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ESR: Microsoft Could Collapse In 6 Months (updated)
mjh writes: "ESR gave an interview in which he says, 'I now think that Microsoft monopoly is going to collapse for other reasons in the near future.' He basically says that the drop in PC prices will cut into the margins that PC sellers can afford, and that they'll drop the M$ tax, and replace their bundled OS with something cheaper, like Linux. This was a very interesting interview." It's a good read, and ESR seems to be mellower in it than in some other venues (and to me, that makes him more persuasive than usual as well). However, the idea of Microsoft collapsing because of lost OEM-license dollars seems pretty stretchy -- they make money in a lot of other ways, and have a nice war chest to draw from if licensing losses should become anything like a crisis. Updated by timothy, 13 Dec, 5:52GMT: It's Microsoft's monopoly which ESR said could collapse, not the company per se. Apologies for the poor phrasing.
I think the cool thing about having Linux in the office would be the availability of remote X terms. Basically, setup all the computers as little more than dumb terminals and beef up the central servers. Users would simply open x-term windows and their programs would run on the central (and controlled) servers. Even better would the be the ability for someone to go to ANY computer and have all of their programs available - most Windows places require you to install your apps on each computer locally before using - eg. WinINSTALL.
;)
On the tech-support side, x-term windows would let support people get a better view of the users desktop - PCAnywhere does a good job for PCs, but I personally thing that X is much more flexable for this.
There still would be a massive re-training of users required - definatly factoring into any corporate decesion to switch. With Windows being the _current_ de facto desktop standard, and most people having experience in it, it will be a big risk to switch. How much of a risk is not for me to say - it depends on the staff and who the users are. A web company may find advantages where a buisness office may find dis-advantages.
It boils down to getting people to remember that no one system is a "universal" solution. Every system (yes, even Windows) has its useful place. The advantage of Linux is that it can be re-tooled and re-packaged for different environments..
I dunno.. maybe I've been banging my head against the wall too much lately...
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
And that's why beer is better in Europe...
--knick
ESR may be a good programmer, a good project manager, and a decent guy. However, he's also an evangelist. He truly believes in Linux as the Saviour against the Great Satan of MS. As a result, most of his commentary and predictions are readable only as light entertainment.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
On the other hand, Senator Slade (the "Senator from Microsoft") won't be coming back.
From the NYT article about the permatemp settlement:
With more than $20 billion in cash and cash-equivalents in its coffers, the payout was not expected to hit Microsoft's bottom line.
The Redmond, Wash.-based company, which makes the ubiquitous Windows operating system for personal computers, employs 42,000 people worldwide, and between 5,000 and 6,000 temporary workers on top of that, Pilla said.
Even if everybody averages $100K/year salary, that's under $5B/year in salaries. The bottom line is, even if they quit selling stuff, they have the cash to survive for more than 6 months. And does anyone here think that Bill Gates would hesitate to downsize the company if need be?
It's worth noting, too, that the company makes a lot of money in ways other than OS's on PC's.
I hate to say it, but I even if it's toned down, it's the same exaggeration that we're all accustomed to seeing from ESR.
MCDo you have ESP?
Maybe he should eat his column if it doesn't happen?
sulli
RTFJ.
...the concept that OEMs may be scrambling to put a cheaper OS on their machine in the near future is intriguing. Face it, we (since I use Windows I am one) are Not Idiots because we don't use Linux. Many of us are frustrated, caught between the frustrations of having to deal with Windows and the fact that we would practically have to be Recent Comp Sci graduates to install and run Linux as our primary OS. But we work for companies that use MS products. OEMs and the market in general know a little bit about Linux and in their total frustration they are willing to give it a try.
All Linux needs to give me is:
1) Easy install and mod capability
2) Star Office
3) Many of the games that already exist, and a few new ones
4) A Graphical User Interface that looks and feels like Windows
What of these do we currently lack in Linux?
When I boot up my computer, that is the last time I want to have to deal with my OS. What I want are cool apps that work well together. When all the various tools come together under one umbrella - screw choice, I need basic capabilities here - then people will turn to Linux-based machines if they believe that it is at least as good (and goody-filled) as MS, and if the price tag on their machine is about $200 less.
Unless the DoJ comes down hard on MS, the monopoly ain't going anywhere. But its nice to think that it Might happen in 6 months, because then you have a sense of direction: get some version of Linux that can be pre-eminent in the market quick, so Linux is ready when businesses (and then homes) turn to it.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
> Microsoft keeps up with things; they aren't about to lose their monopoly due to changes that were expected (cheaper, smaller, faster) but will rather require many more unexpected events to appear on the horizon
That tiny little thing called the internet blindsided them. And all this time later they still have a "standalone system" mentality that bites them in the ass now and then. I honestly think they can't understand why the e-mail virus problem won't go away.
However, I think the fall of Microsoft, whenever it comes, is going to come from below. That is, when investor faith in MS's infalibilty pops, their stock pyramid will pop shortly thereafter. Sure, they've got a huge bankroll, but they don't seem to know how to use it for anything other than keeping their stocks afloat. With the kind of money they've been sitting on for all these years, they could have revolutionized computing for real, if only they had any interest in doing so.
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Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
That's funny, there seems to be this "trash" thing on my KDE desktop....looks remarkably similar to the windows "recycle bin".
One has to ask how often the home user has to mess with his system's configuration, outside the context of "How do I want the 57 icons on my 'desktop' arranged today?"...
Further, I find that (unless you're always running as root, which I think no self-respecting pre-installed-linux-box seller would set up) it's significantly more difficult to accidentally delete a crucial system file from a linux box than it is from a home Windows box.
I think the problem is less one of "linux is too hard" and more of "linux used to be too hard and we think that it must still be." The comment about the "missing recycle bin" illustrates this - those of us who have been using linux probably didn't notice when that showed up (I know I never use it, and didn't even think about it until it was mentioned here), and those who haven't looked at linux since it's gotten easier-to-use interfaces (e.g. KDE and Gnome) obviously won't have noticed either. It's just an issue of perceptions.
Well, okay, that and a need for easier-to-use install routines for new software - though I hear there are projects underway for that, too.
A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for Evil.
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
I don't believe Microsoft has a thing to worry about. My. Freakin. God. What a mess.
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I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I think this is old news, I remember seeing speculation about this months ago.
I wouldn't say "no problems"
People still aren't buying it. The W2k adoption rate is still like 1/3 what the analysts were saying, and 1/10th what Microsoft was hoping. ActiveDirectory being the only compelling feature, and at the same time, a compelling reason NOT to upgrade (due to the added overhead and cost to implement).
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The microsoft monopoly of the os market will continue as it exists. There are several reasons why this is true:
1) The average cost of a top of the line PC is not really dropping. Sure Pentiums and x486 are cheap now, but the computers everyone wants to buy are still in the $1000-$2000 range. Next year that range will be the same, it will just feature Ghz Pentium 4 and Athalon systems with faster memory, next generation NVIDIA cards, etc.
2) There is pressure for cheaper systems, but that will be absorbed somewhat by the Xbox and other consoles. There will also be a market for older/slower/less capable computers, but most of the people buying those computers will be computer newbies, and will require much handholding. In part, this means they will want to use what everyone else is using.
3) Applications take a long time to write. Even if there were a moratorium on all new applications for windows, there are currently enough out there to sustain Windows as a viable choice for much longer than 6 months. WINE might help somewhat, but without killer apps, people will just go with Windows because it's easier and the support costs would be lower than doing both.
4) Businesses will still be using Windows PCs in 6 months, and a large chunk of the home PC market revolves around people using windows because that's what they are used to from work.
5) Microsoft has lots of money available. In the worst case they could just lower the price of the OEM licenses to forstall anyone using anything else. And give discounts for not shipping competitor's products, bundle more software for the same cost, etc.
6) Even if Linux were ready for primetime and enough of the applications and games were finished, it would take more than 6 months for the PC industry to switch focus and start pushing the new systems.
My expert opinion:
Windows will continue to dominate the market it has right now, and MS will use that position to try to leverage other markets as it is currently doing. It is conceivable that eventually there could be enough free applications that Linux would take over that market in a relatively short timeframe, but that will not be within the next six months.
As for cheap PCs, the OS is still a relatively small cost of the overall system. The most expensive component seems to be the display, and I don't expect a revolution in settop boxes and whatnot until TV screens can display readable text, or computer monitors shrink in size, become much cheaper, and TV capable as well. Theoretically HDTV will help, but the economics of a $5000 display and a $300 computer don't make sense for that trend. Those who insist that x486 computers have plenty of compute power for reading email are encouraged to go buy one at a garage sale to remind themselves why there will continue to be demand for more computational power.
It is not unreasonable that new markets would choose to go with free software. This would include new geographic regions not already entrenched by windows, new demographics of computer users that didn't have a need for current computers, or new sets of devices for which the benefits of using MS are not clear. Current markets should not change much for the forseable future.
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** The moderation here is terrible, this will probably sit at -1 forever.
I'd say "remarkably bug free compared to NT4".
.NET or something else in a 200MB service pack that will ruin what's been a pretty good thing so far.
I've had no stability problems with it on my machines (laptop + 2 desktops) since it was installed in March, including one machine that was wholesale upgraded from a K6-233 to a dual PIII 650 -- no reinstallation necessary, and even switching to the SMP HAL was error free.
On the server side, I'm a little more skeptical. There's been a couple of bugs introduced by SP1 (specific to MacOS server support).
So far MS's done a good job, but then again they haven't tried to shoehorn in some new technology initiative like they did with NT4. I imagine that in time they'll try and cram
(OB: I've had to reboot my FreeBSD system that runs squid more than my Win2k systems!)
RMS is wildly optimistic but, OTOH, the loss of OEMs to Linux (or any other OS other than the MAC) would be the beginning of the end. As many people have pointed out, they don't get a huge chunk of their income from the MS tax but thing about the implication of machines having some other OS loaded at sale: no more Office sales! That is such a big hit to their income that it could bring them down.
A similar argument holds for the future .NET: take away IE and the default bookmarks MS will no doubt be putting into it and were does .NET go?
This just underlines why they are so keen to force OEMs to put Windows on their machines "or else": whree Windows goes Office follows. Where Linux goes StarOffice or KOffice follows and Bill doesn't make any money on them.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Hmm, damn EVERY pc I bought had a windows cd with it...odd, maybe you should call up whoever and ask for it, as they are supposed to provide one...just a thought
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
Jonathan Corbet, LWN.net
you're the reason i wish /. had killfiles. moronic assfuck.
No, no, he has posted some insightful information. I wasn't aware W2K was bug free. His helpful information will increase my productivity as I have to use W2K at work. Now I will be looking for W2K's bug free features.
Secondly I think that independent re-discovery of the technique should be an affirmative defense against patent infringement, that is, you can't patent a technique, keep it secret, and if then somebody else uses the same technique, suddenly surfaces with the patent and say "oh, here's our secret technique which we have patented, and this means you can't use it." I think independent re-discovery ought to be a defense against patent infringement. Right now, it's not
I thought patents had to be published, how could you prove independent rediscovery, Isn't this trade secrets he's talking about?
Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
In related news, the flaws in the electoral collage will mean that the United States will never survive past the year 1879. Catholicism, based on a single book, will not last past 'The Dark Ages'. And the sky is falling. Thank you, goodnight, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
if ESR or RMS said or wrote somewhere "I expect my entire lower colon to be overtaken by hemmoroids by 2002", would Slashdot publish that too?
god, give us some real news, and ditch these hippies
What the vendors do won't change the fact that most people still want MS products. MS is the "standard" on the desktop, if you want to share office documents you need MS products, if you want to play games you need MS products.
Vendor support for Linux will not happen unless a large percentage of the general public wants it.
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enterfornone - logging in for a change
With Linux/BSD/BeOS/MacOS/whateverOS, you do at least get a proper installable CD instead of a hard disk image and a licence number- I would imagine that this would be a factor in people deciding which OS to buy on their shiny new machines.
He has done some good stuff, and a lot of bogus stuff, his 'nya nya nya nya' bullshite when his VA stock was "worth" about $40 million was basically unforgivable, as is this stupidity in the jargon file:
W2k Bug
Yeah, Eric, you got that one right!
60k bugs is either fact or not, and pretty much irrelevant anyway, so I won't comment. I don't know about the schedule, so I won't comment there either. What I do know about though is the 'without any problems' nonsense. I'll cheerfully acknowledge that win2k is by far the best windows yet, but if it ran without any problems, I'd get over 100 hours uptime on a regular basis, which I don't. Almost without fail, windows crashes (or becomes unusably tangled) between about 75 and 125 hours uptime. That's a damn sight better than the ~5 hours uptime I'd get with win95, but hardly problem-free.
