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Madrid's HiTech Shanty Town
Alien54 writes: "As reported in CNN, a hi-tech shanty town has arisen in Madrid, Spain, complete with pirated utilities and computer access. Known locally as El Campamento de Esperanza (The Camp of Hope), it is now a village of about 1,200 inhabitants, with libraries, bars, hot showers and cafeterias serving daily meals. They are skilled engineers and technicians, formerly employed by Sintel Telecommunications, a Spanish telecom company that filed for bankruptcy protection in 2000. With a mixture of ingenuity and tenacity, the workers have transformed their claim to $10 million in unpaid wages and refusal to accept forced resignations into a national issue, by squatting on the property where they used to work." Such a thing could never exist in the U.S. for longer than it took to load up the tear gas grenade launchers.
fubar says: One can sympathize with the protesters, but they have to understand, that's business, and over here in the US it does happen regularly (people getting laid off without pay) I'm spanish and work near them. They have worked for about six months without been paid. They want to be paid for their work
> Cops are often small, small human beings.
> The type that got made fun of in junior high
> and could never get dates. Give them guns and
> clubs, and you get the crimes that I listed.
For someone supposedly trying to point at abuses of prejudice from the police you dish out a very aweful injustice yourself. Do you truely think those you describe could ever grow up wanting to hurt innocent people? Then you have very little grasp of reality. Those in the circumstances you describe often grow up to be very humble and honourable people with a real desire to uncover the exact same issues you are describing.
What you have said here started off well but you have proved that even wise words can come from an idiot. Think about what you're saying, some of those picked on, were picked on for standing up against the crowd, for being themselves when pressure to conform was highest, for not allowing the other picked on kids to go it alone. For helping the weakest amongst them. Being Heroes if you like. Yes, we hated them at school but look back again, they are the least of our wories in society now. In fact, you are probably still one of their nighmares.
If I were to try such amatuer psychology I'd guess that the brutal police you describe are made up of those often on the giving end in junior high.
I think you'll find its a whole mixture of things that leads to that behaviour and the last thing that causes it, is what happened when someone was 14.
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/ener5/6mafia-i.html
Well... this one company was government owned till they sold it out to a guy who took the money and ran. so nowe the workers have some complaints about the government's actions. And the reason why they protest andf don't seek a new job is bacause they are owed 6 months wages and they have rights. They have legal rights protecting them from being fired just like that (unlike the US) and that's the demand. I live just across the street where they are camping and I happen to know the story well. My last comment goes to those who try to take a story like this and use it to speak about other societies and show comtempt: You deserve no answer and no attention, loser.
They are living there since January 29... And that camp is huge! And is the first impression you get when you arrive to Madrid. But things are really hard there, with 34 people died since January, and 7 suicides... :( And one cool message: They have a huge sign at the entrance of the campground saying "Sorry for any inconvenience... We are currently improving the Society!"
Sintel was a profitable comp. with big contracts with Telefonica, the ex-monopolistic Spanish telco. The Spanish right wing government sold it very cheap to Mas Canosa, yeah... the miami cuban mafioso, who proceeded to dismantle everything for as much he could get and forgot about the company. So what the workers are asking the geovernment why the fuck did they sold the company to that scumbag....
Are these the same "peaceful protestors" who threw molotov cocktails and golf balls at police, smashed hundreds of shop windows, and basically rioted for a few days?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Well certainly in that case I'd side with the worker, as a contract has been signed. What I disagree with are the "worker protection" laws which do not involve breaking contracts. If I offer you a job, with no specified time period, and pay you by the month, and then after a certain period of time I no longer need you to work for me anymore, why shouldn't I just be able to fire you at the end of the month? Why should I be forced to continue paying you despite the fact that I no longer wish to employ your services?
See, such laws will just make me hire fewer people in the first place. If I can easily fire people, I might hire 10 people when I need them, and then fire 5 when half are no longer needed. But with "worker protection" laws, I'll probably just hire 5 or 6 and make them work harder, since I don't want to take the risk of hiring and being stuck with additional people I might not need in the future.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Watch the first part of the tape, before that part. Rodney King was very violently resisting arrest, striking the police officers several times in the process.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I'm not so sure about that. If I am paying you to do a job for me, and I decide that for some reason I no longer wish to pay you to do that job for me, why should I be forced to continue paying you for a job I no care for you to do?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I'm not talking about breaking contracts, but about restrictions many companies put on in addition to contracts. Certainly if I sign a 2-year employment contract with Joe, I should not be able to fire him after 6 months. But if I sign a 3-month contract with him, there should be no problem with me firing him after 3 months.
Simply put, I don't care about your "protecting people" and whatnot if that involves forcing me to pay people against my will. And you'll see this in many European countries - since they can't fire people, they just don't hire as many people in the first place, or move a lot of their manufacturing to eastern europe.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
haha, the cops were throwing molotov cocktails at themselves. right.
and i suppose the groups who claimed to have a goal of "killing every last pig" were really cops too?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Uhh, you can't protest illegally in the US without being a criminal, as should be pretty self-evident. You can of course still protest legally all you want. Occupying someone else's building is not a legal form of protest, so of course they'd be driven off if this were to happen the US. I'd be pissed if a bunch of "protestors" were camping on my front lawn too.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Uh, that he did it? Regardless of whether or not he went to jail, he did it, and cops all over America are commiting other crimes as well. I think what got that guy was the media. If it hadn't been reported nation wide, his own police unit probably could have covered it up enough.
So by your logic, since cops are evil since a few cops commit crimes, black people are very evil, because many black people commit crimes. Yay for collective labelling.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
And many people also don't know that the cops were firing tear gas in response to Molotov cocktails and golf balls being thrown at them. The protestors only stopped throwing them when they RAN OUT of molotov cocktails and golf balls.
Hell, even the ironically named "Indymedia" admitted this.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
"His statement was in reference to the fact that you can't protest in the US anymore without becoming a criminal. "
Could you ever? McCarthyism (sp?) was a classic example of America not putting it's money where it's preachy mouth is and being the land of the free.
"That are my 0.02 Euros"
What are the fractional parts of a Euro called? E.g. Dollars and cents, pounds and pence, francs and centimes... euros and ????
#1. Men rarely report being sodomized. It's like how women hide rape except far more common. I.e. I remember an ex con telling how he was raped on his 1st day in the slamer. During his 5 year stay every single new prisoner got the same treatment. It's a tradition in that facility like hazing. Despite that no prisoner from there has ever reported being sodomized.
#2. The media reports things they have good evidence for. Hundreds of men report being beaten half to death by cops. Some even manage to obtain convictions. Only Rodney King had a video camera rolling while he was whipped into submission.
The good thing about the US though is that this sort of thing dose sometimes get pointed and cops have been kicked off the force or imprisoned for violating human rights. That alone makes the incidents less frequent than in Jamaica (my country) where cops kill 140 people each year on average and until Amnesty International made a stink, were almost never prosecuted.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
If you read the article you would also see that these people are also demanding that the government give them jobs. And just what principle does this fall under?
