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Linux goes to Hollywood
j2brown writes: " Yahoo! News has this little article about IBM taking Linux to Hollywood. " It's not a very in-depth article, but it is interesting that Big Blue is saying that Hollywood will be moving their rendering stuffs to Linux in the next 12 to 18 months. Wonder how SGI feels about that.
What does this have to do with 'accessing paid-for media on Linux'??
Your first point is totally redundant.
MPEG-2, CD and other consumer format playback is no problem under Linux.
In case you have been living under a rock, you CAN play encrypted DVDs under Linux, with hardware acceleration (Creative DXR3/Hollywood+) and without (Xine and others). This is a non-issue. DeCSS is out there, and it's as simple as dropping a deCSSing or CSS-bypassing plugin into your DVD player's plugin folder.
The legality of this is questionable in some countries, chiefly the U.S.A, but thats an issue for you to take up with your government, not Hollywood FX studios.
Hollywood FX studios use Linux because it's a cheap UNIX-like platform, which many people have skills with.
Until now, there hasn't been a cheap UNIX with Linux's capabilities.
Now Linux is here, it makes sense to use it because it is an excellent tool for the job these people want to perform.
This of course means they will retool those parts of their workflow that can take advantge of Linux's strengths..
How can you say this is 'BS'??
Hollywood FX studios are also completely different from the companies that actually produce, market and distribute movies, and none of the FX studios have anything to do with the decision whether or not to encrypt the final product, or which formats it will/will not be available in.
And since Windows isn't particularly popular in Hollywood digital content creation, your second point is irrelevant. Linux will not displace Windows in the corporate market because Hollywood FX studios use it.
Just look at IRIX's giant desktop market-share. It is, in many respects, a far better OS than Linux is, it is widely used by techs and in Hollywood, but nobody does their word-processing on it.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
You miss the point! It is not about the legality or illegality of the software, it is about whether or not we "allow" them to use the software (say Linux, Bind, sendmail, XFree86, apache which are all very legal AFAIK). The fact they might still have issue with some software that they are also not "allowed" use (e.g. ac3dec) is seperate to the licencing but the reason for it. Bottom line the post is a joke but one we should all remember for when we next meet a MPAA/RIAA/Dolby etc. bean pusher. What we would be asking them to do is to ignore the patent/copyright/whatever issue in return for us "letting" them use our software :-)
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Hey, Linus' brother was killed in a hollywood movie. Remember Swordfish?
uh oh, u did it......you posted a cheap stock price on slashdot.....today 60c tomorrow $1000.....seriously.
"
Of course you want to run a free OS on a render farm. The OS doesn't do much on a render farm. You have one app in there, crunching away. It needs network and file access. That's it. Just about any OS will work. So people use the cheapest one. That's to be expected.
The only market which GNU/Linux has knocked is the cheap-ass x86 cluster market. Not that there's anything wrong with this market; my employer is in the process of migrating an RS/6000 farm to x86. We'll save money and not sacrifice any performance, because our computing tasks didn't require that kind of hardware in the first place. But when you're doing real computing work, the type that can really take advantage of IBM's CPUs or SGI's memory architecture, there's no way you're going to use GNU/Linux. These UNIX systems are created and optimized for industrial RISC hardware; Linux is a cheap x86 toy with a big ego and a lot of poorly performing "ports." It's not surprising that UNIX is still used by those who know what they're doing and have access to awesome hardware.
The GFX industry doesn't really need the things that SGI, IBM, SUN, and HP have to offer. Their computing tasks aren't insignificant -- but they're so simple and easily parallelized that GNU/Linux on x86 just makes sense. It's cheap, fast, and it works. The big RISC companies are going to lose a lot of business in the next few years as people realize that you don't need sweet hardware for most computing. But UNIX on real computers will still have its place, and this place will probably never be touched by GNU/Linux.
--
I like to watch.
When I said the stick to beat them with I really meant that we should put the threat on the table as how the game could be played. If we are talking to anyone with a millionth of a brain they will know that this is entirely contrary to "our" principles, however same said people will also realise that they are hypocritical to make billions per annum off the back of Free software while denying it's application for harmless purposes. The people making the decisions at present on the software they use are not the people who decide to tell FreeBSD to stop linking to ac3dec (to take a recent example). We need to ensure that the people who want to take advantage of our software start kicking the sh*t out of the bean pushers and managers who want to screw us back.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Agreed... but even that is switching. Most of the inhouse tools and software packages are being switchted to Linux. The SGI Irix desktop will soon dissapear for most of the major studios.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
SGI effectively gives away their OS and you have to pay incredible prices for their hardware. For certain applications where real-time 3D performance or high-bandwidth memory applications is required, SGI and Sun still has the tools to beat the x86 platform any day. Real workstations still have many advantages over the best PC motherboards. But all of additional cost for SGI hardware is a waste if you are just number crunching.
However, the news that IBM and Alias are developing content-creation software for Linux is a very good sign. These are the tools that every artist would be using to push pixels, and that's the way to get a huge foothold in the Hollywood. That moves Linux for the room in the back to the desktop of each artist.
Final Cut Pro. IANAGP, but from what I've heard, this is a $1000 software package that is on par with software that costs $15000. The recent Discovery Channel documentary about North American dinosaurs was done with FCP, and I *think* that FCP was the only video software they used. The reviews of it have been glowing.
(Of course, we all know that Apple machines cost $1000 more, so the companies should buy cheaper Linux boxes and then pay $15000 for the editting software ...)
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
I am not sure exactly what you are refuting. I know that PRman is used for almost all CG in films with BMRT and Mental Ray filling in a few gaps here and there. Not all studios are working for film however.
I never said that PRman was new to linux.
Maya, SI, 3DS, LW, and Houdini are the serious 3D programs out there. They are the complete, commercial, 3D packages used for production work 95% of the time. Cinema 4D might be there too someday. Axis, being shown at siggraph was done entirely with 3DS. All of Blizzard's animation is done with 3DS. Those five programs are what people buy when they are in a production environment. I realize that there are many side programs that have special uses.
You are refuting statements that I have not made, so please, get a clue.
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What I meant is that there are industries that require specialized software and they aren't going to be able to obtain open source versions of it. I realize that there may already be open source 3D apps, but they are nothing compared to the commercial high end, which has had 15 years to mature.
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
If the movie industry begins seeing Linux as an asset and not a threat...
I think Hollywood's current overlords are too far gone to see Linux as a "safe" platform for them to release to. The MPAA is in a take-take-take mindset right now that will allow them to use Linux in the backend and threaten the people who produce software for Linux that goes against their wishes. The MPAA's current world view is that its copyrighted work is its exclusive and absolute property in all it's forms and where ever it may be found. I think Valenti genuinely believes in what he is saying.
It never hurt anyone to hope, did it?
No, it certainly doesn't, but one must be cautious. I think we're going to have to wait for the current crop of executives to all die off, and perhaps the next as well. Sooner or later the mood will change because free software and the philosophy behind it are not going away. The MPAA's current position, however, is self-defeating, and will eventually fade into the past.
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
This is almost completely false. Pixar used many Sun computers as their renderfarm, but I doubt Sun donated 1000 computers to them, and I didn't see a credit at the end. As for SGI's not being used in render farms .... http://www2.linuxjournal.com/cgi-bin/frames.pl/ind ex.html There is a picture on that page which proves you very wrong.
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
A -1 for offtopic? Wow. Somebody's got some issues. You can bury the post, but you can't bury the truth!
These applications are CPU bound. The OS of choice won't be doing much at all. As long as your machine is fast enough, the OS choice becomes a matter of preference. Solaris, *BSD, Linux, IRIX, HP/UX, even Mac OS X will do fine here. It's a cluster where application for rendering is parallelized (MPI/PVM type libraries). Or distributed, where the same application runs on a different data set on each machine. In any case, the OS is not a bottle neck, the hardware is. You only run a handful of processes, and you're not doing much I/O (unless it's fluid dynamics you're modeling, where I/O is important).
That is because IBM doesn't do anything until it has a solid business case. They didn't get involved in Linux until it becase viable for business and there was a proven track record.
IBM doesn't do anything "half-assed". They try very hard not to waste their money, and sometimes that means that they wait until others have blazed the trail before they follow it.
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
SGI is 60 cents (a share) away from oblivion. Unless they can pull off a miracle, which they couldn't do in the last 6 years, they'll be bankrupt next year. They should have sold the company years ago. What happened to increasing shareholder value? Fuckheads....
