Is Law Copyrighted?

Guppy06 writes: "There's an interesting tidbit here at the San Diego Union-Tribune about a guy who posted his local (Denison, TX) building code on the internet and prompty got nasty-grams from copyright lawyers at the Southern Building Code Congress International Inc. The bill in question was copyrighted by the group before it was sent to the local legislature, so the wording of the law belongs to them. So far, two Federal courts agree with the group. In the article, they seem to be taking the Microsoft-esque view of 'Who would write these things for free? Look at all the good it's done!'" And since many laws are written wholly by groups composed of non-legislators (the article lists a few), disseminating them on the Internet is a misdeed?

Comments

Circular reasoning

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this circular reasoning? "The law can be copyrighted because we think that the law says so."

Re:Circular reasoning

[eric17]

Yep. There ought to be law against circular reasoning in laws.

Not unusual

[Anonymous Coward]

A couple of years ago, in British Columbia, Canada, the agency that regulates pressure vessels required for renewal of license that everyone purchase or provide proof of posession of a number of documents and manuals pertinent to the Act. It cost over $300 for the whole thing. It consisted of about 3/4 inch thick bunch of papers. Some were copies of the legislation, courtesy of Queens Printer. There were two booklets put out by ASME on piping standards. All copyright. I suspect this isn't unusual. Those who need to know this stuff are doing it to generate money, same with the building code. Who should pay for the production and distribution of the regulations? All taxpayers? Or those who use and benefit from them? Who pays the engineers to come up with the standards? The whole industry, through fees to engineers and architects, who then send fees to the various associations they belong to. Remember, if you want to freely distribute what you produce, good for you. If someone else doesn't want to freely distribute what they produce, good for them. Free software depends on copyright law as much as the proprietary endeavors. If you want engineered and peer reviewed and tested standards for buildings for free, write your own. Then get them adopted by the various local authorities. And get alot of insurance. Derek

Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[sahai]

From the 14th Ammendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

An odd world indeed where you deny some of the citizens (the ones who can't afford to pay a private organization that presumably can price its "product" however it wishes!) the right to view, share, and circulate the law among themselves. At the very least, non-commercial distribution with any changes clearly marked ought to be allowed if we want the citizenry to have "equal protection of the laws."

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[DunbarTheInept]

What you say would only make sense if the code was not a law. Once it becomes a law then the governing body is under obligation to make it as easy as possible for the public to read.

Sure, ignorance of the law isn't supposed to be an excuse, but in this case ignorance of the law is being required by law. That just can't possibly be legal. I'm no lawyer, but this sounds fishy. I suspect we aren't getting all the facts here.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[DunbarTheInept]

You are essentially arguing that it is right and good to require someone to PAY a PRIVATE company just to learn what the law is that he is being forced to live under.

What's next? Will you have to pay Rand McNally to get a map to find out what all the speed limits are on the roads for your next car trip, because they won't be posted but you'll be required to obey them anyway?

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[Brian See]

The Fifth Circuit held that due process wasn't violated because the code was "available". What Veeck did was to copy the disk he got from the building code people, and paste it onto his website. Wholesale copying.

The Fifth Circuit thinks that if you can go the library, and see the code there (for free), or go the public works department and ask to see a copy of the code, then due process is satisfied.

Also note that fair use is a real hard argument to make here, since Veeck copied the entire code. By making it freely available online, he eviscerated the market for the work.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[Brian See]

As with many issues raised by this thread, I think the answer lies in the text of the Fifth Circuit's decision. The crux of the case, I maintain, is the due process argument.

If a model code author restricted the terms under which it published the code such that citizens could not easily obtain copies or learn their content, then due process would be violated, even though the author would be acting within the scope of its rights as a copyright holder. Due process requires that citizens have access to the laws.

Again, I'll ask: Does due process require citizens to have free, instant, online access to the laws, or is physical access at City Hall or the library enough? I think that's the question really posed by this case.

Additionally, the Fifth Circuit explicitly rejected Veeck's argument of copyright misuse; the court said that Veeck presented no evidence of misuse. (Some /. readers might claim that filing of an infringement suit is misuse, I suppose.)

Finally, I'll address the earlier post in this thread that mentioned me by name.

When I referred to the "market for the work", I was addressing the copyright issue -- directed at the comment, "Making it available for public reference sure seems like a fair use of the text of legislation to me."

My comments regarding the market for the work were meant to parallel the Fifth Circuit's decision, which stated, "Veeck's posting of the codes on the Internet could prove harmful by reducing SBCCI's market and depriving it of income used in its socially valuable effort of confecting, promulgating, and revising model codes." The market is not for the law itself, but for SBCCI's book / disk.

Law publishing is an extremely lucrative business. Just ask Lexis or Westlaw...

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[Brian See]

Okay, I think we must be on completely different wavelengths because when you start talking about a market in what the law that bind you says you sound insane.

I'm not insane -- we're just operating under different assumptions.

I was talking only about fair use. One of the factors in determining fair use is "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work". See 17 U.S.C. 107.

In the Veeck decision, the Fifth Circuit found that SBCCI had a valid copyright in the text of the building code.

I stated that there's no argument for fair use. SBCCI makes money by selling copies of the codes, so it's commercial use. Veeck took the entire work and put it on his website. Why pay SBCCI for a copy when you can get it online for free?

Your argument that the market is eliminated by submitting the work to the legislature really goes to the constitutional (due process) issue, and not the copyright issue. You're assuming that the model code's adoption as the law makes the copyright unenforceable; the Fifth Circuit, whether rationally or not, rejected that argument.

Thus, when considering the fair use argument, there's no difference between the model building code and the latest Stephen King novel. And so there's no fair use when you copy and republish the entire work.

This is not legal advice. Go to a lawyer, not /., for legal advice.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[rking]

Also note that fair use is a real hard argument to make here, since Veeck copied the entire code.

Making it available for public reference sure seems like a fair use of the text of legislation to me.

By making it freely available online, he eviscerated the market for the work

Okay, I think we must be on completely different wavelengths because when you start talking about a market in what the law that bind you says you sound insane.

In any sane society the authors would be considered to have "eviscerated the market for the work" by submitting it for consideration by the legislature. At that moment it should no longer be under their control.

In any event, I can't really imagine what market value you feel that it has other than that given to it by the process of it being enacted at public expense.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[rking]

Thus, when considering the fair use argument, there's no difference between the model building code and the latest Stephen King novel. And so there's no fair use when you copy and republish the entire work.

Untrue. 17 U.S.C. 107, as you're presumably aware since you linked to it, states that one of the factors is "the nature of the copyrighted work". To say that there is no difference between the model building code and the latest Stephen King novel is to abandon that provision. They clearly are not the same, and the fact that they are not the same (i.e. are different in nature) is relevant to whether or not any use constitutes fair use, because the Act specifically says so.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[hey!]

First, I appreciate your informative comments (and I don't hold you personally responsible for the irrational ways one area of the law fail to mesh with another).

I have a question.

Would the legislature have to get permission to copy the law to place it into the body of the law? Couldn't it be argued that in the absence of a formal license agreement, they are clearly implicitly granting to the state certain privileges necessary to the law becoming a law (being copied and circulated among legislators for example) and for the law to operate as a law (copies being made and circulated to courts, and deriviatve works to be made by amending the law)? And that, if this does not explicitly constitute outright abandonment, then certainly one of the rights that must be granted to the legislature is the right to publish the laws through third parties as it does its other laws?

On the other hand, if is not the case that the legislature has been implicitly licensed to make copies or to authorize copies to be made, then it was misusing the copyrighted works when it placed them into law, and the law itself is null?

By the way, I don't hold much stock with the idea that there is equal protection because you can go to the library to read the building code. Copyright doesn't, if I am not mistaken, put any kind of limitations on how the holder uses his monopoly. The copyright holder doesn't have to make them available to libraries or to the general public, but can use the work in other various profit maximizing ways. It isn't hard to envision various ways to turn exclusive control over the text of the law into a very lucrative business -- for example effectively dictating which builders are allowed to build in the state of TX. This is why I believe that any rational person who looks at this situation must believe that if the SBCC didn't abandon its interest in the code when it submitted it to the legislature, at the very least the legislature has a very broad right to publish (to authorize copies to be made) the law.

It seems fair enough. The market value of the model code is nothing; the market value of the actual code comes from its adoption by the state.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[knarf]

Balderdash!

Please back up for a second, and look at what you just wrote.

Connect it to the subject you wrote about: laws which we're supposed to know and uphold.

Now look at your comparison between a law text and a Stephen King novel.

Comparing disparate things does not an argument make. The law is simply the written code which citizens of a 'civilized' country are supposed to follow. Since they're supposed to know the law, they should be able to get hold of the law texts when needed. While the same law may entitle writers to remuneration for their work, it is simply inexcusable to keep those affected by the law from reading the rules they're supposed to follow.

The mere fact that you need to use lawyer-speak to defend the practice of charging for access to the law text indicates that the current implementation of 'law and order' has veered far and wide from the original purpose. Law, and everything related to it, is simply a profit center. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Law texts should be freely available for anyone, and the Internet is one of the ways this can be achieved. End of argument.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[sconeu]

IANAL (thank goodness), but it seems to me that if this happened in CA, it would be a violation of the Brown Act, which states that all governmental meetings must be public, and of public record. In CA, then, wouldn't the public meeting where the text became law put the "copyrighted" material in the public record, and therefore the public domain?

Any lawyers out there want to comment?

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[turbosk]

I'm getting vertigo 'cause this is the first /. story to knock me ass over tin cups in a while. And Brian See's comments have had the disorienting and disturbing effect of seeing a lost soul trying to defend the indefensible- creating a "market" for laws. Responding to BS (and i use the abbreviation with no little irony) , Voters are Not Law Consumers. Unless Things have become very, Very Fucked Up.. . . which mebbe they have. hiding under the bed, fred

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[aozilla]

And so there's no fair use when you copy and republish the entire work.

Well, now, this is interesting. A phone book can't be copied, because it lacks originality. It is basically a compilation of facts. So presumably, you couldn't copyright a law. But, this was copyrighted before it became a law. I think most people would agree that things can't automatically become uncopyrighted because they become a law. Otherwise, a small little town could make a law saying for instance "You must read the following text:" followed by the complete text of say a new Stephen King novel. I think most people would agree that that would not make the Stephen King novel public domain, especially not for national/international publication.

I can't come up with a situation where you can copy and republish an entire work and it still fall under fair use.

I think there's a good chance the supreme court will take this case, and it'll be interesting to see the ruling.

Re:Due Process??? Equal Protection???

[_ph1ux_]

It is of my opinion that any lawmaker/legislative representative that upholds the copyright on this, or any other law, should be permanently removed from legislative duty and dis-barred for life.

If they are going to practice law, and be in a position of authority over the people such that they determine the laws - they better damn well have my best interest in mind.

I cannot express how pissed off this makes me.

The more insane this reality becomes - almost makes me look forward to the end.

I am not a lawyer - but i play one on /.

Re:to hell in a ledger-book

[davie]

As opposed to what, profit-seeking socialists who sell their constituents out for a quick chunk of campaign cash every time they get a chance, then lie their asses off about it and claim it's all for the children?

The problem is voters who think they can use the ballot box to elect themselves a free lunch and don't pay attention to what the weasels they elect are really doing. The pitch is "we're going to make the other guy pay your way," but guess who ends up paying? Everybody.

The solution is simple

[DunbarTheInept]

The solution is simple, It shouldn't be legal in the first place to enact a law that is not allowed to be publicly viewed in ANY and ALL media (It's not enough to make me have to come down and see the paper version.) So, in the case of the Stephan King text, it shouldn't be legal for the law to be created in the first place unless the text is opened up by the current copyright holder. (Mr. King.)

It should be standard procedure that only open material be in the text of a law. Period. If previously copyrighted material is to become law, then the original copyright owner must bless the change in "license" before that can happen.

If the SBCCI wants to keep it's text closed, they have every right to, but doing so should prevent it from becoming a law. If they want it to be a law, then they have to open it first, as part of the public record (BEFORE it goes to a vote, as well, since the legistlature shouldn't be voting on things in secret where the public doesn't know what's being voted on.)

At least, that would be the way the world worked if people were sane, and fair. Too bad we don't live in that world.

What the hell is the complaint the SBCCI has with this anyway, I wonder? If they wanted to be the ones to draft the building codes, then they should be happy that they are being dissemated. That's what they're FOR!

Re:How Can this be

[DunbarTheInept]

If you wait until it becomes law for the text to enter the public domain, you've waited too long. The public MUST have the right to know what is being proposed and debated on WHILE it is still being debated, so they may take political action on the issue BEFORE it's already a done deal. If you disagree, then you aren't in favor of the concept of democracy.

This really isn't new

[Wansu]

One of the outfits mentioned in the article is the National Fire Protection Association which publishes the National Electrical Code. This is the basis of the electrical building codes in most ares. They publish a new one every 3 years with changes coming from their committees composed of electricians, engineers, inspectors, insurance company reps, etc. I think I have copies of the 1978 and 1987 NEC somewhere. It is chock full of niggling details. There's an online version at:

http://www.necdirect.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/ho me .html?E+necnonmembers

I've heard many a story about people having to rip out work because it didn't meet code. Not all of it was obvious or intuitive. These folks either learned what to do to comply or the hired someone who did.

If someone posts the NEC online, I'll bet the NFPA lawyers are on them like stink.

Now, do we really want to remove this activity from the NFPA and put it in the state or federal congress? Most of them don't know their hole from a butt-in-the-ground about electrical work. The proceeds from the sale of the NEC funds the efforts to keep it current. If it's put up for free, do we fund it with tax dollars? Do you really want to go read all that shit anyway? I mean, the only people who need the NEC are people who are building something.

How can you copy it?

[Danse]

Do they have to allow you to photocopy it, or do you have to copy it by hand? I'm thinking that before photocopiers existed, people must have done it some other way, so who decides when it's time to mandate that a newer technology be used to facilitate more convenient access to the law for the public?

Re:Here we...

[sjames]

I guess I'm getting a little off the point; my point is perhaps sometimes government has a right to limit access to their very expensive R&D at times.

Every government I know of is solely funded by the governed. In the U.S., the people own the government (at least in theory, in fact it seems the other way around sometimes). So you believe that a contractor (government) has a right to withold it's work for hire (expensive R&D) from those who hired it (the people) even though they paid for it(taxes)?

Re:This is really old news . . .

[Charles Durst]

In the meanwhile, building contractors have hardly had difficulty getting their hands on the building codes.

That explains why building contracters aren't complaining.

For example, just yesterday I was wondering how I, as a homeowner, could be sure that my own electrical work on my house was "up to code."

Now I hear that I'm not allowed to access that information for free on the Internet. I have to either purchase manuals that I will never need again (before the code changes), or do research by going down to the county clerk's office.

Maybe it would just be easier to hire an electrical contractor ...

Re:Stop, and think

[jedidiah]

It is simply against sane public policy to make it more difficult than necessary to be aware of the law.

Any law that can't be spread far and wide by the populace at will only serves to underimine order.

Also, there is already a process in place for the state to forcefully assimilate real property of persons. There's no good reason that this cannot be implemented for pseudo-property as well.

It's a remarkably artifical problem.

Re:

[jedidiah]

Without full disclosure, your comments are meaningless. There is quite a large audience for law manuals and legal textbooks. Lawyers aren't quite so rare as you would have us believe. So, one has to seriously wonder just what costs are actually involved here. Without real details, we have no way of knowing whether or not this is just a market where publishers think they can take advantage of their victms (...er customers). People expect that Lawyers will have the money to pay. That's all there is to it.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision is copyrighted

[wayne]

The acutal case is Veeck v. Southern Building Code Congress Int'l, 241 F.3d 398 (5th Cir. 2001). (Link is to Findlaw version.)

And, of course, at the bottom of this web page, there is the note "Copyright © 1994-2001 FindLaw". This isn't just standard boiler plate for a web page, companies like FindLaw and Westlaw claim copyrights over much of the American case law.

Well, they don't own the copyright to the actual case law, but they have contracts to be the sole publisher for court documents. They then intermix the public domain case law with their own works so that it is extremely hard to seperate their copyrighted additions from the rest. You want to practice law? You will end up paying yearly fees to these companies. The courts see this as a big plus because they don't have to publish this stuff themselves and no tax dollars are spent.

Re:Write to Congress!

[Parsec]

Or at least, proposed laws must be reviewed by citizen juries in advance of their acceptance as laws.

Theoretically that is who we have elected to represent us.

I need about three-fifty

[Ranger]

I know some people want to privatize government functions but this is taking it too far.

I said "I was just taking my monkey for a walk, officer." and you know wht he said "Sorry son you are breaking Title 69." So I sez back to him "Let me see that law!"

"That'll be tree-fiddy."

That's when I noticed that the officer was eight stories tall, covered with green scales and had big red eyes. It was the Loch Ness monster!

"I ain't givin' no damn monster tree-fiddy. Get your own goddamn money."

GREAT!

[Chas]

GREAT!

I 'effing love it!

Laws that nobody can read because the exact wording of them is copyrighted.

What jackass came up with this idiotic notion?

The public law HAS to be available for public consumption by ANY means. Otherwise you're stifling all discourse over the issues covered in the law!

Ye BOB! Just when I thought it couldn't get any dumber in this country!


Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!

Re:If not you are an enemy of mine

[unitron]

Something either is, or is not, perfect. The Constitution may be, however, the most nearly perfect framework...

The DMCA and the Bono act could still wind up before the Supreme Court many different times, with different plantiffs and lawyers making different arguments, so the future of neither law is certain. In the meantime, check the Constitution for the legal definition of treason, and lighten up a bit. The Constitution gives us a means to work against laws with which we disagree without having to go to the extreme of taking up arms and replacing the government.

Re:The Government should buy the copyright

[unitron]

Actually these codes *are* updated on a regular basis, not to maintain a revenue stream, but to incorporate lessons learned (aluminum wiring being one good example) and to accomodate new technologies.

The National Fire Protection Association, for example, revises the National Electrical Code every 3 years.

The NFPA is a non-profit started years ago by insurance companies. (If nothing ever happens to you that an insurance company has to pay out on, count your blessings. You may have been saved by rules and laws designed to both protect you from harm and the insurance companies from loss. No matter how you feel about insurance companies, it's better if you don't get hurt.)

Local governments can incorporate some or all of the NEC into local building codes, but nobody's forcing them to. However it's probably good that they do. Imagine trying to manufacture products or write insurance policies if every community wrote their own codes with no consideration given to anybody else's. Imagine the cost to every community to create and maintain their own at a professional enough level to keep from being sued by half of the citizens.

Re:To Serve Man

[unitron]

The Twilight Zone episode has the same plot (and punchline)as the short story because it's based on that same story.

You would think...

[Booker]

You would think that if your friendly Town Hall was going to hire someone to write their laws, they would AT LEAST insist that the resulting document belong to the City, and not to the legal firm.

If it's copyrighted, there are probably terms of use - I'd like to see what those are...

"Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?"

If not you are an enemy of mine

[Archfeld]

and every right thinking citizen of the USA

Re:If not you are an enemy of mine

[stpats]

Since when is being born in the USA suddenly a tacit EULA signing action to abide by and/or accept constitution?

If people who don't agree with the constitution are enemies of "the right thinking", then you'd better go back to the original, because last time I checked there had been amendments made - these amendments were no doubt made by people who didn't fully accept the constition as it was written, and hence were the enemies of "the right thinking" Americans of that time and the current.

Re:If not you are an enemy of mine

[Chainsaw Messiah]

because last time I checked there had been amendments made .. etc.

Uh, yes, but if you do a little research, you'll learn that the first 10 amendments were made prior to the states' first ratification of the Constitution. They were made to correct omissions (not errors) in the "base" of the document and can fully be considered part of the original. Though the "Bill of Rights" are called amendments, this doesn't diminish their importance in the document as a whole.

Re:If not you are an enemy of mine

[mikethegeek]

"and every right thinking citizen of the USA"

Exactly. While the Constitution is NOT a perfect document/framework for a government (nothing created by man, not God ever can be), it IS by far the MOST perfect framework ever authored, much less implimented.

These rulings fly in defiance of it. And the judges imvolved, tread on thin ice that borders on treason.

Re:If not you are an enemy of mine

[mikethegeek]

I'll admit that it DOES sound extreme to accuse these judges of Treason, but think of it this way...

What way greater to betray the United States than to betray the Constitution, by failing to apply it to statutory (copyright) law when it threatens Constitutional freedoms?

As far as taking up arms against the government, I hope that it never happens, but ultimately, the final and ONLY check on the power of a Federal Government is the threat of a betrayed Citizenry overthowing it by force of arms.

LMAO

[Archfeld]

Someday I'll be a law :)

Re:Only in America...

[Art Tatum]

If only more people realized why international governance was problematic...

Re:Only in America...

[MbM]

I'm sorry, but by posting this you've broken a law owned by my firm.

"I didn't see anything saying I couldn't do that!"
It wasn't posted. You need to obtain an official copy.

"Well what law did I break?"
I'm sorry, you'll need to purchase an official printed and bound copy for $350 for that answer.

"Wait a minute, how do I know this isn't a scam?"
Legal fees If you're wrong will run in ecess of $550. Printed copies of our law are only $350. Are you willing to take that chance?

"Hey! nothing in here says I can't do that. I'm calling my lawyer."
Has he purchased an official copy?
- MbM

Re:It is valid under the 14th amendment

[Big Boss]

Uh, no. The Libertarian deffinition of "initiation of force" is an act that places an individual's person or property in immediate danger without first receiving such force from another party.

Example: If I'm walking down the street minding my own business and someone stops me wielding a knife, that is initiation of force. If I draw a gun and shoot them, it is self defence.

Now, in the context of this discussion, weather you decide that copying the law and distributing it is theft determines if you would consider it force. Personally, I feel and I think most Libertarians would agree, that the LAW I am REQUIRED BY GOVERNMENT FORCE TO OBEY is public domain. If you hold copyright on a law that is passed you grant implicit permission for the text of that law to be copied and distributed. Otherwise the citizenry cannot know the law. The method of distribution is irrevelant. If you say that the law is available because anyone can go to a local government office or public library and read it, then I have done nothing that has not allready been done by publishing it online. It does not change the fact that anyone who wishes to can read it. It only changes the method of reading, time, and location. Thus, it is no different then what they did by allowing the text to become law.

Sure you can

[unicorn]

You can complain about something, without quoting it wholsale. And furthermore, as has been said several times, the reason that it was found to be a violation in this case, was that the law was readily available.

