Slashdot Mirror
Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2
Blond_buzzkill writes "Twin Galaxies has this article introducing the IES and comparing it to the other consoles. Most informative, however, is a chart comparing the Indrema's hardware to the Xbox and the Playstation 2. The article also says the IES will go on sale in Spring 2001, a bit ahead of either Gamecube or Xbox." I'm still pretty excited to see what comes of Indrema. I'm still waiting for the converged media box, and they've got as good of a shot as anyone.
Here's the article from The Register on how Sony's Nagasaki plant switched to .18 micron and essentially fudged up the release schedule.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything to solve the "too many cables and components" problem I was talking about, as it provides the "MP3 server" via introducing about 4 new cables (2 for sound, 1 for power, 1 for Ethernet).
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Forget it. They're putting a lot of effort into the encryption, since it's pivotal to their business model.
This isn't going to be like CSS where you're dealing with an industry that until recently ignored us and doesn't understand the issues involved. You're going up against a much larger target this time.
Besides, suppose you do get the games running. They get the license fees. They get the money. What do they care? You're playing the games and they get the money, plus they don't have to take a loss on the console. Sounds like you're just making it easier on ol' Billy Boy. And God forbid a Linux user do that... heavens no.
I wish the DC people would come off their high horse, the DC rollout was a total flop.
and no, they do -not- need to be multifunction.
remember CDI?
focusing on game performance is what made early consoles so good, it was all they did. sure, other functions might be used by someone, but i would prefer they are optional add-ons, for those that care to pay for them.
semantics are everything!
This box sounds really sweet and all, I think the fact they are going to have a more widely acessiable api and development envoirment is going to be a good thing. Also in terms of horsepower, this kicks the crap out of my PC at home, my workstation at work!
The thing I am wondering though, is sure this is a whole alot-a juice in a little box, but what price tag are they think about here?
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
The hardware comparison chart doesn't compare CPUs. It compares only CPU clockspeed, which means, of course, absolutely nothing unless you're comparing like architectures...which this is not.
Even though the PS2 chip is running at half the clock speed of the x86 architectures, it's doing so with a data path 4 times wider than that of the two x86 CPUs. That also doesn't take into account chip-specific features that affect performance like special instruction sets and branch prediction.
Someone who can afford four computers can't justify buying a console? I don't get it.
Care about freedom?
I'd rather be lucky than good.
What about in a personal TV recorder / mp3 box / web console / game machine (ie, that the Indrema is NOT a game console but an Entertainment System)
filesystem : How hard is it to read ISO9660?
and DVDs and Tivo-like FS and a FS for MP3s/games...
virtual memory support : opps, can't have that without a HD. Even the X-box with a HD is not going to have VM.
NB: I do not know if they are actually using the VM... but if you want share/free ware games, do you really want them crashing your TIVO recording of The Simpsons?
device drivers : The system is supposed to be fixed. That's the beauty of console games, the hardware doesn't change. Why do you need loadable drivers?
But they let you swap out the GPU. Again, this is more than a console, it is a new device, and I wouldn't want to throw it away just for better gaming. Plus now you can online game when we switch to IPv6 or, more importantly, whatever device drivers you can't think of now that you might want.
In conclusion, you make intersting points but I don't think that you understand what Indrema is really trying to do.
Indrema would need to establish a relationship with Loki Entertaiment for their Linux game porting. That'll probably give them a bit of a start, rather than go from scratch.
All the previous posts about Cost/Manufacturing are definitely issues. I'm curious to see screenshots too.... trying to combine all of these features (browser, DVD, MP3, Gaming... one wonders if they'll try to incorporate DVR too.) into one simple, seamless UI is EXTREMELY difficult... especially if you can only work on NTSC resolution (640x480). How many of us run on a screen at 640x480? Also buggy... the more that you support, the more buggy the system will likely be. Spring 2001 is extremely aggressive.
Without market share they won't be able to negotiate deals with either game developers or retailers. Without games, and the shelf space necessary to sell those games, they will die. Consoles are mass-market devices, not hard core devices. People will not tolerate ordering direct from the manufacturer, or from obscure web stores, to get the games for their consoles.
The only way to make the thing really secure is to have the BIOS do the certification check and refuse to boot from uncertified DVDs. Of course, when you do that, you make it impossible to install another OS on the box without Indrema's consent. Which would be a good thing for their business plan, but defeats much of the point of open source - sure, you can have the source-code to the OS, but the user can't actually install any changes he makes.
One way or another, some freedoms are going to have to go out of the window in order for the thing to fly financially. In fact, by the time you've removed enough freedoms for profitability, you wind up with something that isn't really that much freer in practical terms than a PS2 or Xbox.
Sure computer is better, but somehow sitting in my living room drinkin' brews with the gang and playing console games all night long just seems more fun than running cable all over the place or connecting online.
Capt. Ron
crazy dynamite monkey
Actually, the Personal TV may be the killer app, assuming that it is something like TiVo or ReplayTV. Although they'll need a bigger hard drive for it to have decent capacity. A game machine and a TiVo in one box would be pretty cool.
It's only got a 10GB hard drive and no flash memory. I think this is just lameo TV, and there's still nothing good on the PC side for this, but maybe in a couple of years.
My vote is still that the MP3 Jukebox will get more people to buy it.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
That's very true. I was making an [incorrect?] assumption based on the current state of Linux gaming, such as using Quake 3 with the X window system. Who says it's even going to ship with X, eh?
Because you recieved this information from a Circuit City salesperson, we can safely assume that the oposite is true, and that Micro$oft has hardcoded the OS on chips that are soldered together, making it necessary to buy a new X-box every couple of months for bug fixes and security updates.
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
Whoa....did he just put the word "stable" in a sentence describing a Microsoft product? /me takes a deep breath and steps away.
-
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
300$... Hmm, that's what I payed for an Asus P2B Motherboard, 64 MB Ram, a Celeron 400, and a 10 Gig IBM Harddisk. I guess it pays to assemble your own goods.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Hey loser, my Linux box changed it's time aoutomagicaly to when the time change occured. Do some researt before you open your troll mouth.
That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
Didn't see anyone else catch it, but the chart isn't totally accurate... I've been playing DVD's in my PS2 just fine without any special memory card utilities. I haven't tried playing one without my memory card in, but I don't see how that would make a difference.
How does the dreamcast compare on this chart? From what I hear about the new PS2, the dreamcast is blowing it out of the water, but that is only hear-say.
.sigs??
-- Don't you hate it when people comment on other people's
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Saturn, Genesis, Sega, Nintendo, Sony, Square, Dreamcast, and PS2 are all proper nouns that need to be capitalized.
In addition it is a generally accepted practice to capitalize the first letter of the word at the beginning of each and every sentence.
Just in case you weren't paying attention, I was defending the PS2 in my previous post. While I have not outright said it, I am not a big fan of Sega or the majority of (Genesis, Dreamcast, Saturn) games.
In summation, please do the world a favor and do not reproduce!
Thank you for your time.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
The site says that the PS 2 requires a memory card for DVD playback. I watched the Matrix just fine without such accoutrement. Any word on that?
My other computer is your Windows box
Maybe I'm repeating (and I hope not) but the Indrema RUNS LINUX. Check out their faq.. not only do they run DV, but they call linux and open source, as a development accelerator not just a business advantage, but a business necessity.