One of the reasons why their company went bankrupt was because their main customer, Telefonica, refused to paid their company for work that had been done. And guess what? Telefonica was at the time a government owned company.
The US drug war is pretty damn bad, however Stalin killed a whole whole whole lot more people then we have arrested (so far), let alone killed. Directly at least. If drugs were legal a lot of current drug related and organized crime death would probably be significantly reduced.
I don't know that they want guaranteed jobs, but they want the old ones back:
Emphasis added, otherwise a direct quote from the CNN article. I totally agree that they should receive pay for any period they worked, I don't know enough to say anything about getting their job back.
Does "pirated utilities" mean illegally copied versions of Norton Utilities, or tapping into electicity/cable/phone lines for free?
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Telefonica sold the company but there are documents proving that the Telefonica haven't received yet all the money they sold the company for, so the company still can be from Telefonica if they reclaim, also take in care that in Spain you cannot fire people without paying all the pendent wages.
Also in this there is the government implied since they sold the company as return to the money the Miami mafia put into the election of our actual president, so I think there are enough reasons to make this a civil problem, don't you think?
May the source be with you!
OK, nice points from a foreign country, now let me explain this to you.
I live in Spain ans I work on a internet tech company.
1- Living here in Spain is as expensive as living in usual places in the US, but far more cheap than living in NY or in SF.
2- Most of the companies here doesn't permit siesta, that's a wonderful image created in foreign countries by people of the south of Spain, in big cities (like Madrid or Barcelona) people get 1 hour to eat, 2 hours as maximum (depending on the company policy) and in this time you cannot do siesta
3- This tech people have gone to unemployment and they have offers to go to another companies, but they are in their right to protest because the company that went to bankrupcy is owned by a country company (Telefonica), and they don't want to pay the pendent wages, that's quite miserable from the government and Telefonica (considering that telefonica is miserable per se).
4- Get off your image of Spain, come here and try to do some work, you'll get amused.
That are my 0.02 Euros =P
May the source be with you!
Golden Gate Bridge? Surely the Bay Bridge?
[FX: searches for "gibson squatters bridge"]
Seems like he put them on the Golden Gate Bridge in one book and the Bay Bridge in another. I don't think there were squatters on both in either book. Weird.
While the AC is clearly either naive or a troll (his "If he hadn't run, he wouldn't have gotten shot" logic is hilarious), ad hominem attacks aren't much better. I thought far more of your post before I got to the end.
Taking a guess that the poster is probably white isn't an ad-hominem attack, unless it's recently become somehow bad to be white in America that I didn't know about.
Thinking of the readership of slashdot, with the SES factors of income it takes to be interested in technology, have internet access, and percentages on the internet, I think it's fairly safe to guess (although I have no way of knowing that I'm right/wrong) that the poster was white. The reason I was pointing that out is that its very common for whites in the suburbs who have never seen inner city cops to act as apologists for cops because they never see the things people are so angry about when it comes to the cops.
That's what I was trying to sum up when I said that. And I don't think it's an ad hominem attack. If I tell you "you are a white man", do you think that it's an insult or an attack on your character?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
For someone supposedly trying to point at abuses of prejudice from the police you dish out a very aweful injustice yourself.
Tell me, do you think they're equivalent? I may be unfairly representing cops, that's just my admittedly heated opinion about them from the kids in my highschool that I've seen go on to become cops.
Do you truely think those you describe could ever grow up wanting to hurt innocent people? Then you have very little grasp of reality. Those in the circumstances you describe often grow up to be very humble and honourable people with a real desire to uncover the exact same issues you are describing.
Certainly there are good people who were like that earlier in life. What I'm trying to say though is that the occupation of police officer may attract good people who want to make the world a better place, but it probably also attracts people who want to have authority and power over others. Cops make split second decisions on whether people live or die, and we both know that there are people out there that this really appeals to. Those are just the people that shouldn't be cops. IMHO, those are the types of people that end up committing these crimes against the people they patrol.
What you have said here started off well but you have proved that even wise words can come from an idiot. Think about what you're saying, some of those picked on, were picked on for standing up against the crowd, for being themselves when pressure to conform was highest, for not allowing the other picked on kids to go it alone. For helping the weakest amongst them. Being Heroes if you like. Yes, we hated them at school but look back again, they are the least of our wories in society now. In fact, you are probably still one of their nighmares.
Why is it that of the entire post you pick out this one small portion of my personal opinion to attack? Did it hit a raw nerve of some sort? I was like this on highschool too, but I didn't end up becoming a cop. I wasn't one of the people who picked on those kids, so I doubt I'm still in their nightmares, but I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack me as an "idiot" for expressing personal opinion.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
Such a thing could never exist in the U.S. for longer than it took to load up the tear gas grenade launchers.
Yeah...not many people know that the Quebec protesters stopped getting tear gassed only when the cops RAN OUT of tear gas.
The cops in the US (and surrounding US events, like the meeting in quebec) certainly aren't as shy as the cops in other parts of the world. I mean, they do shoot unarmed black men who are running away. They do sodomize suspects in bathrooms with broken broom handles. They do shoot guys something like 40 times for pulling wallets in a dark alley. And they do beat the bejeezus out of motorists who aren't offering any resistance.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
So by your logic, since cops are evil since a few cops commit crimes, black people are very evil, because many black people commit crimes. Yay for collective labelling.
Are you intentionally missing the point? It's not crime in general I'm talking about, that was your "collective labelling". What I'm talking about is crime committed by cops which is specifically a violation of public trust and a misuse of their authority. Not everybody can even commit the same crimes as cops can, because they supposedly have the public trust, and they definately have power in the form of nightsticks and handguns.
It's a time-honored absurd form of arguing to extend the argument to something that clearly isn't included in the discussion and then attack the false conclusion instead of the original point.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
1) unarmed black (or white) men shouldn't run away, at night when an arrest warrant is being served. If he hadn't run, he wouldn't have gotten shot.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see the logic that running away from a cop deserves the death penalty. It's all so clear now.
2) The guy who sodomized the poor guy with a broken broom handle is now serving a lengthy stretch in a state prison, so what is your point?
Uh, that he did it? Regardless of whether or not he went to jail, he did it, and cops all over America are commiting other crimes as well. I think what got that guy was the media. If it hadn't been reported nation wide, his own police unit probably could have covered it up enough. That's another thing that makes me sick about cops. Their loyalty to one another forces them to lie for one another even when they know that one of their members is in the wrong.
Cops are people, and people break laws, what is important is that they are punished when they do.
But only when they get caught, which isn't very often. And even when they do get caught, it's a citizens word against a cop's. Who is the judge listening to?
4) Last I heard, the guys that beat down Rodney King are doing a stretch in a federal prison.
Whether or not cops are in prison has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, which is that they are often extremely brutal motherfuckers that are often willing to do some pretty nasty things to people. Cops are often small, small human beings. The type that got made fun of in junior high and could never get dates. Give them guns and clubs, and you get the crimes that I listed. Just because somebody went to jail for them doesn't mean they're any less horrible or any less likely to occur in the future.