So either the law is readily available, and in your protest documents, you can refer people to it's sources. And quote appropriate passages, as needed as well.

Or it's not going to be readily available for people to read, and you can quote it wholesale in your screed.

For crying out loud!

[unicorn]

They were published. And for a quite reasonable fee, to cover both the distribution, and the original creation of the document, ANYONE had complete access to them.

Re:For crying out loud!

[Prior Restraint]

...for a quite reasonable fee,... ANYONE had complete access to them.

So, the poorest among us can be held accountable for laws they can't afford to read?

Not even close

[unicorn]

When the book in question, is printed in a fairly limited run, the per copy price goes up. And I'm sure, that a building codes book doesn't exactly burn up the bestseller list.

Further, the non-profit had to pay experts to create the document in question. And that's a VERY significant expense as well.

Hypocrisy, at it's best

[unicorn]

Once again, the editors, and the mass of users of /. are rising up to protest a law, and an organization, just because they are restricting in some small incredibly insignificant way, the flow of information.

The government in this case chose to let an experienced, knowlegable group generate laws, that frankly the lawmakers are incredibly ill suited to have created themselves. Then, rather than paying a large sum of cash up front and throwing the rules out into the public domain, they allowed the writers to retain copyright, so they could earn something for their work by selling copies.

At no time, did the government hide these laws. The information was readily available through governemnt offices, and at local libraries. Anyone that needed to see them, could. Anyone that felt they needed a copy, had every right to purchase a copy for a reasonable fee. Nobody was ever being compelled to follow directives that they were not allowed to know.

Based on reading how the court found in this case, and interpreting fair use laws, anyone that wanted to protest these laws, almost certainly wouldn't have been denied the ability to quote appropriately from them. The court just said that they couldn't be copied wholesale, in violation of the copyright law.

The hypocrisy? Once again, slashdot, and the bulk of it's community, are foaming at the mouth over copyright law. The same people that would scream bloody murder if someone ignored the GPL, and created a forked Linux, using proprietary, non-disclosed modifications. The same laws, that say that Linux, and all derivative works must remain open source, protects "closed source" material like these building codes from being freely distributed.

If you expect copyright laws to protect the GPL, you should allow others the same protection for their works. And that means that they are allowed to choose how open to make their IP. Just like some have chosen to release under the GPL, others have not.

For free actually

[unicorn]

Just pop on down to the library, and the poorest among us can read them for free.

How...

[unicorn]

was this made more difficult than necessary? Anyone that had any interest in the rules had every opportunity to read them. At no time did anyone involved say that these were secret rules, that only the priveleged few could have access to.

I fail to see how this case is serving to undermine any kind of order.

And just because there is a process for the state to exercise imminent domain, doesn't mean that they should exercise it at every opportunity. A power like that need be used sparingly, if at all. Or else the govenment devolves into a complete tyranny. Nobody is served by a government that capriciously takes whatever it wants from whoever it wants at will.

Re:How...

[MentalPunisher2001]

It was made more difficult than necessary. Picture this, what if you COULDN'T get the documents from your local library or wherever, but could still get it mailed to you if you sent a self-addressed envelope to the local offices and had to wait 10-12 weeks for processing, and when you were done, you'd have to ship it back (2 weeks max, of course). We are not in the 19th century, we have before us new technology which permits fast and efficient exchange of information. Why should that be ignored?? Because somebody wants to sell their copy of the law?? You keep dodging that arguement and only maintain that the library has a copy. Fuck that, it is a law I'm expected to abide by, it is a public law and thus should be nothing but public. The US is traveling down a slippery slope, and I only hope YOU realize what you are subjecting your children and perhaps yourself to. You are selling your soul to fucking capitalism. Your arguements are transparent and worthless, they are like houses made from thin paper, thin green paper. The utter materialism of this age rivals those Roman times mentioned in an earlier post. It seems as though society as we know it will never rest until it succeeds in trampling and exploiting its own freedoms while its people attempt to create a new way to reach the upper class. The falseness drips from your post, a brew of your lies and some truth which you use to lend it some credibility. Damn, I feel poetic, I should write some haikus or something.

Outsourcing

[unicorn]

Yes, I do think the government should outsource law-making.

I certainly don't want the average politician deciding building code standards. Would you want to live in a house architected by George Jr, or Al, or Bill Clinton?

And no mistake was made at all. If you make it so that an organization like this can't make moeny off it's intellectual property, then the government would be forced to hire this organization, or one like it, to create the same documentation. And everyone in the jurisdiction would be paying up front for something that they don't necessarily need.

Personally, I wouldn't willingly pay an extra dollar in taxes, just to have this be a public domain document. I'm not building anything, and if I was, the $300 is a normal cost of business.

It was made marginally more difficult at best.

[unicorn]

And in the process, since the government didn't have to pay up front for the complete rights to the document, they weren't forced to squeeze the population at large for the money to pay.

It's nice that you started dragging out all these hypothesis, about what if they made it harder... but they didn't. The information was available.

I'm not selling my soul to capitalism at all. I'm merely supporting the decision to outsource for an extremely reasonable fee, a function that the govenrnment wasn't really qualified to perform anyhow.

Stop, and think

[unicorn]

"goverment should not be allowed to pass into law a text which is copyrighted by a private entity"

Why not? In this particular case, the government in question chose to allow a third party to generate the law for them. I would say that the only valid thing to object to in this case, is the elected officials letting someone else do their work for them. And I'm not sure that's even a valid complain. Governments have always needed outside experts to help with the governing. I'm not sure that I want my local elected officials writing the building codes. The average politician isn't really qualified.

"if a government does pass the text into law, quoting the law publicly, on line, should not be construed as infringement."

Again, this goes to fair use. He didn't "quote" the law. He copied it wholesale onto the web.

"citizens should not have to pay money to obtain a copy of a law they are obligated to follow"

They are/were not obligated to pay at all. The information is available for free, via libraries and at the appropriate government offices.

Freely available

[unicorn]

They were freely available. At any time, you could go to a library, or other govenment offices, and read away. Made photocopies for your own use, etc.

If you really want someone to complain to, complain about the local lawmakers in this case. When they passed these laws, they should have arranged the rights to go over to the local government, for an appropriate fee of course. Then they could have been freely available, as widely as anyone could want. Of course, the organization that generated the documents, would have needed to be paid for their work, just like any other subject matter expert that the governemtn might contract with. So the community at large, would pay increased taxes, so that a small group of people (building contractors) wouldn't have to pay individually to read the laws. I'm not sure that I want my taxes going up, for a purpose like this.

Re:Freely available

[ebrandsberg]

How do you know that the laws only apply to the building contractors? Who is to say that the law doesn't have a rider on it that says that everybody living in the buildings that are built to this code don't owe a fee to the drafters of the law for guaranteeing a safe building? You don't unless you read the law, which you need to be able to get to understand. Law needs to be open to EVERYBODY to insure that those that the law applies to can actually follow the law. Without it being open, people won't know the laws that apply to them, and can't follow them.

Who Owns the Law

[mattkime]

So, who wants to find a way to take this to the Supreme Court?

It just does not make sense that someone could own the law. The implications of this do nothing but place unreasonable restrictions on the individual. I think it is reasonable to pay $300 for a book on building codes, but one should have other options. This creates a definite financial gain to be made by getting your text made into law. Imagine if Microsoft's End User Agreement became the standard software liscense. It would be concievable that MS could profit off of every piece of commercial software sold.

Additionally, by allowing law to be copyrighted, it restricts discussion of law. If I want to put up a website critical of the building codes and need direct, verbatim quotes, I sure as hell won't get permission to use the building codes directly.

What about laws released under usage liscenses? Could one own the usage liscense while making the law public domain? Does the GPL need to be GPL'ed? :)

True, making all government laws may reduce the amount of money laywers are making off of them. Damn...I'm trying to be sympathetic, but I just can't get there!

Re:Who Owns the Law

[_ph1ux_]

Additionally, by allowing law to be copyrighted, it restricts discussion of law. If I want to put up a website critical of the building codes and need direct, verbatim quotes, I sure as hell won't get permission to use the building codes directly.

FUCK THAT. PERIOD. I would like to remind people of CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. I WILL NOT pay for a law. NEVER.

My father owns a large contracting company in california - and I always thought it was lame that he had to pay for every little thing, like codes, code inspections etc..

This is a very good foundational level example as to the the reasons why the (earth-based) human race will never get beyond civilization level 0. (based on our current progress)

Hopefully you understand what I mean by that.

Re:Who Owns the Law

[Sparr0]

anyone charging $750 for a BOOK is sure as hell making a profit.

Nope, NOT Only in America...

[llywrch]

Sorry, the problem of access to what the laws say is a problem as old as the Romans: the plebians constantly were in agitation over the fact that -- until the Middle Republic, the laws were not written down, & unless you knew the proper legal formulas, one could not legally sell or buy real property or chattel, sue for injuries, defend oneself form lawsuits & all that other good stuff.

So who knew what the law was for all of this? They were the patrician class, also known as the ruling class.

Another example is land law in the UK. Until the 19th century, British law required a landowner to prove title back to the days of the Norman Conquest -- simply to provide work for solicitors, who made their living researching titles & keeping copies of medieval deeds.

If I knew Continental Eurpoean history bette,r I could probably cite a few examples from there, also.

Knowledge of the law was a privilege that the ruling classes have fought to keep ahold of. And one reason why a degree in law has been an advantage in promoting oneself into the upper middle class, at minimum.

Geoff

Re:You want a BAD law?

[DavidTC]

Um, was this law, perchance, passed before Massachusetts joined the United States?

-David T. C.

Re:You want a BAD law?

[DavidTC]

Is $300 dollars nowdays equal to one year in jail? I thought it was more like $500 dollars for a month.

And, yeah, they were one of the original colonies, but that doesn't mean they don't have laws from before joining the US. In fact, only places that existed before joining the US have laws from there, so that's basically the colonies, and Texas, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico, all of which were independent nations that joined the US. I probably forgot a few there, so them too.

Technically, this law would have been constitutional until the...14th (?) amendment passed saying that the first 10 amendments applied to the states.

-David T. C.

Political Funding resource?

[afniv]

So Republicans and Democratics can charge for copies of laws they pass and use that for campaigning?

~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"

Good grief.

[Slarty]

Not to be off-topic, but did anybody else notice that although the story had *nothing* to do with Microsoft, the submitter managed to stick an anti-Microsoft reference in there? The "Microsoft-is-evil" message has been fairly well received; it doesn't need to be inserted in *every* story. That's just annoying.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[Brian See]

Well, in this case, the state government didn't WRITE the buidling code -- they just adopted the code.

So, the code, written by SBC, is still an "original work of authorship" subject to copyright protection.

Take court decisions, for instance. The text of the decision, written by the judge, is not subject to copyright. But the page numbering of certain editions, from, say, West Publishing, are copyrighted by the publisher. So someone can copy the text, but can't cite to the page numbers. Sounds crazy, but that's the state of the law, which is what is giving (other) legal publishers headaches.

This is not legal advice. If you need legal advice, see a lawyer, not /.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[Brian See]

I stand corrected; I wish I could edit the parent post.

I'll chalk up my confusion to a conflict in the circuits. The Eighth Circuit, in West Pub. Co. v. Mead Data Cent., Inc., 799 F.2d 1219 (8th Cir. 1986) is in conflict with the Second Circuit in Matthew Bender & Co. v. Hyperlaw, 158 F.3d 693 (2d Cir. 1998).

Further, it's not the first page (for parallel cites) that's being fought over; it's the star pagination to the internal pages. Talk about splitting hairs.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[Brian See]

In the case of many publications submitting material means that you hand over copyright. e.g. letters to a newspaper. Maybe unconditionally maybe only if they publish it.

Actually, I think you're giving the publication an implied license to republish your letter (or create derivative works from it by editing it and then republishing it). For instance, I own the copyright on this post, but by hitting the "Submit" button, gave /. an implied license to publish it, put advertisements on top of it, etc.

Due Process and the Internet

[Brian See]

This case isn't about ignorance of the law.

According to the Fifth Circuit, Vreeck (the acccused copyright infringer) could have gone down to the department of public works during business hours and asked to see the code. Or he could have gone to the local library and look at the book there.

I think this case is a lot more important (and complex) than some /. comments seem to indicate. Specifically, the courts need to ask themselves, does the ready availability of access to information raise the bar of due process?

The oft-quoted John Perry Barlow phrase, "Information wants to be free" should be restated for the courts: "Does due process require this information to be freely, instantly available?"

Re:Due Process and the Internet

[ameoba]

Seems strikingly similar to a poll-tax.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Brian See]

What if your city office had a webserver? [etc.]

I think you're missing the Fifth Circuit's point. The Constitution requires "due process of law". "Due process requires that the public have notice of what the law is so that the people may comply with its mandates." (From Vreeck decision.)

According to the Fifth Circuit, "due process" access to the building code requires, at a minimum , avaiability "for inspection and copying at the city offices in towns where they have been adopted".

So, if the laws weren't available for inspection, then there would be violation of constitutional rights.

Anything above and beyond the constitutionally required "minimum", however, is gravy. Domated webservers, etc. would certainly aid in dissemination, and presumably the city would be free to enter into whatever licensing agreements it desired. While it would further disseminate the law, it's not required by the Constitution, at least according to the Fifth Circuit.

I think what's important is where we set the minimum bar for due process -- and whether we recognize whether technological advancements can raise that bar.

This is not legal advice. If you need specific legal advice, consult with a lawyer, and not /.

Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Brian See]

The acutal case is Veeck v. Southern Building Code Congress Int'l, 241 F.3d 398 (5th Cir. 2001). (Link is to Findlaw version.)

It's a 2-1 decision from the 5th Circuit. The due process part of the decision appears to turn on the fact that the panel felt that no one was being denied access to the text of the code itself. The Fifth Circuit panel stated that "due process requires at a minimum that the codes should be available for inspection and copying at the city offices in towns where they have been adopted". However, Veeck admitted that the codes were available during times when city officials were available. So, I guess we want to ask ourselves, is 24-hour, online access a part of due process? Before the Internet, how many people had such ready access to the text of laws?

Also note that the Ninth Circuit has held that that the American Medical Association did not lose the right to enforce its copyright when use of its promulgated coding system was required by government regulations, and the Seocnd Circuit upheld the copyright of the "Red Book" projections of used car valuations...

This is not legal advice. If you need specific legal advice, consult with a lawyer, and not /.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Polo]

"due process requires at a minimum that the codes should be available for inspection and copying at the city offices in towns where they have been adopted"

What if your city office had a webserver?

Could you donate a webserver to your city office?

Could you take a cdrom burner to the city office?

What about the Paperwork Reduction Act (read the goals)

What about RMS coming up with a couple "GPL" laws... GNU/Building code, etc...

I think there was also a similar case with westlaw owning all the law references.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[thogard]

The guy has lots of options under both fair use and I think I would make a strong point that any law is in the public domain by act of the goverment.

Note that the US goverment is unique in not allowing the goverment its self to have a copyright. A copyright is a work created by named persons and the goverment doesn't count. This gets tricky since a book published by the British goverment is not copyright under US laws and can be copied but that same book can't be legaly copied anywhere else in the world.

Maybe the ALCU might be helpful on this once since they have much more $$$ than the EFF.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[aufait]

that the codes should be available for inspection and copying at the city offices

Isn't that a violation of copyright law? Are city officials supposed to aide and abet these kind of violations?

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[aufait]

I have read the opinion, but not the dissent (yet). It appears that the judges placed a lot of weight to the following facts:

1. the plaintiff did not try to obtain a copy from the local government. He only tried libraries and book stores.

2. He obtained a copy of the law directly from SBCII, not his local government.

I wonder if the outcome would have been different if the plaintiff had gotten a photocopy from his local government and scanned it into his computer to put on his web site.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[aufait]

The impression I had after reading the opinion was the the majority were determined to rule in favor of the SBBCI and were using any pretext to do it.

For example, they talked a lot about how Banks (the SC ruling that said court reporters do not own copyright on judge's opinions) did not apply because the reasoning in that case was that the opinions were created by paid government employees (judges).

However, the disent pointed out that there was a second reason why the SC ruled the way it did: the public's interest in knowing and reading the opinions. The majority totally ignored that question.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[1010011010]

According to the Fifth Circuit, "due process" access to the building code requires, at a minimum , avaiability "for inspection and copying at the city offices in towns where they have been adopted".

Suppose I sit in the office with my laptop, which is a webserver with wireless internet... broadcasting the text of the law. Would this be "copying at the city office?"

- - - - -

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[shadowRider]

I agree that under current law the guy doesn't seem to have much of a case, since the information was publicly available at city offices. But expectations about access to information are rising and this will soon seem like an unreasonable burden on the public. Why should I have to take a day off work to spend at the county office, photocopying every code I might concievably need, instead of quickly looking up what I need to know on the Internet in the evenings when I need it. At the very least, local governments should require the the copyright holder to allow city offices to maintain the information online. I'm sure they could still manage to sell a few copies of the hardcover version.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Kjella]

Oh, so I don't need to know the whole law, just as much as I can copy under fair use? Thanks for clearing that up ;)

Kjella

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[ameoba]

Stop me if I'm wrong here, but, as part of the case, didn't they have to site the original work, thereby making it PD? Kinda like the situation w/ that one Scientologist document (the Fishman doc?)?

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Karl_Hungus]

1. the plaintiff did not try to obtain a copy from the local government. He only tried libraries and book stores.

Is this Texas town some Libertarian La-La land where the libraries are run by private, for-profit companies with no public accountability? It seems to me that getting a local code from a public library would count as "obatin[ing] a copy from the local government."

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[mikethegeek]

So, to (badly) quote the much missed departed Douglas Adams, this moronic judge ruled that the only access to LAW we are entitled to is:

"On Display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinent in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[ragefan]

...except for a bit of financial backing ive never seen a public library significantly related to the local govt.

that's like saying except for a bit of financial backing, i've never seen a [Fire|Police|School] department significantly related to the local govt.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[CaptainStormfield]

I suspect that the copying in question was not wholesale, but rather copying of limited portions of the work, which would (probably) constitute fair use.

This is not legal advice, and IANAL. If you want legal advice, /. is not the place.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Sparr0]

ive lived in quite a few parts of the US and except for a bit of financial backing ive never seen a public library significantly related to the local govt.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision

[Sparr0]

i doubt your [fire|police|school] department is so loosely related to the local government. they are paid for, ruled, and staffed by the government. libraries are usually privately run with a bit of funding help

Re:How Can this be

[RAruler]

You'd pay by credit card, so they not only know where you are, but how fast your going. This goes into a huge database, which helps the government track your whereabouts at all times, and helps to promote billboard ads.

Don't worry, i'm sure theres a EULA on the road, that you accept by placing your vehicle on it. I mean, the EULA is in your best interest, the Government made the roads for you to drive on, they should atleast have the guarntee that you won't try to reverse-engineer the process of road making. Thats a strictly controlled process, and has strict regulations as defined by the Building Code Laws. But you wouldn't know that, as it can't be published freely.

---

Re:Well...

[no-s]

If the law is not for dissemination, it is not the law.

Re:Even better

[damm0]

Ha! I used to work in a copy place.. usually we would use that line to get out of copying something that would be a pain to do.

"We'd love to make a single copy of 'War and Peace' for you, but we can't because it is copyrighted. However, feel free to make use of our self server copiers.."

Re:"But i didnt know it was illegal ..."

[Sloppy]

Posts like this make me think 5 just isn't high enough.
---

Re:This is how you create a tyranny...

[Sloppy]

I bet Valenti, et all are kicking themselves at this very moment for not thinking of this idea when they sent the DMCA to be rubber stamped by their bought congress and president...

What makes you think they didn't think of it?

DMCA says you may not unscramble "without authorization" (of the copyright owner, it is believed). Look at all of your DVDs. Do you see any hint that you have been authorized to unscrambled them (which is required for watching them)? Look in the manual for your licensed DVD player. See any hint that you've somehow been indirectly authorized to watch the movies? Nope. At best, you might find out that the manufacturer has made some kind of deal with DVDCCA. That's certainly not the same as you having a license from MPAA or the movie's copyright owner.

Whenever you watch a CSS-protected movie, you don't have any way of knowing whether you are breaking the law or not. It doesn't matter whether you're using Xine or a licensed Sony player. And our representatives unanymously passed with law. Valenti is laughing his ass off.

---

I love their lawyer...

[NMerriam]

Veal, the Southern Building Code Congress attorney, noted that three years ago the Office of Management and Budget directed all federal agencies to incorporate privately developed regulations "whenever practicable and appropriate" to cut the government's cost of developing its own standards.

"The people who are involved in this case, on both sides, I think are people who are strongly interested in what's for the public good," Veal said.

"It's just a matter of different people having different ideas of how the public should be served."


Their lawyer's final statement seemed oddly familiar.

Then I remembered -- "To Serve Man".


---------------------------------------------

The Letter I wrote to my Congressman and Senators

[The Cunctator]

I'm extremely troubled by the recent 5th Court of Appeals decision (Veeck vs. S. Building Code Congress International Inc., No. 99-40632) that, in short, rules that the public does not own the law.

The decision allows companies to enforce copyright to prevent free and unfettered dissemination of the law, if such companies have had a part in writing the law. (Which is a practice I find in many ways distasteful, and fear that it is becoming ever more rampant, as evidenced by the recent bankruptcy bill passed by the Senate.)

This is evidently not an issue with which we can trust the courts. I am hoping that you side with the vast plurality of legal scholars who find this and the previous district court opinion appalling and incredible.

As this nation moves into the information age, it is welcome and crucial that the apparatus of the United States government is available online-- from e-mail address of senators, to the text of the laws that govern the land, to the voting history of our representatives (which is, in fact, not readily available from any of my elected federal representatives).

It is terrifying to think that the laws of this nation are controlled not by the nation but by private companies. From the San Diego Union-Tribune "Public laws owned by the public? Think again, copyright rulings show" Kathryn Balint, May 13, 2001

"By its very nature, the law belongs to the public," said Malla Pollack, associate professor of law at Northern Illinois University. "For some reason, the U.S. courts do not seem to take seriously the public domain."

"Every time I bring up this case to other academic professionals, they all say that such a ruling is impossible. But such a ruling happened."

She thinks the case could end up in the U.S. Supreme Court because, she says, it raises fundamental issues about due process.

The way things stand, Pollack said, citizens have no choice but to pay a private organization to get a copy of a law they're required to obey.