I was intent on buying a PS2 (not an Xbox), and I probably still will unless Indrema can announce some games fast, but this is really one step closer to letting open source and linux become accepted in the main stream, not just in the tech world.
Another question, however, is why Indrema doesn't list the fact they are running open source as a feature...
Big boys don't cry, they sue.
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
I would also hesitate to call the PS2 a glorified DVD player.. it is a video game console that happens to be able to play dvds :)
While calling it a glorified DVD player may be a bit harsh, I find it rather disturbing that Sony is screwing the tech-savvy people who already have a DVD player.
--
Kevin Doherty
kdoherty+slashdot@jurai.net
Kevin Doherty
kdoherty+slashdot@jurai.net
A built in MP3 jukebox is all very well, but does this thing have napster?
I agree, as you can see, the specs on the Indrema make xbox look kinda bad. People will see the specs, and probably buy it over xbox. PS/2 doesn't offer much of anything. PS/2 would probably wind up like the 3DO and you would be playing the larger games as slow as x-mas. Im pretty sure
Indrema will put in a larger processor now if not later. 600mhz IS fast. And the 5-10 gigapixels is a lot better compared to xbox's 6. The marketing will be up to the consumer. If they wan't a fast machine, they get Indrema, if they want a slower one they get the xbox, if they want a slug they get the PS/2. + wouln't you like to work on your own games? it would be kinda cool. USB ports too!
Ignore the Anonymous Pissant trolls !!!
This may not beat the PS2 or DC for the "hardcore" console gamers, but it may be a good way of getting Linux into the home. If the price is reasonable, I'd certainly buy one as an MP3 player and for other purposes.
Almost forgot.. now that the ps2 and dreamcast are both out, shouldn't we get that games icon changed?
<joke>Considering that Sony sold over half a million units in less than a day, maybe we should change it to a dollar sign... </joke>
My understanding was that Sony sold there machines at cost ($299) and made their money from licensing. Microsoft is going to sell their box at cost just to get market share, money coming from services and future upgrades.
If the Indrema machine is selling for the same price, with roughly the same hardware, where does the money come from? Not a troll, actually just curious.
Indrema should be rather nifty. I'll be anxious to see the head-to-head comparison.
-
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
I see the future...
It looks a lot like 1984....
"Macintosh is better!"
"No, PC is better!"
"We're going to CHARGE for beer!"
"Where's the beef?!?!"
However, I wonder if they're actually licensing the ability to play DVD's with the MPAA (bastards!). I'm just wondering what DVD player the system will use.
Also have the nagging feeling M$ will "buy" the rights to the IES, and crush it before it even enters alpha testing. :(
the unbeliever
aim:dasubergeek99
yahoo!:blackrose91
ICQ:1741281
--
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Light him on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Despite how I would like things to turn out, I still find it difficult to believe Indrema can compete with the Microsoft/Nintendo/Sega/Sony marketing machines for share of what will likely be a saturated console market in 2001/2002 (Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube, and XBox).
Moreover, I am perturbed that Indrema has yet to announce anything with regards to developers or titles that will be available at launch.
I wish them the best of luck, but don't hold your breath for a miracle.
:wq
Talk about lack of availability, Lookit the latest Ebay sales. A lot of people are really deciding to just sell the PS2's they waited a whole night for. I guess a 12 hour wait is worth about oh say, $750-$850 profit. Look at this psuedo celebrity on Ebay Hey! I was on cnn!
There is no spork.
$150 for console. Done? No.
$75 for extra controllers. Done? No.
$55 for 4-way coupler. Done? No.
$50 per game. (Say buy 7)? Done? No.
$30 for ONE memory card. Done? Probably
Guess what. A few games later to get the damn thing up and running and WHAM you've got $700.00 in gear. Not to mention three weeks later I was bored with the current games. And what are you missing for getting this, when you could've purchased a 900mhz Athlon Thunderbird system and got a great graphics card?
1. No internet connection. Do I want Sony's? Can I surf the web with it, check email, etc? No.
2. The biggest thing missing for me is this: limited hacks. Everyone remember Tribes? What made it so fun to play is the endless revisions that people were able to make, intensifying the game and adding endless more hours of fun gameplay! Get that on PS2? No. What you get is a burned in version of the game, thank you drive through.
3. PS/2 ready for high speed cable? I don't know... but my computer sure is via nic card. For my money, I'll hold it thank you. $120 at Walmart gets me DVD when/if I want it. In the mean time I can nicely modify my other games (MS Flight Sim Pro for one), play multiplayer (Rogue Spear, etc), and eagerly await Tribes 2.... Cheers, &J
if taco used WINDOWS, then it would have changed all the time AUTOMAGICALLY!
I don't know about you but I tend to run ntpd; my system time is always accurate on Linux. :-)
An Indrema could be a much better WebTV -- though it probably won't ship as such. But with a solid infrastructure, that could happen later. Linux still wouldn't be necessary, though, if it wasn't for the HD. Once you have files -- collections of MP3's, emails, bookmarks, game mods, and downloaded games -- you have to have something to manage it. And then you start downloading games, upgrading software...
Now, if they can just keep it from becoming a PC...
has anyone noticed how butt ugly the indrema is? i know this company probably does not have the money or resources that sony and microsoft have to design a sleek looking machine, but please whats with all those ugly-ass curves? anyway, besides the uglyness factor, this thing is a freaking computer, not a console. upgradeable gpu slots??? i don't think the average gamer would know what the hell a gpu is, but if their target audience is not little gamer kiddies then i guess it might fly...but comparing this thing with real consoles is a bit unrealistic
The only way to make the thing really secure is to have the BIOS do the certification check and refuse to boot from uncertified DVDs. Of course, when you do that, you make it impossible to install another OS on the box without Indrema's consent.
Maybe the IES doesn't boot from DVD. Maybe it boots from the internal HD (with the BIOS checking a signature on the kernel) and just runs games off the DVD under restricted permissions so they can't modify anything on the HD. This would pretty much eliminate any software "chipping".
There are still some benefits from open source; the Indrema libraries will probably get integrated in desktop Linux distributions so that IES games can be easily ported to desktop Linux.
I don't know about this Indrema. I agree with others, it'll probably sell a few and there may be some interest, but I doubt it'll capture the attention of the big game houses. Yet it stands a chance of having some very good free games written for it. Sort of brings back memories of the C64, etc.
Sony... they have a headstart, and certainly have the hype.
Microsoft. I don't know. Honestly people don't buy products just because they say Microsoft on them, despite what others say.
Anybody here buy a Microsoft telephone? What? No? You did know they made one, right?
The Xbox will only sell if the design turns out to be solid. The console will need to be easy to use, durable, etc. There will also need to be a ton of cool games available.
So far from the previews it looks like this will be the case. They are certainly working with the right people to design the internals. My fear is the chassis and how well that is built, Microsoft doesn't have nearly the experience in this as Sony has.
Microsoft certainly has game developers on board. Microsoft is promising to reduce development costs by making the console and the PC use the same APIs. With the low margins in the gaming business, this is a good incentive.
I really doubt you'll see Microsoft pulling the same contractual moves as Sony has been.
Microsoft understands that the secret is in the software, and the goal to dominating the industry is to get as many software titles out as possible. Since they are the underdog, they aren't going to try to muck that up.
As such, I fully suspect they will encourage people to develop, rather than stifling them like Sony, Nintendo, etc. have done.
