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HP+Compaq Deal Could be Great for Linux
elliotj writes "This Business Week editorial is arguing that the HP purchase of Compaq could mean big things for Linux as the resulting monolith is forced to rationalize their multitude of operating systems. The most sensible solution may well be for them to abandon HPUX, Tru64 et al and embrace Linux as the one-and-only *nix OS. Interesting thing about the article is that it comes from Business Week...not exactly a traditional penguin cheerleader." Ah, but soon, thanks to Yet Another Corporate Merger, we'll have another defunt company icon in the topics field.
What's a life?
woot!
I think most of you agree that if HPaq did decide to embrace Linux it would be pretty cool. But there are quite a few potential drawbacks of this. First of all it would mean the loss of quite a few jobs in Compaq and HP. Both companies have a pretty large developement staff which would not be entirely needed. Some would need to remain behind in order to produce a flavor of linux tailored to their systems. Imagine that if all of a sudden a wave of 60 year old Unix guru's were put out onto the street...
A rabbit in the hand is worth 4 in the cage
A lot of it depends on how well the deal is received by stockholders. The overall impetus for the deal was to cut costs by eliminating overlapping divisions (not just Linux-related stuff), but so far HP's stock is down- there's a front page story on this in the Financial Times today (www.ft.com). This could indicate that stockholders and investors are scared that the consolidation plans are too aggressive, and it might scare HP away from eliminating support for older *nix systems in the near future. Still, we can hope....
And Linux...well this is probably the least of their concerns
Linux is no longer the underdog. It is clear that Linux has a firm grip on the imagination of such battle-worn industrial giants as HP and IBM, that the battle is no longer in the hands of the geeks. The product has left our hands, and I for one, am delighted to see the Minuet link from earlier in the day. At least half the posts on that topic were mean-spirited, a stiff hill that Linus didn't have to climb in 1991.
The great work of Open Source is finished. Now the true geeks, return to working on obscure things that don't hit the news every six hours.
-Water Paradox
information is immaterial
total *whacka whacka* linux masturbation story. please don't joke that they will dump tru64 for linux.
I know all the *nix have a lot of similarities, but HP has kind of been with HPUX for awhile now. Could they be able to support linux within a year? That could require a lot of training. And any transition requires even more spending money (something I'm guessing they have less to throw around after buying Compaq).
Honestly I think they're going to be more conservative and go for printers and other accessories, not necessarially linux anytime soon.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Now we have IBM, number one computer company, and HP/Compaq, soon to be number two, both strongly in the Linux corner. Plus, the dozens of other powerful companies that are fighting against Microsoft. It won't be long before the concentration of power will lie with Linux, rather than Microsoft. What then? Will we demand that the Justice Department break up the Linux Mailing list? I'd really hate to see it go that far (though, given the anti-corporate, pro-hippie bias in government, it strikes me as quite unlikely to happen anyway).
I do have a serious concern. What happens when Microsoft ceases to be a contender in the computer world? Once the Open Source community has lost it's scapegoat, will it be able to hold together? Is Microsoft the James Earl Jones to Linux's Conan the Barbarian (or, Luke Skywalker, if you prefer)? We know Microsoft is evil, but would Linux even exist in anything approaching it's present magnificent state without the antagonism of Microsoft? Something to think about.
If you have a problem with my views, REPLY, don't moderate!
Well they both had a pretty big presence at the linux expo. And i saw plenty of ipaqs running linux of sorts. I sure hope they both under one umbrella will continue to support linux but in an even stronger manner.
Just an everyday guy....nothing special
Thank you.
Hewlett Packard bought Compaq. Hewlett Packard owns Compaq. I have a Hewlett Packard. My cousins have a Compaq. That means that I own them. I already did, but this is more of a buffer zone.
Click here, it's great.http://www.invalidchars.com
The problem is that HP will have to lay off about 16,000 more people. I wonder how many of these will be part of the Linux project.
What are the odds that HP will do something idiotic and get rid of Linux instead of pulling it into its heart and soul?
- - -
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an alternate news site using Slash Code
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And IBM is already committed to Linux. So HP either chooses Linux to gain an equal footing or foolishly pursues it's own massive matrix of proprietary hardware/os offerings. Like the article says: "If HP continues to place equal emphasis on the various operating systems, it will likely survive. But HP could have difficulty growing in the high-end server market and in services. Fiorina's job could become one of managing decline rather than leading growth."
Services will not pull them out of this one and training a new/larger field service group in a plethora of new technologies will not be cheap. My money says they will not succeed. Only a simplification and rationalization of offerings will. Linux looks like an excellent choice as it is beginning to make a buzz in boardrooms.
If that happens you can be sure that Microsoft is going to try and sweep in to pick through the carnage...
------
www.moneybythenumbers.com
I think that this merger will obviously cause some downsizing of OSes but this will have bad side effects. One, it could hurt corperate culture and cause alot of internal stability problems. No good programmer is going to want to give up his or her job and baby (their flavor of UNIX). It will cause them to leave or cause competing UNIXes within HP (everyone remember at Apple - Mac people had buttons "we are the future" and the Apple people had "we are the cash"). This is obviously a great risk that came with aquiring Compaq.
:-)
Second, the decentralized nature of Linux posses a problem for big wigs in the mega companies today. Beside HP, who just made their "distro," who is behind Linux besides all of the individuals? Where is their ticker symbol? I do realize that HP made HPUX, but was its success really that great? I'm all for Linux, but are most people on the board of directors going to prefer an OS which they can fallback on (like Microsoft), or one which has a rebellious "nature" and following.
Granted, Linux is nice and all, and it will get a boost from this merger, but I'm not sure that it will quite get the boost that this article is talking about. I just can't think of any more points right now.
The Linux afficianados are so desperate to justify their meager operating system they clutch at any straw they can to fool themselves into thinking that Linux has worth.
They joke's on you, lusers!
