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Violence's Niche In Cartoons
madro writes: "An article in the New York Times (registration req'd) discusses the emergence and influence of anime throughout recent 'children's' programming. Stuff goes way beyond the Power Rangers stuff that some parents groups protested long ago, but people don't seem to mind so much now. Funniest bit? A programming exec anticipates the end of anime thusly: 'But then it gets to the point where even the nerd gets into it, and then the cool kids have to move on to something else.'" Apparently the author watched the chimpokomon episode of South Park to get his conclusion *grin*. Actually the article is pretty funny, but I doubt that was the author's intention.
I don't know about everyone, but I see both the writer and the brilliant exec he quotes at the end as having a few things backwards.
1) The Pokemon anime was not inspired by Nintendo's videogame. I think it was the other way around.
2) Yes, anime such as DBZ is violent, but US companies full of suits who never researched or even WATCHED any anime before fail to realize that shows like DBZ are on as 'Prime Time' events in Japan. The fact that some shows are obviously not meant for kids is apparently lost in the radiance of good market value.
3) As an avid watcher of anime for half my life, I'd have to say that anime is not something the 'cool kids' flock around. Most anime was adopted and avidly watched first by the 'nerds' as they're called in the article. Vampire Hunter D was released in the late 80s to a small number of theatres. I didn't see all the 'cool kids' flocking to it. In this case I think the 'nerds' blazed the trail. Maybe some of them should become programming execs for Fox and CN? Then perhaps anime that's truly for kids will be on those networks.
--Kylus
--Kylus
Idiot-proof something, and Life will build a better Idiot.
The author lost all credibility when he tried to portray Cardcaptors (the americanized version of Card Captor Sakura) as extremely violent and targeted at young boys. This show is about as violent as an episode of CareBears. It was also created for young girls. The cuteness factor alone should make pretty clear, along with the girl-power storyline, except, apparently, to writers for the NYT.
But the fact is (re: revenge of the nerds), geeks are now driving the cutting edge of media culture. Japanimation was never meant for children anyway. It has always been targeted to the 20 years+ audience with disposable income.
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Yes, it's been done for a while. But most of us grew up with Looney Toons. Sure, it's violence, but it's blatantly obvious that it's FUNNY violence. Not many of us can easily get our hands on an anvil, or 482 sticks of dynamite, or any of the various implements used in these classic 'toons. So even the dullest of young minds can (usually) sort out that this isn't something to try at home -- if for no other reason than it'd be impossible.
Many anime cartoons are more realistic -- at least as realistic as any of these things can be, at least. There are sci-fi or fantasy elements, but the characters are clearly human. Witness Gene Starwind (the guy from "Outlaw Star") carrying something that looks suspiciously like a sawed-off shotgun, or Son Gohan wielding nothing but a broken arm and gallons of chi energy.
Anthropomorphizing the violence doesn't make it go away, though. Surely, at some point, someone's tried falling off a cliff with nothing but an umbrella for protection...
Where is all this going, then? Right where it should: back to the parents.
It doesn't matter how busy your job is, nor how many sadistic demands your bosses place on your time. You will make time for your kids. Maybe sit down with 'em, watch a few of their favorite shows. Not only are they occasionally more entertaining than this dope from the New York Times gives them credit for, but you'll know what you're up against as a parent.
And if you can't make time for this, you might need to give your life priorities a serious re-think.
It credits Jon Mandel, the guy who spouted this quote, as "a longtime observer of children's television trends".
I hope that's not his job description, for his company's sake, because he's really dropped the ball on this one. Geeky kids were the earliest watchers of anime. I was watching Starblazers(Space Cruiser Yamato), Danguard Ace, and Gaiking 20 years ago. Sheesh.
Sorry dude, but people other than you DO understand Japanese, and get the joke.
That is such an inside joke, no pun intended, that not that many people would get it unless brought to their attention.
... for a culture that prided itself on being the successor to the Roman Empire, America sure has a problem with the morals and values of said culture. Either you go whole hog or go hungry, eh. Don't run from sex or violence! Phaloi on every streetcorner! Hell, just let the people vote themselves bread and cirucuses! In forty years, the American Empire will have fallen, and the Canadian and Mexican barbarians will overrun the land. Yaay! Anarchy, baby!
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
If anyone thinks cartoon violence is something new, I have two words for you: DUCK SEASON!
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Now, consider anime; while it's expensively made in Japan, it's rather cheap to get the rights.
Compared to the production costs, yes. Then it has to be dubbed, or sub-titled and re-produced in some cases, which also adds to the cost.
Also, the more popular anime gets, the more expensive those licenses are going to become.
Of course, with the average corporate "executive's" mentality, if there isn't a 10,000 to 1 ROI, then its "not viable." If they want to complain about the production costs of a quality show (like most anime), and wow do they want to complain... I would reply with the following item of business wisdom:
You get what you pay for.
nobody with any self-respect watches the same TV show as middle schoolers.
That's funny, I'd say that nobody with any self-respect determines what is or isn't a "lame" TV show by examining the viewing habits of middle schoolers (or CEOs, or single mothers, or anime characters for that matter). Refusing to do something because it's popular is just as weak a show of character and individuality as doing something because it's popular. Why do you think that companies sell "N*Suck" t-shirts?
In my oppinion Barney is a closet petifile. I mean why is he going around touching little kids all the time and hugging then. One of my friends little sisters had a video game on sega of barney walking around searching for little kids and hugging them. If any thing were is the moral that they are suppose to learn. They don't learn how to share cause its a one player video game. and why arn't people worried about a purle dino walking around? I think a normal one would scare me just as much. but a bright purple thats just crazy.
Any how your reply didn't make much sense. cause I was any ways talking about anime not barney and I dunno why that would make people point and laugh at there peers. cause I was saying that some of the hard core anime wasn't ment for young people(2-10 mainly). it was ment for older people.
What qualifies as an "early exposure?"
You know that saying, how you always kill the one you love? Well, it works both ways.
Actually, Love Hina does have a *amazingly* high violence level, but it's all directed at one character, and he's (apparently) slightly more indestructible than Wile E. Coyote. ;)
But apart from that (slight nitpick), I agree. The only anime that seems to appear on US television (and by default, here in my small nation :), are the shows that focus on action, to the exclusion of practically everything else. (and to make sure, they edit out anything that may distract the audience. ...like the Plot. ;P)
I doubt something like Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou would get air-time on Western TV (Except possibly in France :), because it's *all* character driven. No giant robots/glowing people/insanely cute critters. Just people talking, and not listening to each other. :)
Do you know what the network censor most in anime? Sex and not violentence. Anyway all anime that is show on cable or networks are all censored. Which is bad because you really have to see the uncensored version of to truelly enjoy it. Most anime that are showing on tv/cable networks are old some of them where created in the mid 80's like DBZ. You might want to try http://icomic.com for more information about anime.