Specifically I doubt that Microsoft will charge excessive license fees, like Sony picking up an extra $10 off each title sold.
The XBox cost will have some profit margin in it, if not they'll make it up by selling their own games. Microsoft has been buying up some game development houses over the past several years. No need for license fees when you can absorb all the profit instead.
I doubt Microsoft will control what you can release. Nintendo has to OK the content of your game before you can sell it(I believe they've patented their ROM cartridge design), same with Sony, Sega, etc.
If people want to produce porn games for the XBox, I don't think Microsoft is stupid, they aren't going to try to prevent that. Anything that will gain them sales...
We'll see. Personally I don't doubt that Microsoft can pull this off from a development, and creative software point of view. My fear is that the resulting chassis will look like a piece of shit, and the mechanicals will work even worse. Microsoft just doesn't have good experience with consumer electronics.
If anybody saw that Microsoft phone, you'll know what I'm talking about.
The one point to be clear on here though is that the Indrema folks realize that games are the key. That's why open source tools is such a big part of their focus. They want to enable individuals and small open source efforts to release games just like the big boys. By lowering the barrier to entry for developers, they intend to have good games by shear force of the size of their developer group.
Now, contrast this to X-box and PS/2. Sony, has released a platform that all of the developers complain about as being too complex to get good performance out of. They decided to whip up a machine that was all bells and whistles but is too hard for developers to make use of. This will hurt them in the long run.
The X-box was targeted at making development easy, but AT A PRICE. Microsoft's business model relies on charging huge fees for their development tools. Granted these tools, if consistent with Microsoft's past work, will be good, but it will keep casual developers and smaller efforts from developing for that platform.
The gamble that Indrema is making is that if they can make developing on the platform open to as many people as possible, they can get more games and more interesting games that wouldn't normally find their way to the traditional platform. This is definitely a gamble, but I think they have a shot, and this is certainly no CD-I
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
AHAHAHA! That was REALLY FUNNY!! Bashing Microsoft! I've never seen such hilarity before! Woo!
Geez, all sarcasm aside, I'm running Win2k, and my computer has been stable as hell since I installed it. (2 weeks and counting, no crashes/BSODs/etc)
Their hardware is very nice as well... anybody ever used the intellimouse optical? Sweet.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
I was just thinking Jaguar comparisons then I saw your post, why bother posting twice eh? You hit the nail on the head, even if hordes of OS and Nix devotees buy, it is doomed. I wish Indrema the best of luck but even Atari died with a dececent console with decent opening games (see Aliens vs Predator) Where are their deep pockets for marketing and subsidising the losses on the console. How do they expect to get by without royalty fees like Sony, Sega and Dreamcast I see no mention on their web site of even one major league developer...hmm this reeks of laterday Amiga style vapourware. Sure they will probably bring out a technically amazing console, but who will buy it ? These days it matter not whether you have the best hardware its the marketing that matters and We all know that Microsoft will have the biggest war chest for marketing, and even if their console stinks Jo Public will buy it en masse because its Microsoft. Of course Sony's PSX2 will sell by the bucket load but even they will find it hard to meet Micorsoft marketing power.
Indrema needs to create it's own market, and not associate itself with the PS/2, DreamCast or Xbox - whatever the hell console MicroSoft is pimping. The competition will be way too fierce, and i can't see third party developers getting behing this one when they've got other platforms like the PS/2 with a much larger user base. Instead, Indrema should appeal to the legions of hardcore geeks who want to do their computing on the sofa. Market it as a geek box, not a gaming console!
I wish the Indrema luck though, and personally plan to support it.
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
Another reason it will fail is because it is missing support of major developers, because they are working on more profitable platforms. Yes, there will be the open source community behind Indrema, but that just means that there will be some free games. Not that that is a bad thing, but with the X-Box's 160+ developers, and numerous ones for PS2 and Dreamcast, it stands no chance on the games front. I have not heard once of one major multi-platform game that will be ported to Indrema, and I don't think it will happen (Other then some ports of PC games like Quake 3).
If you want an Indrema to develop for, if you could come up with something decent you could put in in a portfolio for potential employers to see, but this system will in all likelyhood be a commercial failure with a small, tight following after the system dies.
Hopefully these guys prove me wrong, but everything I know about the console market and the business world screams "failure" pretty loudly.
Only those who dream can grasp reality.
One point was left out of their table: Games.
--
1. All the API's are not GPL'ed. If they were, anyone could develop without Indrema's help.
2. Even if it were using a non-X86 processor, they must release the source to the Kernel, thereby allowing hackers everywhere to remove the prebuilt OS, and install Linux on it just like they did with the iOpener.
Sounds to me, like they are going to have a very difficult time making money of this thing, even if it sells.
Burn Hollywood Burn
I did play Alien VS Predator on a Jaguar before any type of regular PC would even consider producing that type of graphics. And it was a very, very impressive game at the time. Too bad it was the only one.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
After looking at the comparison, it seems one thing is clear:
These new consoles are all working towards becoming computers you plug into your TV. The only thing the Indrema is missing is a login shell. All you need to do is just by a kick-ass video card and plug your Linux box into your TV, and you'll be years ahead of these consoles.
-podious
The market of people kicking themselves in the ass because they bought the stupid piece of trash because of specs or name but then realized that there are no games for it.
Other consoles in that group - 3DO, Jaguar, CD-I.
I can't help but wonder about all the specs being thrown about on the various gaming consoles.
I mean, PS2 is often compared to a "typical gaming PC".
PS2 is often said to have a polygon rate of something like 12 MP/Sec., yet this article says 66, and also states the Xbox will have 150.
It's kinda frustating to see all the numbers and wonder what's going to happen to this software-driven industry.
There is a lot of focus on controlling the market with the switch to consoles. I have heard Sony will be forcing developers to sign many NDAs, buy $15K in software/hardware, etc.
I'm sure that, when all is said and done, M$OFT will do the same thing.
From that point of view alone, it would be a good thing to see indrema become a "one stop" source for open gaming needs. It could be a niche that pays off big.
But they will be demonstable hardware that can come within maybe 10% of the competitor to really make a big splash.
That may be tough to do, with MS and Nvidia in such a loving embrace.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
I just want to reply to this point, the issue of whether a gaming device needs an entire Linux install is one for the advocates to chew over:
multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.
I point out that threads are simply a light weight process, each with their own context state just like any full blown process. This means that your 'simple threading' system must support saving the stack and register state before switching to the next thread, along with a process table and some kind of queuing algorithm to determine which thread gets CPU; just like with processes.
On a single CPU gaming console multiple lightweight threads per process is pretty much a waste... I leave it up to the reader to determine how to handle interprocess communication between full blown processes, on a gaming console or X86 Linux box. You really don't need threads until you start handling multiple asynchronous events across multiple CPUs in real time. The consoles aren't there yet.
This is said from someone with no game programming experience... but I can't imagine it's much different from any other computer -- especially if it's running Linux.
Cheers,
--Maynard
LitteBro: Get off the indrema!! I wanna play!!
BigBro: Hush!! My kernel 2.4.7 compile is almost done!!! Go play with the PS2 you paid 1k for in 2000!
MarNuke
Intellivision was better.
Amiga was better.
We're saying this is better now, not just because of the steller stats. But because we know it is d-o-o-m-e-d.