But then again, you're probably a middle class whiteboy who doesn't have to worry about these types of things, since you're never a target. What do you care?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
I'd very much like to read a second source of this story, some organization other than CNN. Why? Read this story. Then read this overview of Jorge Mas Canosa, who founded MasTech which bought Sintel, and remember this line from the CNN story: "Next to his shack hung a poster of Che Guevara, the symbol of Marxist insurgency and early ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro." CNN's nickname "Castro News Network" is well earned.
For this particular story, I'd prefer a source that isn't biased as hell in favor of leftist slavemasters and against the man who fought their favorite one.
More on Cuban persecution: here and here.
Now I know why I like Neal Stephenson, Bruce Sterling, and William Gibson so much: This story reminds me so strongly of various plots and settings from their works. Highly cooperative high-tech squatter camps? Now if they just moved to the Golden Gate Bridge, or just outside of a high-tech research facility in Lousiana, or a bunch of floating junks orbiting a privately-owned surplus aircraft carrier, I'd really come down with acute deja vu.Cyberpunk is fun to visit, but sometimes I'm not too sure I'll want to live there.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
Y'know, there's a perfectly oily little Ford auto dealership near where I live, and for several weeks last year, a number of people were picketing it, apparently on strike or some such. Ordinarily, as the previous poster says, I would ignore it and carry on with my own business, but I was suddenly seized with curiosity, and stopped to talk to one of them.
"You guys have been here for some time," I said.
"Yeah, it's been a while," he replied.
"So what's the issue here?" I asked. "Why are you picketing?"
"We're not allowed to say."
"...Beg pardon?" I asked, incredulous.
"We're not allowed to say. We'll get in trouble if we do."
After probing further, I managed to "read between the lines" and discovered the dealership in question had hired non-union workers. But the idea that the pickets were prohibited from discussing their grievance struck me as Just Plain Odd. I didn't inquire as to where this edict had come from.
The world does not appear to be operating within rational parameters. Where's the reset button?
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
What's up with the last snide comment about "the time it takes to load up the tear gas grenades". Have you ever heard of the bonus army (1920s era WWI vets)? Strikes? Unions? People protest getting laid off all the time here in the states.
don't make such B.S. claims about the freedom of assembly and such. just be glad you aren't living in China, Cuba, Iran, etc, etc.
--sam
--sam
--sam
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Nice layman's explanation, Michael!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Siesta isn't lazy hours, it's sanity. Your body's natural rhythm is to slow down at around 2PM.
And just *imagine* how much nicer your life would be if you could knock off for a little nap in the midafternoon. Hell, give it a try for a month -- I'll bet you'd *never* want to go back.
One of the problems with the American headspace is that "live to work" is the meme, instead of "work to live."
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Since the whole thing resulted from government intervention it kinda makes sense to demand government intervention is setting it right.
Having no government intervention at all would be even better, but it's a long way from A to B.
-
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
As for what he is doing to stop police brutality in America, he is posting to Slashdot. Gee, how effective. When I see him doing something besides posting absurd deductions from specific cases to generalizations (one of the most common logic flaws, but an annoying one in a place frequented by logicians), I'll take him seriously.
But for all of his passion about police brutality on Slashdot, his home page is dedicated to GNU projects and world overpopulation. Funny, that. If he thinks the world is overpopulated, he should find the nearest cliff and jump off of it. Or maybe he should attack one of those evil American cops, since apparently they're just mad killers.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
If my company didn't pay me for two pay periods, I'd leave and not come back. Even if I couldn't find a tech job, I'd leave. Flipping burgers in McDonalds pays better than nothing. Staying around for SIX FREAKING MONTHS hoping to get paid is insane.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Secondly, by "cults" you are probably referring to Churches. Can you provide a citation for your quote? Can you show support for this citation's opinion from some 20's ministers organization?
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Yay! More ad hominem. =)
I maintain that he is a moron. His arguments are logically invalid. One of the premises of his screed against cops in the US is the behavior of cops in Canada. That's a moron, in my book.
Now, compare this to his claim that all US cops are bloodthirsty sociopaths. I wish he'd give his name and address, so cops can know who NOT to protect when he needs them.
"As for what he is doing to stop police brutality in America, he is posting to Slashdot. Gee, how effective. "
You'll excuse me if I point out the irony of this statement. =)
The difference is that I don't think police brutality is a serious problem in the US. Are there brutal cops? Sure. Is there something institutionally rotten about cops? Nope. I maintain that, by and large, cops are decent human beings who put their lives on the line for complete strangers.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Umm .....
The footage I saw showed a man lying down hardly moving, except for the occasional attempts to stand up. During all of this a beating was raining down on him. When you are having the sh*t kicked out of you, self-preservation kicks in. It is human instinct. Any attempt to "resist" arrest by that point was as a direct result of the "arresting" methods.
There has to be a cut-off point. Rodney King may have resisted arrest, but by the time the police had finished with him he was long past the point where he was resisting to a point that they could not cuff him. The fact is they overdid it, badly. IMHO (and somehow I think the opinion of the law as well) if they are resisting then the police can use forceful tactics UNTIL they can arrest him, not play with him like a cat plays with a mouse until they get bored.
complete with pirated utilities and computer access.
I wonder how the people whose utilities and bandwidth are getting stolen feel about this.
Such a thing could never exist in the U.S. for longer than it took to load up the tear gas grenade launchers.
It is truly amazing how people are ignorant of history. Mass non-violent action is quite common in US History going back hundreds of years.
This is, of course, bunk. Read up on the DC protests earlier this year. Take a look at all the restrictions to protesting on public grounds and then *you* tell me if people are still trurly free to protest in America's capital.
Happens here every day. They're called startups. Nex
I dunno about that. I consider drive-by's and gang warfare to be right on par with "serial killers/rapists".
Crime happens. White/black/yellow/red. Get over it.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Police are there to detain lawbreakers so that judges and juries can determine punishment. When a man resists arrest, the police then must use physical force.
Get this through your fucking skull: Never fucking argue with a motherfucker who has a badge and a gun and a nightstick and has the AUTHORITY to break any of those on your fucking head and you'll be alot better off.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
They weren't? Have *you* ever been in a situation like that? I have. It's scary as shit, you don't know if that person has a weapon, or anything. Besides, if you WATCH THE WHOLE TAPE, the police didn't start beating him until after they hit him 3 TIMES with a taser. THREE! And King refused to go down. (ever notice that the other occupants of the car didn't get beaten when they COMPLIED with the officers? They got out and got down and were left alone). After you hit a man with tasers and he STILL won't go down, you realize that you've got a real fucking whack job on your hands. I say they should've just shot the bastard, but hey, that's why I'm not a cop.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Considering I'm also a non-white male, your "sig" means relatively nothing. :P
They didn't "Beat" Rodney king senseless. he was already senseless and refused to acknowledge anything that resembles authority. What would you have done in their situation? He should be happy they didn't just shoot his ass. After 3 tasers, you bet I would. Then again,, that's probably why I'm not a cop.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
IIRC, in Max Headroom, it was mandatory for citizens to own a television, and it was illegal to own a television that had a power switch to flick off. These Spanish protesters are there voluntarily, and only have their comforts out of ingenuity.