Excuse me. While it is true that the first two intel machines from SGI were workstations (linux runs on them, but it can't use the frame buffer), the next batch of machines, like the SGI 1400, SGI 1200, etc, are for rendering and serving tasks. These machines are mainly for linux (although initially at least NT was also supported). It wasn't until more recently (last year?) that SGI actually shipped a linux workstation.
You have to be careful about saying that things can be purchased for linux, even if it is sort of true. For instance, Houdini has been on linux for quite some time, but initially it was sold only bundled with HPs FX linux machines. These machines are notable because the use the HP-UX xserver on really high end hardware instead of using XFree like SGI does. I don't know what commercial user software runs well on SGIs yet. The SGI linux video hardware is not as good as HPs, and it doesn't look likely to change anytime soon either, which is too bad. The Quatro is fast, but it still misses important things like 10 and 16bit color depths, and really acurate rendering. Shake does everything in software, so that isn't an issue, but almost Flint/Flame, and Pihrana use the hardware for rendering, and so acuracy and color depth are extremely important with those programs.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
This 'joke' was lost on you :(
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/08/15/13172 04&op=Reply&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread& pid=25
ah! I see. Kthxbye.
This is yet another step in Hollywood's belt tightening. As more production is done in Canada or overseas to reduce costs, moving away from expensive licenses is one more way to conserve costs. And we all know how important it can be when you need to offer actors premium salaries.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
linux say: relax
-=tonyt=-
doesn't mean i can't dream. Seriously, are there any decent freeware 3d programs out there besides povray and its clones?
> It was similar to Dos/4gw (wasn't that it?)...
I remember that one fondly... It was a superb DOS Extender called PharLap.
Hollywood turns to Linux, Linux can't turn away
How could a sane person say that Linux will eat your Intellectual Property, when the biggest (and most hypocritcal) IP holders in the world are flocking to it. They are laughing all the way to the bank.
Film at 11
Mundie and the blundering pundits.
Technicolor rendered by Linux...
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
3D Studio is another story. It has a deep history of being rooted in WinNT
3D studio actually has a deep history of being rooted in DOS. Yes, the old Disk Operating System. Autodesk bought (I don't remember from whom, it's been five years since I've used it) a memory manager for DOS that did not work with win95 or NT. It was used untill the 32 bit versions of AutoCAD and 3DStudio came out (shame that they switched- they were getting much better performance from dos than from win). It was similar to Dos/4gw (wasn't that it?) that the old DOS games used.
Politics, Culture, Food?
So the only one who'll profit from this deal is IBM and the movie industry. The Linux developpers who made it possible get NOTHING.
That is what Business Week proclaimed 4 years ago and it still hasn't happened. Why? Because PDI, Pixar, IML, DD, and the like have millions of lines of IRIX code and there are still (gasp) things that O2's and OCTANE's can do that IA-32 machines can't. Hell, even SGI couldn't kill their IRIX desktops even though they have tried twice now. They have even announced possible follow on machines to the OCTANE because of the demands from the DCC market.
That is not to say that it won't continue to change over time (and the poor SGI 320 was a great but ignored step in the right direction) but I am sure sick of everyone not involved in this industry proclaiming it is going to happen tomorrow.
Linux will get there and you can bet your butt that SGI will be a big reason for that. Instead of rejoicing in their potential death, Penguin followers ought to be thanking SGI for selling the idea of Linux to Hollywood. Almost single handedly!
Your "solution" does not work because 1000 PCs have far more processing power than one mainframe when it comes to rendering, a pure CPU (FPU) bound task.
Mainframe excell in IO bound tasks.
Well, I ask about video because 3D and video interact with one another. 3D animation does interact with video when composited with live action footage. That's what I'm getting at. I bring up Flash and Director because people are using both and there are ways to incorporate shockwave content into video and ways to incorporate 3D into Shockwave and ways to incorporate 3D enhanced Shockwave into video.
I realize video isn't a strong point for Linux at this point, but what I'm wondering is what are people doing to overcome this shortcoming and make Linux 3D technologies interoperable with existing technologies. Or is there just a Holy War going on to supplant alll current means of content creation with Linux versions that are 5 years behind the times. If that's the case, Linux will never really break into video. People love their Premier and AfterEffects and Final Cut and Director and Flash.... especially on the Mac platform.
Pooty tweet
Now - Since they are using Linux (GPL) to create software, why is a moive not GPL too? Yes - a moive is software. the hardware for a moive on film is the projector. (hw=projector, media=film, sw=moive) On DVD... hw=player, media=dvd, sw=moive
At this point studios want CPU cycles cheap, and they are already comfortable writing toolchains on Unix.
Linux combines the best of both worlds, cheap fast PC hardware and Unix. One studio said they could afford to replace their Linux cluster twice as often as the SGI renderfarm (since it cost half as much) so they could keep themselves closer to the state of the art in processing power.
SGI used to offer awesome custom graphics acceleration hardware but custom hardware limits choice, and costs more than general purpose stuff. And the general purpose stuff is nearly as fast.
Um, changing to Linux for rendering in 12-18 months?? What rock has IBM been under? Visual Effects house have been using Linux rendering already for the past 12-18 months. Final Fantasy was rendered on a 1200 CPU Linux render farm (see the recent Ars Technica article can't be bothered to find a link).
7 4 ), sure other hollywood houses have them as well.
Lord of the Rings has at least several hundred CPU linux render farm of SGI 1200 boxes(see here: http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/9889828
SGI doesn't care because they sell a lot of rack mount linux intel render servers. The real next wave of adoption of Linux in visual effects is as 3d and compositing workstations. Maya, Shake, Rayz, Houdini all run fine on Linux with the right 3d card. The only reason Linux boxes don't dominate in Visual Effects is that high bandwidth playback eg playing 2k images in realtime of a disk array is not really possible under Linux. That's why they still have a ton of SGI octanes kicking around.
Hopefully, Hollywood will be willing to put some time and money into developing Linux. In the longer term, this would mean that we, the "regular users" of Linux would benefit from better graphics capabilities of the OS as a whole. Maybe this is overly optimistic, but you never know...
the DMCA outlaws unauthorised attempts to bypass copy prevention mechanisms, regardless of intent of use.
Read this: Title 17, section 1201... it'll do you a world of good. In short: you're wrong.
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
And yet Lotus iNotes still requires that you run Ineternet Explorer. I suppose the codenauts still live in a Microsoft world. I love getting the message "Please shut down your current browser and come back after starting Internet Explorer". Umm, sure... Now, where do I get that for Linux again?
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
SGI probably feels a lot better than fine considering they have been working and porting on Linux for years. What is the alternative, watch everyone move to Windows (I can see them forking out $200,000 for Win 200 licences for their 1024 PC render farm). SGI stated a long time ago that they liked Linux and that they were going to work with it. I think SGI and IBM are in competition here alright, but never forget that while IBM will provide lots of hardware, SGI has the high-end software expertise that Hollywood needs so they will be secure for a long while to come. I imagine you could see design houses with SGI workstations, IBM fileservers and a large cluster of commodity machines to do the dog work. This is roughly what happened (can't remember who provided the fileservers though) for Final Fantasy. IBM and SGI are targeting slightly different markets here still and I am fairly confident they will work extremely hard to ensure cross-compatability (where feasible) because they both want this market and would much rather share with each other than see themselves swamped if MS ever got a foothold.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
erf()
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Why do geeks always try to "sing" in their posts? Don't you understand that people don't know the tune you're envisioning just by "na na nanana"?
I hate you fucking geeks.
Many times, when Linux replaces a UNIX solution, it is keeping that UNIX solution from being replaced by NT.
As the original poster mentioned, the very high performance/price ratio of PC hardware is one of the driving factors. Before Linux appeared on most people's radar screens, the push was to get these types of things ported over to NT to take advantage of the cheap but powerful PC hardware. If Linux hadn't come around, today's headlines would all be about how WinNT is taking over Hollywood by allowing movies to be produced and rendered on cheap, powerful PCs.
A similar thing is happening in the area of engineering workstations, although more slowly because PHBs in engineering companies are less open minded and more conservative than those in 3D film studios. Five years ago, the almost unanimous prediction was that NT will have all but replaced UNIX on the desktops of integrated circuit designers by now. It hasn't happened. It hasn't all moved to Linux yet (again because the PHBs are more conservative than in the movie industry), but many vendors are de-emphasizing their NT products and are beginning ports to Linux. Time will tell if it will catch on as well as it has in the movie industry, but at the very least, it has forstalled a mass migration to NT.