Judging from the "overwhelming" support both companys have from their shareholders regarding the deal, I doubt it will even occur. c'mon, how many companys REALLY go through with a merger after it drops over 5 billion in value? Not even micro$oft would touch that one...
actually, adam had the first cock.
And you STILL don't have an HP icon. Actually, the official strategy from HP, at least before all of this merger business, is the "Three OS Strategy" Windows, HP-UX, Linux. HP-UX at some point is going to be binary compatible with Linux and be the HP Big Iron version of "Linux"
You Like Science?
You Like bottomquark.
"Yet another corporate merger." I'm not insuating that remark was made in this way -- but so many people say that phrase with a sense of bitterness, and I just don't get it. It's the nature of the markets. Companies merge, so what?
:-)
Often people get layed off -- but if the companies don't merge, trust me, MORE people could get layed off (clearly in this case.. Compaq's been in BIG trouble for some time)
Call me a Capitalist Pig, but this is the way it goes, and it's not so horrible. I don't like Compaq, I don't like HP much... but I'm not cursing them because they're merging -- it's best for the market, and could turn out pretty good.
It's funny that (especially those from the 60's) despise corporations, and somehow fail to realize corporations provide us with jobs, health coverage, a place in which to feel pride, et cetera. Companies aren't evil.
If you want something to bitch about, bitch about the 50% divorce rates. Now THERE are some "comporate mergers / layoffs" in itself.
My ranting is done.
The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
What about the military computers that use HP-UX...make them switch? I believe the navy uses HPUX for some things, like in some of their planes.
Ah, but soon, thanks to Yet Another Corporate Merger, we'll have another defunt company icon in the topics field.
Defunct. Like Compaq desktop systems.
Good riddance.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Dont get me wrong I have been using Linux for about 8 Years now and I like working with. But I also like working with Unix systems (Solaris, *BSD, etc). And I found that every OS has its atvantages and Disatvantages. And I dont think Hpaq will do a big switch to all Linux any time soon. Although it would be great if they use Linux for the systems that Linux is good, for Low-Mid size servers (1-2 Processors) where the server is set up and let it do its job. But I found the Triditional Unixes and even the old VMS has its place as well in today market and I dont see them dieing out anytime soon (Mabey VMS). Those Evil Closed sourse Unix Systems (Some with over 20 years of development on them) are better tuned to do their jobs on their own systems. Linux by contrasted is developed to work more like a leathermen tool of the OS. (Windows is like a cheap pockit knife). Although they are greate for most taskes there are time that you need to get a real screwdriver or pliers to get the job done. I found the Unix systems Open or Closed source work very well. And True64 and HPUX still have their place. They do the serving on the higher scailable systems that Linux dosent handle as well plus I found that the latest versions of the UNIX's are more stable then Linux is. Mostly because they are designed around a fixed archecture, While linux and windows tries to run on it all.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
And supposedly IBM will do this as well, along with making AIX "100% Linux compatible". Trouble is, I've been hearing this for years - and AIX still ships without a C compiler and behaves erratically when you try to install GCC, Perl, etc from anything other than pre-compiled binaries. And where is SMIT for Linux? I'm having a hard time finding evidence of IBM's billion dollar commitment.
It would be a great move for all these companies to get behind Linux - maybe Sun will go the same way if it finally happens. It would be awfully nice to use the same tools to admin RS/6000s as you do to HP or Sun servers, not to mention your Intel boxes at home. Trouble is, all we've seen yet is lip service paid to Linux.
So HP, if you're listening, hopefully you won't drag your feet like IBM has. You're not that far behind, because so far IBM has done very little.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
of defeat for these two large proprietary-Unix vendors. Not that I think they'll ever do this, but it sounds like a good idea to me. A very good idea.
For decades, proprietary-Unix vendors sold awkward, mutually incompatible versions of the OS on the premise that this somehow "differentiated" their products and "locked-in" their customers. All this really accomplished was waste lots of money on software development and maintenance - money that could have been better spent on basic hardware R&D and product development. Maybe they'll learn and embrace the commodity open-source OS concept, but I'm not holding my breath.
HP and Compaq are in for a rough ride (and the stock market has figured this out - HP's down about 20%). Since they've given up designing their own processor architectures, they're destined to become garden variety Intel box-makers. And Dell's got them beat at this. Moving to Linux might help.
Hahahaha. Why would HP abandon HP/UX?
Certainly I can understand why Compaq's Unix (aka Tru64, Ultrix, OSF1, DigitalUnix) would be KILLED. After all, Digital never let it grow to be a competitor with VMS. The market was never really developed.
HP/UX isn't the most popular Unix, but it is popular and mature and has it's following.
So there is no need to "rectify" HP/UX with Compaq's UNIX, other than to kill Compaq's efforts.
Killing HP/UX would just help Linux succeed, and HP has no financial reason to be interested in that.
After all, HP doesn't want to get out of the lucrative HP/UX hardware business, and supporting Linux will just convince people to go with lower-cost hardware.
Business Week should only publish stuff written by people with a clue.
HP/C can't, even if they wanted to. Period. VMS and others (think tru64, and maybe hpux) have a government contract which requires them to support the systems for something like 10 years or more. Plus, many banks use VMS, and rely on Alphas. (No, geeks aren't the only ones who like them.) The problem hp-compaq-dec is going to have is that they are by contract forced to support these operating systems, whether they want to or not.
With paying customers for tru64 and HPUX, why should Hewlet ComPaqard drop those OSes for Linux?
I predict both propietary unices will continue to be maintained. But eventually they'll start to look more like each other and Linux.
HP and Compaq have something to do with Linux? Well then, here's HP/Compaq's projected stock price in a year.
If this were true why would Compaq hava abandoned the Alpha chip just a month or so ago. They had invested heavily in Linux Alpha and had made numerous promises to continue development of Alpha. Sad to see the Alpha chip go. Even sadder to see where it went.