< tofuhead >
--
It is still the dark of night.
Uhh, you can speak legally in Oceania without being a criminal, as should be pretty self-evident. You can of course still speak logally all you want. Criticising big brother is not a loegal form of speach, so of course they'd be take to room 101 if this were to happen in Oceania. I'd be pissed if a bunch of "protesters" criticised me too.
"Alchohol prohbition ... was a direct result of giving the women the right to vote."
/ am endment18/
/ am endment19/
Hahahahahaha! Learn some history, dude.
Prohibition: Amendment 18.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution
Women's sufferage: Amendment 19.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
This sounds like something out of Max Headroom, where even homeless people had TVs lying around.
ERTW
------
Nah, Che was a communist, and slash is an EXTREMELY right-wing place. Also, it's full of idiots. Che would be at k5!
Hear hear. I go to a college with a slightly insane curriculum, and my classes get out by 2 PM every day. At 2:30, I sleep until about 5ish. This is a Very Good Thing(TM), because I usually only get four hours of sleep a night due to various forms of insane work for whatever reason.
:)
Between the hours of about 2 and 6, I cannot function while awake. It simply does not happen. I like these brief stops in my work in the afternoon, because my dorm is really quiet and, quite honestly, it's the only time I can rest (I live in the party dorm this year, and though it's pure insanity most of the time, people go out to class and work in the afternoon while I sleep).
It's complex, but it works, and it works amazingly well. I rue the time when I will have to get a job in the working world, not because of what I'll be doing (I love my work, don't get me wrong), but because I will have to change my sleeping schedule so drastically that it will be some horrible form of physical torture for me.
No, I'm not kidding. I'm that weird.
-- BlueCalx | http://nickd.org/
How the hell do you know how often police get caught for their crimes? Where are you getting this statistic?
Cops are often small, small human beings. The type that got made fun of in junior high and could never get dates.Now this is obiviously complete bullshit. You have some beef with cops and your venting on slashdot.
These things have to be taken on a case by case basis. Do cops make mistakes? Yes. Are they sometimes overly brutal? Absolutely. But imagine the stress they have to put up with each day. Every choice they make potentially saves or destroys lives, frequently their own. If somebody looks like they're going to pull a gun, the cop has one second to decide if he lives or dies... what choice would you make? Police are people just like you or me -- don't condemn them just because they're cops.
The shame of it all is that your post is "Score:5 Insightful", when it's anything but.
"The days are very long and you have to keep yourself busy," said Jose Maria Casado, who used to install cellular antennas.
One can sympathize with the protesters, but they have to understand, that's business, and over here in the US it does happen regularly (people getting laid off without pay) and shamelessly by many in the technology industry [see FuckedCompany] however most people here simply move on to other jobs.
Are things that bad in Spain where they have to protest in such fashion because there are no jobs or something? Personally I would get another job and move on with life. Perhaps after I got another job I would use my own money to take them to court in an appropriate fashion as opposed to sitting around waiting for someone to listen.
Yes I know protesting for a cause is semi politically correct, but being without work isn't going to pay my bills, and I'll be damned if I forcefully made myself live in a camp town when I could do as I said, make money then take them to court. They're lucky Spain doesn't have FEMA over there or that shit'd be over quickly
Want Root?
Such a thing wouldn't happen in the US because our unemployment rate is 4.5% while Spain's floats around 11%. Such a thing wouldn't happen in the US because those skilled workers would have been paid more while they were employed, and would have been hired the week after they were fired. Such a thing wouldn't have happened in the US, because the cost of living in the US is about 4/5ths the cost of living in Spain and tech costs about 1/2 the cost in Spain. I love Spain. It's a beautiful country. I wouldn't want to work or run a business there. The Spanish work lazy hours (Ciesta), regulation and red-tape abound, and it is impossible to get anything done. Great place to visit though. Friendly warm people.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Actually the Golden Gate Bridge and the various other squatter villages that were described in Gibson's novels were the most facinating to me and were the aspects of the novels that I most wanted in real life.
However yes this High tech squatter village is quite impossible here in North America, mainly because they're all within easy access of the police. Gibson got around this problem by using the Golden Gate bridge. Basically the people just climbed to the very top of the towers and waited until the police left them alone.
I believe the term cyberpunk at it's simplest is a combination of the idea of cyberspace created by william Gibson, and the anarchistic lifestyle hardcore punks lived, but applied across society.
Basically I think cyberpunk is a society that has become technologically advanced to a point in which the world has become a true global village and thus the governments can no longer truly control anything and power has turned over to large corperations. basically because of the intrustion of the networked computer into everyone's lives the world has gone into a state of anarchy.
Cyber = networked computer punk = anarchy
The Chinese saw the evils of drugs (remember the Boxer Rebellion?) and faught the British who were forcing opium on them.
I felt the drug war is an excellent example of why the western world is not free, or based in liberty
We have freedom (albeit not much since we're being disarmed) but I don't have the right to go and rape. I might feel great for a moment as my thighs quiver while I penetrate that really hot cheerleader but it hurts society more than it helps me.
Just because you don't like churches doesn't mean everything they've done is evil. You don't have to toss the baby out with the bathwater. That kind of logic is popular with Demopublicans. Show some logic instead of sophistry.
Unfortunate, but true. Well, more power to the world. It will be nice if there ever comes a time when no significant distinction can be made between one country's freedoms and the next country's freedoms.
Sigs are awesome huh?
from the front lines of deregulation.....
Hey, you think your house is cool?
-Legion
-Legion
If everyone had a handgun, we wouldn't need as many cops.
>"Such a thing could never exist in the U.S. for longer than it took to load up the tear gas grenade launchers."
:-)
I don't know. Have you been to SoMa (South of Market) in San Francisco lately?
~Religion is O.K., as long as it gets you laid.
.....you realize a bunch of squatters living under blue tarps in a self-created techno-ghetto probably have faster Internet access than you
Your sig reads: It's GUYana, not GHana. Ahem. You can't wish an entire country out of existence.
Perhaps, on the odd chance that this person CAN indeed wish an entire country out of existence, you shouldn't be correcting him.
Kinda like Kids In The Hall and the "Little God Spot".