Not only do the US dubs edit to increase what amounts to the "car chase per minute" ratio, they delete all "adult" material, including, but not limited to nudity, swearing, "graphic" (as opposed to what? "Textual?") violence, sexual references, and the like. Some scenes are removed in order to fit an episode or movie into a given time slot. The Cartoon Network is notorious for such censorship, and may in fact be responsible for the prevelant American view of anime as a "kiddy genre" as opposed to a style of filmmaking. They are virtually the only network which shows anime in America, and by showing only child- and teen-oriented anime, and hacking it into material "appropriate" for the six-year-old demographic, they create a biased impression.
You know that saying, how you always kill the one you love? Well, it works both ways.
I find it highly ironic Nickelodeon is suddenly so self-righteously critical of anime (as the article mentions) when the network was built with such great shows as Noozles, Maya the Bee, and Mysterious Cities of Gold.
Tell me what makes you so afraid
Of all those people you say you hate
Actually, this trend was started by nerds. The mainstreamers just got involved when anime showed up on Cartoon Network. I think stuff like pokemon will disapear, because little kids change their mind very quickly, but I don't think that anime will lose popularity all that quickly.
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I can positively say that the age group watching pokemon haven't really developed into the "cool" and the "nerds" yet. So I don't know why this guy even said that once the cool kids like it, the nerds like because the pokemon age group doesn't have nerds or the cool kids. Also, FOX completely ruined Esca Flone because they the first episode due to it being to "slow". What I liked, was that on Saturday mornings Sci-Fi would show an anime movie, like A-ko, tank police, eye or mars, robot carnival, akira, and dozens of other great anime. But now it's gone. :(
Live life to the fullest. It's not that life is short, but that you are dead for so long.
I take it that no one is aware of the fact that the japanese word "chinpoko" (spelling notwithstanding) is a children's slang term for penis? That alone makes the episode vastly more amusing...
Sorry, but I'm right. I live in Japan, I'm talking to Japanese, I watch TV. I mentioned the open-mindedness to exceptions; Ghibli anime are the most widely accepted. The rest is for kids and otaku. Very few "normal" Japanese adults watch anime regularly.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
It also became somewhat fashionable to dislike Microsoft - and I really hate people bitching about Microsoft who don't even understand the major dynamics of the effect they had on teh industry (not that I claim to be a god of the tech world or anything) - so much that I would see people have very badly configured computers (Macs or PCs) running, for example, IE, and if it crashed, they would blaim MS, and not themselves first for not configgin the system properly for Trojans, etc., Viruses.
It's like people refuse to take responsibility for being fucking lazy. So now linux has become cool, it's lost it's edge, etc., but it doesn't matter, as I have totally lost the fucking point of my reply.
PS - this is in no way directed at the poster, I am just ina bad mood and the the comment about "Linux is cool because nobody uses it" is exactly right. Same with everything in life.
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
one of my high school teachers force fed Braveheart to his 3 year-old son. I think that's just wrong.
I didn't force-feed Braveheart to my children, I actually had to turn it OFF so that I could scoot them out of the room. They WANTED to watch it. What they did see they thought was 'cool'.
Of course, one of my oldest's favorite movies (when he was 3-4, he's a whole 6 now) was 'Demolition Man'.
So, for the most part we've just let the kids watch what we were watching. If it gets to the point where people are getting hacked up graphically on-screen, we tend to cover eyes or distract so that they aren't having nightmares about the imagery, but we're not going to sheild them from the world.
MY parents didn't want me to watch 'Porky's' when I was about 12. A bit of sexual innuendo there but nothing horrible - not at all like today's fare.
The thing that bothers me are the parents who force-feed their kids G-rated stuff until they're old enough to drive. The only movies in the house are by Disney or have a Purple Dinosaur prominently featured. Ugh, talk about coddling.
der dee der.
I agree that anime is only a medium, and comes in many forms. Unfortunately, its new acceptance has come only in the form of faddish children's programming. And given the quality of the dubs and most of the series that are shown here, I don't really blame most people for that misconception. Most of the anime on TV is really terrible, or is made that way by the horrible American voice actors.
If anime had truly come into acceptance here, I think we would have seen a better turnout at Princess Mononoke during its short-lived theatrical release here in the US. I almost would rather have had people thought all I watched was animated porn than this tripe that is Americanized, mainstream anime. I won't even get started on the violence on TV issue... I hate people. Especially Americans.
P.S. - I am an American. I suck too.
You mean E.Y.E.S. of Mars and Escaflowne, right? :)
BTW, I miss saturday anime too... why don't they bring it back?
Quoth the zombie, braaaaaaaains
Sometimes both at the same time
To me they seem to say that violance on T.V. is generated from anime. I don't think so buddy. There was violence in batman way before there was anime on the tele. I remember batman throughing people through buildings and such while leaving outhers for dead. Not all were dead. Acualy most wern't but some were.
To compare it to old school saterday morning type shows you can't because save by the bell is a school show. not to many things like that happend for violence except when slater decideds that he wants to put some nerd in a head lock and give him a noogy. But there was violence. I meant take tails from the cript,not much for violence but don't you think that a dead corpse talking to people telling stories that are "a real scream huhahahaha" isn't going to scare a little kid. Or the original batman throughing the Joker out a window isn't violence. No my friends as I see it the only thing anime did was give people like this joker some one to blame for all the violence on tv.
also I would like to remind you of shows like tom and jerry. or bugs bunny were they drop anviles on there heads. so there might now have been blood. but so what that only says that nothing will happen if you have an avile dropped on you. or be punched in the face by a chicken.
there is nothing more wrong with buggs bunny and the original batman/superman than there is with dragon ball z and other type shows except that dragon ball z has more of a story than I'll just fly at the guy and hope that he falls over I don't care if I don't know if hes evil.
I recall that before cell became most powerful one of the androids that was suppose to be evil that batman or super man would have destroid in a second was spared by one of the good guys. why?? because he saw that there was good in the robot and did want it dead. is that bad morals?? I'll leave you with that
These people must be speaking a different language then I do. when I think of anime, I think fo Ranma 1\2 (which is violent, I guess) and Maisson Ikkokku (which definitly isn't), not DragonballZ or Pokemon. I think of anime\manga as being a form of literarture, not as a form of entertainment. But that is just because I am a member of the non-television owning cultural 31337 :-)
Of course, by now, almost all cartoons are done in Anime fashion, so it is kind of silly to speak as anime as just one thing. And to say it is dying because one commercialized aspect of it is dying is like those people who said the internet was dying when the e-commerce boom went away.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
yeah really, you know how long there have been ads in wired for ghost in the shell?
you think lots of "cool kids" pour over the pages of wired and have for years?
wired is another of those things actually, that used to be far cooler when it catered more to real nerds and people with far left political ideas. But now it's owned by conde nast, who has pruned all the valuable (read: radical left) political content, and it's bland and useless now.
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Why is this series so popular? I've been completely unable to enjoy one second of any of the episodes I've watched. I mean, formulaic plot, uninteresting characters, breathless superlatives... and yet people love it. Could someone who does try to explain?
You know that saying, how you always kill the one you love? Well, it works both ways.