Of course they're the same entity! Arguing that one group is nothing to do with the other because the only relationship they have is that one pays the other, tells the other what to do, and owns the results, is an absurd argument. This is a straight employer/employee relationship
Yet again you reveal your naivete. Producers produce films. Producers hire special effects folk. Producers in turn sell their work to distributors. And that's just a simplification of the relationships. Lumping them together is the same as giving you credit/responsibility for the work of Dmitri Skylarov just because you also believe in Linux.
It's funny that you say you have a job. You sound like a 13-year-old who has never stepped out of his mommy's basement.
I am an SGI representative and I say our lava lamps have a better random number generativeness than any other Linux system will allow. It's about our hardware. erm I'm'n idiot. Just buy are stuff will 'ya?
...although it can be done. Yes, SGI hardware is not a cost-effective rendering platform. The newer MIPS processors certainly have their strengths, but big SGI iron is really quite expensive. However, SGI systems are great for interactive modeling. Typically, you do all your artistic work on SGI, and then when it's ready, throw the bits at commodity boxen (or perhaps Sun hardware) for the final rendering. At least that's how I hear it's done. In my case, I actually do it in reverse -- I model on my NT box and send it over to the old SGI for rendering, only because the SGI is stable enough to leave on 24/7. :-)
man tunefs | grep fish
Since when does converting to Linux mean x86? I've heard many things about so-and-so using linux for this and that, but nobody ever mentions the arch. Since Linux runs on such other processors such as PPC, Hitachi's SH(Dreamcast, many WinCE, Zaurus), StrongARM, and MIPS, whats all the big fuss about changing their OS? Show some pride and acknowledge the fact that Linux is more than just PCs.
But I can still pick on you if you buy a POWER4 box just to run Linux and Gcc on it.
Lycestra
It would never work. All they need is for someone to report that it is illegal, and they have eveyr right to investigate and see if it is violating their patent/copyright/patent/whatever. Hell, if that worked, no BBSes would have been busted in the 80's, because they all had the "YOu may not use this BBS if you are a law enforcement officer" crap.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
Nvidia blah. FireGL kicks ass for 3D work on Linux.
For any more big-name roles. I mean... Look at Linux's performance in 'Anti-trust'. It was pretty dissapointing. Let's all chip in and get Linux some good voice coaching and poise training and see if its not ready for another starring role later this year.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
SGI says [...]
And they're absolutely right.
C-X C-S
Well considering the number of movie productions which are already using Linux I think we are already in a position of power (as I say a $100,000+ bill to license Windows for a cluster would make them think twice) and also I was implying that the BSDs would also join the embargo so they would be left with the choice of Win/Sol/Irix all of which would be far more expensive for a cluster of commodity hardware.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
"can't be everything to everyone and remain completely Free"...
:-)
I don't know that I agree with that, since the nature of Open Source is such that it can become whatever it needs to without having to fight over the issue. But...
Rendering on Linux seems just to be common sense from a cost standpoint. How much does an SGI cluster cost these days? I don't know. But I do know that a 128-node render farm made of second-hand Pentium II systems will probably run about
128 P2s at $200 each...
$25600
Sufficient network switches for the job, maybe 6 24-port units, call it...
$2000 or so
9 Shelving units, at $40/shelf to hold, say, fifteen CPUs each...
$360
free copy of Red Hat 7.1 copied off a junior techie's home system...
Priceless (er, free)
The numbers work out much better that way, even if you're using current equipment instead of the cheezy second-hand P2s I figured on above.
/Brian
On the contrary, I'd love to see Linux help the movie industry out. Because if they do, then the movie industry might actually see how great linux is and be much more kind to us (the linux community) in general.
Except you run up against the "many heads" issue. The same way that there are ISPs running their servers on Linux, but are "we don't support anything other than Windows and maybe MacOS if you are lucky" towards their customers.
Another cool thing: Renderman uses Perl for scripting and (I beleive) Python too.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Anyone remember all the traffic concerning SGI and Final Fantasy the movie. Well from yet another Yahoo blurb one finds that many of the machines used in rendering were running Linux.
Four SGI(TM) 2000 series high-performance servers, four Silicon Graphics® Onyx2® visualization systems, 167 Silicon Graphics® Octane® visual workstations and other SGI systems were used to create the film. Alias|Wavefront(TM) Maya® software was used for animation authoring on the SGI machines, and Pixar RenderMan® software was run on Linux® OS-based systems.
SGI is a strong proponent of Linux, I would think that it's more the prospect of IBM selling the machines that scares them.
There's probably other modelers and user interfaces from BMRT and POVRay. They may not be what George Lucas uses but they aren't shabby. I've seen some amazing stuff done in Blender and it is FREE.
'Same speed C but faster'
I would imagine that this opens up a real big need for open source efx software to match packages like maya, softimage, etc (yeah, i know how hard this is).
Anyone have any idea what types of free efx packages exist out there?
w o r l d w i d e w e b e r
It seems nice by the web-page, but I haven't taken a look into it yet. Would like to hear some opinions though.
The World's Best Music!
Blue Moon Rendering Tools
One catch... If they depend on SGI systems for the development end of their biz, yet refuse to support SGI for the rendering, they're pulling large ammounts of revenue away from SGI. So, what's going to happen to SGI's R&D budget? Where is the money for the new, inovative and more powerful systems going to come from?
This is the same sort of bind we find the die-hard Napster (or gnutella or whatever) user getting into. They want to listen to commercial music w/o paying for it, but if nobody paid for it, no commercial music would be made.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
Irix already runs on 32 processor shared memory machines. The old challenge family was shared memory and it had pretty decent performance....
Problem is the more processors you want in a shared memory system the more complex things become.
If the application is such that things can be broken down into individual tasks which don't overlap then, since you don't need the hardware to manage cache consistancy and bus arbitration, you may as well use a cluster anyway.
Go to SGI's web page.....they're pushing linux on Intel based servers for rendering. HP is saying it, AMD is saying it, how is this news?
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Where can you buy Baby Mulchers?
I work in the UK NHS, and we have ha some recent publicity problems regarding dead babies and foetuses that were buried in unmarked graves. A baby mulcher would bypass that problem entirely.
Is there a Journalist Mulcher available either?
actually, the biggest problems with DVD players on linux is not getting them licensed, since some company could always release a binary-only licensed player. The problem is the open-source kernel. One of the requirements of getting a license for a DVD player is that it is impossible to make screenshots of it. This is something you have to do on a level of the video driver software. So, suppose they made an X app, then it would either have to be incorporated into X, or incorporated into the kernel, and since both are open-source, that's impossible.
It's a dumb requirement anyway. It's like your landlord requiring that all windows are always closed to keep burglars out, but you can leave the front door wide open if you want to. Since you can always make a bit-for-bit copy of a DVD with the right equipment.
Love,
SGI
Why are they acting like this is something new?
Free Hans!
From LWN on HP's focus on the digital content creation market,
A ZDNet article (originally from the Wall Street Journal) about ILM and Pixar's migrations to Linux. Apparently Pixar were in the middle of a migration from an SGI setup to WinNT when they decided Linux was a better choice.
This is a pretty big issue so I feel I should run down some of the more important points.
First, yes, SGI offered Linux systems a long time ago and to my knowledge they have done very poorly. They were however for workstations and not rendering, as IBM's newest offerings seem to be. IBM is probably going into workstations too, but that isn't what the article is about. Many big companies with Big Money (TM) have invested a whole ass ton in SGI clusters over the years, from Onyx computers for compositing and play back, to Octanes for creation, to Origin's for processing job queues.
Everyone is switching to Linux. PC's are so cheap and close to what SGI has to offer that it stands out as a clear solution. Pentium 4's and Athalon 4's are including more features suitable to rendering. SIMD instructions are great stuff for all the vector math that goes on behind the scenes. Linux costs nothing so when you have 1000 computers in your render farm you aren't paying $200,000 in licenses every few years. It is stable so that also helps everything, especially rendering. When a frame takes 8 hours to render, you don't want to worry about the OS crashing 6 hours through. You have 1000 computers and if they don't all work smoothly you are fucked. Lastly, Linux is unix, and that's important for an industry coming off of other unix platforms, mainly Irix.
Software for Linux is Good Stuff (TM) in the graphics world. As far as rendering goes, you have the mighty PRman, Mental Ray, Blue Moon Rendering Tools, Jig, Entropy, and many other renderers. That's good enough for just about any studio. On the software front, you have the magic four (or five, depending on how you look at it) of Maya 4 , Softimage XSI 2.0, 3D Studio 4, Lightwave 6.5, and Houdini. Maya and Houdini run on Linux right now and can be purchased for a small (huge) fee. Lightwave is the most ported 3D application that I know of and runs on Amiga (earlier versions), Windows NT, Sun OS, Solaris, Mac OS, Mac OS X, and Irix. It shouldn't be a huge deal to port to Linux. 3D Studio is another story. It has a deep history of being rooted in WinNT, and didn't even run on NT for Alpha when Alphas were all the rage so only time will tell. Also compositing software like Shake is making its way as well.