Imagine if MS spokesmen spent their time with unfouded attacks on Linux. They don't - which is a sign of self confidens and maturity.
Do you live in a box? We have a german MS ad insinuating that the many flavors of linux are bad. Has anyone counted the number of versions of windows in the last 5 years (I seem to recall there are about 10 versions each of win95 and 98, not including the different language versions (which, by the way, have different sets of bugs in each), though winME and win2K are too new to have fragmented yet) and compared it with the number of linux distros?
How about the Naked PC page which insinuates that anyone who doesn't buy windows with their computer must be stealing it later.
For my third exhibit, I present The Linux Myths Page:
I should stop now, as this is becomming a rant, but surely you see my point? If not, I'll summarize: You're wrong. If MS were self-confident, they'd ignore linux and continue to push windows on its own merits. Unfortunately, it has comparatively few, so they've got to try to make everyone else look bad to make themselves look good. Maturity?!?
If you don't agree with RMS' style, that's fine. In fact, you should say so. Claiming that RMS' faults somehow make his arguments invalid is not the way to go about it though.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
Clue train ticket: this guy is about as effective a spokesperson for Open Source as a cable TV evangelist is for people with serious religious convictions and faith.
He's doing more harm than good with interviews like this. As people don't take ESR seriously anymore (after reading that, I don't, do you?) they don't take the open source movement seriously.
-- RLJ
If Microsoft's monopoly collapses, then so does Microsoft.
Puh-leaze. Just like ATT whithered and died?
On your other point, though, you're quite right. No one is going to give up the comfort of familiarity without a really, really good incentive to do so.
What I read was ESR suggesting that the MS monopoly on the PC operating system would collapse. Microsoft as an entity is a very long way from collapsing.
/. readers: Don't judge a book by its cover and don't judge a /. article by the title assigned by the editors. Read the article then comment.
Note to
Every time a w3b d3$1ng3r uses a proprietary extension, the world becomes a little more homogenous and a demon earns his wings, because he has prevented price/performance selection from happening.
So what you're saying basically is that my clients, and in turn their customers should not have what they want, because the W3C doesn't like some tags, or doesn't give a standard for the functionality customers want?
Fuck that. Wake up, the W3C aren't in charge any more, they haven't been for a long time. Their validator still complains if I have a bgcolor="foo" in a table. They need to get off their high horse and try implementing things people actually want in the standards if they want somebody to give a shit.
*Flame retardant pants at the ready*
--Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Agreed. ESR continually annoys me. In part, he has brought this on himself: his annotations to the "halloween documents" are weak snipes at MSFT, he compares Bill Gates to Hitler, and he openly calls MSFT and Bill Gates the enemy.
I think a lot of this comes from a lack of perspective. Bruce Perens seems to have mellowed since his look-at-me resignations from SPI and OSI. Hopefully, ESR will do the same. I'm fascinated by ESR and RMS: full-time free software advocates.
This is the best interview I've read in a long time. It's a shame that Slashdot has painted it with the anti-MSFT brush.
Yes, but your standard desktop doesn't have to be windows. I have one desktop I use at home and work too, it just happens to be linux.
I know this is a reply to my own post...but why was this modded down as flaim bait? I was making the point that if the OEMs do decide for some reason to pull out MS will go and find a way to make money...namely port office to Linux...
------ This has been provided as a public service! ------
Too broad brush - in the UK a lot (if not most) measurments are metric, we buy petrol in litres, most goods (not beer) are sold in metric units. My children don't want to know about imperial measures, it's only REALLY old farts (and Daily Mail and Sun readers) who want to keep lbs and ozs. Road distances though are still measured in miles.
The only real threat to Microsoft is that no one will want WinCE. But RMS' argument really does hold water in that little slice of the market, IMHO.
Not all computers need to run anyone's "favorite" software. More special-purpose embedded stuff seems to be appearing. Take Tivo, for example. No one cares that Tivo can't read MS Word documents.
When you have specialized equipment that really just needs to run one application, the legacy issues go away and designers are free to use whatever is cheaper or works best. Those criteria tend to leave Microsoft out in the cold.
Alas, it's still just one slice of the market, and I doubt it's going to have much an effect on desktops.
Tangent: certain companies have successfully poisoned standards (and people's perceptions of what standards are) in a way that has strengthened Microsoft's and Netscape's market stranglehold. Notice that a lot of the cheap dedicated surfing machines have tended to run modern OSes like BeOS or QNX instead of 'Doze. But these boxes aren't selling well (AFAIK) because no matter how good their web browsers are and how well they support standards, they invariably don't handle proprietary defacto standards as well (e.g. RealAudio, Flash, etc.)
Thus, something as generic and ostensibly platform-independant as the WWW has become a place where the John Q Public thinks he needs his "favorite" software. Every time a w3b d3$1ng3r uses a proprietary extension, the world becomes a little more homogenous and a demon earns his wings, because he has prevented price/performance selection from happening.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I have to suspect that something is wrong with your Windows 2000 system (beyond whatever faults may or may not exist in the operating system, of course.) I'm using Windows 2000 Professional right now on a home workstation/server, and I've found it to be INCREDIBLY stable. I reboot it perhaps once a month, and the only time I've ever seen a blue screen is when I once downloaded some beta (as well as faulty) video drivers. I replaced those and haven't seen one since.
I'm not sure what exactly you're doing to that poor computer of yours to make it crash so often, but I doubt that your experiences are typical.
Hi, I'm a pretentious cock who will make some gay comment about ignoring AC posts here.
There's a lot here about open source, VA, Sun, IBM, RMS... Nothing I found particularly interesting, and he's ducking the hard questions (the word "Mozilla" is nowhere to be seen - the man who was so eager to wrap himself in the glory of that project now pretends it doesn't exist) - but focusing on that one bit of nonsense completely misses the point.
Oh well. Let's get back to the lengthy flamefest conducted by people who haven't read the article!
you could try, but if you did a traceroute, none of the packets would come back alive..
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I jump between GNOME and KDE2 (and enlightenment - with and without GNOME) frequently on box with 64MB ram with no noticible slowness compared to Win98 on the same system.
"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh"
- Monty Python meets the Matrix
If France had had it its way in Nice a couple of days ago,
NATO would have been severly crippled. But since the Brits
refused to give up the national veto in defense questions
NATO will live on. At least until the next EU meet.
NEVER voluntarily put a project you work on under the GNU umbrella, -- Ulrich Drepper
i have the same problem on my stock preloaded dell optiplex gx110 box. games kill the system often, sometimes even word does. NT never used to go down more than once a month..win2k is incredibly slow and bloated and dies pretty often.
Er, isn't 50% a whole lot less than 100%? I think you have youre prerequisites switched around here.
How many corp end users havr to set up anything. None I would say. It's the sysadmin's job. If I have a problem with access to the internet, say, I phone up the IT helpdesk and they sort it out for me. Linux would be just the same.
Not to mention the fact that all the game people are still writing to Windows. Now you and I may know that you should play games on your Playstation 2 and leave your computer free to run stock simulations, but Joe Average Luser wants to play games on his PC. Telling him to buy a Playstation 2 is simply hiding your head in the sand, though he probably actually already has one. Loki's cool in that department if you don't mind getting titles that were released for Windows 3 years ago and you don't mind buying them off the Internet, because you're not going to have any luck finding their stuff in any of the local brick and mortar stores (At least not where I live.)
And don't think Microsoft is going to sit there and let Linux compete either. They're going to do their damndest to prevent the Open Source community from competing with them. Do you think it's a coincidence that Joe Average Luser can't get DVD player software for Linux? Microsoft is a BIG contributor to the DVD consortium. As more and more media gets tied up in copy-protected formats, Open Source software proponents will have a much harder time pushing their software since it won't be able to play any media off the net.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Actually that would be Win 95 ver B...
all persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. - Kurt Vonnegut
He was talking about the colapse of the Micro$oft monopoly.
I'm glad someone else mentioned this. Why did Timothy need to give the article a sensationalist bullshit header which is out of contect to even what the submitter wrote, let alone the actual article?
This happens often enough as it in the comments area, with people bullshitting and whining about stuff without actually reading the articles.
This is just ESR's usual fare. Pointing to corporate america as the only important thing that matters and should matter.
I don't give a flying f$*k what IBM and microsoft do. The important advancements are happening in linux right here, in the trenches, with the real people.
What makes linux great are not the corporate vultures sweeping in to make a profit off of everyone's passion. It is the passion that has created an entire operating system and platofrm out of nothing.
___________________________
http://www.hyperpoem.net
hyperpoem.net
The '30-year old technology' troll is pretty jaded by now isn't it?
First of all anecdotes do not a good OS make, and that goes for any *nix you could care to mention. There have to be hard and substantiative facts that make one system better than another for one or more tasks before you could credibly say "My OS is better than yours".
Secondly it is conceptually trivial for someone to write a Linux GUI that manages to hide the most complex parts of the system and make it akin to Windows as far as the user is concerned.
Sure, many people will not like it but it's quite possible. I'm not sure that this would be a useful step to take given the GUI should really be made to work in an easier way to Windows, but nevertheless it is possible.
It would be nice if Linux could function as a great desktop and be faster than Win2K for > 50% of all comparable features but until this happens it won't be taking over the desktop, I imagine.
Some may say it has already achieved this, but my jury is out.
> Maybe a splinter group (or is there one out there?)
> should focus on adapting Linux to the common person
You mean like MacOS X? OK, so it's BSD, but functionally there's not a whole lot of difference, especially once it's hidden under the Mac UI.
X.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
"Win2k has a ton of compelling features, and is a lot more robust than 4.0"
I had to use NT4 at work for a couple of years, and recently we switched to W2k on the dev team (good little MSofties I work for). Yes W2k is more 'robust' insofar as that word is a euphemism for 'doesn't go tits up every other day or three'. Now it's only once every week or two. Try right-clicking on the taskbar icon for a runaway app and see what happens. Explorer.exe blows and takes everything down with it is what happens to me. (Don't need to reboot it seems, but it's as if I just logged in.) Can't guarantee it will happen to you too, but that's typical. How many times have you heard an exchange like this:
Cubie1: "What the hell is it doing?"
Cubie2: "I don't know. Is the hard-drive going?"
30 seconds later...
Cubie1: "Guess it's dead, time to reset."
Or how about 192M of RAM and it takes HOW long to 'check for necessary disk space' when REMOVING an app?
Forget accurate information on how long/fast/complete a file copy or move is. Just watch the pretty pictures and wildly inaccurate estimates...
What the hell is it doing on shutdown? Never have been able to figure that one out. It's a fucking mystery.
Damn, do I ever feel compelled!
LEXX
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Nah, Microsoft has taken on the personna of one of those evil multinationals in James Bond movies. Heard Bill speak at Jan. CES in Las Vegas. Very nice job, if you listened to rather than just heard, this keynote. He pretty much put half the consumer products companies on notice that his company, Win CE, etc. would be on all consumer electronics which are worth their weight in salt. Not a very nice guy, whne you think about it. And all this after Bill became a "warm and fuzzy" guy after his terrible performance in the anti-trust trials.
Sure there are good, smart people working for Microsoft. There were good, smart people working for Exxon when the Valdez dumped it's crude. There's stigma. That's what this piece of satire is about.
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Oh geeez somebody mod this up. This is the best thing I have read on Slashdot in weeks.
I wrote parts of this stuff
And this would be good why? I did the OS/2 thing. I rooted for a technically superior but market-share challenged proprietary underdog. (Who knew IBM would be so inept?) BeOS may have some technical advantages over Windows, but where are the applications? BeOS may have some advantages over Linux, but Linux is free--to use, to modify, to sell, to pay someone to fix, etc.
I'll grant that competition is good, even when both choices kind of suck, because it helps to keep people honest. That's why I root for Apple every now and then.
I'll cheerfully acknowledge that win2k is by far the best windows yet, but if it ran without any problems, I'd get over 100 hours uptime on a regular basis, which I don't. Almost without fail, windows crashes (or becomes unusably tangled) between about 75 and 125 hours uptime. That's a damn sight better than the ~5 hours uptime I'd get with win95, but hardly problem-free.