"Basically, government is agreeing to allow a private party to make as much money as it can by picking its own price and selling copies of the law to people who need them." --- I sincerely hope that you, the New York delegation, the House Democrats, and all elected officials will stand against this affront to the public domain, and vile threat to our democracy.

Don't let the Supreme Court decide this issue for our nation; take action.

A constituent.

--

There is a slight difference...

[lazlo]

"It's all the same," Veal said. "They've done the creative work, and now someone says, 'I ought to be able to take it because it's there.' "

Well, not quite. Napster or no napster, if I don't know the words to the latest N*Sync song, men with guns will not come to my house and take from me my inalienable rights. It's not that I should be able to take it because it's there, it's that I should be able to take it if I'm required by law to know it.

It looks like a great deal for the organizations that write these things. They get to print these things and sell them without having to worry that they're not worth the price that's being asked. If the latest {insert your favorite band here} cd goes on sale, but they decide to sell it for $500 each, most people will decide not to buy it, because it's not worth it. In this case, people can't make that decision, because they have to buy it. In this particular case, people who build buildings have to buy it or go out of business.

It's also a great deal for the governments that adopt these laws and codes. They get to levy a tax on everyone that doesn't show up on any budget.

The only people it's not a great deal for are us. We just get screwed every 18 inches in compliance with a building code we have to pay an arm and a leg to see.

Extortion in a captive non-competitive market.

[Skapare]

There is valueable research involved in these various codes. If these codes were not prepared in advance, governments would have to carry out expensive research to determine technical specifics to write into these codes. Multiply that cost (millions of dollars) by the huge number of jurisdictions (conservatively tens of thousands), and you end up with a tax expense in the high billions to possibly beyond a trillion dollars. Obviously that is not something that would be acceptable.

If all the jurisdictions got together and pooled money proportionally and shared the costs of carrying out this research, obviously the costs would be way less. But this isn't what happened.

Instead, there is a business model involved that fools taxpayers into thinking they are getting something for (nearly) free because the governments are not charged much (a few copies they have to buy) to adopt these codes. But the taxpayers actually are charged even more, overall, through commercial costs passed through from businesses that have to buy these overpriced copies. And that doesn't count the pricing people who want to express their 1st amendment rights to argue that flaws exist in proposed laws (the code).

There are two parts to the cost. One part is the cost of copying to which I will add a reasonable profit margin for a copying operation. The other part is the distributed cost of the research, that is, the whole research cost divided by the number of sold copies. Beyond that is excess profits. How can we know if there are excess profits or not?

Even the music industry is not this bad. While there is a "monopoly" on the ownership of a specific piece or performance of music, there is also a statutory rate for legally copying music which you can arrange to get a license for through the Harry Fox Agency (this applies to the composition, not a specific recording, and the rate is a bulk rate for mass production, not single copies).

And unlike music, which I can elect to totally ignore or boycott, I cannot do the same for laws. So this is particularly bad.

What we need is for some kind of statutory rate structure that allows others to make their own copies of the "composition work" involved in the code. The basic share cost of the original and continuing research still needs to be paid for, but without such a system, that is something that would be paid for directly by governments, anyway, in proportion to their applicable size, so IMHO that's where that part of the cost should be paid. This still allows governments to get quality research, and people to be able to have copies of what the law is at a fair and reasonable price for the copying, and prevents someone from extorting excess profits from the public because the public isn't given a choice either of who to buy copies from, or to opt-out of using the code.

Re:Only in America...Laws of the Land??

[Teun]

Glad it's different in most of Europe.
Here in The Netherlands the text of the laws is public and can be copied at will.
A law student ran into trouble when he published the law books on the net, a court made it clear the comments that were included in the book don't belong in the public domain.
So the chap removed the add-ons but was still able to publish the pure law-texts.

As said; if it's to be the Law of the Land that I am expected to follow, it better be public!

In Austria laws are published online

[rgottsch]

The chancellors office publishes the laws (searchable!) on http://www.ris.bka.gv.at.

What happens in America with the intellectual property rights and stuff (region coding, dcma) gives me the creeps.... But when I hear that they even discussed to put a fee on every harddisc because something could copyrighted could be copid onto it, but copying itself should be illegal and is technically stopped - sometimes I fear where the world will be going (especially when I hear those people say: hey, they have to make money somehow, don't they?)

Re:How Can this be

[spravoy]

OS folks, we are getting a little carried away with our model. As soon as the legislature writes the law it will enter the public domain. Meanwhile the lawyers have an incentive to draft either lobbyist inspired or scholarly inspired model laws. This is a good thing. It is as if the legislatures are the OS project managers for law. Now you have done it! You made me say something nice about legislatures and lawyers! But just because you have an OS hammer don't hit everything with it.

Didn't ESR have the same problem ... ?

[LL]

... with the Halloween documents? Because they were copyrighted by Microsoft, he deliberately structured them as commentary (annotations). Given that governments usually release draft versions of bills for public commentary, I would say historical evidence is on their side. The only situation where it might be improper is if they misrepresent the source or deliberately alter the text. What I think people might object to is deliberately copyrighting a document with the intent of never releaseing it (ie using the legal protection as a tax-payer supported veil) or barrier to revision. In this case whistle-bblower or anti-competition legistlation might take precendence.

The other approach is to treat the passed law as a fact. Sports commentary have established that a fact is common/public (though the database schema can be protected) and decomposing the document as a series of legal facts and rearranging hte order (sorted by relevance) might be another way around it.

When the spirit of the law gets twisted by the letter, then it is time to start worrying about the system. A tyrancy of compelled behaviour (whether criminal case, civil code or ecnomic conduct) is no less for being promoted by a group than a dictator. Given that special interests are much more motivated to pass/support/write bad legistlation, it seems that greater transparency is needed, not less.

Quid custodit ipsos custodes?

LL

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[gbroiles]

"works from the government specifically excluded from copyright.." is too broad.

The (federal) copyright law specifically excludes works created by the federal government. It doesn't address state government creations, or private creations which are subsequently adopted as law.

Also, the federal government can still hold copyrights - it has to get someone else (like a private corporation) to create the work, and then transfer the copyright to the federal government.

I'm not saying I think the situation described is reasonable - it's not - but it's not easily wrong, as a matter of legal precedent.

Law is public domain

[PantherX]

Nuff Said.

These 'judges' should be forced to give their kickbacks to charity before they are fired and deported.

surely there's *some* non-greedy rationale?!

[pangloss]

Of course on the face of it, as described, the idea of copyrighted laws seems ludicrous. So I'm trying to understand the underlying rationale.

If profit was the only motive, it seems like a pretty roundabout way of making money: organize a group to draft legislation and push it through a legislature so that you can sell print and electronic copies of the text. Although USD6.7 million over ten yeas isn't too shabby. Well, for the sake of humor you might say this constitutes a better business plan than most recent dot-bombs, but honestly, it doesn't sound like the kind of work you get into for the sake of profit.

If laws are private property and you have to pay to view the laws, then you have a basis for arguing that ignorance of the law constitutes innocence. Homelessness laws aside, poverty isn't a crime in the U.S. yet, but instituting a direct financial barrier to access to the laws seems to force ignorance of the laws to people below a certain income level.

It's already the case that the sheer number of laws on the books, court rulings, precedents, etc. at least indirectly creates a financial barrier to knowledge of the laws insofar as you essentially have to be able to afford to consult a lawyer about any non-trivial legal concern.

The argument that without these private interests, we would have "dilapidated, outdated building codes, because nobody would do it for free" seems to suggest some motive for the public good/safety--i.e. passing laws. Yet if that's the intent, why betray that intent by introducing barriers to knowledge of these laws? The argument seems inconsistent. Furthermore, the argument suggests that when there's no financial interest directly at stake, laws don't get passed. While the cynical might make a good case for this, it is nevertheless the case that we have laws for the benefit of public health and safety that, if anything, run contrary to coprporate financial interests. So what's the rationale? Or is it just incoherent/inconsistent?

The most amazing thing to me is this has withstood a federal court challenge and appeal.

Re:surely there's *some* non-greedy rationale?!

[mpe]

Furthermore, the argument suggests that when there's no financial interest directly at stake, laws don't get passed.

Except when passing laws quality should matter far more than quantity.

On The Positive Side

[Alex Pennace]

The body charged with enforcing this particular code can't distribute copies of the code to its employees without paying extra fees to the copyright holder. Ignorance may not be an excuse, but it helps if the cops are just as clueless as you are.

Re:On The Positive Side

[mikethegeek]

"The body charged with enforcing this particular code can't distribute copies of the code to its employees without paying extra fees to the copyright holder. Ignorance may not be an excuse, but it helps if the cops are just as clueless as you are."

That's not the point. The fact that the LAW that you are required to obey is copyrighted IP means that a PRIVATE corporation can charge or not charge, at what amounts and in what situations, at their own WHIM for access to a LAW...

That's scary stuff.

Re:Only in America...

[SEWilco]

Woman: "Here's a copy of my GPL'ed laws, and you'll note that my version specifies that Speed Limit signs are in units of MilliParsecs per Hour. I was well under that speed."

Re:Well...

[SEWilco]

If the law cannot be distributed freely, this might explain why I couldn't find a definition of Minnesota highway markings and sign standards. MN Statute 169.06 merely states that the Department of Transportation commissioner will adopt a uniform manual, and excludes that manual from several regulations -- including public notice publication. I wonder how many other such things are tucked away.

This Conversation Is Illegal

[SEWilco]

And because the DCMA makes it illegal to break a protection system, any part of this conversation about changing this copyrighted law is illegal.

Re:This Conversation Is Illegal

[ncc74656]

Judges making stupid rulings like this, in total contempt and defiance of the Constitution that makes this country a Republic, not a Monarchy, need to leard to FEAR and respect the People they serve. They are in office as servants of the Law, the highest Law being the Constutution. The Law is not THEIR servant.

Judges today take after Humpty Dumpty. To them, the law means whatever they say it means, no more and no less. Consider this quote from the local paper today:

Thank goodness our judges, like those in California, no longer have to take an oath of office binding them to "protect and defend" a Constitution written by such men as John Jay. Think how inconvenient that would be.

Vin Suprynowicz, "The rights of juries take another hit," Las Vegas Review-Journal, 13 May 2001

(The rest of the column is recommended reading if you're interested in the rights of jurors to judge the law, as well as to apply it. These rights and others are under attack from the Men In Black.)

Re:This Conversation Is Illegal

[bobthemonkey13]

the intended purpose of the 2nd Amendment becomes obvious

Yeah, let's set up them the bomb. For great justice.

Sorry, just had to say it :-)

Re:This Conversation Is Illegal

[mikethegeek]

"And because the DCMA makes it illegal to break a protection system, any part of this conversation about changing this copyrighted law is illegal."

When that starts happening, then the intended purpose of the 2nd Amendment becomes obvious...

Judges making stupid rulings like this, in total contempt and defiance of the Constitution that makes this country a Republic, not a Monarchy, need to leard to FEAR and respect the People they serve. They are in office as servants of the Law, the highest Law being the Constutution. The Law is not THEIR servant.

Re:Kafka anyone?

[remande]

Who can find Kafka's estate?

Here's the plan. Find the actual holders of Kafka's copyrights on his works, then get them to hold a patent on screwing the government by copyrighting their laws (he shows prior art, no?). Then we can use Kafka's patent against the stupid law-copyright!

Re:How Can this be

[Flower]

And what about the 65mph limits on I-94 in WI or the 70mph limits on I-65 in TN? IIRC, some states like TX have laws which state that you can go any speed on certain highways as long as there is no other traffic on the road during the day.

Weighing in late

[Salamander]

There are a lot of arguments out there based on how ideas can't be considered property. I'd like to suggest an alternative: if it's property, it's subject to eminent domain. It is *clearly* in the people's best interest for the text of a law to be completely open and available to all. If the government is entitled to seize individual citizens' physical property to build a highway, it's sure as hell entitled to seize this little piece of intellectual property as well.

The issue is not that the people who wrote these documents never had ownership, it's that they can and should be stripped of ownership for the public good.

Just when you think it can't get any worse...

[einTier]

it does.

Is there anyone who doesn't think copyright is out of control now? Anyone? Bueller?

Let's see, here's something I wrote. I think it should be law. I copyright it, submit it, and now it is law. However, since I own the copyright, I won't let you read it, not even for one million dollars. Nope. Just hope you don't violate it. I'll be sure to let you know when you do.

The precident here is terrible. One, we shouldn't be rubber stamping laws for corporations. Two, if you do write a law, submit it, and it becomes law, then you lose all rights to that intellectual property. Period. Laws are written by (theoretically) and property of the state -- which means it belongs to the people. Your tax dollars paid for it, you should be able to use it as you see fit.

I wonder why every law professional contacted is weighing in on the side of the guy who posted it on the internet in the first place. Maybe because letting someone else own the law is dangerous and pretty much against everything this country stands for?

Re:Write to Congress!

[Platinum Dragon]

Except that there is a quirk in the US legislative process in that it is possible for laws which violate the US constitution to come into existance.

Hence, the reason I threw the world "constitutional" into that statement. If the Constitution is a document placing limits on the powers of government, then an unconstitutional law is one where the government breaches the rules laid out for it in some way. This should invalidate the law, making its application impossible. Therefore, you can be morally (though maybe not legally) justified in violating such a law - it may even be your moral duty in defense of the Constitution to fight and violate that law, otherwise the Constitution as a check on the power of government is rendered toothless.

Re:Write to Congress!

[Platinum Dragon]

I agree that this whole thing is stupid, but noone is granted a "right" to know the laws that they live under.

Uhhhh, what?

You have a responsibility to follow constitutional laws as passed...but you don't have a corresponding right to know what those laws are?

That would make ignorance of the law a valid excuse, which it is not.

A just legal system does not put people into a position where they can be punished for rules they don't have the right and opportunity to know about.

Reminds me of a .sig I saw here once...

[Platinum Dragon]

Welcome to America(tm). Home of the Free(tm). We invented freedom, and we copyrighted it. You may license it for a small (enormous) fee. - mensch.

Thanks to the heavy private, closed, corporate influence in and of groups like WIPO, the WTO, and the drafting of documents like FTAA outside of public view, this is becoming a frightening possibility. Private groups controlling laws you're forced to obey, in effect taking the powers of the state with none of the checks or balances, and making a good amount of money from it, is the kind of nightmare depicted in Kosh-knows-how-many speculative fiction works. How fun to watch it unfold in front of our very eyes.

I wonder if the term "RICO" could be apply here...it certainly seems like a lot of these "non-profit" (HAH!) organizations are running rather lucrative rackets.

Re:Reminds me of a .sig I saw here once...

[OmegaDan]

What really amazes me is how willing people are to undermine their principles to make a few $$ ...

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[Platinum Dragon]

IIRC, isn't everything from government SPECIFICALLY excluded from copyright, as it's all done using the people's money? That applies to state governments, too, who write the building codes...

According to the article, the building organization attacking our hero wrote the law and just handed it to the state to pass.

Private groups writing laws and handing them to legislative bodies for rubber-stamping...where have we seen this take place before *coughDMCAcough*? Only this time it looks like the body wants to make a buck off the law people are expected to follow.

This also creates a situation where a powerful private group with certain interests can draft a law heavily in their favour, get it passed by friends in a legislature, and keep it hidden from public view in order to keep people from seeing what their tax dollars went toward passing. Secret bodies of law? Rules that benefit a privileged few while no one else can see they exist? Sounds like paranoid fantasies, but this story goes to show such bizarre thoughts aren't too far from the realm of possibility.

That's it. I'm going to hide under the bed. Call me when the nightmare's over.

Re:Only in America...

[acidrain]

Yes, only in america. Thank god I'm not an American. Now if only we can keep them out of the WTO and shut down the FTAA the rest of the world will be spared this kind of IP relared braindamage...

Re:Write to Congress!

[penguinboy]

Quoth the Ninth Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"

Or, the rights or the people are not limited to those explicitly listed in the Constitution.

Re:government services

[travisd]

You don't draft a law anyway - Bills are drafted and then after review can be voted into Law.

So who else has "I'm just a Bill..." from Schoolhouse rock going thru their heads right now?

And Behold...

[supernaut]

The pigs, looked across the table, at the men, and the men looked across the table at the pigs, and saw, there was no difference between them.

Orwell's prediction has come true. Welcome to animal farm.

At this point, I am seriously thinking of emigrating to another country, and renouncing my United States allegence and citizenship. Its a sad day, when, we as a nation have come full circle, and have become no better than the tyranny we revolted against in the first place to found the nation.

I would hypohothesize that, our beauracracy has become so dense as to have collapsed upon itself, and the black hole has formed.

I was born, and raised in the United States, but more and more, being a citizen has become more of an embarrasment than a credit to myself as a person.

*sigh*

Re:Even better

[mpe]

Even better, I'll write up a law, copyright it, and get it passed. My law will repeal all copyright laws. Talk about a paradox.

The tricky bit is getting it passed. Maybe you could have it added as a rider to something completly unrelated... e.g. "bill for paying legislators more money".

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[mpe]

This also creates a situation where a powerful private group with certain interests can draft a law heavily in their favour, get it passed by friends in a legislature, and keep it hidden from public view in order to keep people from seeing what their tax dollars went toward passing.

Even if it does become publically available after its been passed there is still a problem. Since it's going to be a lot harder to get something ammended after it has been passed.
Also does not US copyright law have various "fair use" provisions which could be applied here.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[mpe]

Well, in this case, the state government didn't WRITE the buidling code -- they just adopted the code.
So, the code, written by SBC, is still an "original work of authorship" subject to copyright protection.

In the case of many publications submitting material means that you hand over copyright. e.g. letters to a newspaper. Maybe unconditionally maybe only if they publish it. Maybe the same criteria needs to apply to submissions to a legislative body.

Re:Write to Congress!

[mpe]

You have a responsibility to follow constitutional laws as passed...but you don't have a corresponding right to know what those laws are?

Except that there is a quirk in the US legislative process in that it is possible for laws which violate the US constitution to come into existance. With the only way of getting rid of them being to convince the US supreme court.

Re:Write to Congress!

[mpe]

The Constitution places restrictions on the government, not the rights of the people.

How many of the current US population understand that. As opposed to thinking that the US constitution (and the various state constitutions) are about either restrictions on people or even government giving rights to people.
Having a written constitution still requires people to understand what it actually means.

Re:The Government should buy the copyright

[mpe]

The government purchases the copyright after the law has been passed (so that they aren't buying every oddball guideline that any thinks up) with taxpayer money, and releases it to the public domain.

Actually this should happen when the proposed law is submitted. It's rather harder to ammend a law after it has been passed.

That way the people who devised the guidelines are reimbursed for their effort,

Why should they be paid for acting, most likely, out of self interest?

Re:need for reorganization

[mpe]

What happens in my eyes, is laws are made with a few scenarios taken into consideration, and as times change, the laws remain the same, never ever being reconsidered and often coming back to the limelight in some funny fashions.

It is actually the job of a legislature to review existing laws and deal with those which are obsolete. Another way in which you get bad law is lobbying by special interest groups (who even if they are honest tend to have a rather warped perception.)

Re:Isn't This About The TX Legislature Screwing Up

[mpe]

it is also true that, if SBCCI invested a great deal in the development of those codes, they should get some kind of economic reward.

Why? If they spend X amount on an advertisment should they get Y back in increased business? "They put a lot of work and thus deserve a reward" is the mentality of "corporate welfare". Anyway it is highly likely that they are submitting this kind of thing because they think it will help their business.

Did the legislature screw up by incorporating copyrighted materials in legislation without getting rights to that copyright first?

If a newspaper can make it a condition of sending letters to the editor that they get the copyright then a legislature can make it a rule that anything proposed as legislation is placed in the public domain.

Re:Just doesn't make sense

[mpe]

If something becomes a law it HAS to move into public domain

Maybe it has to move into the public domain before it can even be considered by a legislature as a potential law.

Re:The ruling was correct

[mpe]

The state agreed to enact a law which it knew was copyrighted. Why should they be allowed to violate the copyright just because they used the document in a law?

"Copyright" is a creation of the state. Thus you could argue that it's impossible for the state to violate it in the first place. Also in the case of the USA copyright exists for a specific purpose "to promote the progress of science and useful arts". Dosn't say anything about promoting the function of government.

Re:Write to Congress!

[mpe]

otherwise the Constitution as a check on the power of government is rendered toothless.

Kind of tricky where the same political parties are involved with legislative, executive and judicial arms of government.
Then you need to rely on the citizenship for enforcement, which dosn't appear to work too well.

Re:to hell in a ledger-book

[mpe]

The problem is voters who think they can use the ballot box to elect themselves a free lunch and don't pay attention to what the weasels they elect are really doing

One important factor is that elections only happen every few years. But lobbiests (either corporate or special interest) can operate all the time.

Re:Write to Congress!

[mpe]

Or at least, proposed laws must be reviewed by citizen juries in advance of their acceptance as laws.

This is the intended purpose of legislative assemblies.

The jury should write down what they believe the intent of the law is

Other criteria would include if it can be used practically or if it is useful at all..

And professional lawmen should be disqualified from sitting on those juries.

As opposed to making up a large proportion of them...

Re:The Government should buy the copyright

[mpe]

For the same reason YOU believe you should be paid for your efforts at work. You earned it.

In any kind of capitalist economy simply beleiving one's work has a value is something of a non starter.

I don't believe they should be offered outrageous sums of money for them, but when the model codes are accepted by the governing body, a fixed compensation should be set and paid in full.

Only if they were contracted to do the job in the first place.

It is too obvious to bring up FreeNet.

[YoungHack]

If there ever was a legally questionable but morally correct use of FreeNet, I would think that distribution of copyright-protected laws would be a candidate. It's unfortunate that it would be likely to fall from the database due to the basic nature of FreeNet (unaccessed stuff gets deleted eventually).

What could be a more fundamental protection of (American) freedom than to let people know what the law says?

Re:This is really old news . . .

[werdna]

We may not ultimately disagree, except that I don't see how this could possibly bolster the pro-DMCA position or compromise the Junger/Bernstein doctrine. Let me clarify how I understood the dissent:

A statute, by its nature, is limited by the precise language used to set forth its provisions. Even punctuation can substantively determine how a court would apply the cannons of construction, based upon the text. Scalia wrote an entire monograph on his textualism, where he holds that the meaning of the law must be determined primarily, often solely, on the structure of the text itself.

Thus, the text *IS* the law, and vice-versa. It is not merely that it binds us, because the idea of a law can ONLY be expressed, under much modern jurisprudential views of statutory construction, by reference to the text itself.