Spooky Halloween coverage: Satanists Rally Against All Souls Day
The N64 isn't technically superior in all ways to the PSX, most importantly it is still cartridge based leaving it with small amounts of storage in comparison to the CD driven PSX, which is one of the main reasons developers like Square chose not to develop for the N64.
Someday I'll make devildog.org into something.
Someday I'll make
So... the only thing special about the IES is that it runs Linux? I don't think the end user cares about such things, only that it plays the games from popular development houses that want a large audience (therefore profit). Why should they market it as a special feature? Every video game system has operating software. It's nothing new... Since Linux enables free software development kits. I wonder if Indrema corp is taking any steps to prevent any old joe from marketing a big turd and pass it off as an exciting game, launching the next Atari-and-the-video-game-market-crash.
Personally I don't like its retro-70's "space-age" look. Yes this is opinion, I'm not knocking the machine just because of personal taste, but it doesn't fit in at all with my component entertainment system.
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
Well the SEGA Dreamcast lets you use any dialup ISP, and it's basically what you ask for, plays games and does nothing else. Not that that's bad, cos it's definitely good at playing games. Check out http://dc.ign.com to see that the Dreamcast has many quality titles. Personally I own both a PS2 and a Dreamcast. Since I can't afford any games for the PS2 yet (haha) I can't really compare the two fairly. But I must say I'm disappointed that I can't get online with my PS2 right now... there is no connectivity for it by default.
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
The comparison on that page shows that the PS2 needs software on a PS2 memory card to play a DVD. I own a US PS2 and can verify the console plays DVDs in hardware with a "driver" built into the system's firmware/bios which can be updated by software (perhaps contained on a memory card). It can certainly be used to play DVDs right out of the box with nothing extra.
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
and the Dreamcast was released in 3Q 1999 but it's current games look as good or better than most PS2 launch titles.
And I never heard of anyone lining up to buy PS2 games because of their playability....
I believe the loki already has quite a few good linux games. Wouldit be that much harder to port it over to a console running linux?
Have you heard of LanSonic? It's a box that is basically two things in one: a rack-format MP3 player, and a network based storage unit.
So, you can store your MP3s on this thing and play them either through your stereo (by hooking this thing up to the speakers), or through your computer (by mounting the harddrive(s) in the box over the ethernet connection).
You can even get it in a number of harddrive configurations - including 0. So, if you've got your own drive of MP3s already, you can just move it into this box and that's it. I'm not sure what file systems the box understands, but I'm sure it's something standard...
It seems quite reasonable, actually....
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
Hopefully they'll prove me wrong, but there is one GLARING deficiancy with this thing: No Games. If they're trying to make a game system with it that also plays DVD's, that's fine, but they've got to get out there and court developers, and courting developers requires money, lots of it and exclusive, big name titles. Remember Philips trying to pawn that thing on us? Played VCD equivilants, some games that weren't much better than what was on the 3DO and control it all with a lame remote control. Apparently this thing has nearly the same business model, albeit with better technology. So what if it can play DVD's, these set top boxes that play DVD's are slowly becomming as ubiquitous as that last gen of game systems that played CD's. Nobody's going to be ooh-ing and aww-ing over it just because it'll spin a DVD. These guys are putting a little too much emphasis on the DVD capabilities and not enough where it counts. The secret to a hit game system is GAMES GAMES GAMES GAMES, which just so happen to be the whole point of these things. Instead they're hoping people will buy it just because it's "open source" and "powered by Linux." I could give a crap about what OS is powering my game system, it just matters if the games are fun. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this thing beat the snot out of the M$ X-Box, but I just don't see it happening, especially if they don't have the cash to court the developers.
From the other side of the coin, I have never owned a game console, and would have a hard time justifying such a purchase to myself (and my wife!), after all, I already waste too much time as it is. But I don't currently have a DVD player (except in my DV iMac) or mp3 jukebox, so those functions might be what actually get me to buy one.
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
There most certainly is merit to having some components that integrate a bunch of functions; I am sitting now with two dilemmas; I'd be moderately interested in adding in:
- An MP3 player (with "big hard disk"), and
- Something like a PlayStation
and the dilemma is that I'm not sure how I'd plug them both in. What with having DVD, VCR, and TiVO, throwing in a PlayStation gives me Yet Another Input Signal, and I'm really not sure how to hook that up.I am seriously not interested in PS2; it seems severely overpriced, and doesn't do enough to solve any problems I consider I have.
But there certainly would be merit to having something that could combine the functionality of:
- TiVo
- PlayStation
- DVD player
- MP3 player
Cut down on the cabling and on the number of boxes (and power supplies and power cables) and that is certainly worth something.If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1)PC's in a plastic box - X-Box, IES. Superficially, these appear to be more powerful, boasting 733 & 600 MHz processors respectively. Only problem is, they are designed for use on applications, not games. The pc architecture is designed around manipulating small amounts of data with a lot of code, like MS-Word working on a document. They are not designed to process huge amounts of data with a small, looped amount of code.
2)PSX2 & (to a lesser degree perhaps) the dreamcast. These are designed, especially the PSX2, with games in mind from the ground up.They have huge bus bandwidth, and can chuck data around at a phenominal rate. In the case of the PSX2, this has been really radical, and Software Houses are reporting problems trying to come to terms with this new paradigm. It's quite unlike anything they have had to deal with before.
On the software side, however:
1)X-Box, IES. Who knows? Microsoft have demonstrated some games at trade shows and the like, but so far it has all been vapourware. However, they have pots of cash, and real develepor muscle, so they should have some good stuff out for release. As for the IES, I really have no idea.
2)PSX2. Most of the games so far are pretty unimpressive, and the software houses are having difficulties as noted above.
3)Dreamcast. It's here now, with a head start and a crop of good games, with more in the pipeline. According to some sources, the games it has presently are also technically superior to the PSX2's.
Ultimately, it's the strength of the software that will win the day. I can't see the PSX having anything to shout about for a good while yet, especially considering Sony is'nt primarily a software developer, unlike Sega and Microsoft.I don't think the IES will make it, it just can't compete with the forces arrayed against it, be they marketing or financial. I think, in 18 months time, the PSX2 will be the next Nintendo64, and we will be looking at a straight fight between Sega and Microsoft, and possibly Nintendo.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
If the Indrema had MAME available for it, and all 4000 games available, without crashing or mucking with controls, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Of course, with the TONS of licensing issue and all sorts of red tape concerning emulators, it would be impossible.
the article says the HD is 8/30/50 GB, while the chart says 10.
Also, I do believe it could be GPL'd or equiv, since they are allowing freeware titles... they seem to be allowing free development. I imagine that for them to certify you for a freeware game you have to actually have a FREE game... which would give them volume and yet not eliminate the pay-game revenue stream.
They have the much-desired ethernet interface... My guess is their open API + ethernet will allow you to do all sorts of things like netsurf and control your toaster over 10bT. Play MP3s through your stereo mixed with games... Whereas web tools will probably WORK with it, they probably won't ont he Xbox... meaning this will be able to be the WebTV non power users should actually buy, because it'll be using any ISP.
I hope their ad department is up to it. But it seems like you'll be getting a console + a basic computer for $300... which sounds pretty sweet to me.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
You may also wish to consider posting replies that will spark a personal hatred in the minds of moderators. Usually, this can be done by flaming Linux, Linus Torvalds or AMD. By causing a moderator to take personal offense to your post, you will be much more likely to be modded down to -1.