I'm not quite sure how everyone manages to get Windows set up so horribly. I'm currently writing this from a Windows 98 box with 88 hours and 16 minutes uptime. 75-100 hours uptime is the norm for me on Windows 98, so I find it hard to believe that your Win2000 box can't at least match that.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
> "Nietzche is Dead." --God
Care to trace that quote to its source?
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I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
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Game over, 2000!
Counting bugs is irrelevant - if I started counting the "admitted" bugs in the Linux kernel I'd be counting for quite a while.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The one who has choosen the title deserves a spank.
'nuf said.
Remember what he said before Windows 2000 came out?
:)
Yep. What's your point? Visionaries are more often spectacularly wrong than they are spectcularly correct. If you take what ESR says as being prophecy, you'll find him to be a remarkably lousy prophet. If you take what ESR says as being rumination, you might find a lot in there that warrants consideration.
And frankly, I find his ruminations to be far more interesting than anything I've seen from you here on Slashdot.
[N]ow it's out without any problems at all.
Win2K adoption is running less than half what was predicted, and far less than Microsoft was hoping. They put out a media blitz for Win2K which brought the Win95 launch to mind--in some ways it was even more over-the-top; Microsoft paid top dollar to make sure that every PC in the Bond movie The World Is Not Enough was running computers marked as "Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional" and all the handhelds were running WinCE. That kind of massive media blitz costs a lot of money and suggests MS had a lot of confidence it'd sell like hotcakes.
So far, sales have been tepid.
Insofar as reliability goes, my Win2K box crashes about every three or four days. Windows NT 4.0 crashed once a month or so. Win2K, on my own machine at home (dual PIII/800s, VIA mobo) has failed to be reliable.
I think the problem is that he is a hangover from the immature days of Linux.
As soon as I have to wear a suit and tie to be taken seriously in the Linux community, I'll defect to FreeBSD. I do my hacking sitting in my boxers at 3AM. Kernel development proceeds chaotically and "immaturely", yet at a breakneck pace.
If you take away the "immaturity", you take away Linux's greatest strength--that it's young and still explodingly vibrant.
Imagine if MS spokesmen spent their time with unfouded [sic] attacks on Linux.
You have been living under a rock, haven't you?
OEM licenses only account for something like 10-15% of their profit... so that wouldn't be that big a loss for them
SSL Certificate
Just one thing...I think it's good to have a standard desktop, like windows. Who on earth wants to learn 4 diffrent OS's because they use one at home and then another at work and then the on at school or wherever. There needs to be one OS simply because it makes interopability so much easier
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
It's said that in civilized debate, the first person to compare his opponent to the Nazis automatically loses. Sorry ESR, you lose.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Amen! /.'s street cred drops every time I see these rushed headlines dripping with bias in a vain attempt to prove everything that is Microsoft is wrong and Linux is going to take over the world any day now.
Come on! Be objective, and chill out with this self righteous my OS is bigger than yours bullshit.
If you just wanted to upgrade packages, it's very easy -- just use ssh and loop through all the machines. Or you could have the machines all configured to automatically install packages from a remote file system. This is what I do -- all I need to do is dump the packages in a certain directory, and test the upgrade on one of the machines. The cron job takes care of the others.
Jesus! For Heaven's sake, I was just making a Goddamn Joke! Holy Mother Of All That Is Holy, I fear for the souls of this Heathen Humorless Wretch of a Discussion Forum!
(Anyway, saying "Billion Dollar War Chest" MS is going down in six months--like the Slashdot headline implied--is more ridiculous than even this quote. Of course, that's not what ESR said, but that's what we saw.)
--Dan
What would an OS data structure be, if not a file? How about simple things like the floppy drive? That's a file under linux, and thus can be controlled by file permissions, as can ports, peripherals, etc.
/dev/port/80 so that you don't have to be root to open ports 1024? No.
I dunno. How about sockets? Can I do chmod +rw
Can I put access protections on the access protections so that someone can read a file but not see what the protections on the file are? No.
Can I put protections on only parts of a file? Say I want the introduction of my paper to be public but the financial data to be private? No.
Can I put access protections so that other people can't see what processes I'm running? Or so that they can only see how long it has been running but not how much memory it takes up? No.
--
Game over, 2000!
Microsoft could afford to give their OS away and still make a large profit. Per financial reports, Office alone produces 40% of MSFT net profits. Windows has a 25% share but, due to lowered expectations for earnings and a huge bankroll, MS could take the OS loss and still be extremely profitable. In fact (heresy here but what the hell) Linux would be seriously threatened if Windows became freeware. Due to current MS sensitivity to charges of monopoly, a freeware Windows probably isn't in the cards. But don't be surprised if, after the court decision has been reversed and MS is pressured by computer makers, MS does decide to give their OS away for a while.
Even better would the be the ability for someone to go to ANY computer and have all of their programs available
Yup...or you could use a beefed up 2000 server with Windows Terminal Services and do the same thing, and not only do they have their profile and programs, it's the programs they want. It's word, not StarOffice - they have their paperclip.
It's IE, not Netscape, and they can actually view most of the web pages out there again.
I'm not saying I don't love Windows, but anyone who thinks that the masses will abandon it for X w/ KDE or Gnome are kidding themselves. As nice as they may be, they are not ready for prime time.
It seems pretty clear to me that ESR is no longer a force for good in the OSS community. He constantly makes outrageous claims that prove to be completely false in hindsight. He turned a technical discussion on Kernel-Dev into a pissing match between himself and Linus (Linus wisely ignored him).
/. help silence this windbag? Maybe CmdrTaco could arrance a /. Interview in which we confront him with his problems and try to get things to change. He's just going to continue spouting off at the mouth (and damaging the reputation of the OSS community in the process) unless *we* do something?
So can
So what do y'all think?
-Harry
Who let that pompous idiot up on the soapbox in the first place?
His famous "I am rich now" article was my favorite.. But, I haven't seen any from him lately. According to the Insider information on Yahoo, he got 160K shares of VA. That was worth $33.5 Million this time last year. As of Dec. 7, it is now worth $1.1M.
He has really proven his value on that one. His vision has really led them in the right direction.
> The W2k adoption rate is still like 1/3 what the analysts were saying, and 1/10th what Microsoft was hoping.
No problem. MS only spent half a billion dollars on the initial media blitz. If they decide to get serious about selling it, there's billions more where that came from.
Or they can just give more copies away.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
There should also be only one automobile manufacturer. All those different brands are confusing!
Let's have just one company in EVERY industry, it would make life so much simpler!
Oh well, I guess I'll get back to my wonderful soma vacation.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
I **LOVED** this interview
this guy may be an ego maniac
but he makes me feel like a genius
and its really great to see him move and wave and smile
as I read his comments.
and what he says about the student-teacher relationship is _spot on_...
And here is a chance to read and see a genuine article in action...
see how *physical* and excited he gets talking about this stuff
we are all involved with.
And what the hell is wrong with a bit of negative M$ talk????
Why are people defending M$ all of a sudden???
okay, enough of this, back to coding for me, yay!!!!
!#
Windows 98 and ME both come with Microsoft's "Personal Web Server" pre-installed. This is a good example of Windows following Linux's lead, rather than the other way around.
When I moderate, I only use "-1, Overrated". That way, I never get meta-moderated!
What on earth do you mean by pay or leach for usb support. It kinda comes standard with 98 and above...maybe you need to spend some of that valuable time reading up on current software
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
2k sales will surpass 4.0 sales this quarter for the first time.
t ic leID=16345
http://www.win2000mag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?Ar
Win2k has a ton of compelling features, and is a lot more robust than 4.0
ostiguy
I read a couple of years back (in some finance rag) that one of Microsoft's biggest problems was the fact that they had over $1 billion in CASH (yeah, that's right, CASH, not stock). The article made the point that at the rate they were accruing cash, they couldn't invest it fast enough (either through R&D or acquisitions) and that the return on this big heap of cash was crap (essentially short-term bank rates) and was pissing off the stock-holders. Most companies couldn't even dream of having a problem like that. Any reports about Microsoft's imminent demise are absolutely laughable.
> It might be nice if they ran the free software under Linux, or even BSD, but this isn't going to happen overnight.
Of course, as more and more Windows users adopt GNU tools and OSS toys, some will inevitable ask why they're paying for Windows when they could run the same stuff elsewhere.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Thats true, except a lot of people muck around in ways they should not. Say in Windows, a user deletes a file - I can direct them to check the recycle bin and recover from there (90% of Windows "users" don't empty their trash). Under Linux? Uhrm. ugh. sorry, it's *gone*. =).
;).
But it's not the corp backup we need. What we need is something for the average HOME user. The average HOME user doesn't want to wait on the phone for tech support, doesn't want the hassle of learning something new, and doesn't want to change from what they are now familiar with.
Linux et al are not fighting against Microsoft, so much as we have to fight against the market saturation that it has. I guess a similar analogy would be going from an automatic transmission to a manual when driving. Most people now-a-days drive auto and couldn't care less about changing the gears as they go - Linux is more manual than Windows.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, just somewhere that we are not at just yet. Don't worry, we'll get there someday
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
1. It ain't a distro - and it comes with plenty. Not as much as the $200 shovelware Redhat 7 packages, but enough
2. 'cause you're not cool enough, and MS doesn't want you fscking stuff up.
3. less than $100. You get what you pay for, BTW
--
The stock price manipulation is much more important than just that. As someone mentioned in a previous article, those stock benefits come at the cost of shareholders. If the stock slips, not only do they lose their work force, they also fall down a very slippery slope. If it starts to really slide, like down to the $20-30 range, having stock options given to every joe blow at MS becomes a serious threat to shareholder value. Then MS has to pay their employees better, and on top of that, they lose that really slick tax break they get for employee stock options. If MS goes, it will go down quick and hard.
Now as far as when that will happen, ESR predicting the fall is a bit like the CIA trying to predict when the Soviet Union would collapse. Open Source advocates just have too much involved in trying to make MS collapse for them to make any rational predictions as to when or if it will occur.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
no, gwb is on crack.
I think plan-9 does these things. maybe you ought to check it out. It goes nuts with the whole "everything is a file" scheme.
War is necrophilia.
But, hey, 6 months isn't too long from now, let's just wait and see.
Ok people. I don't wanna defend Raymond. Frankly his interview has some weak points.
But what I see here!..
Microsoft has a decent mail system? Cool, show it to me... Outlook? That piece of trash with good look? Very good. If you are a user then you must be a damn lucky guy to not have trouble with it. If you are a sysadmin, damn or you are REAL GOOD or you and me are not living on the same planet...
On what concerns the desktop. KDE vs Windows? That's old. KDE2 is not worser, in most points to Windows. It may be different. But most users consider it at the same level as Windows. Some even comapare to autos of different carmakers. And here I mean general users. Those who don't know nothing about command lines and bash scripts. Those who know this stuff, prefer things like WindowMaker or AfterStep.
Sorry StarOffice bashers. Yes, the tool has some serious esthetic drawbacks, but, sincerly, most people I see, either choose it or Office97. So second place in front of Office00 is not bad at all. And while the masses still use Windows, I'm already seeing a 50/50 OS fight among advanced users. For example, in the office I'm now, we have 5 Windows and 4 Linux desktops. On a comapny I know, the financial director already uses Linux for all his work. We suse StarOffice for nearly 80% of documents and i have not seen any serious drawbacks in the conversion of M$ docs.
On what concerns your stupid trend "Linux is not ready for the desktop". It is not ready and it will never be ready. In most sense. Linux is a building block. Something like a Lego box. If you don't wanna burn your brains building it for a month or two then go and get Windows. But don't come here saying this "linrftd" BS. If you don't have the preparation or the guts to make a desktop system, it's YOUR problem. My Linux box is working for the 5th month in a row. And because one HDD physically crashed. Or else it would be in its 11th month. My collegue is using a box with nearly no big changes since July last year! Now our Windows fans here, fully reinstall their piece of crap every month!
Yes it is a hard thing to do. My box took nearly one month to get into full work. But it is an office desktop machine.
The only thing I would agree is that Linux is not ready for games. Correct, I give up on this one. But I'm in an office and I have a job to do. Games, I can play in other machine.
And what concerns Microsoft loosing its monopoly. It already lost it. If you don't see, then you're quite blind. Many advanced users are already using Redhats, Mandrakes and even Debians for their regular work. And this is making many common users to pass frontlines. Just yesterday I had three users asking for my Linux CDs. Everyday I hear people asking things about Linux settings, configurations. Most, only claim the lack of games as the main barrier to not use Linux fulltime. And what is more significative, is that a large group of dial-up users uses only Linux in their Internet roaming. So don't tell me tales.