Duh. Last I heard Red Hat's business model precluded any sort of "license revenue"! They went into the Linux business primarily to provide service and support. The GPL won't allow any Linux company to make money selling Linux licenses!
Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
Actually, Cray is doing quite well building Linux systems to augment their UNICOS line. People may want a lower-cost system, and HP should look at it that as a business opporitunity instead of a lost customer.
Click here or here.
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HP/UX has 20 years of a technical head start on Linux. HP invented Motif and pioneered much of the UNIX stuff you take for granted
VMS is not Unix. If you have ever used it before it is nothing like Unix.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Am I strange for letting that bother me?
- Jimbob
However, companies are amoral. Publically traded companies are the most amoral of all. Corporations have to make short term decisions that maximize profits for their shareholders or they can be sued. If it means buying politicians, offensively using patents, indefinetly extending copyrights, balkanizing scientific disciplines with walls of IP, or polluting the environment as much as legally possible then so be it.
Public relations departments aside, corporations don't have consciences. So yes, it's true. They can employ people and fill needs but it is not pristine good with no downside whatsover. The positive things they do are not an excuse to turn a blind eye to the horrible things they often do. Their actions bear watching and sometimes correcting. And no, "the market" does not automagically bring right and light to the world. The market IS a system with some homeostasis but these mechanisms are themselves amoral with no regard for the welfare of either corporations or individuals.
HP-UX is far to powerful for linux to take its place just yet. HP makes a ton of cash from big telcos and banking companies selling HP-UX, HP 9000 hardware, Omniback, etc. It may be a niche market, but it is a highly profitable one. It's the lousy printers and PC junk that is dragging HP down.
As much as I love linux it is not yet able to replace HP-UX in its niche, which is by far the best commercial implementaion of unix ever.
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
Solaris, HP-UX, True64 et altera would just vanquish as stand-alone systems. Instead they would offer system modules which will add value on top of the 'basic' system processes.
Just an idea...
The nice thing about Windows is: it does not just crash; it displays a nice little dialog box and let's you press 'OK'
For one, Tru64 is trash and HP/UX is archaic trash. Then again, Linux is slowly but surely turning into trash - just free trash that every bad programmer in the world can add code to, as opposed to a smaller flock of corporate programmers (who are likely better at coding than the open-source chumps who add junk to linux)...
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The EU has already said they will block the merger. Yes, they have a say in it, they stopped the GE-Semmins? merger. Then I'm not sure the U.S. will allow it. Sure IBM will still be bigger, but it really will throw the market out of kilter for Dell, Gateway, and rest. Then the customer bases of the companies aren't excited about this merger. As to Linux both companies have talked more than they have actually done.
I fear Fiorina's direction for HP. I don't see "HP embracing linux" a reality.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Ah, but soon, thanks to Yet Another Corporate Merger, we'll have another defunt company icon in the topics field. (misspellings preserved)
This probably isn't related, but I keep hearing hints that Cisco has big plans along these same lines. I can't imagine what it would be, and I don't think it's any of the rumors from the past (Cisco + Novell).
Has anyone else picked up on anything? I tried a Google search to see if there was any news out there but nothing realy turns up.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
one of the big questions in C'paqs buying Digital was what to do with DECUnix?
this problem caused major problems for the Paq management team, as did the question of what to do with the Alpha chip...i (and numerous others) predicted at the time that Paq would try to bump off the Alpha chip because of their, uh, close relationship the Redmond Krewe, they did try, the G told them, "No, noo, can't do that"
also Paq had a major (by corporate standards) revolt in the Alpha devel teams....lost mucho development talent because of the merger...
HP will face similar probs...
the high margin folk at HP only know of HPUX, and the "lure" of Linux will probably not be very great for them and their developers, Linux SMP/scalability is at least 2 years behind HPUX....
Paq has been one of M$' dependable Ben Dovers since the day, they know from nothing but WinOS and lousy customer support...any attempt to shove Linux down their throats will result in massive problems with the "True Believers" on the Compaq devel teams...
Linux WILL get a boost from this, SURE, but H'Paq will have to decide to row the boat with Blue or with M$
...for Carly it won't be an easy decision, as picking the wrong partner will prob ensure the acquisition or demise of America's Most Admired Engineering company...
OT: i still have my HP 35/45/55/67/97/41c/x/v calculators and let's not forget my fave, the 16C,they all still work like new, though a few of them be lookin real uglee and they been around the world...Good Luck, HP!
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Linux - in whatever distro is not ready to replace HP-UX. And may never be.
It's a good, nay superior replacement OS for the desktop/department server. But to replace HP-UX (or Solaris or AIX) in the data center is loopy.
Display some adaptability.
And speaking of companies and stock prices--notice that the combined price of VAL, Caldera, and RH stock reached an all-time low, closing at $4.74 today?
How about having balls and develop and MARKET a true 64 bits processor, I.e. the alpha!?
Compaq had all the ammos to fight intel and microsoft... but they didn't have the balls.
I guess HP won't do it neither since they're in bed with Intel.
The only thing that pisses me off is to see money winning again over technology, Intel's release in a year from now will be what alpha would have been a YEAR ago if it would have kept the same pace than pre-compaq. Intel really doesn't deserve ANY credits for "innovation". Maybe in 4 years from now they'll "innovate" enough to catch up with the theorical bar that alpha would have been at in the same timeframe, then again, not without stealing some alpha technology. (I mean.. licensing probably for peanuts, as we know compaq).
I remember when they had a speech with Digital Domain (special effects house) people at the Alpha Workstation launch party 2 years ago, they were claiming all the speed performance this and that, BUT NEVER would compare it to an Intel workstation (everybody knew it was HEAPLOAD faster with native apps and relatively equal speed with FX32 recompiling). They NEVER DARED touching intel's marketshare.
