported workers rather than pay for workers directly.
Nice flamebait. Good luck
This is definately bad. First, this just goes to show you that companies aren't willing to take the time to break in a new American employee. They want ready to go cookie cutter employees. Second, this is definately bad for the employee. If this continues, there will be a shortage of jobs, and American working people might not get a job to their bills!
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
With the so-called "Brain Drain" increasing in effect over the past few years (up about 500% in the last couple of years), it would seem that making it easier to get a Work Visa is a good thing for U.S.-based companies. Not every Canadian I know is that patriotic when it comes to turning down a 50% raise (conservative estimate) to work South of the Border, but the hoops that you have to go through are always a big item in the "Con" list.
I don't know how I feel about this, actually. I heard one IT CXO-type say that the yearly output of Canadian IT grads would fit nicely into the empty positions in the U.S., so that kinda puts it into perspective. As good as some places are to live and work in Canada, the lure of big money and opportunity are pulling us (along with the rest of the world) into the gaping maw of the American high tech industries.
Unless things change to favour people staying here, I think the future looks alot like the post-Avro Arrow period. *sigh*
Get married? Have a kid? Need to cut back the work hours to "only" 40-50 per week as a responsibility to your family? The you get fired. Yah, that's fair. The H1B visa increase just sanctions this behaviour by employers.
If employers keep this shit up, we'll see tech unions start to form. Hate unions? Hate the corruption? Hate the politics? Well, you've got your chance to fix things NOW. Get on it. And don't whine when Union leaders are raking your business over the fire later becaue you're blowing your chance to do the right thing now.
The H-1B system has exhausted the entire world's supply of skilled professionals? Hardly!
At the moment, I'm a landed immigrant in Canada, so my status is definitive (that is, I could live my whole life like this). But in a couple of years I have the choice of becoming a Canadian citizen. So as far as I know, Canada doesn't have the kind of problem that the US is facing with the HB-1 visas.
However, in 1991, my parents went to work in Germany, and after 2 years, just when their situation became stable (both had jobs, good incomes, etc), they were forced to leave the country. Why? Their visa had expired, and it wasn't going to be renewed. Citizenship was completely out of the question.
So I can fully understand what these people are going through right now. They're trying to build a future in a foreign coutry (the US is just one place where this is happening), and then, after a while, they are being told that they have to leave.
And what's worse, is that as far as I understood, it's all a matter of bureucracy. It's not like in Europe, where if you're given a visa you _know_ that it's definitely not going to be renewed. Here you live with the hope, just to find out that they're out of luck.
So more visas is a goot thing, even though it's only temporary.
"Overall market performance" is a complex measure of variables, but most heavily weighted one is the purchasing power of my salary.
For the corporations that strong-armed this bill through congress, naturally the most important variable in their measure of "overall market performance" is "labor costs". For the politicians they bought, er, lobbied, the measure was "campaign donations."
When it comes down to it, there's no invalidating any of these motivations without disregarding realpolitik.
What rankles me the most, are H1Bs complaining about the justifications used to keep them out -- American citizens don't need to justify this to foreigners anymore than Russians need justify electing a drunk and then a megalomaniac their president -- it's their country, they can make their own decisions about it.
I've worked in both countries. Pay in Canada is not almost as good. It's not even close. Nominally, you may make almost the same number of dollars. But when you correct for the exchange rate and take taxes into account there is no comparison. A Canadian dollar is worth $0.67 cents US today. So multiply your Canadian wage by 2/3. Marginal income tax rates reach 50% and higher at fairly low salaries. Sales tax (GST) is much higher than US sales tax in most locales. (There's a reason that discount malls and gas stations in Buffalo and Detroit are flooded with Canadians every weekend.)
And by the way, if you are in the midst of applying for Canadian permanent residency, you have to get permission to leave Canada, just like the US. My experience is that there isn't much difference between the actual rules in the two countries. (Unless you are very rich: Canada has some rules that make permanent residency very easy and quick to get if you bring enough money along.) Canada is, however, a lot quicker about processing things.
I'm currently attending the University of Winnipeg, with my aim to get a BSc in Computer Sciences. Now, the majority of the classes are taught by a woman who's english is obviously her second language. (Think Mrs. Swan from MadTV. No joke.) Now, I know quite a few people from other countries, and I'm good friends with a few of them. The problem lies in the situation.
Right now, she is teaching us C programming. (Specifically, file reading and writing.. but she hasn't taught IF statements yet. Go figure.) Because her english is so broken, it is quite difficult to understand what she's saying, or follow her what she's saying period. And, because english is her second language, (the first being Japanese) instead of talking to the CLASS, she talks to the ceiling -- searching for each word before she says it.
For me, it's not really an issue -- I know all of the material. However, I believe it IS an issue for the students who are new to programming. If I have such a problem following her, imagine what the people who have never used an IF-THEN-ELSE statement are going through.
Now, it being a University course, you are paying for the class, and for the knowledge. But if you can't understand what the hell the teacher is saying, then what's the point? Are the other students in the class getting their money's worth? As it stands, no.
So, what can I do about it?
(Yeah, I know this is slightly off-topic, my apologies.)
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CitizenC
Just a note-- IBM had a project to computerize the flight control tower, and make things far easier and safer for the ATC's and passengers. the FAA scrapped it for being too expensive.
Since when was air safety too expensive? far cheaper than scraping concorde off the runway.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
My company gives raises based on what they think they need to pay to keep employee turnover relatively low. To determine raises, they cooperate with similar companies in the tech industry to generate a salary survey.
Since the companies will now be able to hire 200,000 more people at entry-level wages, instead of hiring/training existing (higher paid) workers, my raise will be much smaller than it would have been.
Thank god for the government...the unskilled and uneducated have seen decreased wages over the last 25 years due to competition from overseas, so lets do the same to the highly skilled and educated.
Oh, and while we are at it, let's send the trained and skilled foreign employees home after 6 years, to ensure that we will have strong foreign competition!
Well lets see, from a pointy haired bosses perspective, it really is a good thing. "We can get this ONE ivy league student for the cost of 3 luxury cars per year or we can get these THREE mentally disabled programs for the cost of a 1984 pinto. hmmmm."
Yes that is a horible way to look at it, but you do have a point that the market will now get even more flooded. BUT, I am also under the opinion that we will probably see more good, quality people come from this.
H1-B holders cannot hold an ownership stake in the company which sponsors them. In practice, this would tend to exclude H1-Bs from founding startup ventures, as startups tend to take all your time.
This happens to be somethng I feel strongly about. If it happens to come out seeming like flamebait, then fine -- I guess it's flamebat.
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I am the dot in slashdot.org
Which is why George W. stresses his "ability to lead" in every speech he makes.
Yep, there are many good CEO and 1st-Line folks, but .... Management needs to control, many good hackers and techs are being paid as much or more than many layers of management personnel. Management personnel (BS Experts) in the past had a job forever, now due to technology mediocre "BS experts" are a dime a dozen and can be replaced without impact to the bottom line. The world of the mediocre "BS experts" (CEO to 1st Line) no longer have their comfortable lifetime career. These pitiful type people can not take the burden of blame for not making the bigger pay check or screwing up a project that hackers and techs tried valiantly to help save, but failed due to a misguided management decision.
Maybe the H1-B visas concept is a way that the mediocre "BS experts" (CEO's and Politicians) hope to solve ghost, social, and/or cultural problems that are just to personal for the country (US) to address with better plans, education, management, and goals.
I sometimes feel management would fire (all the best) half the hackers and techs (Programmers/Engineers) in a company to show those uppity prima-donnas who's the wind-breaking boss in charge.
H1-B visas concept appears to be one of those mediocre "BS experts" solutions to a none-problem or a national systemic problem. In other words nothing is solved. Then again maybe it is another corporate welfare program.
Reality is a self-induced hallucination.
It has been "demonstrated" by some (if you believe their numbers rather than industry's) that the IT worker shortage is fake.