I hope this is helpful.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
I think it would be really cool if there were a lot of emulators available for the IES. Soc you could play all those old SNES/Genesis, C64, etc games. It should also be able to handle n64 & PSX with ease.
I reckon it would be worth using it just so I can sit back on the lounge and surf the web. Maybe even if it had ssh, so I can work from the lounge too, and have it all up on my big TV.
-- Cheer, Cheer, The Red and the White.
Geez, all sarcasm aside, I'm running Win2k, and my computer has been stable as hell since I installed it. (2 weeks and counting, no crashes/BSODs/etc) Only a microserf could possibly be excited by a mere two weeks uptime.
Software patents delenda est.
Come on guys! Sounds like the Indremeda is a homecomputer (not unlike Amiga/MSX/C64) running Linux, but sold without a keyboard. This thing will get kids programming their first "Hello world!" program (probably in Perl)! ;)
OpenSource games might not come out that often, but what about the demos? We could see a demo-scene coming up for this thing. The DVD drive will be used to store massive amounts of data (amateur CGI-movies anyone?) and the internet connection will allow for some pretty cool on-line gaming (playing NeverWinter Nights/Q3A on your bigscreen TV, sitting on your favorite sofa with a Coke in one hand and coke in the other
The return of homecomputers is upon us! Grab your free SDK's ASAP and start coding!
I'll just sit here and wait for all your cool stuff to be released as the code-illiterate(sp?) game-nut I am..
I'm not ugly, girls nowadays just don't have taste!
The US systems do not need the memory card for the DVD driver - it's built into the system. In Japan you needed one, but that was also when a memory card was packaged with the system.
My point was that it is unfair to compare the visual quality of PS2 vs. X-box games. I'm sure that the vapour screenshots of the PS2 looked a hell of a lot better than what was available for the Dreamcast at it's release, but that doesn't matter. The screenshots i've seen from the x-box look quite impressive, but that doesn't matter a damn bit if I can't play any of these games for another year.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
Or perhaps you believe that Linux is currently 100% bug free and there are no security loopholes of any kind waiting to be discovered?
Actually, either way, it doesn't really alter my argument. Indrema must restrict what OS you can install on the box. However they choose to do this, it still defeats much of the point of open source.
Yeah, microsoft would whine all the way on the road to bank, to cash in the license payments for the games sold. It wouldn't have to sell as many consoles at loss that way.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Why do ppl keep on whining about how games is what is important, and everything else is trivial? I, for one, want to have a console whose hardware (HD, memory, display, net connection) can be exerted to the fullest extent by the software, and OSS is the one way to guarantee it. If/when Indrema goes "out", there will still be software coming for it - from independent developers. Not so with X-Box and PS2.
And, with the damn thing you can do whatever you want (hopefully, at least at some point of time... after someone h4x0ring if nothing else). You can make this the control center of your living room/spare time, or whatever. Why can't people see the beauty behind this scheme?
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
I thought that Micro$oft had grabbed Halo for the X-box?
That would count as an original game.
um. buy an AV switcher. cheap, and it beats buying something that could suck.
:)
(i.e. i wouldn't buy this crappy thing just because it's easier to plug in. my ps2 rocks
semantics are everything!
There's always going to be something better coming along. In 2002 there might be the Acme Widgetmaster 2002! With more pixelly things and polygonality than ever before and quantum cube storage capable of storing the entire knowledge of the world!!!!
Ok. Hyperbole. But you get my point. Whether you buy a Dreamcast or PS2 now, an Indrema, Gamecube or X-Box when they're available, in a few years time there'll be something better.
When you're buying a console, the hardware isn't that important. OK - you want stuff to look good and sound good, but the main point of a console is the games available for it. If it has plenty of top-notch games of the sort you like, then that's the one to buy.
That's where consoles stand or fall. It's the Gillette principle, where the founder of Gillette realised that it didn't matter how much he sold the razors for as people would keep buying blades from him all the time afterwards. The console is the razor. The games are the blades. That's where the console companies make their money. Sony could probably afford to give away PS2s. Sega could probably afford to give away Dreamcasts. They'd get the money back on the extra games they sold.
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
as much as I want to, I can't see the Indrema being successful. Why? Games.
;p) has a so-far-known complete line of original good quality games, leading people to buy the console to play the original games.
The PS2 has a number of original (if not of slightly dubious quality) games, which would lead people to buy a console so they can play said original games.
The Game Cube (which I find odd that it hasn't mentioned...ahh, E3 2001 will change that
The X-Box doesn't have any announced original games, but instead everything so far has been a X-Box port of a PC title. Anyone who owns a PC will avoid it like the plague, but non-PC owners who want to play PC games will probably bite.
Then there's the Indrema. A console whos only claim to fame is the fact that it runs linux. Pity that the only chance of an announced game is from Loki, in which case it'll be a PC title anyway. No original games, and the only people buying them are Linux hax0rs wanting to convert it into a linux terminal, since Joe Sixpack would rather buy a MS console to play Unreal Tournament than some "unknown folks".
As soon as the Indrema guys manage to sign up someone for original content, then it has a chance. Until then, it's doomed to die as a console.
I don't think the strength of the software has anything to do with it.
Its all about marketing.
Was Windows 3.1 better than OS2?
Is Linux less a server than Win NT?
MS has the marketing muscle to push through anything it wants. Indrema sound like a good system, but there will be no way to market it.
Indrema will have a short lived life.
Yes, Linux has OpenGL for graphics. But it doesn't have well-marketed APIs for sounds, input, etc, that will attract developers.
As for the indrema, it looks pretty good (the integrated mp3 player is a nice plus), but i'm not sure how having many developers necessarily means good games. Maybe it will be like the C64. I remember playing both nintendo and c64, and i loved them both for their own reasons (nintendo had very fun good looking games, c64 had some very addicting games + many many other games to choose from). Each had their own forte and was popular in its own way.
For the PS2, Indrema and X-Box, I believe most people will not follow the line of reasoning that they already have a computer and a DVD player. These 3 will integrate everything, into something that would work in a living room. Not many people I know of have their computer and DVD player and video game machine in the living room (or maybe they do... :), although it is starting to change....
I'm not crazy Jack. Poor people are crazy. I'm eccentric. -Howard Payne
All of the extra software features are just like free gravy, you don't pay for it - and if you didn't have them, the architecture would almost certainly allow you to add the functionality. USB is probably to be used for the controllers, probably a good thing as it is both inexpensive and very expandable (as far as standard user input devices like controllers go) allowing for more controllers than you'd ever need to use and other peripherals, like mice, that follow normal standards to be used. In other words, you don't have to shell out money for proprietary devices since it uses normal standards - you may already have the needed extras attached to your computer. DVD isn't expensive, and it does add the functionality of DVD playback at little to no extra cost. It does allow for much more storage than CDs, however. Consider that Final Fantasy 7, which had so many movie files it ran up three CDs, would not only have fit onto a single DVD but would have loaded faster and could have used industry standard MPEG-2 with almost no extra coding effort, while providing excellent quality and efficient (considering quality and available space) use of disk space. A lot of the cost for the PS2 comes from the R&D put into the new chip, the low supply, the demand (as it is a new product) and the premium that goes with all things new. Compare a 730 mhz Pentium 3 to a 1 ghz Pentium 3 in price and performance, and you'll see this same trend. You pay more for new stuff simply because it's new and because the manufacturer can charge you for it. This is a good choice for those who don't have a computer capable of modern games or would like the uncomplication of a console. There is a lot to like about this system, and since we can expect it to sell for less than the X-box, it may do very well. Keep in mind that it will probably be a trivial matter to make Indrema games work on your PC (Same processor, and they have to publish any changes they make to any existing GNU/Linux code), so you just may find yourself rooting for this little console that could. Once again, the computer stuff is gravy. It's not hurting anything, and if it were a plain-vanilla console with the same standard specs (by standard I mean the standards that modern gamers hold a new console to), and no extras, the capability would still be there. It's nice to have, and for those without good computers or an existing DVD, this is a great choice. Besides, having your multimedia seperate from your computer is a nice feature to have, since it tosses away the added complication of using a computer for simpler functions like MP3 playing. One other note, though - this does let you use standard ISPs.