Couldn't be more wrong. As I remember it, the nerds usually find these shows first, and get tired of them when all their cool peers 'discover' it for themselves. What happens is the collective attention span of all the kids shifts, and latches onto whatever (lucky) new experimental show the networks test. Such as is with pokemon, and whatever is to come.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
You make a decent point in this post, that you can't judge a book just by its cover. However, your "medium, not a message" thing is a bit off-base. Read "Mythologies" by Roland Barthes. The whole point of this book (and other books on media) is that the media IS the message. They are one in the same and are inseperable. Be careful how lightly you use that conclusion.
South Park is satire. Period. If you're missing the fact that it's a parody of bigotry, Pokemon, stereotypical Midwesterners and the like, you probably didn't pay much attention.
You know that saying, how you always kill the one you love? Well, it works both ways.
My parents only let me watch bugs bunny since other stuff was too "violent." I've been desensitized to mallets and dynomite. In movies I laugh at peoples misfortune. However if you watch those cartoons now, there is lots of history and important analogies buried in there that you never knew about the first time you watched.
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It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.
Why are you posting here?!?!
If everyone wrote a letter to the New York Times, maybe, JUST maybe, we could get rid of this misinformation.
But then it gets to the point where even the nerd gets into it, and then the cool kids have to move on to something else
Wait... when did the "cool" kids get into anime. Where I'm from anime has always been a art form for the nerds, and the terminally "uncool".
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It's not really funny, unless someone doesn't get it
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It's not really funny, unless someone doesn't get it
I'm pretty sure there's already a private mirror for the faculty.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Weren't GI Joe, Thundercats, Voltron, Rainbow Brite, and tons others animated in Japan? Cats with whips, giant killer robots, Rainbow Brite?!? I can hardly see how todays world of Pokemon and others is any differant then the 80's Asian invasion of excellent cartoons.
Mine wasn't really just a (sad) joke. I remember there has been a couple of years ago some debate whether some fairy tales were well-suited for children, or whether they should be banned in children schools.
You can see the same old tale being told endless times here and in other places: banning something is oh so much easier than trying to understand it. It is easier to forbid kids to watch anime or some other show (or cause a ruckus so that TV networks don't air them anymore) than talk to the kids and discuss with them what they have said, where the heroes erred and where they didn't and so forth.
Actually, the issue most Americans who take issue with such things are upset about in Ranma 1/2 is the whole sex-change deal.
You know that saying, how you always kill the one you love? Well, it works both ways.
That's funny, in my understanding anime was a fringe thing to begin with, and is just becoming popular now ... more like "it gets to the point where even the cool kids get are it, and then the nerds have to move on to something else."
Forager
student of animation and the fine arts
Heh, I just posted on this without even seeing your comment. "chinpoko" is a slang term for penis, kind of like pee pee or whatever.
First off, most of the screenshots showing "graphic" violence are showing somebody getting punched. Now if say Looney Toons and dropping anvils on characters all the time isn't graphic, then I don't know what is.
My main point here is that there is nothing to fear as long as the right message is sent. The cruel acts of violence always occur on behalf of the bad guys. You don't see the hero of Pokemon bashing people indiscriminately and stealing. Violence has always occured in cartoons and will do so- as long as the evil guys are defeated and the heroes act only in self defense, parents should not worry. Worry more about the good old Tom and Jerry where both cat and mouse are invincible to any violence. It's not to say that all violence is good, but that it cannot all be objected to so easily on the basis of how severe it is.
But we never hear about the effects of sex in the media. Whenever some kid goes out and kills somebody, we hear about how the media supposedly affected them. But when someone rapes another person or has kids when they are like 13 years old, we never hear about the effect of sex in the media on them.
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It's amazing how wrong this article manages to be. Even discounting minor quibbles (calling anime a genre) there are more factual misstatements than I even want to count. Let's see...
Current televised children's anime is more violent than Road Runner and Tom & Jerry? I don't see Pikachu dropping anvils on Team Rocket, or blowing anyone up with barrels of TNT, or going after a bunny rabbit with a shotgun, all of which were regular occurences (and more linked to the real world than Pikachu's electric bolts or whatever) on Looney Tunes.
They imply that Batman Jr. kills someone by strangling him with a pole. I didn't see that episode, but I really doubt that the guy was meant to be dead rather than unconscious. (And personally, I don't see any anime influence on Bruce Timm's design/animation style that Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond are based on.)
They hold up "Saved By The Bell" and "Goosebumps" as being benign. If the way Screech's "friends" treated him on SBtB is supposed to be a "benign" behavioral model, well, that would explain a lot of that Hellmouth stuff... Goosebumps was a friggin horror show, fer cryin out loud! Mild, but still involving zombies and vampires and other things that give kids the heebie-jeebies. Not that there's anything wrong with heebie-jeebies, but they're making Goosebumps sound like Winnie the Pooh, and later on they make it sound as if adult-oriented anime "with sex and violence" is being shown on Fox on Saturday mornings.
The "won't somebody think of the children!" folks seem to have calmed down a little and realized that "Not all violence is equal, and not all fighting is equal [...] Who are the heroes? Is aggressive behavior being re-enforced? [sic]" Two paragraphs later, a dean emeritus (read: geezer) explains that parents aren't being more reasonable, they're just "desensitized."
Worst Article Ever.
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The problem I have with the whole issue is how we're inevitably drawn to the conclusion that anything animated is intended for kids.
In Japan, animation is a medium, not a genre. Within that medium you can find shows intended for young children, tweens, teens, young adults, and full adults. But as soon as you talk about animation here, it's always about kids.
Disney's grip (and the subsequent box-office pressure that forces all other North American animation studios to conform to the Disney standards) has all but spoiled a wonderful medium for anyone who's over 13.
What makes animation so special and important to me is consistancy. Even the best special effects in movies tend to look like special effects. The T-Rex in Jurassic Park looked GREAT, but you could still tell it wasn't REAL. You see a real person and a CG monster, and you feel somehow out of place. Animation, however, doesn't have that. Once you accept the style, suspend your disbelief, you can get away with anything, and it has a more profound effect on the imagination that way.
I suppose my favorite case in point is my childhood exposure to Robotech (aka Macross). The animation blew (but then, so did Transformers and G.I. Joe, which were my other after-school alternatives), but it still captured my imagination like nothing else. Add to that a rich ongoing storyline (compared to said shows), dealing with serious issues like love and death, not giving easy answers to (or avoiding) those issues and you have the show which, more than any other, shaped my childhood.
The problem comes when cartoons deal with violence in such a way that there are no apparent consequences. When everyone ejects at the last minute before a plane crashes, where thousands of bullets are fired and nobody gets hurt, where bad guys and good guys are cardboard cut-outs meant to sell action figures than to be related to, THEN you have a problem.
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In my reletively short existence iv com eto the conclusion that when something gets popular its integrity diminishes.