I'm seeing lots of talk about how if linux could only become "deployed" by OEMs it would be the next best thing since sliced bread. But OEMs will NEVER use it until they can make a profit. And they cna't make a profit off an operating system that isn't profitable to the companies they sell to. all companies will rely on windows b/c it is compatible and for the user who doesn't care what OS he runs, it is simple and effective. Unless the community makes a concentrated effort on changing linux DRAMATICALLY such that the typical user who only wants to surf the internet and word process can do it better then with windows, then nobody would gain by switching companies over to it.
I use linux and love it, but I'm a programmer. The typical user is not a programmer. the typical user wants to remain compatible, and wants ease of use, and wants multimedia. and you can not tell me that linux makes it easy to be compatible, or that linux is easy to use. if you tell me linux is easy to use, then I'll point out that every time I add a piece of hardware I have to reada howto, wheras with windows I could just Plug and play, and if yout ell me it is good for multimedia, I'll ask you a/b DVD, a/b quicktime, about netscape plugins, and all sorts of stuff, that havn't been developed because there isn't enough commercial demand for them.
So I ask that all us linux users stop fantasizing about the day companies switch over to linux, and make it something that companies would WANT to do.
Cos the shoddy ones are free. It's a matter of perceived value. Is ms office $400.00 better then star office? is photoshop $700.00 better then gimp. Well not for a lot of people but for some people yes. But they keep gettig better and better and one day it won't be worth the extra money to but office. Office will still be better but not enough to part with $400.00.
When that day comes MS will lower the cost or office will become just-another-office-suite both of which will make me very happy. With the two major cash cows windows and office becoming comodity items windows domination of the tech industry will finally come to an end and they will the just-another-software-company.
Already MS makes more money by buying and selling companies and stock then by selling software so I don't thinkg it's hurt Bill very much but what the hey.
War is necrophilia.
That's two totally misleading headlines you've posted about Microsoft in one week. Headlines that had nothing whatsoever to do with the story being quoted.
I suggest you guys take a course in remedial journalism. Better yet, get some kid from the local high school paper to help you out.
Although it seems possible that some of this may happen, 'collapse' and 'demise' are probably not a reality.
love is just extroverted narcissism
It reminds me of nothing so much as Apple at its deadly worst. Instead of OpenDoc and eWorld, we have SOAP and .NET. Instead of Pippin (remember Pippin?) we have X-Box. And instead of "beleaguered" (which ended up being a darn good wake-up call) we have "MS will never stumble, it always has more than enough money ahahahaha! It will never bobble, never never ahahaha! Here, have some more stock!" which to any normal investor or business person has to set off howling warning klaxons everywhere.
Tell me, if any other company was telling you about .NET, would you say it was even going to _ship_? If any other company told you it was going to expand outward into game consoles and beat hell out of Sony despite having no experience, console marketshare or reputation, would you believe a word of it? Do you seriously think _everyone_ is going to continue to believe black is white, X-Box is progress and .NET is the future just because MS used to have an awful lot of money?
The MS monopoly is outrageously expensive to maintain- they must spend huge amounts on simply maintaining total money hole products like IE to win marketshare and there IS no more marketshare and there aren't any sensible proposals for how they're going to shift to a sustainable profit model not based on continuous exponential growth. If they were forcibly broken up this would be a very good scapegoat for a complete overhaul that would leave them in good shape for years. As it is they are cruising towards a collapse because they insist on treating everything the same way they did when they were unseating Netscape and flooding the world with W95- and they are only the 900lb gorilla in computer software, not consoles or back-ends or servers or media. I don't think they will be able to adapt unless forcibly broken up.
--
(The big thing in this article is about how IBM is releasing new code under an Open Source license. The believe of Micro$oft being troubled plays well on /.)
ESR talks about how wonderful Open Source is. ESR talks at LinuxWorld and The Bazzar about how BSD is a fine open source product, and should get far more press than it does. (or how the BSD Kernel is better written code overall)
Yet, rather than talk about how Open Source OSes will become dominate in the market, ESR chooses to promote only Linux. Fetchmail comes in Linux pre-built binaries, and linux formatted packages...no BSD specific versions.
ESR is willing to be politically neutral on KDE/GNOME. ESR is willing to talk about how BSD needs more press, then uses Linux as the generic term for Open Source OS. If your position is as a 'leading' Open Source advocate, then choose to only mention BSD rarely, what kind of "open source OS advocate" are you?
If you are going to talk the talk about how BSD should have more promotion, why won't you walk the walk? ESR, why do you not promote BSD more, given you are a "leading Open Source" advocate? Lead by example, rather than empty rhetoric.
Or are you a good corporate shill for VA Research^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLinux?
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Honest question. I agree with the assessment that BeOS is better for dethroning the giant, but everyone that supports Linux says "It's getting there but not _yet_. How many years, kernel revisions, and GUIs have to be constructed before someone hits on what _is_ good enough as a replacement?
Often the statement seems to come from someone who wants to show grudging respect to Linux but doesn't think it will _ever_ gain market share. To me this constant "not yet" harping just gets the public worried. Better to describe what it does and doesn't do, not to hold it up to a future ideal version of itself which it may or may not reach due to reasons entirely outside the concept of "better" or "worse".
Yeah, and the two scenarios are almost identical, huh.
microsoft isn't going to collapse until the day bill gates rolls out of bed and thinks to himself, "i hate my company. i'm going to dissolve it today."
windows is the new crack.
love,
grizzo
www.grizzo.com
it's 100% grizzo
grizzo: totally insecure, but very convenient.
Absolutely false. I use MSFT office, even though I am aware of the alternatives. I use MSFT SQL Server and MSFT Visual Studio, even though there are alternatives. Most of their products have significant competition... and only a few are the lone serious competitors in the market.
They will survive! Maybe not in the same form, but they will survive as long as they make good products (just because you disagree doesn't mean that everybody else does).
-rt-
-rt-
** Evil Canadians are taking over the world. Learn about the conspiracy
I think the problem is that he is a hangover from the immature days of Linux. But now that Linux is growing up and becoming commercially valid, isn't it time that its spokesmen grew up as well? Imagine if MS spokesmen spent their time with unfouded attacks on Linux. They don't - which is a sign of self confidens and maturity.
It's time for RMS & ESR to behave in the same fashion, IMO.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
1) A point is not a troll, somthin most slashdotters seem to forget, as it's much easier to ignore a troll 2) There are MANY facts that say 2k is better 2b) There are MANY facts that say *nix is better 3)Conceptully...eww guess what, real world is not a concept. If it's trivial do it
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
I love BeOS and use Windows all day at work. I've tried Linux several times, but have hated each time. Oh well, so it's not my cup of tea, but I gave it a shot. I'll try MacOS X eventually, too.
Anyway, I have an open mind, so I talked my roommate into buying an iMac instead of upgrading his Windows machine. Big mistake! I mean, I just ASSUMED MacOS was actually user friendly, since that's what all the Mac zealots are always throwing in our faces. The experience we had was definitely anything other than "user friendly."
First, we pull it out of the box. Cool design, cool keyboard, cool "zero-button" mouse, etc. We boot it up, the registration screens come right up to get us started. Mid-way through setting up the network, the thing freezes up solid. We wait 5 minutes and give up. Reboot. (Sound familiar?)
On the second attempt, it works OK. He starts trying out the different applications and getting used to it. He starts using the much-acclaimed MSIE for MacOS, and after browsing for awhile the system freezes up again. Reboot.
Later in the day, he wants some files off my Windows machine that he copied their before he trashed his old machine. Some MP3's. I figure, this'll be easy, right? It's fairly simple to access my Windows machine from my BeOS machine, so Mac must make it even more "user friendly."
Yeah right. Two hours (and several 3rd party application downloads) later, we've got a flaky connection to my PC using "DAVE." I don't remember the details (this happened a few months ago), but to put it mildly, DAVE was a pain in the ASS.
So we download these MP3's. Hmmm, what's this, some of them are not recognized? Oh shit the names got cut off because there was a shorter limit on MacOS filenames compared to my Windows MP3 filenames... so the ".mp3" got cut off and the Mac didn't make it too "user friendly" to get them working. (I ended up writing a perl script for the Windows machine to rename the long files before the transfer...)
The next day, he wants to get Quicken running again. I say, no problem, your iMac came with the latest version of Quicken! Surely this fine program will make it easy to import from your Windows Quicken files, right?
And so begins a day-long journey to get the Quicken files over to the iMac. I cannot describe how frustrating the MacOS file handler system is... it's ludicrous. BeOS is the king here with it's mimetype and smart filetype determination techniques. Windows at least let's me easily associate a program with a file extension. Christ I felt like a snake charmer trying to get MacOS to recognize the Quicken files we brought over from my machine! It was IMPOSSIBLE! The files would be sitting there, but you couldn't drag them onto Quicken to open them. If you double-clicked them, they opened in QuickTIME! I realize some Mac pro probably thinks I'm incredibly stupid, but I've been using computers for 18 years, and programming them for 5, and this was a huge pain in the ass!
Then on the third day, my roommate was getting pretty frustrated with the machine, and I was feeling real guilty for talking him into buying it. I tell him, if you will turn it back into Apple for a refund, I will build you a Windows PC that blows this iMac away.
Lo-and-behold, the company with the awesome hardware and "user friendly" operating system does NOT accept ANY returns WHATSOEVER. We told them everything -- it crashes, it's not user friendly, we are totally unsatisfied with the machine, etc. -- no deal! We complained to the BBB, and we got back a letter from Apple saying NO DEAL. I think that says a lot about their products. No money-back guarantee because they know (and I know now) that what sells the new Apple machines are the looks, and not the user-friendly OS!
So in rebuttal to the original post, the only way I'd give me grandma an iMac is if she put me in her will... if you know what I mean!
-thomas
"And like that
This is already happening - Microsoft's "no media, no transferrable licences" policy, that does little but piss off customers, is one that exists to save the OEMs money.
They get a simple choice: pay full-price for a regular licence + CD pack, or go down the "no media" route and get a hefty discount. The larger companies (Compaq, Dell, et al) go for it because it's that bit more profit on each sale; the smaller companies are then pressured into doing the same to keep their prices keen. As PCs get cheaper, saving $50 or so per machine is a lot - and most customers won't notice they don't have a proper Windows CD until it's too late.
It's naive, and as laden with hand-waving and blind faith as any 60's Maoist's ravings.
Microsoft can easily charge less for their software.
Umm, I thought all autos drove pretty much the same...I thought that they all pretty much used the same fuel and were the same basic design...Thats what I'm advocating, It would e great if there was actual competition to windows...but that actully runs windows software completly and runs realtivly the same so there is no learning curve between the two
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
This would depend a a couple of factors:
1)interface. if the windowing interface was similiar enough to windows, the learning curve would be minimal.
2)As far as your personal needs as far as setting up a system over the phone, I would gues a couple of days of just practicing that would do it. You would need to learn to do it from a command line, otherwise you may have to learn a few different windowing interfaces.
Having been through this, I can say the cost of re-training would be a lot less then the cost of keeping a MS system up and running.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Despite how much we all hate M$ It has a lot of money to survive and has a diversivied buisness plan. It managed to fight through lawsuits, larger compeitore (back in the day). And outright profit loss and yet it keep kicking.
microsoft is not going anywhere for a long time. It mayt change shape, its business model may change but I doubt it will die.
"Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
Then I'm afraid you'd be very wrong. Every big corporation I've worked at has held the ideal of having their MS Windows systems centrally managed, but in practice it never works very well, and I've experienced first hand one IT dept giving in to the task and emailing several hundred users instruction on how to install/upgrade apps themselves. You'd be horrified to know who that was, but I'm not at liberty to say.
.. if you/we/I were running an IT dept looking after several hundred users all running Linux on the desktop, and we wanted to upgrade them to the latest version, what IT friendly tools are there to roll out the upgrade in as painless a manner as possible? By that I mean NOT by walking round each one with a CD in hand, but some form of automaticly triggered network install! And how do these compare to the tools a Windows Admin would use? Maybe I should ask this as a Slashdot question, as it's likely to be a big factor in Linux being accepted en-mass on corporate desktops.
This is an interesting point actually
Anyone got any ideas?