My take is that, regardless of the absolute truth, the companies involved do actually believe that there is an IT shortage, and they want something done about it. Remember that a single company can only find so many potential employees, and more and more it's becoming that the really good ones are not from the USA.
I'm not laying the blame on the US education system or anywhere else - who knows what the absolute truth is, or what each CEO of each IT company truly believes. But this is what I believe the perception to be inside the industry.
Like I say, point me to these H1-B workers who are on 1/3 of the salary of a US equivalent. Prove me wrong.
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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It's a
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It's a
-- Danny Vermin
You got it wrong, it isn't slavery it is indentured servitude. Kinda like a car lease! Get high skilled workers, that really can't get promoted to far, kick them in the ass on the way out, and better yet no ballon payment! Well, that is how my boss looks at it....
time to get a new job....
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, although I think you are, but what's important here is that you should be consistent in your views. Fine, you don't like the idea that company hires cheaper coder from india - that's your right. But, stop buying *anything* made outside, because if you do, you are doing the same thing you are blaming congress for. Also, if your point of view prevails, we should also stop all exports - never sell another thing outside, because by doing it we're talking food from foreign workers kid's mouth - and that wouldn't be fair if we forbid them to do the same thing to us. So, how much do you pay for gas for your car? Expect to pay much more, perhaps 50 times more when we stop buying it from overseas. And so on. In general,
-- ATTENTION: do not read this sig. It doesn't say much.
One really insidious piece of the legislation appears to be the part which exempts holders of MS or better degrees from the cap. Now it's just a piece of paper.. but well, I've always wanted to learn about wavelets anyway.
As many people continuously point out, these H1-B workers are essentially indentured labor. They can't switch jobs, they can't ask for more money or more benefits, and they can't complain about working conditions or labor law violations because if they tried to do any of those things, they would be fired and deported instantly, and never be able to come back, since no other company would touch them after an incident like that. Meanwhile, the companies that hire H1-B workers are making out like bandits by paying them less and working them harder than any of their American counterparts, who actually enjoy some bargaining power (being able to swtich jobs, demand better pay and benefits, etc.)
Yes, yes, all the apologists are going to immediately chime in and say that employers are "required" to pay the same rate for H1-B workers as for their American counterparts, but everyone knows that's bullshit. There is basically zero enforcement of that rule. Employers can and do get away with paying far less than they would normally have to for the amount of work they are getting out of these people. And they can't compain either, because (as mentioned before), they are at the mercy of the company that is employing them. They would be fired and sent home immediately if they ever spoke up about the abuses.
This is exploitation, pure and simple. Why do you think companies push so hard for these increases? In American business today, there's a simple rule. If an industry wants something, that means it's going to screw people over. So don't give it to them!
Free Hans!
Folks,
haven't we learned from the current gas problem here in the U.S. that too much reliance on products and services from outside sources hurts us.
Think about this the more foreign workers we bring into this country the more reliant we get on them. Then, at a future date in time when a whole slew of those visa's expire there will have to be a mass exodus of foreign workers. (But, of course the corporations will bitch and whine and get them extended.) Also, the more foreign workers brought in the less Americans will be needed by big corporations to do the work.
This country needs to start being less reliant on other countries for goods and services and start doing things ourselves. I know this is a strange idea, but we did do this at one point in time in our history. Look at this country WWII and prior. I know someone will mention the Chinese, Irish etc.. that worked on the railroads, and the black slaves that were brought into this country to do the slave labor on the plantations. But, think about this, this is EXACTLY the same thing that is happening with H1-B's! Money grubbing entreprneurs(corporations) using cheap labor. If these companies would be fair with the labor in the U.S. (pay fair wages, fair benifits etc..) and stop relying on cheap foreign labor; more Americans would do an honest days work for an honest days pay. (We also need to get rid of the organized crime run unions! - Yes they are run by organized crime - if you believe the BS your union tells you your a fool. Do the research!)
Don't vote Bush, and don't vote Gore!
Vote Harry Brown and run your OWN life!
The Truth is a Virus!!!
yeah yeah!
all i do is wait around all day at work and wait for something to piss me off so that i can sue!
please!
send these workers back to their own damn countries!! let them work hard and pay taxes in their own countries! we don't need that kind of work attitude in this country! not when we have people getting married and having children! oh no!
why are there so many VICTIMS in this profession already? damn! you people are sick! nobody MADE you get married and have kids... stop bitch'n when your CHOICES limit your abilities to work. you can always go on welfare and let these HARD working people pay your sorry ass way!
loading the GLOCK
Yeah, maybe you can find and keep a job. Good for you. But let's take a look at the bigger picture...
These people are willing to work (or perhaps forced to work) for one third the salary of a U.S. worker. The reason this was voted in is because the high-tech industry wants to flood the job market and lower the wage scale, hence cutting costs. Why voted in by such a high percentage? Because both the democrats and the republicans are in bed with Big Business, and the high-tech industry is no exception. So, sure, you might be able to find a job, if either a) it's worth it to Big Business to pay you 3x more, or b) the wage scale has lowered enough so that it's affordable to hire you.
I have a feeling we are going to be seeing a lot more immigrant "code monkeys", but I wouldn't go so far as to say that all immigrants are as lacking in skill as you make them out to be. That's just unfair. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them are better educated than we are -- the U.S., you remember, has a piss-poor overall education system. It may just be that language and cultural barriers are clouding Americans' perceptions of them; I don't know.
Personally, I think the only way to fix this is to get large numbers of people to not vote for (as Ralph Nader and others call them) the Republicrats. Vote libertarian, green, populist progressive, whatever, but don't settle for the status quo.
There is always this misunderstanding that H1B is only for temporary work.
On the contrary, it is explicitly used as part of the immigration process
for skilled workers. It currently takes years to get an employment-based
green card, so they need a H1B to stay and work in the meantime. That's why
the H1B visa explicitly allows dual intent. More relevant to the topic, this
senate bill would also streamline the green card process for H1B holders, in
addition to cutting immigration backlogs in general.
From your perspective, this bill may have a negative in raising the number of H1B workers. But check the details. In addition to the quota, this bill improves the portability of H1Bs (the transfer becomes effective at the time the application is filed) and green card applications (your I-140s travel with you with no time penalty), increases funding for INS adjudications and seeks to sharply reduce the backlogs. In other words, it addresses all your demands except for the part about splitting up INS. But then again, Bush has pledged to do just that, so just make sure the right guy gets elected.
This would not be such a problem if they would not be clueless about what my job is since it was my responsibility for making the deadlines; the programmer is the last in the development chain.
Another thing is that in such a small team (1 analyst, 1 data architect, 1 programmer + 1 clueless PHB) I become a quality control for them since I'm their customer.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
For us, however, it's bad, since our wages *will* be driven down, and it will become a little more difficult to find a job.
I would have to agree, anyone who can't learn how to communicate with their peers by the time they need to get a job is in big trouble; good communication skills and English would obviously be necessary for a job in America.
For that matter, anyone who sends e-mail with Microsoft Outlook or sends out their resume as an attached MS-Word document, or develops web pages with a Microsoft product without demoronizing it first *definitely* has a problem communicating with the rest of the (not entirely owned by Microsoft yet) world.
Unless, of course, you *like* broken MIME attachments, unreadable bloated binary OLE streams of text with attached random hard-drive contents, and undefined UNICODE characters from non-standard character sets, and pandering unsolicited e-mails, or mistake them for "Innovation"...
Why can't we have a country of standards-compliant people? If we could do that, I'd break ties with Microsoftia, and move to RFCville, right across the way from POSIX-land.
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
The market hasn't been too kind to PC, communication, and InterNet companies lately. With 600,000 H-1Bs here already and an equal number to come the next three years, should be an interesting competative time for programmers in the USA.
Gimme a break, English is my second language ;-)
Acceptable means that users still can do what they need even if that takes hours and the program occasionaly crashes (I have a couple of applications that I've rewritten in mind).
As for the X vs Y, look at my reply to dash2.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
who R you?
.