I'm sure we'll be happy to move in and pick up the pieces :)
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I dunno But it seems more and more like the good old comics are focused towards teen agers and adults. When Cartoon comes on at 10:00 to 11:00 I don't think you should expect to see man 3-9 year olds wanting to watch it. Also shows like dragon ball z have a story line to it that MOST people under the age of 5 arn't going to understand and MOST people under the age of 13 arn't going to bother watch. The only place I know that it comes on for a saterday morining cartoon is in Japan for all I know, and thats there problem. "I" think as long as it stays on late night television it should be able to stop younger people who do watch the show not watch the show. Because for the most part parents are home and should be able to controll what there children watch. To thouse who ARE home and let them watch and complain its too violent should block the chanel if they CAN(not all televions do let you). or try something else besides complain. I "think" most people are aware of that and that is why there arn't that many complaints as before with power rangers and shows that come on after school with mild violence like digi mon (never watched it) and poke mon (I don't think poke mon is that violent maybe kids will fight with animal dolls instead of eachother)
One example...
You know that saying, how you always kill the one you love? Well, it works both ways.
As a kid, I watched pretty much every contemporary cartoon. You know, GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, Voltron, Tom & Jerry, etc.
Pretty much every cartoon I every watched was violent, but I was taught at a young age to realize the difference between reality and cartoons. So, I never tried to iron my brothers tounge, blow up my brother, etc. I just knew that you didn't do stuff like that.
I think some parents today try to cop-out of responsibility for their kids and they don't teach them the simple lessons that they need. Like for instance "Cartoons and TV is not real".
Teach that one lesson, and stop blaming TV and media for the problems of the world, and we will be a better society for it.
Brian
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I mean, Apocalymon was from the end of the first season of Digimon, yet we're already a decent ways into the second season. And he says the guy appeared in a "recent episode." Pfft.
Um.. Not that I watch Digimon regularly or anything.
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Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
Yay, yay. I loved Evangelion. Myn friend went to Japan on an internship and brought home grainy and badly fan-dubbed vhs cassettes, each an episode long, and we sat there and watched the whole thing one evening.
I was extremely snotty about any hard science fiction, in print or on the screen, that incorporated religious, mystical or apocalyptic themes until I saw Evangelion.
Anime cartoons (even the silliest ones!) have an element of cultural shock and camp, which attracts many viewers. And the plot lines on most everything, excepting Pokemon and its family of ripoffs, is excellent. Dragon Ball Z will carry on a quest or a plot line for weeks on end, promoting much more attention span then the half-hour, encapsulated, interchangeable episodes of many modern cartoons.
Anime seems to me to have a sensibility that is distinctly non-American, and a fascination for the details of everyday life that can sometimes make its characters surprisingly realistic. Evangelion, for example, sometimes focuses on the sibling rivalry among children who were recruited, trained and in one case actually bred for the job of fending off alien Angels.
Goat sex free since 2001
you forgot Cool Devices
This article seems to insinuate that "anime" is by nature a violent "genre". This couldn't be farther from the truth. Anime is simply a style of drawing, not a genre.
In Japan, there are a number of shows which have no violence at all, but here would still be called "anime". Two examples that come to mind are Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou and Love Hina. While there are a few obviously comical violent moments in both of these shows... they're not "fight-oriented" at all. Both shows are (in very different ways), about growing up and dealing with things. This is the kind of stuff kids need to see.
I blame the north-american networks for bringing over only fight-oriented shows, and none of the anime which deals with social issues in a social manner. Perhaps if kids were shown a balanced TV diet, things would be better here.
Anyways, this article was very narrow in it's point of view, and the authour ovbiously doesn't know much about the shows in Japan, only what he sees when he turns on his boob tube.
"Free beer tends to lead to free speech"
That's exactly right. Me and a friend were discussing this yesterday. People want whatever is hard to get. Earlier in history it was "in" to be fat because food was hard to obtain, now it is the complete opposite. Just like all the kids at my highschool will pay $45 for a shirt with the faded words "Abercrombrie" on it. It's not that the shirt is better than the $10 punk shirts I wear, but because the Abercrombrie one is harder to obtain. People don't want something that just anyone can get. Once something is easy to get, like scooters, anime, or Linux, no one wants it because it's become mundane.
-antipop
And they say Pokemon is violent. Compare it with some anime thats *actually* violent and bloody, and it indeed is a kids show. Now wait until someone discovers anime gets about 1000 times naughtier than pokemon: hentai. Hmm lets see, borderline pedophilia, rape, you get the picture. I've seen quite a bit of hentai, that if it was real pictures, not only would be shocking to the majority of people, but would also be illigal. Now just wait until some family organization decides to somehow connect pokemon to that. Yah, and as for that last line "But then it gets to the point where even the nerd gets into it, and then the cool kids have to move on to something else." It is the other way around. Cool kids arent the ones who are the first people onto to something "new." Yes, they may be the first people on your block or in your school to, but in the whole world they sure as hell aint. Just sheep. And god i hate fads. And that is what Pokemon is.
I can see the point, but I don't totally agree. The people I know that use Linux (including myself) don't do so because it's "cool", they use it for development sake and because it's easier to cutomize and more customizable than Windows or MacOS. And as far as blaiming MS goes, MS does make buggy products. I'm not saying that everything on Linux is bug-free because it's not. But becasue Windows is the dominant OS on home PCs, MS doesn't have to worry about competition as much so if they release a buggy product, they don't have to worry about people switching to another OS. For most people it's easier to wait for a bug fix. In my opinion, Linux isn't becoming popular because it's the "cool" thing to do, it's becoming popular because it's a good OS.
Slackware
editor@nyt.com
I haven't verified that this address is functional, but I believe it to be correct.
The nerds are gonna stop liking anime long before those kids find out that we've moved onto something much better and 'cooler'.
you mean just like how us nerds stopped liking computers because everyone else started using them?
"Ask me about Loom"
theres a lovely writeup about that site here
...is even scarier than Teletubbies.
When I was a kid, french television brought a lot of Anime, (I didn't say "quality anime"). I must admit that I was addicted to it. Some shows were pretty violent...wel, I think some people might consider them violent, I still find them quite benign. I think the most violent show they broadcast was "Ken le survivant" (Don't ask the English or Japanese name, I have no clue) I don't remember that it was very long on air.
Well, I fondly remember those times: I was inclinde to like the more humour-oriented Anime, but that's probably just me. I'm sure that many french readers of my age will recall those times with a smile, because last time I was able to watch french TV at "children-watching hours", I had to notice that there is barely any Anime left.
I think I'll just have to store the "good 'ol times" in my memory...or buy the series in DVD.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Agreed. Violence is necessary to our society. Ancient Romans had it (gladiator games) and we have it now in the form of boxing, football, etc. It feeds directly to harmartia that people need to feel since our lives in a heavily regulated society is extremly banal. Sometimes, the individual needs to scream, and violence allows for that. What people need to realize is that violence and the triumph of the hero is a reflection of societies triumph over the "evil" values. Violence is merely the manifestation of values, not the desensitization of the individual.
Who liked Dragon Ball Z first? The nerds did.
Now a lot of people (including some pretty cool kids) watch the show often. These things are all very underground, and since thats where the nerds and outcasts are, they pick up on them first, and eventually it moves to the mainstream, where the cool kids are. The nerds then have to find something else to like, or else they're grouped in as followers, or wannabe popular/hip kids.