[blockquote]Funny that in the American Form of Capitalism that even other working class people will defend the "right" of the elite class to screw their own. It is frightening that people in this country are brainwashed to the point that they think that Corporations should be free to do ANYTHING including ripping off their workers for their pay and we are just supposed to accept it. You can be DAMN sure that the execs of that company left with big fat "golden parachutes". [/blockquote] This attitude is a recent abomination brought about by the rise of Generation-X. Generation-X typically favors the corporate "might is right" mindset. This will be the only generation in the post industrial revolution history of man that will be known for saying that a corporation is free to not pay wages for work already done. The only generation in post industrial revolution history to delude itself into believing that the solution to a dangerous or sweat shop style workplace is to seek work elsewhere. Most Gen-X'ers will not make it anyways. That was made plainly clear when their dotcom empire fell apart. They will learn the hard way that human rights are more important than corporate rights, when the working conditions go from bad to worse. They will find their paychecks not getting given to them, their paychecks bouncing, and they will find they aren't being hired because someone pirated their genetic information and used this pirated data to decide they are genetically unfit for a job. The jobs these losers will get, will require they work an extra 20 hours a week WITHOUT PAY. Free labor. And who will be there to save them? No one. They won't even be able to hop over to the NEXT job because that employer will smell blood in this market and subject them to the same conditions - if they'll hire them in the first place. Generation-X'ers and their dotcoms were themselves notorious for sexual harassment and exclusion of women. Consider the typical Gen-X'er's view towards the corporate state. A woman sues her employer over a genuine case of "You're gonna get fired if you don't suck my ----". In the Gen-X mentality she should have quit her job, gone job hunting elsewhere because of the deluded Gen-X myth that there is "always another job", and let the next woman fall into this creep's gunsights. They think the company will be punished by karma. WTF!?? I have two words for these morons: Larry Ellisson. Wealth beats karma, folks. And in the end, if no woman presses a lawsuit, ALL the jobs will be like this because horny loser male managers will not have any deterrence from sexually harassing their women employees. So it will be that if you are a woman, you must have sex with your boss to stay employed. And if a woman sues, guess what - she's got a huge legal bill to contend with. The corporation has billion dollar attorneys to fight her in court, and they can also PAY THE JUDGE OFF. Anyone who looks at the FTC decision regarding Amazon.com, knows there is no possible way the FTC could have found Amazon to be not guilty of fraud. What happened was, Amazon paid the FTC off. And that is what will happen to this poor woman in a sexual harassment lawsuit. Hopelessly outgunned by the facts, the corporation will simply buy a favorable judgement. And then as a slap in her face they might even counter sue for libel/slander. AND... they will also blacklist her. Good luck finding another job. Women as corporate chattel. Welcome to Centauri Prime, Susan Ivanova (that's a Babylon 5 reference). THIS would have been the fate of womankind if Generation-X's mighty dotcoms had managed to survive. Companies will laugh in their face as they sign service contracts with these apathetic Gen-X'ers, set a price for goods delivered in stone for the length of that contract, and then raise that price right in the middle of the contract. Take DSL. Whatcha gonna do? Not pay? Great. You lose your service. And no one else exists in your area to give you service. You can't sue the company for breach of contract because you can't afford the attorney and they won't take it on retainer. So the corporation will just breach your contract, piss in the face of contract law, and you will sit down and LIKE it. Or else you will be without service. Permanently. Even if you cam afford and win the case, the ISP can then cut you off and you still have no service. Whatcha gonna do......SUE 'em again? And to be extra nasty that ISP will make your case public and your employer will see this and realize you're not a ball player and fire you for no reason. Right to work, baby. WHOOPS!!!! All of this is already happening!! These cowardly lapdogs that make up Generation-X will pay dearly for its cavalier, apathetic ways, as the corporations strip away from them every single human right that their parents once enjoyed.
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Just out of idle curiosity, what's the source of information underlying your stereotyping?
It is high time we got over the "if it's good for GM, it's good for America" propaganda bullshit and realise that corporations need to be held accountable for the damage and destruction they have on people's lives. Corporations think that destroying the lives of thousands who loose their jobs to make a buck (Pan Am) is commonplace, but they also think nothing of mass murder (Union Carbide in India) supporting dictators (United Fruit and many others in Central and South America) and slave labor (Various Oil companies in Burma).
The attitude of "anything to make money is OK" needs to stop. If that were REALLY true, GM would sell crack, which is pound for pound more profitable than a truck. The law can and should stop corporations from hurting people, whether it be selling crack or leaving people jobless and destitute because they stole the money due to the workers.
We say that this is a country formed by the people, for the people but act as if it is just for the rich and elite. The time has come to start thinking like we, the people, count more than the corporate Power Elite and look to these people as examples.
What about all the good police officers you don't hear about? Saying all cops are bad based on the quebec riots or any other single incident is just as stupid as saying that all the protestors in Quebec were violent protestors that were destroying private property.
Hi,
t m
I know it seems odd for we to take the discussion from squaters->anarchy->drug war, but the way I responded relates to the way I perceived what I thought was an abuse of the word "anarchy". Bear with me for a second.
Specifically, the squaters may be viewed as anarchists, but IMHO, only if the western world is true to the concepts of liberty and freedom...I felt the drug war is an excellent example of why the western world is not free, or based in liberty...we are taught that we live in freedom and liberty, but, like the squaters who had their paychecks stolen, this may well be an illusion.
Your requests for further notes on the puritanism and temperence of early America, and its influence on alcohol and drug laws, can be found below:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/media/pw2.h
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wod.html
There are also more stats on the prison figures, that other posters have requested.
BTW, I learned a lot of this from my Dad, who is 80 years old. He remembers how the mobsters fought and killed people for their alcohol turf. He despises the "Drug War" and urges all to review the stats, and free our non-violent American citizens for treatment, as I do.
It's too bad so many older people who remember the errors of the past are not given more of a voice. The drug issues is a billion dollar enterprise from a number of points of view...law enforcement, incarceration, masses of money ($100 or more for a tiny bindle of powder which costs approximately $0.25 to produce!) lost productivity due to incarceration of non-violent, treatable citizens, the violence of the illegal market.
Thanks for the reply,
S.D.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
You accuse me of sophistry when you have made the logical error of linking child molestion and drug use?
There is no scientific evidence to support such a link. This assertion is as crazy as saying "being a christian leads to child molestations" -- certainly, you have seen the various instances of molestations by church officials in the news over the years.
Or perhaps the Ministry have had their sins washed away by the blood of the lamb of God? Yet you won't free non-violent Amercians from prison for treatment? (BTW, child molestation is a violent crime--I don't suggest child molesters should be freed!)
The boxer rebellion? Lost productivity in Britain? I don't advocate the use of drugs, I advocate treatment of drug users rather than incarceration in what is obviously a failed, corrupt venture that burns billions of dollars and kills many people -- due to the freaky women at:
www.actu.org
...who want to take away just about anything that would take your mind away from the Lord Jesus.
PS: I've read the scholars' translation of the Quelle...and think Jesus was magnificent. I also think the western pervesion of of writings is a pathetic sheep-leading joke.
Good Day!
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
www.wctu.org
(sorry)
taking away your personal freedoms for 127 years and counting.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Finally, the ultimate link:
http://www.tfy.drugsense.org/Beck1.html
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Anarchy?
The US has a drug war.
The US has more people in prison, by percentage, then Stalin did in the former USSR.
The prohibition laws against drugs and alcohol were proposed by the USAs cult leaders, who complained that "one could not properly serve the lord while under the influences of these substances"
America's prison industry is the fastest growing segment of the economy.
Treatment, not tyranny.