Last on the list is custom software. Pacific Data Images (Antz, Shrek) has written lots of software for Linux and ported lots from Irix as well. Linux is unix of course and that means that all the custom software that no one wanted to port from Irix to NT is now being ported to Linux with ease, and that's a huge deal.
There aren't too many Free solutions in there, I realize, but Linux can't be everything to everyone and remain completely Free. I am sure there is a lot of GIMP action going on there but not many programs in the Free world are powerful enough to help out the big studios.
I hope that clears some stuff up!
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
How is that offtopic?
Female Prison Rape in NY
I assume you've read paragraph B without seeing the vastly more draconian paragraph (E), which explicitly overrides rule (B) and makes making anything whose primary purpose is to circumvent a technical messure that effectively controls access to a work protected by the DMCA.
I can't see how it's possible in practice to work around this: Indeed, paragraph B's conditions are well known to be toothless in practice, a case of politicians introducing paragraphs to make something look like it addresses an issue without actually doing so.
But, don't worry, you're allowed to decrypt a DVD, as long as you do it by hand.
Racists should be sent back to where they came from
Does anyone else see the crushing irony here?
The real problem is of course that Apple doesn't have any hardware that's up to the challenge. They need some good rack-mount servers similar to those that IBM sell. Rumors of these servers exist and should they be true, Apple will finally have what it needs to become a player in this industry.
There are still lots of "if"s but regardless, I'd like to see SGI, IBM, and Apple all fighing for this market. It should produce some great products...
Willy
Isn't it the MPAA that's against DVD? Isn't it because that they believe that Linux players reduce their stream of revenue DeCSS generates no royalties?
AFAIK, it's not the movie industry that's against Linux, it's the MPAA. Same with the music industry - are all artists united against Napster/P2P? Mostly no (except for Metallica, etc.) It's the RIAA.
Am I totally out to lunch here? Say something!!
As for the animation field, I would bet that if there were lots of programmers who did animation as a hobby, there would be free software tools that came quite close to the commercial products in capabilities.
Have you seen their financials? They're going to be out of money by the end of the year unless something really exciting happens. Their stock isn't trading for pennies without good reason. (As nice as their hardware is....)
First, we take Manhattan...
..then we take Berlin.
Hmm.. Somehow I always knew that this title would appear on /., it was just a matter of time.
Next one to wait for: "Linux does Dallas".
http://dtum.livejournal.com
Pixar's Renderman runs on Linux, and due to the wonderfully low cost of Linux and the cheap method of build your own machine, renderfarms in racks tend to run linux at many post houses.
Also, Square has entered the arena with one amazing ray tracer. For the white paper inclined, this is pretty sweet. It explains Maya and how it works with their custom app on Linux using Parallel proessing via the Pthread library.
http://www.squareusa.com/kilauea/
// john athayde
# x@boboroshi.com
# http://www.boboroshi.com/
I don't see what money has to do with it. If the movie industry begins seeing Linux as an asset and not a threat, then in general they might starting being a part of the community and see just why software should be free.... It's a long shot but hey... It never hurt anyone to hope, did it?
They really like to recycle their titles. The video game Streetfighter was made into a movie, and then they based a video game on the movie, now all they need to do is base a movie on that game.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I thought all Linux hacks drink a lot of Coke, no matter where they live...?
Breakfast served all day!
It's time for Slashdot to have a laugh at its own expense.
I think SGI likes it.
SGI sells linux boxes that can work as a renderfarm just as much as any other rackmount linux solution.
But this is where they should really like it. Hollywood has trusted SGI for years. SGI has major name recognition based on hardware quality and support.
Linux has been in Hollywood for a while now, chances are that the 3D that you see in current titles has had some Linux involvement along the way.
I know we are heading that direction.
All the studios I have talked with are heading that way, if they haven't all ready.
In my opinion, this is a place where VA could have made a name for themselves. Now, I think that the big Linux battle will be between HP, SGI, and the next person to have a killer 3D desktop. If I had to place money on it, I would be pulling for HP.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
Hopefully it won't end up like 90% of the people who go down that road, drugged-out, bimbo starlet doing softcore porn (and the director) to support it's escalating Coke addiction :)
Who wants to bet they'll still manage to put out multi-billion dollar "master pieces"....generally with nice fancy roman numerals next to the title to exploit the success of a previous successful movie (Jurassic Park II or III), or based on a video game that never really had much of a plot (Streetfighter).
"
I don't think Linux is in a position to threaten Hollywood with anything. They'll just find something else to use (trust me they can). A victory for Linux is a victory for Linux. Get them using the software and dependent on the software, then threaten. Negotiating from a position of power is much more effective.
sgi could care less as long as they are running linux on sgi workstations and servers what is the diference to them?
You see a problem, I see potential. - Vincent 'Vinnie' Antonelli
Hi,
:-(
the company I work for, bought a renderfarm (7 nodes) from SGI.
- their ACE thing was damn expensive
- maya render is linked to a bunch of useless libs (Mesa,X11)
- the renderer is said to be slower than's NT's
- maya 4 for linux wont be available before november
consequences:
- they want me to dump linux for w2k
prepare aspirin
Otherwise we would see APEX, a long time staunch opponent of the way DVDs are being handled, and others churning out DVD players based on the now publically available CSS specs.
All of this applies to US law of course, but as we've seen with Johanssen being extradited, and the arrest of Dimtry, jurisdiction of this law agreed to by the representatives of the American people and consented to by no others, seems to be global.
KMSMA (WWBD?)
Of course it's the same f---ing Hollywood! You're not the only person engaging in this sophestry but that doesn't make it any less bizarre.
Nobody's suggesting force and violence. That doesn't mean we should help them out. This is providing something for nothing in return - indeed, it's going to the very extreme, taking the schoolyard bully who's just given you a bloody nose and offering to clean his shoes for him. The MPAA is an organisation that represents movie publishers, which in turn represents the interests of producers and other people involved in the movie making chain. It is, like it or not, the legitimate voice of Hollywood. There are many individuals in Hollywood, some of whom may agree with us, some of whom wont, but as an entity, it's a slimy outfit that speaks with one voice: Let those who'd wish to do things other than the way we demand be subject to the most extreme abuses. Thanks to the laws the MPAA has been instrumental in proposing, we've seen people extradited, others imprisoned, others still pending imprisonment, and others silenced through threats of imprisonment. And for what purpose? To prevent someone from copying a movie, regardless of intent, whether it's to distribute across the world, or to copy from a DVD to a computer screen on an operating system nobody has a licence for.This is a pretty extremist and evil group. And you want us to go to bed with them. What a sick and twisted world.
KMSMA (WWBD?)
They Design on SGIs, then use the most cost effective solution on the backend for the rendering. (Of course most cost effective often means Sun saying, "Hey, will give you a ton of sun boxes to render on if you give us a big credit at the end.") Though these days more and more folks are using Linux for such things.
In any case, the OS is not a bottle neck, the hardware is.
Yep, that's why the move to Linux is smart for a lot of these companies. They can get a bunch of dirt cheap intel boxes and throw linux on them, instead of purchasing a less than cheap SGI box. True, the SGI box is real hardware and will perform better, but now that Intel boxes are so cheap and the performance difference isn't that great, Linux on cheap hardware makes sense.
Radiance comes immediately to mind for open source. Not-so-open source programs like Blender and BMRT are also good.
Here is another link http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/007 139.htm
--Reggie
BFD, Amazon.com has been running Linux for nearly a year.
Of course slashdot's "editors" have refused to run this story. It has been submitted serveral times.
Rendering farms doing Linux are a no-brainer compared to a large e-commerce site.
Because I *bought it*.
No, you *thought* you bought it. And that's only because you are stupid. If you read what was being sold, you'd realize that you *didn't* buy it. It wasn't on sale in the first place - only the license to view it in a restricted way was on sale.
Mmmm.. Donuts
IBM has found what will best counter their competitors, and they see big opportunity in Linux!
Bertoline!
Berto
"Wonder how SGI feels about that."
Checking Yahoo finance today, SGI's stock is at 60 cents today. In 12 to 18 months, IBM may own SGI. The best of both worlds maybe....
bbh
That's my point, which you are missing horribly. An effects company is not Hollywood. They are not the MPAA. They are not evil. Hell, they do effects for games, tv commercials, tv shows and yes, movies too.
