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Taxing Free Software
Jarek Sygitowicz writes "Lets look backward: nearly a month ago. One officer taxed 6 GNU/Linux
boxes and two Star Offices at the price of 6 Microsoft Windows and 2
Microsoft Offices. The affair was widely commented and stirred a wave
of protests. We heard from various sources that the Government, trying
to patch a big hole, is preparing for the impossible: a tax on using
Free Software." Sounds crazy? For now this is true only in Poland (which, btw, has the coolest tld, even if they have a messed up tax system ;)
Hey... I'm all for taxing free products... Just make the tax a certain percentage of the purchase price! In this case, we'll assume a tax of 100%:
100% x FREE = STILL FREE
Several months ago the Polish tresury dept made MS the official OS for doing business with the government. You must us Windows and an un named piece of software to do business with them. I have a friend who works for an exporter in Poland. He is really upset. He is also the main distributor for StarOffice in Poland. Now he sees that he will be shutdown if he does not buy into the MS scam. Look for the same thing to happen here.
Apple Poland has threatened suit if MS and the Polish governement does not make access available for Macs and other OS's.
I guess there was more to the deal than just making MS the official OS.
photosMy Photostream
Well, I don't know anything about Polish Law. But I can see how this might happen: where there are VAT or other taxes on property/transfers, then some sort of fair market value must be used for the taxation. A common method of tax evasion is undervaluing the property.
The Polish tax official obviously thought that Linux and StarOffice were at least as good as MS-Windows and Office. As you going to dispute his good judgement? So they were worth as much, and should be taxed as much.
This is not an easy dilemma for free software to solve. The concept of something good for nothing sounds impossible to many people. Tax officials read that impossibility as tax evasion.
-That ballot had MUCH larger text than the previous version, specifically for the elderly. That's why the punch holes were arranged in that manner with BIG ARROWS pointing to the correct ones.
-Sample ballots were made available in Florida as in all 49 other states.
-There were carbon-based life forms available at the polling places to assist the voters.
-You are a troll.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
So what? Our "great" govt is not going to be scared by some people protesting. They just want our money and they are going to get it - at any cost (to the citizens).
They managed to ruin country with so called reforms and now they HAVE TO grab more money to support the new, "more efficient" system.
Besides, the tax offices are known for their creativity. Three(?) years ago, they decided that CDs included with computer magazines should be taxed (they shouldn't be, as they're the part of publication and publications are still tax-free), and managed to extort such invalid tax for a year; only to have to return it with interest when they lost the case (and who paid for that? of course not the jerks that invented such scheme).
It entirely depends on whether the organization's run by the friends of people in power, then they can borrow money and stuff and not return it. Communism may be formally outlawed here, but the communist way of thinking is still popularn among the governemnt and it's employees.
Oh yes, and we still have a wonderful telecom monopoly, so posting this comment is going to cost me some 25 cents.
--
The moon is not fully subjugated. I demand a second assault wave preceded by a massive nuclear bombardment.
You can't tax bits going over a wire. Instead of buying CDs, simply download your executables over the 'net, hence no tax. "Boxes" of Linux or Star Office are not free, and hence should be taxed as a percentage of the purchase price.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
My point exactly -- unless they are charging an excise tax.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Hmmm, perhaps I should incorporate something about sigs replying to my sig. Good thing sigs don't breed...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Well.. at one time you could have dropped winblows documentation into the water (since it was paper it would have floated) but now.. Geeze.. you don't even get a magazine worth of documentation - *remembering the 30 pounds of documentatuion with MS C++ 7.0*
UPS Sucks
--Fesh
"Citizens have rights. Consumers only have wallets." - gilroy
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
No, the alternative is sometimes that no company survives. Market economics works a lot of the time, but it's not a panacea.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I think it's very common, yes. But not the norm. In the UK there is nothing like the tax we have in Sweden - and I'm not talking about the level of tax (which may differ wildly, of course), but the principle.
It all goes to show that it's quite feasible to tax you for using free software, though. If they can't take the money when you buy the stuff, they will try to take it later. But take it, they will.
Then sell Free software for $200,000 and insist that all equivelent software be taxed for as much.
-benc
Ehm..don't read the newspapers alot? =) A lot of "kronofogdar" (taxmen) are attacked by angry people. Though of course, if it comes to a visit by a kronofogde, you've gone pretty far already.
Well, there's always the matter of the Icelandic government selling the country's national genetic database to a biotech company, and then passing a law preventing anyone else (including the citizens of Iceland themselves) from having access to the data...
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
The truth shall set you free!
* more secure - Windows is harder to crack, because it's not designed so that something like cracking the mouse driver (gpm) gives you root access
This is funny. I remember the mouse my friend bought few years age. I don't remember the manufacturer, It was a small shop anyway. Probably crushed out of market by Microsoft/Logitech.
Back to the point. The mouse driver it came with, had a nice option to map commands to the extra buttons. While testing on NT3.5, we soon found out that the commands bound were run as (drum rolls) Administrator!
So what, it was a third party driver but techically speeking so GPM as well... And I'm pretty sure that NT's drivers have local security holes just waiting for finders. So far nobody has cared to search for them since remote use of NT has been so hard. I call it Security via unusability.
signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
This isn't necessarily government suckage, but Andorra is apparently used as a haven for cigarette smugglers. They have (last time I heard) no import tax on cigarettes, so smugglers have their ciggies shipped to Andorra, where they pick them up and smuggle them into France, Spain, Belgium, and beyond.
If you do the math, it's pretty clear that if all the cigarettes legally shipped to Andorra (1,520,000,000 cigs in 1997) were legally consumed in Andorra (population 60,000), every man, woman, and child in the country would have to smoke 3.5 packs a day for a year.
Michael
Makes perfect sense, from M$'s perspective
Here in Holland, they tax everything which they don't want you to do, eg Sigarets, fule, sex ect.
Of course! The fat cats in Washington whose pockets are lined by big business want to make Free Software a less appealing choice.
If there's a $299 dollar tax on free software product A, and commercial software product B goes for $299 after tax, wouldn't you have a hard time choosing? (If you weren't the slashdot zealot you are!)
I believe you must have paid sales taxes and NOT duty. Computer software & hardware are no longer subject to duty when shipped from the states to Canada
just doesn't have the same "feel" to it, eh?
/*Insert boring sig here*/
You got this soooo wrong...
If the tax office, or worse, the Ministry of Finances, decides it wants to tax something, they just do it.
Example: In the beginning of GSM telephony here, one of the networks made a promotion, giving customers who subscribed 601 minutes free (their "area code" is 601). The taxmen wanted to treat this as a gift and demanded payment of tax from these customers. Didn't matter whether someone used a single minute or not.
The only thing they were utterly unsuccessful with is raising the tax on copyright payments received by writers and journalists. Only because at any attempt even their most friendly newspapers turned against them.
Also please note, that the freedom of speech is understood in European way in Poland. Meaning it's not absolute like Americans have it. Speak against the church and you're guilty of "harming religious feelings", call the govt [censored to avoid jail] and you're in for "slander of the state official".
System changes, but thoughtcrime remains.
--
The moon is not fully subjugated. I demand a second assault wave preceded by a massive nuclear bombardment.
To screw up this badly and do something this stupid. I can just see the dumb polock joke in this story [I'm Polish-ski so I can say that!]