Thats the way it is.
Rock 'n Roll, Not Pop 'n Soul
Rock 'n Roll, Not Pop 'n Soul
carldrawings.dk3.com
Hmmm, so everything we do is a response to what we see in the media? Whatever happened to that "free will" I used to hear about? Do you think the fact that I read in the Bible about Lot fucking his teenage daughters (Genesis 19,33) will make me fuck my own daughters?
I've always thought it usually worked the other way. Anime certainly did, as was mention elsewhere in the thread. But also look at computers in general. Or techno or punk music. It seems to me that when it becomes popular, the people who pride themselves on being not cool move on to something else.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've been looking all over for Overfiend DVD's. What I'd like to get is all four movies, either seperate or as a boxed set, preferably with both dub and subtitles, and they must absolutely be uncensored. Looking at the myriad of reviews and different releases available, I am totally lost.
I have two workds for Warner Brothers and violence, "Beep Beep!"
-twitter, undeniably unopressed.
This is a fun series and very suitable for children with two considerations; there is usually one (and only one) brief instance of nudity in every OVA or movie, and some of the TV episodes. There is also considerable martial arts style fighting. However, the violence is cartoon in nature with bruises and bandages that disappear in the next scene.
(Note the implication that trivialised violence is better than violence with realistic consequences.)
Ask me if I've been required to disclose any crypto keys.
Little kids don't want to sit around with their parents and watch TV. They want to play with their friends. But when their friends aren't around and their parents are working they sometimes like to watch a TV program or two.
Hmm. you haven't watched Digimon have you?
It's not fascinating to someone who realizes that it's not television that causes violence, it's parents who refuse to take responsibility to raise there children properly. Obviously the Japanese have no problem with this, and America does. It annoys the hell out of me to see parents who can't control their children in public, while my own children (7 & 10) see this then ask me why the other kids are brats.
No, I don't spank them. I'm not against it, but I don't have to. No, I don't have strict religious beliefs. And no, I don't restrict then from watching "violent" cartoons. I simply am a father who refuses to take crap from his kids. It's a parent's job to raise their kids so they aren't needed anymore. You can't do that if you push the job onto someone else.
Ok I'll get off my soapbox now. Geez, I was never like this before /.
Naeser's Law:
DBZ has always sucked, though....
Why would you watch it to begin with?
--
Parents and media are using simple templates. Stereotypes.. that are correct in there own little world.. may have been true once but not anymore..
Cartoons are for kids... Japanise cartoons aka Anime have been for mature audences for a long long time...
The whole notion is "hand drawn art" is for kids is really not even remotely realistic. Even american animation isn't allways targetting kids.
Print comic strips.. hand drawn art.. aren't allways for kids eather. Early sereals were targetting adults.. Mary Worth is not for kids.
Anime is usually high quality art.. It's a simplifying addadtude that assumes Anime will be like Disney.
Let's move on.. if we want to swallow this template as meaning anything you must assume believe that live action is for adults... So you can discount power rangers as being to violent becouse it's not a kiddie show.. not anime.. not hand drawn art.. it's live action...
The assumption isn't carryed out.. live action can be for adults or kids. Hand drawn art is not granted this same fact...
Pokemon is not Dragon Ball Z... Power Rangers isn't The Terminator...
"But kids might see it"...
A far more sinister template is this short statment.... "Kids might see it"...
Before we start cutting blood and violence out of shows kids "MIGHT" see.. let's cut blood and violence out of stuff kids do see.. watch. lissen and read.. every day... the news...
The first fact is that this stuff isn't for kids second is you can't play moral police and not end up with a minstry of the truths...
The first premiss that really kicks this whole thing off is the idea that knowladge is dangerous.. that images and sounds can warp a person and make them evil..
Letting kids know what violence looks like turns them into psycopathic killers...
Maybe it's true for adults as well...
better protect them... ignorence is bliss...
Better start building that minstry of truths....
I don't actually exist.
Most people have noted that the anime trend began with 'nerds'. This is true, but they forget that it began with (physically =) adult, universtiy-aged nerds. Those nerds who would max out thier credit cards, and do things like spend $1000 cdn. on the KOR LD boxed set.
Whereas suit-boy is talking about grade school nerds.
I'm not saying he has a point or anything, but just pointing out a problem with most people's jerking knees.
--
I have, and you're right. I shouldn't apply my metaphor to Digimon, necessarily.
Shameless TUGHouse Plug
"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets? - Dick Cavett"
:)
You have no idea
Being an immigrant and coming from a different comic culture.. comedy differs from region to region.. I can tell you, that American (and Canadian) comedy is very much like the comedy that I see on local television.
The comedy on television is not reflective of the comedy in the real world, as some may want to argue. I think Kramer is not a public trend follower, but a trend-setter, when he yells, "giddyup!" And we've all heard ourselves or our friends yell that one.
That would be all.
Janimal
i hear harvey mudd is going to stop paying for power and spend the money on a local mirror of goatse.cx instead
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
There are plenty of stupid people in the world for whom the defining criteria of coolness is how popular somthing is, sadly. At the most stupidly benign level, these are the people who hat {linux, backstreet boys} because they're too popular. At the less benign levels, you get people beating the crap out of Jello Biafra for being too popular.
I agree, the best example I have was way back when when Magic cards were only popular with the nerds (i.e. me). Then, once the "cool" kids started playing, we moved on to bigger and better things.
"Free beer tends to lead to free speech"
Does that make the cool kids uncool or something? Ow. My head hurts.
"Free beer tends to lead to free speech"
Now, consider anime; while it's expensively made in Japan, it's rather cheap to get the rights. WB got Pokemon for practically a song, compared with how much they would have had to spend for a similar episode run. Even the stuff on Toonami isn't that expensive to license, and in the end, probably cheaper than a new seasons of Powerpuff Girls or the like. So if you're a network, the bottom line is going to be better if you license an existing program than it is to make a new one. Thus, the rise of anime in mainstream television.
Now you also have to recall the differences in standards that anime and American animation goes by; the FCC requires a bit more in terms of non-violence and such from American counterparts than from anime. And with television ratings, the networks can simply show these more violent shows and slap a TV-Y7 on it, satisfying the FCC and most parents. So all we're seeing is typical american fare being replaced by anime on a larger basis, but beyond that, nothing's really changed. American cartoons haven't changed in violence level, nor have anime shows.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
'On "Dragon Ball Z," ...Cell, an evil emperor, is approached by a cowering television news correspondent. He knocks the correspondent onto his back and then kicks him so hard that the man flies across a field head first into rocks, presumably dead.'-aforementioned article
First of all, he obviously watched clips of various anime shows brought to his attention. Cell is as much an emperor as I can fly and shoot Kamehameha waves. Also, if he had watched the entire episode(or more to really give it a fair chance) he would have realized that the reporter does not die, and is a little dazed. Jesus, people! When did reporting stop being about research and start simply preying on the fears of parents?