It's called corporate deversity. Most companies that only make revenue from one single point don't really make it all that big. Just open your eyes and realize that not everybody who makes movies is evil.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Beautiful. You said it great. It's their product. I'm not sure why people think it is their God-given right to demand others to change or enhance their product for their needs.
Granted, it would be smart. Their tactics are at best wrong and unethical. But you don't have a right to watch your DVD under Linux. It's not in the constitution. It's not a felony in 49 states to not have Linux support for DVDs.
Do I want to watch DVDs under Linux? You betcha.
Do I support the lawsuits and the persecution of Dmitry? Hell no.
Do I think it's their right to license their software and enforce their trademarks/copyrights? Yep.
Do I think they are doing it right? Nope.
And, to finish this up, if you are working for the studios yes you are a part of the process. But that's like saying that the interior decorator contracted out to design a DeBeers is guilty of the murder of people in pursuit of diamonds. It's just absurd.... purely absurd.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Well if you read my response to the other response to my response :-) Really it is a joke, but so are software patents! It mightn't be a stupid idea to throw these stupid threats around a bit more though to show that we are NOT MAD ZEALOTS and to point out to some bean counters that we help them so why don't they stop hindering us!
I can't really see the whole of Debian moving to non-free no matter how insidious things become, but we gotta make sure they realise that this is not because we are in a position of weakness, it is because we are honorable. Let's make them admit their a pack of assh*les.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
What we can do is blackball those who'd work with Hollywood. This can be anything from removing them from mailing lists to ignoring or even hindering changes they'd want to make to applications and operating systems that are open source.
I don't want anything to do with the bastards. I would like to see others take a similar view. Let them live off the dregs of open source, not have the world of free software revolve around them.
KMSMA (WWBD?)
Yep. Linux Journal just did a cover story on the rendering for Shrek. Went into pretty good detail on the custom tools that Dreamworks is using.
Now, the entire reason why I'm responding is because I have friends who work for a effects company (They did stuff for AI, Shrek, Antz, etc). Now, they are a good company. Fun atmosphere, and guess what? A lot of the employees IRC on OpenProjects.Net. Now.. yes, they may get money from a source that is in opposition to the open source movement but guess what? If you work for a company so do you. If your company has one windows license, then you too are an evil entity in an evil empire trying to conquer the open source movement and spread ill-written consumer-attacking licenses throughout the world! Stop now before it's too late!
Oh wait, that's absurd. So is your argument. They aren't in an employer/employee relationship. They are in a contract. Worlds different. If a visual effect company wants to use Linux+SGI+IBM but their client goes "No, we want you to redo your setup in Windows" you think they'll do it? Hell no. It must be hard thinking everyone is against you, huh?
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Oh, you mean companies like this? I hate to tell you this, but that page has only had cosmetic changes since last October. I watched it religiously, holding off on getting a dvd drive for my computer until one came out.
After a several months, I got tired of waiting. I found a couple "unlicensed" players that worked good enough. Now there are almost a dozen that work just fine. The legal ones missed the boat, and now they'll have to compete with free ones.
I hate to tell you, but I don't think we'll see any legal ones coming out for a _long_ time.
Looking for a computer support specialist for your small business? Check out
SGI was the first major company to offer Linux with their systems. Also, I heard from a co-worker that SGI is working on an Itanium-based cluster (64x64)... probably for a redering farm. I don't have any URLs for this, however.
I think if IBM plans to "penetrate" the rendering market, they will have to compete with SGI still. Not because of the O/S (since they will both run Linux), but the fact that SGI has always had superior I/O and bus speeds compared to most other machines. The first x86-based SGI machines used Intel Xeon processors, but they redesigned the I/O. They were able to get a 50% performance increase from the system by tweaking the I/O.
Its good to see big business start to recognize the power of open source. No when will i get to see some big name open source 3d rendering apps?
Not any time soon, that's for sure. But you will see many commercial apps written using open source tools.
Check out some very early examples of what AC Charts-3D can do (hint: it's written in Python/Tkinter).
Thank you.
check out keeperoflists.org. Funny website. Like a top 10 list, where you can add your own items. Its better than waiting the hours you have for /. to update with a new post (and you know the new post will be something like YRO that no one cares about.
Michael is a hypocrit!
you're allowed to decrypt a DVD, as long as you do it by hand.
Precisely, therefore it's not illegal to make any attempt, just any practical attempt. Unfortunately, practicality is not addressed anywhere.
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
Already Alias|Wavefront has ported Maya (their flagship 3D software and the most commonly used package for movie animation) to Linux. The Pixar Renderman rendering engine is already ported to Linux. Basically, everything a studio would need is already ported to Linux. Softimage also has ported their software to Linux as well.
In other words, IBM is *way* behind the curve on this... Linux is already an integral part of 3D animation, and with the release of Maya 4 and it's Linux port, this trend is definately going to continue. Using off-the-shelf, inexpensive hardware for both workstations and render farms makes a lot of sense, and Linux is perfect as an extensible UNIX-based OS for animation purposes.
He's only 53 still.
What I'd like to see is the base 3d animation packages open sourced or under $500 and then you buy the fancy effect plug-ins or use open source ones. This would be like the IBM PC but for 3d. Hey that rymes. :)
It would allow a base package everyone can mess with and get going on but those special effects that are cutting edge can make the creators money until the freeware guys say, "hey that's cool, I'm going to do that". It would be time for new effects anyway so as the sales slow for plug-in 3dX, there would be new effect 3dY. Innovation, rewards, and growth....
As you can tell, I'm torn between everything being free and someone being paid for innovative work. Anyway, this is great news indeed.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Linux could even be replaced by commercial render-farm operations that run on purpose-built hardware.
Except that purpose built hardware is likely to turn out more expensive, using commodity hardware means you benefit from economys of scale in manufacturing. (As well as active competition with manufacturers.)
That is what Business Week proclaimed 4 years ago and it still hasn't happened. Why? Because PDI, Pixar, IML, DD, and the like have millions of lines of IRIX code and there are still (gasp) things that O2's and OCTANE's can do that IA-32 machines can't.
Hell, SGI couldn't kill their IRIX desktops even though they have tried twice now. They have even announced possible follow on machines to the OCTANE because of the demands from the DCC market.
That is not to say that it won't continue to change over time (and the poor SGI 320 was a great but ignored step in the right direction, btw it is scary how much NVIDIA's nFORCE is like the 320) but I am sure sick of everyone not involved in this industry proclaiming it is going to happen tomorrow.
Linux will get there and you can bet your butt that SGI will be a big reason for that (if they are still around or not). Instead of rejoicing in their potential death, Penguin followers ought to be thanking SGI for selling the idea of Linux to Hollywood. Almost single handedly!
IBM, Sun, Dell, HP, and Compaq making their yearly SIGGRAPH announcement and then throwing a URL out there where hollywood can order doesn't really do anything.
They will not buy IBMs. They will buy SGI's, Dell's, or generic.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84205
SGI doesn't make any 32 CPU systems with uniform memory access, which was my point. I know how well IRIX scales on ccNUMA systems (Origin2K, Origin3K). Speculating on how they scale on a 16 or 32 CPU "normal" shared memory computer can be nothing but speculation.
DreamWorks Features Linux and Animation /me wants one of those renderfarms (try and keep up with my seti packets :) )
There's a guy that goes to my LUG who works for SGI, some sort of promotional manager or something.
He told us SGI is very dedicated to Linux because it provides a standardized OS across platforms, which is what alot of their customers have wanted over the years.
Its also supposed to play into their Intel strategy, because as a customer grows, and moves up SGIs product line, they pretty much just need to recompile their apps to have them run on the faster hardware.
I suspect that Sgi will like having the rendering move onto Linux, although they may dislike having Sgi boxes replaced by IBM boxes.
Well, SGI IS moving towards Linux too, so I think they might be pleased! Now, their reacation to _IBM_ rendering farms is a bit different.
- No, I don't. My employer is neutral on open source. It doesn't condemn its use. It doesn't lie to judges and congressmen about the subject. It doesn't lobby for draconian laws to be passed against it. Simply using non-open source software does not constitute opposition to the open source movement: making use of the law to suppress open source projects that are no threat to your business certainly does.
If your company has one license of windows, they gave money to Microsoft. Microsoft lies, cheats, etc and guess what? You work for a company that works for microsoft (based off your original logic). Oops, you are evil.If your company has one license of Adobe's products, then you have helped Adobe in it's little fiasco with Dmitry and you should be ashamed of yourself for working for a company that would help prosecute an innocent man.