Macka
Linux Journal a few months back. The realy amazing bit is how much M$ makes by playing with their own stock. Also keep in mind many of their coders are staying for the stock because they are not making what they could in salary so a decent sized slip in the stock price could really snowball on them. Collapse is a little extreme go way downhill from where they are now makes alot of sense.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
"and that they'll drop the M$ tax, and replace their bundled OS with something cheaper, like Linux" Can you imagine non-slashdot/well informed computer users trying to use linux? Windows is excellent for what it is. Dont get me wrong I love linux and use SuSe but there is no way the general public is computer savy enough to use linux.
I work as an IT consultant for a big bank, and they run NT only, its the standard, i dont think Microsoft will collapse, they still have all those extra services, new produkts, technet and so on..........
But its possible that M$ will lose some of the market to others, like linux...
'I sense much NT in you. NT leads to blue screen, blue screen leads to downtime, downtime leads to suffering.' -Uknown
I agree, it sounds terribly atypical, but that's my experience with it. I'm still trying to figure out why Explorer crashes so often and takes down the entire system. It's a stock install with only mild tweaking.
Yes. MS won't die any more than Apple Computer has. Althought somewhat arguable, the Macintosh is still managing to hang on, and K-12 schools and media professionals -still- drip for the latest "cubes" or "iFruits". Even in the dark dark days a couple of years ago, when Apple had less than zero corporate direction. They managed to tough it out, and stay alive. Even complacency has not yet killed it. So then, if all the stomping of a strong Win/LIntel base has not quashed the MacOS from our globe, surely it will take an as yet undiscovered miracle of physics to do so for Microsoft. As for Linux, Microsoft is good for Linux. Without Microsoft, Linux would not be where it is today. Sure, it stands on its own merits, but it was the zeal of those who are so tired of Microsoft that has accelerated the growth of Linux from a unique collaborative experiment, to a cutting-edge OS. Microsoft still has that effect on the Linux community. If MS didn't exist, then Linux would just be that other OS one would be use if the drivers weren't available in FreeBSD.
USNG: 14TPU4605
I have no desire to torment people by dredging up memories of THAT, besides it supported it no more than 95a did with the patch that came with the usb card
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
I don't think you are correct.
They are _very_ different scenarios. The first is entirely possible depending on just how much they've been 'cooking' the books over there- they're running a stock pyramid and not charging option pay against earnings and the real situation could be absolutely anything- their financial statements should not be considered trustworthy. The second scenario is impossible. No matter what happens to MS, people will be using the software for quite some time, just out of habit and due to the momentum of the platform. This is orthoganal to MS's ability to earn real money- in fact their titanic installed base and interoperability with PC components is their worst enemy as well as Linux's, because they too have to replace all that W95/98 out there in order to maintain a marketshare of _new_ products. It may be mostly Windows out there but they were already paid for it and won't be seeing revenue from all those boxes again- it is a formidable handicap and very expensive proposition to maintain compatability with all the stuff out there.
If MS collapses as a business in 6 months, it'll be because their accounting was even sleazier than I thought. MS as an installed base won't be collapsing anytime soon, but it also isn't necessarily going to do MS the company any good.
--
I've tried apples...I must say there much better deep fried I know what plug and play means...no....neither does mac...LARGE fraction...well Have YOU used windows Are you pulling this out of your ass Windows 98 supports every usb device I've ever used and I've used lots of them windows 2k supports more windows me suports more It supports it as well as it does everything else
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
Hardly. Even if everything was pre-installed, bundled, shipped... all that nummy stuff... Linux isn't ready for the mass-market. People are dumb. One person may not be, but people as a whole are. No way is Joe Newbie gonna be able to install drivers, much less troubleshoot the beast. In ignorance, Microsoft is safe. So long as people are lazy and stupid, Microsoft is gonna be doing well.
--The Kid
So it goes.
about 1 tenth of the interview is content.
Visit my website xpenguin.com -- A linux penguin website
--
all you dorks saying what users want is pretty annoying. i am a user, i write no applications that i use. i don't give a fuck about windows shit, i would be perfectly happy running solaris (so i can use my tools at work) and maybe a windows application so i can read other peoples excel files, etc. if everybody at my company used suns suite, i wouldn't need windows. so who are you to say what users want, considering you are completely wrong!
I suspect ESR is correct in the assumption that MS will fail as a monopoly. One fact I base this on is Microsoft's tatics of forceing sales of product by the use of AUDITS. Witness how much a certain city paid just to have their audit over with. How much of their income is derived from audits? Anybody else want to admit they paid off MSs to end an audit? I know also that MS is useing a 'suspected software pirate' list that they generate. Anybody else ever here of this? The company I work for got e-mail from MS that told us we are on this list "...because we did not register enough copies of the Back Office CAL to run a company of our size...". I bet we will end up shelling out a boatload of money to get off this list and prevent an audit. MS is sinking to what I consider blackmail tatics to keep their income comeing in. zenray
zenray
"Two, four, six, eight God is dead and Nietzche's great!"- ---------
-----------------------------------------------
I bent my wookie
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I bent my wookie
While ESR's blind ilegance to the light side of the force is usually encouraging, in this case it's laughable. Microsoft isn't going anywhere... Hell my parents just upgraded to Windows 98 - that means that they'll beusing it for another 5 years... and they're the technilogical savy couple in their neighborhood. Get my drift? So sayeth the Jakyll.
1) Son of a Bush settles the federal case.
2) SOB pushes M$ throughout government.
3) M$ starts running a major PR campaign against linux, with a bunch of "frankenstein" horror stories, replete with viruses, hacks, etc from their "linux labs".
There is hope that the strong presence of IBM and AMD in Texas may well mitigate the uber-rights' influence on SOB to perform tasks 1/2...not to mention the close election...he may not want to infuriate the CA and UT reps/senators at this point.
But if the uber-right forces SOB to perform 1/2, I have no doubt M$ will push 3), then it would only be a short time till they control it all and start sending us monthly bills...the grand microsoft end game.
Then it will be up to a few of the euro and asian countries (perhaps china) to pull Linux back.
Great Big Googly Moogly, M$ has at least 30B in cash, plus a wide variety of investment income, and several apps that are selling at least somewhat at this point.
All they need now is for SOB to make DOJ settle the fed case...after which several states will drop out...and it will be back to "fleecing as usual".
I can't believe people are buying into the whole "oh yeah, i want to pay a microsoft bill every month, just like my phone bill". Geez, people, just stop using their crap and help Linux...that's the single best way to get rid of M$...and insure you never end up with a monthly software "Bill".
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
I told my girlfriend it couldn't be a co-incedence....
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
Face it, Europe sucks and America (that includes Canada and Mexico) rules!!!- -----------------
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I bent my wookie
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I bent my wookie
ah my dad does a bit of engineering work that requires Real Processing Power on it.
-
it will be exactly the thing you all hate. An overblown inefficient and buggy piece of work.
-
Lack of hardware and software support? What lack are you talking about? Serious lack? Cards absolutely not configurable in Linux? Show me that please. Show me a field that is fully not Linux supportable. That you don't have one single turnaround.
Unification. The HELL with that!!!!! I DON'T want unification and most Linux users DON'T want that. The Hell with these KDE/Gnome wars. Let them both live in the herd. I'm neutral to them as I neither use none of their desktop managers. And i don't need common users hanging on BlackBoxes or WindowMakers.
Developing Mac/Windows complex apps? What do you mean by this? I am an ex-Windows/DOS developer and I saw three years of my life going through the pipes due to M$ "permanent revolution' of their SDKs. I have not seen worser Hell then to support a Windows app. Every three/six months a new patch or debug to hold apps in place. And every one of it taking days to solve, because M$, once again, decided to make changes to its super-embedded system. So you have to dig up sometimes farer than their SDKs. And they forbid reverse engineering. Oh my!..
Command lines are throwback? Do you realise what are you talking about? You have an automatised app doing a very specific job of sending and receiving files. Why the HELL I need to bloat it with a GUI interface? WHY DO I NEED IT?? If I can do 90% of the administration by using a command with three/four options on it? Why do I need to slowdown things, bloat them and cut my chance of combining commands, do batch tasks and more complex stuff?
And what concerns my friends needing help on Linux does not mean Windows ones need less. For them we have two whole departments of FIFTEEN people! One for the STUPID questions, the other for the less dumb ones. The last group is three persons only. Besides they support Windows desktops ONLY. Windows servers are FORBIDDEN inside our ISP network for very OBVIOUS reasons.
DOS was a consumer OS, just like Windows ME is a consumer OS. How did MS gain so much momentum? On the back of DOS. There was a huge application base already there. That's why MS has bent over backwards to provide compatibility with old DOS programs. I can run programs that required 128K of RAM and DOS 2.0 without any problems on Windows 98.
Why did DOS have such a hoard of apps? It wasn't the "geeks" that drove this kind of growth.
Linux was a geek toy in 1998. Today you can install and run a distro without ever seeing a CLI. You can configure your system without opening a text editor. Today you can install a vanilla Linux and never have to "massage" it.
Sure, there are occasional problems with hardware. Linux doesn't have as good hardware support as Windows does. X can be a little ambiguous, but there are already plenty of folks who are bent on making it more "usable." In general, there aren't nearly so many issues like there were when I first installed RH 4.2.
The lack of "Linux on the Desktop" isn't necessarily a problem with the OS. It's a problem with the apps. Which Linux apps will give it the leverage to compete with Windows? Yeah, it has good apps for many things. Are they compatible with Windows? What about games?
See, Linux, as an OS, is fine for the consumers. Red Hat, Gnome, KDE and others are seeing to it. But what are the consumers going to do with it?
Meanwhile, many "geeks" are finding Linux to be too dumbed down, commercialized and mainstream. They are looking for obscure distros, or moving to some BSD or other.
My dad installs hardware on it..he just wants to plug it in, run the install software and be done with it. He doesnt want to a driver hunt and try to "make" it work.
Linux has a high standard of ease of use to come up against - Windows. And windows has 10 years of lead time.
And this is why microsoft wont collapse. ESR is a lunatic if he truly believes that. Linux is a developer and hobbyist OS. People who like to tinker with their underworkings in their computer... not the mainstream user and other delusions of grandeur. By the time linux becomes such an OS, it will be as crufty and unwieldy as windows.
-
...ESR didn't say that MICROSOFT was going to collapse. He said that their MONOPOLY would collapse. In other words, they would have to compete on more equal ground. Given how many people read your editorializing, I think it is important to make that distinction in your comments.
Screw Micro$oft.
There is no way Microsoft is going to collapse in 6 months. None.
Microsoft has so many different streams of income that cutting one off will do nothing to the company. They may need to reorganize, they may need to downsize, but collapse? No way. Also, I fail to see what is so bad about Microsoft. If you want people to switch to Linux, you don't need to kill Microsoft. It seems a bit hypocritical that their strategy is to destroy all their competitors, and we hate them for it, yet when they might go down we all cheer.
Competition is good, and Microsoft isn't going anywhere.
Linux and other distros will always continue to majke money through hardware and support. Keep the Software free and solid. Keep the quality of the equipment ahead of the next step. Look at VA. Tell me they don't have it right.
a/s/l here. Sorry, adding domain tags to your s
The ORG that makes the only browser and the only OS on the market that you can use without having to put in more INPUT than reaping OUTPUT will collapse. Yeah! My white honkey ass! Doesn't anyone out there realize that there are those who actually USE computers as TOOLS ans not TOYS? Who want to write a letter to someone by email or write an online manuscript while having to type 10 times more code instruction into the stupid machine than the object text comprises? ....except maybe a misinformed geek that never communicated to a real human being in his life..., a geek muck like me except for the aforementioned exception. The fact is that MS is here to stay about as long as the good ol' USA or the Roman Empire, for that matter. Gates' kid could have bought the Roman Empire with his pocket change.
ONE MORE THING...AAAANDDDD
Don't talk about privacy. MSN is less intrusive than any other site. SLASHDOT cannot be used (as a member) without third party cookies, just like HOTMAIL. The only problem is that the MSN site SUCKS whereas the SLASHDOT site doesn't.
"Oblivion is just a click away." -Aazz
How many corp end users havr to set up anything. None I would say.
Too many people appear to confuse this with some kind of "home" setup.
It's the sysadmin's job.
Guess what? The last thing any sysadmin wants are end users installing their own software, messing around with low level settings, etc. Whilst these may be a plus for a home system they are a disaster waiting to happen in the corporate world.
If I have a problem with access to the internet, say, I phone up the IT helpdesk and they sort it out for me. Linux would be just the same.
If it was a problem with your machine it's less likely that you'd get booted out of your seat though...
If the transition between 95/98 to 2000 is difficult for them, imagine how moving from 95/98 to Linux would be!