#kuro5hin on slashnet.org
-- dieman - Scott Dier
I don't know if 180K H1B visas is too few or too many, but facts are facts, and it bothers me that so many moderators rank the "no such shortage" posts so highly, when actual objective measures to the contrary are readily available...
I think Microsoft(tm) acquired the(tm) trademark to Really Bad Thing(tm)recently in a complicated stock-for-free-software(tm) deal with the(tm) Department of Justice (discussed recently on another newsgroup). It(tm) so happened that the(tm) Director of the(tm) U.S.(tm) Office of Trademarks and Copyrights was at the(tm) same meeting and remarked that she was several versions behind with Word(tm) for Windows(tm) and Excel(tm) for Windows(tm). Mr. Bill, President of Microsoft (tm), offered "free upgrades for you and all your friends" in exchange for certain trademarks, and the(tm) rest is history.
:) (tm)
:) (tm).
So, be very careful when using the following trademarked words(tm) or phrases:
Bad Thing(tm),
Really Bad Thing(tm),
Good Thing(tm),
Really Good Thing(tm),
Wicked Good Thing(tm),
United States(tm),
software(tm),
the(tm),
it(tm),
To prevent legal recrimination by Microsoft(tm)'s large legal force (42.25% of all practicing lawyers work for Microsoft(tm)), it(tm) is recommended that you include a check for 1 dollar per unlicensed use of any of Microsoft's trademarks.
You can include your check with your next upgrade order.
wink, wink, nudge, nudge
+ Origin: best of usenet humor
(2:50/128.0@fidonet)
So when you break down your salary into an hourly wage, what do you really earn for your time?
If your salary is $60,000 US a year, but you work 60 hours a week, then you're really only being paid the same for the work you do as someone making $40,000 to work 40 hours a week. You're just working a lot more. If you're willing to sacrifice your time for $$, then sure it's a good deal for you and for the company, but remember what your time is worth, and bill accordingly when you start.
"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
To all oldies, Get along with Change, which unfortunately is the only constant. Industry changes, situation changes, the world changes. Look at Great Britain today and if at you have read any history, what it was earlier on. Its all simple. Live up to the requirement or DISAPPEAR :-)
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I think it's a bad thing. Not because I'm anti-immigration, because I'm not. I think that the US should accept many more immigrants for permanent residency (green card) than it does - Canada, 1/10th the size, accepts more.
...
What this is, essentially, is a ploy by companies to work someone through their technical lifespan, then discard them. After six years, the new technologies that they learned in school are aging if not stale. Rather than retrain, they can send them back to India/Indonesia/China/Russia
(rant on)
This is one of the great failings of the IT industry. Companies should be recruiting for fundamentals of programming and software engineering. Instead, they recruit for individual technologies, many of which can be learned in a matter of weeks by a competent professional. Programmers bet into this by concentrating on technology rather than proficiency or professionalism.
Where programming was a legitimate profession twenty-odd years ago, and done by well-educated professionals. Like other professionals, programmers should be able to ply their trade around the world. The current-mind set (which promotes hare-brained schemes like this) risks turning it into a trade, where bare competence on skills rather than problem-solving and thinking is emphasized.
When you hire a professional, you establish a relationship with them and it's upheld at both ends. You can't hire professionals as a bulk commodity. Unfortunately, large companies and legislators alike seem to think that they can import them as a bulk commodity like so many widgets. No wonder so many software projects fail.
(rant off)
A poster above made the argument that an H1-B was a preliminary to him receiving a green card. Good for him. However, this doesn't necessarily generalize. Do many H1-B recipients receive a green card?
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There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
Because H-1B people lack the fundamental freedom to vote with their feet. They can't change jobs. THIS is why corporations are so hot and sweaty about the labor shortage. They mean there is a shortage of labor they can exploit unfairly.
Put them on the same terms as anyone else -- ie, they can go anywhere they like, work for anyone they want -- while they're here and I'm all in favor of unlimited visas. People are a country's best resource, and I'm not afraid to compete toe to toe with anyone from anywhere -- as long as the contest is fair.
If the slaves, er, H-1B visa people are set free and the corporations STILL gripe about a shortage, then let's raise the cap. As is, a huge chunk of the labor isn't free to move around... so of COURSE there is a labor shortage. Duh.
Yeah, right "US for American citizens", "Germany for Germans", oh wait a minute...
Granted, I don't work in a tech hotbed (Newark, DE) or have super skilled knowledge (Access, VB, SQL), but I was essentially out of work for the past 3 months. When I finally got a job, half the workers there are foreign - and they're applying for another H1-B. I'm sure this maybe great at an overall level - but it really sucked to be out of work. How about helping an American citizen get a job first?
The perception of reality is more important than reality itself.
A bigger shortage of talent, will mean that management has to think twice before telling their developers to get to work on some half baked idea. I'm sure more than half the work done at the moment is wasted in cancelled projects, or in useless end products.
Limited resources would encourage better allocation.
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
Glad to see that outsourcing has risen to the national level. Why work to improve something from the inside when you can quickly bring in a cheaper workforce? Why train when you can hire a consultant? At some point it will be impossible to bring anyone in from the outside because we'll all be insiders. Yet, somehow, no one will have any loyalties...
Yet you manage to make two mistakes in that single sentence...
Many of the goals of this program are quite insidious...The only positive benefit is long term relationships between the technologically apt people from outside the US and those inside. This is a good thing.
It also gives people a chance to save some bucks...many more opportunities here for high tech jobs.
But the dark side...all the lies used to prop this thing up...false employment statistics, targeted wage controls...all this is rather blatant proff of how sickeningly corrupt the USA is.
My solution is raising the cap on immigration...permanent immigration...and making it illegal to discriminate against people on the basis of wealth or education.
This way, we'd end the abuse, and get lots of doctors, airline pilots, politicians, lawyers, bakers, workers...people from all walks of life. We'd even get some great progammers.
The whole H1B program is a sickening scam, both on US citizens -- due to the lies used to support it -- to the US programmers who are getting their wages and status held down -- and to the visa holders, who work for cheap, get no assurance they can stay, and the average american who is paying more than they should have to for many union protected fields.
Not to mention brain-draining the country of origin.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Do you know how much money it costs a company to bring someone over on an H1-B? For a company, it is vastly cheaper to find someone in the USA than it is to get someone from abroad.
Anyway, if you're an American programmer and you can't get a job, chances are that you're the one with the communication problem. I mean, seriously, are there qualified US programmers here who can't find a job?
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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It's a
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It's a
-- Danny Vermin
How about asking her if she needs some assistance with some of the phrases? Or would that be too much to ask of you?
No, you'd rather watch her fumble around for words while you get a good laugh out of it.
Its a big world - guess what - Not everyone speaks English.
GET USED TO IT.
If your looking for a reason our country has to look outside its boarders for hi tech computer jobs, look at the condition of schools in our country. I am a high school teacher and I see the lack of technology and use of in our schools everyday. Washington brags about having an internet connection in every classroom, but what good does it do if the teachers do not know how to use the? Most second grade students know more about computers and the internet than teachers at all levels. How does our country expect to fill the hundreds of thousands of hi tech compter jobs when the people tasked with educating our youth know less than the people they are teaching. If we want to fill the holes we have in this industry, we must begin with educating our educators, making them computer literate, and teaching them how to use technology in their classrooms. I encourage every student I have to go to college and study computer science or something computer related. I show them what I make and then I show them what my buddies from school are making. Guys that had literally half my gpa are making three times what I am! Until we can fill these need ourselves we are forced to turn to other countries to make up for the shortcomings in our educational system.
...but not every american techie lives near sanfran, new york, washington...i had to really look for my job. more companies should expand into areas where there are more americans that can do the work already, rather than going cheap and hiring foreigners...
i dunno, just a thought
lets start with the politicians, then move to the CEO's, then just to be sure, anyone who golfs.
all golf courses can then be converted to another more productive use; skate parks!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The real reason the Avro Arrow was cancelled boiled down to two issues: the Canadian government was committed to produce war planes (I think there were mostly CF-100s) for the Korean war, and C.D. Howe wanted to focus on getting production of those planes up to speed.