Anyways, no more compaq. That name brought shame and destruction to another "amiga" platform, a platform that was too much in advance for it's time, and will be copied and ripped to death for some years to come.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Who, after all, have been reduced to similar standards, recently ...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
About every cab and bus -- as well as a large number of billboards -- in the greater Boston area has a Peace/Love/Linux ad. And that's not even counting the infamous sidewalk graffiti.
Hpaq has already mentioned that to gain profitability they are going to expand their consulting roles. Linux offers a perfect solution for the combined monolith. Offer a SMB solution: hardware, OS (Linux), and consulting. For a premium price the customer can have a Novell or Microsoft product installed, but why would they when they can have the whole solution installed professionally for less than the hardware/premium OS cost?
You may think I am wrong, but what if they concentrate on niche markets like firewalls, proxy servers, print servers, etc.? Samba 2.x can extend an NT 4 enterprise increasing reliability and fault tolerance, why not capitalize on bringing Linux to the mainstream corporate market backed by the HP/Compaq names.
IBM may be embracing Linux, but I feel the HP/Compaq alliance could deploy more linux servers than IBM. The combined name recognition of Compaq and HP in the SMB and enterprise markets equates to affordable performance. IBM, in comparison is known mostly for their high price tag.
Good luck on your merger Hpaq, and I do hope you continue to support and improve Linux for everyone.
Sun, Compaq, IBM, and all the rest in one article or another said for them Linux is just a tool to get people off Windows and over to some from of Unix. Then once they have customers moved to Linux they will then start to convince them now they need to move up a their commericial Unix with enterprise features and real support. So Linux is going to move people off Windows, but then same user will be moved over to Solaris, AIX, HP/UX, Tru64.
Besides the first point.....
I think a shrinking PC market and vendor pool tends to favour Linux as well. It lessons the possibilty that a vendor will break ranks and knuckle under to MS. Microsoft cannot kick around Intel like they can the box makers especially as Linux emerges as the MS version of AMD. IBM has never been very easy for MS to manipulate and IBM services divisions are very entenched and would make life difficult. With Packard Bell and Compaq gone and an independantly minded IBM this leaves a weak Gateway and Dell besides HP. If Gateway dies then IBM, HP and Dell might be able to find common ground and reign in Microsoft on certain issues. Do I think they will live in harmony?No, but fewer box makers increases the dependence MS has on each of them.
...tells me that corporations are evil, therefore they must be.
It's HP-Compaq now.
Now don't get me wrong, I love Linux, Open Source and the like as much as the next guy, however if I had money in HP or Compaq I'd sure hope they'd ditch some of these projects. Right now they need to concentrate on what will bring in the most money the fastest. That's PCs with Windows, peripherals and their scientific equipment (which has huge mark-ups). Supporting Linux at this time IMHO is not the best use of their limited resources. They need to have clear goals (one, maybe two things), and strive to meet them. Being big is not enough.
And speaking of big. A lot is being said about HP now being number 2 behind IBM. As much as people might hope that this makes HP a threat, I just don't think so. IBM has remained pretty strong over this past year. It has a many diverse products, most of which are doing fairly well. With the time it takes HP to work out all the details of this merger and get to facing those goals IBM will have been going strong for another 3-6 months. In the mean time it will be able to corner the Linux desktop market (another reason for HP to bail).
And all this is fine with IBM. IBM is happy to support Linux because it's a sound strategy. Linux works like their mainframe OSs (well much more so than Windows does). IBM develops a lot of software to run on their "big iron", but people and companies are moving away from big machines and onto smaller servers and work stations. For this Linux is a sound choice for IBM. They don't have to spend a lot of money to port their OS to a PC architecure, it's more or less been done for them. Any enhancements they might make to help their Apps can be made through Open Source projects. JFS, Java devel, kernel devel have all come out of IBM. Not because they're being nice, but because it helps their database or some other high price App. run better. This is very sound business and has worked very well for them. I'm sure they'll continue to support Linux, as well as produce desktop PCs that compete with HP. However they have a much more sound business model, they have much more money, and when it's all said and done, I don't think they have much to worry about from HP's latest merger.
A coat? In Texas? Are you insane?
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
HPUX is not the top marketshare *nix, but it is extremely solid in a business environment. I can't envision any companies switching their multi-terabyte databases on 16-way servers to a new OS whose RAID subsystem is an absolute baby compared to the maturity and solidity of HPUX's LVM.
I won't start on clustering, failover, etc etc.
If the author had actually ever seen a large production HPUX system they wouldn't be proposing such silly things. HPUX is going to be around for a long time. HPUX 9.0 is two *major* revs down and I know of companies who are still using it due to inertia.
Call me inflammatory if you will, the naivete of this topic is causing me some inflammations which I just had to itch.
-- It is my strong belief that it is a mistake to hold strong beliefs.
Have you taken a look at the AIX toolbox(aka the additive that transforms AIX 4.3.3 to AIX5L)? This includes the official IBM blessed version of rpm as an lpp, and once rpm is installed, you can install GCC rpm's from the GNUPro directory.
Of course, since the IBM patches to gcc havent yet been rolled into the main source tree of GCC, the compilers are available as-is. But still this is a vast improvement from the Bull supplied lpp's that had to be installed in /usr/local/bin. Try it - you'll most probably be pleasantly surprised.
I havent tried building those rpm's from source, but the source is also provided (hurrah for the GPL!)
There is no such thing as luck. Luck is nothing but an absence of bad luck.
Author Sam Jaffe supposes HP will toss all the other OS's for Linux in their place?
Nope.
Sure HP's interested in Linux, but they've only shown a modicum of support for it so far.
Can you run Linux on your HP-PA workstation?
No.
Yet IBM lets you run Linux on their non-PC platform iron.
I hardly think HP's current position sounds like a ringing endorsement for Linux.
Don't get me wrong -- I run Linux for all my server needs where PC hardware can do the job. I only wish I could run it on my PA workstations and servers.
Can you say VA Research , I mean, VA Linux?...