At worst equally hard. Quite possibly less hard, because the people have less reason to cling to their Windows 9x assumptions.
Their software market has fallen into a hole already, and they're basically coasting in investment earnings, frantically shovelling money around to temporarily cover their nakedness.
However, borrowing from the Peter Dept to pay the Paul Dept has always had a limited future and this case is no exception.
The plug has been pulled, but bath isn't empty yet. The Bill and Steve show are splashing around and loudly commenting on ``how fulsome and enjoyable this bath is.''
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The whole wizard-driven nature of Windows (like it or loathe it - I tend to the latter) means that most of them can set up stuff without needing more knowledgable people about. Installing programs is usually a couple of clicks, and there's an icon in the start menu so they can find it and run it.
Or youc an do this and BANG dump of the CPU registers on a blue screen. There might be an icon in the start menu but it could easily be something obscure and far from intuitive.
You'll know when linux reaches the mainstream...
When we get clippy the interactive Red Hat configuration wizard
I don't believe in copying windos, it's the primary reason I use neither KDE nor gnome - they're trying so hard to be windos-like that it sickens me.
My complaint is more in copying the Windows approach of self administration. As a sysadmin I want to be able to set up a machine such that a use can simply login and use it. Rather than being expected to setup things like what browser proxy to use or mess around configuring POP3/IMAP access to files directly accessible in the first place. Also the ability to restrict changing configurations, either for all users or for specific users and/or groups...
Doing away with anti-monopoly laws would be a good thing. Then nobody could have an excuse for buying Microsoft. "I'll let the government take care of Microsoft," would ring a bit hollow.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
The MS case is a LEGAL case, or hadn't you noticed. If the president could exert significant influence on legal proceedings, then how the hell do you explain the Supreme Court siding with Bush, despite the Democrat in the White House, or for that matter the Florida Supreme Court siding with Gore despite Bush's brother in the Governor's Mansion? This case is out of Bush's hands. Unless he pushes a bill through congress which does away with anti-monopoly laws (hardly seems likely given the make-up of congress), he cannot do anything to impede the case.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Richard: Good to see you here (I remember your excellent contribution
to the DOJ vs. MS trial analysis). If Bush *were* (I think it
unlikely) to try to get Microsoft of the hook, realistically, what do
you think his options are?
Im sorry there is no way Ms will be collapsing in 6 months. Not everyone in this world knows how to use linux well and efficentlly. Can you grandma or granpda use linux? no... can your 8 year old sister grep for her report on teletubbies? no... To say that MS will collapse in 6 months is obsurd. The demand for windows is still there and will be for quite a while. And now with MS releasing whistler in Q3 of 2001, i highly doubt they would collapse before releasing whistler and Visual studio.net
Microbytes is already offering Linux as the standard OS installed on all of their PCs, but the only reason they state is to dodge the so-called "Windows Tax" and give the end user a cheaper PC. Keep in mind this store sells custom-built PCs, and the reason they state for installing Linux is that they all know everyone has a copy of Windows and the clientel are perfectly capable of installing it themselves. In other words, they don't want to re-sell it.
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
Slashdot's been great recently with article titles, I think this one makes it even higher than the 'crack' article.
http://dtum.livejournal.com
Wishful Thinking.
>Well, okay, that and a need for easier-to-use >install routines for new software - though I hear
>there are projects underway for that, too.
If you check out Mandrake >= 7.1 (possibly other distros.) you will notice that URPMI is installed, with a nice GUI front end available. It allows me to search for the RPM containing a specified file (just like a *.deb package). This system stores a database of which RPMs are stored on which CD (very handy on a multi-CD distribution). Checkout www.linux-mandrake.com/
And remember, today is the first day of the rest of your life.
However, makers of $1000 PCs are still willing to pay it. I doubt this will change within six months.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Hrmm.
;).
I like Linux and use it at home myself. I would like to see it succeed, but as I said - I'm not the person to do it. My belief/hope/vision/etc is that if you look at Linux as it could be - maybe, just maybe, it could actually become that.
The thing is, do we WANT Linux to superceed Windows? Sure, us geeks would like the corporate giant to fall to the idealistic environment (for us), but I'm sure many non-computer-geek people would prefer to stagnate in mediocracy (sp).
Microsoft provides a relativly complete system geared for the home user. Linux is simply not this...
Linux __IS__ a better choice for servers and performance apps. Comparing Windows 9x to Linux is like comparing a Crysler Acclaim to a 18-Wheel Mac Truck - they are both "vehicles" but anyone can tell you that they are designed to do completly different things.
I don't think Linux will "get" the Desktop, nor do I really think it should go there. The interface is simply not oriented for users. BeOS, Aqua, etc, _are_ user oriented and desktop driven. Linux is a sandbox for technology - look at all the crap being thrown into the kernel, most of which the average joe does not need/have/want in their system. Again, great for geeks, bad for the average person.
Again, personal opinions
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
I know someone's wildly optimistic. If I just list names long enough I'm bound to get it right...
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Isn?t it? :)
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
I wonder if ESR has even read MS's documents about .NET. This - and other signs - show that we have a paradigm shift coming and the matter of desktop dominance would soon be irrelevant. MS is now ambitiously aiming at having dominant position in e-business and data exchange between businesses with their current line of products (named .NET servers) and the vision of "programmable web" etc.
If they'll succeed with .NET then I wouldn't be surprised if they would start giving away basic desktop versions of Windows for free. Why? Because by then most information flowing on-line would flow through MS based systems and most transactions on-line would be made with MS systems.
However, most OpenSource advocates are too concentrated on technology to notice that coming.
We can DREAM can't we?
Somehow I dont think computer manufacturers are going to just give up windows for something like linux. "unpolished" is the understatement of the year. Linux has years of work ahead of it before it can even think about being used by Joe Blow, if it ever reaches that point (and I dont really think it will). 6 months from now i'm going to pull this article up and just laugh, as nothing will have changed in 6 months. Probably nothing will change in a year.
I've always said, if my mom cant use it, it's not ready for mainstream.
-
well that's a nice idea and all, but a company with as much money in the bank (cold hard cash -- look at their balance sheet) as Microsoft isn't going away anytime soon. not to mention the fact that they're a household name now.
:), they have spread their business out to more than just operating systems. eventually that business may become less profitable, but they're hardly on ther verge of collapse, and have plenty to fall back on.
plus they may loose some marketshare in the operating systems market, but that's not going to effect their game sales, server-side sales, hardware, or application software sales much at all. the people that run Microsoft aren't stupid (believe it or not
- j
/me scans his desktop and sees the trash icon
;)
heh.. never noticed that
It's not that Linux is any harder to learn than Windows is. It's different and people are learning Windows - not Linux. Tell someone that everything they learned is (basically) useless and that they will now need to learn a new system. Yes, some basic things will carry over, but apples and oranges here.
As for running as "root" (which I checked, and I haved logged in as root twice)... another thing that needs to be hidden from the average user.
Case in point:
A ITSS (Information Technology Support Services) course at the school just got Windows 2000 on their systems (as a beta group) and they had to move from 95 (their last year system) to 2000. Most of these people were knowledgabe 95 users with good technical and troubleshooting skills - under 95. Simply moving to 2000 gave them A LOT of problems. Hell, they have to install NT 4 as part of their course and they are having troubles with THAT (and I don't mean crashing - I mean figuring out how to partition, choose options, etc). If the transition between 95/98 to 2000 is difficult for them, imagine how moving from 95/98 to Linux would be!
Let me say that I am a proud Linux zealot. I plaster penguin stickers all over the place and try to get people interested in the various packages out there and what they can DO with it. But it comes down to the fact that people have FINALLY gotten around to accepting computers as a household tool and are now hesitating about switching to something new.
Oh well.
;)
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Thanks. It's always nice to be appreciated.
:),
It would presumably take the form of appointing an Attorney General who
would petiti0on to dismiss the case. Microsoft would certainly agree
but the other states wouldn't. This would simply remove the feds as a
party, but not otherwise affect the case.
Bush has indicated support for such a dismissal in the past, but I
expect his position would change when fully briefed. The general
free-market position is to avoid anti-trust actions, as they're
usually not justified by the economics. I agree with this, and fit
in firmly with Bork and Posner on it. However, after analysis, this
is one of the other cases.
Another possibility would be that the DOJ could push for a milder
remedy. This is possible; I'm certain there will be a remedy,
but I won't bank on the form. I believe that a split would actually
be less intrusive than any of the other possibilities, all of
which would require heavy-handed government involvement in running
the company. Were I a microsoft shareholder, I would much prefer
a split than such intrusion.
hawk, esq., etc.
Heck, I never quite succeeded in a fully functional 3.1 installation . . . I hve to resort to the default reinstallation . . .
hawk
There are a couple markets in which unrestricted monopolies might be better than what we have now (I might even argue that MS is one of them, but this is neither the time nor the place), but there's a lot more markets with a small number of suppliers that would LOVE to fix prices. The airline industry is a perfect example. If United, Delta, American, and Southwest got together, they could all double their prices and make a ton, at the great expense of the consumer. They STILL fix prices as it is, but at least if one of them doesn't do what he's supposed to, the other airlines can't sue.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
He basically says that the drop in PC prices will cut into the margins that PC sellers can afford, and that they'll drop the M$ tax, and replace their bundled OS with something cheaper, like Linux.
The last thing PC manufacturers would do in response to shrinking margins would be to switch from Windows to Linux. The choice of OS isn't simply about per-unit margin costs; it factors in such novel concepts as Will most people actually buy or use a computer with this OS on it?
Nevermind that most of the world runs on Windows already and couldn't switch to Linux for that reason alone. Nevermind that no Windows runtime environment or emu for Linux is 100% accurate or up-to-date with the latest shipped version of Windows, and so you can't run 100% of Windows applications on it. Nevermind the fact that cheap hardware shortcuts like WinModems that increase margins won't work with Linux. Nevermind the fact that 99.9999% of computer games aren't available on Linux.
Just considering the ease-of-use issue, if Gateway were to install Linux instead of Windows on its machines, they wouldn't be able to sell half of the computers they do now. Home users wouldn't buy (or buy and keep) machines pre-installed with Linux because they would be far too difficult for them to use.
Like it or not, Linux is only properly suited for being a harcore computer user's OS, or a network server of some kind. No matter how many layers of desktop environment or GUI you throw over top of it, it's still too complex for most people to configure and maintain, and most of the desktop-style apps for it still suck.
- "It's just a matter of opinion!" - PRIMUS
case is that it is one of the handful of anti-trust cases that Bork
has actually supported.
I think I can't resist asking another question: Microsoft seem to
be basing their appeal on the argument that Jackson showed persitent
bias throughout the trial, confirmed by the lack of consultation over
the proposed remedy. Do you think they have much chance of success
with this?
A preconfigured system with Win/Mac functionality and connectivity out of the box, a cool intuitive interface such as eazel on it (Dell), office functionality (even if lacking the more esoteric features of commerical software) would be very attractive to consumers.
Working for this type of computer system would be the subscription type methods of software sales being adopted by the current market dominators, where it is no longer possible to choose to remain with an older version of a product.
It won't suit some poeple and for others, it would be just right. Poeple who are not overly familiar with the techology itself will have a choice which can easily be explained to them.
RG
Microsoft hasn't got where it is today by being stupid. They have the unpopular MS-Tax thing covered.
They're planning on moving over to annual charges for using their software, which should see the prices of OEM licences dropping. Okay, it's being replaced by another, even less popular tax but they need to keep Gates in beige trousers somehow.
Of course, people will probably end up paying more in total, but this kind of give-with-one-hand-take-with-the-other trick has worked successfully for governments for years.
Quite on the contrary. I think the more Linux will resemble a windows desktop, and the more applications will provide the same degree of userfriendlyness and GUI comfort, the more people might actually want to make a choice between the 2 platforms. So if linux wants to take the desktop by storm, it needs to target and please current windows users, because that's the largest group. Everybody talks about 'World Domination' these days, well, this is the way to do it. Look at GNOME, GIMP, GTK, KDE, ENLIGHTMENT.. these things sprang to life with that bold ambition firmly entrenched within. Windows2000 isn't bad from a regular user's perspective. It contains everything they want and need. The only thing it fails to provide is personal freedom, and an open culture. You're running microsoft code. Period. This is where linux can ultimately offer more. All the rest is details.
So no, these small distributions certainly have their uses, but any windows user can go out and buy a big 6 cd-set distribution any time for a very fair price. I'm curious if the point that was made earlier about the windows monopoly collapse will really hit the ground. If hardware prices continue to drop, things might indeed start shifting away from that microsoft tax fast!