Gee, let's value your Yugo at the price of a Ferrari. Only in Poland.
I suppose the Polock Tax people don't understand the principle of FREE do they as in FREEDOM, which is probably the same fella that assessed Moscow taxes under the Communist regime from the old CCCP.
In that case, I'm happy to live in the Netherlands instead of the fictional country of 'Holland' ;-)
-Do Beowolf-clusters count electronic sheep?
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
Let me guess. Your sense of humour returned a syntax error?
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
At the risk of responding to a troll,
.pl
.pl
Programs written in the Perl language have their filenames end with the suffix
The Top Level Domain for Poland is
For afficianos of the Perl language, the TLD for Poland is pretty darn cool.
Go, and feel like a Tard no more.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Using free software simply enhances your productivity. Since the outcome of your productivity, the 'products' which you sell in the end, will surely be taxed, there is no point in taxing the free tools. Taxing the tools is complicated, taxing the products isn't...
-Do Beowolf-clusters count electronic sheep?
Until now I don't think there has ever been a tax levied on something that someone didn't make money on. Sure - If I bought a copy of Red Hat 7.0 and paid £50 for it then I'd expect some of that £50 to be tax for the book, the box, the time spent packing it, the CD - but not the software since it has no value to Red Hat.
Next thing you know they'll be taxing chocolate and candy higher than water because "you enjoyed the candy more"!
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
What's 100% of NOTHING. ;-)
;)
Besides, you are taxed if you BUY a distribution from a STORE. Here in Ontario Canada, if you bought Linux in a store, you would be charged 7% PST and 8% GST. But it's FREE software...
In a store, though, you are not buying that Linux distro. You are buying the packaging, the medium, the service of bringing it to the store and to you, the clerk earning minimum wage that sneeres that you as you walk out of the store, and a lot of other tangable things. Again, the SOFTWARE is free, the retail packaging is not.
It would be widely unfair if, for instance, they imposed a tax simply for running software. That is silly and will never happen.
Think people. Fuck, it's like the whole world is having this massive brain drain. Another person posted, already, that when shipping their Linux CD's they over-value on the shipping label and some countries duties will add upwards of $50 onto the price... but you ARE paying for shipping.
Slackware 7.1 cost me $5.00. $2.00 for the blank CD, and roughly $3.00 in ISP connection fees. ALL of that was taxed and paid in full. So no matter HOW you get the software, you WILL be taxed for it. But you did get a service (your ISP) or a product (the CD) from someone which the government, in our world, has a right to tax.
Bye now
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Not all the software that could be made has been made, thus there is scarcity for software. If there were no scarcity in software, it would be free just like air. As in "yea i'll pay you to make me something that I can already get for free". Also, software prices are no less exempt from reflecting this scarcity then anything else. The cost of producing the software, is reflected in the price. If you get no payment/utility from making your software then you loose the oportunity cost value for that software. I have no idea were the hell your getting this sofware has no market value thing. The market value for something is determined by what people will pay for it. It I could and did sell bottled air for $100 then that's the market value.
here in Australia basic food stuffs are tax free. Does that mean if i distribute code carved into potatoes that it can't be taxed? Or will it still be deemed equivalent to MS Office?
* more features - unrefutable
Well, a bare windows install has no features compared to my debian install
* easier to use - yep - no XF86Config for Windows users thank you
Setup!=use
* faster - things like KDE are *much* slower than Windows
kde=!linux
* more stable - the Windows GUI is much more stable than than the Linux GUI.
This point shows that you are troll
* more support for hardware, software, etc.
true
* more secure - Windows is harder to crack, because it's not designed so that something like cracking the mouse driver (gpm) gives you root access
Sure, MUA holes are much better, give us a break...
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
Prop 13 destroyed the education system in california since the education system is financed mainly through property tax.
A math professor, ardent realist, is asked why he hangs a horseshoe up in his class. ... but I'm told it works anyway."
"For good luck."
"But I thought you didn't believe in that sort of thing."
"I don't
I am not making this up.
I'm not that clever.
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
We, as thinking, rational people, have to stand on the fact that morality and ethics are universal, and that what's "true" for one country, MUST be "true" for another. I'm so sick of this relativistic bullshit. Right is right, and wrong is wrong - just because a population/country has a history of statist oppression doesn't mean that "it's OK for them".
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
That said, who are we (as Americans, probably the majority of the readers on Slashdot) to say how another government should be run?
Well, in this case there is one good reason - if this way of taxing software actually works it can be reimplemented in other parts of the world. And I hope that is not something you would like to happen...
Your sig is stupid and wrong, dickhead.
Your are stupid and wrong, AC dickhead.
Unfortunately, none, as we Swedes have a long and glorious tradition of bending over whenever someone wants to buttfuck us ....
>the software is free, and no benefit is directly conferred .
Free-beer vs free-speech. English is a merchant's language, so words with a meaning as strong as freedom have also a monetary meaning, but "Free software is about freedom"
Try to reason with French or German words:
libre != gratuit
frei != kostenlos
As Free Software ("Logiciel Libre", not "costless software") can be buyed, it can be taxed.
>similarly Windows is in many ways more valuable than Linux (from a management perspective; in addition, the product is more advanced too - IIS, for example, since it is integrated into the NT kernel, is faster than Apache).
Is that a troll ? Well, I hadn't benchmarked myself, so I can't tell if Apache is really slowest than IIS, but one thing is sure: IIS is more buggy, and a too tight integration into a kernel of such a buggy thing is a sure way to crash the whole system frequently.
sigmentation fault
I think hey! was referring to Adam Smith's puzzle over why diamonds
should be valued more highly than water, when the first is a dispensable
trinket and the last is the most urgent necessity. The answer is that
value has more to do with availability than usefulness.
You might like to read the original article (in Polish) http://www.computerworld.pl/wiadomosci/archiwum/3/ 1/3146.asp, plus the kuro5hin story that this story was taken from originally.
Free Anne Tomlinson!!
Microsoft did get in trouble for something like this!
If you want to make fun of my government.. All I can say is, "Be my guest!"
Apparently holding hotly contested elections is not enough to keep my government (the US) in line, so maybe a good dose of redicule will help. You might begin with the US's diabolically clever plan to force encryption research overseas under the guise of regulations to restrict the export of "encryption technology". Afterall, we can't let ourselves be outdone by a tiny little country like Poland. We've been jealous of all those Polish jokes for much of this century, and time is running out for us to take that title away from Poland before the century is out.
Adrian
How are they planning to do that? I for one wouldn't mind paying 50% taxes on a 0 dollar purchase...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
my question is there is no pie to take a piece of if its free, so why tax? I dont understand it really? Why are they so worried about free software??? Are they loosing that much taxable income from people not buying MS product ????or is MS complaining about people not buying software in the Country>?
If we refuse to be flexible, we are in effect opting out of the game of life. The world moves on without us.
Next on the agenda: taxing the air we breathe.
"Its to ensure good air quality," states one government official.
What, me worry?
The way I see it, the problem here is the current mindset that the value of nearly everything can (and must) be given after a $ sign. The tax officer sees a product that is definitely valuable, assumes it must have a price (or at least that a price tag can be calculated), and proceeds to tax it accordingly. It all makes perfect sense as far as he's concerned! It makes good sense as well to all the companies that won't take free software because "if it's free, it can't be good!" (Which really means: if it had some value, somebody would charge a price for it.)