He didn't want to "waste" resources on the development of two of Canada's finest achievements in aerospace: the C-102 Jetliner and the CF-105 Arrow. (the Jetliner was a greater loss to Canada than the Arrow, IMHO, but I won't get into that here).
The other reason was that the head of A.V.Roe refused to accept a scaled-back project, and demanded an all-or-nothing solution. So he got nothing. And so did the rest of us.
Good thing for the American space program too, cos without all those Canucks, their program would have had a tough time tackling the myriad problems involved in pushing the aerospace envelope well past the "aero" threshold.
I'm not sure how you go from a blanket generalization to "political fact", but don't try to bait this Tory.
I don't kiss American ass, eh? I prefer to French with Asians.
It is much more economical to give people intensive courses in Chakra or Dubai, then pay them $80K/yr to work 80hr weeks, than educate lazy Americans at expensive institutions like Stanford and Berkeley and then pay them $100K/yr to work 60hr weeks. And the foreigners don't complain too much, rarely know how to sue you over workplace issues, and will probably eventually leave the country -- indeed, if there is a dispute and you have to fire them, they have to get their little asses out of our country in 10 days!
And now that there are more of them, but the same number of green card slots, I bet they'll work even harder! Aren't they wonderfully competitive and productive, those little slant-eyed ants, those red-skinned wonders! Model minorities! Oh, how I love the dollars they produce! Oh, how many slow Americans can I fire tommorrow?
Ah, it is a wonderful day, to be an entrepreneur in America, and an even more wonderful time, to be a Company!
P.S. -- Must remember to send in that 'campaign donation' tommorrow!
Did I not mention I'm from Canada's East coast? English is practically a second language there, the first being gibberish.
J
I've been looking for my first IT position since March, but, as a US citizen, I want more money for less hours than many people here on an H-1B visa. So I'm SOL. No, I have no experience. I can't *get* any experience. McDonalds, here I come!
I have a feeling we are going to be seeing a lot more immigrant "code monkeys", but I wouldn't go so far as to say that all immigrants are as lacking in skill as you make them out to be.
Just one question -- what's the point of keeping them in (say) India? Are you not aware of the overseas subcontracting which simply means they'll depress wages indirectly?
If we don't let them in the U.S., they're just going to be working for U.S. companies through subcontractors in India and as immigrants in places like Canada, Ireland, and France.
The result? The U.S. government doesn't get to tax immigrant incomes, our corporations suffer compared to European corporations, and our workers still have wage depression.
-- Roberta Derbyshire
Health costs have experienced an average annual 20% inflation over the last 2 years. How come foreign doctors are not allowed to practice in the U.S.? Obviously there is a shortage of doctors, given the insane prices of health care. Could you imagine importing 100,000 Indian doctors? Of course not. It's inconceivable. But why? The reason is simple. Doctors are, and always have been, much smarter than engineers. They achieved GUILD STATUS over 100 years ago and are capable of protecting themselves from the evil machinations of the lawyers that run our government. Engineers are too stupid to organize guilds to concentrate their political will. Heck, auto workers are smarter than engineers in this respect. You get what you deserve, for a lack of political spine. How many engineers called or wrote their congressmen to protests this sell-out? When the current tech mania subsides, which will be in the next two years, there will be a horrendous glut of technical workers. At that point, 35-50 year old engineers with good degrees from good schools will only be able to find shit corporate back office IT jobs for $50K. Cops where I live make more than $50k. Until engineers acquire a whiff of political savvy, the profession will always be a ghetto.
Good point.
Only on slashdot will you find an article about Visas turn into a rabid, frothing, exaggerated diatribe against Microsoft.
"Smart companies save money by deploying MySQL instead of Oracle." - slashdot post
The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
- Emma Lazarus
A good percentage of you are Americans because your ancestors came here in search of oppertunity. Never forget that.
-----------
end communication
(Oops, accidental submittal. sorry for the dupe)
A good answer to this would be to stop corporate subsidies -- the U.S. government actually *PAYS* multinational corporations to exploit foreign labor, in the form of tax breaks, etc. That's why I said we should vote those losers in office out! =)
--
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
And the point is ...
... you better damn well be proficient in communicating with the students in the expected language of the country.
If you're in a position to teach
Imagine you were an American professor who wants to teach in France. You have poor French skills. Would you really try and teach the students there *BEFORE* improving your French skills?
I can't learn from a teacher that I have to spend 95% of my mental cycles deciphering the words they are saying.
Give me a break. Don't waste students' time.
_Adam Poulos;
I LOVE YOU
great comedy company.
I guess old folks who haven't bothered to keep up on their skills, or who refuse to work under younger bosses or new methodologies, are being discriminated against. Damn those whipper-snappers!
--
--
The gravitational constant of protein has changed. - Turbine
Who may join the Telecommunication and Computer Workers Union? Any worker in the industry is welcome. Workers engaged in the installation, maintenance and operation of all forms of radio, television, telephone, cable, internet and satellite communications are part of the industry as well as computer programmers and operators. Technologies as recent as wireless data transfer and as old as telegraph communications make up the industry, as well as everyone in between. Together these different types of communication and information transfer form the network of communications that can keep us in contact with each other (if controlled and operated by the workers of the world) or keep us from contacting each other (if controlled by the bosses for profit).
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
I'd much rather lurk than post but there are so many misconceptions about the whole H1B/green card situation that I decided to break my own rule to try and clear some of them up. For the record, I am from India and am in the process of going from H1B status to permanent resident status. I have gone through the H1B/green card process myself and know several hundred others who also have - so I feel qualified to talk about it.
Misconception 1: H1B workers are poorly paid - This is most definitely not true. The law states that you have to pay them equally and usually they are paid equally. I know people in all sorts of tech-related jobs in various different parts of the country and the general impression I get is that the majority of them feel that they are paid as well as their non-H1 colleagues and get more-or-less the same raises and promotions. There are exceptions but they are not as many as some would have you believe. The one thing that H1B workers find very hard to do is to get much higher than deserved salary from their employer by threatening to leave - which brings me to the next misconception
Misconception 2: H1B workers cannot change jobs. This is not true. H1B workers can change jobs but the process is complex because the new employer will have to file H1 paperwork and the the employee cannot start working in his new job till the process is over. Nowadays this takes 3-4 months. Another reason preventing this from happenning is that changing jobs stops the green card process and it has to be started again from the beginning by the new employer. The whole green card process can take 4-5 years - so people are discouraged from changing jobs. It wasn't always like this - in the early 90s, H1B processing used to take 1 month and the green card process would take between 1.5 and 2.5 years. Some efforts are being made to bring processing times back to those levels again. The bill that recently passed (I think) lets an H1B worker join his job once the papers are filed (and not after the processing is complete). A couple of years ago the INS introduced new procedures that could cut the green card processing time to about 3 years. These new rules went into effect in 1997 and a lot of people who have started green card processing after that are practically done by now. This makes changing jobs a lot easier for an H1B worker - it isn't as easy as it should be but it is a huge improvement from what it was not too long ago.
Misconception 3: H1B workers are forced to work ridiculously long hours - This is utter nonsense. I know a huge number of people who are currently on H1B visas or were until not too long ago - these people have qualifications ranging from 1 or 2 years diplomas to PhD degrees; their jobs are equally varied and so are the places where they work. The vast majority work no harder then their colleagues. The ones in start-ups put in 80 hour weeks and the ones in universities put in 30 hour weeks
Just my $0.02
... replace older working American programmers with cheaper H1-B Visa programmers ...
Yes, it is happening ... the shop I work for is now evaluating proposals from several bodyshops - some offshore, some on-shore but still comprised mostly of H1-B imported foreign programmers ... the employees are urged to seek "management" path careers as the trend is to farm out the coding (both support and development to "bodyshops") ... and this has already occurred for many of the departments of the very large company I work for ... it is getting hard to communicate in English - for a global firm that predominately does mostly U.S. business ...