Who knows maybe a market will be generated for low cost PCs optimized for gaming. The console market could probably only sustain a small number of console makers, but PC clone makers come and go all the time.
-- Hob - Java Spectrum Emulator
They could have chosen a slightly more subtle name. Next thing we know M$ gets sued for integrating IES instead of IE5.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
should be thought about:
1) it's true that many people just want a friggin' gaming console, not the next generation do-it-all wonderboy. whatever happened to the good old box with ports for controllers and a slot for the game media?...ok..some of the improvements could be cool..better aux audio out...dvd could be nice as just a simple add-on. I.e. a gaming console with a dvd player, not a dvd player that can play games too.
2)It depends what companies get what deals with different develpoers. It's cool that indrema is open source, as that has many interesting possibilites. But the factor that will decide what console will rule the market is which one the big companies will develop for. Namco, konami, capcom and last but certainly not least, squaresoft. The psx2 is going to have metal gear solid 2, and final fantasy X...those two series alone could carry a gaming platform for the first quarter of its release. Squaresoft is in the first tentative steps of a possible deal with microsoft, so we may see final fantasy on the x-box, which would promote sales tremendously. (see ffonline.com). If we see a series of kick-ass gaems coming out for the ps2, then the x-box and indrema will be hard pressed to keep up. Look what happened to nintendo when they lost squaresoft, capcom and konami. Who'd the go to? Sony..and look at the result with the psx..amazing sales, and a domination of the console market. With nintendo possible teaming up with sega, we have a possible fourth player, but aside from the ps2, all other compitition is vaporware at the moment. So the ps2 is the only console actually out there, and as game developers learn to harness the technology we'll see some kick ass games, which is what ultimately sells the console, not the technology. If you don't belive this, look at what happened to segacd, sega saturn, atari jaguar, neo geo...which brings me to my last point
3) the chart shows how the x-box and the indrema can kick the ps2's ass, at least on paper, but looking at the games out on the ps2, we can easily see that they aren't taking full advantage of the ps2's seemingly meager capabilities. How much of these new gaming boxs are overkill? Again, the results will only be seen when the developers start to learn the systems...if no games take advantage of the technology, why pay all the cash? just to say you have x gaming console? i need a little more incentive than a dvd player and possible online games.
It would be cool, if somebody could tweak this box to make x-box games work. i am sure that a lot of games will come out for the x-box first... we could make microsoft whine...
What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an endangered plant?
All the hardware in the world won't matter for the Squaresoft fans out there. Square has said it will only develop for the PS2 just like it did with the PS1. Personally, if I were to buy a console, I'd get a PS2 just because of that. Square makes very solid games.
BTW, my laser disc player is really great, and I enjoy watching movies on my Betamax as well...
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I don't know about everyone else in the studio audience, but all I'm interested in is good games.
For example, I am not pumped about Neverwinter Nights because it is being developed for Linux as well as for Windows, I am pumped about NWN because if they pull off everything they were trying to pull off, it has the potential to totally revolutionize the role playing game industry. Think of it as the perfect graphical MUD.
Now, good games are not necessairily all going to be produced by the huge production houses that can afford to pay the $$$ and sign three layers of NDAs to get access to the APIs of the XBox and the PS2. The licensing and NDA schemes of these two consoles effectively lock out small publishing houses because there is NO WAY they could afford to pay the up front fees necessary to be able to develop for these systems. This is not to say that their game idea is bad, just that with these consoles it would not be possible to implement their vision.
The Indrema is different, and that's why I am pumped about it. It purposefully lowers one of the barriers of entry into the console gaming market, namely the barrier erected by the benefactor of the console. The benefactor makes anyone who wants to develop for it pay out the ass by default in today's market. I mean, hell, some estimates show that Sony is eating 100$ for each PS2 sold. That's a lot of $$$ when you multiply that by 500,000 PS2s sold. They make that back by leeching money away from game developers.
Indrema does not do this by necessity. When it comes down to it, you can produce a game that works on Indrema and not have to pay Indrema a cent or even communicate for them at all. Which is a great luxury for the smaller game developers, who may have the idea for the next killer game for any system but are stopped by these barriers to entry into the market. It is hard enough to push your title into the retail space, why compound the difficulty by playing chicken with the owner of the console?
Of course, this whole theory is completely fantasy. Indrema, the console itself, has two huge barriers to overcome.
1) The Microsoft hype machine and Huge Pile Of Cash
2) The Sony hype machine and Huge Pile Of Cash
If Indrema can overcome these two difficulties, they have a good chance of revolutionizing the console gaming markets and bringing all those wanna-be game developers out of the woodwork to bring the best games to the Indrema.
My, aren't we being optimistic about the Indrema today!!!
-inq
Why can't they just use the PS2 port. I mean, if it's good enough for my mouse and keyboard, it should be good enough for the Xbox.
Please bid on this Karmann Ghia! Please pleas
This hasn't got a chance. Most commercial PC games don't have close to the production quality of console games. ..and you expect fringe developers and open source/freeware games to compete?
Yeahsurewhatever.
Besides that, Sony is rumored to be losing money on PS2 units in order to establish a userbase and make money on the license fees, Microsoft and Nintendo are expected to do the same. I don't expect that this joeblowlinuxconsole will be able to do the same.
No one will put significant development money into this system until it has a large userbase, or a reason to suspect a large userbase develop. No one will buy this system -- aside from linux zealots -- to create the userbase without developers releasing significant titles.
except that I don't really want either the PC or the console...
Actually, I have a couple of PC's -- one running FreeBSD and one running Linux, and another Mac. None of them looks as good as the iMac though -- I even bought an epson printer in the same color (strawberry).
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
I've been trying to install W2K and it keeps failing at the very beginning while trying to load every single device driver it has. When it reaches the partitioning screen (after about 30 attempts) it refuses to install on my second drive. So much for the wonderful stable OS. I'll have to buy myself a copy of Partition Magic to move my Linux partitions out of the way just so it will install. Or else I could write off my small investment (it pays to have a kid sister at college :)) and forget about it. Thank god I didn't pay the full price, else I'd be sending email viruses to Redmond.
So DVDROM was a logical choice...it didn't take them a whole lot to add DVD playing as an option, given the circumstances, so it also seems like a logical choice. I doubt removing the capability would have seriously reduced the price (a few dollars, perhaps). Given the choice between $299 with DVD playing capability, or $289 without, which would you choose?