In this sense, I think the judge mixed up some of his copyright principles. it is not so much that the expression has become an idea, as it is that the expression merges with an idea once the text of the statute becomes the law.

Does this help at all?

Nonsense . . .

[werdna]

I've had to do research regarding business codes when I started practicing law. All I had to do was go to the office of the county clerk -- it was all there.

This is really old news . . .

[werdna]

This article discusses the February holding of the Fifth Circuit, and is just the latest incarnation of decades of case law addressing copyrightability of technical building codes. Similar cases dating back into the 80s have emerged from the Second, Eighth, Ninth and Eleventh Circuits.

My point here is not to argue that the result is a good one (I dislike this on public policy grounds for reasons similar to those laid forth elsewhere in this thread), but to suggest that this is hardly "the beginning of the end," or some new malevolence from the recently copyright-hungry courts. Since the 80's, this is how the law has shaken out on building codes. Over more than twenty years from the earliest opinions in this thread of which I am aware, the sky has not yet fallen.

For a really interesting (and I think sound) discussion of why the case has merit and failings, I suggest reading the opinion and dissent itself, but particularly the dissent. They can be found here. I am most impressed with Judge Little's argument that, once enacted into law, the words of a statute no longer serve just their expressive purposes, but are transmogrified into a functional idea. Clearly a bit too metaphysical for the Courts, but I anticipate that someday this notion may hold sway.

In the meanwhile, building contractors have hardly had difficulty getting their hands on the building codes. They are readily available, both at the county clerk's office and from the original standards organizations.

If, in fact, the parade of horribles had happened -- that is to say that the codes were not available to those who required them, republication would clearly have been fair use.

Re:This is really old news . . .

[thogard]

Builders do have a problem getting their hands on "current" building code just after it changes. It can take years for the info to get out in the work place. As a test of this, call up your local building inspector department and ask if you have to have a "low voltage electrical license" to install network cable. If they are using the code that 99%+ of the US is using, the answere is yes and a normal electrical license won't work. Ask them how many people have the correct licnese. You may find that no one does except some old guys at the local telco.

Re:This is really old news . . .

[leifb]

Hm. This bodes ill for the DeCSS free-speech argument. The equivalent argument would be that compiling source renders the source itself functional, and thus free speech protections do not apply. It's only one step away from stripping copyright because of an author's intent. The idea that a text's use can change the nature of a text is deeply disturbing. What a mess.

Actually, I had the opposite thought: the results here could bolster the case for DeCSS (or vice versa).

Here, the courts say that a piece of functional content may still retain sufficient expressive value to be guarded by copyright.

In the DeCSS case, the courts ruled that because the source code was functional, that it did not have sufficient expressive value to warrant 2600 publishing it or linking to it. (And for my money, that's one of the scariest parts of the DeCSS case.)

Not that our legal system forbids contradictory rulings, but you'd like to think that if both these cases made it to the Supreme Court in rapid succession, that the lawyers in one case would point this out.

Re:This is really old news . . .

[weisberg]

I will respond to three points: This is just the latest incarnation of decades of case law addressing copyrightability of technical building codes. The only case the parties could find dealing with building codes came out of the Second Circuit and reached the opposite result (held that they were probably in the public domain, but remanded the case to the district court to give the code writer the an opportunity to develop a record in a full trial of the issue before a final decision was made. Building Officials & Code Adm. v. Code Technology, Inc., 628 F.2d 730 (1stCir. 1980). BOCA settled after that ruling, apparently to avoid a final ruling of the court. FWIW, I question the signifcance of characterizing the codes as "technical." All law is "technical." These also happen to be "criminal" and can result in demolition of non-conforming structures. In the meanwhile, building contractors have hardly had difficulty getting their hands on the building codes. They are readily available, both at the county clerk's office and from the original standards organizations. We are not just talking about contractors, but anyone interested in construction. Nor, are we simply talking about these particular laws. There is a major trend toward private authorship of laws, all of which are argueably covered by the decision. The court gave no bases for distrinction. Furthermore, "difficulty" is in the eyes of the beholder. The Fifth Circuit panel majority didn't think the $300 cost for the set of 5 codes made access difficult in Anna and Savoy, Texas, (whose codes are the subject of the suit) which don't have libraries, and Pete couldn't get a copy of the codes at city hall when he went there to look at them. AFFIDAVIT OF PETER VEECK IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFF'S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT. If, in fact, the parade of horribles had happened -- that is to say that the codes were not available to those who required them, republication would clearly have been fair use. Perhaps, but making it a fact issue means that the person posting the codes wouldn't know if he was violating the alleged copyright without going through a federal lawsuit to determine the issue. In other words, this is an empty promise. Eric Weisberg Attorney for Peter Veeck

Re:This is really old news . . .

[weisberg]

My formatting got lost in this post. Here is my response, again, but omitting the items to which I was responding. 1. The only case the parties could find dealing with building codes came out of the Second Circuit and reached the opposite result (held that they were probably in the public domain, but remanded the case to the district court to give the code writer the an opportunity to develop a record in a full trial of the issue before a final decision was made. Building Officials & Code Adm. v. Code Technology, Inc., 628 F.2d 730 (1stCir. 1980). BOCA settled after that ruling, apparently to avoid a final ruling of the court. 2. FWIW, I question the signifcance of characterizing the codes as "technical." All law is "technical." These also happen to be "criminal" and can result in demolition of non-conforming structures. We are not just talking about contractors, but anyone interested in construction. Nor, are we simply talking about these particular laws. There is a major trend toward private authorship of laws, all of which are argueably covered by the decision. 3. The court gave no bases for distrinction. Furthermore, "difficulty" is in the eyes of the beholder. The Fifth Circuit panel majority didn't think the $300 cost for the set of 5 codes made access difficult in Anna and Savoy, Texas, (whose codes are the subject of the suit) which don't have libraries, and Pete couldn't get a copy of the codes at city hall when he went there to look at them. AFFIDAVIT OF PETER VEECK IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFF'S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT. 4. Making copyright a fact issue in each case means that the person wouldn't know if he was violating the alleged copyright without going through a federal lawsuit to determine the issue. In other words, this is an empty promise. Eric Weisberg Attorney for Peter Veeck

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[csbruce]

The solution is pretty simple. In order to be enacted as law, the originators must surrender any copyright claims to the material in question. You'd think that legislatures would have enough brain power to figure something like this out, but who knows; we can't be sure where their paychecks are coming from. Industry standards organizations must work something like this also.

As American as lawsuit lottery

Re:Unfortunately not unique to US.

[Jherico]

This happens other places too. Have you tried to get a copy of an ISO document lately? It's stupid, but you have to pay 100's of bucks (or swiss francs) to get a copy of ISO standards.

How did this get modded up? Use your head. ISO is not any government's agency and is not funded by anyone's taxes, nor are standards docuements the same as laws. I have no problem with ISO charging whatever they see as a reasonable fee to maintain themselves.

This is getting ridiculous

[prisonercx]

Every time I turn around and read the front page of Slashdot, I see another article about how corporations and the government are screwing us out of more of our basic rights. Free dissemination of upcoming legislature? How can they take that away under the guise of copyright? Then I read about the Gracenote fiasco and how they are suing Roxio over switching to a competitor's database. Maybe I'm just angry and misinformed, but isn't the whole concept of the free market based on supplying the best product at the lowest price? It used to be that if you lost a customer because of your service, you improved your service, you didn't sue them for switching.

It's cute and funny to make fun of people outside of the US for making comments about the legislature we let slip through the cracks, but it is very easy to see their perspective. I'm a college student, a Comp Sci major, and I have to worry about whether I will be liable for the code I create, even if it can be potentially used for malicious purposes. That's assuming the contract I signed with my company makes it my code at all.

When will this insanity end? At some point, we're not going to be able to wake up from this bad dream; we might even be at this point now. If so, will someone please tell me what I can do about it? I see my future being buried in a morass of commercialism far worse than what we have now. How long is it until the government is the corporations in everything, including name? I'm honestly very scared for the direction I see this country taking. What can we, as concerned American citizens, do to shore up the last few freedoms that haven't been ripped from us?

Flame me for being a newbie, whatever. I don't care. I'm just so pissed off at seeing well-intentioned people bending over for corporations who play us like pawns. We, as a citizenry, need a line in the sand to defend. I pose this question to /., some of the most technically informed people on the Internet: When do we start fighting back?

PrisonerCX

Re:This is getting ridiculous

[bitchazz]

Wow...mod this up. I find myself acting exactly as Courageous describes. So much passionate indignation, and yet I can barely be bothered to vote, or volunteer my time to any defenders of the ideals that I hold dear. Unfortunately, that is how most of us geeks work. Damnit....being a spoiled American kinda sucks in a resigned desparation sort of way.

Re:This is getting ridiculous

[Courageous]

Revolutions are usually enacted by a very small
segment of society, and, as the historical record
will show you without any shadow of a doubt, are
far more likely to usher in tyranny than any kind
of freedom.

While I can appreciate you don't like the fact
that U.S. business interests are politically
active and politically effective, the extent to
which these interests are contrary to the
wellfare of the people only occurs because of
the _complacency_ of the people. By and large,
the people around you are happy with their
government.

In contrast, you hold your minority view to be
of superior value than all the plebes around you.
Disregarding the merits of this for the moment,
that's quite a bit of self-importance wrapped up
in "an ugly sack of mostly water," (with apologies
to _Star Trek_).

I've spoken many times with people who have
opinions as charged as yours. Inevitably, they're
always filled with verbal spit and vinegar, but
in truth, they are as complacent as the plebes
around them. Bluntly, they generally _are_ one
of the many plebes around them.

Which is to say, they've never written a paper
letter to a Congressman, they've never called
their Congressman, they've never visited in
person, nor volunteered for a political campaign.
The list of "nevers" for these would be
Revolutionaries is miles long.

It seems that proposing violence (to wit:
revolution) is an easier path for them than
successful political activity. You'd think that
with such passions, they'd just go buy a banner
and set up a table outside their local Vons.

But no. Forget the mere pen. Forget words. Get
guns. Yeah, that's the ticket.

C//

Re:This is getting ridiculous

[mikethegeek]

EXCELLENT POST!

Let me reply to some of your well made points:

"Maybe I'm just angry and misinformed, but isn't the whole concept of the free market based on supplying the best product at the lowest price? It used to be that if you lost a customer because of your service, you improved your service, you didn't sue them for switching."

This is very true, that is, if the USA were truly a free market. It isn't. In a free market, the best product wins, and anyone who wants to and can do it can create a better product. The USA is NOT CAPITALIST. Neither is it a Republic. Rather, it became the worst of all governments, a DEMOCRACY (mob rule) and the mob empowered the government to "make them happy" at the expense of freedom and individuality. Democracies don't last long and become dictatorships quickly. The USA is rapidly becoming the most insiduous of all tyrranies, one with all the "auspices" of a Republic, but none of the moderating influences "court diplomacy and honor" of a true outright monarchy.

What we have in the USA today could be best described as "Corporate Socialism", where we have a few corporations given exclusive rights to control certain industries. Unlike the USSR and China, where Marxist/Lenninism was imposed by the government taking over industry, here in the US it's happening backwards, with industry taking over the government...

"If so, will someone please tell me what I can do about it?"

Call and write your Representative and Senators. God knows your local corporations are. If that doesn't work, and crap like this is allowed to stand, then the ultimate recourse is to take up arms against what is a tyrranical (and according to the Constitution and Declaration of Independance), ILLEGAL government.

That may sound extreme, but it's a thought that MUST enter into the equation at this point. A government that doesn't fear revolutin is a fearless government, one that fears not to impose it's own tyranny on the citizens, and cares not about obeying the laws (Constitution) or even in accepting the outcomes of an election.

Well, the policy is...

[brianvan]

I believe any works produced by the government are exempt from copyright, patent, trademark, etc...

While I know that this law was submitted by a group of private citizens, once it enters law, it was drafted (somehow) by legislators into an official document, making it a government work, making it non-copyrightable in that form. Otherwise, we have two catastrophes of justice here:

1. Groups who compose laws then have unreasonable control over the distribution of the information contained in the law.

2. Private citizens are then directly submitting laws for approval to legislature, in the absence of elected officials whose job it is to compose our laws.

This a "what SHOULD happen" case, not "what DOES happen" case. But certainly, the Supreme Court would not uphold this kind of copyright - after all, law is supposed to be public record, and I can't see the government getting trapped into this kind of mess. After all, then shouldn't we be paying royalties to the RIAA and the MPAA out of taxes for every reference to the DMCA?!?!

Welcome To SBC Sector...

[Steve B]

I see that you are reading the rulebook. The rulebook is Ultraviolet clearance. What is your clearance, citizen?
/.

Intresting Question

[aufait]

Found this buried in the footnotes of the opinion:

When Veeck received the 1994 codes from SBCCI, he realized that Denison had adopted the 1988 version of the building codes.

Now for the importent question: Does SBCCI still sell the 1988 version of their code? If not, then it is impossible to get a copy of the law as enacted.

Re:Way off base, folks.

[aufait]

Well, you are all free to write an open source building code

Totally misses the point of the case and the dissent. Copyright protects expressions of an idea, not the idea itself. It does not protect facts.

In law, the changing of a single word may mean the difference between winning or losing a case. Therefore, the wording of a law is a fact that should not be protected by copyright.

I am personally happy that people are being paid to think about these things

Fine, then charge the state or township a one time fee when the law is adopted. Don't give a government enforced monopoly to someone so that they can control who has access to the letter of the law.

Re:Make it legal, regardless

[aufait]

What about filabusters? It is a common practice to read from books when they run out of original things to say.

Re:Like I said ...

[aufait]

Read the decision of the 5th circuit court http://regionalweb.texoma.net/CR/ then make your comments.

Maybe you should have read my reply before responding to it. I said that I read the opinion and the dissent. (Plus, I read the lawyers exchanges over the law at the cni-mailing list.

Now, will you specifically point out where I am "way off base".

Re:How Can this be

[darkonc]

You'd pay by credit card, so they not only know where you are, but how fast your going.

Then they charge you with using a cellphone while driving.

Oh. You didn't pay for a copy of that law, did you?
--

Self-referential laws

[cainem]

My proposed law:

"Shall be illegal to quine" shall be illegal to quine.

Re:Write to Congress!

[Desert Raven]

>>This is a no-brainer win for a Congressman, so they will probably take it up. <<

You think so? I certainly don't agree. Remember that most of your congresscritters are LAWYERS. They're the ones who put us in this situation. They also get a lot of money from people who very much want things to stay the way they are. And, last of all, lawyers don't make any money when the system is simple and fair. Changing this law would be a direct conflict of interest for the majority of Congress.

I've always thought the US legal system was flawed in one particular way... Imagine a game where the citizens represent the players, and the lawyers represent the referees. The referees are paid by the players for both the length of the game, and the number of calls. Now, imagine that the referees could re-write the rules any time they wanted, including during the game. Now you've got a game where it is the referees' best interest to make the game last as long as possible, and have as many calls as possible.

What do you call a lawyer who graded his own tests in law school?

Your honor.

Re:It is valid under the 14th amendment

[1010011010]

Where are the libertarians on this one?

Busy posting the 2nd and 14th amendments, and the Declaration of Independance. :)

As a Libertarian, I say, make as many copies of any law you want, and disseminate it any way you wish. And if they don't like it, don't forget your right to self-defense. Remember and defend this nation's principles of self-governance and the rule of law; America specifically rejected the rule of man in favor of written, accessible law known and approved by the people who must live under it.

In other words, as a Libertarian, I'd be handing out copies on the street corner, as well as on my web site, and telling those folks "fuck you; either I get to hand it out, or it's not the law, you pick" when they came to complain about it. :)



- - - - -

Re:Write to Congress!

[1010011010]

Perhaps it should actually be illegal for lawyers to write laws. Or at least, proposed laws must be reviewed by citizen juries in advance of their acceptance as laws. And the review should be blind -- i.e., without lawyers explaining what the intent of the law is. The jury should write down what they believe the intent of the law is; and their written description of the intent is what should be used to adjudicate cases that are subject to that law, should it be accepted. And professional lawmen should be disqualified from sitting on those juries.

In a free republic, any citizen should be able to understand and know the law without the help of "experts" and "professionals."

- - - - -

Re:to hell in a ledger-book

[1010011010]

"A Democracy will survive only until its citizens begin to vote themselves money."

The use of the government to make money is not capitalism. It's more like kleptocracy.


- - - - -

Re:Write to Congress!

[1010011010]

Theoretically that [citizen juries] is who we have elected to represent us.

Yep. I hear "Theory" is a nice place -- everything works there. But, juries adjudicate the law after the fact; why not have them pass judgement on it beforehand as well?


- - - - -

Re:Not that different from what we have now

[1010011010]

Bottom line: How can you ask people to obey laws they don't understand?

Perhaps juries should review the law to see if it is comprehensible. And, rather than the judge instructing them in the law, the jurors are given a copy of it. They then write their own interpretation of what it means. Then that is given to the judge, who must use it to adjudicate that law. In other words, the law is what the citizens understand it to be.

Or, rather than "event-driven" review as stated above, every law is reviewed every 10 or 20 years ot make sure it's still wanted, and to make sure the language is comprehensible to average people.

- - - - -

Guilty

[underwhelm]

Done that--in fact it's usually the only time I tell people copyright bars me from making their copies. Unless there's someone else around, since I'm in a position of authority and could get in a heap-of-trouble.

It makes ordinary people feel quite satisfied when I look left, then look right, and say sotto voce "I can do it for you... but don't tell anyone."

underwhelm, actively subverting copyright and promoting fair use in contravention of chickenshit corporate policy since at least 1999.

Re:Even better

[underwhelm]

Odd that she wanted it copied, since she already had one in her posession. I try not to think too hard about these things.

Even better

[underwhelm]

As many of you may know, I work for Kinkos, where we have a restrictive copyright policy (it has to be more restrictive than the actual law so we don't get sued *again*).

A lady came in yesterday wanting to copy the MN State Driver's Manual for her daughter, but I couldn't do it because it had a copyright notice in it. Now, I'm under the impression that the government doesn't own copyrights (everything the gov't owns is in the public domain), but this must have been prepared by someone else.

So I had to tell her no, and show her how to use the self-serve copiers so she could make copies (not of the copyrighted material, of course. *I don't know what in the world she actually copied, I hope she didn't break any laws!*).

We wouldn't want these people to know how to drive, would we? It's better this way.

Re:Even better

[Sodium Attack]

Now, I'm under the impression that the government doesn't own copyrights (everything the gov't owns is in the public domain),

Unfortunately, that only applies to the federal government. State and local governments can hold copyrights.

Re:Write to Congress!

[Tackhead]

> Now, imagine that the referees could re-write the rules any time they wanted, including during the game.

Mornington Crescent!

in germany this could not happen

[real-q]

here we have written in the law that everyone who wants to copy, cite and whatever is allowed to do so since everybody should know the law, therefore everybody has the right to use it

Re:Holland: Nobody has copyright over the law

[radja]

Strictly speaking.. you're right. At the moment..
There is a potential problem though, namely the fact that government does not provide complete lawbooks, or complete words of all the laws. Only new or changed laws are published, and it is left to the publisher to collect them all. Basically, the single laws aren't copyrighted, but the complete set is. I'd give you more info, but if you speak dutch, you may want to read this article (from 1998) which is a lot clearer than I'll ever be. Yes... it surprised me too :(

//rdj

How Can this be

[Gildenstern]

How can this type of thing be allowed to happen. If laws aren't published how would anyone ever know that this exist. It is so wrong to think that we as good citizens are suppose to follow laws that we can't even ready.

Any court that upholds this kind of thing must be funny in the head

Re:How Can this be

[scoove]

What's next - speed limit signs with nothing but a toll-free number?

"Call now and mention this sign to learn how fast you may legally go - only $2.95 per call!"

And they say ignorance is no defense...

*scoove*

Re:How Can this be

[Colbey]

There is a EULA, in fact, or at least in Pennsylvania. I just got my new car registration card in the mail, and I had to sign it. I didn't read what I was signing, but I'm confident that I did in the past...

--Colbey

Re:How Can this be

[www.sorehands.com]

You have a misunderstanding here. They published a copywritten work, the law. They do not lose a copyright when publishing...it prevents you from republishing w/o permission.

I would equate this more to a standards comittee, similar to what RAMBUS got smacked for.

For the record, I find the court ruling that a law is copyrightable is nonsense.

Re:How Can this be

[BitwizeGHC]

This reminds me of the example, oft-cited in anti-Microsoft arguments, of Ford cars being licensed for use only on Ford roads...

Re:How Can this be

[MisterE]

IANAL and don't play one on TV either but I ran into this same issue several years ago while doing legal research.

As I recall the law itself is not copyright... just that particular printing of it. If you get the actual law passed and published by the original legislative body then you may publish it to your heart's content... it belongs to the people (even if it does not apply to them... different thread).

Companies like West Publishing take that law and print it in book form. The add annotations, cross references, page numbers, etc. These "additions" (including font face as I recall) are what make it "copyrightable".


Don't delay - learn to fly - start TODAY!

Re:How Can this be

[bonzoesc]

What if you rent your vehicle like somebody wants you to rent software?

Tell me what makes you so afraid
Of all those people you say you hate

Re:How Can this be

[GungaDan]

"Any court that upholds this kind of thing must be funny in the head"

This assumes that the court (comprised, as it often is, of good citizens) is permitted to read the "law." If that's not the case, then they can uphold or overturn all they want, they're still a bunch of dirty, stinking infringers.

Re:How Can this be

[pcidevel]

And what about the 65mph limits on I-94 in WI or the 70mph limits on I-65 in TN? IIRC, some states like TX have laws which state that you can go any speed on certain highways as long as there is no other traffic on the road during the day.

I think someone was pulling your leg. I've spent many an hour on Texas Highways and never saw anything that remotely sounds like this. I am willing to doubt that you would ever find a texas highway without other traffic on it, if nothing else there will be tons of trucks on almost every Texas Highway.

Re:How Can this be

[gle]

Ever heard of default values?

like 55 mph on the motorway for instance in US.

Re:How Can this be

[The Monster]

It can't be. This is so simple: The laws enacted by Congress (and state legislatures), and the regulations promulgated by various agencies under those laws, do not become active until they are published. Every county commission or city council has a designated Official Newspaper in which it must pay (under a contract that gets them reduced rates, of course) for such publication before an ordinance can take effect.