How is it these clowns (the US House/Senate think they are doing high-tech industry good by this action? They are pandering to the lords of industry ... it sucks ... I will find work - even now, my management is urging the bodyshop to retain some of the "professionals" who know the system well to enable a smooth transition and ensure the same quality support ...
Make no mistake about it - this is not about a shortage of programmers - it is 100%, absolutely about cheap labor ... and the management in my company makes no bones about it - as their #1 goal is to reduce costs 10% per year in providing systems support/development for the business units ...
I am so angry ... I have nothing against the talented professionals that wish to perform their craft ... but call a spade a spade ... this charade is infuriating ... I wish there was something I could do - I am only one voice, but as it happens to others, they will feel the same way though most of the country probally could give a rat's ass ...
These people (US House/Senate, lords of industry, etc ...) are taking the bread out of my children's mouth ... I urge all to read Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Labor Shortage
And I'll sign off with some words from Phillip Greenspun in his famous book on web publishing ...
AZspot
Several threads have spoken of H1B holders making $30,000. How many people are you speaking of, and where do they live in the U.S. ? H1B applications are not cheap. Companies can make mistakes, but tend not bringing in people who are under-qualified slackers. All of the H1B applications are required to list the salary that the companies will pay that applicant. Write to your Congressman to see if the average salary (or the range of the salaries) for approved H1B applications is available in the public record. Enough people seem to be interested in this figure. Two posts above mine makes it sound like "little Timmy won't get his soup tonight because daddy can't work in I.T." Where is this person living ? My apologies to anyone named Tim. There are thousands of unfilled I.T. jobs all over the U.S. That is why they are increasing the quota (and doubling the fee). If you really are both unemployed and qualified in an I.T. position, you should be planning on moving to get a new job. I could see if you were making cars or other union job, but sorry, not for an I.T. job. If you are blaming foreigners for taking away your job based around out of date technology, sorry again, you will just have to retrain for something current. Migrations to take new jobs have been happening in the U.S. for longer than the U.S. has been a nation. GET USED TO IT.
Why? Most big companies are multinational: if you want to hire person X, you hire person X. She may have to work in the London office, rather than the New York office, but they still get hired. Every arbitrary barrier (e.g. work restriction) imposed by a random government just raises the cost of doing business and making products... lawyers, video conferences, transatlantic phone calls, and flights to Tokyo are just money spent to reduce friction. That money could be better spent on salaries and research if the government was not interfering.
Secondly, if you're paying an employee in say Singapore, he is taxed by Singapore and spends the bulk of his income in Singapore. Why not just let him live here, contribute to the US tax base, and spend his money in US stores?
Using H1Bs policy to control multinational hiring practices will be as successful as using US copyright law to control peer-to-peer multinational file sharing networks. It is a blunt instrument that encourages the users (in this case corporations) to route around the damage. One day you wake up and find you've hurt your own tax base without any significant economic benefit to yourself.
I am not a xenophobe, I have no problem with people from other countries comign here. But I've seen with my own eyes, these H1-B workers who I have worked alongside of are indentured servants. Why do you think they are sponsored by a company? That company pretty much owns them as long as the H1-B visa lasts. These cheap companies never pay for training or overtime and then turn around and whine that their is not enough skilled workers (who they, of course, want to hire incredibly cheap). I would also say working alongside people who can be deported at the snap of management's fingers is no joy either. By the simple laws of supply and demand, H1-B workers keep tech employees salaries down. I don't think having to work alongside slaves from Asia is helping anybody out, except the top management and rich investors. Certainly not the engineers in the trenches
I guess old folks who haven't bothered to keep up on their skills, or who refuse to work under younger bosses or new methodologies, are being discriminated against. Damn those whipper-snappers!
--
--
The gravitational constant of protein has changed. - Turbine
--
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
Duh!
Guess what, Linus is from Finland and he is in the USA on a H1-B (unless he now has his green card)
dumb ass
D.
Actually, especially with the politicians & CEOs (and similar types), instead of kicking them out of the country, I want them around so that I can keep an eye on them and make sure they're not brewing up big trouble for the rest of us. If we kick them out of the country where we can't keep an eye on them, you just know that they'll be back as tin-pot dictators at the head of a brainwashed army of some sort.
I'd much rather put them into many "Big Brother"-style (which is amusing, considering the proposed occupants) houses & have them under constant surveillance, where the general population can watch them in morbid fascination & come to conclusions about how low elements of the human race can sink.
I am probally going to work overseas anyways. Pay is better. Quality of Life is better. Hell even the first $60k you earn is tax free. More people come here to work.. more people should go overseas to work so you wont pay as much taxes. You dont pay taxes.. the Govt earns less.. if for every H-1B that comes here if one person in the tech industry goes overseas and doesnt pay taxes on the first $60k the govt will see its not worth it to drive GOOD american workers away.
I was on an H1-B until October 1999 and had to leave the US after my 6 years ran out. I am currently working in Japan for a multinational investment bank.
Here are the points I'd like to make:
1. H1-Bs are issued only after the government determines that the salary of the prospective employee is at least equal to a baseline "fair" salary for that region. In most places, this minimum would be around "40,000 - 45,000 USD, for a person with say 3 years of experience. I was earning 6 figures while working in the northeast and 80+K while in Florida.
2. There is a problem with job mobility while on an H1 visa. However, things are now much better after a rule was passed allowing an employee to join a new company as soon as the visa transfer request is filed, rather than only after approval has been obtained.
3. There are unscrupulous companies out there that bring people in by exploiting loopholes in the law. These people don't stay with those companies too long however, once they realize the market situation.
4. The biggest hold employers have over H1-B visa holders is the green card. If a scheme were brought about where green cards were issued not as a result of employer sponsorship, but rather by the employees petitioning the INS on the basis of their own merit, with green card processing being independent of current employment location, this hold would be removed and H1 visa holders would be equal in all respects to their American colleagues.
5. The time limit on H1s is a detriment to the US, in my opinion, as all that is being acheived is that highly skilled people are leaving the US workforce for other countries. It is, however a boon to other countries facing a skilled manpower crunch (as in my own case, where I found employment in Japan.)
--- I'd love to go out with you, but I have to study for a Turing test.
Yes it is on topic.. look at this forum. half the dam posts are about foreigners taking American jobs and older people whining about they cant get a decent job, foreigners coming in for cheaper wages, etc. If you are the best at what you do in your company then noone in their right mind is going to get rid of you. The market place is two strong right now to even find half way decent people let alone good ones. Maybe it is different in programming. But as an admin.. I get a minumum of 4 recruiter calls a day on my answering machine. Introducing additional h1b visa holders into the work force will only screw those who dont keep their skills strong. Only the strong surivive in a comptative marketplace. If people want companys to pay their salaries then they need to show value for the company's money.