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Sorry it's so late; missed the story.
APPLESCRIPT CODE:
on open fileList
tell application "Finder"
repeat with i in fileList
set filePath to i as string
display dialog
"Open with..." buttons {"Select", "Never mind."} default button "Select"
set fav to button returned of result
if fav is "Select" then
tell application "Finder"
activate
set creator type of file filePath to creator type of (choose file with prompt "MacRocks You")
open selection
end tell
end if
end repeat
end tell
end open
END OF CODE.
Compile it, drop typeless files on it (one at a time or it'll go insane), and pick the application you want them associated with. Even has a li'l GUI. Whee!
(I can't believe the guy above didn't just ask a MacDork what to do. DAVE? Please.)
Your mouth is like Columbus Day.
I'm sure some other megacorporation would love to fill the void left behind. If it's not microsoft, don't worry, it will be someone else.
--
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
ESR sez: and that they'll drop the M$ tax, and replace their bundled OS with something cheaper, like Linux
....and completely ignore what the general public wants, selling them computers that can't run their favorite software and games. Yeah, companies last real long when they do that. I hear DVD drives are expensive too, perhaps OEMs will drop them and replace them with Betamax drives.
NO CARRIER
However, I think the fall of Microsoft, whenever it comes, is going to come from below.
Or it might come when the 'gestalt' of the situation is right. I'm thinking of the 'nuclear accident' scenario, where several small and otherwise 'inconsequential' mistakes, were made, which in combination created a sudden and unstoppable 'shock'.
Debating where these small sparks might come from may be more interesting that the big "yes it will/no it won't" argument here on /.
We still use the system because we don't listen to our government.
.30 caliber rifle ammunition (aka "7.62mm NATO") to protest the decision ;-)
See, the U.S. Constitution only allows Congress to set weights and measures, and the only weights and meaures Congress ever authorized was the Metric system, back in 1866. In 1875 we were one of the original signatories of the Treaty of the Meter. Since 1893, the internationally agreed-to metric standards have served as the fundamental measurement standards of the United States.
So, we've been legally metric longer than Australia's been independent. But we'll still be using U.S. Customary (which isn't really the same as Imperial, although most of the units are the same) until some bureaucrats start issuing fines for using it. Even then, we'll probably use
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
We've been hearing similar stuff about Apple for years now. What'll be funny is if M$ does indeed start going downhill and Jobs has to bail them out.
--
Dyolf Knip
MS will not be hurt financially in the near future until business users stop demanding that their apps have question asking paper clips!!!
------------------------------------------
If God Dropped Acid, Would he see People???
What are we going to do tonight Brain?
Death of Microsoft, Film at Eleven!
The site seems to be slashdotted.
Here's a mirror
Flavio
fact is, Linux is just as useable as windos is. I make that statement with some background knowledge: I've installed Linux for several people with ZERO prior computer knowledge, and it works just fine. sure, I sometimes have to come over and set up this or that, but it's no more than with windos users. probably less, because Linux doesn't go on a self-destruct rampage every now and then.
the valid point in your argument, however, is the applications and games. e-mail and surfing is fine with mozilla or netscape. my sister (definitely a "user") uses LyX for her diploma work and other papers and she's quite happy about it. but the games landscape is still very thin, especially if you want to be part of some "in" crowd. same with many more specific applications.
but the problem isn't useability. as a matter of fact, windos is pretty shabby on the useability scale. it has gross inconsistencies, a marketing-designed user-interface with no clear boundary between eye-candy and functionality, etc, etc. it APPEARS useable merely because we're all used to it.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
people actually listen to what Microsoft says. You might say they are deluded or naive, but the point is that MS marketing works on the masses.
/. post for evidence.
The only people who listen to what linux people say are other linux people. When I point general people who are curious about linux to pro-linux sites, they tune out out of annoyance from the sheer chest-thumping and patriotic drivel. Just read a random
Yeah, go back to making wisecracks on MS and high-fiving each other. MS is still beating linux on marketshare and winning more newbies every year. Meanwhile, linux supporters keep wallowing in self congratulation. I thought the behavior would change, but it's getting more deluded than ever before.
method 1:Use the PC file exchange to set up Windows file types/extensions. When I download a file from the internet (*.qif) without a file type in the resource fork...this file association will be automatic if I have that set up
.qif-to-Quicken mappings, but they never worked correctly.
.html file into my text editor if I want to edit it, even though it is assocated with MSIE.
:-/
I tried the PC file exchange application, and it was totally unintuitive. (I don't remember the details of why I thought that, but I do remember thinking that.) We did try to setup
method 2:Did you try 'import' from the Quicken application?
Yep! And equally frustrating, the import window could never 'see' the quicken files we were trying to open. We would navigate to that directory on the HD, and those files would simply not appear, so we could not select them for importing!
A question then...What happens on Windows if two competing vendors of software decide to use the same extension? One installs over the other and the registry is all kinds of wacked. Is there some process/protocol/method to manage that sort of potential conflict?
No, but I never run into a problem. I usually don't have a filetype that I want to open in two different programs that often. But unlike what I say in the MacOS, I could drag a
I agree that Be is a good OS. Tried it...liked it, but it has similar drawbacks to Linux to average joe end user, no?
Uhhh, no? BeOS is incredibly easy to use, more-so than Windows, and especially Linux. My brother (a total newbie) boots into BeOS simply because the CD burner that comes with R5 is so much easier to use than anything he has in Windows! Linux is by far THE hardest OS I've seen in terms of installation, configuration, maintenance, software upgrades, and driver installation/upgrades.
That said...I'm very excited for OS X!!! Hope you enjoy it!
I hope so, too. Then again, I probably will not try it until Apple comes out with some less expensive hardware (and/or offers a money-back guarantee).
-thomas
"And like that
Australia changed to decimal currency in 1966.
Adoption of the metric system didn't happen until (I think) 1971.
Look into it. Your grandfather could use it better then windows yet it will serve your enterprise.
War is necrophilia.
If the file they deleted was on a network drive it's also gone on windows. Windows does not save files into the trashcan if the file is on a network drive. With a properly set up linux the sysadmin can restore that file over the wire using telnet and never has to get up from his desk. It's even easier if the comapny was running novell BTW.
War is necrophilia.
PC makers will, and probably have been, sick of the mandatory MS license. I don't think that switching to Linux would save them though.
For one thing, they would need to pay the cost of training all their employees on whatever Linux flavor they plan on shipping. I'm not a Linux guy so I don't know the answer to how often updates are released and how much those updates change things that the average user wouldn't understand.
Right now I work at a software dev shop / ISP and the ISP side of it isn't too bad. Anybody that calls up and says they have Linux, all I need to give them is the DNS and phone numbers. I don't know how long it would take for me to master Linux to the point where I could walk somebodies grandfather through setting up dial-up networking. It might not be too bad from what I have seen of Linux. Probably no worse than the different flavors of Windows that they keep moving the network settings around in.
Still, I think the initial cost of retraining and rebuilding knowledge bases would be prohibitive.
However, there may be a coup against MS and the vendors will band together and tell MS who's their daddy. In any case, it'll be interesting.
This was one of the funniest things I've read on Slashdot in a long time! Give this convo a +5 Funny! I'm assuming this is a joke, right...?
Randall.
Property law should use #'EQ, not #'EQUAL.
I'm not sure that it's even one of the few--off the cuff, I can't recall any others that he supported.
I think microsoft's chances are very slim. If the fact that a judge was
underwhelmend and annoyed by the incompetence and misconduct of the
attorney's before him became grounds for reversal, the system would
be in *big* trouble. Ruling against you is not a sign of bias . . .
hawk
They will NEVER remove Windows from PC's and replace it with something cheaper/free. 95% of all PC owners DO NOT want Linux on the desktop because it won't run the apps they need in everyday life.
The question you have to ask yourself is this. Which company can last longer giving its product away from free? MS or Dell/Compaq/Gateway? Obviously its MS so all MS has to do is nothing at all and the PC manufacturers will have to eat the cost or pass it along to us because they can't slice their own margins any thinner. Haven't you been listening? That's what monopolies are for. To maintain the price at any arbitrary level regardless of the market. And you know what? Let's say the doomsday scenario comes to pass and Dell/Compaq/Gateway go under. Someone will step in to take their place and MS will just continue to sell Windows to them, this time though for a higher price.
Guess what: the U.S. DOJ is *not* the only victorious plaintiff in the suit. Even if it were to dismiss, you still have a gaggle of states who would press on for remedy. He'll also probably get better economic and anti-trust advice, and see that an unfettered microsoft is *not* pro-competitive, but that's a side issue.
The question is not whether or not the suit will be dropped, but what the remedy is. While I'm at it, the folks opposing the breakup because the free-market will take care of it are right about the market--but the market will take a few (5-10?) years, during which consumers continue to lose billions of dollars to the illegal practices.
Also, the notion that Linux is tricky to configure while windcows is not seems to come from people who actually haven't configured both of them (you may have tried, but that would make you a rare exception). Installing windows from scratch is *much* harder. And when the machine ships with an OS, the user doesn't have to configure it either way.
hawk, antitrust lawyer and economics professor
However, Microsoft still has the patented Evil Secret Escape Pod of subscription-based software...so the minute we see their operating system prices come down (in fact they could even do this themselves on purpose), I expect we'll see most of the other software people are dependent on them for to switch to a subscription basis, and *blam*, they maintain their lock.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Unfortunately for IT depts and hapless users everywhere a single DLL in a single program can crush your machine like a paper cup.
I for one hope to god there is no linux for dummies if I wanted to use an OS for dummies I'd use windows.
War is necrophilia.
Secondly I think that independent re-discovery of the technique should be an affirmative defense against patent infringement, that is, you can't patent a technique, keep it secret, and if then somebody else uses the same technique, suddenly surfaces with the patent and say "oh, here's our secret technique which we have patented, and this means you can't use it."
ESR is either being overly simplistic to make a point or he's ignorant of what a patent IS. You can't "patent a technique [and] keep it secret." A patent means that you make your invention a matter of PUBLIC RECORD. In return, you have a time-limited monopoly on the use of your invention. Because patenet information is available to everyone (legally speaking), you can't re-discover it, anymore than you can re-discover relativity. Sure, you could learn the same mathematics Einstein knew, start with his postulates, and proceed to the same conclusions, but NO ONE would suggest that you had re-discovered relativity.
Since patents are a matter of public record, it could become very difficult to sue someone for infringement. I could secretly research your patent. I could conduct a few months of phony research - perform experiments, build devices, and (most importantly) keep careful records. whatever. I could then 're-invent' your device, and I'd have the paperwork to show that it was independent. How would an outsider know that I had actually stolen it? How would you prove it? Yet stealing it is what I would have done.
I do agree that 'submarine' patents are bad; applications for patents should become immediately matters of public record.
i think esr is on crack
method 1:Use the PC file exchange to set up Windows file types/extensions. When I download a file from the internet (*.qif) without a file type in the resource fork...this file association will be automatic if I have that set up
method 2:Did you try 'import' from the Quicken application?
method 3: If you're braveUse ResEdit and massage the file type/creator codes to work for you. I once even wrote and apple script or frontier scipt to do that for me. Of course, you had to know the codes...but what the heck.
A question then...What happens on Windows if two competing vendors of software decide to use the same extension? One installs over the other and the registry is all kinds of wacked. Is there some process/protocol/method to manage that sort of potential conflict?
I agree that Be is a good OS. Tried it...liked it, but it has similar drawbacks to Linux to average joe end user, no?
So what keeps M$ from being a monopoly? On my desktop, it's finding other solutions, but using an M$ product if indeed it is a better product. I've been trying IE 5 for Mac lately...and I must admit (sadly) that it is better than Netscape. I have a recent Mozilla build on my Mac too...not quite there.
That said...I'm very excited for OS X!!! Hope you enjoy it!
Galego
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
6 Months? I'd say 6 years instead. Simply because people are just not ready to take on something like linux. I see PC and Mac users who are fairly advanced users, have problems even getting their modems to work in a linux distro. And now someone is saying that in 6 months M$ is going to go down in a ball of flames? I'm sorry, that's too much wishful thinking for this guy.
And even if Gates' Pony took a nose dive, a majority of people whould still sit on their Win-Boxes because it does set them up with all of what they want their computers for which is internet, e-mail, web, music, and games. And Linux, on certain configurations, will do this, but the percentage of people getting all their devices installed is still a very low percentage compared to MS-Windows.