Not only the laws and regulations themselves, but every word of debate that goes into them is free as in speech (with rare National Security exceptions) because of the Freedom of Information Act (and state Sunshine laws). This is not just a matter of a law that is easily amended. There's this thing called the, um, Constitution:

[Art. I, 5 2] Each house shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgement require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either house on any question shall, at the desire of one-fifth of those present, be entered on the journal.

Add to this the injuctions against ex post facto laws or bills of attainder, and some other language best left to the pros (IANAL), and you've got a strong basis for the presumption that the text of a law is effectively in the public domain.

Re:How Can this be

[mikethegeek]

"Before the printing press and written law, people could claim ignorance of the law, and that was a defense. "

This has actually never been true. It would be too easy to claim ignorance, and thus be exempt from laws.

However, in the past, there were far fewer laws than today (some 65,000 state and federal laws are added each year to a total legal code that is now millions of laws in size).

Denying people the freedom to dissiminate in the manner of their choice the laws they live under is a FLAGRANT violation of at least half the Constitution. The 1st, 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendments in particular. The freedom of petition to redress your "grievances" to the government is also in the Bill of Rights, but how do you do that if you have to get a license from the group that is likely your political opponent?

This madness is one reason why the powers of and durations of patents and copyrights were limited in the Constitution, but those limits have largely been ignored, particularly with the passage of the DMCA (which effectively turns a copyright into a perpetual secret patent), and the Sonny Bono copyright extension act, which makes the duration of copyrights practically forever.

Re:How Can this be

[mikethegeek]

"How can this type of thing be allowed to happen. If laws aren't published how would anyone ever know that this exist. It is so wrong to think that we as good citizens are suppose to follow laws that we can't even ready."

Not to mention that in a court, IGNORANCE of a law is not a defense...

"Any court that upholds this kind of thing must be funny in the head"

The court system in general these days is funny in the head. It's not just the laws that are coming from corporate lobby groups these days, the JUDGES do also. Most federal judges used to be private practice lawyers (in big swanky firms), and it's the corpers who mostly employ them.

What doesn't make sense to me is that a LAW can both be copyrighted AND be a LAW... It seems contradictory. If the law in question was the legally copyrighted IP of those clown, then the judge should have thrown it out.

Re:How Can this be

[Bobo the Space Chimp]

IANAL but it seems like as soon as it starts getting debated in committee or on the floor, or stuffed into a proposed bill (or regulation) it should immediately become public domain.

Re:How Can this be

[ryants]

Well, look on the bright side.

Before the printing press and written law, people could claim ignorance of the law, and that was a defense.

Then the printing press came along, and laws were written down and widely disseminated, and ignorance of the law was no longer a defense.

Now that laws have owners (apparently), we get to go back to step one... since laws can't be freely disseminated, ignorance could become a valid defense again.

Here are two apropos quotes:

• "History doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes" -- Mark Twain.
• quid est quod fuit ipsum quod futurum est quid est quod factum est ipsum quod fiendum est nihil sub sole novum -- Ecc. 1:9-10

Ryan T. Sammartino

Re:How Can this be

[lha2]

They call that a "lease".

Re:How Can this be

[weisberg]

You are correct. The court offered the following Catch 22: ignorance might be a defense if you can show that it was unreasonably difficult for you to find a copy of the law ("reasonableness" being a fact issue in each case, meaning it will cost you more in attorney's fees than the price of the codes to even present the issue to a court. However, it granted the copyright claimant a summary judgment despite the fact that there were no libraries in the towns for which Mr. Veeck posted the codes, and city hall was closed on the two occasions he tried to get copies of the law.). I am Peter Veeck's attoney, btw.

Derivative works

[Pseudonym]

As a matter of interest, if the local government tries to amend the law, can they be sued for making an unauthorised derivative work?

need for reorganization

[joq]

The entire legal system everywhere, not only the United States needs an exhaustive overhaul. Has anyone taken a trip to Dumb Laws?

In Cali:

• You are forbidden to spit on the ground within 5 feet of another person.
  
• It is illegal to own or sell "Silly String".
  
• It is illegal to posses, own or raise roosters.
  
• This is considered disturbing the peace.
  
• Cars are the only item allowed in a garage.
  
• It is illegal to curse on a mini-golf course.
  
• It is illegal for a man to beat his wife with a strap wider than 2 inches without her consent.
  
• You cannot bathe two babies in the same tub at the same time.
  
• You may not hunt moths under a street light.
  
• It is illegal to cry on the witness stand.
  
• Toads may not be licked.
  

What happens in my eyes, is laws are made with a few scenarios taken into consideration, and as times change, the laws remain the same, never ever being reconsidered and often coming back to the limelight in some funny fashions.

So should laws be copywritten? Sure only if someone is allowed to copywrite the letters of the alphabet, and that person is paid for someone else's use of otherwise freely available information.

Re:need for reorganization

[SpeelingChekka]

Sheesh .. and they call the USA "the land of the free"?!?

OK, I know someone's going to reply 'these laws aren't enforced anyway'. But in a properly free country it wouldn't be possible in the first place for such laws to be passed. And what about the entire category of consentual (sp?) crimes? In many states it is still illegal to be gay.

In CANADA part of the law *is* copyrighted

[UnknownSoldier]

At least you CAN get a copy of the law. In Canada, the government REFUSES to *officially* publish the Canada Tax Act. See: http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/faq ita-e.html

And since the government holds the copyright on it, no one else can *officially* print it either. So most people are harassed to obey a law that they can't even read officially. At least it's based on "voluntary compliance" (almost sounds contradictory!) so the informed ones can opt out due to Canada having NO law that requires a person to have a SIN - social insurance number (There's a ponzi scheme if I ever saw one.) (The SSN is voluntary as well for Americans: http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Voluntary.ht m )

This is an interesting document showing that the Canadian Federal government has no jurisdiction to collect provincial monies.
http://www.prolognet.qc.ca/clyde/tax.htm

I like this paragraph:

The two documents - the Supreme Court ruling and the B.N.A. Act - have been the basis of his battle, and the only two cocuments he has needed. He has never had the benefit of legal counsel, and has chosen to appear in court by himself. His only evidence has been those two documents. Charges against him have been thrown out of court 22 times. The last time, some twelve or so years ago, Revenue Canada was told that if it ever brought Gerry Hart back into court, that Revenue Canada itself would be charged with contempt of court.

Does protesting an Illegal Tax make one an "illegal tax protestor" ? ;-)

very silly

[samantha]

Laws and regulations are public documents. There can be no limit on the right to publish such a document as long as it is not altered in the copying or misattributed. Anything less is madness.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[Zak3056]

Second of all, for all the second amendment proponents who believe that it exists to prevent the government from becoming too powerful- that is a sham and a lie. There is absolutely no way in hell that even incredibly well armed miltias could oppose the military and political power of the US government.

You seem to think these two concepts are mutually exclusive. I think the historical record on the meaning and use of the 2nd ammendment are rather clear. The fact that any militia attempting to fight the US Army would get it's ass handed to it (without the support of it's local national guard, that is) is immaterial.

Just because the government has usurped more and more power from the people who it obstensibly serves does not change the laws as written 200 years ago.

Re:Write to Congress!

[thopkins]

I agree that this whole thing is stupid, but noone is granted a "right" to know the laws that they live under. Find in the Constitution where you're given a right to know the laws. Many legal arguments like this seem to rest on people thinking they have have "rights" that they don't have.

Re:Write to Congress!

[thopkins]

That's not true. You have no right to drive, because there's no "right to drive" listen in the Constitution. You have a right to go wherever you want though, that is part of liberty.

Credit Reports

[scoove]

Great idea... how about we do it with credit reports?

I'd be happy to license the use of my name, address and phone (plus other information they like to reference) for $2 million per credit reporting agency (after all, they make money off of my data too, so that's sort of a reseller's license).

Folks wishing to retrieve the information from the credit reporting agency could do so under NDA for a similar license fee. Sort of a EULA thing.

"Let's see, Mr. Banker. I owe you $350K for the house mortage, and you owe me $500K for the license. Throw in a Ferrari and I'll call it even."

Re:Credit Reports

[apofex]

hmm. even better. I'll just patent/trademark/whatever my Social Security number.

I could own my university within a week.

Re:Kafka anyone?

[scoove]

I think you're referring to Kafka's "The Trial."

Actually, while "The Trial" is important reading, "The Castle" is even more entertaining/depressing/fascinating. I've seen many dot-com horror stories that seem to have a lot of parallels.

The updated "Castle" would be: showing up for a job one was hired for but only having everyone else being embarrassed for you because you showed up, not knowing you weren't needed since the position you were hired for was cancelled without your awareness.

When you try to contact upper management to clear up the confusion, you'd be shunned by the other low-level employees who were horrified at your arrogance. After all, a new hire who shouldn't even be there in the first place can't just march up to the "senior management floor" without invitation and expect to command their time for your pathetic little problem.

Yes, Kafka definitely foresaw our era.

*scoove*

In Switzerland all laws are online

[Baki]

Just look here (only german, italian and french, the three official languages). As others have said, this is a normality, and it is absurd that the government would not make all laws available.

While the EU is not as "mad" as the USA yet, it is heading in the same direction. I think that all entities that become too large and powerful get corrupt (power corrupts). Therefore I oppose the EU (I'm an EU citizen who fled to one of the last remaining "free" spots).

The Open Source Intellectual Property Project

[dsplat]

Announcing the Open Source Intellectual Property Project. This project intends to copyright everything said, written or done by all of its members. All intellectual property of the project will be licensed under the GPL. We will be particularly strict about enforcing the application of the GPL to all derivative works.

Copyright (C) 2001 The Open Source Intellectual Property Project. This work may be copied and distributed under the conditions of the Gnu Public License.

Re:The Open Source Intellectual Property Project

[WhiteWolf666]

This was posted as a joke, but really is not all that terrible of an idea. While it would never, ever, EVER get off the ground, they idea of an organization that attempted to copyright as much as possible (and why not patent everything too), and then release is all under the GPL.

Yup. I like it.

Re:Slashdot hypocrisy

[dsplat]

Since we must obey the law, it should be accessible to us. Copyrighted material must either lose its copyright when used as the text of laws, or governments must be prohibited from using copyrighted laws.

As for NSA Linux, the NSA would have to violate the terms of the GPL to release their changes in the public domain. You can argue that they should not have been allowed to publish except in the public domain, but it is hard to argue that they should have been allowed to violate the copyright on the various code they modified.

The biggest difference here is that no one is compelled to use Linux. Obedience of the law is not similarly voluntary.

License to ignore the law

[EyesOfNostradamus]

Don't they realize that by condemning Peter Veeck for posting the building code, they are in effect repealing that building code. Here In France, we have a saying "Nul n'est censé ignorer la loi", meaning "Nobody is supposed to be in ignorance of the law". This saying is supposed to forestall the stupid excuse of "But your Honor, I didn't know that this act that I committed was against the law. Honest.".

Now, the accused can prove that he could not have possibly known about the law (because publishing it would have been prohibited by copyright...), and suddenly this stupid excuse becomes a perfectly acceptable defense!

Re:License to ignore the law

[dcollins]

Here in America, the saying is "Ignorance of the law is no defense against it." In other words, it's completely acceptable for someone to have no idea of the law (for whatever reason, we don't care) and be prosecuted under it.

Isn't this fair use?

[MemeRot]

So this group has a copyright on a section of law - good for them. Fair use is allowed of copyrighted material. Couldn't we just argue that any and all free dissemination of any law to the public is in the bounds of fair use? So that they could keep their copyright to let them sell the hardbound books to contractors to fund their work... but that any government or citizen acting as the press has a fair use right to disseminate that work if it's not for profit? They naturally don't want other publishing houses copying the law from the county register and selling it - but incredibly this was actually the point of copyright in the beginning - as an instrument to use to restrain publishing houses - not as an instrument to restrict the rights of private citizens - DEFINITELY not to restrict the right or ability of government to report to the governed about the laws under discussion.

I see this group as being able to use their copyright to keep others from publishing their code (in the traditional for-sale hardbound sense) but don't see that copyright can be used to limit the ability of the press or government to provide the text of the law to the public.

No new system is needed - just the proper reading of the rules and principles we already have.

Fair use limits can fix the problem

[MemeRot]

You say: Copyrighted material must either lose its copyright when used as the text of laws, or governments must be prohibited from using copyrighted laws.

Why? The original point of copyright was for publishing houses to defend against each other. And I think that this group should be able to prevent other commercial enterprises from publishing their code for profit. BUT - the ability of the government to print a law, and the ability of the press or private individuals to freely disseminate a law should be declared part of the definition of 'fair use' when applied to copyrighted laws. Fair use is allowed of copyrighted works. We've all talked about what this means with a cd you buy. But what does it mean with a law? We haven't talked about that. I think it means ANYTHING the gov't wants to do or private citizens who are subject to that law want to do AS LONG AS they aren't making money from it. Copyright is industrial legislation - it was meant to curb theft in the publishing industry. I have no problem with it as applied in its original intent.

Comments anyone?

Only in America...

[Dios]

Hmm.. Why don't we just go back to the days of Kings and Queens..

We have rules, and you can purchase a copy for $19.95 (all rights reserved). Otherwise take your chances and see if you break our rules. Oh yes, lending your purchased legal copy of the rules to somone else is a violation, and you will be fined. (of course, you would have known this had you purchased the rules..)

I've been to Denison, TX (sister city to Cognac, France fyi (thanks Mr. Craig)). Its not that pretty of a city.

Re:Only in America...

[theancient1]

The next step will be to adopt a pay-per-use scheme for laws. In order to read the laws, you'd have to pay a fee. But since the legal firm would obviously want a cut every time someone was charged with breaking the law, you'd have to pay a licence fee if you were planning to break the law, too.

Man: "Hi, I'd like to buy one 'grand theft auto', please."
Officer: "Okay, that will be $19.95. Hey, wait a just a minute... what are you planning to do with a grand theft auto licence?"
Man: "Well I already have one in my reference library at home, but I wanted to have one for work, too. It's illegal to make a duplicate of a copyrighted work, you know."
Officer: "Very well. Here's you're grand theft auto licence."

Officer: "I'm writing you a ticket for driving over the speed limit."
Woman: "I'm sorry, but I don't have a licence for the speeding law."
Officer: "You don't? Well perhaps I should charge you with copyright infringement instead? Where did you get permission to speed? Did you download an illegal copy of the law from Napster?"
Woman: "I was actually using a GPL'ed version of the speeding law. There is no fine for breaking that one, and it's freely available on the internet."
Officer: "What do you mean, GPL'ed laws?"
Woman: "Well since it's illegal to have a monopoly, the government had to open up the law licencing business to competition. Since the licence fees on your laws were so high, I decided to buy someone else's laws."

James Bond had a licence to kill, didn't he? Maybe they were trying to tell us something.

I guess we're going to have to start trading the text of the legal code on Gnutella.

Re:Only in America...

[rtscts]

I'd rather be in Australia where they try to ban any access to any "objectionable"

I should point out that the new laws have zero effect - it's optional. So now rather than going down to the local software joint to buy censorware, they can buy it off the ISP. The user gets to decide whether or not they install it. There's no central mandatory proxy or anything.

Re:Only in America...

[ichimunki]

By all means, don't let me interrupt as you red-bait your way through political discussions. Obviously, as you say, the problem is the citizens, nee voters. If only they hadn't let women and differently-skin-pigmented persons in those damn voting booths, none of this would have happened-- you didn't see this sort of societal decay when only landed white men could vote! Better yet, I'd seriously like to know which governments you think have died after about 200 years of "equality before the law". I mean, once we eliminate all the other potential break-down points like economics, war, disease, etc, I'm sure we'll find that was exactly the sole cause for their extinction.

Frankly, I don't buy this "it's getting worse every day" nonsense. It's not as though the U.S. was once some great bastion of freedom and equality and all that is suddenly eroding into a great police state. If anything, Americans are having an incredibly difficult time adjusting to how much freedom they do have. I mean, look at the way Britney is dressed and tell me things haven't improved!

Re:Only in America...

[Chainsaw Messiah]

That is the real beauty of the US, stupid decisions usually don't last very long, especially when it starts impacting on the public in general.

Then please explain to me Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

4 years (or 8) can seem like an eternity sometimes ..

Re:Only in America...

[mikethegeek]

"there is a bunch of stupid crap going on right now, mostly due to tons of liberal and/or stupid judicial appointments recently, but this will swing back into the rational spectrum in the next few years. That is the real beauty of the US, stupid decisions usually don't last very long, especially when it starts impacting on the public in general"

Will we? Or will the last great "Empire" of Western Civilization, United States collapse at last?

History points towards collapse. No country with the form of government we have, which made the honest attempt to preserve equality before the law to every citizen, lasts much beyond 200 years. In fact, ours has lasted the longest of all such governments.

I see our "citizens" less educated (in civics) than ever. I see more apathy (gimme the new Britney album and let me watch "reality TV" Survivor) type sheepizens than real CITIZENS.

The true weakness of a Republic is in it's dependance on the responsibility of it's citizens. Ever since 1933 (FDR), the citizens of this country have been ever more tolerent of an ever more powerful, invasive, and restrictive Federal Government, so long as it provides more and more "bread and circuses".

We may be past the point where the USA CAN be saved.

Want a great example?

Ask anyone whether they are in favor of eliminating "social(ist) security" for example... And you will be called an EXTREMIST for merely suggesting that. Even though all the evidence in the world proves that doing ANYTHING with that social(ist) security tax OTHER than contributing it to a non-interest accruing government ponsi scheme (that would be illegal for anyone else to engage in) would result in MANY TIMES more money when you retire!

Re:Only in America...

[bryan1945]

Yes, I'd rather be in Australia where they try to ban any access to any "objectionable" (defined by the government) content. Or France, which made Yahoo remove any Nazi auction items (yes, Nazi's bad). Or China, where all internet content can be censored by the government.

You get my point? Yes, there is a bunch of stupid crap going on right now, mostly due to tons of liberal and/or stupid judicial appointments recently, but this will swing back into the rational spectrum in the next few years. That is the real beauty of the US, stupid decisions usually don't last very long, especially when it starts impacting on the public in general.

Re:Only in America...

[apofex]

you're almost right. They wouldn't sell it. They would license it. "I'm sorry, you have version 2.3 of the code of feudal law. We've upgraded to 2.3.1 and your copy is now non-functional. But, you can 'upgrade' your copy for 18.95 (that's $1 off the cover-price!) and be a law abiding citizen once again"

Re:This is how you create a tyranny...

[Cyno]

I'm thinking of emigrating too. But I can tell you one thing. I would DEFEND myself with my GUN. I refuse to recognise laws that are copyrighted by corporations or that I believe are against my constitutional rights (laws I have read and abide by). If the government wishes to take action against me for laws I do not recognise they can expect me to defend my rights with my gun until they pry it from my cold dead fingers. I only regret I have but one life to give.

legislative record?

[LMariachi]

How does any law get passed without appearing in the record of the legislative body in question? (the Congressional Record, for instance) These records are in the public domain, and all laws voted on must appear in that record, otherwise you could wind up with something like "All those in favor of what we discussed over lunch say aye." So how do you vote on a law without the law appearing in the record and thus being in the public domain?

Incidentally, what happens if a representative decides to introduce a copyrighted work into the record in its entirety? Senators have been known to filibuster by reading the Bible or Moby Dick out loud on the floor -- what if they read Who Moved My Cheese? or Rule By Secrecy instead? Does the copyright effectively evaporate? Does the Senator get sued? Does it fall under fair use, while further reproductions of the entire text would not?

At the risk of sounding slightly paranoid...

[eagl]

This kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME with the US Government. Usually it is pork barrel spending provisions that get tacked onto other legitimate bills that the politicians want to hide from US citizens, but more and more politicians want people to shut up and consent to being governed without worrying about the gory details.

The usual claim is that a citizen's true voice is expressed in the voting booth where he or she votes for their representatives, but a true citizen's responsibility does not end there regardless of what they're told. It is very important to keep track of what your representatives actually do while in office.

This bit about copyrighting public law proposals is dishonest and outright dangerous in a constitutional republic like the United States. Any work or derivative from works done in public service must remain in the public domain. This needs to apply to any document that touches on our systems of government except in clear cases of national security (and then they should be subject to oversight.)

If they want to hide their proposals and bills, they're clearly trying to hide something or gain profit from keeping you ignorant. This is how things work in the corporate world, but it's a dangerous attitude when it comes to government. Fight back, find out how YOUR representatives vote.

Re:Hurts New Urbanism movement

[michaelmalak]

Why don't you assholes mind your own business? Not everyone shares your refined esthetics.

New Urbanism is currently outlawed in most suburban counties. So you are saying that

1. Everyone should be forced to live as you wish to live (in Conventional Suburban Development), and
2. To enforce that, the laws should be kept away behind an $800 door.

Does that about sum it up?

You busybodies have this elitist attitude, that if you can't afford a leafy country estate, you belong in a crackerbox apartment downtown.

Townhomes in Georgetown (DC), Old Town Alexandria (VA), and Bethesda (MD) cost 2x to 4x the price of detached homes in suburban Fairfax County, Virginia. I can't afford to live in a walkable area due to an artificial shortage created by war-era zoning laws.

The developers are just giving him what he wants.

In actuality, developers are chomping at the bit to develop something different. A special law in Fairfax County had to be written to accommodate this development near the Huntington Metrorail station.

Hurts New Urbanism movement

[michaelmalak]

The developer juggernaut has been cranking out tracts of cookie-cutter houses that many don't like, but have to live in because there's nothing else. New Urbanism seeks an alternative that provides for the pedestrian and bicycle. A major way New Urbanists advance their agenda is by promoting "smart codes" to replace existing but antiquated war-era developer codes. Without access to existing codes, there would be no way to loosen ourselves from the death-grip of ugly suburban development.

Re:Hurts New Urbanism movement

[ccmay]

Why don't you assholes mind your own business? Not everyone shares your refined esthetics. You busybodies have this elitist attitude, that if you can't afford a leafy country estate, you belong in a crackerbox apartment downtown.

Joe Sixpack could give a shit about infill and pedestrian malls and bicycle friendly design and all the rest of that communitarian/New Urban bullshit. The average working man wants a detached house, with a little piece of grass for his kids to play, at a reasonable price. The developers are just giving him what he wants.

--ccm

Copyright 1994-2001 Findlaw

[BierGuzzl]

Be careful! start quoting the text of that court case and you might be violatingn a copyright!