And spelling skills = word processor
Malice95
[20:54] *** CmdrTaco (malda@208.163.7.164) has joined #kuro5hin [20:54] Mediaone is good about picking up the phone... but then they just drool on the receiver. The Time Warner crew never picks up the phone... but when they do... they bark into it. [20:54] hehe [20:54] yeah [20:54] * CmdrTaco wanted to fuck with dickhead a bit. [20:54] Oh.. this is just wonderful.... [20:54] m1 level two rules [20:54] HAHAHA [20:54] Christ.. it never ends... [20:55] Sig:I edited your little retirement rant, but didn't save it. I figured that'd be to mean. [20:55] right, who hasn't been here yet today... [20:55] It was so factually flawed, I was laughing my ass off. [20:55] PAGING JON KATZ [20:55] Here it comes... [20:55] Signal_11 - i took 45 min once to convince a level1 tech how dhcp works [20:55] You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. [20:55] hmmm [20:55] ZEELAND, MI 49464 [20:55] Katz don't IRC so good. [20:56] It's so nice to see you hold me in such high regard. [20:56] * harb blinks. [20:56] we need a complete set though. we're only missing him and hemos, i think. [20:56] What the monkey? [20:56] MALDA SUCKS! [20:56] ;) [20:56] <CmdrTaco> Sig:I don't really care about you. You just annoy the hell out of me. [20:56] <CmdrTaco> <-- Sucks. [20:56] <harb> Uhm.. [20:56] <Signal_11> You slam me behind my back, diss me, and now you just come in here and do it some more. [20:56] <CmdrTaco> <-- and used to it by now. [20:56] <Dolgan> is someone logging this? [20:56] <harb> Maturity is fun. [20:56] <Signal_11> Yet you don't care? [20:56] <dieman> http://www.ringworld.org/~dieman/lwce/pics/malda-s ucks.jpg [20:56] <CmdrTaco> Sig:Its fun ;) [20:56] * DJBongHit smacks CmdrTaco [20:56] <Signal_11> Just leave me alone, Rob... I've had enough for one week. [20:56] <qslack> Damn that's the real taco! [20:56] <CmdrTaco> Sig:Dark Angel hasn't started yet. [20:57] <CmdrTaco> DJ:At least past that over here. [20:57] <DJBongHit> lol [20:57] * DJBongHit passes CmdrTaco the bowl [20:57] <harb> Blah. [20:57] * harb detaches from lameness. [20:57] <CmdrTaco> Sig:I've had to deal with your childish crap for 3 years. You can handle 10 sentances of IRC slapping ;) [20:57] <Signal_11> I've had to deal with you for alot longer than that! [20:57] <CmdrTaco> "Slashdot sucks. I hate you rob. I am the reason for all things good and bad with slashdot" [20:57] <shaggy> heh [20:57] <Dolgan> /wj #slashdot [20:57] <Dolgan> oops [20:58] *** phUnBalanced (~john@207.176.47.53) has joined #kuro5hin [20:58] <Signal_11> Besides... the trolls were better at dissing me anyway. You just suck at it. [20:58] <CmdrTaco> Signal 11 thinks he is the reason for moderation, for mete moderation, and for jesus. [20:58] <DJBongHit> phUnBalanced: you're missing some funny shit here [20:58] <shaggy> CmdrTaco: don't put so much stock in yourself [20:58] <phUnBalanced> DJBongHit! [20:58] * CmdrTaco is an idiot. [20:58] * CmdrTaco can admit it. [20:58] <Signal_11> Ugh. [20:58] <phUnBalanced> DJBongHit what's up? [20:58] * DJBongHit is God [20:58] <CmdrTaco> Sig11 is just plain egomaniacal and naive. [20:58] <Dolgan> someone is logging this, yes? [20:58] <phUnBalanced> uh oh Signal_11 vs CmdrTaco [20:58] <DJBongHit> phUnBalanced: CmdrTaco vs. Signal_11 [20:58] <CmdrTaco> DJ:Thats some good shit. I'd tend to agree with you ;) [20:58] <DJBongHit> Dolgan: I am [20:58] <Signal_11> Yeah.. Slashdot Smackdown 2000... [20:58] <AArthur> hehe [20:58] * CmdrTaco bows towards the DJ. [20:58] <DJBongHit> CmdrTaco: word :) [20:59] <shaggy> hrm [20:59] <phUnBalanced> smokedot smackdown? [20:59] <phUnBalanced> or just smack? [20:59] <DJBongHit> phUnBalanced: lol [20:59] *** kck (disavowed@h24-65-226-56.lb.shawcable.net) has joined #kuro5hin [20:59] <CmdrTaco> I work all day, you just fucking troll websites. That definitely qualifies you as an expert. [20:59] <dieman> Dolgan - yes. [20:59] <Signal_11> Taco... [20:59] <kck> heh. [20:59] <DJBongHit> roflmao [20:59] <Signal_11> You said a long time ago you'd fix the system. [20:59] <Signal_11> You promised us that this wasn't permanent. [20:59] <CmdrTaco> Sig:If I saw a problem. [20:59] * DJBongHit wishes his roommate would get back with the weed [20:59] <CmdrTaco> Sig:I don't know. The kap seems to work. [20:59] <Signal_11> YOU BITCHSLAPPED IT. [21:00] <Signal_11> That's what you did! You didn't fix it, you just made it worse! [21:00] *** brian_ (~brian@gorf.tangent.org) has joined #kuro5hin [21:00] <CmdrTaco> Com'on sig: make sense! [21:00] *** CaptTofu (patg@pm-4-6.tellink.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:00] <jamie> rant rant rant [21:00] <shaggy> flop flop flop [21:00] <QuoteMstr> Wow, clash of the titans. [21:00] *** OieRw (mathew@nic-163-c164-009.mn.mediaone.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:00] <DJBongHit> lol, the whole slashdot crew vs. Signal_11 [21:00] <CmdrTaco> hey guys! I'm having some fun ;) [21:00] *** rusty (rusty@209.81.27.194) has joined #kuro5hin *** ChanServ has set +o rusty in #kuro5hin [21:00] <jamie> use more exclamation points, s11, that'll help [21:00] <Signal_11> Christ - if you don't believe me... go read the replies on my post in the slashback article. [21:00] <CmdrTaco> Allright Sig, bring it on. Whats broken? [21:00] <dieman> here comes rusty! [21:00] <Signal_11> Other people think this too. *** CaptTofu is now known as HateFullBastiD [21:00] *** ebw (ebw@cloaked.pit.adelphia.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:00] *** Octal (brian@cloaked.reshalls.umn.edu) has joined #kuro5hin [21:00] *** seanwerk (sean@cc213-2.is.asu.edu) has joined #kuro5hin [21:00] <CmdrTaco> Other people don't have the same data as I do. [21:00] <rusty> man [21:01] <CmdrTaco> M2 works. [21:01] <CmdrTaco> I have stats. [21:01] <rusty> i thought it was just really quiet in here [21:01] <CmdrTaco> Moderation works. [21:01] <Signal_11> And you're calling me arrogant? [21:01] <CmdrTaco> I have statistics. [21:01] <CmdrTaco> They ain't perfect. [21:01] <sugarush> As do I. [21:01] <phUnBalanced> <grin> [21:01] <phUnBalanced> not! [21:01] <rusty> i've been disconnected forever [21:01] <CmdrTaco> But they're 90-95% working. [21:01] <Signal_11> So what, stats are like bikini's.. they're just suggestive. [21:01] * QuoteMstr places his bets. [21:01] *** stevens_ (~stevens@HSE-Toronto-ppp165516.sympatico.ca) has joined #kuro5hin [21:01] <rusty> ooh [21:01] <rusty> flamewar :-) [21:01] * jamie rolls eyes [21:01] <DJBongHit> rusty: oh yes. [21:01] <CmdrTaco> Oh, shit! Dark Angel! [21:01] * CmdrTaco is away: dark angel. [21:01] <Signal_11> Besides... you can't test a system by looking at the norm. You look at the extremes. [21:01] <jamie> whatever [21:01] * shaggy is away: vegetating [21:01] <phUnBalanced> er? [21:02] * jamie re-/ignores [21:02] <phUnBalanced> left for a bad tv show? [21:02] <DJBongHit> Signal_11: that's why I just delete trolls on smokedot. I'm not gonna put up with that shit. [21:02] <rusty> i should probably not get involved in this huh :-) [21:02] <Signal_11> Sigh. [21:02] <DJBongHit> rusty: i'm logging it, this is a keeper :-) [21:02] <shaggy> rusty vs. CmdrTaco [21:02] <phUnBalanced> Signal_11 I dont' think is a troll though [21:02] <Signal_11> He comes in, slams me, then walks out to watch TV. what's WRONG with this picture... [21:02] <phUnBalanced> karma whore maybe [21:02] <shaggy> btw [21:02] <kck> kck Vs. You All [21:02] <phUnBalanced> <grin> [21:02] <shaggy> that's not cmdrtaco [21:02] <phUnBalanced> Signal_11 Agreed [21:02] <kck> nur. [21:02] <dieman> no [21:02] <QuoteMstr> CmdrTaco: Slashdot moderation works in the sense that dropping an anvil on your head to sleep each night works. [21:02] <dieman> it is cmdrtaco [21:02] <mdxi> he *spelled* like cmdrtaco [21:02] <Signal_11> If that ain't, then it's taco's fault for not adding nick kill ability to it. [21:02] *** impure_element (dutrihack@ppp9488.on.bellglobal.com) has joined #kuro5hin [21:02] <dieman> its gotta be a registered nick. [21:02] <CmdrTaco> Slashdot Moderation in that if you read slashdot at Score:2, you get better comments then if there was no moderaation system at all. [21:02] <kck> heh. [21:02] <Signal_11> ... didn't you just call me a karma whore and say that wasn't true? [21:02] <rusty> i agree with that [21:02] *** pingflood (irc@cloaked.atl.mediaone.