I am not a hardcore gamer, and I don't own (and probably never will) a PS1 or a PS2 or Dreamcast or a Nintendo 64, but as far as the DVD issue is concerned, it just seems like a logical choice to me.
----------
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Sounds like a Dreamcast is in order! You don't need DVD, you want something cheap (DC is $149), and you want online games TODAY using your own ISP. That spells Dreamcast. I had never played Quake III Arena until two days ago when I placed the GD-ROM in the DC, turned it on, chose "Internet Game" and was being fragged in a matter of minutes (using my own ISP).
Also, since the DC has been out for a while, some of the older, killer titles like Crazy Taxi and Soul Calibur are down to $19.99.
Check it out!
JoeK
What Would Sutekh Do?
Let's conjecture about the possibilities of two theortical systems which have been projected for release sometime in the future. By doing this, we hope to resolve any unforeseen potential issues before they manifest themselves in a non-hypothetical form.
The real DunkPonch is user 215121. Everyone else is Bruce Perens.
It's always interesting to see a new product launch, and then hear everybody else yell... "Just wait for our new WaterBago 2000, not only will it do 30million more polys per second, but it will leave your breath minty fresh!"
C'mon. It's the big "U" in FUD...
I never said I couldn't afford it, I just don't spend much time playing games.
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
Well it's a *lot* more stable than win98, which would crash on me about once/day.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
With all the news about the PS/2 reduced availability and people standing in lines to buy it it seems it all boils down to whether people can buy the thing. In this great economy everyone seems to have excess cash, but the supply of these seemingly great devices is so low only a few of the many people that want to buy the item can. Had Sony been able to produce 2x as many PS/2s they would have sold 2x as many. I worry that this new company will not have the production power to meet demand and will get swamped by the larger companies that can. The game system popularity is only partially influenced by technical specifications. The #1 factor is the available games. If a system has the "best" game it will be more popular than other technically more advanced systems. Look at the Sega Saturn or the Atari Jaguar.
I think the games for the Xbox are going to be better than those for the PS2. Just look at the specifications and anyone with half a brain will see the games just have to be better. I've played a lot of games and have not been disappointed by games with big system requirements. Just look at games like Daikatana. You know there's gonna be a port to Xbox. Besides, the Xbox will be much more stable than the PS2.
It isn't an improvement? which game did you play?
this brings up another point, who cares about the hardware? it is all about, and always has been about, the games. you could have the best most powerful and hottest console ever, and sell it for $2, but if square and capcom and eidios etc don't make games for you, then you don't sell. period.
think, really think about this. will this be a competitor, or will it be the BeBox of consoles?
oh, and i loved how this vaporware machine has all the things that the -current- ps2 doesn't or needs expansion. bah! i can make a spreadsheet full of cool thingys too, does that mean i have a well built machine, with well-writted titles?
where was the mention of the n-cube/dolphin/nintendo? or the dreamcast, for that matter.
and mp3 player on a game console is about as useful to me as a dvd player, i prefer them as being an option (though, i think you can just play a dvd right off, the only option is the remote, like CDs in the ps one. i'll try tonight).
network connectivity? quit bitching about how sony will do something -before- it is done. jesus.
(afaik you will need to connect to sony's server for some games, a la battle.net. not forced to use a sony isp. oh, and @home ain't the grail dude)
plus, what gives with talking processors and memory, when the ps2 is existant, and the xbox and indrema aren't? that's like saying the 2003 300zx will have more bhp than a 1999 corvette.
(it doesn't exist yet, and the vette is here now. therefore, at present, there is no comparison. otherwise factor in sitting on your duff for 2 years for that first game to load
semantics are everything!
While you may not need all this stuff, I want it. And so do a lot of other people.
I'd love to have an mp3 player without having to either run wiring from my computer to my living room where my stereo is (yes, I'm one of those people that spend time away from the computer) or place a whiring beast PC in my stereo cabinet. I enjoy playing games on a console but would really like to be able to play against other (debatably) living breathing people. I'd like to have a Tivo-like solution but I don't already have one. The only thing that doesn't really get me all that excited is the web browsing/DVD playback capability, but it would my parents.
By your stating you don't want/need all this, its become quite obvious that you just aren't the target market for this device. I'm guessing that anyone that has seriously considered purchasing 2 or more of these features in their own seperate box but hasn't yet is the market they are trying to appeal to.
I'm guessing you are one of those people that question the existance of MS Word. We've got Vi, why would we ever want Word?
something clever
I own a lot of playstation games. Ridge Racer, Toshinden, Twisted Metal, and several of the others. I like the playstation, but it's starting to (finally) have hardware difficulties requiring me to turn it upside down to play. Bleem is cool and all, but playing these on my 27" tv with my nifty chair for video games is better. When the cost for the Playstation 2 comes down, I'll probably pick one up, as I don't think my PSX is going to last too much longer, but I don't really mind. It's had years of use.
The Playstation 2 is the first one that looks to have real good backward compatibility. If anyone cares to remember, this is why the PC has had as much success as it has, because our software generally works for years and years and years despite newer hardware. Yes, I do remember the equipment that later came out for nintendos and such, but that was all third party, and for years I had to have a nintendo, Super nintendo, Sega Master System, Sega Genesis with the CD and 32x all hooked up. I'd much rather have one that will play more than just its specific games. Also, Sony's system is available (in strained supply granted) BEFORE Christmas, and as freakin' nuts as parents are, they'll probably shell out the $300+ for the system and games, and then lots of kids age 10-18 will have them. Their friends will see the nifty new system with its cool games and want one for themselves. They'll later see the Microsoft box and other platforms, but they'll not be able to afford them, and still buy games for their Sony. Sony isn't stupid either, thet original Playstation has hung on for a LONG TIME on really underpowered hardware, but generally keeps on going. Playability is a big part of it, and one can have all of the pretty graphics and fancy touches one wants, but if playability isn't there neither will be repeat customers.
Just my own two cents worth...
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
is there anyone that a: has a bunch of mp3's and doesn't also already have b: something to play them on?
if i want a living room mp3 player, i'd buy one.
feh.
semantics are everything!
For the price of your iMac, you could have got a nice PC, a DVD player AND a console...
You're missing a graphics card, DVD, case, modem, and you have a processor at 2/3d the clockspeed. How is this even a close comparison? (Although it makes one wonder how they could make a profit selling this guy.)
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Problem is, of course, that with a completely open source OS and API set, it's hard to see how they can make any money off 3rd party titles. In the traditional console model, the console vendor gets a royalty on every single copy of a game sold (or, in Nintendo's case, every single one manufactered!). They're just not going to be able to do that here. Indeed, the handy comparison chart even admits as much when it says that some games will be freeware!
In short, although the lack of games and marketing muscle are indeed a big problem (as others have already noted), they're just a drop in the ocean compared to the gaping hole in the financial plan.
NWN is fairly exciting, but i'd hardly call it perfect
The design decision that you have to load all region maps into memory at server boot tiem is a pretty severe limitation.
Graphics card 80$, DVD not necessary, modem not necessary, processor runs at 83MHz:-) Did I miss anything? Oh and my computer also runs "useful" things. Not to say that games aren't useful of course.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
First, it's not the console, it's the games.
If they can get companies or Open Source gaming collectives to crank out games for them, they stand a good chance.
If they can't, they die.
Second - I noticed it's spec'd as having built-in MP3 Jukebox capabilities - this might be the killer app.