Next thing you know, they'll be taxing you for having friends! I mean, wouldn't you consider your friends an asset? Why not taxing it then? Or maybe they'll eventually understand that money isn't all there is. They might even someday understand what free software is all about! Or maybe not.
--
--
sig is gone.
...demand a sun tax! We nolonger can afford to compete against this free source of energy!
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
my question is there is no pie to take a piece of if its free, so why tax? I dont understand it really? Why are they so worried about free software??? Are they loosing that much taxable income from people not buying MS product ????or is MS complaining about people not buying software in the Country>? I dont think a goverment has a right to tax free anything, if they feel they should then they will just piss of their own people and if the country is a democracy the people should just vote them out. Its ashame not thinks about the good of the people anymore... just the good of their pockets.
If we refuse to be flexible, we are in effect opting out of the game of life. The world moves on without us.
No it shouldn't. The point was that it was wrong to tax free software - it's like taxing tap water just because Evian is free, but in any case if it was right, they shouldn't tax it at the MS Office rate because it's not as good.
Free Anne Tomlinson!!
i tried to run linuxnews.pl and nothing happened.
bash$./linuxnews.pl
error: are you a fuckin' idiot
bash$
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
First off governments want to be able to get their software free and thus represent the biggest center of software pirates around. Now when people start developing free open source software they want to be able to introduce some sort of tax that basically invalidates the whole process.
It seems strange that as an open source developer I would be taxed because I use the open source software. Also, if the software is being taxed so that the end price is the same as a commerical piece of software it is one way of killing the whole process or maybe creating an underground that is maintained by all of the intellectual minds in their country.
Taxes on open source is wrong - it is like taxing a charity and I reckon we should start a campaign on this issue.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Since there's a few newbies wondering what's going one here:
;-
The Top Level Domain ¥or tld, as in ©com, ©us, etc© for Poland is ©pl , which also happens to be the extension for Perl scripts© CmdrTaco loves Perl; it's what Slashdot is based on©
From what I understand, the "tax" on free software is more like what we in the US would call a "tariff" or a "duty©" The Polish gov't taxes imported goods as do most national governments© The screwed up part is that they're saying since free software is worth the same to computer users as non-free software, it should be taxed at the same market value© Hence taxing a copy of Star Office at the same rate as MS Office©
In a way it's almost a compliment, as the goverment is basically admitting that free software is just any other programs available© ¥okay so it's a stretch but let's look on the bright side of things, OK?
-the wunderhorn
#define OH_YES_INDEED 1
Karma: Bored. (Thinking about resurrecting the "Anyone else is an imposter" joke.)
Q: How many Polish government officials does it take to inforce a tax on free software?
A: The same number that it takes on horseback to charge German tanks.
What in the world with the government of Poland think of next? Lets just make sure that it is the government of Poland that takes the flak for all this. Anyone watching the news during the Eighties cannot have missed the courage shown by the people of Poland during the fall of communism. Adrian
Actually, speaking from my personal experience (about five years ago), I can tell, that what you stated above is highly unfair. The law regarding non-profit organisations (at the time, I am referring to) used to be quite well conceived and rather lax. The latter made the whole system prone to abuse by unscrupulous criminals. But - at the same time - non-profit organisations did enjoy reasonable privileges and were rather advantaged.
Anyway, they organisation I had been dealing with could do its job - and this is what it was all about.
I think, you are just bitching too much.
Regards,
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
No, you got it quite wrong. The rule of the thumb is that if a free service is rendered to you (mean business) you are supposed to figure out its value and pay the tax accordingly.
If you state no value or decline to provide relevant data, the tax board will do you this service and establish the value using their own methods.
This is a method for busting certain tax evasions schema (I can provide examples, if you want me to). They just overdid it. But this has nothing to do with evil goverment supporting even more evil corporations or forcing price-collusion.
BTW. At this very moment http://www.gazetaprawna.infor.pl/ (Polish 'Law Yournal', only for those reading in Polish and not afraid of legalese) holds short note debunking the issue.
The points are:
1. You should pay tax on free (beer) programs (as I stated above - this is the general rule)
2. The tax man got it quite wrong and base value was established in wrong way.
3. You can avoid paying taxes on free software if you take certain measures (the suggest, what to do).
Disclaimer: I don't live in Poland anymore, but I used to. By owning a business there I got quite familiar with local tax system. It sucked, but mostly because taxes suck in general.
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
If I was in the desert and hadn't drank any water in days and all I had was a diamond ring. You bet your ass I would give that diamond ring for a gallon of water.
But if I lived on a lake and had all the water I wanted for free, I'd have no need to part with the diamond ring.
Paraguay's cooler, methinks. ;-)
--
Unselfish actions pay back better
There's a vast difference between encouragement and coercion. Which of these do you really think fits the role of the government when it comes to estate taxes?
Riddle me this: if the government stopped taxing large gifts, exactly how many seconds would it take before all executive salaries were eliminated and replaced by weekly "gifts"? 'nuff said.
Not nearly enough. The government could easily exclude payment in kind, and it would mean that if you happen to WIN something, you'd actually get to keep it. State lotteries are particularly bad. The government keeps half the money to begin with, and then taxes winnings at 50%.
Gee, I don't suppose the county uses that money to build the roads that you drive on? But what if you don't even drive that car? In that case, what the US really ought to do instead is charge $1 or 2 per gallon gasoline tax
Between the city and state taxes, it's not that far off from $1 per gallon. Aside from that, the tax doesn't make sense anyway, because vehicle owners get charged according to the current value of the car - just because the value decreases doesn't mean it's driven any less. I'm also concerned, because they used to post the amount of taxes being paid per gallon at every gasoline pump, but that information is no longer as readily available.
Americans bitch too much about taxes. We have it easy compared to most countries
I don't think it's as simple as "bitching about taxes." It's objecting to the notion that the government has to be this HUGE, wasteful, bureaucracy whose endless programs are turning us into a psuedo-socialistic state. We're turning from a nation of self-reliant individuals into a mass of dependency.
Are you effing serious?
Oh my God am I ever glad I left that country for the USA for GOOD.
Nice to know the Canadian Government believes free software to be worth $220. That's probably what Corel is charging them.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
IIS, for example, since it is integrated into the NT kernel, is faster than Apache Linux+TUX 1.0 beats Win2k+IIS5 on a 3:1 ratio on the same hardware (from Dell). The test was with WebSpec99 or 2000 I couldn't remember. The story was posted in LinuxToday a few while ago.
On the other hand, IIS is only faster when serving static pages, but TUX (and Apache) is better for dynamic content Your post just shows your ignorance
-- Microsoft, Inc. http://www.microsoft.com
the fine art of plucking every feather from a goose without the goose wiggling. I believe some French king made this quote. Essentially governments invent several thousand little taxes, little subsidies, little pieces of corruption. It is not worth your time to fight each little one(even a free software tax) because the relief gained(i.e. not paying the tax) is less than the cost of the tax. You have to fight taxation and government meddling in all cases. Most importantly you need other people to support you. And if things get really bad you have to throw the tea into the harbor.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
Wait, doesn't Microsoft already do this on behalf of the govt in the US as it is? I mean, last time I bought a computer from a major vendor, I had to pay a non-refundable Windows tax...