This is information, technology, it's all connected. Grouping one piece that does a dozen and a half things into the "Evil Corporate Bin" because they happen to like doing special effects and companies pay them to do it is just stupid.
And since your company makes automotive parts, shall I blame you for the Firestone/Explorer incident? Even though you (and chances are your company, although I dont know) had nothing to do with it?
Gimme a break..
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
You will never see powerful 3D apps that are open source. There is too much money in the development, plus the licensing of codecs would make the most useful parts inaccessible.
Exactly what "codec" does film need also any patents on the processing of film have long since expired.
Question! Are Pixar, PDI, and ILM using Linux now? Or are they switching?
Email me by changing all 0s to Os.
http://movieweb.com/movie/toystory2/co9.jpg
Krispy Cream is people
Laughing my ass off
They aren't acting like it is new. In fact the article mentions Linux being used on Titanic and Shrek. The article is announcing IBM's Linux Digital Studio package. Sometimes it helps to read the article before responding to it. :)
'Same speed C but faster'
well, if you don't know how well IRIX scales, why not check out sgi's SPEC submissions and find the fuck out? almost straight line proportionality, if you can't find the site. Anyway, sgi have been pushing Linux for a couple of years now on their x86 'stations.
This is clearly IBMs strategy. They will make a lot of money from it. Such installations are very good for customers too: customers save energy, floor space, and staff--and, best of all, get mainframe-level reliability.
If the hollywood studios use the dvd's in their linux rendering boxes to view their latest CG work, will they have start writing themselves threatening e-mails?
And his point was, correctly, that for this applictaion, that doesn't make much difference.
As long as your time to render one frame is 2. More memory bandwidth would be nice, but that is a function of SGI hardware, not their OS, and x86 is catching up to many of the low to midrange machines from the likes of SGI.
What it needs is a low overhead OS that can support lots of memory, and runs on hardware that when something goes wrong, they can swap out the machine and worry about fixing it later.
The fact is, for a fixed investment, Linux on x86 will render more frames faster than any other platform out there. It is easier to find admins, and easier to customize for your needs. The node cost is cheap enough that you can just swap them out if something breaks, and in my experience SGIs hardware is unreliable crap compared to other UNIX vendors, and about on par with high quality x86 servers.
Also, I think the claim that IRIX is the best OS for ncpus >> 2 is a bit misleading. The ccNUMA archetecture scales much better than shared memory multi-processing. I don't know how well IRIX would run on a 32 CPU shared memory computer with uniform memory access. I suspect well, but not as well as you might imagine. There are other OSes that do this well (Linux doesn't yet, though it is getting there)
I will worry about Linux having IO bottlenecks at 2 GB/s when there exists x86 hardware with half that bandwidth available.
As the article says, and we should all remember, SGI's also selling Linux boxes now.
It's easier to go with something that's being worked on by the Open Source community, since you can be pretty sure that any Open project with sufficient momentum will get the major kinks out over time. Besides, it's easier for SGI than to keep on supporting IRIX, which has had its own fair share of disaster stories.
It's going to go back to a hardware battle, and this is where IBM may not be ready to compete. Using Linux is nice, but what about render times? What about the overall architecture? Are these IBM boxes going to beat out SGI in price and performance?
If so, then SGI should worry. Linux has nothing to do with it.
Raptor
"Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
Well, according to this news site, 1100 of them probably don't really like it...
actually, now that I think of it, I never could make out the words but now I realize he sings "when you wanna fsck to it"
"Of course you probably can't conceive of the fact that when you want to push a continuous 2 GB/s from a disk array you are going to run into more than just hardware bottlenecks. Weenie."
Most likely not for the application that's the topic of this discussion. You probably can't conceive better performance/dollar ratios with free software and x86 hardware.
The poster did not state that IRIX sucks. Neither did mention applicability of Linux or other non-commercial OS for high I/O, low RT latency e.t.c. The point was, you don't need IRIX for an application that spends most of the time on CPU and does very little I/O. Linux or BSD clusters are cheaper, and quite likely faster for this kind of software per dollar. Just take a look at the recent Linux Journal. SGI machines were supplemented with a Linux cluster for the Shrek movie saving on money and time, zealot.
legal ones
Licensed ones, you mean. Unlicensed players that were written for the purpose of interoperability with the format and by way of reverse engineering are just as legal as the licensed players. Calling the licensed players "legal players" implies otherwise.
Other than that one nit, I agree completely, the market for licensed players on Linux no longer exists.
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
Loki, a company devoted to porting popular Windows games to the Linux platform, filed for bankruptcy protection early this week. Although this may look like the official death of Linux as desktop alternative, posters on Slashdot insist that this is all "good news" for Linux enthusiasts. ... by Linux ... dammit.
/. or at least modded down. All of your negativity is getting in the way of our free and open forum."
/. Logins to flame you into oblivion!"
Owing millions of dollars in licensing fees to various game developers, Loki failed to find a market selling games to people who are not used to paying for software. It seems the company could not convince enough game enthusiasts to shell out another fifty bucks for a Linux version of a game they already own for Windows.
Most of the posts on Slashdot mourned the loss of a another Linux-friendly company. Although this was one of many Linux bankruptcies in the past few months, users of the operating system maintain that the desktop OS war has already been fought and won
Slashdot prides itself on the open-mindedness of its readership and the lively egalitarian debates held on its pages. For example, in response to one post questioning the need for Linux as a mainstream desktop operating system, a user responded with a mature and reasoned post:
"Fuck the shut up, all of you! I'm writing a bot to make sure that any anti-Linux poster gets banned from
It is fortunate that the Linux community has such an open and democratic forum to vent their frustrations [if they were frustrations, which they certainly aren't]. Just as Henry Ford offered the public a panoply of colors for his early automobiles as long as they were black, Slashdot accepts the entire spectrum of opinion on issues of open source and the free software movement.
"You are all a bunch of ridiculous fucktards," wrote a user named Anonymous Coward. "To all of you FUD-mongers who see Linux only as a server OS only, you should troll someplace else. You are not wanted here in our welcoming community. Slashdot is all about freedom of speech. So, shut the hell up before I use my various
The quality of opinions expressed on Slashdot have remained high even as the quantity of posts grows exponentially. The reason for the sudden rise in traffic may have something to do with the increase in the amount of free time the average dot-com worker has these days.
Since Slashdot as much a game as message board [users are objectively "scored" on every post], some have devised tricks to get their comments moderated up. One of the easiest ways to accomplish this is to pick a random quotation and plug in the appropriate proper nouns for instant wisdom.
"Loki is dead." wrote one poster. "Long live Loki."
"I come here to bury Loki, not to praise them."
"Forst Pist," added another. "All your base are belong to us!"
All told, the Linux community is upbeat [and not at all defensive] about the recent round of set-backs [if you want to call them that, because they're not "set-backs" at all].
In the aftermath of Loki's demise, however, Linux users will always have their old stand-by to fall back on: playing stolen Windows games.
On the main part of the performance/$$ curve, sure commodity hardware rules, but at the extreme high end of performance, the place where you have specific tasks and require specific features and functionality it's not just a matter of balancing money, time and CPU power. Sometimes you have to have a ferrari. So there.
AFAIK, both Titanic and Shrek were rendered on Linux. (They were using Alphas in Digital Domain and Intels at PDI to do it.)
Furthermore, PDI is using Linux *on the desktop* since early 2001.
-jfedor
Take a look at Blender.
Of course SGI would've liked everyone to use their machine and OS. They would get better profits that way (in a way it's a bit comparable to what Apple is doing, closed platform better revenues). But they saw this decline years ago and knew they gotta change. Probably everyone remembers they were supposed to build their own NT boxes. Good thing they got into their senses and got into Linux. I think this will make everyone happy. Linux will benefit from the push, and SGI has a good platform that's widely available on different architectures.
I thought it was a shame when SGI started to move to other OSs as I like IRIX and their machines had that geeky factor. But in retrospect, they did a very smart move.
The World's Best Music!
You are so full of shit.
IRIX has _never_ been typical. IRIX is probably the most advanced unix flavour out there.
So tell me which other unixes support this, out of the box:
1) graphics context management
2) grio
3) DSM
4) 512+ cpu single image
Do I need to go on ?
IRIX doesn't have the installed base of more popular oses for many reasons... however, none of those reasons are due to IRIX being old fashioned and technology-poor.
I'm betting you're still dreaming about owning an SGI, because your post indicates you've never spent much time with one.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
No, it's not the same Hollywood. The one's against DVDs under linux are the MPAA. The one's who are going to/might use linux are the backend movie production people, or whatever. IBM are the people who are making it possible by releasing cool software.