Free America's POWs. End the drug war.
For more information, see:
http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/buckley1.html
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
You know, I read your post, and it is viable, and I agree with most of it to a point. But then I look at your .sig, and get very very confused...
Karma: Good. I'm hoping in the same way as pizza is 'good'...
I'm sure you'll be saying that to his face when you demand they find your stolen car. Or telling them how much you hate them when that crackhead breaks into your house at 3am.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Its not fine however when you start breaking the law. I have no problems with peaceful protestors who stand around and wave signs. Its when they start blocking traffic or throwing objects, or interfearing with business.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
This strikes me as more disturbing than odd. But, since Mattel attempted to silence me I can understand where they are comming from. The dealership may have got an injunction or threatened a lawsuit to keep them from talking about it. There are statutes to prevent that, but it costs money to protect your own rights until a few large corporations have been required to pay large amounts of money because they used abusive litigation to extort silence.
Fight Spammers!
On the issue of risks, you are correct to an extent. But, that has it's limit -- look at OSHA and workers compensation.
ON finances, how much research are you supposed to do? There has been cases where courts have held that On a job interview, I asked if the company had income or if they were getting angel funding. I worked for a place that owes me over $20k in back pay, but they have no money. It's common in the .bombs. In one place, my first paycheck bounced.
Fight Spammers!
Fight Spammers!
Here in the USA, many people seem take the attitude, "Get over it and work for a living or If you any good, you'd get another job.
How many times have you walked by a building with two people picketing and not paid attention to why they were picketing? It seems as though many people don't care about an issue until it effects them.
Fight Spammers!
Not quite. You offer me a two-year job, sign an agreement, and after eight months you stop paying me. I can't leave, since the agreement binds me, so, I go on working, hoping to be paid soon; and after not paying me in six months you decide to fire me. Isn't the agreement binding my employer as well? :-)
(Yes, there are courts. They're widely used. That's why you can't resort to them <g>)
If the contract is indefinite, the employer suffers penalties if he fires you; in the same way as you suffer penalties if you quit the company.
If you're paid as a consultant (contrato por obra) then you have more reasons to picket (and sue, and...) if you aren't paid :-).
If you think you'll need those workers for some time, you should hire them as consultants, or some similar arrangement. At least, if you hire them indefinitely it is because you foresee that you'll need them in a more-or-less long future.
Ah, and if you think you'll need them for a short time you can hire them for a temporary employment agency.
And finally, if your employees have long-term contracts and your company is having a bad time (near-bankrupcy, really too many workers) there are a couple of legal ways to dump people, having the State pay part of the compensation, etc, etc.
Ged a bedsheet and put it on you fucking hick.
The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit: /.'ers since Spring 2001.
Pissing off hyper caffeineated
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Also, something about being judge, jury, executioner comes to mind.
Cops are not supposed to excercise punishment for crimes, at least in the USA.
Of course, your hailed democracy is one where you can be taken to prison for a minor traffic violation.
Rock On...
The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit: /.'ers since Spring 2001.
Pissing off hyper caffeineated
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It has a lot to say about police brutality in the US.
I'm also sure, that The LAPD very much appreciates your view.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
King was fucked up - thrashing around at the cops. There were *MANY* cops - none of them was ever in danger... they were not justified in their actions - not even a tiny little bit.
They must be big George Lucas fans, if they're adopting Ewok technology to fight the evil empire...
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Did you read the whole thing, man? It is not about getting their jobs back - it's about getting the money the company owes them! BTW: Here, good job skills DO guarantee a job.
Strength, balance, courage and reason. If you know what's this about, contact me!
I know someone called Milan. He doesn't have cyber-rebels though.
___ www.lingo24.com Language and translation solutions - online
"LAPD - We treat you like a King."
Tastes Like Chicken
Could you tell me what a cyberpunk is? That really doesn't have anything to do with punk as I know it. I always thought cyberpunk was a punk, but he's got a computer or something. And this was not sarcastic, even though it probably sounds like it.
Also, punk is much more than just anarchy. Just being an anarchist doesn't make you punk. The labor strikers in the 30s who were anarchists were not punks. It's also not utopianism. Perhaps cyperhippy, although it doesn't have the same sound to it, would be more appropriate.
But thanks for explaining it.
Well, if they expected teargas, which if I'm not mistaken is fired in metallic magnetically reactive canisters, I would think that they could potentially set up a perimeter with electomagnets that would probably do a fairly effective job, if they have the materials needed to attract the fast moving canister. Granted they'd have to put quite a distance between the electronics and the magnets, or shield the hell out of them, but they could really really annoy the hell out of beseiging force's abilities to use non-deadly measures.
<sarcasm> Of course, here they'll just send lawyers at them, since as we know, lawyers must have some super power that causes us to need them in the quantities that we have... </sarcasm>
I still think that if one ever is going to build a compound that one thinks would be beseiged by a government agency, the first rule should be to have a larger audio system, so you can pump Bauhaus' Bela Lugosi is Dead at them at all hours of the night and day... *grin*
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
Madrid is a city in Spain. If you are over the age of thirteen and you don't know that, I really have to start to question the education system that you came through, for most students study Eurpoean history in high school, and learn about Spain and its cities at SOME point...
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
> Anyway, it looks so socialist to demand guaranteed jobs from government...
No no no... the term "socialism" is soooo passe. Now we refer to it as The Green Party Platform
and yes... jobs are guaranteed. A decent economy and industrial base, however, are not.
------
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!
"Such a thing could never exist in the U.S. for longer than it took to load up the tear gas grenade launchers."
He seems to be saying that the U.S. government prefers violent rather than socially sophisticated solutions.
Bush's education improvements were
"Such a thing could never exist in the U.S. for longer than it took to load up the tear gas grenade launchers. " The reason why this situation wouldn't exist in the U.S. is not because the US is some fasci-mili-totalitarian state as the above quote implies. The quote has it partially right, it does have something to do with "rule of law" as opposed to mob rule. You won't see american hi-tech workers in shanty-towns because in america, if you have valuable job skills you can get a job. really far out there, huh? In spain, evidently, good job skills don't guarante a job, because the free market has been socialized, manipulated, and otherwised f-ed with. is your job so important to you that you'd go to these extremes to protect it and get it back? probably not, because in america we have mobility of capital and persons...you can get a new one... in spain, the fact that these highly skilled workers aren't capable of just getting new ones... should tell us that they are far different economic environment, one with, as this article suggests serious inefficiencies
Thank you, that's the funniest damn thing I've seen all day. You just made my day. Your sig reads: It's GUYana, not GHana. Ahem. You can't wish an entire country out of existence. Perhaps, on the odd chance that this person CAN indeed wish an entire country out of existence, you shouldn't be correcting him. Kinda like Kids In The Hall and the "Little God Spot".
Apparently you, like the judge, are ignorant of the law.
The police are not there to provide punishment. If Rodney King deserved anything for his behavior, that decision is not to be made by police officers. It is to be made by a court from a menu of legally-sanctioned choices.