Brielle
True enough. I was going to try to figure out the per-minute fee break-even point, but I got distracted with work. Still, the post I replied to was from a Canadian. I'm just an ignorant 'merican, but I thought Canada has flat-rate 'net access like we do down here.
Your ungrammatical response to my accurate and insightful comment has opened my eyes ! I renounce my evil trolling ways and declare my allegiance to the Church of Bongo. Persuant to Church teachings, I will immediately start anally raping barnyard animals.
As your new God, and in accordance with The Teaching, I hereby instruct you to go out and eliminate irritating famous people. Also don't forget to keep trolling. Trolling is Good, and although not appreciated by the evil "politically-correct" blind Hethen of this world, Trolling will bring you much power and wealth in a future incarnation.
Which would mean that if I need software to do a specific thing and I decide to program it myself, I could be (theoretically) taxed for it. Right? I do benefit from the software, so there's no difference.
Nobody believes the official spokesman, but everybody trusts an unidentified source. -- Ron Nesen
We, as thinking, rational people, have to stand on the fact that morality and ethics are universal, and that what's "true" for one country, MUST be "true" for another. I'm so sick of this relativistic bullshit. Right is right, and wrong is wrong - just because a population/country has a history of statist oppression doesn't mean that "it's OK for them". Then what is right? Is taxation in any form right? Why? If taxation is wrong, what makes it wrong? Why is one form of government right when another is wrong? And why is the taxation of free software a universal wrong (not that you explicitly said it was, but that was certainly the implication). Can you support your post with something?
Your post got me wondering how long it would take to download the CD image. A CD holds about 650 MB, and with a 56K dial-up getting 5KB/s download speed, that works out to about 36 hours per CD. It seems to me a CD burner would "pay for itself" pretty quickly...
First off, I am American, incidentally..
And yes, I know where governments come from. But see, I'm an American in Polish government. I don't have any clue how their system is set up. I don't even know whether it's a republic, a dictatorship, etc. And I bet that 90% of the people who have been posting about this atrocity are just like me in these respects.
People here get so caught up in defending Linux that they forget that there's a world outside it.
Feel free to moderate this as flamebait, I'm sure you will.
Since then, I've come to determine the only countries that are actually...
Hey, what about Tibet? ... oh, wait, they got invaded.
Residents of Poland,
Download the ISOs of any free software you want.
Have the man try and tax that!
If you need ISOs, I will make them for you and put them to you.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
And once again, how exactly are the planning to put a value on free software? Comparison to microsloth products?
I'm not intending this to be Microsoft bashing, BUT that wouldn't be a bad business strategy by a competitor. Incur a cost on a free product! One of Linux's selling points is that it is free. Placing a cost on it will definetely decrease peoples willingness to experiment with Linux. I know that one of the factors why I tried out Linux was that it was free.
..........FULL STOP.
Air Conditioners, expecialy the small, one per room, never maintained, ACs you find in hotel rooms do nasty things to the outside enviroment when they make the inside enviroment nice and comfortable.
Since making the inside comfortable (or having that option, with in room ACs) also does damage to the outside enviroment, then it should be taxed - or at least is a resonable excuse for a tax.
The concept is rather similar to several of the taxes we have in Sweden. You are often taxed by the perceived value of something that you own or have the use of. For example, we pay a property tax that is related to what our house MAY bring IF we sell it. That is, if you own a small house by the seaside, you are taxed by what similar houses have been sold for - even if you have owned your house for 50 years, and never made a penny out of it. In such a context, it's not at all hard to understand the Polish reasoning: the value of StarOffice is about the same as the value of MS Office (which is true, btw), so you should pay a similar amount for having the use of it. Of course, it's absurd, but many taxes are...
Why does this idea have the same ring in my ear that the USPS internet tax does?
I can't tell from context, but I hope you realize that the USPS Internet Tax is a hoax.&l t;/p>
Yes, I meant in gradeschool .... at least, that's what his webpage says (although that might be his 'alter-ego', Omar ....)
Which would mean that if I need software to do a specific thing and I decide to program it myself, I could be (theoretically) taxed for it. Right? I do benefit from the software, so there's no difference.
Let's forget now about common sense and logic and apply the other way of thinking - let's call it tax logic:
Well, your argument sounds logical - but not to someone from the Ministry of Finance. If there is a way of squeezing a few more coins from the tax payer they'll do it no matter how insane it would be.
We do. I would also argue that anybody who is a serious enough computer geek to want to download the CD image would also have DSL, or cable internet which would decrease the DL time.
Too bad you have the communist disease into your DNA...
If I do it must be on my mother's side -- my Dad smuggled himself out of China because he didn't want to live in a Communist society. Oh, yes, and sticks and stones may break my bones.
market value is determined by a balance between offer and demand...
Which is exactly my point, expressed in jargon of course.
and then your sig:
PHP consulting for US$ 20 hourly. E-mail me now!
Hmmm. Let's apply some pure economic reasoning to this, shall we? Since first class web developers command much higher consulting fees, what does this tell us about your coding skills?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
In this case it seems similar to the USA tax concept of taxing based on value -- if you win a $20,000 car in a contest, you have to pay tax on that $20,000 value (almost as if you had that amount of additional income, except for some gift incantations in the tax code). Even though you paid nothing for the car, you're taxed on the value of the benefit.
Except this is like winning a Yugo and paying tax on a Porche. If you can convince me that Sun sells Star Office for the same price as MS Office and that this is the norm, then I guess you have a point.
couldn't it be said that since Linux is legally defined as being equal to Windows, then Microsoft is clearly overpricing its software. If Linux can be free, why can't Windows? Someone in Poland should sue Microsoft for their insane overpricing.
This was the postal service, and it was definetly duty, I had to go to the post office to pick it up, and they charged it on the spot before they would give me my package.
Still an exploitable loophole. For example, IWON.com -- the more you surf, the more chances you can win. So switch an ordinary company to a prize-based business model -- the more work you do, the more chances you can win. Even if you managed to build a law that excludes typical weekly wages, I doubt you could prevent bonuses and non-salary compensation from being relabled as tax-exempt "winnings".
just because the value decreases doesn't mean it's driven any less.True. I would guess your local government wanted a "progressive" tax plan. More of that social encouragement (coercion) at work. Perhaps you should run for office?
they used to post the amount of taxes being paid per gallon at every gasoline pumpWhere do you live? In Maryland the tax (48c) is posted on every pump, just as you mention. 48 cents out of $1.50 or more is much less than you pay in other industrial nations.
What you buy when you "buy" software is the right to use the software.
You also buy the right to tech. support, and in the case of free software, this is all you buy. To use ESR's example, how many people would plunk down a few hundred dollars for M$ Office if they knew there would be no support for the product? Of course, in this particular example, they are now charging extra for tech. support. But I guarantee you that if M$ announced that there would be no future support for Office, they wouldn't be able to give it away. My point is though, that with free (and open source) software, if you decide to buy it, you're really paying for documentation and support, not the right to use the code. And it's true for non-free software as well, to a certain point.
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Similar sorts of things happen in the UK tax system. The taxable value of a car (e.g. supplied to an employee) is based on a list price, and not on the price that the company paid for the car. The list price and the price paid can differ very markedly, and never to the tax-payer's benefit. Why? Months of correspondance with Inland Revenue never got me to the point of understanding it.