I don't want to see Linux helping an industry that is so negative about open source and ideologically committed to its destruction.
On the contrary, I'd love to see Linux help the movie industry out. Because if they do, then the movie industry might actually see how great linux is and be much more kind to us (the linux community) in general. The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make friends with him, not through force and violence.
I can't prevent it from happening, that's what a free operating system is all about after all,
No you can't, thank god.
Also please try to keep in mind that Hollywood and the movie industry contains two types of people, lawyers, and not lawyers. So please just be mad at the MPAA, not whole damn industry.
In an article ZDNet entitled Linux takes Hollywood by storm, it is reported this past May 17, that credit for the success of the summer box-office hit Shrek, was in a large part to the animators' use of the free Linux operating system instead of software from the likes of Microsoft Corp. and Silicon Graphics Inc.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
and this silly "guess how to get a post through the lameness filter" game sucks.
Replace DVD with Linux.
Many of the earlier graphics houses made a huge mistake: they bought whole render farms of SGI equipment, figuring, that's the best at graphics, so it's okay to pay double or triple for each box.
The distinction is, there's rendering, and then there's modeling. SGIs are (were) a great value for modeling, but a lousy value for the actual brute-force rendering work.
Yes, an SGI had a large advantage in the modeling department, because it could let an artist manipulate fairly complex meshes in real-time and get fast proof shots.
But SGI had *no* advantage, and sometimes a disadvantage, at the actual renderfarm work. The machines that did Jurassic Park I were just single-processor 150MHz MIPS R4400 boxes with a nice data bus. The software that did Jurassic Park were not taking *any* advantage of the 24 pipelined matrix multipliers, clippers, texturing rasterizers or other custom hardware. They were using the vanilla Unix works, just like any raytracer or renderman app. A few well-tuned Sparcs or an AS/400 could have done the same work.
SGI changed their logo and ther company name. It's no longer "Silicon Graphics, Inc.", it's just SGI. The logo isn't Scott Kim's famous paperclip cube anymore. Graphics isn't their prime corporate mission anymore. As others have pointed out, they now offer Linux-based machines, and they're still valuable to the artists.
[
Um the point SGI is making is that their software (ie. OS) doesn't suck. You can blather all you want about "CPU bound", "parallelization", "distribution", etc. but the fact is that IRIX is better than any OS OS where ncpus > 1 and much better where ncpus >> 2. They have lower latencies for many critical operations when dealing with RT tasks. They have larger I/O throughput.
Of course you probably can't conceive of the fact that when you want to push a continuous 2 GB/s from a disk array you are going to run into more than just hardware bottlenecks. Weenie.
Just check this link.
-><- no
Hey, the more popularity Linux gains, the less we have to worry about Windows maintaining a stranglehold on the market. Go Hollywood!
Reality... caught within the depths of night... has no more substance than the lucent dream. -Tales of Genji.
This picture pretty much sums it up.
Krispy Cream is people
As far as SGI, I don't think any in the big FX houses will ever take them seriously again after the 320/540 Visual Workstation debacle. It is hard to say if they will be supporting the product you just bought in six months because they change their business model so often.
Entropy Rules
(from http://www.sgi.com/developers/feature/2001/roadmap .html)
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
OK, so Linux is replacing some Unix boxes. That's a no brainer. I want to hear about it replacing NT boxes - now that would be exciting.
but at least your Karma gets a small boost.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
If you want one, write it yourself. Oh you can't?
Well theres your answer.
Need to get away?
Adirondack Vacations
"X" Goes to Hollywood makes for a great name for a band.
Best Slashdot Co
You have an interesting point, but you know, I think Theo De Raadt said it best regarding the licensing of OpenBSD: if you want to use it in a baby mulcher, we can't stop you anyway. Linux is not an organization; it's an operating system. The organizations involved with it are entitled to make money (if they can; they shouldn't be running to the government for help), and they're as free to do with it as they please as we are.
The fact is that you can't say, "No, you can't use it for that" when you're dealing with a GPL product. Moreover, Linux is being used in the industry by techies, many of whom probably roughly the same attitude we do towards industry lawyers. We (who is this we, kemo sabe?) can object all we want, but the truth is that there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it, and, like it or not, that's probably the way it should be.
And all the handwringing in the world won't change that.
/Brian
http://forum.fuckedcompany.com/phpcomments/index.p hp?newsid=14647946313&page=1&parentid=0&crapfilter =1
Blue Mountain Rendering Tools (BMRT) is a Renderman compliant rendering solution.
SGI is totally commited to the Linux option for all of their vertical markets-----
What you probably mean is "free software 3D rendering apps". Simply "open-sourceness" wouldn't made an app any more available for you. You could buy a commercial package right now.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favour of copyright infringement, but the notion that it should be illegal to watch Dr Strangelove on a Linux box because movie makers are obsessed that someone might use knowledge gained from the movie playing software to make a copy of the film, is absurd in the extreme.
I don't want to see Linux helping an industry that is so negative about open source and ideologically committed to its destruction. I don't want to see Linux helping an industry that lobbied for laws that effectively put the major art form of the 20th Century behind an electronic curtain leading to a situation where we may even lose much of what's important by the end of the 21st. An industry that has consistantly lied, even in court, about the motives of those wanting to break the encryption, and whose products appear to be increasingly designed to prevent consumers having any control or rights whatsoever of things they've paid money for.
I can't prevent it from happening, that's what a free operating system is all about after all, but I can say that those who help Hollywood in this fight and provide open source solutions to them, are a bunch of slimeballs, and insofar as we have a community, they should be blackballed from it.
Sorry, strongly expressed I know, but it's something I feel particularly angry about.
KMSMA (WWBD?)
Will the ticket prices go down too?
I guess not...
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
2 OS' enter, 1 OS leaves...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
DreamWorks Features Linux and Animation
The funny thing about that is that renderfarms have ALREADY been running Linux for a while now. At least for THREE years. And they were smart not using IBM hardware, because it SUCKS.
Its good to see big business start to recognize the power of open source. No when will i get to see some big name open source 3d rendering apps?
Huzzah!
Well, I doubt you'll see much from Alias/Wavefront as open source anytime soon :-)
Still, it'll be nice to see some good modelling packages (other than Blender) on Linux.
But we might see some of the other software, developed by the studios/FX shops, used for modelling and rendering, released as open source.
That would be nice.
/Styx
Well, this brings to mind the fact that Amigas and the NewTek Toaster/Lightwave 3D were used to render Babylon 5 when it first appeared on the scene. Now they use Macs, DEC Alphas, and 12 Pentiums to do the job. Ahhh, the good old days ;-)
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
...comes from buying a whole slew of cheap machines, throwing Linux on them and BMRT, then using them as the render farm.
But what's most of the modeling being done on? That's what I want to know. Probably either SGI workstations or NT/2K...
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
Firstly, "Hollywood", or rather the movie copyright holders are not against allowing users to watch DVDs on Linux. They are against the DVD protection being cracked. They are also against free players where they don't make any money out of the deal. They have created the format and expect to make money off any players. There are mainstream efforts to create Linux DVD players by companies who have licensed the format. Secondly, the people who hold the copyrights to those movies are NOT the same people that create the special effects. People get hired to do the special effects for films, which they do either for a flat fee or a cut of the profits or some combination thereof. They don't make any decisions about distributing the movie and leave that up to the distributors. Of course you could have learned all this if you had simply taking Thinking 101.
Mmmm.. Donuts
Their tactics are at best wrong and unethical.
Now, your prior point was that the people being discussed weren't the people doing the bad things.
Now you've lumped them back in together.
It's just absurd.... purely absurd.
No. Hypocritical when the studios use Linux for all the same reasons we do, and refuse to support it because it doesn't assist in their land grab of "fair use" rights.
It's their product. I'm not sure why people think it is their God-given right to demand others to change or enhance their product for their needs.
Because I *bought it*.
And the concept that I can't then use *my* property as *I* see fit (assuming, of course, that its not in ways that would impair the studio, such as making copies) is absurd, purely absurd.
Addison
I like Linux.
Now, the entire reason why I'm responding is because I have friends who work for a effects company (They did stuff for AI, Shrek, Antz, etc). Now, they are a good company. Fun atmosphere, and guess what? A lot of the employees IRC on OpenProjects.Net.
Now.. yes, they may get money from a source that is in opposition to the open source movement but guess what? If you work for a company so do you.
I don't.
But that's another issue.