Shades of Dilbert

[pne]

So I can't publish what laws I'm living under, because I don't own the copyright? That makes sense, now we just need a legislative body that use them, and we've got a *secret* law.

Reminds me of a story I read in a Dilbert book, where Scott Adams quotes an email from a reader:

<fair use>

Shortly after taking my first job, I submitted a trip report and expense account only to have it returned to my desk because one item "violated company policy." Being a concerned employee, I immediately contacted the soon-to-be-retired career bureaucrat in charge, expressed my contrition, and requested a copy of the company policies so as to avoid another violation. The bureaucrat informed that company policies were secret and not for general distribution, as then "everyone would know them."

</fair use>

So, we're held accountable to the laws but we're not allowed to know them or tell anyone else about them.

(And I always thought anything that was "law" was public domain by default, since it applies to and belongs to everybody.)

Spontaneous Tribute to Douglas Adams:

[niekze]

Seriously. Douglas Adam's really hit the head on the hammer. Compare this passage to the copyrighting building codes :)

"But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody of anything."

"But the plans were on display..."

On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes, yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.' "

Holland: Nobody has copyright over the law

[drnomad]

I don't know about other countries, but Holland has laws of which *nobody* owns the copyright. This was covered by derivative laws or court cases. Now, suppose someone or a few *had* copyright over the law, then it would be illegal to quote that law. Statements like "innocent until proven guilty" you gotta pay for lines like that! Whatever you do don't mention the law. Giving somebody copyright over the law would simply be an impractical situation.
--

Even better

[11thangel]

Even better, I'll write up a law, copyright it, and get it passed. My law will repeal all copyright laws. Talk about a paradox. ;p And the best part. People won't even know that they don't have to buy a copy of it from me until after they already did.

Write to Congress!

[alexhmit01]

You have a right to know the laws that you live under. In this scenario, you have no ability to follow the law because you can't obtain the law.

Write your Congressmen and tell them that this concerns you as a citizen. Explain that you are a voter (list your address), mention your concern on this issue.

This is a no-brainer win for a Congressman, so they will probably take it up. We are pretty well spread on this site throughout the United States, so we might actually be able to bring this to congressional attention.

Alex

Re:Write to Congress!

[shanek]

I agree that this whole thing is stupid, but noone is granted a "right" to know the laws that they live under. Find in the Constitution where you're given a right to know the laws. Many legal arguments like this seem to rest on people thinking they have have "rights" that they don't have.

Read the 9th and 10th Amendments. Just because it isn't in the Constitution doesn't mean you don't have the right (9th Amendment). OTOH, if it's not mentioned in the Constitution, it is not a power given to the government (10th Amendment).

The Constitution places restrictions on the government, not the rights of the people.

Re:Write to Congress!

[shanek]

The Constitution places restrictions on the government, not the rights of the people.

How many of the current US population understand that.

Far too few, I'm afraid. Far too few.

Re:Write to Congress!

[SpeelingChekka]

Maybe I'm cynical, but does "writing your Congressman" every really work? I'm pretty skeptical myself. US law seems somewhat rampantly out of control, if you ask me.

Re:Write to Congress!

[Sparr0]

RTFA. You can go to the library and look up the law for free. only if the library has bought a copy of the law in question, which most do but some dont, so you cant count on it.

Re:It is valid under the 14th amendment

[-brazil-]

Of course, they also have their libertarian-approved right of self defense against your initiation of force by infringing on their intellectual proprty rights. And they have more money to afford better "sef defense"...

Re:It is valid under the 14th amendment

[-brazil-]

Ah sorry, I forgot the most important point of libertarian doctrine: whatever you dislike can be interpreted as "initiation of force" and gives you the right to shoot the perpetrator, while anything you yourself do is automatically not "initiation of force".

Semantics

[yooden]

If you don't like Democracies, just say so and don't use semantic obfuscation tactics typical for totalitarian regimes.

Neither is it a Republic.
Merrian-Webster:
Main Entry: republic
1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president

DEMOCRACY (mob rule)
Main Entry: democracy
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

Main Entry: ochlocracy
government by the mob : mob rule

Semantics

[yooden]

If you don't like Democracies, just say so and don't use semantic obfuscation tactics typical for totalitarian regimes.

A Republic is rule by representative Democracy
Merrian-Webster:
Main Entry: republic
1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president

Absolute rule by the majority *IS* Mob Rule
Main Entry: democracy
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

Main Entry: ochlocracy
government by the mob : mob rule

What?

[mpost4]

If they do not let us know what the laws are, i can only immage what could happen. They make a law making illigal. When some one does they are forced to sign a contract that they will not let people know what the law is, and then gets fined. Ok maybe I am being parinod. But if they do not let people see the law they could pass more outraguse laws.

Re:Three words

[ccmay]

"Well Regulated Militia"

What's your point? I'm a member of the militia and probably you are too. See Title 10, Section 311 of US Federal Code.

-ccm

Hacking the law?

[rao]

Perhaps this presents a way to hack the legal system.

They say given enough monkeys and typewriters it is possible to generate the entire works of Shakespeare.

Similarly, it must be possible to generate laws. Monkeys might actually do better than our elected representatives.

Write a program that generates random laws. Periodically, review the laws to ensure that they're Draconian.

When they try to pass a Draconian law, dig out a copyrighted version of the same and prevent them from passing it.


-R

Re:Hacking the law?

[rao]

Bear in mind that Copyright law protects only the expression of the idea. Not the idea itself. So I don't know how effective this is going to be.

-R

Would that be a 'Drive-Through' EULA?

[Jason Cwik]

"Your driving past this sign signifies your acceptance of the license agreement."

Text of fair use provision in US copyright law

[yerricde]

just as much as I can copy under fair use?

It depends on how much money you have to give to the judge. Fair use under United States copyright law is defined vaguely by 17 USC 107 but severely limited in practice by 17 USC 1201. However, only nine people know what fair use really is.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[zane]

Seriously, these are words to terrify governments. What you describe, is the act of sedition. As per WordNet:

Sedition Se*di"tion, n. OE. sedicioun, OF. sedition, F. s'edition, fr. L. seditio, originally, a going aside;
hence, an insurrectionary separation; pref. se-, sed-, aside + itio a going, fr. ire, itum, to go. Cf. Issue.
1. The raising of commotion in a state, not amounting to insurrection; conduct tending to treason, but without an overt act; excitement of discontent against the government, or of resistance to lawful authority.

In soothing them, we nourish 'gainst our senate The cockle of rebellion, insolence, sedition.
--Shakespeare

Noisy demagogues who had been accused of sedition.
--Macaulay.

Of course, founding a government on the idea that sedition is okay, and in some cases even necessary, is, well, a little iffy to say the least. But that's not to say I don't agree!

I wonder, if you had asked the framers of the Constitution to predict how long it would be until the government they were instituting would be toppled by revolution from within, what would they have said?

---

In that case...

[TheLink]

The city should make available the laws on it's own website.

Visitors can thus make "fair use" copies of pages the law into their browser cache.

Cheerio,
Link.

GPL

[aozilla]

GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 2, June 1991
Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

How can this type of thing be allowed to happen? If the GPL isn't published how would anyone ever know that this exist [sic]. It is so wrong to think that we as free software users are supposed to follow license agreements that we can't even ready [sic]. Any court that upholds this kind of thing must be funny in the head.

Bizarre. Simply bizarre.

[COAngler]

I'm looking at a statute book on my desk right now. It says "Copyright 2000." It struck me as being just a little odd when I bought it. Odd enough for me to call a lawyer and ask him.

In this one case, the copyright is on this specific compilation with the specific annotations. IOW, it's not just the statutes but also the "value-added" material which makes this copyrightable.

A damn good thing too. Otherwise, when I stop someone for DUI I'll need to write on the summons "42-4-1301 C.R.S., copyright DataLegal Publishing, 2001."

But then, that particular book which is copyright and yet open is my state's criminal and traffic codes, all of which were written by a few hundred people in a shiny dome in Denver. Civil stuff doesn't have the same need to make any sense.

Three words

[dcollins]

"Well Regulated Militia"

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[zeugma-amp]

I wonder, if you had asked the framers of the Constitution to predict how long it would be until the government they were instituting would be toppled by revolution from within, what would they have said?

I believe Jefferson is on record as having said about 20 years or so.

Re:God's Laws Copyrighted, Why Not Man's?

[zeugma-amp]

As mentioned above, the work you specify is copyrighted because it is a translation of the origional. If you would like a copy of your own without copyright restrictions on it, you might goto Project Gutenberg and search for "Bible". I did and got 18 hits for copies in a few different languages, and a couple of different versions that are in the public domain. Enjoy!

Re:©©©

[WhiteWolf666]

Now that would be FANTASTIC!!!!

Copyright the copyright laws----

Refuse to release them.

F*ck people left and right.

God....I would give two testicles, a lung, liver, frontal lobe and all four limbs for that ability.

Seems like a job for freenet

[WhiteWolf666]

Seriously. The text of the law (from the cd-rom version or what not) should be released on freenet.

If I have the money to buy the cdrom, I would do this myself

I got thirty bucks -- anyone else wnat to through is some change? ;)

THE SHIT IS WORK FOR HIRE. FUCKING PERIOD.

[sparkane]

I didn't think it was possible to be any ANGRIER at the fucking judges who are making these decisions.

All right. For all their hooliganism, one can see that the MPAA and RIAA do have a certain legitimate beef - the problem with them is that they're trying to handcuff the public. And you have to remember, they're private corporations. That's their nature. Not to give a shit about you except insofar as you're made of funny green paper.

But THIS. THIS is too much. IF THE GOVT HIRES A COMPANY TO WRITE THE WORDING OF A LAW, WHAT ARE THEY DOING ALLOWING THEM TO RETAIN COPYRIGHTS TO THAT WORDING?

What now? These corporations start to charge anyone who wants to read THE LAW THAT APPLIES TO THEM?!

I can see it now, they ENCRYPT the law, and you can only read it on Windows, and someone wants to read it in Europe on Linux for a school assignment, and so decrypts it, and then there's a lawsuit under the DMCA for decrypting the INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OF THE LAW!

AAAAARRRGH!

"But i didnt know it was illegal ..."

[Srin Tuar]

"... to disseminate copies of the law."

"Sorry kid, ignorance of the law is no excuse."

The rest of the story

[Australopithegeek]

Being a citizen of Denison and familiar with the players in this on-going drama, I thought I might point out a thing or two. First of all, this a local spat with lots of high-sounding principles being tossed about all the while masking the simple fact that one group doesn't like a ruling made by the city. National press, court appeals, and such are great distractions from the basics of the case. Mr. Veeck bought a building in downtown Denison several years ago and wanted a variance in the building code to accommodate his plans. The City rejected him and he stopped work, leaving a gutted shell standing on Main Street. The City of Denison passed a resolution (law) many years ago adopting the building code as written, amended, and maintained by SBCCI with full knowledge of its copyrights and practices. The terms of this resolution require reasonable access to written copy of the regulations. By partnering with SBCCI, Denison has kept our taxes lower by not having to maintain an engineering and clerical staff large and competent enough to assure public safety and compliance with every county, state, and federal regulation that comes along. As a non-profit organization, they rely upon income derived from consulting, educating and selling printed copies and updates of the codes they establish. What we give up is instant gratification - we have to wait until normal business hours or fork over cash. I have always been able to get what I needed for free in a reasonable time. We in Denison accepted their right to charge for this service when we adopted their code. Is it the perfect answer? No, but with many other budgetary considerations it is considered to be the best. Mr. Veeck published the code on his website contrary to SBCCI's explicit copyright notice and they insisted that he remove it. They asserted their rights under their agreement with the City of Denison. With this, he has managed to turn the argument away from the original question of the safety and judiciousness of his plan for renovating his building. The nearly-demolished shell sits untouched until this is over. For more information on the Veeck family, be sure to put "Veeck" in you favorite search engine or check out Bill Murray's upcoming movie, "Veeck as in Wreck" due in theatres next year. In spite of all this current nonsense, they are a very entertaining family and American originals.

Re:The rest of the story

[Crusty Oldman]

This was just one of a million stories, relegated to obscurity in the Naked City.

Score:0 The facts don't count if they come in later than 30 minutes of publication.

Re:The rest of the story

[Peter Veeck]

In point of fact the Denison codes were never posted as the Denison code was a 1988 version which was not available. The codes in question are for Anna, TX and Savoy, TX. Neither of which citys have a city library available. The reason the building has not been comleted is due to legal and medical expenses.

Re:How Can this be? Laws for the rich

[stpats]

The economic well being of the USA currently exceeds that of Japan, even with this apparently huge disparity in the number of lawyers.

Now the crime rates of the respective countries, that's a different matter... :)

Ah HA!!

[sandidge]

Yes, but by filing their suit, they have violated my patent on assinine bullshit! Caught those bastards red-handed!

I'm sorry what country am I in again?

[Rhinobird]

I could see how they would have a case if they also published examples and happy little comentary to illustrate the specific points in the law and then copyrighted that . But if all he did was post the law itself then what is their problem...it should be public domain. And no, just having it in a public library or courthouse isn't enough.

Some people can't physically move to those places for whatever reason. Then there are the blind. Unless this is published in braille then they're out of luck too. On the web anyone with a laptop can access it; also, if it's in text format it can be run through some sort reading device for the blind, i.e. translating into braille or having the computer actually read to them.

Re:Not that different from what we have now

[shanek]

A law needs to be absolutely specific - otherwise you'd end up with different decisions on the same case with different judges.

But again, that's the situation we have now. Besides, something can be specific without resorting to legalese. If anything, the legalese tends to hide loopholes that certain individuals or companies could use to wriggle out of having to obey the law.

Secondly, natural language changes over time. Laws written now in natural language will be as incomprehensible in 100 years

The Constitution was written in natural language, but after two centuries it still reads fairly easily. The laws we're passing now, however, are incomprehensible even to most educated people.

Bottom line: How can you ask people to obey laws they don't understand?

Not that different from what we have now

[shanek]

The only difference between this and the rest of the legal system is the copyright aspect. The complexity of the legal system means that ordinary citizens don't have a chance of understanding them. Even lawyers have to specialize. No one can know all the law, but we're all supposed to follow it.

If you're going to write your Congressman, put it in the form of a "right to understand the law" issue. Not only would that mean free dissemination sans copyright, it would also mean that acts would have to be plainly worded.

The usual rebuttal to this idea is that lawyers and judges could interpret the law in any way they wish. But isn't that the system we have now? The only difference is, regular Joe Blows have to take the word of the lawyers and judges. If the laws were plainly worded, we'd be better able to form opinions on which judges are following the law and which are following their own agenda, and be able to vote the latter out of office.

Re:Not that different from what we have now

[mikethegeek]

"Perhaps juries should review the law to see if it is comprehensible"

Actually, Juries have that power. In fact, Juries have ABSOLUTE POWER in a case!

While Judges are bound to the law, the Constitution above all, Juries are not. They are empowered to judge even the LAW. It's called "jury nullification". A jury may find someone not guilty because they feel the LAW unjust.

This is one reason why prosecutors and defense attorneys alike try to pack juries with morons who do not know this. Want to get dismissed from Jury duty? Declare your belief in the principle of "Jury Nullification"

Re:Not that different from what we have now

[kalashnikov556]

Heinlein mentioned something like that in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". I believe that only 1/3 of this branch would have to vote against a law to get it repealed.

"The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind." - N.H. Constitution

Re:It is valid under the 14th amendment

[bluebomber]

they also have their libertarian-approved right of self defense against your initiation of force by infringing on their intellectual proprty rights

Uh huh. IP infringement is *NOT* an initiation of force.
-bluebomber

No, you can't see the rules

[Rubyflame]

...but ignorance is no excuse.

Opposite Story in Denver

[bigbadbuccidaddy]

Something exactly opposite is going on here in Denver... There's a proposition out that will make the laws available over the Internet. Some groups are fighting it on the grounds that they'll only be available to those with Internet access.

Our Boston Public Library Depts censor reports.

[dsaklad]

Our Regional and Massachusetts Library of Last Recourse
City of Boston Public Library Departments Curators
have censored their very own curatorial reports.

BPL Departments curatorial reports are a source of
descriptive bibliography about the scope of our public
library collections within the overall collections.

Library President Bernie Margolis needs to remove the
too many barriers to access legitimately public BPL
departmental curatorial reports.

Bernie flouts state and local FOI freedom of
information and our cities' public libraries
intellectual freedom principles by allowing BPL
curators to censor at public reference desks.

Social Sciences department curator
Mary Francis O'Brien, Humanities Department curator
Bill Grealish and Government Documents Department
curator Gail Fithian have censored their very own City
of Boston Public Library Departments curatorial
reports.

oo__ dWs

Guide to Problematical Library Use

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http://GuideToProblematicalLibraryUse.WebLogs.com/ stories

Updates
http://GuideToProblematicalLibraryUse.WebLogs.com

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[Corvidae]

Scary indeed. Thanks for clearing that up.

I think I'm going to hide under my bed now, too. And they say you don't need to be paranoid...

Waaaaaait a second.

[Corvidae]

IIRC, isn't everything from government SPECIFICALLY excluded from copyright, as it's all done using the people's money? That applies to state governments, too, who write the building codes...

Unless I'm missing something, in which case, feel free to be good citizens and flame me out the ass for my lack of knowledge. You'll do it anyway, but I'll feel a little better knowing I asked you to and you weren't just being jerks.

;)

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[pjpII]

First of all, the Declaration of Independence is not a law.

Second of all, for all the second amendment proponents who believe that it exists to prevent the government from becoming too powerful- that is a sham and a lie. There is absolutely no way in hell that even incredibly well armed miltias could oppose the military and political power of the US government. Such an uprising would probably not be terribly large or cohesive. The government has dealt with peaceful protestors before, well trained ones, and has used the media to manipulate their image into one of riotious crowds rather than peaceful marchers.

The government would have a much easier time dealing with violent terrorists(as they would be most assuredly called). They would have an excuse to use all those tanks, planes and automatic weapons they have lying around. The only places where guerrilla warefare could be successfully staged would be in underpopulated regions of little national importance. This isn't like 1777.

Additionally, other nations probably wouldn't offer support for the terrorists. Look at Palestine- they have the support of nearly every middle eastern nation, expertise with weapons and terrorist tactics, and decent staging areas. And still they're getting their asses beaten by the Israeli government, which has helicopters and missles and bulldozers and the consent of the US.

The only way that you can safely oppose government power is through peaceful means. If you use violence, it gives the government all the leeway it wants. If you protest peacefully, they can't do that much to you before they begin to provoke outrage. Why do you think Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"? Because as you escalate violence, you only bring more violence upon yourself. It takes a hell of a long time, but its possible to bring change without shooting anybody. And look what violence does do- it obscures your point,(ie, in the case of McVeigh) and makes you hated.

So, please, if you want to you can dwell in a fantasy world of gunslinging and epic battles on the east coast 3 hundred years ago, but it won't change the government, or boost your cause. It will only give the government more ammunition to hurl at you, real and imaginary.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[ScuzzMonkey]

Small point...

On your first point, absolutely correct. It's more like a documentation of legislative intent than anything, and while well-written and cogent document, it's definitely not the law.

On your second point, while I agree completely with your analysis and mostly with your conclusions, you're dead wrong about the intent, and you're wrong because you're ascribing the intent to modern factors, not historical ones. At the time the amendment was added, it was done precisely to prevent the government from becoming too powerful. There was no large, all-powerful federal force to make armed revolution futile in those days (as it likely would be today). Even in more recent history, such a thing was close to possible. You can argue about whether or not the South ever had a real chance in the Civil War, but you can't deny that they gave the North a run of trouble over secession. Guns made that possible; Southern militias fought that war for the Confederacy.

As I said, I tend to agree with your conclusions about the modern state of things; personally, I believed that we should just agree to conduct ourselves more civilly in these debates. But in the real world, power does ultimately rest on lethal force--while the government may hold the trump card there, it's understandable that people who consider themselves on the other side of the matter (a silly notion in a representative democracy, IMHO) don't want to give up the ace they have. Despite the perceived futility of armed action against the US government, I have little doubt that, were several of our more militant founding fathers alive today, they would be up in the hills in Montana someplace stockpiling Uzi's and plastic explosives. And OTOH, I think the worst reason in the world to bow to popular pressure and melt down your arms is simply to avoid giving "...the government more ammunition to hurl at you...." Just going along with the program for its own sake leads down a dark path.

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[mikethegeek]

"Scary indeed. Thanks for clearing that up.
I think I'm going to hide under my bed now, too. And they say you don't need to be paranoid..."

I feel the same. But there is another law passed by Congress in 1776 that has relevance for this kind of situation... I better post this now, before some anti-freedom 4 letter acronym copyrights it:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[orius_khan]

"I wonder, if you had asked the framers of the Constitution to predict how long it would be until the government they were instituting would be toppled by revolution from within, what would they have said?"

Maybe something like this:
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

Thomas Jefferson

I also remember him saying something about 20 years, but I can't find that quote again...

Re:Waaaaaait a second.

[pagsz]

...we can't be sure where their paychecks are coming from.

Actually, we can be sure where they're paychecks are coming from. Paid for and delivered by corporate America. Sure, officially that tab is picked up by the American taxpayer, but its corporate America that got them there in the first place. Corporate America donates millions to political campaigns to gain favor with the legislature [read: corporate America BRIBES Congress]

This bullshit is the next logical evolution of the process. First, companies get in good favor with Congress with "campaign contributions." Then, they force their corporate agenda down America's collective throat (DMCA, giving the digital spectrum to corporate media FREE, and more bullshit than can be listed here). Now, they copyright the law itself so Americans can't possibly see how they're being screwed (although admittedly the average American isn't informed enough).

So, what do we do now?

1. Pull Congress's lips away from corporate America's ass
   [read: campaign finance reform].
2. Begin re-working the copyright laws to eliminate (OK, more realistically reduce the abuses)
   [read: Write a copyright law that makes sense]
3. Get corporations (cough*Microsoft*cough) to abide by the new rules
4. Live happily ever after in fantasy land cause this ain't gonna happen.

So, in the real world, what's next? With this decision, more copyrighted laws, more corporate control of the country, and the Microsoft/AOL Time Warner/Disney/AT&T States of America (copyright 2047) are born.

I NEED SOME VODKA!!

AT LEAST ELEVEN GALLONS WORTH!!

In Germany: No.

[chirlu]

In Germany there is an explicit legal exception stating that every text passed by the parliament is not protected by copyright laws. Any former rights lapse, and no-one can usurp it anew.