Secondly, Mr. Rutenburg(writer of the article) and the rest of the media does not realize the difference between child anime and teen/adult anime. He talks of Digimon, and Pokemon(bleh!) while comparing them to the likes of Ghost In The Shell and Akira! Shame on him for tainting the minds of unwitting parents who now believe that anime=evil. Shame on the media for targeting the more violent shows towards the children. I guess that since it's a cartoon, it's meant to be watched by children! What about Heavy Metal, or those dirty porno animes? should children watch that as well? Jesus H. Christ in a handbasket, Houston!
The article claims that anime shows appearing in the U.S. or mirroring the video games that many japanese companies produce. Hello?????!!!!! Anime was around long before the Nintendo 8-bit and especially before anything that was really advanced enough to mirror anime! I think someone has this relationship backwards.
And who is this other guy to foretell the future of anime? The nerds were into it first! It's just like when the punk scene stopped liking Blink182 because all the 'cool' kids are into them now. The nerds are gonna stop liking anime long before those kids find out that we've moved onto something much better and 'cooler'.
Personally, I think even Teletubbies is pretty awful - the one show I saw had the Teletubbies not actually leaving when it was time to go. If I have kids, that's the last thing I want - my kids thinking I'm playing when I say "It's time to go."
Think about Road Runner. Wile E. Coyote is victim of explosions, is trampled by rolling boulders, ran over by cars, and walks away from that. He tries to fly by means of caped costumes, and that plot fails because he catches fire not because flying with a caped costume is not that simple.
Think about Porky in the Bugs Bunny cartoons, when he goes around hunting and more often than not ends victim of his carabine and the worst he gets is a blackened face.
It is sure caricaturized violence, but still, if we admit that kids are so easily impressed (and I believe that they are not as much as we "grown-ups" think they are), then I find it just as likely for a kid to grow violent from watching Anime as it is for that same kid to try and fly wearing a cape, or he could be conned into a feeling of invulnerability from - say - guns ("I'll just get a blackened face"), or falls from high places, or just about anything else you see in those funny cartoons.
About being exposed to violence: think about the structure of most popular fairy tales. You'll find that there is plenty of violence and cruelty in those. Are we to conclude that fairy tales could transform kids in violent monsters?
In other words, there would be oh so much more to think and discuss about the matter than 99.99% of all journalists did, do or will ever think of doing. Also, in the end, the sanest thing coming to mind is that parents should really spend more time with their children, and talk to them.
"South Park - bigger longer and uncut" is (unsurprisingly) a very well-thought story about exactly these sort of things.
1) The Pokemon anime was not inspired by Nintendo's videogame. I think it was the other way around.
You're wrong. Pokemon was inspired by the video game. Granted, the cartoon was what really exploded in popularity, but the game still came first.
-Grant aka JimTheta---
My stupid web site
If Card Captors was the most violent anime on American TV today, then DBZ must be a fucking tea party. Then again it's CLAMP, the same motherfuckers who gave us X, or, "OMG! YOU KILLED... OH JUST ABOUT DAMN NEAR EVERYONE@!#&(!@&#_("
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
http://partners.nytimes.com/2001/01/28/business/28 TOON.html has the article without the registration
-
Tell me about it.
I still remember watching my first few Sailor Moon episodes at an anime showing. I thought it was crap compared to the other stuff (Totoro, BGC) that was played that night, but it wasn't horrible. Then I saw DIC's dub... *shudder*. The mutilation was horrible. I've sworn off broadcast anime since then. I don't even want to go near WB's CCS, as I quite enjoy the original.
As for recent anime, I've been fond of Furi Kuri lately (watched a few of the discs at an anime show. Ordered 2 discs from CD japan. Now I'm trying to solve the Region 2 problem
And I'm still looking for Ranma on DVD =)
--
Not only does "things become uncool when nerds like it" apply to television, it applies to pretty much everything in popular culture. Clothing, music, hobbies... It's part of having so-called "social classes", and there's not a whole lot anybody can do about it.
When Debian gets ported and I can modify the Amiga OS, it's over.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
These guys don't have any buisness being in the news industry, this isn't based on facts but oppinions, it is based on the oppinion of the author and he barely took time to do research on the subject. The fact that he dosn't know anything about the shows he is writing about shows that. In Batman Beyond he chokes a person unconcious, not dead, and yet they didn't even made a big deal about an eppisode where he was thought to kill someone. Anime will be around for a while because after the cool kids like it and find out the geeks started it they will move on but hopefully the geeks will stay on board, I know I will. Not all anime is Pokémon and people need to realize that, if you watch something like Ninja Scroll or Wicked City and think they are for the same audience that Pokémon is then you need your head examined.
-- Any comments seen here are not mine, but a mixture of alchohol and lack of sleep.
Did Nickelodeon "grow up", or did I?
Yes, the NYT article sucks yea verily, and the author obviously hasn't done much research. However, one of the distinguishing features of the New York Times is that they pride themselves on their journalistic integrity and thoroughness.
I suggest we point out the lack of thoroughness demonstrated by this particular writer, Jim Rutenberg, by dropping a letter to the editor.
Letters to the Editor
The New York Times
229 West 43rd Street
New York, NY 10036
fax: (212) 556-3622
Has anyone done a study on what effects an early exposure to unconsciously postured role-faking paranoid parents has on children?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
While watching alot of Cartoon Network because I have far too much time on my hands I noticed some cartoons from Warners brothers and the like from lesser known characters.
Man there are things in them eupised that uptight companies like turner would never allow from current cartoons, but because these old `toons` are hella old they get granfather claused allowed to be aired.
HA! my nerd friends and I were playing Zork and watching anime when I was in 8th grade! (I'm now 28) I see another patern at work here: Geeks like it. 15 years go by. Cool kids like it. The Fools! The damned Fools!!
You could apply this to the game Digimon was based off of but not the anime
Yes.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
It's funny, because alot of it is so blantantly *wrong*.... The writer seems rather unknowning about the topic.......
That's not *entirely* true.
There are still lots of edits done to some of the old Looney Tunes bunch. A lot having to do with nooses and downing bottles of pills and such.
I recently started looking into the matter (by coincidence) and come to find out there are several which simply *will never* be seen again due to ethnic stereotyping and the like. Do a search for 'Tokio Jokio','Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips', and 'All This and Rabbit Stew.' And even more from the pre-looney tunes era (Harmon-Ising) which are even more blatantly so. Should they be shown? A moral dilemna arises. They *should* be available *somewhere* as a matter of history....
After doing my research and doing a little late night viewing of CN this weekend. I'm glad to say a lot of what *had* been cut previously seems to have returned....
For a good idea just search for 'censored looney tunes' and see what has/had been done to them in the past.
Blech. Signatures.
It's certainly not going to make most people who read that passage commit incest, but I'm willing to bet that it has been used by some to justify and excuse their own pre-existing inclinations. Reading such a passage may be enough to make the right (or wrong) kind of person go from mere thought into action.
There is a false dichotomy at work here by which some people assume that in order for something to have a meaningful effect, it must affect all people equally. Even if TV violence or Biblical incest has a negative effect on only one person in ten thousand, that is still a problem.