Once you say that a police officer is justified in selecting and carrying out punishment in the field, you might as well abandon any pretense of justice. Just use the money you're spending on courts to hire and outfit a great big pack of thugs, and set them loose on the streets to beat anyone who "deserves" it.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
When someone resists arrest, the police are authorized to use such force as is necessary and sufficient to make the arrest. They are not authorized to then go ahead and beat the person senseless as punishment. Police are not authorized to punish under any circumstances.
Fortunately the police do not, as I've said above, have that authority.
In any case, the real advice is, don't argue unless you are going to be good at it.
Police officers have as much a knack for self-preservation as anyone else, and they can tell if you know the boundaries between your rights and theirs.
-- raju1kabir, who is a nonwhite male, and who argues with mishebaving police any chance he gets, and sports no broken bones as a result.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
If you saw the full tape of the Rodney King beating, you might have a different thought on it. They did beat him mercilessly, and they went overboard. The problem is that he deserved a good beating for refusing to stay down when they finally got the guy. No, they shouldn't have whacked the guy so bloody hard, but that is why the cops who did this beating are NOT IN JAIL!! They got off with a reprimand because the judge saw the WHOLE TAPE. Our media didn't allow us to see the whole tape as it was more sensational to just show a couple of cops whacking the back of some poor black man's head. They didn't show him resisting arrest.
Sorry, my rant for the day. I just get so fed up with people's uninformed opinions when the reason they are uninformed is because of an intent to deceive by the media.
My name fits again.
At it's peak, 1 out of 3 Russians served time in the Stalin-era Gulag. That's a bit higher percentage than citizens in the US with prison time.
Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
They have legal rights protecting them from being fired just like that (unlike the US) and that's the demand. Yeah, we do have rights against that sort of thing.
-------
"People who do not break things first will never learn to create anything." -Philippine Proverb
Aah Your cops are too nice. I seen cops blow people brain in my country. Just because they didn't like how the other dude look.
I don't think part of an argument as to whether or not cops are "small small people" who could never get a date in highschool, and the ramifications thereof re:brutality is particularly insightful. It is kinda interesting, in a car wreck kind of way, though.
Today is a good day to die. They all are, though.
Thank you, AC, for expressing it more clearly and concisely than I could have. Workers in other countries need protection like that. Employers need to be accountable. Not subject to arbitrary laws that tie their hands, but accountable.
Fight for your right to read books!
Pardon me, Mr. or Ms. Burbilog, but if you'll read the blinking article, you'll see that the sqatters aren't "demand[ing] guaranteed jobs from government," they're asking the government to force their former employer to hand over the back pay it owes them, and to punish that US-based employer for (as they see it) screwing the workers by abandoning the Madrid company.
This is one of the problems with this particular global economy, and with the corporation as an economic unit. The corporate structure separates the owners of a business with the operations of that business, and allows for no accountability for corporate actions. The "globalization" that protesters complain about is simply a further separation of work from money, so they're in separate countries, so them that calls the shots don't even need to think about them that does the work.
We in the US need a similarly robust culture of protest against corporate injustice. It existed in the early 20th century, the era of the muckrakers, the Sherman Antitrust Act, and the labor unions (yes, I know unions have gone way off track, but the impetus to form them was real). What we need is a squat-in like in the article, not a sit-in by rich kids in some president's office at an elite ivy-choked institution, but by laid-off workers at a corporate site. Whoo hoo!
Fight for your right to read books!
I think the idea is not that there wouldn't be any rulers (whether corporate or governmental) and ordinary people obeying the rules, but that echnologically literate people would be most able to evade or resist the "system" via such things as cryptography, sabotage, self-sufficiency (generating or stealing electricty/communications), working as a contractor rather than an employee of the corporations, etc.
True the Drug War is a mistake... but that only effects a very small part of the population.
Isn't that the point? The drug war is just an excuse to beat on Blacks and Hispanics, right?
Reboot macht Frei.
If i wanted to remove the ghettos that generate all of that crime, What do you suppose I'd do? I'll bet that if you give the youth there something to reach for (like the chance at a house and a car and not not getting shot at) the crime rate will go down.
Of course, you have to also get the cops to stop treating them like criminals. I mean, if a black man is driving a mercedes, isn't it possible that he's just pulling a fat paycheck?
Reboot macht Frei.
It reminds me alot of the cities of geeks camped out to see Episode I. Only now they have a mission... This is way better than any realtime strategy game. You have actual motivation, real rewards if you win, a stockpile of ingenuity, resources, and the affection of the city (as evident by donated food etc...), comradery, but is it enough to shake the evil empire from its tall dark tower? There's probably marketability too. I know I'd rather watch the trials and tribulations of these guys every week than some smarmy MTV college kids, or whiny city slicker survivalists. Heck, I'd by a lunchbox!
Its about time... We are probaly going to see this kind of strike from this point on everywhere. Jobless high techs will just do what they know best, and whats happing in the Castellana is just of an exmaple og that. Wonder if Che guevara would have been a /. reader?
"You know, you do have the option of leaving this country if you don't like it."
How about if we stick around and try to correct what we think is wrong? Call me nuts, but running away from a problem instead of facing it is called "cowardly" where I come from. Oh, wait...
My .02,
My
Limekiller
"Taking a guess that the poster is probably white isn't an ad-hominem attack, unless it's recently become somehow bad to be white in America that I didn't know about."
From Dictionary.com:
"ad hominem: adj. Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives."
It goes on for a bit, you should check it out. The Latin root literally means "to the man". You've actually gone a step further, equating being white/affluent with clueless, but that's not even nessesary to qualify for this award. Bringing up the fact that I'm French is an ad hominem attack since it is an appeal to my motives rather than an address of my argument. It matters not one iota if being French is deplorable or if you even make any conclusion from that point. Bringing up anything at all about your opponent's person is classified as "ad hominem". Really. =)
My .02,
My
Limekiller
"And you miss the point. Anyone who thinks the US sucks is free to leave."
No, I do understand the point. I disagree, however, that leaving is a solution. It is possible to disagree with you yet grasp the issue. Really.
"The moron poster..."
Yay! More ad hominem. =)
"...he is replying to clearly thinks that cops in the US are animals on the warpath, while cops overseas are sweet and kind."
The message he is responding to can be found here and it says nothing at all about cops overseas being sweet and kind. In fact it doesn't make any mention whatsoever of cops outside of the US.
"As for what he is doing to stop police brutality in America, he is posting to Slashdot. Gee, how effective. "
You'll excuse me if I point out the irony of this statement. =)
My .02,
My
Limekiller
"I maintain that he is a moron. His arguments are logically invalid. "
Great. I didn't say he was bright, I just noted that it was "ad hominem" and as such illogical and irrelevant. Noting the problems with an argument is the way to be constructive ...well, if you're into that sort of thing. Anyone can call someone a moron.
"The difference is that I don't think police brutality is a serious problem in the US. Are there brutal cops? Sure. Is there something institutionally rotten about cops? Nope."
Their own Internal Affairs bureau might take umbrage with this statement.