It is much harder to figure out the fate of HPUX, however. Unlike, Tru64, HPUX was not that much of a market looser. It is only slightly behind AIX and Solaris. I'd definitely like if HPUX stayed so that there would at least two commercial Unixen around (AIX makes me shiver so I don't count it and IRIX is on the way out)
Arr, it may be redundant.
But Hewlett-Com-Packard will probably follow PriceWaterhouseCoopers' example and come up with some ridiculous combi-logo defying all aesthetic and practical logic.
Like a big string of cursive characters with random capitalizations and fonts embedded.
(Also, all our HP calculators will have to change their branding).
Time to fire up the GIMP and get cracking with a new subject logo!
The new HPaq building a strategy around Linux would be a bold and inspiring move, and might mean that they could salvage something out of this train-wreck of a merger. But it will never happen. The Beast in Redmond wouldn't like it, and a struggling PC OEM simply can't risk making the Beast angry. No, the Beast wants HPaq to generate chaos and confusion around Tru64, HP-UX, Linux and the rest and what the Beast wants, the Beast gets.
I work for Compaq. I haven't heard anything definitive, but don't expect HP/Compaq to switch entirely to Linux. Right now the enterprise group is about the only group making money for Compaq. As for HP, I am not sure. One thing I can say for sure is that Tru64/HP-UX (whatever it ends up being) will live on.
Do expect continued Linux support. One thing that will differentiate us from IBM will be our more abundant support of open standards. I know that IBM has invested a lot in Linux, but all signs that I am seeing point to us being even more supportive of open standards than IBM.
But, to expect us to drop the proprietary Unices is incredibly ridiculous.
I have a woman and money. Life is good.
HP ever since has been shouting at the top of its voice that there will be complete binary compatibility between PA-RISC and IA-64 using technology such as Aries. They have to in order to retain any customers. Binary compatibility is simply non-negotiable.
Thus HP gave away its two crown jewels, processor architecture and compiler technology, to Intel for precisely one reason--binary compatibility with what was perceived to be the potential industry-standard processor of the future. It would be to say the least rather strange for HP to walk away from this to embrace either Linux or Tru64. To do this would be to admit that HP gave away its crown jewels to Intel for nothing. (Which is actually the case since anyone from IBM to Dell etc. will be allowed to be resellers for IA-64.)
My question for those who would have HP abandon HU-UX--what's left? What exactly would HP have left as crown jewels that would distinguish its Unix offerings from the competition?
I've said this before, it was the decision to not fab the next generation of PA-RISC that decided everything for HP and nothing else. Once HP surrendered any hope of competing against Intel there was nowhere to go for increasing higher margin sales. Who exactly was going to embrace HP's future offerings when more than five years ago it was common knowledge they were transitioning to a new processor fabbed by Intel? That was the reason HP had no answer to Sun during the boom of the 1990s. Instead HP was stuck with trying to sell NT workstations and then a completely desperate move to go into selling home PCs in a bid to raise cash by any means possible. Sun on the other hand, relatively free from having to worry about what either Intel or Microsoft thought, was able to create a software business from scratch with Java. By keeping control of Java, Sun was able to leverage IBM into helping it storm into corporate business software. And all this could be done without sacrificing Solaris for Linux or any other such preposterous nonsolution.
I think HP's executives simply made a series of shocking miscalculations. In this analysis there is only mention of X86 and Power PC. There is nothing said about Sun which doesn't fab their own chips, they have instead a 13+ year partnership with Texas Instruments. Last I saw Texas Instruments' market cap was larger than either HP or Compaq, considered separately. I think it was also a miscalculation that Intel would be the only place to go for a foundry, what about IBM? (I have to wonder with the Asian nations pouring so many resources into semiconductors whether we aren't entering a rather long period of plenty of surplus manufacturing capacity. The only obstacle I see is the US government's intervention in not wanting to potentially see technology shipped abroad. At least this applies to China which the US wants to keep one or two generations behind in wafer fabrication technology.)
Lastly for those who want HP to standardize on Linux...uh, standardize on what? What exactly do you think will be the winner in say filesystems? ReiserFS, Ext3, JFS, XFS? And at least three of of those four alternatives are technology controlled by other companies. How about KDE vs. Gnome, RPM vs other packaging alternatives, PostgreSQL vs MySQL? Notice that IBM has good in-house solutions they will offer for many of these basic questions, what does HP have? I think it's going to be a hard sell to argue that the complexity of HP-UX will be easier than having to potentially support all of these alternatives.
I just find it shocking that a company the size of HP/Compaq will not think it can find the funds to either fab its own chips or pay someone other than Intel to do so. At that size IBM is able to do everything from hardware to software as well as fund a massive R&D patent-producing machine. Wny is it so hard to understand that in a world where IP is king, you better own your own stuff?
Did anyone else see the bizarre juxtaposition from the writeup: embrace Linux as the one-and-only *nix OS.
If Linux should be the "only" one, why the wildcard asterisk? Sorta reminds you that there's diversity out there, while you're trying to homogenize the image, if not the marketplace.
HPUX, Linux, Unix, BSD, IRIX, Solaris, ... they all have their reasons, their histories, their strengths, their weaknesses, their lack of support and their communities.
[
If they make a significant investment into determining what parts of their hardware and software are the best they could really have something here.
You could take the really good things about OpenVMS and the hardware it runs on, mash it with the HPUX stuff, and have a great system.
OpenVMS kicks ass in area's like processor affinity, system process queues, and stability in the software area. There new wildfire hardware is blazingly fast as well.
Take all that good hardware, the good software design and roll it all up into Linux. Nothing would stop them from doing that and then running it across the board.
You'll never have to worry about monopoly issues because of the GPL. Microsoft is able to maintain their monopoly because their code is a secret. They can kill off DRDOS by making Win3.1 not run on it, they can kill off WordPerfect by making it not run on Win95, they can blunt the advance of Lotus Notes by making it not run on Win98.