Hate to play the ms-fan here, I really am not a fan of it, but I keep in mind my family and their friends who are all pretty much newbies to computers, and remembering all the calls I get usually about 'What is this? Is this good? How do I get it to stop doing this?' and that's on WinBoxes, now I imagine the headaches with linux in place of Windows, and I get my answer of 'People are not ready...yet.'
As big as Microsoft is, they could still fall. If they did - their technology would not fade away. Does anyone really believe that IBM Mainframes would have dried up in two years if IBM had gone under? A technology with the install base of Windows draws it's long term viability from it's ubiquity - not from the company that created it. Linux has a huge install base with no company directing it - why would Windows need one?
iirc, at least one of the window managers which comes with RH already has a Start button©©©I think KDE and Fvwm both have Start buttons©
--
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
Where's the 'incoherent' mod when you need it?
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
Microsoft third best selling software is Office for the Mac. I do not see that business going away anytime soon.
hey... i think you're on to something... seems to me like it's already happening
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
I'm not going to claim to be an authority on this, just gonna give my two cents and let the slashdot crowd tell me if I'm off my rocker here.
;)
Linux is good. It's not great, yet, but good. I can name several big institutions that run their entire network with Linux, FreeBSD, and DU. It's a great system for computer enthusiasts, "hackers" (not necessarily the malicious kind), and geeks. It is still not ready, however, for the average computer user. I know this because I work support for the average computer user and have a good understanding of what users want.
Users DO NOT want to spend days figuring out how to setup a device. Nor do they care about kernel level optimizations or text-file configurations. They, as their name implies, USE the computer to play games, browse the Internet, process documents, and draw pictures. Linux HAS all of this, except it is missing the components that keep the low level "tech" from them. Case in point: most Windows users will stare at you blankly if you ask them ANYTHING about the "command prompt" or "dos-mode". Isn't that something they got rid of a long time ago? Wasn't it something only used when computers were a geek toy? The answer is YES. Windows, for the most part, does not require the user to operate the CLI at all. Linux, OTOH, almost requires the user to have at least some familarity with the console and text-files, directory structure and conf file locations. Why do some "personal" versions of Linux come pre-installed with a web-server? Huh? It's still AIMED at people interested in computers.
Maybe a splinter group (or is there one out there?) should focus on adapting Linux to the common person - one that my mother could use, and one that I don't have to spend days massaging (note that I enjoy playing with Linux on a lower level, so this isn't really a concern for me).
I think, at the present time, Linux can NOT replace Windows on the average desktop - and possibly not for at least another year. Add to that the fact that Linux/X is a much different experience than Windows.
BeOS, OTOH, is a much better direction in terms of something to de-throne the giant.
Bah, but what do I know anyhow?
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
From Microsoft's latest balance sheet and income statement:
Total cash: $24 billion
Quarterly expense rate: $3 billion
Even if Microsoft didn't sell a single additional product starting today, they could continue to pay all their people and hang around for an additional two years.
They have one of the best balance sheets in the industry and will definitely take advantage of it (e.g. a cool $500 million is slated for X-box advertising).
-Sommelier
Well, per that link, he said that he thought that the odds were only 20% that there would be a disruption. Sounds pretty accurate.
Randall.
Property law should use #'EQ, not #'EQUAL.
A monoploy that could be brought down by other people simply buying other available products. ROTFL
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Oh sure. The largest software company in the world is going to go belly-up over a course of 6 months. This doesn't make sense from so many angles, I don't even know where to start. ESR is old and confused. He is in no way in touch with computing today. He should either shut up, or people like Slashdot should jsut stop reporting the ridiculous things that he says.
Microsoft's dominance of the desktop has reached such a critical point where it's hard to expect the entire world to change. Predicting that [one | some] free operating system(s) will cause Windows to lose it's majority (a prerequsite for Microsoft losing it's monopoly) in six months is a bit like predicting that the US will convert to metric in six months.
Sure, we use base 10 for everything, so one could argue that the US will switch to metrics shortly because it makes sense. But we (as a nation) are so comfortable with the english system, as we are with the Windows platform, that change will be slow and painful. ESR says that the fact that PCs are getting cheaper is a good indicator that PC manufacturers will get fed up, but this I doubt.
I say this because PCs have always gotten cheaper, and hardware is getting cheaper as well. Given how most people see windows as indispensible, they have no objection to paying for a license. If the so-called "MS Tax" ends up being a much larger percentage of the total cost of the computer, I think the logical response from Microsoft would be to lower their prices; not to keep charging an amount people won't pay until they die.
Microsoft keeps up with things; they aren't about to lose their monopoly due to changes that were expected (cheaper, smaller, faster) but will rather require many more unexpected events to appear on the horizon: but note, MS has their radar up.
-bugg
"God is Dead." --Nietzche
"Nietzche is Dead." --God
ESR is a one-trick pony, desperate to hold on to his "status" by publishing diatribes which are merely "n+1" from his previous screeds. He needs to get out of the way. The community doesn't need him anymore.
As Suck said in their brilliant parody of Slashdot, "RMS, GNU, ESR: FOAD".
I think it would be interesting to find out if the reality distortion fields eminated by ESR and Steve Jobs are scientifically measureable and, if so, whose is stronger.
My gut feeling is that two new subatomic particles will be discovered as a result of any such study. I propose they be named oblivious and untruth.
The W3C is still in charge, but it keeps the vision of the original www. Don't forget that webpages weren't ment to look the same on any platform but they were ment to show the relevant information on any platform. Cascading Style Sheets will help in future, but don't count on it in a near future.
I understand that the marketing types that work for your clients (and mine too by the way) want their corporate identity perfectly represented on the web. They see flash and say "wow", but the web is not about flash it is about content. The best way is to explain this and try to find appropriate tradeoffs.
Oh, by the way...did you ever had to explain why the color of the company logo looked different on my monitor than on their monitor just because I had set my brightness quite low. Ehm, not easy, because they realised that on no computer their logo would look the same... sad, isn't it?
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
It wholly depends on your vision of "Personal", if it is like mine: lightweight, easy to install, handy, complete. On my quest for small GUI-enabled Linux Distro's I stumbeled over Peanut Linux and I think it rocks. Since it is downloadable easily over slow connections it fitted perfectly to my needs. Yes, it comes with sendmail, a websever and a telnetserver, which I immediately kicked out of inetd. The installation is a bit awkward at first but doable if not a complete moron (read: I just a moderate moron).
I think it will be this kind of distributions that have a chance to move towards the desktop.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Isn't that the same guy who showed up at the Microsoft Refund Day dressed up as a Jedi Knight?
Je ne parle pas francais.
Hello, I'm Cindy Clawhammer, applying for a Sr. Programmer position.
Yes, please be seated. I see you have worked at Microsoft before the collapse.
Yes, I worked on several projects, including the widgets that pop up and ask if you'd like to sign up for MSN.
I see, and why did you leave?
It was the principle of the thing, they were just mindless evil drones, trying to ruin all that was good in the world. It was all so horrible...
There, there! The job is yours, welcome to the company, Comrade. I trust a corner office, company BMW and your own parking spot will be satisfactory.
Thank you!
Please ask Ms Phelps to send in the next person.
Hello, I'm Jack Schmidt, here for a Sr. Programmer position.
Yes, please have a seat. So you were at Microsoft, also, before the collapse and all the cuts?
Yes, right up to the bitter end. We had a good product and I did everything I could to help, but it wasn't enough.
I see... well, nice meeting you, please ask Ms Phelps to send in the next candidate.
Uh, that's it?
Yes. We prefer people with a conscience.
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Why dont they just lower prices? If they are abusing their monopoly, dropping their prices should be a piece of cake.
They're coming to take me away! Ha! Ha!
They're coming to take me away!
1,000,007 IT Directors across the country marched on the Washington Mall today to renounce their MCSE titles. Chants for "We need a GNU deal" were heard. One marcher from Armonk, NY stated he might even spend a few bucks next year in support of the revolution. But seriously, IMHO M$ will exist 6/12/144 months from now. Remeber they have the cash and they are very sharp business folk. Still can't wait for M$ Linux 1.0 :Q
is Dale Bozzio really missing?
This won't be the reason for which Microsoft will collapse. Users one day (farther than 6 months) will be able to decide to put Windows or Linux (and this will be comparable to Windows in desktop and much stable). Users will choose Linux because it's free.
--
To visit or not to visit, that is the real question: findusclub.com
The opinions in this comment are subject to GPL, you can copy, modify and redistribute freely (as in speech).
And remember what he said about Y2K?
I admire and like Eric--he's an uber-hacker--but I think in his zeal to sell "Open Source", he's become too confident in his theories.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
ESR looks like a fuckin' hilbilly out of some hellhole such as Ark-fucking-ansas?
I'm too sexy for you.
fucking your mother
"Oblivion is just a click away." -Aazz
Sure, we use base 10 for everything, so one could argue that the US will switch to metrics shortly because it makes sense. But we (as a nation) are so comfortable with the english system, as we are with the Windows platform, that change will be slow and painful. ESR says that the fact that PCs are getting cheaper is a good indicator that PC manufacturers will get fed up, but this I doubt.
It's not "the english system" it's "Imperial"... Except with the usual simplifications introduced by Americans, it's not even the same imperial measurement system as used in the UK...
An American pint is 16 fluid ounces. A British pint is 20 fluid ounces.
Not everyone using Slashdot is American... So please try not to refer to us and we when you mean
US citizens by birth.
Zwack
-- Under/Overrated is meta-moderation, and therefore is Redundant.
Think of all those poor M$ users, if M$ collapses that is :)
'I sense much NT in you. NT leads to blue screen, blue screen leads to downtime, downtime leads to suffering.' -Uknown
I don't really know the guy. I talked with him briefly in San Jose this summer. I understand that people think he's arrogant and pretentious. However, don't forget that he's contributed a lot to open source and I seriously doubt linux would be where it is today without him. It would get there eventually, but not today.
NOW, a lot of what ESR said doesn't really make much sense to me, especially in reference to Microsoft, etc. While that comment about them going out of business was one small aspect of the article, ti seems kinda off kilter. First of all, MS has moved far beyond just software. Their OEM partnerships are not what make it a multi-multi billion dollar company. Additionally, MS is one of the largest "service" providers in the tech business (I had to put service in quotes because I don't really see MS software as a service, more like a DIS-service...) I would make the humble prediction that MS is going to move even more to the service side of the industry, with their software as a single component of that. Who would your boss rather buy that email server from, the company that wrote it or some third party Microsoft certified technician? There's huge business in that, and they're already exploiting it.
Something that did kind of annoy me about that article was how the interviewer seemed to pander to ESR. As a journalism student, I've learned not to let the subject take control of the interview. I also know that this is incredibly difficult sometimes, especially dealing with smart people and people who think a lot of themselves, but the whole thing seemed kind of in praise of Raymond and not much else.
My other computer is your Windows box
...... and stop talking.
Now.
Your wrong, sound is defined by vibrational waves created in the air, so even if no one is around to hear it, it does make a sound. Now if the forest where in a vacuum...
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
come on guys.. I love Linux like you all do...but lets be realistic. Linux is great for us, and we know how to work around all the little problems that are tossed onto us because we don't use a MS friendly OS, but just imagine trying to teach John Q. Public how to use Linux. It isn't going to happen. People don't know the difference between and OS and a computer. If they buy a dell and it comes decked out with RH 7.0 and they buy some unsupported piece of hardware and have to recompile their kernel to support it......well, you see where I am going. It isn't going to happen. Linux just isn't ready for the desktop.
http://www.1053.org -=We use big words=-
However, whatever it says, there is no way Microsoft could collapse in six months. The make more money from Office and their other ventures than the OEM. I highly suggest this read
http://www.netaction.org/msoft/world/MSWord2World. html
To see just how far reaching Microsoft really is... their investments include everything from Dreamworks to BET to Apple.
check it out.
Contrary to popular belief, I don't actually make my website for other people to look at.
So perhaps the killer app. is Gnu? That should make RMS happy.
A loss of the OS marketshare by Microsoft would cause a mass conversion to Macintosh, since Apple practically invented Windows anyways. We must remember that the appeal of Windows for the average user is the simplicity and ease of use. Until linux can match the user-friendlyness of Windows and MacOS, it won't be able to attract enough users to make up for Microsoft's loss. Teens just want to play mp3s; Grandma's just want to sell crafts on ebay. In today's world, not only the nerd owns a computer...