If you speak French, the coolest tld is .nu ;-)
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Bzzzt. Wrong. It gave the company exclusive rights to access anonymized medical records. I can still access my medical records. It's just that no other company can get a hold of it.
This is because Icelanders have a tendency to emulate their neighbour if he's successful, but don't fully realise that there might not be a market for more of the same given the tiny population. The usual experience has been that both lose.
What the governement was trying to prevent is a goldrush that would've killed off the budding genetic industry before it ever took off. So this is actually a Good Thing(TM).
My spoon is too big.
This statement is flawed. We both agree that the license agreement decreases the utility of the software, but it also decreases the market value. I have been involved in the acquistion of full rights to software packages, and normally these deals are in the millions, albeit usually on paper in the form of stock. This is much higher than the retail or subcription costs of the software that is being acquired.
Quite simply, to purchase full rights to a piece of software, you had better be prepared to pay for the entire cost of development. This is true, even in the Open Source and Fre Software world, where you cannot get full rights to software, but are limited by the agreement given to you. If you want less restrictive rights (such as the right to use code without having to expose your own), then you must pay more.
-no broken link
...that there's no .bas domain, as as a skilled QuickBasic programmer this would be extremely cool.. :)
The Master Of Muppets,
CAPTAIN: TAKE OFF EVERY "SIG"!!
M$ will want a buck for every window that pops up on a screen.
No because Xerox invented windowed screens and menaced Apple and Micro$oft to sue the pants out of them if one ever sues the other...
Well, I don't know anything about Polish Law. But I can see how this might happen: where there are VAT or other taxes on property/transfers, then some sort of fair market value must be used for the taxation. A common method of tax evasion is undervaluing the property. (emphasis mine).
Well, this brings up an interesting point. What you buy when you "buy" software is the right to use the software. The market value of that right, like any other good, depends on the balance between its utility and scarcity.
Normally, people are willing to pay more for something with greater utility, but this ignores scarcity. Nothing has more utility than air but you can't very well tax that as it has no market value. I suppose it should not be surprising, but it is ironic that license agreements actually increase the market value of software by decreasing its utility. That is by restricting user rights to redistribute in particular, the owners of the software create scarcity where none naturally exists.
So, this isn't a case of Grandma's diamond ring (which coincidentally has practically no utility) which has a market value equivalent to more or less similar rings. Free software has no market value, although it has great utility. Like the air, it is in abundant supply and so it is free (as in gratis) despite its utility.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Um, Free Software is a charity. If the IRS should get involved, it seems that Free Software authors should get a tax break (I certainly wouldn't mind one).
-- The Sheep --
The packaging service has been charged for and constitutes an economic transaction.
If www.cheapbytes.com charges $3.99 for sending you RH7.0 they have activated the taxation framework that will tax you on the $3.99 of the invoice total value.
Note that cheapbytes or any other vendor will(!) charge you something for packaging and retailing the product, even if that amount is rather nominal.
The tax level must be applied to $3.99 and not in reference to another software product that looks similar.
If the taxation is not computed on the $3.99 invoice total and is not applying the standard rate for that particular product class and country of origin, you should ask the taxing authority to review their decision.
If they fail to review their decision, you may consider litigating, in which case you will most certainly win, as this decision violates numerous treaties, including the ones covering WTO agreements, and local laws that implement these treaties.
Unfortunately, it will cost you well in excess of $3.99 to ensure that the law will be applied.
If you import millions of copies, this kind of issues will most certainly be resolved to your fullest satisfaction; most likely, with the assistance of the State Department. In all other cases you're f*cked.
Even if you are Polish nationality, it's almost impossible to get a polish domain... the only company that registers them, NASK, is bureaucratic, monopolistic, sluggish firm.
.pl, you have to know whom to pay bribes. (pardon, extra-costs).
So... if you want to get domain in
Plain old sigh.
Mind you, you COULD do worse: you could drop Windoze CD's in the bay, and get fined for dumping toxic waste
So buy either an "Enterprise" Linux system - or one CD set per PC. And make sure you get a proper receipt for the Software (-CDs).
Or let a professional company issue you an official "Enterprise license" - in which they state that "you" have aquired an enterprise-wide license to use the software - licenses details provided on the installation media. Let them charge a nominal fee ($1 or so) for issuing this license (technically the cost for printing and shipping) - and make sure they provide a proper receipt.
With this you can prove the actual value of the software (and licenses). A proven value cannot be taxed by a tax officer - he will have to guess the value if no value is given. The latter is standard procedure in nearly any country.
I for example sometimes buy the currentmost (Debian/OpenBSD) CDs - for convenience and to deduct these costs OFF my tax (training material blabla).
This is the dumbest idea a govn't can come up with. Taxing free software installed on a machine means:
1. kids can't play with spare computers. That is, you are dumbifying your youngsters.
2. Some computers will prematurely go to waste because it doesn't worth the tax.
This above are serious indication of what these type of taxes will cut down national GDP, resulting in even less tax revenue, and produce less technical people means the quality of human resources is cut back. What a way to slow down your nation!
I don't know if the laws of Poland are on-line. Feel free to search for the tax laws of Poland.
In this case it seems similar to the USA tax concept of taxing based on value -- if you win a $20,000 car in a contest, you have to pay tax on that $20,000 value (almost as if you had that amount of additional income, except for some gift incantations in the tax code). Even though you paid nothing for the car, you're taxed on the value of the benefit.
Good thing they didn't try to tax it based on the 1980 price of Unix...although it's tempting to try to sell it to that government at that price...
Funny they moderated me as flaimbait and not you, who in a way requested it. Guess I was a bit "over the top" Que sara, sara. Yes i totally agree that you should always be informed before voicing your opinion. I was taking offense at the implication that because a person is American, they should not voice an opinion on how a government should be run. That is cultural bigatry, wether a part of that culture or not.
USA-Democracy is 270 million YESes and NOes a day, not one every four years.
The solution to this (from the government's perspective) would be rather simple: The item in question will be taxed based either the value of equivalent software, or on the purchase price, whichever is greater.
This weekend I just finished "Free For All" which was reviewed on /. In the last chapter, the author makes some predictions that the current "system" is going to be very threatened by software that flows freely "like dandelion seeds blowing in the wind." Lost tax revenue is going to be a large one. Governments are going to do what they can to tax free software (governments can't resist the urge to tax anything they can get away with). This is a pretty big threat to free software. You can bet the current commercial software giants are going to put pressure behind such efforts. (Which reminds me, we also need to get rid of soft money (the other book I've been reading: How to Overthrow the Government by Arianna Huffington, an advocate for campaign finance reform)).
(My quick review Free for All: If you already know the history of free software/open source, there will be little in this book to learn that is worth the $23, although I did learn some things about BSD history I didn't know. I couldn't picture the general population being interested in most of the detailed explanations. There are a few sloppy mistakes such as confusing free speech vs. free beer in some chapters while explaining it in other chapters. Only in the last chapter does the author attempt to add insights instead of going over dry facts.)
I would like to introduce the Free, But Taxed, Software License. It is essentially the same as the GPL with one additional provision. If you represent, in any way, a government that taxes free software on any basis other than the actual amount paid for the media, you are required to pay the full amount collected in taxes to the copyright holder of the software in order to use it yourself. If the media in question contained software from multiple copyright holders, you are required to pay each of them in full. The copyright holder may agree to waive this fee in exchange for a public apology and repealing the tax.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
only in Canada do you have to pay duty on imported comuter stuff, but other NA countries pay nothing.