:)
None of that could ever happen with Linux because the code is open. And even if some closed-source, higher level apps on Linux become common enough to break other things, you'll still have HPaq and IBM competing with each other, so there will never be an across-the-board, monolithic monopoly as there is with Microsoft (unless HPaq & IBM merge...
Well, what do people really suggest here.
First, they hail the merge that gives us less competition on the hardware front.
Second, they suggest that all the linux flavours except linux should be dropped, also less competition.
Is that supposed to be good?
Why would Hewlett Compaq get rid of either HPUX or Tru64, two Unix OSes that consistantly push high scalability and performance benchmarks, for an OS that, well, simply sputters in the enterprise? I think you're more likely to see HPUX and Tru64 get merged into a new Unix, and have Linux binary support added to it.
No, it's like some bastard cross between MULTICS, ITS and CP/M.
;)
Doesn't mean I wouldn't like a little microVAX and a copy of OpenVMS to play with though
HP wants to be in the consumer PC business, then you're probably right. They should dump all the overhead and follow Dell. But it's a tough business and Dell is a tough competitor.
If HP wants to be in the high end, high margin consulting business, then Linux makes a lot of sense. There's no point supporting Digital Unix, Tru64, and HP-UX, especially since _none_ of these offer any real competitive advantage. (Being a little faster on certain classes of hardware or having a slightly better clusting system compared to AIX/Solaris doesn't count except in very limited markets). It makes a lot more sense to improve Linux where needed and gain access to the larger Linux market.
On the other hand, while adopting Linux across the board makes a lot of sense, it still doesn't offer a real compelling reason to use HP products. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help much either.
In the end that's the real challenge for the new HP. Finding something that they really can do better than Dell and IBM. The only thing that comes immediately to mind is printers, but that's not going to support such a massive company.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
HP won't leave HP/UX. Simply because HP has been investing a lot of cash/people in IA64 and scrapped PA/RISC. HP/UX is ported to IA64 as well. There is no reason to keep Tru64 under development, since the Alpha is scrapped too.
Conclusion: Hpaq will keep HP/UX and begin selling Linux boxen as a low-end complement.
Mikael
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
To add all of this functionality to Linux would take a long time (years and years) and so HP would rather continue to use HP-UX on their high-end servers. When Linux approaches the HP-UX level, then they might decide to re-evaluate but they would be insane to use it now.
You know, this copy/paste of this post is sooo childish.. *BSD is dying, ROFL! Looks how many 'Linux' companies are going down under. Calder too now, not to mention SuSe, VA Linux, etc.. etc.. etc...
Besides, *BSD isn't about 'money' so it's not the same as Linux. Linux is turning into the same as Micro$oft has been doing for years. What's the difference??? Are you Linux lamerz gonna say, oh, we don't like Linux now, it's become jsut as bad as M$. Well, that's what's happening and the restrictive licensing model is destroying companies... Take a look for yourself how many Linux companies are going down down down, and will continue to go down.. Thank God *BSD isn't in the same boat, all about *money* only, else it would be dying like Linux companies.
either the shareholders will block the merger or US/EU anti-trust regulators will and then HP and Compaq will look pretty dumb. And they'll still be losing money while Dell moves ahead
---
Linux is becoming commercialised just like microshit, for luzerz... It's barely free now. And Microsoft is for idiots! Face it! Linux/Microsoft suck ass! I'm taking a ride on the next boat, one without holes... I won't name the name of this superior OS, cause it'll cause an OS war and endless hurtful feelings for you linux losers missing out on a REAL OS!
Be sure to see Robert X. Cringely's column Resetting the Shot Clock: Why Hewlett Packard Buying Compaq is a Very Bad Idea, But Will Happen Anyway
Cringely's theory (and mine) is that HP CEO Carly Fiorina (Carleton S. Fiorina) realizes she is near to being fired, and she is using a merger to buy time.
Both HP and Compaq have made some monumentally stupid decisions. For example, Compaq bought Tandem, bud didn't use Tandem's sales force, even though the Tandem product required a huge amount of special service.
The biggest problem in technology is managers who don't understand what they are managing. There is a theory that a manager of a technology company does not need to have a thorough technical understanding. Decisions made based on that theory have destroyed many companies. But the problem is very poorly reported, because the reporters don't have technical understanding either.
My understanding is that Carly Fiorina is responsible for the terrible financial state of Lucent Technologies, her former company.
Bush's education improvements were
announced it might imply that they got some sort of confirmation that they would not be blocked by the regulatory agencies if they went ahead with it.
Do you mean the GE-Honeywell merger?
but let's not forget MS is not doing anything wrong
Right.
That's why they were found guilty in the antitrust trial. Oh no, they didn't do anything wrong, they were just found guilty because it makes good headlines.
Microsoft has broken more laws than your average terrorist. I could cite a couple of dozen cases here (and a lot of them more serious than what the antitrust trial was about), but the case that bothers me most is how microsoft is responsible for the demise of BeOS.
Yes, indeed. Microsoft forbids OEM's to put other OS's on PC's they sell (or otherwise the OEM's have to pay retail prices for the Windows licenses, which they can't afford in today's cutthroat market). This is a classic example of abuse of monopolistic power. Because of this Be, the company, was unable to make deals with OEM's to put BeOS as an alternative OS on people's harddrives, which could have very well provided Be with the leverage point they needed to get their product out there. It's not that no OEM's were interested, it's just that MS got wind of it and informed the OEM's that they weren't allowed to do that. No marketshare means no third party apps. As a consequence Be is gone now. Sold out. No longer in business.
Now, if that's not doing something wrong, then I don't know WHAT you mean when you say "do wrong". Would they have to kill people before you'd be against them?
And that's just one of the many situations like it were microsoft did something sneaky and unlawful. "DOS is not done till Lotus won't run" might ring a bell.