But I don't advocate censorship; I'm simply trying to inject a little reason into the discussion.
As to gaguing their personalities, all I can say is they have a hell of a lot more friends than I was their age. And they're going to parties. The 16 year old (a female, but also a bit of a ditz) is one of those "popular" girls at school.
That's not to say that I approve of any of this. I'm just stating what I see.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Who exactly takes issue with this? How many non-geeks in the USA are even aware that Ranma 1/2 exists? Nobody shows it on TV, do they? It isn't that I don't believe you, I'm just curious.
Just trying to open someone's head! I mean "mind!" Open someone's mind, um, to the possibilities! With explosives!
Do you want your children watching Barney the Dinosaur, or pointing and laughing at their peers who do? -Crusty
>> Linux is cool because no one uses it.
Personally, I'm of the persuasion that an entity is only Cool if it posses fundamental qualities of Coolness. Thus once a thing is determined to be in fact Cool then it shall remain Cool for all time.
I'm tempted to replace your use of the term Cool with the word Popular which denotes a more fleeting attribute dependant on the outside environment rather than on any inherent qualities.
On the other hand that doesn't make sense because that would mean that Linux was destined to be popular for only as long as it was unpopular.
My brain is going to implode.
Care about freedom?
I'd rather be lucky than good.
This guys one main assumption is that all of anime is violent. At least he didn't get into the old standby that its nothing but tentacle sex.
However, this isn't the point. Everything that he mostly said occured on episodes last week. And even then, all he looked at was the violence, as if the entire show was based off of it. Such as Batman Beyond, anyone that has seen any of the WB animation shows in the past few years KNOW that they DONT kill anyone. there is always something or someone that saves the villan.
And when has there ever been a spot where the 'Violence' that exist in Pokemon was ever directed at the humans? Its all been Pokemon against pokemon, and the equivilent to looney tunes.
As for the quote that sometimes friends have to fight each other to get their point across. that was taken out of context. What occured is that one of the guys on digemon was down on himself as he caused the trouble that he was in, one of his friends hit him to snap him out of it. and his brother said that the the only reason that friends should fight is if they are boxing partners.
and to think that the Road Runner was taken off TV... How pathetic.
flinging poop since 1969
Have there been any studies done on the effects that an early exposure to sex has on children?
-- it's always easier to convince yourself that the other person is wrong
Well, at least MTV isn't hypocrite ;) Showing video's which contain violence, but censoring some parts... I don't think that'll make kids any less violent... They know what's under the beep or under the blur dontcha think?
The sheer volume of anime series produced is astounding. Many of the people who suddenly latch onto the few sick dubbed broadcast anime will never know the joys of watching such classics as Kimangure Orange Road, Marmalade Boy, Evangelion, Macross, etc, etc.
Every time a series becomes overdone, the 'trend setters' always move onto new ones. My new series is Kareshi Kanojyo no Jijyo, great stuff.
Call on God, but row AWAY from the rocks!
The Pokemon anime was not inspired by Nintendo's videogame. I think it was the other way around
First, there were Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue for the Game Boy handheld console, quite good console RPGs. Then the TV show came out and fscked up the whole franchise. For example, instead of Team Rocket being like the Mafia, it became two dumbarses. And Ash was also dumbed down and given a voice nearly identical to that of Noddy from PBS's Noddy. It's almost as bad as what happened to Super Mario Bros. the Movie. Ecch. And then they tried to turn the TV show into a video game (Pokemon Special Pikachu Edition, commonly known as Pokemon Yellow).
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
We always hear about sex in media to. Where have you been?
Effect: To produce a causally related event or condition
Response: To act or become in a way in relation to a stimulus
They're the same you moron, except for the bit about responsibility. That is the only difference.
You are reducing the topic to "We are 'effect'ed by such and such". The poster responded of his own will not just because you have "such an effect on people." He responded because he believes your c ontext is deceptively and intentionally narrow
as if other contexts did not exist.
In an attempt to open up the context so that truthful discussion could take place he proposed a coounter example. Your nit picking is irrelevant. It does not answer the point he was making. And so I will now ask:
Do you think your children should read the passage about Lot's Daughters, might it cause them to try to fuck you?
It's a bit like asking what effect does rain have on people in a way that avoids arguing with someone who might bring up skin cancer caused by ultraviolet rays.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
I find it interesting that the network execs are so stupid to think that nerds are coming around to anime. Are they ostriches or what? I started watching anime in 1st grade, so about 1980 or '81, good ole Starblazers. So does this mean I am cool, or am I still a nerd because I am a techy person?
Besides can't we have our cool stuff, oh wait we invent the cool stuff;)
If you are a SA or a tech of any type and work for the networks tell them to bite off. We'll see just how cool they are when there servers and other things tech stop working. (I am not suggesting starting a Union, unless we call it the Geek Alliance, I would say brotherhood, but that would leave out the sisters.)
> if you read it, you'll see that Lot's daughters
> purposefully got him drunk and fucked him.
Sheesh, that's just what he told the police.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
http://channel.nytimes.com/2001/01/28/business/28T OON.html
No reg required.
"There are bad people out there that will try to do bad things." - Microsoft 05/11/00
First, I see nothing "funny" about this article --- its a serious issue, whether we like it or not. (Perhaps Mr. Malda could point out precisely what is so "amusing" about this trend?) On a side note, the quote from Jon Mandel is *his* prediction that the trend of "Americanized" afternoon anime is about halfway. I had no indication after reading the print version of the article (I assume they are identical) that he implied the "end of anime."
Just my two cents.
Anime is merely a medium, independant of its message. Watch "Neon Genesis Evangelion" and then watch "Pokemon" and tell me that they are the same.
True, the anime medium was traditionally shunned by the US for many years, and now has come into acceptance. This is not so much a consequence of the medium as the proconceptions people had about it. Most people thought it was obscure, confusing crap in a foreign language, or thought it was all porn, or any number of other misconceptions about anime (most of which apply to at least some anime, but hardly to all of it.) However, when pokemon came into popular acceptance, many of those misconceptions were proven wrong. True, pokemon and the like will, at some point, fall from favor, but how many artistic movements have passed without the dissapearance of oil on canvas?
#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}
F(#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}%cF(%s))
Also, let's take in to account that this sort of imagery originated in Japan, a sublimely repressed society. While there is little crime, and women and children can ride the subways at midnight, or walk dark alleys without fear of muggings, rape or other violence, neither can they stray from the accepted norms of society. Manga comics depict rape and other sexual violence towards schoolgirls, and yet, the schoolgirls are safe in Japan from sexual predators. All this violent imagery seems to be an outlet for desires that the Japanese as human beings have, but cannot act upon in their restrictive society. If anything, it keeps the people in line, not makes them shoot their classmates.
It comes down to a case of personal responsibility. I happen to like Batman Beyond. This does not mean that I am going to don a balck cape and armor and become a vigilante in my spare time. While I do own a black cape, I just don't have that kind of disposable cash. It is an outlet, however. When Joe Cellphone cuts me off in his Ford Extinction for the billionth time, it helps me to know I can go home and watch the black-coweled avenger exact some measure of justice in an unjust world.