<SARCASM> I'm *so* proud to be Canadian! </SARCASM>
AC comments get piped to
they are taxing it below its actual value.
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I keep reading that the Polish government is stupid... I don't think this is about stupidity. I really think that the government doesn't want to lose money on this. I don't know how much of the tax money comes from software, but I guess it must be a big sum if they have to do this.
Think about it: if you receive $$$ for every purchase of Micro$oft warez, and everyone starts buying free software, you gotta get that money from somewhere else.
Let's hope Red Hat, SuSE or some other cool Linux company comes out with a clever plot to avoid this.
The moral of this: not stupid, at all; most of the time, they are cunningly evil.
-----
joaquin
so instead of having the most efficient company survive, you have one hand chosen by the government? sounds great
Then it sounds like smart buyers in Poland will have to buy "naked" PCs, and then install the software themselves.
An even better way to dodge the VAT would be to set up a service that sold bundles of unassembled OEM components known to work well together. Hmmm... could the VAT actually be a good thing, in that it would encourage DIY and tinkering in this way?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
A friend went out to Latvia to work a couple of years back as a teaching assitant for English in a school. (I still haven't got a straight answer as to why he did it).
He claims to have ended up advising the education ministry on how to set English exams and the syllabus apparently being one of the more qualified people in the country. He had other horror stories, apparently they really don't like the Russians.
They were purchased in a store then I could see that could be taxed at the value they where purchased. But not the the cost of M$ windodws and office. That is plain stupid. If I did not purchased but burned the cd I should be taxed at the cost of the CD.
Kids always think their dad does the coolest thing. I had a friend who's dad was a doctor. He said it was the best because he could be sick for nothing. My dad is a minister so I told him I could be good for nothing.
Barter, the trade of item or service for another item or service, is taxable in the United States. This, however is not a trade, therefore no tax on Barter. If you consider it's value taxable, like an incentive gift for a donation, it's the market price. In this case, the market price is $0.00. You cannot legally tax it in the US.
----------------------
Folks,
The truth is that ANY government is only concerned about how much tax money they can collect. In te US. e get taxed to death! Federal tax, social security tax, medicare tax, state tax, city tax, sales tax, gas tax, (And if you are lucky enough to work in the city of Denver they tax you another $5.00 just because you work in the city & county of Denver,CO), death tax, capitol gains tax, any I forgot?
A free software tax just seems like a logical extention! Especially since the big corporations basically have a lot of say in what laws our government passes. The big software houses will have heavy compitition from free software if they don't put a stop to it. So no matter who gets to be president (Gore or Bush) this country is is serious trouble! Democrats are NOTORIOUS for taxing the blood out of us! Republicans will tax us depending on what their big corporate backers tell them to.
For those who are U.S. citizens you should see by now from this current ellection that neither of the two major parties can be trusted. Both will screw us. It is time for third parties to be allowed in the political process. Whether it be the Libertarian party, the Green Party, The Constituional party etc.. IMHO I think people should start backing third parties, ANY third party. At least Harry Browne said he would abolish the Income Tax!
U.S. Citizens, Rise up! Take back your country!
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Okay, if a product is free, then they want to tax it at the price of an equivalent product. I can follow that logic, even as twisted as it may be.
Here's the solution: Sell open source software. Charge a penny for it. Add 30% tax to the penny and round down -- it still costs one cent.
Governments need to learn that there are some things they cannot control. The public can find ways around nearly every regulation that isn't enforced with violence.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
...as the policy a company i may or may not work for has on software. Freeware is not allowed to be installed on any company computers because it may violate certain COPYWRITES. Wtf!?!? Free software may violate a copywrite? Its free.... makes you wonder how disallusioned these corporate and government types are. Do they even know what they are talking about when they try to lay down policy?
"sex on tv is bad, you might fall off..."
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
This is meant to be a means of protection against tax abuse, e.g if you sell a car, you have to pay tax taking as a base the price you sold the car at or the "table value", . Now this protection has become a weapon against users of free software, which is a thing with it's own culture with little care of revenue board officers' concern about specific laws, tax offences, commercial gain, taxes etc.
-- http://www.argante.org -- *the* OS
Candy and chocolate are not needed
You clearly have not tried the right kind of chocolates. :-) And, besides, what does necessity have to do with taxation? Taxes should be imposed to support (if you do indeed support) a government's involvement in a process. I suspect that the government is more involved in keeping water clean and drinkable than it is in making chocolates so gosh darn yummy, so water should, in fact, be taxed more. If you don't like it, just drink the dirty water instead.
Yeah, some enterprising young Polish hacker ought to set up perl.pl or maybe simply pl.pl as the world's Perl resource site. That would probably be worth something to somebody, even though I don't agree with using ccTLD's to mean other things.
(OK, so somebody's already thought of perl.pl, but the site sucks.)
Constitutionally Correct
No offense, but after reading this article, I think Polish Jokes will be on the rise.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Ehm,
:-)
They havn't figured that out yet but as soon as that is done, Holland will be the 1st country which has tax on sex.
But for now, you'r quite save here
How can you tax something that is Free? Using the tax you would pay on another product just aint right... If there is no money being made why tax? And how do you Tax a free product anyhoo if no one buys it how do u track its usage. Stuff like this makes me angry
If we refuse to be flexible, we are in effect opting out of the game of life. The world moves on without us.
Isn't that a lot like taxing me for all of the valuable code that I have obtained by writing it myself?
In more common terms, isn't that like getting taxed on furniture that you made for yourself? Or food you prepared for yourself?
Actually, that's exactly like getting taxed for the painting your amateur artist sister made and gave to you as a gift.
sig fault
Obviously this is ridiculous, and the tax office don't understand the situation:
the software is free, and no benefit is directly conferred (i.e. it's always free, so there's no benefit) - it is not analagous to a 'free' company car or whatever
the valuations are incorrect: Star Office is not as good as MS Office (this is not flamebait, this is simple statement of the facts); similarly Windows is in many ways more valuable than Linux (from a management perspective; in addition, the product is more advanced too - IIS, for example, since it is integrated into the NT kernel, is faster than Apache).
Free Anne Tomlinson!!
I've been forced to pay tax on free items before. When I was in university I organised a bulk purchase of some CAD software at a reduced price, to be shipped from the US to Canada. Not a problem, under NAFTA, software can be inported duty free.
However, each package (75 of them) said on the outside "Free metric/imperial ruler included!". They dough brains at the border decided that the rulers were worth $10 apiece and rulers are NOT duty free.
So customs essentially help the software hostage: I was forced to cough up the import duty an $750 worth of rulers before I could receive the software with the "free" rulers.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
Before the whole free beer / free speech argument comes up, let me point out that the article specificly said they were talking about both kinds of free, so the scenario I mention *is* relevant.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Thanks, Poland, for helping to sell Open Source and promoting your own indigenous culture of sharing. I know that's not what your apparatchiks meant to do, but I still have to give credit where credit is due even if it comes by way of the Law of Unintended Consequences. Hee hee hee hee hee!