True64 might go away, but I doubt it with HP Unix.
Looking at the market from a SysAdmin position HP Unix is still very strong in the Banking Sector, heck, our companies PPV Broadcast system runs on HP Unix.
No, that is a nice daydream, they might invest / develop Linux further but they won't let go of HP Unix (at least not just yet) they have to big of a market share and I doubt that they want to leave the market completly to Sun.
Michael
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
OK, here's a strategy for Linux to take a Great Leap Forward in the HP world. What would happen if HP GPLed the code to TRU64 and HP-UX, so it could be assimilated into Linux ?
Result: you'd have a Linux that would operate on anything that HP could throw at it in 6-9 months, and there would be no denying that after Linux incorporated these changes that it was a Very Serious Operating System that can operate in the banking, financial and other feelgood sectors that mean that any purchasing manager may suggest using Linux without risking his/her career [ we all know it does anyway, but in a rather furtive manner].
HP-UX may be a nice operating system, but compared to Linux, the amount of stuff being developed for it is trivial. What does exist on these platforms howver is of excellent quality and therefore if it could be ported to Linux, both HP and Linux would benefit.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Suits me. The more applications on *nix environments the better for all us *nix developers. What real difference does it make whether companies choose Tru64, HP/UX, Solaris, Linux, Tomix, Dickix or Harrix?
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
>>> Two words: PDP port. (tech sidenote: yeah yeah, I know)
/etc/termcap ! :
t yp e dataspeed 40/2:\ :cl=160\ER:cd=160\EJ:al=160\EL:dl=160\EM:dc=50\EP: im=:ei=:ic=50\E\^:\ :nd=\EC:up=\E7:bs:cr=\EG:nl=\EG\EB:do=\EB:co#80:li #24:vb=:\
:do=^J:co#72:hc:os:
:do=^J:kb=^h:am:le=^H:bs:hc:os:co#132:
:do=^J:le=^H:bs:hc:hu=\E8:hd=\E9:up=\E7:os:
Um, which PDP? PDP-8, 11, or 15?
>>> Termcap gets an entry for "asr33".
Swipe it from Tru64's
# T: TELETYPE
#
# We need descriptions for the model 40. There are known to be at least three
# flavors of the 40, both seem more like IBM half duplex forms fillers than
# ASCII terminals. They have lots of awful braindamage, such as printing
# a visible newline indicator after each newline. The 40-1 is a half duplex
# terminal and is hopeless. The 40-2 is braindamaged but has hope and is
# described here. The 40-4 is a 3270 lookalike and beyond hope.
# The terminal has visible bell but I don't know it - it's
# null here to prevent it from showing the BL character.
# There is an \EG in nl because of a bug in vi (if stty says you have
# a "newline" style terminal (-crmode) vi figures all it needs is nl
# to get crlf, even if cr is not ^M.)
T0|40|tty40|ds40|ds40/2|ds40-2|dataspeed40|tele
:so=\E3:se=\E4:
T3|33|tty33|tty|model 33 teletype:\
T4|43|tty43|model 43 teletype:\
T7|37|tty37|model 37 teletype:\
I'm betting this will work out only a bit better than the Burroughs-Sperry merger (aka Unisys) did.
*Maybe* the sale is good for Linux, but I have to believe this is a bad thing for all other OS'es NOT Linux or MS. For many reasons Linux is NOT up to the corporate snuff that HP/UX or Tru64 is, and if they did get dropped many corporate users are either going to be screwed or will move to Solaris. Yesterday there were posts about how the appearance of a (largely irrelevant) MenuetOs was a Good Thing; now we see posts about how the possible disappearances of highly important OSes is (implicitly) also a Good Thing. Come on, let's see some consistency and rationality here: does "news for nerds" always have to mean "news mostly about Linux" ?
There's entirely too much revolutionary fervor surrounding Linux. A whole group-think collective going on. It's a fine OS, and a monumental achievement, but it wasn't written on stone tablets and handed down to Linus from God on a mountaintop in the desert. Monoculture == mediocrity.
Ever seen an HP SuperDome? The two current models will go 32-way and 64-way. The next two coming down the pipe will do 128 and 256 (processors). I can't imagine what the cost would be to get the Linux kernel to a place where it can handle that kind of hardware the way HP-UX already does.
-BK
Chemical Blog
Is this just a small HumPer?
-vert-
love the penguin
From the Inq:
The Clearest Statement that HP has made this week about the future of Tru64 Unix (D/UX), Open VMS, and the Itanic platform has appeared on a news forum at tru64.org.
based on this posting by an inforworld reporter on Tru64.org.
BOSTON SUCKS!
What the article proposes will never happen.. this is like HP and Compaq shooting each other in
the head, they will never give up HPUX or Tru64 for little shitty Linux. Both HPUX and Tru64 are years and years ahead in technologies that Linux will never have catch up. And you must be crazy to thing that any company that invested billions and years on these technologies would give them up to the open source community just like that!!Imagine an HP sales man going to a customer and telling them that they must move away from HPUX on their 64-way Superdom and go for Linux... mmm that would be a cold day in hell. Please get serious, Linux is just a toy for the big boys to play with jus to get at Microsoft, once they are done or get bored they will just toss it away:)
I love Linux and I think it's got a great future. But for HPaq to abandon Tru64, VMS, HP-UX and the legacy systems would be folly.
Those systems have an installed base of users that are willing to pay money to have working systems keep working.
Linux, OTOH, is characterized by a slew of small VC funded company carcasses that failed to grasp how to make money off this nascent OS.
If nimble little companies have failed to do so, what makes you think that a behemoth like HPaq will be able to do so?
No, the right move is for them to contribute to the growth of Linux and become recognized as a key player in that area (IBM strategy). Then, when the installed base of Linux creeps upward enough, they can sell services and specialized add-on products that will be recognized for adding value instead of adding hype and cool.