If more people took some personal responsibility for their actions, instead of blaming Union Carbide, or Philip Morris, or Hollywood, then the world would be a far better place.
How does the NYT feel about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Masterpiece (which it is, by the way), or violent tripe that must be repressed "to save the children?"
The media should stop kidding itself. It's all "Rural Farm Wife Gives Birth To Elvis' Three-Headed Dog-child."
Do not touch -Willie
Indeed. Actually, it would have been cool if Ken Burns had included "Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves" (caricature of Cab Calloway as Prince Chawmin', lots of West Coast Swing musicians on the soundtrack) and "Tin Pan Alley Cats" (Protagonist modeled on Fats Waller) as part of the "Jazz" episode covering the WWII years.
Both cartoons, once you get past their very mild and NOT mean-spirited stereotypes, were literally love letters to Jazz by master cartoonist/rabid Jazz fan Bob Clampett. They rock HARD and it's a shame that they are on the official AOL Time Warner "Banned List". The caricatures in the two cartoons were direct caricatures of either famous Jazz musicians Clampett admired or real Jazz musicians Clampett knew because he frequented Swing clubs on Central Ave. in LA when he wasn't cranking out cartoons in Termite Terrace, WB's animated shorts studio.
If you want to see truly mean-spirited, evil stereotypes, watch beloved, celebrated WB cartoonist Chuck Jones' "Angel Puss." Everyone loves Jones and castigates Clampett for "Coal Black" but "Angel Puss" is a cartoon only a KKK Kleagle could love. A stereotypical "pickaninny" boy is given "two bits" to drown a cat. Makes my fsckn skin crawl just thinking about it.
Thing is, you can't judge these cartoons on their merits anymore, because stupid AOL Time Warner is SITTING ON THEM in their vaults. They should grow a backbone and make these cartoons available again.
----
http://www.msgeek.org/ -- Because you can't keep a geek grrl down!
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
I think the complaints are about the realism of the violence, not the amount of violence. In "anime-style" cartoons someone is more likely to be actually dazed, bleeding or injured from being punched, stabbed or shot.
Personally, I think this is good. Most kids seem to think that violence is fun, I've known more than one who has been injured because his friend thought playing fights would be fun. If violence is portrayed, it's effect should also be portrayed.
BTW, the other main point the author missed was that most Japanese anime is not meant for young children - there is some such as Doraemon (sp?), which are less violent.
Here are some examples, from throughout the ages, of how Pokemon singlehandedly incites violence. Gengis Khan: "I choose you, Mongol Hordeion!" Nero: "Vulpix, flame thrower attack, now!" Hitler: "Jewish bastard tricked me out of my Mewtwo card!"
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
How would that work if one was a middle schooler?
I guess I should stop watching TV.
Ewige Blumenkraft.
If they saw Scream at the age of 11, that would mean they are at most 16 by now, since the movie was released in 1996. I don't really see how there can be an "in the long run" for kids aged 16...
I myself had a change in personality at the age of 15, when my family moved to another town, and then again at 18, when I moved to my own place.
I am now 24 and am looking forward to yet another opportunity to rebuild my personality quite soon, so I don't see how you can speak about the personalities of your little brothers as if they were fixed...
Its not so much the violence in shows that DBZ that worries me. Its pokemon and digimon that are far more insidious. These shows demonstrate that kids should collect small animals and make them fight to the death for their own amusement! We call this cockfighting, where I'm from.
I bet you'll find some sort of cockfighting association is behind the rise in popularity of Pokemon. 5 years from now, The World Cockfighting Federation will replace pro-wrestling on the networks. "Red Rooster, I choose you!"
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My favorite part of the article is when the author says that violence in these new shows is gretaer than anything found in Roadrunner or Tom and Jerry. How blatantely wrong can you be? I don't see anyone in Pokemon shoving dynamite in a rabbit's mouth and laughing as it explodes.
This really gets to me. Why is it worse to show consequences of actions? In most anime, violence has effects. People get hurt, scarred, or die. The author comes out and says that the violence in animes is the sole selling point, that it is essentially worthless. This is the opposite of the truth. In most US cartoons, the violence really does *not* serve any purpose other than superficial. What is there to Roadrunner when you take away the violence? What about GI Joe? In most anime's, the violence *does something*. Children learn to face obstacles, and grown ups learn new things about themselves. The plot moves along. Not to mention that a huge number of animes have strong anti-violence messages. Trigun and Kenshin are the best two examples of this. US cartoons usually don't even have a plot to move along, as they proceed on an episode-by-episode basis, as opposed to the arcs in anime.
Additionally, the article makes it seem like the nefarious Japanese are deliberately inflicting this on out children. The article makes the point that anime's are usuallly produced with about 5 times less money than american cartoons, and the author says, essentially, that this is because Japanese animators are churning out cheap thrills, with the violence as the selling point. In truth, Japanese producers just make do with less money. The author even insults the technical animation in animes, saying that it is "choppy".
Arg. I think my head is going to explode.
!sirE liaH ->- Hail Eris!
Things become uncool once _everyone_ likes it. Linux is cool because no one uses it. Five years down the line when everyone is using it, /. will have moved on to something more cool because no one uses it. Or how about those stupid scooters. One day everyone had them, and they instantly became "overdone" and thus not cool. Likewise, anime will have a big surge in popularity, then once the trend-seekers (NOT -settters) move on it will go back to noise level from whence it came. I think everyone knows that cool kids merely latch onto someone else's trends, whether they be oppressed minorities (blacks or geeks) or marketoids like Mattel and Sharper Image.
My first experience with a "violent" film was seeing a commercial for Little Shop of Horrors at age 6 (they fed an innocent man to the plant -- I ran from the room screaming and crying). When we had to see a flick on railroad safety in 4th grade I threw up (they showed someone getting hit by a train and later, bodybags).
Since my Dad died 9 years ago (when I was 13), my little brothers have been exposed to a lot more violent imagery than I have. Nothing major, but the little ones saw Scream around age 11. The proof in the long run has been, however, that they are a lot more social with their peers, handle life's challenges more adamently (they don't run away like I did in high school), and generally lead happier lives. It seems to be a culture phenomonom.
I won't say that all kids should be forced to watch violent media (one of my high school teachers force fed Braveheart to his 3 year-old son. I think that's just wrong), but it seems in today's society you get along a little better with peers if you do. This seems to make you happier and friendlier with kids your age, Columbine whackos be damned.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
The author of the article says that violence in these anime cartoons goes beyond the level seen in old WB/MGM/etc cartoons, but I would be inclined to disagree. How many shootings are there in your average Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam cartoon? For that matter, how many acts of violence in your standard fairy tale (he asked, kicking the witch into the oven)? Even the westerns and pioneer stories that today's concerned adults grew up with were chock full of violence. We're a bloodthirsty species; we like our adrenaline. This isn't new or reprehensible; it's just the way things are.
All I know is that everything I know about fighting supervillains from outer space, I learned from watching television.
There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets? - Dick Cavett