[I'm biased, I own MSFT and Nintendo stock]
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
We argue all the time. He's a *nix hound, and while I realize it has it's uses, my philosophy is : "Macs for multimedia. Windows for games. Linux for working."
the unbeliever
aim:dasubergeek99
yahoo!:blackrose91
ICQ:1741281
if I were going to purchase a gaming console that is what I would want. I have no desire for an MP3 player, a DVD player, USB, etc. I want to play my games and be done w/it. The only real feature that I could possibly want is some sort of Internet access to play online games.. w/the PS2 it seems like you are going to have to go through Sony. No thanks. I want to use standard ISP's and do it like it has always been done.
.02.
I was interested in buying a PS2, I really was, but then I took a look at the $300 pricetag and thought again. Why the hell would I need to pay $300 + $50+ for each game when all the god damn machine is is a glorified DVD player. It seems to me that they could have kept the costs down by not integrating all these unnecessary parts and actually finding out what is wanted out there.
I already have a DVD player, it was $120 at Walmart. I already have a computer (as most people do) why would I want computer like stuff (again, other than Inet access) on there?, I already have a drinking problem, why would I waste $300 on non-beer?
Just my
You mean like my hacked Websurfer? If they follow up on their promise of free open source development tools then a mame port would prove a minor exercise.
;?)
I spent $50, some old used parts, and about 15 hours building my own version of this box with much less power or features. It dual boots linux/winblows, runs MAME, ZSNES, plays mp3s, controls my X10 modules throughout the house, plays PC games but has no hardware 3D, connects to the web (but TV is no good for surfing). I can remote control my office machine to check up on download or compile progress. The main advantage is that it's in my living room, not my office.
This machine is great for what I paid for it and could even be upgraded to a DVD player if I spent almost as much $ as a stand alone DVD, but it has no chance of becoming a digital video recorder or a high end game machine. If the Indrema ever makes it to market one will certainly replace my websurfer in the AV cabinet good games or not. If it has all the features of Tivo or ReplayTV then the 50Gig drive option would seem to a wise choice if appropriately priced. The base unit is slated to cost $299. I know I can't build a similar unit for anywhere near that cost. An ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon sells for almost this much alone.
That said and being an ex-game developer myself, I think there is a good chance that there will be good games. There are lot's of talented and creative developers out there that would love to have the chance to develop for a 'console' without having to sell their soul to Sony or Nintendo by way of NDAs, or pay huge license fees for lousy proprietary development tools.
It sounds like Indrema is trying to make this a no money down proposition for developers. requiring only a per unit sold certification charge, and free certification of freeware. This will allow small startups and amateurs to get in on the action. They probably won't pump out the eye candy that is the main selling point on the current consoles, but maybe we'll see a resurgence of good game play and original ideas. The big development houses are loosing touch with their product in their corporate race for market share. Let's bring on the youngsters and see what they can produce after school.
-You have my permission to disagree with me but you will obviously be wrong
The IES won't run anything that isn't certified by Indrema, and they'll use that to get a royalty on every game. (Unless your game is gratis, because a fraction of nothing is still nothing.)
The article mentions the system runs linux under it all. What is the point? An OS is supposed to provide:
multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.
filesystem : How hard is it to read ISO9660?
virtual memory support : opps, can't have that without a HD. Even the X-box with a HD is not going to have VM.
device drivers : The system is supposed to be fixed. That's the beauty of console games, the hardware doesn't change. Why do you need loadable drivers?
so in conclusion, I think linux if used, will be truely bastardized to the point it is no longer linux and mearly an advertising bullet point.
--
-- Virtual Windows Project
Now, having expressed that concern, I do realize one comforting thing. Let's say it goes on sale, and only the uber-geeks buy it. Fine, if it is open source, even if Indrema goes bankrupt, somebody's going to be out there writing games, and hacking the damn things. I mean even if Indrema went out of business I'm sure that the few they do sell will thrive.
But enough of my doom and gloom. Good luck to you Indrema. With the right combination of good technology, forward thinking, cash, and a lot of luck, maybe you can pull this off!
Oh and say, what "Major Title" will be coming with it?
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Strength of software has *everything* to do with it. The reason Windows 3.1 beat OS/2 is *exactly* because of the software that ran on it. The same thing has happened over and over in the console world. Consider the Playstation vs the N64. N64 is tecnically superior, but it failed to get developer support and thus didn't have the number of big games that the PSX had.
After seeing the stupi^h^h^h eagerness of the public on Ebay, you're crazy if you don't Microsoft won't "sponsor" a "grass roots" movement to get the same kind of PR.
Just a hunch, though.
Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2.
There is no mention of the PS2 in the article and there certainly is no "verus" comparisions with other systems.
-- Virtual Windows Project
I know, it'll probably end up like the Atari Jaguar.. a great box with nothing available for it. But, It says things that the others don't. It says use me. Ps2? it says do what sony wants. X-box? it says do what MS wants. If I can use my own ISP or @home with this then it wins with no competition. if I can play DVD and mp3 on it then it blows the PS2 completely out of the market.
P.S. the PS2 is really overhyped. I played one. it is NOT much of an improvement over PS1. and DVD playback is an OPTION.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
No not an improvement. Fancy smanchy mip-pamming dont make a game. NHL 2001 has polygon artifacts all over it, and it seems that the PS2 is more picky about smudges on the disc. I know that right now there isn't much in the games available and the first ones out of the door will be crappy in quality. But, it's enought to make a person that shelled out the money to be pissed. If game machines are to become an appliance in the home, they need to be multi-function. People dont want 30-50 items in their stereo/tv cabinet they want a few multi-function items... this is why we are seeing such beasts. (why do you think the APEX dvd player out-sold all other brands? it played Mp3's, even with it's problems of overheating and shoddy design.)
No the PS2 is way overhyped. It is marketed as the holy grail that will rip your socks off... It feels more like a dreamcast workover to me.
It's sad that people basically killed each other to get the PS2. It wasn't worth it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Geeks.
:/
:)
:)
:) (see http://www-classic.be.com/users/cryptonomicon/begi nning_print.html for the reference)
Specifically, the 20-30 crowd who grew up playing nintendo||sega and eventually the psx and N64. Looking back, a lot of those games just arent as fun anymore
Besides the obvious advantages of 100MB ethernet, keyboard/mouse, mp3 jukebox, and DVD player, the indrema will likely have a wider variety of game developers. These factors give the indrema real utility and function. Thats what I want
So, the Indrema may be the BOFH console of choice.
Back to the statement about old games not being any fun anymore.. lots of them were, but they were usually deficient in many other areas - storyline, graphics, gameplay, etc. This may partially be due to the oligopoly of game developers for the previous platforms, and making games that would appeal to the widest market segment. Since the licensing is very low compared to the other competing boxes, there would be less resistance for developers to create any sort of games for the Indrema. Thus, we should see a wider variety of games, ranging from mindless shooters to huge in-depth RPG adventures. A game wont have to sell a million copies to be successful. Even if this means that there may be a bunch of crap games, there would still be a high volume, and it would generally give a wider variety of games more suited to various game-style niches.
Another exciting concept.. release games with an SDK as common practice, then watch the users create new levels and additions to the game
This could be the 'hole hawg' of gaming consoles
I was thinking more along the lines of:
vapour vs. vapour vs. PS2
So far, the PS2 is the performance leader.