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:03] <Signal_11> ... isn't it true that by posting crap that agrees with the collective you get modded up? [21:03] <CmdrTaco> Its not 100% successful. No system based on volunteers ever will be. [21:03] <Signal_11> 100% successful? It ain't even 30%. [21:03] <CmdrTaco> Sig:Yup. And you demonstrate that perfectly. [21:03] <GandalfGreyhame> Signal_11 : Very true [21:03] <impure_element> what's with the topic [21:03] <CmdrTaco> It is 90+% successful. [21:03] <kck> where are we getting these numbers? [21:03] <CmdrTaco> closer to 95. [21:03] <phUnBalanced> I disagree [21:03] <kck> 30% 90% etc [21:03] <kck> heh [21:03] <Signal_11> The trolls have organized - it's gotten to the point where we have jargon to describe it! [21:03] <phUnBalanced> good guesses [21:03] <DJBongHit> CmdrTaco: smokedot is 100% successful. Not a single troll survives. :) [21:03] <CmdrTaco> M2 results, and my own checking. *** rusty has set the topic to CmdrTaco v. Signal 11 Steel Cage Match! [21:04] <DJBongHit> rusty: lol [21:04] <phUnBalanced> wtf came up with the term Troll anyways? [21:04] <mdxi> the debate has started [21:04] <stevens_> it's more than 30%; I wouldn't read the comments at all unless I can push the number to read down to 30ish [21:04] <GandalfGreyhame> rusty : Ha ! I love this [21:04] <Signal_11> You aren't helping things rusty... [21:04] <mdxi> not this one, the presidential one [21:04] <rusty> sorry [21:04] <impure_element> now thats a good topic [21:04] <phUnBalanced> rusty: lmao [21:04] <CmdrTaco> This dark angel chick is a druggie. Damn. [21:04] <ebw> Troll is a term from usenet [21:04] * GandalfGreyhame wonders when someone beside himself is going to realize what Signal_11's post on Kuro5hin actually was [21:04] <phUnBalanced> I like the zoosex one! [21:04] <kck> cmdrtaco: but she's hot [21:04] <DJBongHit> CmdrTaco: the chick from dark angel is hot [21:04] <DJBongHit> so it doesn't matter [21:04] <phUnBalanced> props to Dark Angel! [21:04] <CmdrTaco> She's super hot. [21:04] <DJBongHit> kck: lol [21:04] <kck> :) [21:04] <phUnBalanced> lol [21:04] <phUnBalanced> smoke on [21:05] *** Simcop (Simcop@meitnerium.remote.qx.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:05] <impure_element> I gotta go to phUnBalanced on the fact that she's hot [21:05] <DJBongHit> phUnBalanced: you want to come by and smoke tonight? [21:05] <QuoteMstr> CmdrTaco: Tell me this --- How often do you see a pro-Microsoft post moderated up, and how often is moderating up a pro-microsoft post punished in metamoderation? [21:05] <Simcop> is YDL any good? [21:05] <Signal_11> Why is it that no matter where I go, the *feet* follow me. [21:05] <rusty> GandalfGreyhame: what was it? [21:05] <kck> Yellow Dog Linux? [21:05] <Simcop> yeah [21:05] <GandalfGreyhame> http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2000/ 10/3/194736/317;tool=post&mode=moderate [21:05] <kck> haven't tried it [21:05] * Simcop pokes at rusty [21:05] <kck> only linuxppc [21:05] * teferi is away.. autoaway after 30 minutes ..(log+page) [21:05] <CmdrTaco> Anyway, Signal 11 has wasted enough of my time. Giving him attention only makes him think he's relevant. [21:05] <GandalfGreyhame> CmdrTaco : He is [21:06] <rusty> GandalfGreyhame: no, i read it, but what do you think it was? [21:06] <kck> haha [21:06] *** SuperQ (~ben@chef.nerp.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:06] <CmdrTaco> Now that he can't measure his selft worth in karma, he doesn't have much. [21:06] <phUnBalanced> CmdrTaco: I have to defend Signal_11, he's not an idiot [21:06] <Simcop> in your opinion [21:06] <Signal_11> Hey... considering you employ one Jon Katz as your karma whore, I wouldn't beat my chest too loudly! [21:06] <Simcop> which is better [21:06] <GandalfGreyhame> rusty : Hmm.... maybe I'm just an overly cynical bastard from just getting out of high school [21:06] <Simcop> linuxPPC [21:06] <Simcop> or YDL? [21:06] <SuperQ> evening folks [21:06] <kck> I'd say Linuxppc [21:06] <kck> but that's just me [21:06] <rusty> GandalfGreyhame: i don't think it was what you think it was :-) *** HateFullBastiD is now known as CaptTofu [21:06] <Simcop> k [21:06] <GandalfGreyhame> CmdrTaco : Signal_11 does have a brain behind him [21:06] <kck> I don't use linux enough to make a sound judgement though [21:07] <Simcop> i just wanna get introduced to it [21:07] <GandalfGreyhame> rusty : That's just my opinion on it, and one that amuses me greatly =P [21:07] * CmdrTaco settles down for a second. [21:07] <Simcop> goodamnit [21:07] <CmdrTaco> ok, sig11 isn't an idiot. [21:07] <Signal_11> Taco's just upset.. he thinks I'm the cause of all the trolling. I'm not. [21:07] <Simcop> cyber bond wont fuckin work on a mac [21:07] <CmdrTaco> He is annoying. He is a pest. [21:07] <CmdrTaco> but he's not an idiot. [21:07] <Simcop> thats horse shit [21:07] <DJBongHit> CmdrTaco: deep breath. relax. [21:07] <kck> what kinda of mac are you gonna run it on simcop? [21:07] <DJBongHit> smoke a bowl [21:07] <CmdrTaco> He just sees the slashdot moderation system differently then me. [21:07] <Signal_11> Me disappearing won't change slashdot one iota and we both know it, can we atleast agree on that? [21:07] <Simcop> g3 350 [21:07] *** drwiii (drw@microsoff.com) has joined #kuro5hin *** ChanServ has set +o drwiii in #kuro5hin [21:07] <kck> heh *** drwiii has set -o drwiii in #kuro5hin [21:07] <GandalfGreyhame> rusty : See where I'm coming from though? [21:07] <kck> drwiii. [21:07] <rusty> whoever's logging, i want a copy of this later on :-) [21:07] <phUnBalanced> CmdrTaco: he's trying to help point out inherent flaws in the system [21:07] <drwiii> kcj [21:07] <CmdrTaco> He expects perfection from a system built upon volunteers. [21:07] <DJBongHit> rusty: I've got it [21:08] <phUnBalanced> he does it a lot better then masses of trolls [21:08] <AArthur> Simcop: Well, LinuxPPC can't even get there DNS stuff working right for there own servers, and they release very lame security warnings [21:08] <Dolgan> cmdrtaco, erm... hot grits? [21:08] <CaptTofu> ok, so he provides a site for all of you, and it costs, what, nothing? And all you do is bitch about it? [21:08] <mdxi> by the way, the word for "be suckered by a persuasive person to temporarily turn off their critical thinking skills and become emotional