There was in interesting case some years ago when a German publisher of legal texts claimed to posess the exclusive right on certain headings he had added to the penal code; e.g., other publishers should not be allowed to entitle the section on murder "Murder".

The problem was solved then by putting the headings into the official text of the law...

Re:In Germany: No.

[astar]

West Law owns all the citable black law in the United States. Black law is the case law. Legal results tend slightly against them, but one court had held that you cannot even use their page numbers. A later case had a different result. Note that you cannot practice law effectively if you can not cite acceptably to a relevant case. West also owns the indexing and the commentary.

Re:In Germany: No.

[gd23ka]

But while you're at it you should mention that especially in Germany most of the rubber laws passed by their "parliament" actually only refer to "Durchfuehrungsverordnungen" (Executive Regulations) for the specifics. Good luck obtaining these. While the "Polizeigesetz" (Police Law) is publically available, the "Polizeiliche Durchfuehrungsverordnung", in other word the regulations which governs what little the police can not do are not publically available. I tried to obtain one and was told that the PDV is only available to police officers. Go figure..

Come to think of it... Even what passes for their constitution ("Das Grundgesetz") is built on the very same scheme. While it guarantees Freedom of Speech it also says that "details" of what is or what is not acceptable Free Speech is defined in separate laws such as the penal code of course.

All in all the law over here in Germany is the same kind of fraud like it is everywhere else in the world.

Make it legal, regardless

[John Jorsett]

Regardless of the final outcome, I'd favor legislation that would make the text of all government regulations public domain. If we're expected to comply, it should be as easy as possible to access this information. And if fewer regs get written as a result, that's just gravy.

Re:Make it legal, regardless

[John Jorsett]

Could you imagine if some crazy congress people got together and put say...and entire just released novel in the middle of a regulation? Suddenly that novel is public domain.

They can do that now. The Congressional Record is public domain and any congressbeing could theoretically put anything they wanted into it. They don't because they'd get major heat for it.

The government should publish all laws on Internet

[bbn]

Here in Denmark we have a governmental instituion publish all laws, including any changes, notes etc. on Internet. It is the full system that our parlament uses internally for creating the laws. It has various search and index functions, making it easy to find the laws that interrest you. Actually having read the law can be really usefull to cut the crap out of authorities that want to bully you.

Re:Well.. Ignorance of the law and due diligence

[sqlrob]

When "Ignorance of teh law is no excuse" was originally said (IIRC, Thomas Jefferson), the law was reasonably understandable by one person, and could fit in a single volume. Hell, now not even the tax code does that, never mind everything else.

If ignorance is no excuse, how about catching the judge on some law, and then using that as an example. One can reasonably assume that a judge MUST know the law. If he cannot, how can an average person?

Probably it.

[Kjella]

Yep, that would probably be it.. original title is "Der Prozess", but trial is more like it in english.

Kjella

Kafka anyone?

[Kjella]

So I can't publish what laws I'm living under, because I don't own the copyright? That makes sense, now we just need a legislative body that use them, and we've got a *secret* law. Yep, that's right. Not even a law collection could publish it, if the copyright holders refuse.

Is it just me that has Kafka's "The process" (or whatever the correct english translation is) coming to mind?

Kjella

Discussed in cni-copyright list

[EricEldred]

The case in question is but the latest in a long line of similar cases, but it has been ably discussed online over the last several months by some real lawyers in the mailing list archived at http://www.cni.org/Hforums/cni-copyright/2001-01/ under "Veeck vs. SBCCI (US 5th Circuit Ct Appeals)"

If you would rather read some authentic legal opinion instead of the rants of the rest of us on /., please follow the cni-copyright list (and thanks to CNI for hosting it).

It seems to me that these cases violate the spirit of copyright and wrongly instantiate a peculiar economic interest in something called "intellectual property" that is false and repugnant in a democracy under law. Therefore we ought to join together to repeal such laws and decisions, and forge new rules more suitable for this age of the Internet.

Isn't This About The TX Legislature Screwing Up?

[Furd]

The TechLawJournal reference is more extensive than the one cited in the article, giving you access to the opinions and corollary rulings.

All this case should do is remind us that copyright, and intellectual property in general, is a legislative construct, i.e. made up by government institutions to achieve specific ends. To the extent that these ends are not achieved, legislatures change the construction and definition of IP.

For us in the US, Article 1, Section 8, clause 8 of the Constitution dictates that the Congress shall have the power to "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; "

If we don't like what our legislature's current method for achiving this objective does, then it's up to us to agitate for change.

When we consider that copyright exists to give an economic incentive to publishers to invest in the dissemination of information, it's hard to understand the Veeck v. SBCCI ruling - but it is also true that, if SBCCI invested a great deal in the development of those codes, they should get some kind of economic reward. Did the legislature screw up by incorporating copyrighted materials in legislation without getting rights to that copyright first? Almost certainly! But once again, the onus is on the legislature to dot their i's and cross their t's - and, IMHO, they certainly didn't in this case.

And it'll be up to the citizens of Texas to fix it......

I thought laws were a matter of subscription ...

[wytcld]

paid in installments through our taxes.

We may not own them outright, but that certainly should give us full rights to view this year's edition.

Re:It is valid under the 14th amendment

[Suppafly]

well said. great .sig btw..

(OT)And...

[Karl_Hungus]

• It is illegal to smoke in a fucking BAR!

I mean, come on. That's so anachronistic. When was that passed? 1875? 1910?

Bertrand Russell's life was saved when he sat at the rear of an aircraft to enjoy his pipe and the plane nose-dived into the water, slaying all the abstainers in the front compartment he had just been forced to leave.
- Christopher Hitchens, "Living Life Well: Alocohol, Tobacco, and Art".

Re:This is how you create a tyranny...

[Kernel Kurtz]

"I'm beginning to think maybe it's time to start thinking of emigrating to some other country that needs IT people."

Better go soon while they still allow you to leave

:-)

Re:to hell in a ledger-book

[SubtleNuance]

or plutocracy.

to hell in a ledger-book

[SubtleNuance]

Attention Americans:

Do you need more proof your government is being controlled by profit seeking capitalists?

I am astounded.

I envoke the law of eight...

[3seas]

From the movie "the postman" .... That any man of the clan can challenge for leadership of the clan.
But those not of the clan can and will unfairly suffer the laws of the clan.

Did anyone spell tyranny wrong?

All this fighting for freedom lately has made me really wonder WTF happened to the freedom that we are reminded of our ancestors fighting and dying for?

Is this all supposed to be some big statement that all the past was nothing more than a bunch of pointless babel?

I recall many years ago asking a non-profit organization to let me see the stated public accessible documents of that organization. It wasn't like I was some out of town stranger, but was, in fact, an active member of the community for which this organization was representitive of.

I was asked why I wanted to see these public records and then, obviously regardless of anything I'd say, was denied.

I believe the Constitution of the United States contains something like "..for the people, by the people..." Hmmmm, guess that was just in some fiction movie....

Anyone of membership in the clan of law makers, willing to challange the clan leader for leadership?


3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!

Well...

[bigmaddog]

If the law is copyrighted and it cannot be distributed freely, how the hell are we supposed to know about it? "Sorry Officer, the part of the criminal code about DUI is copyrighted and, being a poor drunk, I can't afford to get access..." That's an exaggeration, but the legal precedent this is setting is, well, stupid.
----------

Re:Well...

[ichimunki]

specs for building roads in MN from MNDOT

Signs, Signals, and Pavement Markings from the Dept of Public Safety.

Watch out NRA!

[stinkydog]

If the law is illegal, only criminals will know the law!

This is a clear violation of our civil rights

[davonds]

Unfortunately to contest the law, one must first violate the law, and then contest the law. It is the building code that is illegal, not the copyright. If you are required to pay $300 to view a law, then that law fails to meet equal access requirements of the constitution. I also question the not for profit status of the organization holding the copyright. If you are not for profit, then by definition your products are public domain and you don't need copyright. This is clearly also a case of fraud.

Communisim lives on

[dropdead]

In the Russia it used they used to arrest people and tell them you have no right to see the law your being arrested for.And if you asked to see the laws it was considered a subversive act that you could be arrested for.
When you consider requests under freedom of information acts are often considered suspicious and anything under the sun can literally be given a copyright or patent. You have to wonder who won the cold war.
But communisim will never win, governments still prefer greed.

What about click-wrap?

[abuch]

You just purchased and installed a new program. Then comes a dialog box with three choises: 1) Click "Accept", in which case you agree to the conditions of "our" software license. 2) Click "Cancel", in which case the software will be deleted from your hard disk. 3) Type in your credit card number to view the software license at the rate of $10 per minute.

It is valid under the 14th amendment

[abe ferlman]

Everyone has an equal opportunity to earn $300 and buy a copy of the code so that they can abide by the laws. This is obviously sufficient to provide for equality under the law. If you're an evil conservative bastard, that is.

Where are the libertarians on this one? Unequal bargaining power doesn't negate a contract, right? Obey the social contract!

Bryguy

Lets just print it on a T-Shirt

[GigsVT]

That'll get em.
-

Re:God's Laws Copyrighted, Why Not Man's?

[Norshire]

Sorry to nitpick here, but you should realize that the TRANSLATION of those laws, not the laws themselves, are copyrighted. There is no copyright on the laws of the rather well-known God of the Universe (who also happens to be God of the nomadic sheep herders you referenced); the only copyrights are on particular translations. Got it?

Make yourself exempt from laws!

[spineless monkey]

Since there are many of us that go out of our way to avoid indirectly copying others material in order to prevent infringment, I now have a legal defense! From another viewpoint, if I'm obeying the law, am I committing copyright infringement?

maybe not internet...

[phr1]

But I thought law offices had libraries full of law books that had all the laws relevant to the jurisdiction. So what happens if you get into a lawsuit with somebody over a zoning dispute? Your lawyer is supposed to go to the city office to find out what the law says? And if the 5th circuit says the text is supposed to be available "for inspection and copying" (emph. added), then what copyright issue does that create?

Link to the guy's website

[zorg77]

http://regionalweb.texoma.net/CR/

It's crap like this....

[moz711]

It's stuff like this that makes me want to beat the crap out of a lawer with a baseball bat.
Can somebody, with official copy of 'California Penal Code', tell me if that is illegal?

Imminent Domain

[Lester67]

If the government can decide that they need my land, and arbitrarily remove it from my possession, can they not do the same to so-called "copyrighted" laws?

Write your legislators

[KarmaBlackballed]

That the people's laws belong to the people. In other words, once text is submitted to the people, it is implicitly being offered to the people. Anything else and you end up with cr*p like this.

How are the people served by not having unlimited access to the laws by which they are judged?

An interesting side note, are copyrights being violated when legislators copy the law text to distribute within their own offices for review?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~

Napster for Law would be a GOOD thing

[KarmaBlackballed]

his client has been ripped off every bit as much as the music recording companies that are suing Napster. "It's all the same," Veal said. "They've done the creative work, and now someone says, 'I ought to be able to take it because it's there.' "

If the government is going to fine or imprison me for not knowing a dance step, Napster would shine with a completely different light. Please no more Napster comparisons. These are entirely different domains. I am not required to know the lyrics of any song.

Law -> not equal to Music


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~

Is LexisNexus paying royalties?

[KarmaBlackballed]

Lawyers rely on LexisNexis and services like it for legal research. (http://www.lexisnexis.com/lncc/)

Is LexisNexis breaking the law?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~

Re:Way off base, folks.

[tillemetry]

Well, you are all free to write an open source building code. If you can get it accepted by your local authorities more power to you. If you have the time and money to get this done, again, more power to you. Its good to get involved in government. The fact that buildings are generally safe because these codes are in place has been largely ignored by these threads. Building codes are essentially general pre-engineered solutions designed to protect the public from things like fire and poor sanitary conditions that may kill them. I am personally happy that people are being paid to think about these things. I am also happy that they are so taken for granted in the west that people actually have the time to be morally outraged by the fact that people have been paid to think about them. It is a sign the system works.

This wastes YOUR money

[tomdarch]

I'm in the process of becomming an architect (I'm in the equivalent of a Medical Residency, working 'full time' *cough*Yawn* at an architecture firm, but I can't call myself an architect until I file a tall stack of paperwork and pass the national exam, the grading algoritms for which are proprietary, by the way)

Lack of access to building codes for architects is a royal pain in the ass. Most of my work is in the City of Chicago, which has it's own building code. The code is only really available in print from one publisher (trust me, you are not going to slog down to city hall and stand around looking over the code when you need an answer) Obviously, that printed version is difficult to search - issues related to fire ratings or egress stairs crop up in several different areas of the code, and it's hard to know that you've found all the relevant sections. Being able to search the text for 'stair' would make things much faster. It's also hard to know if you have the latest 'release'. In it's defense, the city has posted the zoning ordinance on their site, which is quite helpful.

It's really only the BIG cities who have the resources and staff to develop their own building codes (e.g. Chicago and New York being infamously idiosyncratic) Most towns base their municipal codes on BOCA or the SBC (in question here). They primarily adopt the 'model code' with a few minor changes. (I must say here that the idea of a "southern building code" has always kind of scared me - but that's probably just my northern bias)

I wonder if the SBC Inc. hassles towns who tweak the model code alot - at some point, it would no longer fall under their copyright because it had been so altered. Also, do towns pay a licensing fee for the use of these model codes? If a town falls on hard times, could their building code be revoked because they can't pay the fees?

This is bad for your saftey - if I have a hard time getting the details of your code, then I have a hard time designing a compliant building. Also, this is bad for your wallet, because when I can't find all the relevant sections of code, I'm going to get hung up in the permit department correcting my initial design, which leads to construction delays, which always means $!

Actually, this is slightly more complicated...

[tomdarch]

I just read a summary of the case that makes things a bit more complicated. The town in question adopted the model code without modification, thus, what Mr. Veeck posted was the verbatim model code. One of the arguments in the thread that this post started is that SBCCI expressly composed their work to be adopted as law, and as such shouldn't expect to be able to hold copyright.

One practical issue is that very few little hick towns are going to fork over cash for the real work that goes into writing and updating a building code, thus, if SBCCInc. doesn't get some sort of compensation, then people all over the south are going to have out of date builidng codes. Pure Capitalism allows the stupid to shoot themselves in the foot, which is great, unless you are transfered by your company to the Hicksville office and your house is a fire trap and your kids school doesn't have enough bathrooms. (Makes me think that a euro-style National Building Code would be a good idea, but then again, I think that a national high school curriculum could be a good idea too.)

I wonder what's going on with the International Building Code?

No problem! The next step is...

[wrinkledshirt]

...do whatever the hell you want, and then copyright the evidence against you.

Re:Well.. Ignorance of the law and due diligence

[hillct]

Remember "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". I used to think that was a perfectly reasonable thing, but if privare organizations are now taking steps to actively prevent my access and disrupt my attempts to reduce my ignorance, I have a BIG problem with that.

I wonder what effect this will have on due diligence. Can I demonstrate that I excercised due diligence in researching the law (with respect to, say, a business dealing) if I stop short of spending $750 to obtain a copy of the california building codes?

--CTH

--

This is BEYOND ridiculess.

[mfarah]

I don't know about USA, but in my country everyone is supposed to know the law. That's why every new law is published in the "Diario Oficial" (the "official newspaper" - its explicit purpose is exactly that one).

If we accept that a private entity can "own" a law, does this imply that the Diario Oficial must pay a royalty to said entity? If someone violates that law, does the prosecution have to pay such royalty in order to accuse the criminal? And the judge must pay in order to write his finding-of-facts? Does the defense must pay in order to deny the crime being committed? Do the newspapers must pay to reference it in their news report about this?

I think that the judges that upheld this position need to be reminded what the word "law" means.

--
Death to Vermin.

Open standards

[modemboy]

Just another reason for government to adopt open standards and share as in the OSS community. Obviously goverments are saving money by not having to write these codes themselves, instead adopting codes written for profit by a company. What the should be doing is working together to create these codes. Sure, Bumfuck, TX can't afford to maintain an up to date code by themselves, but if it's Bumfuck, TX and Bumfuck, OK and Bumfuck, AZ, etc. combining funds to create and maintain an open standard, then it is very feasable for this to happen. And it could work with all kinds of redundant stuff our government does. Just think how many different systems are being paid for again and again with our tax money. God damn, reading slashdot is weird now, most the stuff I see on here just pisses me off.

Sad But True

[Twylite]

Sadly, and as stupid as it may seem, disseminating copies of "The Law" is illegal (without appropriate permissions) in most countries. Printing and publishing the laws is Big Business and the government contracts to do so are worth a Lot Of Money ... so while everyone is supposed to have free (public) access to the laws (say, at your local library), copying them is a different matter.

So much for capatalism...

Bad test case

[PhipleTroenix]

This was a bad test case. The guy got the code in electronic format from the copyright holder and agreed to a shrinkwrap license.

To really test the case, he should have put up a non-complying structure, let the inspector point out where he is in non-compliance (not sure that would ever happen since town did not have copy). Then take the copy he gets from government agent and post that.

I know this is splitting hairs, but one of the facts in the case was that the he agreed to a shrinkwrap license.

Re:Bad test case

[Peter Veeck]

Not only did I agree to it, I did not violate it. It was never determined by any fact finding that I violated the license. Just some attorney stating so. I installed it on only one machine and used the copy and export functions enabled by the software author according to the instructions included in the help file and manual to "copy text to a word processor."

Re:On The Positive Side (you are slightly wrong)

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

The government does allow copying of the law during hours that the court houses are open. You can simply go there, find the law, and make copies on the copy machine free of charge or coyprite burden, but if you take those copies home, and re-copy them, then you are in violation (this is what the courts are saying, not what my interpretation of current law is)

Just doesn't make sense

[Omerna]

If they wanted their laws to be their own, they should have had them printed up in a little (copyrighted) book, not sent them off to the legislature!

If something becomes a law it HAS to move into public domain, because as long as ignorance is not an exuse for breaking the law (suspiciously like my .sig) the public has to be informed of any and all laws (or at least has to be ABLE to be informed).

If this group holds a copyright then the law can't be disseminated properly.

This seems like a common sense thing- you just CAN'T do it- but the way America's legal system works they probably have an illogial leg to stand on.
--------------------------------------

Re:Just doesn't make sense

[kalashnikov556]

You're expecting something the feral government does to make sense?

"The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind." - N.H. Constitution

The Government should buy the copyright

[sacremon]

...if they are going to enact it as law. This should be made one of the conditions of a private group writing the guidelines for public law. The government purchases the copyright after the law has been passed (so that they aren't buying every oddball guideline that any thinks up) with taxpayer money, and releases it to the public domain. That way the people who devised the guidelines are reimbursed for their effort, and the public doesn't need to shell out money each time they want to see the guidelines.

Everyone benefits from things like building guidelines, regardless of whether they build a house themselves or not, as any structure they live or work in has to conform, and that benefits them. That justifies the use of public funds to purchase the guidelines.

America, A Screenplay

[the real jeezus]

[ Streets of America. Sometime in near future... ]

Cop:"Alright, you're coming with me."
Citizen: [ perplexed ]"What did I do?"
Cop:"I'm sorry, that information is confidential. You'll have to pay the royalty first."
Citizen:"Huh? ..."
[ Sound of handcuffs clasping. ]
Cop:"Okay, how do you plan to pay the Incarceration Surcharge®"
Citizen:"Surcharge? ... I have to pay a surcharge?"
Cop:"Thats what all you whiney pukes say. Do you think the Founding Fathers® died so that you could drain your fellow citizens?..."
[ Beeping sound from Cop's Computer. ]
Cop:"Okay, your sentence just came back from Global HQ® Where We Do Everything Right®". You have been sentenced to 2 years hard labor at T.W.A.D.D.L.E. International Labor Center"
Citizen:"But what ever happened to...Freedom?"
Cop:"It's okay, Work Will Make You Free®"


Ewige Blumenkraft!

©©©

[J'raxis]

Imagine what would happen if new copyright laws themselves were copyrighted.

What's a six-letter word for "f**ked?"

[theoriginalturtle]

Some of you guys are making light of this, but this raises some seriously all-forked-up issues.

If you think about this, this goes straight to the heart of "what is a public record?" If the actions of publicly elected officials can be copyrighted by private individuals or private groups, you start raising some truly hairy questions.

• Do legislators "own" the legislation they write, and could they then demand compensation for its publication and use?
• Are elected legislators "employees," and so, is their work in office "work for hire?" and thus the property of their employer
• If so, who is the "employer?"
• If legislation is essentially ghost-written by outsiders (who cannot legally introduce legislation nor vote on it in Congress), but entered through a legislator, who "owns" the legislation text?
• Are all public records works for hire?
• Do citizens who fill out public forms (say, a copyright application, hm?) retain copyright in the content?
• Do witnesses who testify in court retain a performance copyright?

Some of these are rather out there, but man, if private individuals or groups can essentially "own" public law...

Turtle
---------------------------------------

Way off base, folks.

[Crusty Oldman]

Y'know, instead of pissing and moaning about how things SHOULD be, how about reading the facts in the decision of the court to understand why this guy is wrong? 99% of the comments in this thread are way off-topic when viewed with an elemental understanding of the law.

Score:0 Somehow I will have to live with it

Re:Way off base, folks.

[mikethegeek]

"Y'know, instead of pissing and moaning about how things SHOULD be, how about reading the facts in the decision of the court to understand why this guy is wrong? 99% of the comments in this thread are way off-topic when viewed with an elemental understanding of the law."

How? Even if the guy was a malicious skunk, the building codes are LAW, not "guidelines". The right to know and dissiminate verbatum and your opinions on law is an ABSOLUTE RIGHT when the Constitution is taken literally (as it was meant to be).

IMHO, a law you can't quote, publish, etc, as you see fit is NOT a law, and that's what the judge should have ruled.

If you can't dissiminate at your choice a law, how are you able to excercise your right to petition, and your right to due process? Both explicit Constitutional protections.

Like I said ...

[Crusty Oldman]

Like I said, you are way off base, folks.

Read the decision of the 5th circuit court http://regionalweb.texoma.net/CR/ then make your comments.

Heck, I might even agree with some of your conclusions. But you will have to understand what issues the court based its ruling on first.

Re:Like I said ...

[Crusty Oldman]

I think we could agree on most things, but in this case I disagree.

What most U.S. citizens do not realize is that the state codes operate thru contract. The building codes are private law, just like they appear to be. Mr. Veeck had no right to copy, paste, and publish a copyrighted, privately owned document.