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Metropolitan France is basically European France. Offilially, it does not include French Guiana (.gf), Guadeloupe (.gp), Martinique (.mq), New Caledonia (.nc), French Polynesia (.pf), Saint Pierre and Miquelon (.pm), Reunion (.re), French Southern Territories (.tf), Wallis and Futana Islands (.wf), or Mayotte (.yt). Properly, all of these overseas "territories" are integral parts of France...
If the government proposes to tax free software at a value equivilent to, say, MS software; it is then in the government's best interest that the price of MS software be high.
Anyone else have a problem with government having a vested interest in product pricing?
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
However, free (gratis) software is an entirely different thing. You cannot sell it, because no one will pay for what you can get for $0. If anyone can get it at zero cost, its taxable value is zero. It's not like a company car or a lottery prize, which only a few privileged people get.
Will you get a valuable benefit from free software? Sure! But is that benefit taxable? If it is, the next thing will be taxing fuel-efficient cars, because you spend less money buying fuel for them; that's a valuable benefit, too!
Yes, the US estate tax is intentionally coercive. It encourages the rich to distribute their wealth charitably rather than create lazy inheritors. It's not fair capitalism, but neither is reposessing people's houses, building a baseball stadium, and giving it to a rich frat boy with good family connections. Of the two, I'm more opposed to corporate giveaways.
GIVE you a car, free and clear, the transaction still requires that you pay taxesRiddle me this: if the government stopped taxing large gifts, exactly how many seconds would it take before all executive salaries were eliminated and replaced by weekly "gifts"? 'nuff said.
my car is paid off, yet every year, I still have to pay the countyGee, I don't suppose the county uses that money to build the roads that you drive on? But what if you don't even drive that car? In that case, what the US really ought to do instead is charge $1 or 2 per gallon gasoline tax, like all the other western nations, so that people pay a fair share for their use of public resources.
Americans bitch too much about taxes. We have it easy compared to most countries (with a similar standard of living). Heck, even compared to many lower-ranked countries -- wasn't that the whole point of this Poland article?Since prostitutes charge for sex, and married people get sex for free, they should pay a tax on sex, based on what prostitutes charge.
I want to go to Andorra, Andorra, Andorra,
I want to got to Andorra it's the land that I adore,
They spent four dollars and ninety cents,
On armaments and their defense,
Have you ever heard of such confidence,
Andorra hip harrah!
-Pete Seeger
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Thank god I don't actually live in the county... I just hope none of the county commissioners hear about this... they're just dumb enough to try to pull this off.
"Let's see... you have 4 linux boxes... that's $12/per box plus our $20 'Save the Bengals/Save the Reds' fund...
Hi! This is the Sig, blatantly attached to the end of this comment.
They don't say how the tax is evaluated. If it were a sales tax, then they would just tax shrink-wrapped CDs and be done with it. It sounds to me like it is probably a "property tax". This is where you have to evaluate the value of all your property and pay a percentage on it. These are the most unfair types of taxes, because when you fall into poverty, not only do you lose your source of income, you have to continue paying taxes on all the stuff you own.
Assuming that they have extensive property taxes, their problem has nothing to do with attitudes towards free software. They need a fairer tax system accross the board--either a sales tax or an income tax; something non regressive.
Since it would be difficult for taxpayers to reform the system right away, they are forced to argue that the software has no value (obviously not true) or that it has less value than NT/office (may or may not be true, difficult to evaluate). The officer probably looked at the systems, reasoned that they do essentially the same thing, and evaluated them the same. It's actually kind of a backhanded compliment to the packages in question. For now, the taxpayer might want to ask for separate evaluations on the hardware and software, so that they can dispute one but not the other. What's tax court like on Poland?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
You would think the reciept would be good enough to prove the price. Grrrrr! wasn't NAFTA supposed to fix this kind of thing? It would be good for the US to be able to import more of your timber.
If you have something, someone will think of a way to take it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Value added tax is defined as "A consumption tax which is levied at each stage of production based on the value added to the product at that stage."
VAT is not based upon what you paid for the product (or service), and it is difficult to assess this value on this type of imported goods because a) it is free; and b) it wasnt made there so the audit trail is tougher to follow. An overly simplistic view is you buy some raw materials for $5 and produce something that costs $10. VAT is added to the $5 of value you "added" the product with your workmanship. Then you sell the $10 for that much more, plus what you paid in VAT, and pass the costs down along the line, ultimately to be paid by the end user.
So Poland in this case, has to look at the market and see that price for which similar products are selling. Whether or not you think Windows or Office is worth what they cost is moot, the market determines the price and people are obviously willing to pay what they are. So RH and StarOffice are, in the eyes of the government, similar in value as their MS counterparts. No matter that you didnt pay anything for it, you brought valuable merchandise into the country so you pay value added tax -- if the product was not free, you would have had to pay sales tax as well, but you didnt.
I am not an expert on this, but in my past work experience, I had to deal with VAT and getting VAT refunds (not available to the end user, unfortunately, just resellers). Hope this clears things up a little.
Basically, youre SOL unless you start electing officials who want to reform these tax systems.
The ivory tower has never had to reach so h
Seems that Ben Franklin was right:
"But in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes"
-.
If this is true, then maybe the reason the Polish authorities are doing this is to get free software developers to move to Poland.
Revenge is a dish best served cold -- grits should be served hot!
A lot of people seem to think this is happening in the US. It isn't. If you'd read the article, it clearly states that this is happening in Poland.
That said, who are we (as Americans, probably the majority of the readers on Slashdot) to say how another government should be run? They are coming from a different background, they have a different history, they have different laws. The cry of "Free software should be free!" can be heard from everyone in here, but that's a very culturocentric (doubt that's even a word) perspective.
The US and your culture...they are not the end-all be-all.
At least to some extent. There is a "climate tax" being charged from guests to resorts mainly in the mountain regions of Poland. Those taxes are very small (like 50 cents for a week of stay) so most people don't even notice them. This form of taxation gets more and more popular in some areas as it is one of few taxes that can be imposed by local goverment.
You think your big time?
You think your big time?
I'll kick your ass so hard you'll be unbuttoning your neck button to piss!
A year or 2 ago, I ordered a few RedHat 6.2 CD's from www.lsl.com, I live in Canada, and when they arrived, I was charged $30 duty on them, the assesed value of the CD's was $220 a piece, even I only paid $2 each for them. This is not a new thing, they have been doing it for awhile here...
Except that you cannot put that seaside house up on a web site so a million people could all download it and live in their own identical copies.
Real estate has a "fair market value" because it is inherently limited in quantity. That's what the word "real" is all about. The uniqueness of any given property automatically gives it value.
Free software has infinite supply and negligible costs. Any first year Economics textbook will tell you that its perceived value should be (near) zero.
Gee, this just screams out for a polish joke, doesn't it? :-)
The first and easiest challenge at this point would be to challenge M$ to defend their pricing structure by showing real costs.
That oughtta destroy M$'s last shred of credibility, I think.
TAE
My sig is too lon
Not quite sure how to phrase the punchline, but it would start out "Did you hear about the Polish tax man..." :)
Next Gore will want royalties for using his Internet and M$ will want a buck for every window that pops up on a screen.
It's the more extreme abuses of government like this that may promote change. Perhaps it's a good thing? Geeks taking control of government.
is Paraguay (.py) of course. Stinkin' Perl weenies...