about things." is "demagoguery" [21:08] <phUnBalanced> DJBongHit me too! [21:08] <seanwerk> CmdrTaco: Isn't that what Linux/FreeBSD/et. al. are? [21:08] <Signal_11> I dont' expect perfection! I expect some goddamned effort and people who are willing to experiment.... [21:08] <CmdrTaco> The inherrant flaw in the system is that people working for free won't be perfect. [21:08] <DJBongHit> CmdrTaco: LOL. use scoop for slashdot :) [21:08] <Dolgan> rusty, looks like we have a bit of activity tonight, eh? ;) [21:08] <seanwerk> I have expected perfection, and recieved it. [21:08] <Simcop> so arthur, YDL would be better? [21:08] <drdink> hmm [21:08] <kck> you all stop typing! [21:08] <CmdrTaco> There will be mistakes in moderation. There will be trolling. Spam. Asses. [21:08] <kck> I can't read this fast! [21:08] * Simcop waves at dolgan [21:08] <phUnBalanced> CmdrTaco: people do a lot of things for free [21:08] <mdxi> seanwerk: really good blowjob, eh? [21:08] <CaptTofu> it doesn't matter what you 'expect'. It's his site. [21:08] *** adrian (~adrian@bc-pen-a53-01-17.look.ca) has joined #kuro5hin [21:08] <Dolgan> kck, me neither, and it's all so interesting too :) [21:08] <drwiii> spam asses? [21:08] <phUnBalanced> CmdrTaco: not just slash [21:08] <kck> haha. [21:08] <rusty> GandalfGreyhame: i dunno. maybe. but it doesn't matter. I still thought it was pretty good :-) [21:09] <Signal_11> So what. It's more than just "a" site. It's the site. What slashdot says carries weight.. even if what it says has typos in it. [21:09] *** dante (dante@inferno.student.umd.edu) has joined #kuro5hin [21:09] <CmdrTaco> Dark angel has a hot girlfriend! [21:09] *** CaptTofu (patg@pm-4-6.tellink.net) has quit the network "Quit: arghgh." [21:09] <GandalfGreyhame> rusty : So did I. Can you at least see that I may have a point? I don't care if you agree with it, as long as you can see where I'm thinking. [21:09] <phUnBalanced> dante... umd.edu ? [21:09] <drwiii> trollin, trollin, trollin on a river [21:09] *** hemos_ (~hemos@cloaked.dsl-isp.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:09] <QuoteMstr> CmdrTaco: I remember the introduction of metamoderation in the first place. When is the last time you at least *tries* something different, *tried* to improve moderation? [21:09] <CmdrTaco> Hey bates, welcome to the fray ;) [21:09] <rusty> heh [21:09] <hemos_> Hey, it's the happy fun bus! [21:09] <kck> heh. [21:09] <Signal_11> Taco.. would you like to see what I got in my inbox in the past 2 days? [21:09] <CmdrTaco> Quote:Many changes are in various states of code. [21:09] <Signal_11> I can tell you - zero flames, all encouragement. [21:10] <Signal_11> I'm not some lone ranger out here. [21:10] *** CmdrCanadrian (adrian@area51.slashnet.org) has joined #kuro5hin [21:10] <jamie> The bottom line is that I've participated in online discussion systems since the late 1970s, and the slashcode provides the best system I've ever seen for > 10^4 users. It's not perfect but it's damn good at marginalizing annoying people. [21:10] <CmdrCanadrian> Hi.. [21:10] <kck> hah! [21:10] <kck> hey adrian [21:10] <drwiii> adrian: nice. [21:10] <CmdrTaco> Sig:Of course. You're jesus. You crying out against someone who is successful means that everyone else can say ra ra. [21:10] <CmdrCanadrian> Hi.. [21:10] <CmdrTaco> It's the same deal with microsoft, but on a smaller scale. [21:10] <Signal_11> jamie: I've participated in online systems since the late 80's, and while I'm not as old or as wise, I know slashdot could use some work. [21:10] *** Aaton (yazz@cmbr1-tnt-01-162.port.shore.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:10] <jamie> Some annoying people like S11 keep trying to find ways to demarginalize themselves, but that just means the software isn't perfect (duh). [21:10] <CmdrTaco> They are successful, so ra ra everyone hates them. [21:10] <CmdrCanadrian> hmm.. [21:10] <Signal_11> Even if it is the best, that's no excuse not to atleast TRY to improve on it. [21:10] <phUnBalanced> CmdrTaco, slashdot is a cool site, great info, very useful, but why not improve the system? [21:11] <CmdrTaco> Suddenly linux gets super popular. [21:11] <DJBongHit> ARGH!!!!! FUCK!! [21:11] <kck> "fad" [21:11] * kck runs [21:11] <CmdrTaco> Linux is better. But these days many people use it 'cuz its cool to be different. Its a fad! [21:11] * DJBongHit just spilled bong water on the carpet [21:11] <CmdrTaco> Its popular. [21:11] <GandalfGreyhame> CmdrTaco : Linux sucks :) [21:11] <phUnBalanced> that doesn't stop linux from getting better [21:11] <kck> heh [21:11] <CmdrTaco> Dissing someone popyular is a great way to make yourself seem smarter or more important. [21:11] <DJBongHit> GandalfGreyhame: don't start. [21:11] * drwiii [heart] freebsd [21:11] <QuoteMstr> Gandalf is a BeOS zealot. :) [21:11] <GandalfGreyhame> DJBongHit : Hehe, couldn't resist :) [21:11] <Simcop> so YDL is better for beginner than linuxPPC? [21:11] <CmdrTaco> and its easier to gain followers when you have an arbitrary enemy. [21:11] *** panner (~keith@A020-0349.LXTN.splitrock.net) has joined #kuro5hin [21:12] * DJBongHit disses CmdrTaco and is therefore smarter and more important [21:12] <CmdrTaco> phun:We are improving the system. [21:12] <phUnBalanced> GandalfGreyhame: oh yeah, well that's just like your opinion man [21:12] * panner just got home [21:12] <kck> dunno simcop [21:12] <harb> Is stuff being stupid yet? [21:12] <harb> =\ [21:12] <harb> +done [21:12] <mdxi> i read that as "panner just got some" [21:12] <GandalfGreyhame> phUnBalanced : That's all I'm presenting it as [21:12] * rusty disses DJBongHit and is therefore also unimportant :-) [21:12] * Simcop kicks panner in the junk [21:12] * Simcop [21:12] <Signal_11> CmdrTaco: Where's the improvement? I haven't seen any changes in almost a year. [21:12] <CmdrTaco> I get hundreds of emails every week about the moderation system. [21:12] <phUnBalanced> CmdrTaco: but that's all Sig11 is trying to do... he's not just trying to take down the System [21:12] <Simcop> where j00 been [21:12] <hemos_> Signal: That's because it's not as obvious as that. [21:12] <kck> heh [21:12] <phUnBalanced> since when is /. that important that it's the "System" [21:12] <panner> mdxi: no, but if you could set something up... [21:12] <CmdrTaco> I debate this with many many people. And I take the best stuff and hopefully will use it. [21:12] * panner couldn't get online at first [21:12] <Signal_11> hemos: then help me understand it. [21:12] *** CmdrCanadrian (adrian@area51.slashnet.org) has quit the network "Quit: Heh.." [21:12] <panner> found out my access number changed :) [21:13] <drdink> hemos_: did you get "cowboyneal_'s message" earlier? :P [21:13] <Simcop> hahah [21:13] <hemos_> Signal: Then I spend all day doing that. [21:13] <Signal_11> CmdrTaco: people have been debating changes for years. You can't tell me all of their ideas sucked. [21:13] <CmdrTaco> many of the changes are subtle. Look at the code and you'd see them. [21:13] * rusty would love to participate here but i can' [21:13] <phUnBalanced> GandalfGreyhame: yeah just a line from the Big Lebowski [21:13] <Simcop> im D/lin YDL [21:13] <hemos_> dink: Yepper. [21:13] <rusty> t type that fast [21:13] *** i (500@clw-5-CF5A0A-157.wwc.com) has joined #kuro5hin [21:13] <CmdrTaco> Sig:The vast majority of ideas suck.