Linux is too small and growing too fast to be able to predict with any certainty which markets it will figure into most dominantly. Servers? Yes, but don't discount what random thing can come of the ferment that is the embedded market. Any Linux company (not just HPaq) should cultivate internal expertise in Linux so that they can be ready to jump when it starts to become obvious where the market is leading.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Sure, this is a feel good article for Linux advocates, but it's really depressing to look at the conclusions the fellow draws and the logic that leads to them.
That would leave Linux to revert to its original role: a revolutionary solution for serving up Web pages -- but little else.
Are you people seriously agreeing with the conclusions of they guy who wrote this? How about his assertion that no one besides Sun thinks that high-end Unix variants have a place anymore?
I had an argument...with the person here at the university that teaches OS design. I wonder when I'll learn --Linus
You make all this sound like it's somehow a bad thing...
Actually, I like some of those ideas, since I'm a bit of a retrocomputing enthusiast myself. And an ELKS port to the PDP-11 is probably doable, especially with those ancient DEC techies kicking around.
Porting ITS to modern hardware, though... go look through the ITS tech reference. I thought of doing it to learn a little about OS hacking. It frightened me.
/Brian
All you have to do is look at HP's comitment to OpenMail and you have a pretty grim outlook. HP has not qualms about killing a project that could be a compeditor to a MS product. I've been to the UK debelopment centre, I've talked to Unix Developers, they all see the writing on the wall. HP does not want to do anything that could upset MS. The enconomics of scale make selling 100 NT/2000 servers to do the job of one V Class HP-9000 Unix box far more profitable.
``TECO debs and rpms are made (if this has already happened, I don't want to know).''
Well not yet. But there are versions of TECO written in C. Any bets on whether I could get it to run under Linux in my copious spare time? Would RPMs by Christmas do?
``Somebody writes a kernel module to accept input (through serial I'd guess, not that I'm advocating this) from handmade front panel switches...''
This'd mean I could actually find something neat to do with the PDP/8 and 11/70 front panels I have down in the basement!
``Two words: PDP port. (tech sidenote: yeah yeah, I know)''
Sort of like getting back to one's roots, eh?
``Termcap gets an entry for "asr33".''
I've seen this already (on a SVR4.2 for the PC and, if memory serves, on Coherent) but not on a Linux box.
``The man page for ed(1) gets updated.''
You mean people are still making tweaks to ed?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Greetings,
HP-UX comes in two different varieties and does some things that Linux can't yet afaik. So I doubt that they'll drop it. They might drop Tru-64, and I can't think of a reason to do so.
In the past I've worked on a CMW version of HP-UX which later became VVOS. This is a highly secure (Military grade security) Operating system with capabilities and privileges and labelling of data and... I can't see HP just ditching it in favour of a version of Linux with none of those features. Can you?
HP already support some Linux development with hardware donations, so why they wouldn't continue I don't know. I would imagine that they would continue to develop and sell HP-UX. They will probably add some sort of Linux support, and I would imagine that they will ditch Tru-64...
But, I don't work for HP or Compaq, and I don't make their decisions for them. I'm probably wrong.
Z.
-- Under/Overrated is meta-moderation, and therefore is Redundant.
As for Linux dominating the *NIX world? Perish the thought. We do not need a monoculture; that's one of the biggest problems with Windows.
--Brett Glass
I've read many pages on both sites talking linux this, and linux that - even guides to install linux on your armada 7400 series!
Maybe we can hope for a strong distro coming out of this that will rival windows. The time has come people!
Redhat 7.x and Mandrake 7.x-8.x are simple enough to install and even easier to use!
HPaq... give us a distro! Give us a linux CD with that shiny new PC.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Solaris and Linux are both ELF object file formats, so linkage questions are figured out. IBM, and not just a part-time maintainer at watson labs, needs to get their act together and pay for the R&D to get decent free compiler tools on their systems. I'm sure if they paid both Codesourcery or Red Hat they could get a toolchain that attempted to solve this problem.
or AIX could just wither away....
POSIX is a lowest-common-denominator standard. All the vendors got together and documented what they had in common and called it POSIX. The parts that they don't have in common (and there are plenty of those) are undefined in POSIX, left up to vendor implementation - and every vendor does it differently.
If you have ever tried to do POSIX shared-memory with cross-platform code you know what I am talking about - Sun is very restrictive and HP is very flexible, but the two still don't overlap much in the details.
A bunch of people have mentioned IBM, which is good, because I wanted to mention it myself. But one question to ponder: is it really a good idea to go against $1 Billion of marketing, even if it's for the same OS? If you've seen Times Square, you'll know what HP-Compaq would be up against (think apartment building-sized Linux ad).
...in ASCII. :) Come on, you know someone has done it.
I've had major troubles with Compaq. They make modifications to the Windows OS. The mods sometimes have bugs. It is very difficult to get Compaq tech support to admit that the bugs are there. Once they admit to the bugs, it is very difficult to get a fix.
It doesn't take many bad experiences on the part of customers to put a company in a situation where it has to end its life with a merger. Customer bad experiences are slow suicide for a company.
Bush's education improvements were
How on earth would acquiring Novell be of strategic advantage to Cisco?
Yesterday, GlobeInvestor had an article about Cisco potentially taking over Nortel, seeing as its stock price is very low right now. Today there is an article with Nortel denying it.
Why? 2.11BSD is still under active development.
Multics or ITS joins the ranks of supported VMware guest operating systems.
Multics originally ran on GE computers, and then later on Honeywell computers after they bought GE's computer group. As for ITS, there are those of us already running ITS, TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 on top of UNIX (and for most people this means Linux).
Also, forget TECO, I want a port of EDIT/TPU for UNIX!
I think a major point to make is from here on in, they will want to push one OS for future markets.
...
'tis a shame that this is never gonna be read by many as the story has dropped off the front page. Oh well
HAHAHA!!! Ralph the sand nigger!!!!