Score:0 Let's bury this one.

Not For Profit

[budgenator]

Not for profit, actualy means more or less that there are no profits to be distributed (dividends to stockholders) after expenses are paid. In short they pay their employees and officer's so much that there are no profits left after expenses. This may be noble or not depending on the not-for profit. Just note I'm not a lawyer, or tax expert this is just my humble understanding and I may be wrong

my god

[Maskirovka]

I guess that the next logical step for these groups would be to claim that the laws are trade secrets and regulate knowledge of them in a similiar fashion. I can't beleive we (USA) have sunk this low.

maskirovka

I think I'll copyright the Constitution...

[mikethegeek]

And charge the government royalties for reprinting it, using it in court, etc...

Opps, the flaw in my strategy is the government doen't give a FLYING FUCK about what the Constitution says anymore... :)

Re:Only here in America

[mikethegeek]

"This is absolute bullshit. Legal codes, like unsealed court documents, are in the public domain. It is incredible that not one but two courts have upheld this foolishness."

"violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Issac Asimov... Stuff like this being done by public officeholders who should know better, and swore OATHS to not do makes me doubt the wisdom of those words...

Clearly the courts are out of control. This is again an instance of a judge applying STATUTORY LAWS (like the DMCA) over Constitutional Law (which is supposed to supersede all statutory law).

Clearly, "private copyrighted laws" are a flagrant violation of the Constitution. It makes me wonder what ACME law school diploma company these judges bought their degrees from, or else, who is paying them?

This is a case where the only two rational explanations for the judge's behavior is:

1. Corruption
2. Stupidity

There is no third possibility.

The law in question may be Unconstitutional (and thus illegal), but if copyrighted, how do you take it to court to fight it without a license?

Re:Republic vs. Democracy

[mikethegeek]

"I beg to differ. In fact, I would say that it is the very fact that we are a Republic that is causing these problems. What we suffer is not "mob rule." Instead, the majority is repressed by their so called representatives who owe allegiance only to the coporate dollar."

Absolute rule by the majority *IS* Mob Rule... Which is Democracy.

A Republic is rule by representative Democracy, that restricts the MOB by being forced to be restricted by LAW (Constitution).

Re:How Can this be? Laws for the rich

[mikethegeek]

"The legal system is becoming ever more for the ones who can afford it (much like medical care)."

Actually, much worse than medical care....

In the USA, if you show up to the emergency room, they HAVE to treat you, whether you can pay or not.

That is NOT the case in a court of "law". You are entitled to a "free" (loser who can't get paid) attorney only in criminal cases where you are a defendant. And such bad representation you might as well plead guilty. If you are sued civilly, there is no such right.

Now that we've become a hyperlitigious society (sponsored by those Dem contrinbuting "American Trial Lawyers", almost everyone is at risk of being sued.

Hillary Clinton once proposed that there be a "cap" on the number of doctors who could be graduated from medical schools as a means to control health care costs. How come she (a lawyer) never proposed doing the same thing to the law schools?

Re:This is how you create a tyranny...

[mikethegeek]

"RTFA. You can read it for free by going to the library"

But how do you excercise your Constitutional Right of petition, and your 1st Amendment Freedom of Speech to get this law CHANGED by informing your fellow CITIZENS of it, with explanations of why you think it is wrong, if you can't PUBLISH THE LAW in your literature?

As we are all supposed to be EQUAL before the law, the law should be EQUAL before us. In other words, the law belongs to ME as much as the next guy.

Back in the days of the Founders, most protests of this kind were done via printed leaflets. There is no conceptual difference between that an a web page.

This is how you create a tyranny...

[mikethegeek]

Ignorance of a law is not a defense against it. Ok, now they are passing laws that are "copyrighted IP" which can be sold or published only at the discretion of the copyright holder...

Doesn't this seem to you like a great way for corps to get laws (like the DMCA) passed, then PREVENT the public from being able to even READ it without violating some inane IP law (like the DMCA)?

How would you, as an individual, DEFEND yourself against a law that you wouldn't even be allowed to READ except by license from your accuser?

How can you, as an iddividual citizen, excercise your Constitutionally protected right of PETITION to get a bad law overturned, if you couldn't even inform the public as to what your problems with that law were, except by getting a license from the very people you oppose?

I bet Valenti, et all are kicking themselves at this very moment for not thinking of this idea when they sent the DMCA to be rubber stamped by their bought congress and president...

I'm beginning to think maybe it's time to start thinking of emigrating to some other country that needs IT people.

Re:This is how you create a tyranny...

[RalphTWaP]

Now then...

This *acutally* hits the core of the problem. It's not a question of a single person having access to the law. That access is guaranteed regardless of IP/Copyright issues by the courts. The access may be restricted in some respects (the county clerk's office has a looooong lunch break), and the access may be to only a handful of formats (written, braille--I believe required, etc). But there will be access.

However, the real threat comes when the text of the law needs dissemination to a third party.

How can you, as an iddividual citizen, excercise your Constitutionally protected right of PETITION to get a bad law overturned, if you couldn't even inform the public as to what your problems with that law were, except by getting a license from the very people you oppose?

*points upward* This is exactly the situation that must be avoided. A person or group denouncing the law would have to license the right to publish the law from the IP holders.

Without the right to publish the law, without the right to allow others to view the law at thier leisure, there can *be* no informed public. Thus there can be no democratic process with respect to the law.

In short, restricting by any positive action, access to the text of the laws prevents the very exercise of democracy that the laws intend to forward. While I would also argue that it abrogates the individual's inherant right to self-governance (how may I enter into a social contract without first being able to understand the contract), the important sticking point is that the process of democracy is being destroyed from underneath--by eliminating the informed citizenry needed to propigate it.


Nietzsche on Diku:
sn; at god ba g
:Backstab >KILLS< god.

Re:This is how you create a tyranny...

[sdowney]

Quoting from the actual opinion:

Under these, no one is being denied reasonable access to the SBCCI codes that have been adopted in globo by local governments; neither did Veeck's specific actions make a sufficiently strong case for fair use. Even slightly different facts under different circumstances might produce a different result.

It would seem that if you can not get access to the law at all, and remember Veeck did, the situation would be substantially different.

Re:the RIAA and the DCMA

[mikethegeek]

"How can anyone prohibit the distribution of written law in a democratic republic?"

Simply, you can't. With that, is proof that the USA has already crossed the line and is no longer a democratic republic, but rather an Oligarchy with a "republic esque" structure.

Only here in America

[localroger]

This is absolute bullshit. Legal codes, like unsealed court documents, are in the public domain. It is incredible that not one but two courts have upheld this foolishness.

It doesn't matter how well it is done, how much work went into it, or whatever; once it is a matter of law it is the State's duty to make it as freely available as possible. Otherwise one has the Kafka-esque situation of being required to comply with laws which will only be revealed to you for a price.

government services

[Proud Geek]

There is a set of services that government should clearly supply. Making laws is one of them. Sure, people should be able to draft and submit laws, but once there, they should be available for everyone. If a company drafts a law for profit, it should only be as a result of a comission from some other party, and once submitted it should clearly be available for everyone to examine.

This is one of those times that I am truly ashamed to be USian.

Oh yeah?

[suwain_2]

I'm going to patent the process of copyrighting laws and charge them royalties.
________________________________________________

I hereby proclaim im no longer a U.S. Citizen

[algorithm_x]

Fuck this country and fuck these laws. I was taught that to be a citizen of this country if free, thats not so. I was taught that in order to be a citizen of this country I must follow all Federal, State, and local laws, I am unable to do this. Not buy being unwilling, but by corportization. We are not free people we must pay taxes in order to keep freedom, and If I have no money I cant be free. I live in an apartment complex, and in exchange for rent I do maintenance tasks. Under the law that is fully taxable, I do profit from this but not in any monetary sense, I basicaly have a home in exchange for services. The IRS says I must pay tax on this, but if I dont get monetary funds I cant give them money.. see the paradox? Now in order for me to build a home I must obtain building codes, but I must pay over 700$ for those bulding codes, if I dont use those codes I get fined, damned if I do damed If I dont. So I say fuck this country it is no different from the others, we dont have to join the millitary when we become of age, we just have to serve the government in other way, like working for the food reich (McD's, Taco Hell, etc. or we can work for the retail crap reich, Wall Fart, Jears, or kower records, etc. I am not working for the puppets but for the real government the corporations. Maybe we should call it United Companies of America or maybe we can call it USA inc.© If this crap keeps up the flag will have that copywrite symbol on it and if we create one or print one out without paying royalties we will be fined and arrested. I want to know who is going to own the copywrite to words, used to be that art was copywrited and that was fine, then whole books, I can even accept this, music? yea those people should get payed, but now the law, next I fear it will be the words we speak, and I will make sure I am not around to see that.

Re:Well.. Ignorance of the law and due diligence

[ragefan]

"We explain to people, and they get real upset about it in most cases because they feel like they're paying for this in taxes, so why should they pay for it again?" Nearman said.

If it's any consolation, even the state has to buy its own copies, he said.

The fscked up thing is that we are paying for the code since the state is paying for their copies with taxpayers money. Even the libraries are buying them w/ taxpayer money.

Don't attack the copyright, nullify the law...

[markmoss]

Authors do have a right to copyright their work, unless they have themselves given up that right, e.g. by "working for hire". But to take that copyrighted work and make it a law requires making copies -- so it was the legislature that violated copyright first. (IANAL, but it sounds good -- and I've seen too many building inspectors that were more interested in preserving unionized construction jobs than in ensuring things were built right.)

What if it had been read in the legislature?

[Myrv]

So if someone had requested the entire text of the building code to be read into the record during legislation (which they are perfectly within their right to do) what would become of the transcripts.

All legislative transcipts are public domain (no if, ands, or buts about that one) so one could then simply publish the transcript instead.

God's Laws Copyrighted, Why Not Man's?

[ryants]

The laws of the god of some 4000 year old nomadic sheep herders, later adopted by most of Europe, are copyrighted...

so hey... if it's good enough for Jehova, it's good enough for some piss-ant Texas town.

Ryan T. Sammartino

Here we...

[Dutchy]

..go again. Somebody makes information public that wasn't made public by the originators, and all of /.dom is up in arms! Spend a little more time on the background of the situation please people.

I used to work in road construction, where we also had a 'code' similar to the building code that the article discusses. It is NOT a 'law', but rather a set of standards that contractors must abide with to get paid.

In Ontario (Canada) here the standard is about 4 or 5 inches in height (double sided). The province has invested millions and millions of dollars into research determining the standards that best balance between cost effectiveness, safety, and durability, amongst other reasons. This standard is not only used in Ontario, but has been purchased in whole or in part by other provinces and states.

I'm not suggesting that various levels of government have absolute control over the dispersion of their materials, but there has to be a balance. Surely I should not be permitted to walk into any /.ers office and take the papers of their desk, but at the same time I have the ability to acquire knowledge about any infractions of pollution laws that their company has made.

I guess I'm getting a little off the point; my point is perhaps sometimes government has a right to limit access to their very expensive R&D at times.

Just a reminder:

[PicassoJones]

We are no longer allowed to discuss the DMCA on the Internet, as it is protected under the DMCA.

What bullshit

[pjt48108]

So does this mean that I can't reproduce the Consitution online on my own page, the code still being the property of the descendents of Messrs. Jefferson, Hancock, Hamilton, Madison, yada yada yada...

> Ok... I'll go read this article now, but my blood pressure sure son't need it!

Ok...

[pjt48108]

So here is my rational assessment... The Law is by it's very definition public domain, so any corporate lamprey looking to get his pound of flesh outta this can go hang for all I care.
Microsoft and such corporate bottom-feeders best watch it: these reindeer games play both ways. Should code generated under GPL appear in MS Windblows Ecchs-Pee, it stands to reason that the proggies who wrote it could end up owning M$ (but then, if you hved everything, where would you put it?).
My opinions only. Your Mileage may vary.

Rules of the house

[OpenSourced]

1. You can't win.

2. You can't break even.

3. You can't quit the game.

....

And now, you cannot even know the rules.

(Sorry I forgot to whom belongs the above quote)

Re:Only in America...Laws of the Land??

[gd23ka]

The law commentary being vastly more important than the text of the laws themselves as they show how the court will interpret the law.

Re:How Can this be? Laws for the rich

[dfalgoust]

A cap on the number of doctors or lawyers would not decrease medical or legal costs; such a cap would cause costs to increase. Basic supply and demand: reduce the supply of service providers, and the cost of the service will increase. Hillary's a freakin' idiot.

Re:How Can this be? Laws for the rich

[dfalgoust]

Statistics like this are almost deliberately misleading. Lawyers in America wear many hats; I, for example, practice corporate law and will likely never see the inside of a courtroom. However, I am still a lawyer -- I have a law license, and am therefore legally permitted to represent clients in court. Thus, I am counted as an "lawyer" for the above statistics. However, when they count lawyers for other countries, they are usually just counting trial lawyers. Because individuals who perform non-trial services that are handled by lawyers in America have a different job title abroad (e.g., they aren't given the same job title as a trial practitioner), those non-trial service providers aren't counted. Thus, the statistic is misleading.

Copyright shmopyright

[Thurn und Taxis]

IIRC, copyright refers to the instantiation of the work, and not to the intellectual property contained within. So can't we just pipe the laws through 'sed s/the/teh/g' and claim it as a derivative work?

You ARE the Missing Link. Goodbye!

the RIAA and the DCMA

[Supa Mentat]

Can you imagine what would happen if the RIAA said, "Hey, we basically wrote the DCMA and then lobbied Congress into passing it. It's our law now, nobody can post it anywhere online or publish it except for the Government and us"? We'd all be screwed! The only chance we've got to get the DCMA overturned is if enough people read about it. If they can make distributing copies of it illegal... well, let's just say that this is a scary precedent. How can anyone prohibit the distribution of written law in a democratic republic?

Is Law Copyrighted?

[thepler]

I can't tell you whether the law is copyrighted because copyright law is copyrighted. I'll let you read the copyrighted copyright law if you send me $600. Thank you, drive through.

A modest proposal

[quarky2]

To restore some sanity to the production and enforcement of laws: 1) Require all branches of government to post ALL laws and regulations on the Internet, as ignorance of the law is no excuse, and dissemination of law would greatly assist in compliance. 2) Make government subject to all laws and regulations it enacts, be it OSHA rules, Social Security participation, financial reporting, etc. When these two rules are followed, citizens can view government products in all their glory; and governments can feel the effects of their enforcement.

Re:Unfortunately not unique to US.

[0dB]

You're correct, in saying that the government should be obliged to make the law available online. But in terms of rights, this is a completely different case to that in the US. You are saying that you do have the rights to publish the law online, but where you have taken published material that also contains extra content - this content not being part of the law - then this extra content must be removed.

The fact that the law does not state how the law should be made available makes sense. For the most part, laws are about principles and concepts, and it is left for courts and precedents to decide what is "reasonable" or "available" or whatever the qualifying adjective might be. You can't seriously expect a legislative body to have anticipated the Internet (think about it - for example Microsoft missed the boat originally), and even if they had done so ten years ago when it all started to happen, people might complain that it should be available in XML format, or via WAP. The point here is that there should be no need to be more specific than "available".

Of course, we still need government to wake up to the power of the net and the new responsibilities (and opportunities) it presents to them, in this particular example, making the law available online. But in your example, they are not preventing you from doing so, and the law is not copyrighted. (aside: being ISO compliant is not a legal requirement, and therefore that is copyrightable material. I would prefer standards to be freely available, but as we have no country or international body that people would trust to set international standards, I am for now content with ISO standards.)

There's an important difference between making it time-consuming to publish the law (by inaction), and actively making it illegal. Copyrighting the law is pretty reprehensible. It's funny, Europe is slowly waking up to people's rights, while the US is slowly forgetting about them. There seems to be a whole range of issues where one could learn from the other.

Catch-22?

[gnovos]

Wasn't this the entire basis for the idea of Catch-22? This isn't a new thing, this is just one of those things that was written about in th epast and finally has coem to fruition. I'm sure the Ministry of Love is just around the corner...

Fortune quite Ironic sometimes

[geekfiend]

Well, this was my fortune at the bottom of the comments page from this story. It's a bit ironic as we're all talking about the stupidity of the US government right now

"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing... -- Thomas Jefferson"
-Joe LaPenna
Honorary Canadian
Milk in bags is un-natural
GO CANADA!

Unfortunately not unique to US.

[blang]

This happens other places too. Have you tried to get a copy of an ISO document lately? It's stupid, but you have to pay 100's of bucks (or swiss francs) to get a copy of ISO standards.

It is only lately that laws have been made available to the common man.

If you try to find out about trade regulations and stuff, you will need to read a few truckloads of stuff.

For example, in Norway, we had this volunteer project going, where we tried to collect all of Norwegian law online. We had too weed out footnotes that had been added by the publisher of the law books, since those were the intellectual property of the publisher. We did not trust that the publisher would not stop the project, so the homepage was moved to Switzerland.

It was easy to hold us accountable for what we did. However, it should have been the government's duty to make this information available. We shouldn't have had to act as vigilantes to make this information available. It is much harder to hold a government accountable, or force them to do something in a timely fashion. It is written in the law, that the law must be made available to all citizens, but the law fails to mention how that should be done. (Sure, it's available. Just visit the national archives, and you can peruse the documents. We're not stopping you.). The law does state, that not knowing about a law is not a valid excuse for breaking the law.

The common man must use his own common sense to try and keep his nose clean; laws are just to unwieldy to make any sense. But common sense is not enough. How many times have you said "There's gotta be some law agaist that". Or "Is that the law? who thinks up this shit?"

Common sense works great if the law was based on that. But it is not. Law is decided by politicians, who openly receive bribes (or campaign contributions as they call it). Both republican and democrats are prostitutes in this area. Do you really think there will be a campaign reform anytime soon? Forget it. Both parties get too much money, and they would not be so stupid that they would bite off the hand that feeds them . However, they should remember that they are in office toserve the public.

What the hell?

[apofex]

I have an idea. Next time someone gets in trouble with the law. Say you have absolute evidence that proves your innocence. And for the low price of $3.4 million, the district attorney can 'license' your evidence. But, he must sign a 'non-disclosure' agreement and cannot reverse engineer (aka: check the validity of the evidence) and you should patent: "A method for criminal justice procedure that argues against the defendent.", with another $3.4 million 'license' fee. hmm. nevermind, I think amazon already did this.

Re:Text of 5th Circuit Decision is copyrighted

[Sparr0]

actually the freedom of information act limits the fees for access to public records of this sort to "reasonable standard charges for document search and duplication". so, if they want to charge me for the $.001 of electricity their system used to search their database and provide me a copy then i guess thats fair.

Reproduction by the Government

[Sparr0]

So theres 4 ways to see a copy of the Building Codes.
1) Buy a copy for way too much from the copyright holders
2) view a copy owned by the local government
3) "steal" a copy distributed "illegally"
4) go ask the government for a copy
now, why has no one tried #4 yet? the text of the law has to be in the public domain records somewhere, and being for non-profit use the Freedom of Information Act provides that "fees shall be limited to reasonable standard charges for document search and duplication". Why pay $750 when you can get it for $10 from the legislature?

Westlaw and Elsevier Own the Law

[HavenWorks.com]

Westlaw and Elsevier Own the Law
http://www.google.com/search?q=westlaw+owns+the+la w

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&saf e=off&q=Jurisline

As I recall... And I Am Not A Lawyer...
Westlaw prints the law books lawyers use... they 'added value' to the legal decisions judges wrote by putting in PAGE NUMBERS. This pagination was used as an attempt to defend their monopoly over the distribution of the content of the law as lawyers used that pagination to cite the law and the pagination was proprietary, value added content. Including the pagination in any duplication of the public domain work was (?is) illegal under copyright law. (I thought this was solved be the removal of the pagination).

Jurisline.com attempted an end run of the Reed Elsevier (/Lexis) publishing empire's hold over online access to public domain law (Reed ironically swiped the data from Westlaw). Apparently Jurisline lost while Elsevier/Lexis got away with it:

http://www.ambar.org/journal/aug00/nstartup.html

Jurisline's attempt to make this info freely available over the net is well chronicled at:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/trhalvorson/law/jur isline.shtml

As mentioned by other posters, the notion that changing the law would be an unlawful derivitive work of copyrighted material is Kafkaesque hilarious - only the original creator, not necessarily an elected legislator, could change the law...
A curious requiem for Douglas Adams, I hope his spirit (and executors!) accept what I believe is fair and fitting use of a portion of his work:

"""
"People of Earth, your attention
please," a voice said, and it was
wonderful. Wonderful perfect
quadrophonic sound with
distortion levels so low as to make
a brave man weep. "This is
Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz of the
Galactic Hyperspace Planning
Council," the voice continued. "As
you will no doubt be aware, the
plans for development of the
outlying regions of the Galaxy
require the building of a
hyperspatial express route through
your star system, and regrettably
your planet is one of those
scheduled for demolition. The
process will take slightly less that
two of your Earth minutes. Thank
you." The PA died away.
Uncomprehending terror settled on
the watching people of Earth. The
terror moved slowly through the
gathered crowds as if they were
iron fillings on a sheet of board and
a magnet was moving beneath
them. Panic sprouted again,
desperate fleeing panic, but there
was nowhere to flee to. Observing
this, the Vogons turned on their
PA again. It said: "There's no point
in acting all surprised about it. All
the planning charts and demolition
orders have been on display in
your local planning department on
Alpha Centauri for fifty of your
Earth years, so you've had plenty
of time to lodge any formal
complaint and it's far too late to
start making a fuss about it now."
"""
-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Exemptions may be made for fair 'non-infringing' use through the Library of Congress. In a hurry all I could find was:

http://www.ala.org/washoff/Rulemaking.PDF

Providing access to the Law the Citizen is required to abide by seems like a sensible exemption -- allowing unfettered access to this particular class of work through the web seems essential for the 21st Century Citizenry to uphold their civic responsibilities and be Law Abiding Citizens.

Law Links:
http://www.FindLaw.com
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

p.s. just because .Gov created/stewards it doesn't mean some politician or bureaucrat can't Sell it Cheap to one of their friends. (i.e. public lands for drilling/logging/railroads, air waves/spectrum for radio, the RIAA's attempt to make musicians creative efforts 'works for hire' in the middle of the night )-:

http://www.HavenWorks.com/
"Vote and be vigilant"
- http://www.HavenWorks.com/hermit/

I reserve the right to change my mind, especially when new or better evidence is brought to light. -Haven Hermit
j-)