Oh, I was wondering where she got them from, but I'm glad you've got them treated. Any advice for how my mama can clear them up. Maybe that could be an ask /. "How can my mama clear up the genital warts that cyborg_monkey gave her?"
To tax free software.. that is just beyond wacky.. Things like this, I believe it is attitudes like that holds back progress, technology, and communications on a world-wide scale.
Victoria Palmer - I brake for unix.boys, Windows just breaks. - http://www.escape.com/~juliet
If you think about it, there is no real difference wether the tax bill goes to the seller or the buyer.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
It's under a pile of books on the piano stool in the dining room. Why, do you want to borrow it?
...there aren't that many well-reasoned responses here that are actually opposed to this nonsense.
Several people have pointed out that this has been predicted in "Free For All" and elsewhere, which is nice, but what to do about it? Some pointed out that taxation of real estate is based on perceived valuation if the property were sold -however, real estate is the only property treated this way in most places I know of.
Certainly Microsoft and other commercial software companies will put pressure on governments to do this sort of thing, as it will hurt the popularity of free software, and yes perhaps charging $0.01 for the license is one way around this... And, yes, it's Poland's own business but frankly the world is getting smaller and we owe it to ourselves and our friends in Poland to - as the first international political force with easy real-time communications among us - band together and oppose all governmental and big-business activities that threaten the society we wish to have on the Internet.
So, some issues seem to be getting ignored here.
One problem is that this poses a huge threat to the free exchange of ideas, especially if applied to the university setting (though students and universities are often given tax breaks)... MANY in the R&D community thrive on free software, and much of it has been written by researchers and hackers for community use based on a barter-like notion of roughly equal contribution from the community (in the form of patches, suggestions, bug reports, publicity, etc.) in return for use. It may thus be necessary to codify this into licenses: anyone who contributes to the software in any ways listed by the author are considered to be "creators" of the software and can not be taxed for using their own creation. Contributions could include applying the system to novel uses and reporting this back, promoting the system for use by others, etc. which would cover some end-users, too.
The government (in Poland in this case) is denying software creators the ability to set the valuation of their own software. If the government gets involved in price-fixing for taxation purposes, the competitive nature of the market that is allegedly a crucial part of the caplitalist system is undermined. If Microsoft and others can't provide value that makes their software worth more than $0 software, that's their problem. To get around this argument a government would need a complex system of taxation based on value to the enterprise using some pre and post installation performance metrics of the task being performed with the program and its value to the organization. Basing the tax on the price of "competing" products is government-assisted price collusion. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that there are reasons why commercial software costs money that do not apply to free software: centralized support, guarantees and warranties and some coherent - and monied - organization to sue if needed, etc. The value of the products is likely not actually the same if anything but a naive economic view (or a purely technical view of the operations of the software) is taken.
This kind of taxation is a kind of protectionism for large software corporations, and threatens to undermine the quality of software and stifle competition as people will come to expect governments to enforce the prices of software, and even commercial companies with competitive pricing can be hurt in such a scenario. Basically, everyone will be expected to charge the same price for their software or otherwise turn-over a larger portion of their profits to the government. Commercial organizations and free software developers alike would cringe at the thought of the government making more money than they do off their work - basically it seeks to undermine the community spirit that built the movement and force commercialization (and a fixed pricing regieme) in the industry, as well as to limit price competitiveness. It actually *encourages* price collusion and other anti-capitalist measures.
The Polish government is taking an outdated view of taxation which will be hard for governments to shake: that goods are the cornerstone of taxation. The US is already a service-based economy, so the US is quite happy to tax support services, installation services, etc. which can come with free software.
It is taxing a form of free speech, which I suspect the Polish constitution has provisions for because (having read part of it) it seems somewhat modeled on the US constitution... Basically, software, like books or music, is a form of creative expression. If I write a book and give it to you for free, if the government decides it's as entertaining as a $30 Steven King novel, should they be able to go and tax you for a $30 purchase you never made? It both forces you to consume, and stifles the ability of authors to freely distribute their ideas.
Finally, it undermines the licensing contract and thus any claims Poland could have to upholding such contract law. Basically, it gives the government the power to rewrite commercial contracts at will to suit its "needs"...
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
Once upon a time, I thought that only my native country had venial & corrupt politicinas whose actions favored the rich. Then I started reading the Internet, & the horror stories started to change my mind.
Since then, I've come to determine the only countries that are actually & proveably better run than mine are those (1) I've never been to, (2) I've never heard a complaint from a local about, & (3) have never made the news for some stupid act of its politicians. Right now the list of places with wonderful governments is down to Iceland, Latvia & Andorra.
Anyone want to post a horror story about one of these & prove me wrong? I figure it's only a matter of time.
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
That's why when I ordered Q3A from Loki back in December 1999 I asked my uncle who lives in Canada to order it for me and send the CD to Poland in a package that wouldn't make the guys at the Polish border wonder if they should put a tax (or whatever) on it...
-jfedor
I wonder how they will tax a subscription to Office X from Microsoft? It is NOT software but a subscription. But with the M$ EULAs, you really don't own it but are using a copy. So the tax bill should go to the owner(Microsoft) and not the user.
Well, you might have missed this, but Poland is not a state in the US - it's another country (Do you know what a 'country' is?). Basically, it means that (unless you're a Polish citizen,) you won't get to vote in their election. Also, someone in grade school is not likely to be allowed to vote very soon ...
Speaking from my own experience from these parts of the world (though not exactly in the same country): This means that the treasury officer did not get his monthly share under the table. If he could he could have assigned the biggest fine possible. Just in case he is not forgotten the next time. He has kidz to feed ya know.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
So lets say that the perceived value of the star office is $220...
So what if you buy an $80.00 version of System Commander 2000. Included (for free) on the same CD is a full version of Star Office 5.1. Should we get taxed on only the $80.00 software, or the $300.00 perceived value?
And what happens if I only wanted the System Commander 2000 software? Do I still get taxed on the $80 value or the $300.00 value?
Sounds to me that a law like this would be difficult to fairly enforce because it has so many loopholes. Maybe Microsoft Windows should be taxed to kingdom come since it includes a bunch of stuff like Internet Explorer for "Free".
What other FREE things are there that are taxed?
Why does this idea have the same ring in my ear that the USPS internet tax does?
On a lighter note, it would be hard to re-enact the Boston Tea Party substituting free software as the cause. What do we do, chuck our RH5.2 and 6.0 cd's into the bay?
"A group of bearded men dressed insensitively as native americans further polluted the bay by dropping large amounts of unwanted compact discs into the water. The zealots attempted to sneak away, but were apprehended. "
%kill -9 taxation
process taxation cannot be killed
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Next they'll be trying to tax the air we breathe. ;-)
But hey I suppose they'd have a point. I mean after all there are costs involved in polluting the atmosphere and for the moment we freely breathe it.
When shit hits the fan get some of these https://youtu.be/pY-GncsZ-UE
When are we holding elections again? ;)
-Omar
Too bad you have the communist disease into your DNA... market value is determined by a balance between offer and demand (repeat after me till your communist head will explode: market value is determined by a balance between offer and demand, market value is determined by a balance between offer and demand, market value is determined by a balance between offer and demand...
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
In an indirect way, they do tax the air we breath via emissions standards.
Someone you trust is one of us.