"I maintain that, by and large, cops are decent human beings who put their lives on the line for complete strangers."
I can't say I've ever met a police officer who fit this mold. Generally, they're in it for a paycheck like ...well, just about any other job out there. I'm not saying they don't exist, but if you expect me to believe that a significant number ("by and large") are altrustic protectors of truth, justice and the American way, I'll suggest that such an environment would make police misconduct a very, very hard thing to get away with. Think what you want about Mumia Abu Jamal, but the Chicago Police are ...stunningly infested with self-admitted corruption. The Los Angeles PD was on the brink of having the government take over perations for the same.
I regard the police as a pretty regular threat to my well-being. I am white, middle-class and 28. Recently, I stumbled across a rape-in-progress in South Boston. The officers I dealt with were professional the investigator was as well. And they all seemed honestly concerned. But I also was present at the debates at Boston University where Ralph Nader was turned away. I witnessed -- firsthand -- what cops do to peacefull kids sitting down. I know that cops can be thugs and that they tend to be thugs in packs. So for the previous person to paint police as animals is wrong. And for you to whitewash them as altrustic is equally as bombastic.
I have an idea. How about if we give police credit when it's due and sqwish them into oblivion every single time they abuse that authority? Not sometimes. Not when it's politically expedient. Every single time. Foster an enviornment where fellow officers are more afraid of staying silent than speaking up. And again, a little constructive communication wouldn't suck. Which means not calling your opponents morons.
"Go ahead, mod me down. You're still an idiot."
My .02,
My
Limekiller
"2) The guy who sodomized the poor guy with a broken broom handle is now serving a lengthy stretch in a state prison, so what is your point? "
Uruk replied:
"Uh, that he did it?"
Not to mention that not a single police officer that heard Volpe bragging about the incident reported it. This, to me, is more telling than the act itself. Sodomizing Louima was the act of one coward. Everyone keeping silent points to an entire system which teaches cops that such things are tolerated. I can't condemn an entire force for the actions of one, but I can sure as hell condemn them for not throwing that one to the lions. And yes, you did address this, I just wanted to elaborate a bit.
Uruk added:
"But then again, you're probably a middle class whiteboy who doesn't have to worry about these types of things, since you're never a target. What do you care?"
While the AC is clearly either naive or a troll (his "If he hadn't run, he wouldn't have gotten shot" logic is hilarious), ad hominem attacks aren't much better. I thought far more of your post before I got to the end.
My .02,
My
Limekiller
You know what I would like to see the percent of Cops that break the law... I have a feeling that number would be the same as the number of citizens that break the law. Wouldn't that be funny. See the thing is Guy sodomizes co-worker and is caught. Zero publicity. Cop sodomizes prisioner. The media goes nuts. We always treat Cops, Politicians, Movie Stars, etc. As if they are better but the truth is they are the same. As more my town. The police force is mostly hispanic (which breaks one sterotype) and for the most part they are pretty nice people. And this is one of the ten largest cities in Amrerica.
Read Locke's Treastise on Gov't sometime. We give up freedom for the common good. Your definition of freedom is anarchy. Should I be free to drive drunk? Should I be free to shoot someone? Should I be free to rape someone? No, No, No. True sometimes the government goes to far (damn liberals) and puts laws on private choices. But its also true drinking and smoking age limits were put into place because the majority of Americans wanted them. You have to remember thanks to politics the US Gov't doesn't do shit unless most people agree...why? Because they all want to be re-elected.
Cyberpunk is a high-tech outside the laws group. It is hackers, illegal-cybernetics, and the whole sha-bang of charecter types from Gibson et al books
True the Drug War is a mistake... but that only effects a very small part of the population. Ghettos mainly. Stalin didn't have so many in prision because he just killed them. Also the KGB kept the people in line so they were afraid to break the law. Alchohol prohbition was proposed by Women's Sufferage advocates. And it was a direct result of giving the women the right to vote. The majority wanted it. Our Drug policies are not as harsh as most countries. That quote about the prison industry has been circling around since Euguene Debs said it back near the turn of the century. I almost garruntee that the tech-sector beat it out until the Nasdaq adjustment. But I do agree legalize the softer stuff and tax it to hell.
Germany and the rest of the EU don't have a crime problem because where they don't have as many petty crime law, they do have strict enforcement of laws. I'm just saying the way Americans think. The people of this country decided that we should have anti-drug, and anti-alchohol, etc. etc. and so we do. We also decided to not let officers carry sub-machine guns unholstered and to have futher limitations on our police, including accountability of actions if the public disapproves. I remember in Italy the cops did what they wanted to and no questioned what they did. I had a friend who was sexual harrassed by a cop in Italy and there was nothing she could do. In America, you call the press, call a lawyer, file a complaint, and you can get a settlement or the cop suspened.
You know what I would like to see the percent of Cops that break the law... I have a feeling that number would be the same as the number of citizens that break the law.
So people with specialized training, who are (hopefully) psychologically profiled and placed out in service of the public to protect them from people who "break the law" have no higher culpability than Joe Sixpack?! The logical upshot of this would, of course, be that everyone should get a handgun and a permit, be given arrest powers against everyone else, and disband the police altogether. (For why shouldn't I be my own police since the uniformed people are "no better"?)
Religion is the opiate of the masses. The wealthy smoke the real stuff.
Ahem. You can't wish an entire country out of existence.
From http://www.ghana.com/republic/
Guyana, on the other hand, is a country in South America. South America != Africa. Guyana and Ghana are two separate places.
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Mmm... delicious white marbles...
Well, he can wish it, just like I can wish for 40 billion dollars, but I doubt either wish will accomplish anything. =)
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Mmm... delicious white marbles...
Viva Franco !
Haga la guerra, no paz.
...and you can't blame meteors for everything.
Would you want anarchy to take over the law ?
This what this whole process amounts to.
...and you can't blame meteors for everything.
Oh really, if Whites were so bend to get rid of Blacks all they would have to do is leave them alone in their getthos.
Ever seens crime stats from cities like Chicago ?
...and you can't blame meteors for everything.
As always, Blacks can do wrong; it is us Whites who are responsible for every misdeed that happens to them. ...
...
Forget the fact that out of all Black people in the entire world, AA here in US have by far highest standard of living.
How is that White youths have something to do and somehow manage to find their way in life, it is only poor Blacks who constantly need guidance and never-ending help?
For the last 20 years we gave them free housing, lowered our standards to allow them get into colleges and what do we have here? Half of them still end up in correctional facilities, the notion of family almost completely disappeared among them etc
Remember, all these things happened in the last 30 years when Blacks were free
...and you can't blame meteors for everything.
"...a time when no significant distinction can be made between one country's freedoms and the next country's freedoms."
I feel that time is coming, has been since the middle of the 1800s.
It's just that the waves of freedom have to overcome the cement of oppression. "Waves" vs "Cement"? No contest! Just takes time and the friction of suffering...
I applaud the Spanish folks! Being moral demands being free. The new "waves" of "freedom" that are surfing the biosphere somehow smell freer than this old American air...