They aren't in an employer/employee relationship. They are in a contract. Worlds different.
No. They are producing work for us to buy, but we're not allowed to view it when and where and on what we want.
That was his main point, you completely missed it.
When they are using Linux for the same reason that we are on our desktop(s) - [insert list of reasons here], but then denying us the ability to view our purchased product on said desktop........
And yes, if they're working for those studios, they are part of that process.
That's at best hypocritical.
Addison
Why do articles like these still label Linux as an "upstart"? The Linux kernel just turned 10 for God's sake!
IRIXis a typical old fashioned unix.Itdoes not evolve at a fast enough rate to keep up with advances in software or the needs of its users. granted it may be extremly scalable but as third party companys scoff at developing software for an OS with a user-base as small as IRIXs the OS does not show its full potential. SGI has moved to wider user base by starting to use Intel IA-32 CPUs(soon IA-64s as well). They should it expand even more by using a mainstream OS. SGIs are incredibly desirable pieces of kit(i saw one when i was 5.dreamed about owning one since). Shame about the OS.
--cros13
wonder how sgi feels.... well my bet is that they just dont care... they will go with IBM and sell linux if thats what is selling...
When you post material verbatim from Ridiculopathy.com, you should at least say "thank you" and include the paragraph tags to make it easier to read.
Come on, you're waffling sophestry again. You know that someone that produces computer graphics systems for Hollywood movie makers is a part of that industry. I know it. Your good friends who worked on Antz knows it. They're working at the behest of Hollywood, to produce goods of Hollywood's own design, to be owned by Hollywood and eventually to profit Hollywood. What are you going to argue next, that George Lucas isn't part of Hollywood? Harrison Ford isn't part of it? "Hey, they're only actors, they're working from a contract!"
KMSMA (WWBD?)
http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
* No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups
The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons.
* No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor
The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.
Just an FYI, but it would just get really nasty if a lot of people started putting exclusion clauses, etc. in their licenses.
--Robert
I noticed the mistake the second time I read it. Even at my university right now, many SGI machines are running gcc because the SGI C++ compiler is too expensive.
this was very much expected. considering that the majority of the CG portions of the entertainment industry write a good half (if not more) of the software they use, what else would be a better OS?
i cant seem to come up with a sig.
SGI hasn't been able to give a clear picture to its customers. Before, customers KNOW that SGI and "Graphics" go together. Now, SGI is having MIPS, x86, and Itanic together with Irix, Linux, and WinNT. Besides, rendering is only a matter of CPU crunching, so of course render farms would prefer cheap hardware and no-cost OS. For authoring, the tools on Irix are still superior. For rendering, any multi-processor-enabled would do the job. SGI really need to get their acts together and reposition themselves. "Claiming" to support Linux on expensive IndyBoxen doesn't help, and coming up with YET another x86-Linux system isn't gonna help product differentitation.
I think there is a seriou sproblem with the music industry...
I am most unhappy withg the movies comming out these days... (I haven't seen planet of the apes yet tough)
I wish they'd spend more time on storymaking than rendering technology. Rant all you want, all the most beautiful effect eventually become ordinary... but stories go on for centuries.
Let's hope the money they save on licenses will be spent on better movies!
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
They've already proven that their hardware can generate some pretty snazzy special effects. There will probably be a large contingent of studios that don't want to take the risk of getting the hardware from an unproven outfit, so they'll go with SGI.
Makes me wonder, though, if we'll start seeing more and more "Effects Experts" and companies like IBM sending teams of them to help studios out with getting the hardware going and adding in effects.
My sigs always suck.
There isn't just one Hollywood when making movies, its a beast with many heads. Legal is doing its best to protect the nice DVD niche they've created and the filmmakers themselves will get away with whatever they want be it IRIX, Linux, hand-drawn, etc.
I'd rather see a hypocritical industry without an anti-linux (or anti-anything for that matter) party-line to follow. These are two completely seperate issues, if you don't want to support MPAA then don't spend cash on their movies, what tools they end up using is really of no consequence if you're already boycotting them.
...if I remember from the credits, Toy Story 2 was rendered on Sun boxen...(I'm lame, aren't I? I read that stuff... ;-) )
Seriously, though, it's nice to see OSS out in the specialist fields too...
It's time for 'Return of the penguin'
Yes, just like the last six times he died. Tsk.
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
Sometimes it seems Open Source is competing with every software company on earth except Microsoft. IT is tearing away the foothold of the competition, thus making MS even stronger.
Yesterday there was a talk about making an open source platform based on j2ee, turning j2ee into open source land and in the process making life even more difficult for MS alternatives such as BEA and IBM.
Yesterday Sun and now SGI. Is open Source stupid?
Will code a sig generator for food
Didn't I just hear that Intel was taking their Xeon to Hollywood? What happened to Wintel (Microsoft windows and Intel) ? This is great news. GO Linux!
No wonder that movie sucked.
Or maybe it was the bad acting and pathetic plot.
Thank you.
SGI: "hey, use this system!" .. we'll use it a little bit, i guess." .. see what ELSE we can do fFor you!" .. that's cool .. i think i'll use that at home, too!"
Hollywood: "hmm, i dunno
IBM: "hey, use this system!"
Hollywood: "well, i guess if big blue says it's good..."
Open/fFree movements: "and if you like those products
Hollywood employees: "hmm
Hey, I thought it was amusing
Welcome to the Linux dome
I am not aware of anyone producing a licenced DVD player for Linux that is open source, that is free, or for general PCs. All the efforts to produce open source DVD players for Linux are unlicenced, and it's been made pretty clear (such as by actually having Johanssen extradited to the USA, and by Valenti lying in a submission to Kaplan's already biased court, about the nature of the open source movement) that Hollywood is 100% opposed to such developments.
Of course they're the same entity! Arguing that one group is nothing to do with the other because the only relationship they have is that one pays the other, tells the other what to do, and owns the results, is an absurd argument. This is a straight employer/employee relationship, and the people who own the copyrights and fund open source bashing lawyering are the people benefiting from open source, just as my employer benefits from web technology even though he never touches the stuff and it is merely me, a humble employee, who puts his web applications together that he can sell to other people.KMSMA (WWBD?)
You also post anonymously which makes you look like a mod or at least a defensive little fucktard who doesn't know the difference.
[flashback to 20 years ago - or this morning]
"Mommy, they keep making fun of me."
"Honey, just say 'that is not funny' and they will go away."
"'That is not funny.' Like that?"
"Yes, that's fine. Now we'll change your underwear and send you back to school."
``The idea that Linux is open source is very attractive to people in Hollywood, because they're so technically astute,'' said SGI's Greg Estes.
Is this guy sucking up or what? Astute? HTF can they be *so technically astute* when they can't grasp the simple concept that Linux users just want to be able to access their own PAID FOR media??
But wait - it gets even better..
``I've been told by senior executives at virtually every one of the major studios that this transformation will happen,'' IBM's Canepa said. ``They will retool their content creation onto an open platform, and they will adopt Linux.''
Retool onto an open platform? Hmm, sounds like just a lot of BS to me. On the other hand, maybe this is the turning point where those sob's at the RIAA/MPAA/whatever come to realize that Linux is no different from Windows in that it's a tool for an end. And in the case of Linux, the tool belongs to EVERYONE not just those willing to bend over for MS.. Maybe there is some promise here after all...Once Linux is in use by techs AND the content people, how much longer could it be before it's the corporate platform waving Windows out the door? At that point it's doubtfull that any Exec could deny the need for fully supporting Linux users.
Erm...
...please?
Please tell me that you're kidding...
FireGLs barely work with the official drivers under windoze, let alone under Linux.
SGI effectively gives away their OS and you have to pay incredible prices for their hardware.
Aieeee! Don't I wish. Irix 6.5.11 = $600. Full MIPSpro compiler set = >$1000. (Support contract = firstborn child, but that's pretty standard)
I bought an Indigo2 online for $200. Fantastic machine- a supercomputer when it came out 8 years ago. Technology still superior to that in some modern PCs. Decent machine even today for my basic uses. But if I want to buy an OS so I can write papers and code and check email and NYTimes.com, I pay out the ass to SGI. Solution: borrow Irix from friendly sysadmins, or buy machine with "testing copy" preloaded.
*Sun* gives away the OS. SGI sadly has not seen any wisdom in this business model, making it difficult for hobbyists to enjoy these machines. They really are some of the best computers ever made, but there's just so much you can do with gcc and an outdated version of the OS. Which is really a shame, because most people who use Irix feel it is far superior to Linux as either a desktop or server platform, even aside from the limitations of PC hardware.